Shadows to Substance Post Show Debate: Dr. James White, Braden Patterson, Jeff Rice & Greg Moore Jr

Opening Banter and Sound Check

You want, if you want, you want to put those on so you can hear a little better? Why?

Oh, look at him. I think everybody looks goofy wearing headphones. He's going raw. As long as I can hear you, I'm good.

Post-Conference Reflections on Shadows to Substance

All right, here we go. Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between, broadcasting from an undisclosed location, Dead Man Walking starts now. Not this time. We're in Tullahoma, baby.

Come on. Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of Dead Man Walking Podcast, and this is the final episode on our Shadows to Substance Conference. We are doing a post-conference interview. We have Pastor Jeff here.

We have Pastor Braden here. We have Pastor, Elder, Doctor, I don't know, whatever you want to call him, James White. Just don't call him late for dinner here, and we're going to be talking about what just went down the last three days.

Jeff, tell us a little bit about the vision on this for everyone listening and how you felt it played out. The vision started out with just me dreaming and thought I could do something, and it turned out to be bigger than I could ever imagine.

We started partying Wednesday, and we haven't stopped. It's been so much fun. I've learned so much, and just being able to hang out with the guys, Braden and Haps, who I do the podcast with, and have Dr. White come, man, it's just been a dream come true, and you, the token Presbyterian that we baptized.

Someone had to make sure you were partying. I didn't know Baptists partied like that, but we had a good time. Yeah, it was really, really fun. Yeah, so it was shadows to substance. We got into all kinds of stuff, the ark, Adam to Christ, the true vine.

It was very good, and then it ended with a debate. Is it Thomas Ross and James White? I'm just going to be honest here. I've watched a lot of King James only debates, most of them yours, Dr. White. I was hoping for something other than preservation, and that's what we got today, unfortunately, so I'm a little disappointed, but shame on me.

We won't get into that, but what were your guys' thoughts on the conference overall and the debate overall?

Moderating the Debate and Keeping the Audience Engaged

I never want to moderate ever again on another show. I feel like I didn't get any of the sustenance from the debate, and I was just focusing on time and making sure. You weren't the only one. Yeah. Making sure people weren't not asking questions when it was their time, and so then I just, I don't know, halfway through, I was like, yeah, I'm not listening.

Why am I doing this? Yeah. This was a dumb thing to volunteer for. Yeah.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Me being dumb for volunteering for it? No, me being dumb for volunteering for it. No.

Did you feel you accomplished anything there on your 180th debate, which this was your 180th? It was my 180th.

Not really, and I'll tell you why. This is what happens when the intention of each of the debaters is completely different. Yeah. My intention is to bring the audience along with us to understand what the issues are so that at the end of the debate, they have a full understanding of where the two sides are and what the issues really are.

Then there are other people that do a debate for their people, and they may not even be in attendance, but it's being recorded, and so you don't care about the audience, and you leave the audience out.

I'm afraid this is one of those debates where the audience was left out. The simple fact of the matter is, when my opponent was making his opening presentation for 25 minutes, I don't care how you, anybody, I don't care who it was, how fast you could read.

There was no way. AR -15 of information. You weren't even getting close to being able to follow what was being presented. He was speaking at chipmunk speed, and it was all meant to just throw as much stuff out there and see what sticks.

It wasn't for these people, and so I always feel badly, because there's nothing I can do about it. I always feel badly, because my presentation was slow-paced, understandable. I want to bring you along.

I want you to see what the issues are, so I'm disappointed when that happens. In this situation, the fact of the matter is, if we had gotten into any when I did stop and look at specific texts, it was real easy to go, no, come on, look, this is what's

I think that's what most of the people here were hoping for, too, was a debate on those things. Right. That's disappointing, but I know you won't say it, but I'll say it. Sometimes, I think, too, certain people might just want to have on their resume that they've debated James White.

Oh, no.

The last guy I debated, Dr. Van Cleek, that's exactly what he said. Okay. He said that openly. I don't want that on my resume.

Well, no, they'll just say, oh, I presented him with all this stuff. Of course.

I stood in front of James White and I won it, right, so, yeah. I'm just like, I just want people to understand what the issues are, and if I have to sit there and try to very quickly educate people for the first time about how to look at a textual variant or the difference between a Greek article and an English article, I can do that, but it's not something I want to be doing in a debate in that context, because I'm not sure how edifying it is.

So, yeah, well, you do what you can.

But overall, I think the conference was very good. It was great coming down here, being with brothers and sisters in the Lord. Brayden, what'd you take away from it? Because this was the first conference of this kind.

Planning Future Conferences and Calvinism

I think, Jeff, you're thinking about having more. I would love to be in attendance for those. I love you, brothers.

No, no, wait a minute. Wait a minute. It was only two months ago I was communicating with Jeff, and he was about ready to pull his hair out, and I could tell he had discovered just how hard these things are, how complicated they're, how expensive they are.

We did a big old You've done a few in your day, I think. Well, yeah, the last one we did was 2004, and there's a reason for that.

So, yeah, so Oh, so you're saying you're going to run it for him next year? Oh, no, no, no, no. Is that what you're saying, Wilk? I heard commitment in there. Yeah, I did, too. Yeah, so the thing is, is everyone thought I was crazy.

Like, my congregation, everyone thought I was crazy. But after they experienced this, they're now saying, okay, we're behind you. And so I think the next one, I'm going to have people behind me that believe in my vision, and so it won't be just me doing it by myself.

Well, that's how G3 started. So just in case you know. I want it to stay small. 5 ,000 people, yeah, soon. I want the intimacy, the fellowship. I don't want nothing back. Like, if it goes bigger than this, I don't want it.

You're like the exact opposite of a conference promoter. I'm from the trailer park, okay? He says, I don't want to go any bigger than 75.

It really was a blessing, though. I mean, just, it was Christ-exalting non-stop. I don't think there was a preacher I didn't have a tear running down my face for. Just hearing the message that they were continually, expositionally seeing Christ in all those shadows.

It was truly a blessing, truly a blessing. No offense, but I thought that the debate, though I was hoping it would be the cherry on top, I really, the preaching was the cherry on top. It was amazing.

No disagreement for me there. Good, good, solid preachers all the way down. Cool, so we feel good about it. Jeff, what do you think? You doing something next year around the same time for people listening?

Yep, next year around the same time. We're looking at calling it Chosen, and it will be based on Calvinism. Hopefully, we can get the doctor to come in.

Good luck to find a Calvinism.

Podcast Promotion and Closing Benediction

Well, guys, thanks so much for stopping by, sitting for a few minutes, kind of going over the, the whole thing was just very good, and I wanted to get our listeners to kind of see who was involved and who put it on.

So, and also to check out your podcast. I know, obviously, Open Air Theology, Dividing Line, obviously, Alpha Omega Ministries. Make sure everyone I'm sure watching here knows who Dr. James White is. Did you have a, did you have a shameless self-promotion before we go?

So go like, comment, subscribe, show your mom, your auntie, and all that. Reformed Ex-Mormon is my YouTube channel, and if you live in Hagerman, Idaho, come check out our church, Valley Baptist Church.

It'd be a blessing to have you.

All right, guys, thank you so much. As always, remember, chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. God bless.

Thanks, guys. See how much easier it is without something sitting on your head?