April 14, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now, with today's topic, here is

James White. Hello, hello, hello. Well, that sounds a whole lot better than it did before. The Jesuits did manage to infiltrate the many layers of security that we have here at our massive complex out in the woods of Montana.

Actually the phantom power died. You know, those boards, I ain't impressed,

I'm sorry, but I've been a sound man before and I've never had entire channels just die with the regularity that we've had on those sound boards.

So I'm afraid I'm not going to be advertising for those folks anytime soon. Well, welcome to The Dividing Line.

If you're tuning in and expecting Marty Minto to join us, check the blog. Marty called me earlier, but unfortunately mis -dialed the number.

The guy is running around like a chicken with his head cut off today since the AP picked up his story and now he's everywhere.

He may even be getting a chance to do Handy and Combs, which would be great, it really would be.

But he was saying, can we do it maybe a little bit later? We almost end up having to do it later simply for computer problems, but I said let's just do it on Tuesday and that way, you know, we'll let a little bit of this die down.

And some of you may recall, Marty Minto, I was filling in for Marty when

I did the program with Dave Hunt on Calvinism. That was about 90 days before the first manuscript of What Love Is This started floating around.

And beyond that, that's also the program we were on with Marty Minto as the moderator of a debate.

Jeff Neal and I, Pastor Jeff Neal and I, debated a homosexual pastor, quote unquote, and one of his parishioners from a local homosexual church.

And that ended up leading directly to the two things, the writing and publishing of the same -sex controversy, and the debate with Barry Lynn on the subject of homosexuality.

So I don't know how many times I was on with Marty Minto. We talked about the

Potter's Freedom there, he's the one that was involved with the trying to get Norman Geisser on, Norman Geisser wouldn't come on his program without all these conditions and all the rest of this stuff.

So I've known Marty for quite some time, and I can guarantee you Phoenix Radio has not been the same since he left, as far as having really exciting stuff to listen to.

And so anyway, first thing, as soon as I get into the office this morning, all the discussions about Marty Minto being let go,

I'm going to read you the story from the Tribune Review, Pittsburgh Tribune Review, dated today.

Pittsburgh talk radio host Marty Minto says he spent most of his time on the air last week doing what he always does, discussing current events from the perspective of an evangelical

Christian. Following a week's worth of conversation at his Word 101 .5 FM show, they questioned whether Pope John Paul II's Roman Catholic beliefs could be an impediment to entering heaven.

Station management pulled the plug. Minto was fired Friday, ending a three -year stint as host of the radio station's only locally produced show, which aired from 3 to 6 p .m.

on weekdays. I was called into the office after my show Friday and told that I was being let go because I was alienating the listeners, said

Minto, 39, of Newcastle, Lawrence County, who previously did talk radio shows in Albany, New York, Phoenix, that was

KPXQ, by the way, and Denver. Minto also is senior pastor of the 100 -member Turning Point Community Church in Newcastle.

As far as I'm concerned, I was doing what I've always done on the radio, looking at events around the world from a biblical perspective, said

Minto. I've always been willing to talk about controversial subjects. Chuck Gratner, general manager of Word FM for the past 14 years, said the station does not dispute

Minto's account of events. We ended our relationship with him because of differences in how we conducted his show,

Gratner said. Word FM needs to function in this city in support of the entire church.

That means everybody, and not focus on denominational issues, he said. Minto's time slot is being filled on an interim basis by Chris Budda, who did the show before Minto was hired.

We are currently examining what would be the best use of that time slot, Gratner said. No decisions have been made.

During the week in which the news was dominated by the death and funeral of the Pope, Minto discussed with callers

John Paul II's deep devotion to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Catholic beliefs such as purgatory.

I made it clear that the discussion was not an attack on the character of the Pope, but rather a look at the teachings, not only of John Paul, but the

Catholic Church in general, Minto said. Minto said he responded to a question about whether the Pope would go to heaven with the belief held by many evangelical

Christians that a person must be a born again believer. I said the question of whether a person is born again is something personal, something between an individual and the creator,

Minto said. I believe it was a legitimate topic to discuss. Now this is interesting. Listen to this.

The Reverend Ron Langwin, spokesman for the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh, said the diocese did not complain to Word FM regarding Minto's show.

He said station management contacted the diocese to say that Minto had been fired.

Word FM and its sister station WPIT -730AM are owned by Camarillo, California -based

Salem Communications which owns 95 Christian -oriented stations in the

United States. And so there you have the story. We discussed the

Roman Catholic controversy when I was on with Marty on his program more than once. I think,

I was trying to think this afternoon if we ever did any debates with a Roman Catholic apologist.

I think we did. I think we had some genesis on at one point, now that I think about it.

So we actually did some Roman Catholic debates. We had both sides on. I filled in for Marty at least four times that I can think of where I actually did his program.

Maybe more than that. I think there was a time when he was gone for a while. And so that's, you know, what can

I, yeah, in fact I forgot about that. He went out to the Mesa Easter pageant and we did, he did his program from right across the street at the

Arby's. Boy, the folks at Arby's take some heat for that. But at the Arby's across the street from the

LDS Temple in Mesa during the Mesa Easter pageant.

And boy, he'd get the hackles up on a few folks there. But if he hadn't done that, we never would have met

Warren. So that was a good thing. So anyway, obviously

Marty continued being Marty when he went to Pittsburgh. And one thing that's very, very obvious, well, let me tie this together with something that happened to me this afternoon.

I am working on, desperately working on, an article of the Reformed Baptist Theological Review on the subject of textual criticism and preaching.

And I'm sure that sounds totally, you know, absolutely exciting to everybody.

But it's a slow job because it's very difficult to address textual critical issues quickly.

Even just typing textual critical material takes a long time. You're superscripting stuff and you're changing language fonts and your special characters and all the rest of the stuff.

And anyway, one of the translations that I was discussing, I didn't own.

I had it electronically, but the problem is, electronic versions of various translations will frequently look different than the published or the printed version.

And so last night, Mutato in the channel and Dr. Keith and a few other folks were helping me because they had this translation.

But still, I needed to check it out for myself. I needed to do a little first -hand research here. So I had to run up to a

Christian bookstore and buy this particular translation. I needed to have one anyway. And so I went to Berean Christian Bookstore, which used to be down near Grand Canyon College.

Now it's way up farther north and they're going to be moving again because it looks like that entire strip mall is being torn down and replaced with who knows what.

And anyway, I found what I was looking for. I'm standing in line and I look down and at the table that they've put to, you know, sort of last chance to get somebody to buy something.

OK. Here's the table. In the line, you're waiting to get to the register. Guess who's smiling back at me from the table?

Yes, you're right. Pope John Paul II. There are three books and the sad thing is

I can tell there had been a whole stack of them and they were all gone. But there were three books, picture books, sort of like table talk, tabletop books, coffee table type books.

Picture books of John Paul's life and John Paul's prayers. On the back of one of them was this sweet little picture of a little kid in his arms and you can't see his face, but the little kid's smiling at you and it's just all meant to make you feel really warm and fuzzy and, you know, all the rest of that stuff.

And I'm just staring at this. And I put the two together, folks, the very same reason that there were

John Paul books sitting there that had sold at Bree and Christian bookstore is why

Marty Minto was fired from a Salem station. It's called money, M -O -N -E -Y, and Roman Catholics have it.

And so you want to make sure that you don't alienate.

That's why that's why the management called the diocese to let them know, hey, I want you to know we canned that guy.

That's why they did it is to make sure that there's no bad blood there. There's no offense there.

You know, the management's not offended by what Rome teaches because that's theology and that's irrelevant in the radio biz.

OK, so that's that's what's going on here today, folks.

The Reformation. The Reformation that allows

Word FM to choose its programs, because remember what things were like before the

Reformation? Remember I've mentioned the gambit that Erasmus took? Remember I've told this story?

That's not how you spell compromise, by the way. I've told this story. Remember, Erasmus wanted to be the first person to print and publish the

Greek New Testament, and he already knew that Cardinal Jimenez had published, not published, printed a beautiful edition, multifolio edition of the

Greek New Testament. And it hadn't been published yet. So wouldn't you think, well, why would you even bother?

Someone's already printed it. Why hadn't they published it? Because before the Reformation, folks,

Rome controlled everything that was published. If you wanted to publish a book that had to do with anything religious at all, you had to get the permission of the

Vatican. You had to run it through Rome, all right? And so Cardinal Jimenez's beautiful edition was waiting for papal approval.

So what Erasmus did is once he got his ready to go, and it was moving, he was moving at high speed, and that's why there's all the errors in the

Book of Revelation, in what's called the TR today, because the fact that, you know, he was trying to get it done way too quickly, and he only had one manuscript of the

Book of Revelation that he borrowed from his friend Johannes Reuchlin, and the last page had fallen off, and so he translated from Latin into Greek for a number of the verses, created all sorts of wacky readings that are still in the

King James today. Anyway, he rushes through all that stuff, they print it, and they publish it without Vatican approval.

Now, what kept him from being tied to a stake and turned into a fireball?

He dedicated his edition to Pope Leo X in Rome.

That's how he tried to get around, and it worked. He beat Cardinal Jimenez to the punch.

But you see, that's what people had to worry about. If there had been no Reformation, Word FM would only be able to put into existence, or put on the air, shall we say, put on the air what the

Vatican said he could put on the air. And you say, ah, come on, something would have changed eventually.

All I'm telling you is the reason that people started having the freedom to do otherwise is called the

Reformation, okay? The Protestant Reformation. And all

Marty Minto was doing was doing what I've done, and that is saying, excuse me, folks, there's something wrong here.

There's something really, really, really wrong here. We're watching television, and everybody and their second cousin is showing up on Fox News and CNN, and they have just simply ushered the

Pope into heaven. And what that means is they believe that the

Roman Catholic Gospel saves. Whatever that is, the Roman Catholic Gospel saves. They don't seem to care that Rome has anathematized the

Gospel they supposedly believe in. They don't seem to care that Rome has added so many things to the

Gospels to make the Judaizers in Galatia look like amateurs. And so they've demonstrated either they have no idea what was going on in the

Reformation at all, or they don't care. They know, but they don't care. They don't believe it anymore.

Now, there's all sorts of folks who don't believe it anymore. There's no question about that. There's all sorts of denominations that have gone liberal, and they don't believe this stuff is relevant anymore, and the

Reformation is all a big mistake. No question about that. And then you've got the postmodernists and the emergent church and all the rest of the stuff, and the quote -unquote reformed

Catholics, and they're all going whichever direction. None of them can tell you what truth is. They can't tell you what the Gospel is anymore.

All that stuff. We knew all of that, but here you get the clear, I think, the clearest picture we have gotten in our generation of the fact that evangelicalism isn't.

We need to take the term evangelical back. It has been prostituted.

It's been stolen from us. Even the Evangel is the Gospel. But if the

Gospel is no longer knowable, if you can't tell me what the Gospel is, if you can't tell me what the

Gospel isn't, then please stop calling yourself an evangelical. If you think the

Evangel is just have warm feelings about Jesus, you are not an evangelical.

Okay? I'm going to start calling you neo -evangelicals, pseudo -evangelicals, whatever you want to say, but the fact of the matter is, you are not an evangelical.

If you can't proclaim the Gospel and say, this is the truth, this is the power of God and the salvation, this is what you must bow the knee to, if you don't think you can know it, if you think it's been lost, if you think it's just the name

Jesus without any explanation of who he is or what he's done or anything else, you are not an evangelical.

Stop calling yourself that. Okay? You know the sad fact of the matter is, I bet you anything, more than half the people who would actually identify themselves as evangelical don't even know what the word means.

They don't know what the Evangel is. They have no concept. No idea at all.

And that's what happens, folks, when you stop preaching the word exegetically from the pulpit, when you stop teaching the word of God, when you stop teaching it in the

Sunday school or the Bible study class, when you stop teaching it from the pulpit, when you start entertaining people and dragging them in with your musical program, afraid to offend them, this is what is going to happen.

When you stop trusting the Holy Spirit of God to build his church, you're going to end up with a church that is nothing but a facade.

What has happened since the death of Pope John Paul II has demonstrated to us that what the church is, in our day and age, the external church, what we see around us in so many situations, is just like when you take that bus ride through Universal Studios, and when you're going down the middle of the street, it looks like you're in an old western town, or it looks like you're in Manhattan, or it looks like you're in Italy, but then you go around the corner and you find out it's all fake.

It's just a facade. There's no substance. There's nothing there. Well, what the death of Pope John Paul II has done is it's taken us around the corner, and we can see these huge buildings with lots and lots of people, but no gospel, no substance, no foundation.

There's nothing there. And if people can so easily abandon the gospel and throw it out in a situation like this, just so that, you know,

I don't want people to think badly of me. I don't want everybody to like me. If they'll do that now, what happens when real persecution comes?

What happens when to walk through the door of your church on Sunday morning means that your tax is double?

How many people are going to show up? That's when you find out where the real church is, and that means, well, you figure out what that means for this nation and for Western culture as a whole.

Absolutely amazing. I'm writing an open letter to Word FM, and I just wish

I had more time, because I still got to write this paper. I just still got to do it. 877 -753 -3341.

My goodness, is it 24? Well, we got four minutes. That's only 20 after, really. Sort of, in the sense of, as far as the program's concerned.

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. If you would like to comment. Oh, I need to finish the story.

Make sure you mark it down. Marty is going to do his best to be with us Tuesday morning at 11 o 'clock our time.

That's 2 p .m. Eastern Daylight Time, 11 a .m. Pacific Daylight Time.

We will get a chance to talk to him, and it's going to be fun, because most of the time, I was on the other side of the microphone from Marty.

I was the one being interviewed. This time, I will be doing the interviewing, though something tells me I might possibly sort of start doing a little preaching and things like that in the process.

877 -753 -3341. I only have one caller at the moment. We filled up the lines last time, and I know when

I start off preaching, that doesn't help get people to call.

I know that, but that's just the way we do things around here. 877 -753 -3341.

I need to go ahead and get to our first caller, because he's calling all the way from Hawaii.

Hello, Mike. How are you? Hello. Hi, Dr. White. How are you, sir? Fine. I'll bet you it's somewhere between 72 and 86 degrees where you are.

You're right. Closer to the 86, I think. Yeah, I bet.

Does it stay pretty much right around upper 70s, lower 80s, right? In the summer, it will get up close to 90, but rarely.

Anyway, well, you know, you also have to worry about hurricanes, so I guess that's the one change there.

What can we do for you, Mike? Well, as you know, Catholics teach that there are three possibilities upon a person's death, and I think we would agree that purgatory is not true.

You and I hopefully would agree with that, yes. And the other two possibilities, one, that the

Pope's immortal soul would be in hell right now, or that his immortal soul is in heaven.

Right. And I would like to read, if I may, seven verses from the

King James. Well, if you want to use the King James. I will let them speak for themselves. First would be

Ecclesiastes, chapter 9, verses 5 and 6.

All right. For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything.

Neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished.

Neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.

Next would be Psalm 146, 3 and 4. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the

Son of Man, in whom there is no help. His breath goes forth, he returneth to his earth.

In that day, in that very day, his thoughts perish. Next would be

Psalm 115, 17. The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

And in the New Testament then, James 4, 14. Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow, for what is your life?

It is even a vapor that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. And then the last verse would be

Genesis 3, verse 4. And the serpent said to the woman, you shall not surely die.

Did the serpent tell the truth or not? I propose to you that the

Pope is neither in heaven or purgatory, or in what Catholics would call hell, that the

Pope is unconscious, asleep in his grave. I see. Well, there's a little problem with that.

And I noticed as soon as you went to Ecclesiastes 9, I was going to say now, need to be careful, Ecclesiastes is talking about from the earthly viewpoint.

But then when you went to the others, I could tell where you were going eventually. Yeah, I figured you would. Yeah, yeah. The problem there is the fact that Paul teaches that to be absent from the body is to be at home with the

Lord. He also teaches, Peter taught us that the Lord knows how to keep under punishment those who are awaiting the day of judgment.

That punishment is an ongoing thing. It's not just simply a promise of a future situation.

And the idea of mere unconsciousness would also have some problems with those martyrs in the book of Revelation.

I can at least see how some people might argue for the wicked, even though Peter has a problem with that, but certainly for the righteous, there is immediately the presence of Christ.

And so I am aware of the arguments that you'd be putting forth. The problem is, would you be coming from a

Seventh -day Adventist perspective? Absolutely. I see, yeah. Absolutely. Well, you know, this particular issue would be one that we would certainly disagree on, but far more importantly to me, would you be one of those

Seventh -day Adventists that would hold to the investigative judgment? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, see, I would put that as being as false a gospel as Rome's, personally.

I don't see any difference between the investigative judgment and the grounds that that places one's relationship to God on and what

Rome teaches. I really didn't call to discuss the investigative judgment, although I would be happy to if you wanted to.

Well, my point was, and I didn't comment on the verses, I let them speak for themselves, and I think they're very clear that when a person dies, his thoughts perish.

From the earth. There is no conscious immortal soul that goes to heaven or to hell. You just read something in there that your first comment was correct, your second comment demonstrated a tradition that then tries to tie these things together.

That's where the difference is. For example, in Ecclesiastes chapter 9, there's many things said in Ecclesiastes concerning all is vanity.

Well, okay, in a particular context on earth, we understand what's being said there, but you certainly are not going to take that to mean that there is nothing that has meaning in this life.

So you're doing the same thing and trying to say, well, their memory is gone from this earth.

They no longer have any interaction on this earth. I would agree completely. That doesn't mean, however... In verse 6, their love, their hatred, their envy is now perished.

In verse 5, it's saying that their memory is forgotten. In other words, their memory has perished. In other words, their consciousness is gone.

No, no, no, no, no, no. You see, you're reading that into it. This is on the earth.

In the very day his thoughts perish. This is on the earth. On the earth, yes.

But you have to allow the rest of scripture to speak. What are the shades in Isaiah 12 and 14?

What are they doing when the spirits of these wicked kings comes to them?

Who are these things? How do they know this is a king? There's clearly conscious existence at that point.

And the fact of the matter is, there are a number of passages in the New Testament that say otherwise. But the reason that I went to the issue in asking you where you're coming from is because I tend to think that, unfortunately, a lot of these discussions, especially with a believing, conservative

Seventh -day Adventist, misses the point. Because, to me,

I could sit around and talk with a Roman Catholic about, oh, let's say, papal infallibility.

Which we've done. And that's important. It speaks to issues of authority. That would sort of be like talking to you about the claims that Ellen G.

White made concerning her prophecies and her writings in relation to Scripture and things like that.

But, if that's all I ever discussed, I'm not doing you any favor. Because the real issue, and the issue

I always get to with Roman Catholics, is the issue of what the Gospel is. What is most important.

And that's why I raised the issue. Because, to me, you can be a non -Seventh -day

Adventist and believe what you believe about the afterlife.

But, to be a Seventh -day Adventist, what's definitional, and what is uniquely definitional, and what's more important, what addresses the specific issue of the

Gospel, is the issue of the investigative judgment. That's why I raised the issue.

That's why I mentioned it. And, in fact, since I'm seeing, looking in the chat channel here, that almost no one has any idea what that is.

I'll even give you the opportunity, if you can do it briefly, to explain what is the investigative judgment.

How would you define it, if you could do so briefly? Well, at the Second Coming, there's the division of the sheep and the goats.

The resurrection of the living, of the righteous, at the Second Coming. And, for that determination to have been made, there must have been a judgment that these people were, in fact, righteous.

That they had faith in Jesus Christ. So, there has to be, I think in Revelation, I don't have it in front of me,

Revelation 22, it says that when He comes, His reward is with Him, in the last few verses of Revelation.

Uh -huh, uh -huh. And, He can only present that reward, which is eternal life, to those who have been judged righteous.

So, there has to have been a pre -advent judgment of the righteous, which Adventists believe began in 1844 and is underway even now.

Okay, let me make sure people heard that. So, in 1844, and this was involved with the Miller Movement, Christ entered into the sanctuary and since that period of time, the lives of those individuals who have trusted in Him for salvation have been brought before Him in the inner sanctuary and He has examined them and what did

L. M. G. White say was the basis upon which Christ would decide to apply

His atoning sacrifice to them or not? Well, the biblical answer is by faith.

Is that all? I don't know which quote of L. M. G. White you might be referring to. So, that's all.

So, why would there be an examination of their lives if the only ones being examined were those who had believed in Him anyways?

Well, God doesn't need to do this examination for His benefit. Okay. In other words,

He already knows. He's omniscient. Right.

But the heavenly hosts are not. Okay. So, the books were opened not only for the

Lord to examine but the books really opened for the heavenly hosts to examine the books to see that God's judgment has been righteous.

And what books are these? The Book of Life. Okay. The Lamb's Book of Life is really the one that's being examined.

And the only way that's my... If you appear in the Lamb's Book of Life and you, at the

Second Coming, assuming that you had died and you weren't alive at the Second Coming, all those that are resurrected, is the resurrection,

I think in the Thessalonians says those who are asleep in the Lord. Okay. But how do you get in there? How do you get into the

Lamb's Book of Life? What's the basis? Faith alone. It's not an examination of your life. Well, by faith, you appear in the

Lamb's Book of Life. Okay. Hold on. Hold on just one second. I'm going to put you on hold. We need to take our break.

Okay. We'll pick you up on the other side of the break. We'll finish this up and then the rest of our phone lines are filling up.

So, we'll need to move on from there but we'll be right back right after this. A godly man is such a rarity today.

Under the guise of tolerance, modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality.

Even more disturbing, some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In their book The Same -Sex Controversy, James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

Bible's teachings on the subject, explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

Genesis, Leviticus and Romans. Expanding on these scriptures, they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law.

In a straightforward and loving manner, they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for His people.

The Same -Sex Controversy, defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality.

Get your copy in the bookstore at www .aomin .org Alaska, the unspoiled land of nature and immensity.

Both in its realities and its possibilities, Alaska can stir our hearts and minds like no other place on earth.

Join us this summer for the 2005 Alpha and Omega Ministries Alaskan Cruise as we cruise the inside passage to the great land of Alaska with Dr.

James White and Christian recording artist Steve Camp as they explore the great doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

For our guests, the journey north is an odyssey of glorious landscapes and majestic wildlife as we sail on the luxury five -star

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.org or at 877 -SOV -CRUISE. Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing

Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ. Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.

In his book Mary, Another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic.

He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed queen of heaven viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the

Roman Catholic Church. Mary, Another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman the

Bible calls blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth.

You can order your copy of James White's book Mary, Another Redeemer at aomen .org This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning

Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service ends at 11 .00 a .m. The evening service is at 10 .45 a .m.

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00

a .m. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th

Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 -GRACE

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Lots of folks are calling in right now. We're talking with Mike all the way out in Hawaii who is a

Seventh -Day Adventist. Mike, are you familiar with a fellow by the name of W .H. Branson? No, I'm not.

The book called In Defense of the Faith Branson is a Seventh -Day Adventist. This is his reply to CanWrite.

It's a an older book but under the subject of the cleansing of the sanctuary let me just read you a couple things here so you know where I'm coming from.

Someone may say I thought that when Christ forgave my sins he took them clear away. Yes, he did, so far as you were concerned. He promises to make us as white as snow but this does not mean that the sins are finally disposed of.

He takes them from us but the record is still there. We are free because we have accepted him as our substitute and sin bearer but the record of sin is held in the sanctuary.

This then becomes the basis for the discussion which says another may ask why could not

Christ have immediately blotted out the sins of the people? Why wait until after 1844? We reply there must come first an investigation of the records.

That is essential. Here is a man who has accepted Christ. His sins have gone on before him into the sanctuary but Christ cannot blot those sins out of the record until the man's life is finished or until probation closes for him.

Why not? Because he may not continue in faith and we are told in Ezekiel 33, 12 and 13 that if the righteous man turns away from his righteousness all the righteousness that he has done shall not be remembered.

If he does not continue in faith all his past sins will come back upon him again. Jesus does not plead before the throne of God in the final judgment for one who has died in sin.

He cannot plead his blood in behalf of one who though once a Christian refuses to continue in grace.

Thus before the Lord can blot out the sins from the record books a very careful examination has to be made to see whether those who accepted

Christ have remained true. It is not the beginning of the race that gives assurance to the crown of life it is the successful finishing.

That then is what leads him into the discussion of the investigative judgment and he says of the investigative judgment during the judgment the names of those who were once Christians but who have given up their faith in Christ are blotted out of the book of life.

That's in regards to Revelation 3. And then finally just one last two little quotes here under the law of judgment it says without this trial would be a farce and decisions rendered a travesty and injustice.

God must of necessity therefore have a law by which he will test men's lives a standard by which they will be measured and if so surely in this solemn hour when court week has actually begun and cases are already being tried it behooves every man to inquire seriously what that standard is or code is and to take the necessary steps to bring his life into harmony with it before his name is called.

And then the application then becomes do not allow yourself to be deceived therefore into believing that nine points of the law will suffice and the

Sabbath point can be dropped out as non -essential that being a part of the code by which a person is going to be judged.

So does it not follow then that a person can believe in Christ but if they do not for example follow

Ellen G. White's understanding of the Sabbath law then

Christ will refuse to apply his blood to that individual in the investigative judgment.

Seventh -day Adventists do not believe well they believe that the Sabbath is the mark of the beast

I'm sure you know. Yes. Well that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast.

Anyone has the mark of the beast as yet. In other words the last 2 ,000 years Sunday keepers who did so fully believing that they were in God's will that will not be counted against them.

Is that what Ellen G. White believed? Yes. Okay. It's only when the mark of the beast comes before the world and is enforced by law that people are faced with a choice as to whether or not they take the seal of God which we believe to be the

Sabbath the seventh -day Sabbath Saturday or the mark of the beast which would be Sunday keeping.

So it's an issue that it will be before the world shortly but it is not something for which people will be condemned and ignorant.

Now you do know that there have been Seventh -day Adventists who took a different view in that. Oh there's no doubt about it. Like any other denomination there's a spectrum of what people believe.

But in as far as official what I've told you is official Roman excuse me is official

Adventist teaching with respect to the Sabbath. In other words no one has the mark of the beast as yet.

Okay but I mean obviously those who disagree with you would question the official point.

I mean you don't speak for you're not the head of the denomination. No, no, not at all. Okay, alright. I just wanted to make sure people understood that.

I'm just confirming to you that if you investigate it that's what you will find. Okay. So but to boil this all down and we've been on a long time now and there's a bunch of other folks we need to get to but to boil it all down fundamentally would you agree or disagree with the assertion that whether excuse me whether Christ applies

His atoning sacrifice depends upon your continuance in faith?

Yes it does. Okay. And you would then obviously Seventh -day

Adventist theology does not have a concept of monergistic election to where God has the elect people and He infallibly saves those elect people not based upon what they do but based solely upon His purpose and grace.

Well that's a topic unto itself but I believe that you would call it probably

Arminianism and I believe that we have we have a choice as to whether or not we follow

Christ or not. Okay. So you would you would take the

Arminian perspective on that if I don't know if you've listened to the program before but you've probably Yes I have. You've probably heard our discussions with Dave Hunt and I believe that we're faced with a choice and that choice is either to accept

Christ's righteous blood or to reject it and to reject it is to be lost. And to accept

Christ's righteous blood though is not enough if you do not continue and if your life does not measure up to the standards that we're going to be using.

Well faith without works is dead. Yeah okay. I just want to make sure everybody understood that. I just want to make sure that we weren't misrepresenting it or anything along those lines.

Mike I hope you'll keep listening. Thanks so much for the phone call out there. I appreciate your time. All right. Thank you.

Thank you. Have a good day. Thank you. All right. Well there you get things started. Once we get the microphones working we can get things going.

Let's talk with Adam up in Wisconsin. Hi Adam. Hi Dr. White. How are you doing? I wanted to call you and ask you a question because I've been

I think I told you on the channel I was reading and studying a lot of Greg Bonson's work. And one of the things that he talked about in a lecture on apologetics is he said if you're dealing with people who are non -Christians or who are not

Protestants just sit back and look for inconsistencies in their positions and bring them up.

And I was dialoguing with like 14 different Roman Catholics at one time and he said

I found a couple of things they brought up. They said that we authenticate the Catholic Church by history and of course if you do that you know you end up in infinite regression and so on.

And then somebody said we can't know what Scripture says because we have to interpret it and we're fallible and of course we have to interpret information every time every day.

That means I make the world totally intelligible. But one of the questions that someone brought up and I wasn't sure if I answered it right is she said well how do you know what is contained in the canon?

And I said and I pointed them to Dan Wallace's site Bruce Metzger's book and I said well if you have to go to all this information then doesn't that mean that the

Scriptures are not self -authenticating themselves? And I thought about that for a second and what

I answered and I don't know if this is right is that it is not the history the historical evidence the textual evidence that authenticates the

Scriptures but it's the Scriptures that authenticate the historical evidence. So when you reject the canonicity of the

Scriptures when you reject what the Scriptures are then all of a sudden it makes the facts of history unintelligible.

Did I answer that right or should I have said something different? Well, that's hard to address in a brief period of time.

Greg Bonson has a tape on the subject of the canon and he gives his particular perspective on that.

I have done a fair amount of work on that subject and would direct you to the relevant chapters in the

Scripture Alone book on the subject of the canon. I believe that the clarity and revelation of the canon is directly related to God's purpose in giving to us

Scripture. That is, that God has given to the Church the Scriptures to function as a light as a guide and therefore

God is going to exercise the same amount of power in making sure that those

Scriptures are properly identified and understood that is, the canon as is commensurate with His purpose in providing the

Church with the guidance that She needs. And so, I don't believe that our knowledge of the canon is infallible in the sense of making the

Church infallible. I don't believe it's infallible in the sense of making individuals infallible. But I believe it is sufficient to the purpose of the

Church. I have no question concerning the canon, but we need to be careful as to recognizing the difference between God's knowledge as a canon and man's knowledge as a canon.

So, I guess I understand what you were saying. I understand Bonson's point.

I practice that kind of apologetic interaction with non -believers all the time.

But I've said a number of times that I struggle with how Greg would have applied, and I've listened to his tapes on Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and Muslims and others.

But, I understand the transcendental argument. I don't understand the application of that to other world religions.

I think it's a valid thing in dealing with a person who is not a theist. But once you're dealing with a situation where you're dealing with a theist,

I don't see how it is meant to be applied. I understand the idea of examining their worldview and pointing out the inconsistencies, because if you don't have a truly biblical worldview, if you have an unbiblical theology, it's going to result in an unbiblical worldview and there's going to be inconsistencies.

But, I don't see how the transcendental argument, specifically, is going to be applied in the context of interfaith discussions with other religions and especially with those that claim to be

Christian religions. As to, like I said, the issue of the canon, remember that you're in talking with a

Roman Catholic, you're dealing with a person who really does believe that the church as an organization has canonical authority, has the ability to create canon.

And, at that point, I would, in essence, you know, if you're talking with someone on a philosophical level, you can demonstrate that to have that authority means that the church itself must be theogonistos, that which defines that which is theogonistos becomes a higher authority than the scriptures themselves.

I mean, they just sort of skirted it. Well, yeah, that's because, you've got to remember, for the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of Roman Catholics with whom you're speaking with, once you start talking about that kind of thing, theogonistos, they have no corollary, they have no ground upon which to even begin to unfold that kind of an argument.

You really are in a difficult situation at that point because you have to provide the background that they're just not getting in any way, shape, or form in their liturgy or anything like that.

And so you've got to be, you've really got to bend over backwards to provide some real basic foundational issues there in which to try to unpack those things.

So, yeah, they are going to skirt around that and they are going to continuously, we've got someone on the channel, I've seen him arguing this more than once, well, actually he may have had to have left here, nope, still there.

Coach is still there. You know, he's one of these guys that goes into the Roman Catholic web boards and tries to deal with these issues, but he's run into the same issue over and over and over again.

Once you get to issues of ultimate authorities, these folks, most of them, simply aren't willing to examine what they've made their ultimate authority.

They try to use what they call, not a circular argument, but a spiral argument.

They may have used that terminology with you. they used it. I couldn't find that in any philosophy book at all. you'll find it in Carl Keating's Catholicism and Fundamentalism.

Seriously, that's where they get the terminology, is this idea of a spiral argument based upon history that you allegedly can examine history, come up with certain conclusions from history that lead you to this next conclusion, next conclusion, and it's actually a spiral thing rather than a circular thing.

And that doesn't work either. But, yeah, you've got to be real careful to unpack these things.

And the fact of the matter is, in the vast majority of written dialogues, the context is not such that you're going to find a lot of folks who are going to be willing to allow you to do that anyway.

the answer you gave, I understand it, but I also understand why they didn't understand it in essence.

And so, yeah, the issue is whether you really want to be able to communicate, and that's, you know, really, it's a very, very difficult thing.

It's very time consuming, and you've really got to feel like you're calling and being called to that, you know, as far as that goes.

Okay? Okay. All right. Thanks for calling. Okay. God bless. Bye -bye. I'd just like to say to the folks in channel, it wasn't

St. Genes that Bonson debated. It was Jerry Matitix along with a Catholic priest who really didn't say anything because he was way out of his element.

But it was on a radio program in LA, and it was Bonson versus Matitix. Very interesting to listen to.

And so, anyway, I just thought I'd mention that as we rush on here because I'm trying to add four minutes to my thinking here because we've got a late start.

So let's go ahead and talk with Allen in Atlanta again. Hello, Allen in Atlanta. Hey, Doc. Again. Can you hear me?

Yeah, I can hear you, and I can see well too because my eyes are protected from ultraviolet rays.

How about yours? I still have my splices, buddy. And the other ones will be resurrected here in about a half week.

Resurrection from California yes, indeed. Bad theology, but we won't go into that now.

Let's get off of this real quick. Yeah, here's what's going on. Your introduction, I had to call in and I had to get your opinion on Apologetics Next to Jesus in the

Church today. I was at a Bible study Tuesday night. Actually, we were having dinner and I got on to the topic of Creflo Dollar and TD Stakes, and I was talking with another

Reformed gentleman about Creflo, and I said, now Creflo doesn't believe that Jesus is God. And he said,

I can't believe that. I said, I've got the quote. I've got it on my computer. I'll send it to you. He claims that the verse that says

God never sleeps nor slumbers, and then he goes that Jesus sleeping in the boat. See? Jesus isn't

God, blah, blah, blah. And I said, he's obvious. I thought he was a modalist. I knew he wasn't a Trinitarian, and two people down at the end of the table said, well, what's a modalist?

And I was thinking, well, okay, not everybody knows this information in the church today, so I explained what the modalist was and, you know, the theory of modalism, and then one guy says, it's funny, but it's sad, he says, well, what's the other word, the

Terrient word? What's that word? And I said, Trinitarian? And he said, yeah, what is that word?

And I said, I said, that's the Trinity. And he said, well, what's the

Trinity? And this guy has been going to this particular church for four years now, has been through their membership class, and I don't think you can fault the church entirely, but in your opinion, does this not speak volumes, this small example, to the lack of apologetics, hence the lack of ex -Jesus, which is a function of apologetics.

Well, I'd reverse that. Or apologetics is a function of ex -Jesus. Apologetics is a function of sound, systematic theology, which

I believe is based upon the exegesis, the text of scriptures. That's the epistemological direction

I would go. You start with the primacy of God's revelation, you preach that to the people, you come to understand the truth of what that presents, which is your theology, and then when you seek to apply that theology, and when you seek to defend that theology, that's where apologetics comes in at that point.

And so, all you have are sermons that are intended, and I didn't catch what church you were talking about.

Is this the church you go to? Yeah, Michael Eustis Church. Oh, oh, I wasn't asking for all that much information.

You know, I've heard, you know, I've, the problem is at very large, large churches, and I happen to know that someone's listening right now, who will find this interesting.

I can only think of a couple of what I would call mega churches that function properly.

What I mean by that is, and hold off on the music here, we may go a couple minutes long, because I want to try to finish this one, because we're almost out of time, and I apologize to Peter.

In super large churches, I was in a super large church, I was in a church that had 20 ,000 members.

I've said many times we could only find 7 ,000 at any given moment, but we had 20 ,000 members. And every year, what they would do is they would tear up the

Bible study departments and jumble everybody around, just like shuffling a deck.

And you know why they did that? They did that because those Bible study departments became little churches.

See, nobody knew the pastor, nobody knew hardly anybody on staff, and so you became naturally attached to the

Bible study leadership, because those are the people that you had fellowships with, those are the people you saw, those are the people you talked with.

So they became little churches. And so they recognized that that was bad, because these

Bible study leaders could become little pastors. And so they ripped everything up and made everybody unhappy, but that's how they did it.

They had to. There are only a couple super large churches that I see functioning in a biblical way.

They have, in their Bible study concept, first of all, they have elders that are involved.

The church I was at didn't even understand what an elder was, but they have elders involved, and they build community there, and there is a consistency between what is ministered from the pulpit and then what is done in the

Bible studies. So what is taught theologically from the pulpit is applied practically and consistently within the

Bible study structure where the actual elders meet the people and are involved in the people's lives.

But like I said, there are so few that do that. And so you can have, if you have someone who's doing a good job in the pulpit, who's actually presenting meaningful sermons to the pulpit, but there isn't an application in the

Bible study that applies that and says, look, this is what was being talked about. You heard the pastor today or last

Sunday talk about the Trinity, and here's what it is. If what you've got in the Bible studies is fluff fluff, then it really doesn't matter.

Sadly, when I was at that church, I ran a television camera, and I ran one of the cameras that would go out and would get audience shots during the sermons.

And let me tell you something, that wasn't easy. Because you'd zoom in on somebody, and you'd think this was a good shot, and they'd go to me, and they always used what's called an isotape.

Because, you know, halfway through the five or ten seconds we were going to shoot this guy, all of a sudden, the head nods.

They're gone. They're not listening. And we all know how easy it is for people to completely tune out what's being said.

And so, if there's not a consistency between what is in the pulpit and what is being applied, where you can actually talk with someone to see if they understand, if they see what the ramifications are, it's not going to work.

It's going to result in what you just ran into, and that is someone who I am sure from the sermons from the pulpit, you've got

X, Y, and Z, but if it's not applied, and then you question it, do you understand what that means?

Do you see what the ramifications are? Let's ask you some questions. That's how you do teaching. It's not going to stick.

And the result is what you described there. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't questioning his salvation, because I explained to Trinity that, okay, yeah, that's what

I believe, but I was just astounded. I went to Catholic school in kindergarten and first grade.

I've known what the Trinity is before I could remember, but it just blew me away. How could they not know this?

Well, you know, unfortunately, I don't think that that is all that unusual in very, very many churches, and especially those churches that are the quote -unquote mega -churches, things like that.

Hey, thanks for your... One more thing before I go. The music... Alaska. Alaska. Thanks for calling today,

Alan, and thanks for listening today. Thanks for putting up with our little bit of technical difficulties, but we got through it.

Unbelievable range of questions today. Great stuff. Don't forget, Tuesday morning, Marty Minto, Lord willing, will be with us.

We'll talk more about then. Thanks for listening. God bless. Brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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