BBC Elders Question and Answers

Bethlehem Bible Church

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well let's just start off with some questions, certainly it's easy for me to try to stump you men and that's not the purpose of it to give you a hard question to see if you know the answer because anybody can stump someone with hard questions so let me just give a couple questions right off the bat to Lewis, a couple to Dave and then a couple to Steve Lewis, what was the position of the church in the

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Middle Ages concerning tradition and authority and what was the relationship in particular between dogmatics and exegesis in this period

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Dave, what are the three families of the Levites and what were their respective duties in the tabernacle additionally what is the structural feature of the book of Numbers Steve, just a couple quick questions, set forth the development of Israel's problems and history as given in the book of first and second

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Kings and on a related note what are the main themes and content of the books of first and second

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Chronicles yes can

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I answer about Ezekiel's vision yeah that's right, alright I just wanted to try to stump them but I can't keep a straight face and so really my goal tonight is

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I want you to understand their hearts as your shepherds and how they love the Lord and God has instilled in them a love for you and so it's not really data dump tonight, it's something else alright for each of you men and can go in any order but I'd like each of you to answer the question could each of us, each of you tell us something wonderful that you've learned about God lately from your personal devotional life, study, or quiet times

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I'll go first we've been at the at the

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Bible study we've been studying R .C. Sproul's holiness of God book and I was just struck and I shared this with Mike week or two ago just in thinking about the angels specifically the seraphim in seraphim in Isaiah 6 and just thinking about how they covered their faces and we think of holiness in terms of sinlessness, in terms of perfection, well have those angels ever sinned?

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and the answer is no, so why is it then that when they're in the presence of God they have to or they do cover their faces even though they have no sin there's no reason that they being perfectly without sin could not look at God except for the fact that I think we have a vastly deficient view of the holiness of God if sinless angels will not look directly at God then how much more should we have a high view of the holiness of God and so I think our, you know to paraphrase

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Luther our thoughts of God are too human we don't think highly enough of him and specifically his holiness so that was really you know every once in a while you just read something and you just go that's really good,

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I thought that was good. For me, when

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I was in my twenties and God had saved me

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I thought that, I remember I was in the military in the army and I was 21 and listening to people who used to talk about how they have stress and they have knots in their back, they have physical issues and here

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I was at 20 and didn't have any of those things and I thought what are these people talking about and as the years have rolled on and I'm now over twice that age

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I know exactly what they were talking about because I get the knots in my back and I get the I get the just the creaking of my body and I was recently studying in 2nd

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Corinthians chapter 5 where the Apostle Paul said that we know that this earthly house of this tabernacle is dissolving and what he was saying there is that the body was made for a temporary dwelling and it's only gonna last so long and I'm witnessing it and we all are in our own lives the personal dissolving, the melting away the decaying, the corrupting of my physical body and yet the hope that is in that same scripture there is is that though this body does decay and though I do die and we all will that absent from the body means to be present with the

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Lord and that has just as again as years have gone on been so more real to me and I like the

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Apostle Paul not that I want to be unclothed not that I want to die to be to get out of this life but to be clothed upon with immortality is it going to be a wonder and we have such a hope that God has given us in the scriptures even though there's something past this life that is living in a body that's decaying it will be in an immortal body in the presence of God forever

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I actually have been reading in Ezekiel some but staying away from the from the vision right now and trying to speculate what that is all about but it struck me reading through chapters 4, 5, 6 along in there it's almost like a drumbeat that you begin to see thus saith the

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Lord thus saith the Lord as as the Lord tells Ezekiel what he's going to do because his people have not obeyed him they have gone away from him and they have done it repeatedly and so he keeps saying thus saith the

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Lord thus saith the Lord this is what I'm going to do and finally gets to the end and he says he gives the purpose of the whole thing he says and they shall know that I am the

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Lord they're gonna learn he says that I am the

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Lord and I have not said in vain what that I would do this evil unto them

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I'm not kidding says God to Ezekiel and the thought occurs to me it you know we live in we live in a time in which we have so much in terms of resources we have the completed canon of scripture and if that's not enough each of us has his own copy of the canon of scripture and we forget sometimes that men have died have literally given their lives so that you can do that and I would suspect that everyone here has probably got multiple copies of their own copy of the scripture so God gives us that God has given us the

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Holy Spirit to be our teacher and then we have all these other things that have been given men have written good books we one of them was just given away tonight and there are there are tapes and there's things on the

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Internet and it's it's a it's an embarrassment of wealth and isn't it better for us to study what

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God has to say to us and to learn what God wants to teach us and what he wants us to learn about to know about himself up to do it the easy way instead of defying him because sooner or later like God told

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Ezekiel he said you're gonna know you're gonna know I'm going you're gonna get the message sooner or later you can get it the easy way you can get the hard way and so he encourages us to learn it the easy way because he what does he say my yoke is easy and my burden is light come and learn of me come and learn good thank you man this is for each of you as well what's the most exciting thing about serving at Bethlehem Bible Church I think for for me the the most exciting thing is is that God would allow me or anybody to be able to be a part of what he's doing the

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Lord Jesus Christ said that he was going to build his church the gospel was given to us it's an entrustment to us as it says in 1st

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Thessalonians 2 for but as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel even so we speak not as pleasing men but God who tries our hearts and God is doing something and we can check out and not be a part of that or we can see what

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God is doing in the the proclamation of the gospel the saving of sinners the sanctifying of the

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Saints bringing them to a place where they're more set apart for God and equipping the

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Saints for the work of the ministry and we get and we're allowed to be a part of that and that is awesome that is exciting we don't deserve that and when

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I look at my life I I know that I'm not worthy of that and and yet that's what

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God does he saves despicable sinners and makes them Saints and his children and puts them into the to the work of the ministry and all of us get to do that together in some way shape or form our ministry utilizing our spiritual gifts together and this is the work of God it's not our church it's his and it's a it's a wonder to be able to be a part of that I would

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I would echo the same thing that the chance the chance to be a part of something that is eternal and something that is bigger than you are there's a probably apocryphal story but it's told over and over again

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Sir Christopher Wren or a man was going to to London and he came across three workmen who were working with rocks and what have you and he asked the first one he said what are you doing and he said what does it look like I'm doing

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I'm moving rocks and he asked the second man he said what are you doing sir he said

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I'm just making a living and he went to the third one and he said and what are you doing sir remember all three these men are doing the same job because the third man he says what are you doing and he says why

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I am helping Sir Christopher Wren build St. Paul's Cathedral one of those three men saw his little portion as part of something that was much larger than himself in here we get to be a part of something that is eternal that has eternal consequences to it and you know something that's that is going to go beyond it what we as human beings we seek to to what leave a legacy behind what greater legacy could you have than to have been a part of of a church witness that goes on beyond you well

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I could just say amen because that would be in keeping with the short answers we decided would be best but you know in in seeking to come up with a third or fourth or fifth best answer

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I would say there are a couple things that really strike home for me one is just being able to take things from the idea phase and implement them and see how they impact the body of Christ that's been exciting

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I think also for me personally it's exciting to be able to go from a career where maybe the that there were a set of rules that we were all supposed to abide by but it wasn't necessarily followed and to be able to come here and have a set of rules you know that we really strive to follow and that's a a great encouragement and excitement for me and I like that it's nice to be able to look forward to coming to work you know so to speak so that that's exciting now the easy answer is going to be working with me and I won't say that what's the most difficult part of being an elder at BBC?

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you thought I was saying something else I thought it was going to be good what's the most difficult part of being an elder at Bethlehem Bible Church and that might give some of the folks an idea of how they might be praying for each of you you know

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I think the most difficult thing and you know what causes me to occasionally lose a little sleep is just it's almost like in some ways it is kind of like parenting without sounding too

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I hope you know self -inflated but to see people take what they should do and not do it to know what is right and to not do that it is it's heartbreaking so I you know to answer that I think you know there are difficult circumstances that come up in people's lives but to to counsel with them to interact with them to pray with them to go through what

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God's Word says on particular issues and then to see them do something else is probably the most difficult thing for me and especially in those respects when you've seen it happen before and you can pretty much read the writing on the wall and know it's going to happen in someone's life because they're going to take the wrong turn

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I would build upon what you're saying Steve too is the

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Apostle Paul had great fears his heart was broken as he wrote to different places to the

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Galatians he says you know who is bewitched you to go away into another gospel he wrote to the

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Corinthian church and he said I covered it in the Sunday school this morning I fear for you as Eve was she by the subtlety of Satan Eve was led astray from the simplicity that's in Jesus Christ and really as a as a shepherd the greatest care that you have is for the care of the well being of the flock put it in the physical realm a shepherd has sheep his focus is the sheep to make sure they're fed to make sure they're they have the right amount of nutrients and all and when they go astray to bring them back if they're diseased to take care of those things in the church the

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Apostle Paul had such a such a heart for the people it wasn't just it just wasn't punching the clock it just wasn't

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I got it you know just some duty but it was passion and that's what I like serving with these men

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Mike and Steve and and Lewis when we get together for meetings some of them

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I mean that could have been probably the answer the question what's the worst it's the grueling you know till 1030 at night the elders meeting discussing all the issues that we do but it's necessary and and these men know that that that we must give an account of ourselves in the work that we do in overseeing the flock and I think probably one of the things that is very very difficult like Paul said in 2nd

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Corinthians 12 and in verse 15 he says I'm glad to be spent to spend to be spent for you but the more abundantly

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I love you the less I be loved to pour yourself into somebody and then for your motives to be taken like incorrectly

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I mean like you are out against people but your your heart is fully for the the well -being the spiritual and overall well -being of that person and yet it is as if you are their enemy when you tell them the truth and and you and we must press on we must do it but it's so difficult humanly speaking when it comes back and you're in your motives are torn to shreds and misinterpreted when it's totally opposite what you're trying to do you try to love somebody enough to help them and tell them the truth and I would have to agree with both of these that's it is so difficult and it is to a certain extent like raising your children where you have instructed them in the way that they should go and try to warn them about the things that will befall them if they don't go the way that you have that you have instructed them and yet you know they're gone in some other direction and while you would if you could pull them back and prevent that you can't because they're bound and determined and so that is hard and it is it is very difficult it is not difficult to have someone disagree with you

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I mean that's not a problem but to have someone question your motives to somehow assign to you the exact opposite motivation than what you have alright thank you man this is for each of you as well tell me why you love your wives we're supposed to have short answers oh

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I'm not kidding that that is a question that cannot be answered in a short period of time

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I will say this I was asked one time did

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I have any clue when I asked Dallas to marry me what what she would turn into the woman of God the powerful woman of God that she would become and the answer to that is no in fact

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I wasn't even considering that I say that to my to my shame at the time but I wasn't but I will say this man that trust

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God you can trust God to give you the wife that he wants you to have because it's been said before but it's it sounds a little trite maybe but I can guarantee you that if I took a poll in here a lot of the guys in this room are praising

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God that he did not allow them to marry the first person he thought they thought they were in love with and so you know

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God has single men God has the woman for you set aside he knows who she is he will lead you to her in his time and ladies

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I would say the same thing God has your spouse all picked out knows who it is

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I would encourage you to pray for that individual but no

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I I thank God daily for the woman that he gave me he that finds a wife finds a good thing the proverb tells us and obtains favor of the

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Lord I would say that I that I love my wife because she's the one that God gave me she's a gift from God special you hear people say you know that that that saying in the world you know behind every great man is a great woman biblically that is correct because she is my compliment

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I would not be the person that I am I have very rough edges I might come across smiling and polished in some ways and some of those things

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I can attribute to how the Lord is used to help me to see who

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I really am things that I don't pick out myself and that's a whole idea a tremendous servant of the

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Lord we've known each other since she was 15 and I was 16 and God has saved us through all of that and knit our hearts together and I got

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I got a treasure when I got her and the Lord was good well

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I would just I would echo what my brothers have said you better he wants to go home tonight you know just a couple things as I do think about my wife from time to time that's good

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I would just say this my wife is and I've said this to her and I've said this to my kids she is the best person that I know without exception there's nobody

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I'd rather have in my corner because if I didn't have her in my corner to use the boxing analogy

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I couldn't get up off the stool and she is she is just grown by leaps and bounds from somebody who is very timid and wanted to work behind the scenes to somebody who is a little more outspoken and wants to work behind the scenes but she's such a godly woman and just such a treasure and she's so wise

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I'm just very very thankful for her okay now maybe a little more specific this one is just to Louis how should the

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Christian church assess the whole Da Vinci Code hype what would be the proper assessment we should have as a congregation to what's going on I would say for anything of that sort first of all anything that comes out like this where someone is saying we've discovered new new information whatever you can count on it that it isn't new that it's been around before somebody's come up with this idea before that's one thing that studying church history will teach you is that all of these heresies have popped up before time secondly keep in mind that anything that comes from man's mind is tainted whether or not it specifically has an anti -god agenda or not nonetheless we are all tainted by our fallen nature and the fact that we live in a fallen world and so as the

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Bible says you don't have need you don't have any need for men to teach you and that doesn't mean we don't need a pastor it means you don't need man's philosophies, man's ideas, man's thoughts on anything like this and as far as the hype goes that will pass like everything else should you take this on mount your trustee's steed and take your lance in hand and go forth there's no point in tilting with windmills there's no point to it and so preach the gospel what is your response to this?

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Preach the word it sounds simplistic but that's the answer preach the word the

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Bible says well Dan Brown says this or that well so what?

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The Bible says and on and on that's the answer to any of these things because it's the

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Da Vinci code today and it'll be something else tomorrow and something else the day after that because Satan constantly comes up with his counterfeits whatever the truth is,

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Satan's got something to counter that which is in some cases actually the Da Vinci code is not too hard to deal with because it's so far off the track it's the subtle ones that are more difficult to work on where it's just a little bit of error that's sometimes harder to combat than things that are just wacko this whole idea of hidden text they say well we took the text of the

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Bible we ran it through a computer and it comes up with these messages well I'll tell you something, you can take any book and do the same thing and you will come up with hidden messages because that's just there are certain patterns to languages and the patterns in which letters are used and all that kind of thing, you can do that to anything and it doesn't mean anything you might as well take

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Moby Dick and find hidden messages in that they have about the same validity they've done that don't be concerned about this don't be shaken to think that oh something's come up that God hasn't thought about God knew all about this there's not a divine committee in heaven wondering what to do about the

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Da Vinci code God's in control of all of this He's sovereign,

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He's controlling all of it He can deal with it He really can

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Can I just add a little something to that? No I was just going to say it really could open up some opportunities for evangelism because what people are getting in the

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Da Vinci code is kind of the anti -gospel and so it's kind of like you've seen the movie or you've read the book or what have you how would you like to know the truth?

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So that would be kind of the approach you could take Good, this one's for Steve especially in light of you being an ex -Mormon and an ex -Mormon elder if Mitt Romney is the

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Republican candidate for president in 2008 should we, the church, rally behind Mitt since he is not a

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Democrat and try to get him elected in any way shape or form? Our agenda is redemptive we don't and that's the simple fact

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I could wax political here for quite some time and to me it's not an issue of if he runs for president which certainly it looks like he's going to the question of his religion is going to come up he's going to say

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I'm a Christian there are all kinds of things there what's the difference between voting for Mitt Romney and voting for how many other presidents have we had that weren't

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Christians almost all of them so I think it's just up to every individual when they go into that ballot box it's not a question of whether there's an

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R or a D next to the name the question is how do you glorify God with your vote that's always the question whose stances on the issues are more in keeping with what the

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Bible says regardless of whether they love Christ or not we can't count on the government to save us we can't count on the government

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Mitt Romney or anybody else to make this a better place our job is not to be our purpose here for being here is not to be consumed by political things

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I find them fascinating but we're not going to save one soul by either rallying behind Mitt Romney or carrying signs in the streets saying he's part of a false cult it really makes no difference good thank you

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Dave we alluded to this a little bit earlier but how could the congregation best pray for the elders well the first thing would be to pray for the elders and to have it to be part of your daily concern because we are in need of wisdom we're in need of direction from the

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Lord and I guess ways that you could pray would be first as I've mentioned wisdom that we would receive wisdom from on high wisdom beyond our years wisdom to be able to make the right decisions in overseeing the flock because we have the great responsibility to do that, to care for your souls and if we're in the position

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God has put us in the position to teach to lead, to guide, to direct, to protect to warn, to discipline, to encourage

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I would think that you would want men in that position that are wise and are godly and are strengthened, know the scriptures spiritual men, grounded, founded men standing on a good foundation holding to the word of God and much of that comes by your prayers definitely need it pray for us that we would not disqualify ourselves in any way, shape or form the world that we live in the mission of the church is redemptive the early apostles

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I think in Acts chapter 2 when Peter was preaching he didn't say clean up the world he didn't raise the banners and pickets make the world a better place his message was save yourselves from this perverse generation from this twisted world in which we live the message is to flee from sin and to flee to Christ and be saved from the world from this crooked world with all of the voices, with all of the temptations with all of the attacks that come from the wicked one where best to attack than leadership pray for us that we would not fall, that we would not fail that we would go on, we would not disqualify ourselves in any way shape or form and then for wisdom not to fail and then thirdly that we would be men who under the direction of the

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Holy Spirit would know which way to lead, which way to go in the church what good decisions to make spiritually in ministry, in people's lives the answering of questions, the counseling that we would just be guided by the

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Lord in such a way that in all that we do and say it is focused, it is not man centered it is

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God centered and it is done in such a way that it truly brings honor and glory to Jesus Christ and you are a part of that and part of that is by praying okay this one is for Louis, thanks

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Dave what would you say to men at the church who desire to be elders what advice would you give them find something else to do laughter seriously first of all you study you study the passage in 1

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Timothy where the requirements for elders are laid out and the first reaction you should have to that is that I can never meet these requirements and that is probably the first reaction

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I would look for because anyone who thinks they are qualified to be an elder, red flags start to go up at that point and the second thing the second thing

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I would point out about that is that while it is true that we believe at this church that certain offices in the church are given to men only, namely the pastorate and the eldership

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I would point out to everyone, men and women alike there is nothing in the scripture that prevents you from trying to live your life to the elder qualification ladies you can look at that you can say

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I want to conduct my life along those lines so you can do that I would also and I have said this before if you were ever considered to be for elder and you were turned down men for whatever reason and you don't feel a sense of relief you seriously don't understand the requirements of the job on the other hand on a positive note

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I would say that the Bible does encourage they say that someone who seeks the office you are seeking a good thing and if God has called you to that then there is no other job that you should have and it should be your desire to serve in the place that God puts you and if that is to be an elder in the church that is a very high calling but it is on the same level as the calling to the pastorate it is one of those jobs that if you are not called to it do not attempt to carry it out but if you are then do everything in your power to prepare yourself for that mission when it does come and in the early days that will be a lot of study a lot of being in the word to begin to prepare yourself because think about what you are going to be called to do you are going to be called to be an overseer of the spiritual welfare of a flock somewhere and so begin to prepare yourself for that Thank you

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Dave, how convinced are you of the sovereignty of God how does it affect your ministry and day to day living in other words is what people call

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Calvinism is that very practical well whatever you want to call it if it is

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Calvinism yes it is very practical I will put it this way I will give you my personal testimony when

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God saved my wife and I we were in an Arminian background which was basically an easy believism don't preach repentance when you talk to people the lordship of Christ is not important when it comes to giving the gospel to somebody that may happen later and when it comes to salvation basically you must believe you have faith and you must exercise that faith and really it is kind of like it is not all of God that is basically where the background was in about 1980ish my wife and I were reading different books but basically a friend of mine said why don't you read

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Romans chapter 9 and Romans chapter 11 and tell me what you think about God's hand or God's control because I always had thought and went this way as a

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Christian that God was sovereign in creation he is, he created who he wants and the world the way he wants and puts the stars where he wants and the winds and the currents check,

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I can agree with that God is sovereign when it comes to nations when it comes to rulers he puts down one, he sets up another check,

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God is sovereign there God is sovereign when it comes to your personal life as far as where you are born, who your parents are he knows all of that, check,

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I understand that but when it comes to being sovereign in salvation it is a completely different story folks really have a hard time with that and I struggle with that in a measure because of what

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I had previously been taught but the thing was that all that I read in Romans 9 and 11 in the different books

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I was looking at I said this is what the church I was attending is teaching as far as the lack of the sovereignty of God not a high view of God and this is what happened in my life and it was completely at odds with what the church was teaching and I began to see in the scriptures that God is in the heavens and he does do whatever he pleases that when it comes to creation when it comes to nations, when it comes to the weather when it comes to salvation he saves whom he will and how is it practical?

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I've said this before when God gave an understanding of his supreme authority his sovereignty that he answers to no one and that he does what he pleases whenever and however with his creation it was almost like I was saved all over again don't take it wrong,

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I was saved already but it was like a whole new perspective of living opened up because I prayed differently

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I evangelized differently before there was a pressure for me to get people convinced that they needed to trust

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Christ when I prayed it was more focused on me and not the glory of God and what God was doing when it came to ministry it was more of a duty for me to have to do this, that and the other thing because I had a big burden and I had a responsibility a complete rest that God was going to save whom he would that God was going to do in people's lives what he would and it would be very well, he would make no mistakes and the

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Lord used a couple of instances in my life to bring us to the place to teach us that personally, but very practical and should we look down upon people who do not embrace the doctrines of grace or Calvinism how you want to put it, absolutely not it's in God's timing to teach people these truths of the scripture and just be patient and love them and live before them and just share those things about how practical it is in your life it just helps you to see life and living and serving and ministry and worship and all in a whole different, completely different and new and refreshing and wonderful way because it is such a high view of the

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Lord Good, thanks. And then one last question men, this one's just for Steve before we go to the

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Lord's table. This question was given last quarter for the elders Q &A and it was the only question given and we didn't answer it and so I can't remember the exact question but it had something to do with the sovereignty of God and then marrying unbelievers and I think maybe the question was maybe why would

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God allow someone to marry an unbeliever if he's sovereign or something along those lines so I can't remember but we only got one question

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I want to make sure we at least addressed it in some way, shape or form. So Steve, would you talk about that?

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Well if we understand God's sovereignty correctly, he commands things he orchestrates things, he designs things but sometimes this won't be hard for us to believe because I think we've all experienced this, we act counter to the word of God God says that we ought to not be yoked in any kind of spiritual endeavor with an unbeliever and yet we do that and the application is often made of being unequally yoked with an unbeliever and it has to do with spiritual enterprises and I don't know of many enterprises that are more spiritually organized or more spiritually centered than marriage.

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A marriage that is not founded on Christ is going to have a lot of trouble so the question then becomes what we began talking about what is the hardest thing to see in ministry and that's for somebody to take the clear teaching of the

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Bible for example, if you don't want to marry an unbeliever don't date an unbeliever you know, and I don't mean to sound cold but there are people who don't know that someone is an unbeliever and so they get involved with them, maybe they even marry them and then they find out later on that the person is not an unbeliever, what do you do then?

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Well you can't divorce them unless they commit adultery Jesus says that in Matthew 5,

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Matthew 19 so then what do you do? Well 1 Peter 3 would tell believing wives of unbelieving husbands that they need to submit to them that they need to be obedient without a word that they need to, in other words, set an example for him of submission that they need to be faithful to the word of God now let's take the other side of this basically

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I would say to anybody that I mean I've seen actually seen missionary dating work where somebody has dated an unbeliever, the unbeliever got saved and those people have gotten married but that is such a small percentage the overwhelming testimony would be sadness, of heartache of false professions of professions made to gain the trust and favor of the person they were dating and then from the point of the marriage forward there is no life of living for Christ and so we would counsel anyone who's thinking about marriage or even of dating, hey

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I'm thinking about dating this girl and she's never really been to church and she doesn't know anything about the

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Bible but I kind of think she's interested, well great, why don't you bring her to church on Sunday and she can meet

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Dallas, she can meet Janet, she can meet some of the ladies here who can get to know her and teach her the word of God and we'll see her get saved and a year or two from now you guys can start dating people don't want to hear that,

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I think the problem is too often even as believers we run our lives on our emotions and not on what the

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Bible says, if the Bible says clearly don't do these things and we do them, why would we expect anything but bad results how can

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God allow that God allows his children to make a lot of stupid decisions we sin often, frequently some of those sins have lasting effects, some of those sins, are we forgiven for them, yes but there are consequences that may last even a lifetime so we certainly would not want that sort of thing to happen

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I'm trying to think if there's anything else I should address or if I've filibustered long enough How about commanded will versus revealed will

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God says do this, don't do that but how do we know that we've married the right person

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I guess would be part of the question and we know that we've married the right person because we've married them even if we look at Romans 8 .28

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God causes some things for good to those who love

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God and are called according to his purpose he causes all things except for bad marriages no, it's all things even things that seem horrible, that seem unbearable, that seem a burden an oppression every single day of our lives

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God is using that to shape us to mold us into exactly the person that he wants us to be

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I don't know of a greater encouragement than that even if you may have made a mistake even if you married the wrong person according to what you might think

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A, you've married the right person because that's exactly what God designed for you B, God is going to use that for your good so I don't know of any better promise than that that God uses all things all things work together for good to those who love

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God to those who are called according to his purpose so his commanded will would be be separate, don't marry unbelievers his revealed will would be you've married that person, now obey what the

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Bible says with regard to your situation ok good, well