April 14, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Marty Minto, Pope John Paul II, and the Cost of Speaking Biblically

Hello. Hello. Hello. Well, that sounds a whole lot better than it did before the Jesuits did manage to infiltrate the Many layers of security that we have here at our massive complex out in the woods of Montana.

Actually the phantom power died, you know. Those boards I ain't impressed I'm sorry. But I've been a sound man before and I I've never had entire chat channels. Just die with the regularity that we've had on those sound boards.

So I I'm afraid I'm not going to be advertising for those folks anytime soon. Well, welcome to the dividing line if you're tuning in expecting Marty Minto to join us check the blog. I Marty called me earlier, but Unfortunately missed out the number.

The guy is running around like a chicken with his head cut off today. Since the AP picked up his story and now he's everywhere. He may even be getting a chance to do handy and combs, which would be great.

It really would be. But I you know, he was saying can we do it maybe a little bit later? We almost end up having to do it later simply for computer problems. But I said, let's just do it on Tuesday and that way, you know, well, let's a little bit of this die down.

And some of you may recall Marty Minto. I was filling in for Marty. When I did the program with Dave Hunt on Calvinism that was about 90 days before the first manuscript of what love is this started floating around and Beyond that that's also the program we are on with Marty Minto as the moderator of a debate Jeff Neil and I passed Jeff Neil and I debated a Homosexual pastor quote-unquote and one of his parishioners from a local Homosexual church and that ended up leading directly to the two things the writing and publishing of the same-sex controversy and the debate with Barry Lynn on the subject of homosexuality, so I Don't know how many times I was on with Marty Minto.

We talked about the Potter's freedom there. He's the one that was involved with the trying to get Norman Geisler on. Norman Geisler wouldn't come on his program without all these conditions and all the rest of stuff and.

So I've I've known Marty for quite some time. And I can guarantee you a Phoenix radio has not been the same since he left. As far as having, you know, really exciting stuff to to listen to listen to and so anyway.

First thing as soon as I get into the office this morning all the discussions about Marty Minto being let go. I'm going to read you the story from the Tribune Review. Pittsburgh Tribune Review dated today.

Pittsburgh talk radio host Marty Minto says he spent most of his time on the air last week doing what he always does discussing current events in the perspective of an evangelical Christian. Following a week's worth of conversation as word 101 .5 FM show they questioned whether Pope John Paul II's Roman Catholic beliefs could be an impediment to entering heaven.

Station management pulled the plug. Minto was fired Friday ending a three-year stint as host the radio stations only locally produced show which aired from 3 to 6 p .m on weekdays. I was called to the office after my show Friday and told that I was being let go because I was alienating the listeners said Minto 39 of Newcastle Lawrence County who previously did talk radio shows in Albany, New York Phoenix.

That was KPXQ by the way and Denver. Minto also is senior pastor the 100 member Turning Point Community Church in Newcastle. As far as I'm concerned I was doing what I've always done on the radio look at events around the world from a biblical perspective said Minto.

I've always been willing to talk about controversial subjects. Chuck Gratner General manager of word FM for the past 14 years said the station does not dispute Minto's account of events. We ended our relationship with him because of differences in how he conducted his show.

Gratner said Word FM needs to function in this city in support of the entire Church that means everybody and not focus on denominational issues. He said Minto's time slot is being filled on an interim basis by Chris Buddha who did the show before Minto was hired.

We are currently examining What would be the best use that time slot. Gratner said no decisions have been made during the week in which the news was dominated. By the death and funeral the Pope Minto discussed with callers John Paul II deep devotion to Mary the mother of Jesus and Catholic beliefs such as purgatory.

I made it clear that the discussion was not an attack on the character of the Pope. But rather a look at the teachings not only of John Paul But the Catholic Church in general Minto said. Minto said he responded to a question about whether the Pope would go to heaven with the belief held by many Evangelical Christians that a person must be a born-again believer.

I.

Said the question of whether a person is born again is something personal something between an individual and the Creator Minto said I believe It was a legitimate topic to discuss. Now this is interesting.

Listen to this the Reverend wrong. Ron Langwin spokesman for the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh Said the diocese did not complain to word FM regarding Minto show. He said station management Contacted the diocese to say that Minto had been fired Word FM and its sister station WP IT 730 a .m. Are owned by Camarillo, California based Salem communications which owns 95 Christian oriented stations in the United States.

And so there you have the story I've We just we discussed the Roman Catholic controversy when I was on with Marty on his program more than once I think I was trying to think this afternoon if we ever did any debates With a Roman Catholic apologist.

I think we did. I Think we had some Genes on at one point now that I think about it. So we actually did some some Roman Catholic debates. We had both sides on. I filled in for Marty at least four times.

That I can think of where I actually did his program maybe more than that, I think there was a time when he was gone for a while and so. That's you know, what can I yeah, in fact, I forgot about that.

He went out to the Mesa Easter pageant and we did the his he did his program from right across the street. At the Arby's boy the folks at Arby's take some heat for that but at the Arby's across the street from the LDS temple in Mesa during the the Mesa Easter pageant and boy if you get The hackles up on a few folks there, but if he hadn't done that we never would have met Warren.

So that was that was a good thing. So anyway Obviously Marty continued being Marty when he went to Pittsburgh and one thing it's very very obvious.

Um.

The Reformation, the Printing Press, and the Freedom to Publish

Well, let me tie this together with something happened to me this afternoon. I am working on desperately working on an article of the Reform Baptist Theological Review on the subject of textual criticism and preaching and I'm sure it sounds totally, you know, absolutely exciting to everybody, but it's a slow Job because you it's very difficult to address textual critical issues quickly.

Even just typing textual critical material takes a long time. You're superscripting stuff and you're changing language fonts and your special characters and all the rest of stuff. And anyway, one of the translations that I was discussing I Didn't own.

I had it electronically, but the problem is electronic versions of various translations will frequently look different Than the published or the printed version and so last night mutato in a channel and The dr. Keith and a few other folks were helping me because they had this translation and But still I needed to check it out for myself.

I need to do a little first-hand research here. So I had to run up to a Christian bookstore and buy this particular translation. I needed to have one anyway.

And.

So I went to Berean Christian bookstore, which used to be down near Grand Canyon College. Now it's way up farther north and they're gonna be moving again because it looks like that entire strip mall is being torn down and replaced with who knows what and anyway, I Found what I was looking for.

I'm standing in line and I look down and At the table that they've put to you know, sort of last chance to get somebody to buy something. Okay, here's the table in the line. You're waiting to get to the register.

Guess who's smiling back at me from the table? Yes, you're right Pope John Paul the second. There are three books and the sad thing is I can tell there had been a whole stack of them and they were all gone.

But there were three books picture books sort of like tabletop tabletop books coffee table type books picture books of John Paul's life and John Paul's prayers. On the back of one of them was this sweet little picture of a little kid in his arms and you can't see his face but the little kids smiling at you and it's just all meant to make you feel really warm and and Fuzzy and you know all the rest that stuff.

And.

I'm just staring at this and I put the two together folks. The very same reason that there were John Paul books sitting there that had sold at Brian Christian bookstore Is why Marty Minto was fired from a Salem station.

It's called money M-o-n-e-y and Roman Catholics have it and so you want to Make sure that you don't alienate. That's why that's why the management called the diocese to let them know. Hey, I want you to know we canned that guy.

That's why they did it is To make sure that there's no bad blood there. There's no offense there. You know the management's not offended by what Rome teaches. Because that's theology and that's irrelevant in the radio biz.

Okay.

So.

That's.

That's what's going on here today folks. The Reformation. The Reformation that allows Word FM to choose its programs because remember what things were like before the Reformation. Remember I've mentioned the gambit that Erasmus took.

Remember I've told this this story. That's not how you spell compromise by the way. I've told the story remember Erasmus wanted to be the first person to print and publish the Greek New Testament and He already knew that Cardinal Jimenez Had published not published printed a beautiful edition Multifolio edition of the Greek New Testament and It hadn't been published yet, so wouldn't you think.

Well, why would you even bother someone's already printed it? Why hadn't they published it. Because before the Reformation folks? Rome controlled everything that was published. If you want to publish a book That had to do with anything religious at all you had to get the permission of the Vatican.

You had to run it through Rome all right and so Cardinal Jimenez is beautiful edition.

Was.

Waiting for papal approval. So what Erasmus did is once he got his ready to go, and it was moving. He was moving at high speed, and that's why there's all the errors in the book of Revelation in what's called the TR today because the fact that.

You know he was he was trying to get it done way too quickly. And he he only had one manuscript of the book of Revelation. He borrowed from his friend Johannes Roikland and the last page had fallen off.

And so he translated from Latin into Greek for a number of the verses create all sorts of wacky readings. They were still in the King James today anyway. He rushes through all that stuff. They print it and they publish it without Vatican approval.

Now what kept him from being? Tied to a stake and turned into a into a fireball. He dedicated his edition to Pope Leo the 10th in Rome. That's how he tried to get around and it worked. He beat. He beat Cardinal Jimenez the punch, but you see that's what people had to worry about if there had been no Reformation Word FM would only be able to Put into existence or put on the air shall we say put on the air.

What the Vatican said he put could put on the air and you say come on? Yeah, it's not something would have changed eventually. I all I'm telling you is the reason. That people start having the freedom to do otherwise is called the Reformation.

Okay, the Protestant Reformation and All Marty Minto was doing was doing what I've done and that is saying excuse me folks. There's something wrong here. There's something really really really wrong here we're watching television and Everybody and their second cousin is showing up on Fox News and CNN and.

They have just simply ushered the Pope into heaven. And what that means is they believe that the Roman Catholic gospel saves whatever that is the Roman Catholic gospel saves. They don't seem to care that Rome has anathematized the gospel.

They supposedly believe in. They don't seem to care that Rome has added so many things to the Gospels to make the Judaizers in Galatia look like look like amateurs and. And so they've demonstrated either they have no idea what was going on the Reformation at all.

Or they don't care they know but they don't care. They don't believe it anymore. Now there's all sorts of folks who don't believe it anymore. There's there's no question about that. There's you know, there's all sorts of denominations that have gone gone liberal and they don't believe this stuff is relevant anymore.

And the Reformation is all a big mistake. No question about that and then you've got the the post-modernists and the emergent church and all the rest of stuff and the quote-unquote reformed Catholics and they're all going there whichever direction none of them can tell you what truth is they can't tell what the gospel is anymore.

All that stuff. We knew all of that. But here you get the clear. I think the clearest picture we have gotten in our generation of the fact that evangelicalism isn't. We need to take the term evangelical back.

It has been it has been prostituted it's it's been stolen from us even the evangel is the gospel. But if the gospel is no longer knowable. If you can't tell me what the gospel is if you can't tell me what the gospel isn't then please stop calling yourself an evangelical if you think the Evangel is just Have warm feelings about Jesus.

You are not an evangelical. Okay, I'm gonna start calling you neo evangelicals. Pseudo-evangelicals, whatever you want to say but the fact the matter is you are not an evangelical if you don't if you can't proclaim the gospel and Say this is the truth.

This is the power of God in the salvation. This is what you must bow the knee to if you don't think you can know it if you think it's been lost. If you think it's just the name Jesus without any explanation of who he is or what he's done or anything else.

You are not an evangelical. Stop calling yourself that okay, you know, the sad fact the matter is I bet you anything more than half the people who would actually Identify themselves as evangelical don't even know what the word means.

They don't know what the evangelist. They have no concept. No idea at all and That's what happens folks. When you stop preaching the word exegetically. From the pulpit when you stop Teaching the Word of God when you stop teaching it in the Sunday school or the Bible study class when you stop teaching it from the pulpit when you start entertaining people and dragging them in with your musical program.

Afraid to offend them. This is what is going to happen. When you stop trusting the Holy Spirit of God to build his church, you're gonna end up with a church. That is nothing but a facade. What has happened since the death of Pope John Paul the second has demonstrated to us that what the church is in our day and age the external church what we see around us in so many situations is just like when you take that bus ride through Universal Studios and When you're going down the middle of street.

It looks like you're in an old Western town or it looks like you're in Manhattan or it looks like you're in Italy. But then you go around the corner.

And.

You find out it's all Fake it's just a facade. There's no substance. There's nothing there. Well what the death of Pope John Paul the second has done is it's taken us around the corner and We can see these huge buildings With lots and lots of people.

But no gospel. No substance no foundation there's nothing there. And if people can so easily abandon the gospel and throw it out in A situation like this just so that you know, I don't want I don't want people think badly.

I mean, I I don't want everybody to like me if they'll do that. Now. What happens when real persecution comes? What happens when to walk through the door of your church on Sunday morning means that your taxes double.

How many people are gonna show up? That's when you find out where the real church is and that means well You you figure out what that means for this nation and for Western culture as a whole. Absolutely amazing.

I'm writing an open letter to word FM and.

I.

Just wish I had more time cuz I still got to write this paper. That's just just still gotta do it. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 my goodness. Is it 24 after? Well, we got four minute. That's only 20 after really sort of in the sense of as far as programs concern.

8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 Is the phone number if you would like to comment? Oh, I Need to finish the story. Make sure you mark it down. Marty is going to do his best to be with us.

Tuesday morning.

At 11 o 'clock our time that's 2 p .m. Eastern Daylight Time 11 a .m. Pacific Daylight Time and We will get a chance to talk to him and it's gonna be fun because Most the time I was on the other side of the microphone from Marty. I was the one being interviewed.

This time I will be doing the interviewing though. Something tells me I might Possibly sort of you know start doing a little preaching and things like that in the process. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. Only have one caller at the moment.

We filled up the lines last time and that I I know when I start off Preaching that doesn't help get people to call. I know that but that's just the way we do things around here. 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. I need to go ahead and Get to our first caller because he's calling all the way from Hawaii.

Hello, Mike. How are you? How are you, sir? Fine. I'll bet you it's somewhere between 72 and 86 degrees where you are. You're right. Yeah, I bet it's probably is it stay pretty much, you know right around upper 70s lower 80s, right.

Well in the summer it will get up close to 90 but rarely.

Anyway, well, you know you you also have to worry about hurricanes. So I guess that's that's the one the one one change there. What can we do for you Mike?

Well, as you know Catholics teach that there are three possibilities upon a person's death, right? And I think we would agree that purgatory is not true. I.

You and I hopefully would agree with that. Yes, okay.

And the other two possibilities. One that the Pope's immortal soul would be in hell right now, right. Or that his immortal soul is in heaven. Right, and I would like to read if I may seven verses sure from the King James.

Well, if you would let them speak for themselves.

First would be Ecclesiastes chapter 9 verses 5 and 6. All right. For the living know that they shall die. But the dead know not anything. Neither have they any more a reward for the memory of them is forgotten.

Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished. Neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the Sun. Next would be Psalm 146 3 and 4. Put not your trust in princes or in the Son of Man in whom there is no help.

His breath goes forth. He returns to his earth in That day. In that very day his thoughts. Next would be Psalm 115. 17 The dead praise not the Lord neither any that go down into silence. And in the New Testament then James 4 14 Whereas you know not what shall be on the morrow for what is your life.

It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. And then the last verse would be Genesis 3 verse 4. And the serpent said to the woman you shall not surely die. Did the serpent tell the truth or not?

Okay, and.

I propose to you that the Pope is neither in heaven that the Pope is unconscious asleep in his grave. I see.

Well, there's a little problem with that. And I noticed as soon as you went to Ecclesiastes 9 I was gonna say now need to be careful Ecclesiastes is talking about from the earthly viewpoint. But then when he went to the others I could tell where you were going eventually.

Yeah, I figured you would. Yeah, yeah the the problem there is the fact that Paul teaches that to be absent the bodies to be at home with the Lord. He also teach Peter taught us that the Lord knows how to keep under punishment.

Those who are awaiting the day of judgment that punishment is an ongoing thing. It's not just simply a promise of a future situation and the idea of mere unconsciousness. Would also have some problems with those martyrs in in the book of Revelation.

I can at least see how some people might argue for the the wicked even though Peter has a problem with that. But certainly for the righteous. There is immediately the the presence of Christ. And so I am aware of the arguments that should be putting forth.

The problem is would you be would you be coming from like a Seventh-day Adventist perspective? Absolutely. I see. Wow, well, you know. This particular issue would be one that we would certainly disagree on but far more importantly to me.

Would you be one of those Seventh-day Adventists that would hold to the investigative judgment? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, see I I would put that as being as false a gospel as Rome's. Personally, I don't see any difference between The investigative judgment and the grounds that that places one's relationship to God on and what Rome.

Really didn't call for the to discuss the investigative judgment. Although I would be happy to if you wanted to. Well There's a way my point was and I didn't comment on the verses. I let them spoke for the speaks himself, and I think they're very clear that when a person dies his thoughts perish.

Probably from the urges. There's no conscious immortal soul that goes to heaven.

I see you just you just. You just read something in there that your first comment was was correct. Your second comment demonstrated a A tradition that then tries to tie these things together. That's where the difference is.

For example in Ecclesiastes chapter 9. There's many things said in Ecclesiastes concerning all is vanity. Well, okay in a particular Context on earth we understand what's being said there. But you certainly are not going to take that to mean that there is nothing that has meaning in this life.

So you're doing the same thing and trying to say well. Their their memory is gone from this earth. They no longer have any interaction on this earth.

I would agree completely. That doesn't mean however perfect their love their hatred their envy is now perished. And that's yes, and in verse 5 it's saying that their memory is forgotten. In other words their memory has known.

In other words, their consciousness is gone. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no that that's no you see. You're reading that into it that this is this is on the earth. This is on the very day. This is this is on the earth, this is not yeah on the earth.

Yes, but you have to allow the rest of Scripture to speak. What are what are the what are the shades in in and as they have 12 and 14? What are these what are they doing when the spirits of these wicked Kings comes to them?

What are these these individuals who are these things? How do they know this is a king? There's clearly conscious existence at that point and the fact that matter is there are a number of passages in New Testament say otherwise but the reason that I went to the issue and asking you where you're coming from is because I tend to think that unfortunately a lot of these discussions, especially with a believing conservative seventh-day Adventist Misses the point because to me I could sit around talk with the Roman Catholic about Oh, let's say The papal infallibility which we've done and that's important it speaks to issues of authority.

That's sort of be like talking to you about the claims that that Ellen G white made concerning Her prophecies and her writings in relation to scripture and things like that, but if that's all I ever discussed I'm I'm not doing you any favor because the real issue and the issue I always get to with Roman Catholics is the issue of what the gospel is.

What is most important and that's why I Raised the issue because to me you can be a non seventh-day Adventist and Believe what you believe about the afterlife but to be a seventh-day Adventist what's Definitional and what is uniquely definitional and what's more important what addresses the specific issue of the gospel?

Is the issue of the investigative judgment? That's why I raised the issue. That's why I mentioned it and in fact since I'm seeing looking in the chat channel here that almost no one has Any idea what that is?

I'll Leave probably I'll even give you the opportunity if you can do it briefly To explain what what is the investigative judgment? How would you define it? If you could do so briefly?

Well at the second coming there's the division of the sheep and the goat Resurrection of the living. And for that determination to have been made there must have been a judgment that these people were in fact Righteous that they they had faith in Jesus Christ.

So there has to be I think in Revelation. I don't have it in front of me. Revelation 22 It says that when he comes his reward is with him in the last few verses of Revelation. Uh-huh, and he can only present that reward which is eternal life to those who have been judged righteous.

So there has to have been a pre Advent judgment of the righteous. Which Adventist believe began in 1844 and is underway even now, okay?

Let me make sure people heard that so in 1844 and this was involved with the the the Miller movement. Yes Christ entered into the sanctuary and since that period of time The lives of those individuals who have trusted in him for salvation Have been brought before him in the inner sanctuary and He has examined them.

And what did LMG white say was the basis upon which? Christ would decide to apply his atoning sacrifice to them or not.

Well the biblical answer is by faith. Is that all. I don't know which. So that that's all so.

Why would why would there be an Examination of their lives if you if the only ones being examined were those who had believed in him anyways. Well.

God doesn't need to. God doesn't need to do this examination for his benefit. Okay, words. He already knows he's.

Omniscient right.

But the heavenly hosts are not. Okay, so the books were opened not only for The Lord to examine, but the books really open for the heavenly host to examine the books to see that God's judgment has been righteous,.

And what books are these. The books of the book of the book of life. Okay, lamb's book of life is really the one that's being examined and the only way to that's my lamb's book of life. And then you you at the second coming assuming that you had died, and you weren't alive at the second coming right?

All those that are resurrected.

Okay, but how do you get in there? How do you get into the lambs book of life? What's the what's the basis. Faith alone? It's not it's not examination of your life.

Right well by faith you appear in the lambs book of life.

Okay, hold on hold on just one second. I'm gonna put you on hold. We need to take our break, okay? We'll pick you up on the other side of the break. We'll finish this up, and then we're the rest of our phone lines are filling up.

So we need to move on from there, but we'll be right back right after this.

Today.

Strong and true quickly fall away under the guise of tolerance. Modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In Their book the same-sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law. In a straightforward and loving manner they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent.

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day. Now the pilgrims progress is not an easy way. It's a journey.

Canon, Apologetics, and the Limits of Transcendental Arguments

And welcome back to the dividing line. We have lots of folks are calling in right now. We're we're talking of talking with Mike all the way out in.

Hawaii.

Who is the seventh day best Mike? Are you familiar with fellow by name WH Branson?

No, I'm not.

Book called in defense of the faith. Branson is a seventh-day Adventist. This is his reply to to can write. It's an older book, but. Under the subject of the cleansing of the sanctuary. Let me just read you a couple things here.

So, you know where I'm coming from. Someone may say I thought that when Christ forgave my sins he took them clear away. Yes, he did so far as you were concerned. He promises to make us as white as snow.

But this does not mean the sins are finally disposed of. He takes them from us. But the record is still there. We are free because we've accepted him as our substitute and sin-bearer. But the record of sin is held in the sanctuary.

This then becomes the basis for the discussion. Which says another may ask why could not Christ have immediately blotted out the sins of the people. Why wait until after? 1844 we replied there must come first an investigation of the records.

That is essential. Here is a man who has accepted Christ. His sins have gone on before him into the sanctuary. But Christ cannot blot those sins out of the record until the man's life is finished or until probation closes for him.