October 7, 2004

The Dividing Line Opens With the Need to Give a Defense

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Debates, Politics, and the Problem of Answering Questions

Well, good afternoon evening. Welcome to the dividing line. We are live this this evening 8 7 7 7 5 3 33 41 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 don't have any Debates to be running into at this particular point in time as far as the presidential ones or vice presidential ones.

Wouldn't want to I really wouldn't want to have to debate dick Cheney that would be a hmm, especially when you're really Fluffy trial lawyer be an ugly thing. But anyway. That one again, not really a debate, but you know.

Folks like me sort of goats. Excuse me. Excuse me, sir. You didn't answer the question, sir. Did you hear the question sir? You you did hear the question, but you didn't answer the question. That was that was just what I kept thinking when I listened to that.

It was mmm. It was amazing and did you see the disadvantage that put vice president Cheney at he'd actually answer the question and Then the other guy just sort of wanders off, you know. You know, I didn't get a chance to say this about this thing about 12 minutes ago and I'd like to you know, I mean like What was that one question that that I recall very clearly?

Something about you personally, you know. And so Cheney the answers and then that other guy with the fake hair or the you know.

Well, it's not fake. Oh the one where they weren't supposed to mention. No, no.

No, not where he kept saying the other guy's name because he couldn't get through that one. But no, it was it was they asked For you to like give personal. What was it? You know a personal Story about you know, why you should be vice president and and didn't even come close.

It's like you didn't remember what the question was. Well that happened all the time. But anyway, it was I'll tell you it was it was ugly. But anyhow, I did see a excellent Where was this thing? I think I put it in politics here.

Yeah right here. Here's here's a good here's a good comment. Watching the presidential debates of October 1st and the subsequent reactions to them has let me once again has left me once again With a sad realization that there are many millions of people who prefer a man who says the wrong things.

Well over one who says the right things badly and the case the first debates We are talking about saying very very stupid things. Well and Intelligent things very very badly. Exactly that is exactly right and the second paragraph is now I don't mean stupid in a bad way.

I fully credit John Kerry with the intelligence needed to analyze dissect and evaluate a position and without mechanical aid quickly and accurately use advanced trigonomic functions to determine the most popular position on a wide range of complex issues a Speed requires a very quick mind indeed.

Yep, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep, and you know, I knew that all along and and and Anybody who has listened to post debate discussions in my own debates knows that as well because I'm gonna tell you it's Listening to what people heard and What they didn't hear and How rarely the issue is why that person just couldn't follow an argument and they were not able to substantiate their points.

That's not what they say. They say things like well, his tie was incredible, you know kind of stuff and it's just like It's it's really sad. Anyway, I wasn't gonna start there and in fact I only have like 26 minutes now to respond to this stuff because I've got a special guest I hope we have a special guest half-hour because Someone decided to lay down a few minutes.

I hope the the alarm worked anyway Last time we were together. I did not have the opportunity to do a lot of Discussion of this but I wanted to respond to David Hoff, I believe that's the names David Hoff this I heard this as I was driving to church Sunday morning.

I I happened to click on family radio To see if there might be some nice You know music because that's that's sadly only family radio plays the hymns we sing That's a commentary but Instead I got this stuff and I came right in right at this point.

And as soon as I started hearing this I'm just rolling my eyes and just Just just wanting to drive down the other wrong side of the road and Let's just listen to a little bit of David Hoff give you an idea of what it was I was listening to and then we'll start to providing a response.

Unfortunately, we'll read verse 16. It's a complicated verse.

Knowing that these true believers knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law. But by the faith of Jesus Christ. Even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law.

For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. So it's a complicated verse. It starts out with the word knowing. This is something the true believers know that generally is not known in the Christian community.

And here is a important question. Whose faith saves us. Whose faith has saved you if you're a believer? Now remember we read in Ephesians 2 8 you're saved by grace through faith, but God didn't say whose faith there.

Although we kind of did by saying it was not of ourselves. But whose faith is that referring to. Whose faith. Well Galatians 2 16 and a couple of other verses tell us very specifically. A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

So whose faith. Faith of Jesus Christ we understand and the believers can understand this that we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. We have the answer whose faith saves us the faith of Jesus Christ not by our faith.

We're saved by Christ faith by the way, this is the correct translation. I got into a discussion with somebody and and. And you know the new Bible is probably maybe if you have a Bible other than the King James.

It probably says the faith in Christ and the new Bibles have changed it. But the Greek is very simple and I've studied a little bit of Greek and I know it's very simple. It's the faith of Christ that is the correct translation and I got into a discussion with somebody I showed him that the Greek is very simple.

Just like the English is very simple and. But oh, but it's just it's so hard to accept because the church says it's our faith. The church and the Bible say it's our faith, but the Greek is very clear.

It's God's faith. Okay, so we're being tested each one of us is being tested. Do you follow the Bible or do you follow the church? Do you follow the church the Bible translators the Christian community all the tracts out there say it's our faith.

Put your faith in Christ. They even change the Bible. Okay, but the Bible says the King James Bible is correct. It says Christ's faith has saved us and there's a few, you know. Unfortunately, you know, we're so blessed in English because we have an old Bible the King James Bible.

I have some contact with some of the other languages and many of them haven't had a Bible until the last hundred years or a Bible that's a full Bible and a lot of them almost all of them say faith in Christ.

But there's a few of the like the some of the like I know the Old Spanish Bible says faith of Christ and some of the Other languages faith of Christ. I think the Chinese Bible says that but a lot of the languages.

They've already gotten to those languages and they all say faith in Christ.

Okay.

Now next we read in verse 16 even we have believed in Jesus Christ now God is teaching us the effect of salvation now. We can understand the difference between a cause and effect right. The cause of salvation is the faith of Christ.

The effect of salvation is we have faith. See Christ's faith is the one. Christ is the faithful one that gave us salvation. He is faithfully completed our salvation. Christ has done it. The Lord Jesus came into this world as a man.

He faithfully obeyed the Father even to the end and went to the Christ and once the cross excuse me He went to the cross. He faithfully obeyed the Father and during hell rose again. Returned to heaven sent the Holy Spirit to apply the Word of God to the hearts of the elect.

Christ was faithful in all of those things to accomplish our salvation. That's why we're saved by Christ. He's the faithful one. That's the cause of our salvation. Now next part in the verse even we have believed in Jesus Christ is the result of salvation.

Faith in Christ. Appears faith in Christ appears in the life as a result of salvation. Just move over to Galatians 5 if you would. Galatians 5 22. Galatians 5 22 very close by it's not very far away. Galatians 5 22 and of course, we know that this is the fruit of the Spirit the fruit of the Spirit.

Okay, but the fruit of the Spirit is love joy peace long-suffering gentleness goodness faith. Meekness temperance. Against such there is no law. So now the question is is the fruit of the Spirit. Is that what causes to be saved or is that the result of our?

Salvation.

It's a result first God saves us and then he works in our lives and these fruits start showing up. He gives us a new heart, but that isn't sufficient enough. He has to put the Holy Spirit in us and and guide us.

He has to do it all and then a godly love to take the first one shows up in our life. We start to love God, which is it means we want to obey him and we love our fellow man. Which is to bring the gospel and so that's the result of salvation.

Love a true godly love Shows up as a result of salvation. God is working in our life to build that and you notice in the same passage just like love is a result of salvation. Faith is a result now in the perverseness of modern man.

This is the churchmen. These are the Christian community. They've changed that to faithfulness or something else. The word is faith. The word faith appears. Exact spelling about 200 times in the New Testament always translated faith, okay, and it's here.

It's faith too, but of course they don't like that if they can't if they can't have what they want. They just change the Bible to say what they want. That's why if you don't have a King James Bible go out and buy one.

Okay, it's faith.

See, okay.

So if it were our faith that would save us it would be something different the fruit of the Spirit. But faith in Christ Shows up here as a result of salvation. So our faith in Christ begins to develop and that's an evidence of a true believer.

And evidence that God has saved us is that there is faith in Christ but that is the cause. We understand that excuse me the effect. We understand the difference between a cause and effect. The cause of our salvation is Christ faith.

The result of salvation is a faith in God like a love for God begins to develop.

Now having played all of that Well there you go, did you did you notice the all the Church and Bible translators those evil evil men. Who up until just a few years ago? We were supporting and we were putting them on the air and and then of course Harold figured out that 1994 was actually the end of the church age and so and 2011 is going to be the end of the end and and all the rest that fun stuff and so now we're doing things differently.

So you've got These churchmen and Bible translators and since they don't like what we believe then they change the Bible now. Of course the New American Standard Which likewise reads at Galatians 2 16 a way that he would find Improper was translated long before Harold camping had a clue about any of this stuff and so how we could dislike this is Difficult really to understand.

The New American Standard says nevertheless knowing that man is not justified by works the law. This is Galatians 2 16 by the way but through faith in Christ Jesus. Even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of law since by The works of law no flesh will be justified.

Now.

We have someone here who who indicates that he has studied a little Greek. Well, there are few things in life that I have discovered that are more dangerous Than people who have studied a little Greek.

That's like a taking your taxes to someone who has studied a little tax law. The result can be rather devastating and embarrassing and that's the case here. Mr Hoff doesn't know what he's talking about.

He certainly is not a Greek scholar of any rank whatsoever and His comments demonstrate that he only understands enough about Greek to be able to identify the genitive form. But not to translate the genitive form.

I've taught Greek a number of times both on the beginning level and then Greek exegesis and one of the things I love doing Because I like torturing people a little bit. It says as as the the poor students are Crunching along in in first-year Greek and they're they're just they're learning the nominative and the genitive and and the dative and the accusative and evocative and they're they're struggling with these forms and they're just starting to get into verbs and and You know all the rest that stuff and they're they're starting to feel like they're getting somewhere, you know.

Right then I I like to point out to them now you all may be thinking that You are getting along because now you can recognize a a genitive form. The problem is there are many ways of translating the genitive in fact if you use the 5k system and I was I've learned on the 8k system and that is you split the ablative off from the genitive and You had lock of instrumental and dative in the Greek language.

You have those five forms. But in the 8k system you identify different uses if you put the ablative together with the genitive in the 5k system. There are at least at least.

24.

Major translational categories for that particular form. And when I'm talking about this I'm talking about you can have a possessive genitive. You can have in this case what we'll be talking about is the subjective and objective genitive and you have genitives with prepositions and you throw all the ablative stuff in and.

Now you've got separation and origin and source and all this stuff. Okay, and so I like throwing that out to first-year students so they realize you need to do second year as well and Unfortunately, mr. Hoff didn't do second year.

Maybe he didn't finish first year either. I don't know because when he sits there and says well. This is very simple. It's very easy to see he obviously is clueless as to what he's talking about. He has no idea what he's talking about.

The reason being that if you pick up any meaningful commentary on Galatians chapter 2 You will discover that either there or in the same commentary series on on Romans or wherever it might be this Phrase faith of Jesus Christ now Jesus Christ.

Yes, who Chris do is in the genitive? All right, and so the the faith for example in Galatians 2 16 faith is in the genitive as well. But that's primarily because it's being used the preposition use genitive here do so the question is when you look at this phrase faith of Jesus Christ.

What is that communicating? What is that telling us? Now if you would like to have a nice discussion of the differences these things you can pick up the basics of New Testament Syntax by Dan Wallace and intermediate Greek grammar.

You'll see discussion of this on pages 57 and following.

And.

I'm not gonna go through all that right now because I already see people in channel who are saying they're falling asleep and and They're falling off their chairs and you can tell the folks who you know.

Want to get deep and the folks that just want to be entertained and and that's just sort of how that works. But what. The easiest way to remember the the distinction is Is when you encounter?

I.

How you doing? Coughing a lot, huh. Poor thing. I'm sorry. It's okay. You. Well, we'll. We'll get you a glass of water something like that.

In.

When you hear the phrase The love of Christ compels us when you hear someone talking along those lines. What is that the love of Christ is? That the love that we have for Christ. Or is that a love that comes from Christ is?

He the object of the love or the subject of love those are two kinds of genitives and they're called the objective or subjective genitive and As a result of that You will see differences in translations.

There are translations that render Galatians 2 in such a way as to is to Communicate the idea That it is the and these people would not see it as the faith of Christ but as the faithfulness of Christ and.

So there are those who would argue that. You should take this and you should translate it. So that that Christ is the subject the subjective genitive. He's this is his faith or Faithfulness. Now by the way, this doesn't Completely address the fact.

That there are still passages where it is clearly faith that has Christ as the as its object. We are put to believe in Christ. There's no question about that. And so it really doesn't substantiate the point that the camping nights are making anyways.

But be as it may in regards to what mr. Hoff said. It is not true that just looking at this genitive you see genitive and go of. The the question is this is a subjective or objective genitive and I took the time and the God who justifies to go through and And quote different sides on this.

This is I think primarily in the exegesis of Romans, but it comes over here to Galatians and you can present This this entire thing. I'm just watching the channel here and there's this web user and you can always tell when web user comes in during the dividing line.

It's somebody who wants to throw something out in the program. I guess Armstrong has written an open letter or something like that. No, I don't read Dave's Dave site. Last I just noticed he's got pictures on it.

That's all I see. I just it's just there's no reason to do so. Anyway, so I go back to this. I've addressed this and the whole reason I wanted to bring this up is What we're seeing in the development of family radio is the beginning of a cult.

It's the beginning of a cult now, I don't know if this Hoff guy or any of these other people are going to have the The ability to hold this cult together when camping dies you always have to have a charismatic second-generation leader and I don't see one on the on the horizon.

And so I would imagine it's going to fracture and and go lots of different ways. But you this is the beginning of a cult and if you want to see cultic thinking here it is. Here's here's oh, he's willing to come on to the DL.

Yeah, right now he is sure Here is the beginning of a cultic of cultic thinking it is the certainty of ignorance. The certainty of ignorance. What do I mean by that?

Well.

Here's the guy who claims he knows some stuff. Plainly doesn't but he claims he knows some stuff and what he does is he offers to his followers? Certainty. But it's a certainty based upon ignorance. It's a certainty based upon ignorance.

And so what he offers is well, the Greek is plain and The the church wants to hide this and the church wants you to not know this and We're the only ones are going to tell you this and that makes us special and therefore you should trust us with all the other things that.

Well, you really can't verify and that's how they get their foot in the door. That's when the you know when the Jehovah's Witnesses Come knocking on your door. They need to get a foot in the door. How do they do that?

They do that by raising issues or they can give you the certain the certainty based upon ignorance. If They see a cross around your house, then they'll start talking about how they know That Jesus was not crucified on a cross.

He was Impaled on a stake. Or if they come by during the holiday season, then they will they will give you their their nice.

Simple.

Straightforward stuff. About how all holidays are pagan and and you're worshiping a tree and and all the rest of this stuff and and so they'll give you That that certainty of ignorance and now in here we see it in the same thing in regards to Harold camping and the campingites and his whole movement and his the second generation coming up these people that Certainly to be able to be to be Given the opportunity to teach within the camping movement right now.

You need to have campings approval. It's small enough anyway, and So you've got this this incipient King James only ism. If you don't have the King James go out and buy a King James, you know. These modern Bibles have changed it these people's want to change the Bible.

You know, we're used to hearing that from King James only folks and honestly after a while you you watch all this King James only stuff you read their stuff you listen to them and eventually it just becomes so old.

It's repeated so often and it never has a foundation to it. You just stop really paying a whole lot of attention to it. But now here you see it in amongst the campingites and You need to have the King James Bible because the King James Bible will give you this.

You know this certainty in this viewpoint and all the rest that stuff and so there you there you have Taking something that that anyone who reads the language knows there is an issue. Regarding the translation of the objective and subjective genitive and what does that mean and There are people on both sides of that, you know, Dan Wallace argues for one thing Murray argues for another thing and and I like I said, I address those in the God who justifies you can take a look at.

That it does get a little bit beyond what you can do real well on a on a broadcast like this. But it you can look at it you can examine it and you can make your decisions. But this is the misuse of the original language that you see in cults.

It's like it reminds me very much of Joseph Smith. In fact Harold camping reminds me of Joseph Smith only in the sense. I heard I'm sure Joseph Smith was a significantly significantly more Interesting speaker to listen to then herald camping is but as far as the as the Mannerisms of creating this this group.

Every first generation leader has to claim for himself Some sort of authority now that camping is very careful. I haven't had any visions. I haven't had any dreams. So what he does is he creates the the impression of Biblical knowledge and he certainly knows.

You know the the Bible he certainly read the Bible many times over but he does not know the original language of the Bible does not seem to to be concerned about anything like that at all and What he does is he he crushes dissent?

Through the use of that little little button that he's got. Because when you try to call in when you if you try to debate with him at all. He's just simply going to let you go to a certain point and then you're gone.

No more does anybody hear you and he can just rattle on for the next, you know, 15 minutes and by the time if you are even put back on and remember that sort of mini debate that Chris Arnson did with him where he Just kept putting Chris back on over and over and over again and Chris got to say a lot of important things.

That was extremely unusual that generally does not happen at all. But still you only get it's not much of a debate when you get 10 seconds and the other person gets 10 minutes. You know, that's not real fair.

And so that's how he creates the the persona of A Bible teacher who cannot be challenged and so then he can say we're just we're just talking about what the Bible says. And we simply are willing to be corrected by the Bible and we draw everything that we believe from the Bible and if I were to say that I was Receiving dreams and visions then you would realize that I am a false teacher.

But I am NOT. I am just looking at what the Bible says and so that's. That's what they want. Hey, look Summer there. They're saying we want summer in the channel. So they they don't they're not I Guess they don't want me anymore.

And so if you'd like to you know, just take over here in a second after the break Debbie. That'd be fine. Trying to help people. How do I get treated anyway? That's what he's doing. And and that's that's how it's functioning and and that's how he's creating the persona that he's creating and all all the rest that need.

Fun wonderful stuff. Anyway, I've seen all sorts of stuff going by. On the on the thing here my proposal you all say how you want to be on divine line webcasts. Let me talk. I heard a great example that last night.

I think it's possible to do this even in our case. So I'm posing this how about if I come on and we talked for the whole hour in a similar manner To your almost half hour long discussion yesterday with Jonathan.

Oh. They've heard our nice little discussion with Jonathan and Yeah, okay. Anyway, well, I guess we have to go read that and just go. Hmm. Anyway, we're gonna take our break and then I'm going to be joined the average age of the program is going to decrease by 50 or more actually it's more than 50 because I was.

That's my math isn't so good. But then again, I'm not cast somewhere figured.

So.

We're gonna take our break and then I'm going to be joined by my daughter's summer and we're going to chat and Who knows maybe even take a phone call or something, but we're gonna take our break. Eight seven seven seven five three three.

Three four one. We'll be right back.

KFAX, Family Radio, and the Upcoming Interview

Today.

So many stuff strong and true fall away.

Convictions once held and died for among Bible-believing Protestants are now being reconsidered with the advent of the recent Auburn Avenue movement. Is there currently a common basis for dialogue between Roman Catholics and Protestants?

Were the signers of ECT correct in their ecumenical efforts and all of the reformed scholars who opposed them in error? Does Trinitarian baptism make one a member of the new covenant our Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Join us in Los Angeles, California on November 5th 2004 for a full three hours of moderated debate between dr James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and Douglas Wilson of the Auburn Avenue movement and new st Andrews College as these topics are debated between two of the most respected representatives of the opposing viewpoints.

Additional information and tickets can be ordered at a omen org. That's www .a o m i n dot o r g. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God.

The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church. The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day.

The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045. Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix.

You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at Prbc .org. Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Justification, the Gospel, and the National Conference

At the heart of the controversy between Roman Catholic and Reformation theology is the nature of justification itself. It is a debate not merely about how or when or by what means a person is justified.

But about the very meaning of justification and the gospel of Jesus Christ. What's a debate reserved for Roman Catholics and the Reformers. The doctrine of justification is now being challenged from within the walls of reformed evangelicalism itself.

Join Alpha and Omega ministries as we embark on our first national conference and confront this very issue. Justification the heart of the gospel with pastor and co-author of Holy Scripture the ground and pillar of our faith David King the president of the Southern Baptist Conventions Founders Conference Tom Askell New Testament Research Ministries founder and author of evangelical answers Eric Svensson.

The founder of the Spurgeon Archive and executive director of grace to you Philip Johnson Nationally renowned Reformed Christian artist Steve camp and the founder of Alpha Omega ministries and author. Dr. James White.

Join us at the Los Angeles, California LAX Sheraton ballroom on November 6 2004 beginning at 845 a .m. Seating is limited. So order your tickets now at a omen org. That's www .aomin .org. I looked over and both summer and I were.

What do you call that? Is that karaoke when you're. Well, no karaoke is when you actually sing we were laying. What was it? Lip-syncing that didn't sound good. Try that again Lip-syncing, okay. Well, alright, that's what it was.

Hey, this is really weird. Right as I went into the break, I noticed a little mail thing. You know how little thing shows up in your system tray when you've got mail and Somebody had asked at church last night.

So, how is it that summer is going to be interviewed on KFAX in San Francisco, and I hadn't asked them. I hadn't actually taken the time to say by the way, how did you know that about what happened my daughter?

And so I get this email and the email is from re and Now we know why we're gonna be on KFX in a while for those of you who haven't read the blog Summers with me now. We're gonna make sure that the phones are working and the microphones working and the headphones are working and we're gonna chat for a while, but Also at 630 this evening so two hours from right now.

We are going to be on KFAX for about half an hour. To also talk about the same situation and we are going to webcast that so if when you're done listening then we're gonna go bye-bye for about an hour and 20 minutes and then we'll probably put pre feed music on or something like that and Then you can listen to the interview if you would like.

You know at 630 Pacific Time which would be 930 Eastern Time if you're listening. Anyway, we get an email right during the program. It says hi, dr White. I was glad to read in your blog today that your daughter will be interviewed on KFAX.

Earlier in the week I saw her Reflections and her original failed assignment on the blog and I was amazed by her courage and maturity as well as the other foolishness Of her teacher and the administrators who apparently support the teacher.

I prayed both out and showed them to my own 15 year old public school student daughter as an example of both the absurdity of Postmodernism and as someone her age taking such a firm stand against the subversion of truth.

Incidentally my daughter and I met your daughter a couple of years ago when she and I were in Phoenix for a gymnastics meet. You were traveling at the time. But I was the case with me, isn't it? But we met your wife and kids at the Sunday morning service at PR BC.

And so it says anyway, I emailed KFAX the link to your blog and the suggestion that they discussed this incident on their lifeline broadcast. I got a quick response that day from the producer PJ Oliver that she was trying to contact you and that was last I heard Of it until I read your update today.

I definitely plan to be listening. So there's there's the connection. That's how it happened is. That blog I tell you that blog gets gets us into so much trouble. That's and that's a that's a good thing.

That's that's okay. So I'm gonna swing back here because you know, it's really hard to talk to people when you can't see them. And so now I can see you. Hi summer. How are you?

I.

You've got a cold, don't you? Yes. I'm sorry. Because you're gonna be like going and you don't have a little cough button see that thing up here. This is my cough button. Oh, yeah, so if watch it watch what happens.

And then I can put back on them and then things like then that cool. Okay, well, you know the last time you were on You were considerably Smaller than you are now. Do you remember that? I remember being nervous.

Nervous do you remember where it was? It was in a really large building at 24th Street in Camelback. He was and we were still on on the radio station and you and Josh were on and Warren was there. That's right.