Continuationism, Cessationism

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:36

533 -341 will be the phone number. We'll take some calls later on, depending. I assume we'll get to that, because I pretty much only have one thing up front here.

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Definitely a subject that is not normally on my radar screen, but it's on everybody's radar screen right now.

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So decided we would talk about it. As most of you know, on Tuesday, I did comment briefly at the end of the program on the strange fire controversy, the issues raised by that.

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And then, after the program, I eventually downloaded and listened to, had some problems technically on my end, but I eventually had to listen to it on my phone, ironically.

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Which means it really isn't a phone, right? But anyway, it's my little handheld computer device that once in a while uses a phone, but normally

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I use it for other things. Anyways, I listened to the program from Tuesday, The Line of Fire, with Michael Brown.

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Because we had commented on the program on Monday, when Phil Johnson was on with Michael Brown, and their rather intriguing encounter, and the parlay that was there, the sword fight that took place.

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And listening to the program, I was really very, very interested by the first caller.

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The first caller to the program. And I thought, you know what? I think a lot of folks would at least find it interesting for me to interact with the argumentation that was put forward.

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Because, not only is it Michael's argumentation for continuationism, but the caller is a

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Master Seminary grad, who is now a charismatic. And it might help to even define what charismatic means, and a few things like that.

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So, we're going to start off with that, and then take your phone calls on, well, whatever issues you might want to address today, as long as they are somewhat relevant to the subject.

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And will be helpful to the people who are listening. Now, I want to start off, right before, just a matter of, what, 30 seconds, before going to the first phone call.

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Michael made a comment that I wanted to address. So, let's listen to this, and yeah,

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I'll go ahead and pick up the speed a little bit. I don't care if people whine about it.

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It's certainly not that fast. I mean, 1 .2, I mean, okay, here.

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Let me show you something here. Here is, this is what I listen to it as, when

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I'm queuing stuff up. Okay, so that's how you find stuff.

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Alright, so here's that same section at the speed that I'm actually playing it at now.

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See, I mean, that's fully understandable.

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Absolutely no whiners allowed. We're going to put a whiner filter on the email address, if you think 1 .2

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is too fast. It just allows us to get through a little bit more. In the program, here's what he said. Look, it just happened to be the day that these three young ladies were scheduled to be on the air with me as we bring on as many missionaries as possible.

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And, trust me, I could do this all day, all night, with our missionaries around the world. You'd be blown away. This is all the fruit of revival.

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And people say, what's the fruit? This is the fruit. People turn to Jesus, and then they give their lives to help a hurting and dying world.

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It's so grievous to me that, rather than rejoicing in that, someone will say, yeah, but I saw someone shaking on this video. Where did the

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Bible ever tell us to judge by whether someone's shaking or not? Well, let's start there.

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That was one of the issues that came up the day before. And I think that Michael needs to understand.

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I doubt that I could have even stayed in the room in Brownsville during most of what

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I have seen. Now, Michael posted a link to some of his preaching there.

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I watched that. Way outside my experience as far as public worship is concerned.

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But I at least appreciated the message. There was certainly much passion involved with it.

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But I've seen other things. And I think most people, well, not most people, some people have seen a truly troubling video.

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It is available on YouTube. It's called The Testimony of Allison Ward, 18 August 1995, Brownsville Assembly of God, Pensacola, Florida.

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I assume that this may be in the background of what

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Michael was saying. I'm not going to play it. I've got it on a different computer here. In fact, I'm going to mute this computer while I just...

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If you look that up, if you look up Brownsville Revival Testimony on YouTube, you will be able to see this.

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And there is a 19 -year -old girl. And she honestly looks like she has palsy.

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Like she has a disease. But according to the head of the

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Brownsville Revival, the pastor of the church, this is what happens when the power of God comes upon her. She becomes less functional, less capable of, evidently, ministry and things like that, but more spiritual in the process.

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And you need to understand, when we see things like this, and Michael also,

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I think, needs to understand. I was mentioning to...

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we were talking in channel with a fellow who knows much about the ministry amongst

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Muslims in Iran. And he was pointing... he pointed me to...

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in fact, I have it right up here on the screen. He pointed me to a...

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we can't play YouTube videos on the stream, can we? Oh, interesting.

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I should have sent you the link to that so you could just pop that up and you could... because right at the beginning, you can see that.

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Well, I'm afraid of what might happen if we try that. But at the same time, we can always download it and then drop it in.

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So it displays just like a picture when you did the pictures from... Yeah, the pictures wouldn't help.

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No, no, it would actually play the video. Well, there it is. There it is. I just put it in channel.

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You can look at it. Well, I'm not going to do that in the middle of a live stream. I may be punchy.

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I ain't stupid. Well, we'll have to see if we can't do that in the future, because that would be a very useful thing to have.

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But anyways... Yes, unlike the government, I like to test things. You like to test things. And I have what's called back -out plans.

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Yeah, you've got back -out plans, and it didn't cost you $500 million, whatever it was, to create 50 million lines of bad code.

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And we want these people in charge of our health care. Yes, indeed, folks. Anyway, that's another subject.

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We were talking about the fact that there are government -sponsored websites in Iran that mock word -faith teachers,

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Iranian word -faith teachers, and put up pictures of the weird things going on.

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And I've seen this. I've seen Muslims posting stuff from not only Brownsville, but especially what's -his -majiggy -face, the really weird dude, where'd that guy go, you know,

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Bentley. No, Bentley. I've seen lots of people.

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And I've seen Muslims actually put up things. If this is what it means to get the Holy Spirit, don't ever get the

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Holy Spirit, because people are flopping around on the floor and barking like dogs and running in circles and doing all the rest of this stuff.

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And I'm sorry, I don't see that in the New Testament anywhere.

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Anywhere. What I do see in the

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New Testament is the presence of the Holy Spirit brings about something called sofranosmos.

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Sofranosmos. That's the term for discipline. The Spirit brings order.

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The Spirit brings a teachable spirit, an individual who is focused upon God's truth and the application of God's truth and is in control of his faculties and his body and his desires.

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That's what the Spirit of God brings about. And I don't see that when

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I see these videos. And if Michael is going to say, it's just not my experience, but it was at Brownsville. I saw it.

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I've seen videos of it. Maybe it wasn't there that night. I don't know. But it doesn't look like discipline and self -control to me.

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Yes, sir? I get the feeling you're going to have a few comments. Okay. You just jarred some memories.

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When I was... Did you switch over to the RichCam? No, I didn't. That had to go.

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Why? Because my computer just couldn't handle you and me. Oh, sure. So I can just reach up here and turn that your direction.

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You could if you could reach. Oh, I could if I really wanted to. Anyways. But you're talking about the fruit of the

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Spirit, and I have to tell you that that was something that was strongly discouraged with me.

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We were to focus on the gifts. It was the gifts you were interested in.

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The fruit of the Spirit, that was not a big deal.

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As the manifestations. Yeah. Not the daily application. Yeah. I mean, that just wasn't important.

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It really wasn't. And so you're focusing on something that there...

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I don't know where Michael Brown would be on this, but my experience was you're not to worry about any of that.

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Yeah. Well, I'll have some more comments to make on this, but let me just point you to one particular text, and I'm going to be contrasting this with one of the texts that the caller brings up.

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When Paul wrote to Timothy, evidently there is some issue with Timothy in regards to fear, maybe the fear of the face of men, maybe fearing the weight of the calling that is his.

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And so you have that tremendous exhortation at the beginning of the second epistle to Timothy.

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Do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me as a prisoner, but join with me in suffering the gospel from the power of God, who has saved us, calls us to a holy calling.

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That beautiful text that I've memorized when I was in high school. But right before that, you have these words.

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For this reason, I remind you to kindle afresh, and the term kindle there has nothing to do with electronic readers.

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It's the old meaning of the word, which means to, you know, when the fire is starting to go out, you poke around it, and you get more oxygen down to it, and you reignite the fire.

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Kindle afresh the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. Now, immediately reformed folks go, no, we don't touch each other.

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What do you mean laying on of hands? What's that? But the assumption on the other side is, ah, here you go.

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This is, here's the spiritual gifts. Well, what are these spiritual gifts? Is this speaking in tongues?

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Is this some kind of miraculous capacity to do whatever? The next line says, for God has not given us a spirit of timidity.

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Fear, cowardice, I think would be, I think timidity might be a little bit weak there.

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Dalias, pretty strong, at least in secular usage. But contrast that, a law, aversive use of the law, but of power, dunameos, the standard term that's used there.

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Love, agapes, and sofranosmos, discipline, sound mind, self -control.

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The result of this gift, the gift of God, and of course that term is kadasma, kadasmatu theyu.

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That's where charismatic comes from. Kadasma is the gift, the gifts, in the plural form.

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And so here is the gift. The gift results in power, love, and discipline.

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Now, it seems, as we're going to hear in a moment, that power in the mind of the charismatic means speaking in tongues.

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And here is where I do have to differentiate myself. And again, maybe I'm out to lunch here.

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But I mentioned, I think I mentioned, if I didn't, I'll mention now, for the sake of full explanation here.

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I assumed until, I don't know, about 10, 12 years ago, maybe a little bit more, that a cessationist is one who believes that the miraculous sign gifts ceased when the purpose for which they were given was fulfilled.

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Now, could we at least agree that there is nothing unbiblical, there is nothing illogical about the idea that the

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Spirit of God could give gifts for a particular period of time and then withdraw them?

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There will be some people saying, no, no, no, no, it can't be done. Once it's given, it's got to be all the way to the end of the church age. Wait a minute. Did not the

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Spirit give certain gifts in the building of the tabernacle? The Holy Spirit would come upon a person and give them the capacity to do a kind of working in the production of the materials in the tabernacle that they did not possess in of themselves.

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Now, did they continue to have that the rest of their life? I don't think there's any evidence they did. So, it is logical, it is rational, there's not a reading into the text, or something like that, to say the

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Holy Spirit of God could give someone a gift for a particular period of time, for a particular purpose, and then withdraw it.

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It doesn't have to continue with the rest of their life. If for God's purpose, and I've said this, if God had a purpose in what he did with Philip, of causing a person on the mission field to be able to communicate the gospel in a way that person would not naturally have that capacity to do,

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I am going to be the last person on the planet to say that that's an impossibility. God has the ability to do those things.

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You bet. The question is the normative nature of these things, because that's what the charismatic movement is about.

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It's not the assertion that these things are unusual, but that they're usual, that they're the way it should be.

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That's what gives the whole movement what little coherence it has. So, the point is that I understood cessationism, and I still understand cessationism, to be the idea that there were particular miraculous sign gifts.

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They were a sign. And I'm using that term specifically because it's a biblical term.

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Remember the signs in the Gospel of John? This sign Jesus did, etc.,

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etc.? Well, it is the term semion in Greek.

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And that appears in Paul's discussion of this very issue in 1

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Corinthians chapter 14. There are sign gifts. Alright?

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So, with that in mind, my understanding was that those gifts that had a specific purpose in the apostolic period, when that purpose was fulfilled, they were withdrawn because there would be no reason to continue them.

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God is a God of order, the church is a place of order, and there would be no reason for the giving of gifts that would have no longer the purpose that they originally had.

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Then I discovered that there is a stricter form of cessationism.

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Now, if there's a stricter form of cessationism, does that make me a moderate continuationist? Rich just fell out of the chair.

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That may be a work of the Spirit as well. I don't know. I haven't seen that one before.

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But seriously, I discovered that amongst some Reformed folks, even believing the idea that the

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Spirit of God gifts men in particular ways for particular ministries, there are people who say, that doesn't even happen.

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Now, I believe that there is such a thing as a gift of discernment. I believe that there are people who are gifted by God to have special ministries within the body for the edification.

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It's always for the edification of the body. It's never for the edification of self. That's one of the big problems I have with so much of the expression of the charismatic movement.

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It's self -edifying, not bodily edifying. But I do clearly believe that the

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Spirit of God gives gifts. I believe the Spirit of God gave particular gifts to many of the speakers at the

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Strange Fire Conference to be able to stand before God's people and handle God's Word of Right and to have insights into the

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Word of God and be able to explain the Word of God. I think that's a spiritual gift. I think that's something that the Spirit of God, I think the whole discussion, the

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Spirit gives the gifts as He wills. That's one of the evidences of the personality of the

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Holy Spirit, that He has a will. And also that the Spirit of God is working in accordance with the will of the

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Triune God in the accomplishment of that divine will. That He gives the gifts as He wills. And so, there are people who are given gifts, the ability,

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I've met people who just have such an incredible capacity to love and to patiently work with children that I don't have.

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I don't have that gift. I've met people who,

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I was listening to a church history lecture this morning and was reminded of the fact that Tertullian wrote a book on patience because he said,

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I don't have any, so I need to write a book on it so that I might obtain some. I can be an impatient person at times, and yet I've met others who just, the

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Spirit of God works in their life, even in a special way, not just simply, all

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Christians should be developing patience, but then there are some people who just have, they love acting in such a way and ministering in such a way.

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So, if that is what, if cessationism means there are no gifts of the

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Spirit, then I'm not a cessationist. But that's not how I understood it. When I say something has ceased, and I saw people in Twitter going nuts, one guy was just sort of weird anyways, but just going nuts on Tuesday, saying, oh, you don't believe the

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Holy Spirit works anymore. No, in no way, shape, or form. I mean,

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I have seen the Holy Spirit work. I could sit here and talk to you about supernatural experiences

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I have had, but I don't do that, because I don't believe that my personal experience can be the foundation upon which someone else is to base their theology or their activities, their actions.

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And I've just seen it abused far too many times to even start going there, but I can tell you that the

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Holy Spirit is active in this world. And I've experienced the

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Holy Spirit's ministry in that way, in guidance and direction. I mean,

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Jesus promised the Spirit would give you the words to say, and there have been times that's the only way I got said what

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I needed to get said. So that's not an issue to me.

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So if cessationism is actually the cessation of all the ministry of the Spirit, and I don't know almost anybody who takes that view, or the giving of any gifts at all, well, then

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I'm not a cessationist. But I'm using the term cessationism in contrast to continuationism in regards to the specific sign gifts, the miraculous sign gifts that set the apostles apart.

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Now, we can then have a real interesting discussion about, well, but did they continue into the early church?

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Well, some people would say no, some people would say yes. I can tell you one thing. Speaking in tongues is not limited to Christians.

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Never has been at all. It is not unknown in many of the world's religions, in ecstatic utterances, even from Sufi Muslims to Buddhists and Hindus and all sorts of pagan religions all had ecstatic speech.

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That was nothing new. So that kind of thing, you can't say, ah, see, that must be the

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Spirit. How do you know that? How do you know that? There has to be a standard for that.

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And there were people in the early church. One of the most well -known examples of an early charismatic movement was the

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Montanist movement at the beginning of the 3rd century. And even

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Tertullian got brought into Montanism.

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And it was primarily a reaction against a developing, in the minds of many, dead orthodoxy.

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But we would say, well, Montanists claimed to be the incarnation of the

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Holy Spirit. So, I mean, really? But they spoke in tongues and they were very holy.

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And, again, there has to be a standard by which these things are judged.

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So when I speak of continuationism, cessationism, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that particular aspect of things.

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Well, I'm not going to get anywhere. I've been talking way too much. But at least I've got some background here.

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All right, let's listen to this phone call. To the phones, Rob in Atlanta. Thanks so much for calling the line of fire.

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Hey, thanks, Michael. Thanks for having me on. You bet. Wanted to chat about some things that came up yesterday.

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Adrian Warnock is a personal friend of mine. I was excited to hear him on the radio yesterday and get introduced to your show. And as we were chatting, even before the show and even after the show,

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Michael, I think one of the things that really concerns me the most, as a graduate of John MacArthur Seminary, and as a guy who used to work on staff at the church with him, as a guy who has had somewhat of a connection and friendship with him since the late 80s when he would come over to Georgia to do pastor's conferences and things.

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Now, that sounds like a pretty good resume, being associated with the

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Master's Seminary and so on and so forth. So that's why I found this particularly interesting.

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The deep concern for me is the inconsistency in which the understanding of exegesis and hermeneutics is applied when it comes to the things of the charismatic.

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Now, that's a serious allegation, that there is an inconsistency. You have to hear that allegation.

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You're not questioning someone's godliness. All of us have blind spots. All of us have inconsistencies.

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I have said many times, obviously, as a Reformed Baptist, I believe my dear, beloved

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Presbyterian brethren, and I mean brethren in the fullest sense, my fellow followers of Jesus Christ, I think they've got a blind spot when it comes to kids.

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When I hear them saying something along the lines of, well, what are you supposed to tell your kids? It seems to me to be an emotional blind spot.

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And I've made that accusation. It's not meant in a negative way in the sense of accusation.

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It's the only way we can talk with one another when we have disagreements. We have to say, are you really looking at this, brother? We all have blind spots.

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I'm sure I have mine. And they're very, very difficult to see. They're very, very difficult to see. And we have to listen with respect to find out where they are.

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So it's a serious accusation that's being made here. To give you an example, if I were to have turned in a paper, an exegetical paper in my

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Hebrew class at the Master's Seminary that made a connection between Leviticus 13 and the charismatic gifts,

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I would have gotten an F. And that's kind of shocking to me, I think, that the same rules of exegesis and hermeneutics that were taught at the seminary are not fundamentally and consistently applied across the board.

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In other words, there's almost a double hermeneutic. There's an inconsistent approach to the scriptures. I use the same principles of hermeneutics and exegesis that I was taught there.

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And in my study of Romans 1, when I came to, for probably the third or fourth time, Romans 1, verse 16 on the gospel and the power of God to save those who believe,

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I suddenly found myself a charismatic because I could not argue with what the actual meaning of the power of God is.

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Now, as soon as I heard that, I was like, well, wait a minute, what text are you talking about?

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You're talking about Romans 1, verse 16, the power of God and salvation? And that's what he said, Romans 1, verse 16.

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I couldn't argue with the meaning of the word power there. And I just want to go, what?

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Romans 1, verse 16 is talking about the power of God and salvation, not speaking in tongues. What does he understand cessationism to mean?

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That God exercises no power? That the spirit of God is not active in saving his people?

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I mean, none of these things are even slightly relevant, as I understand it, to the concept of cessationism or continuationism or the existence of sign gifts and speaking in ecstatic speech.

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And it's the farthest thing, exegetically, from Paul's mind to be thinking about that in Romans 1.

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That's not an application of TMS -taught exegetical methodology by any stretch of the imagination.

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I'm just completely lost at that point to understand how someone could come to that kind of conclusion.

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I don't get it. Maybe someone can explain that to me, but I don't get it.

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And if we look in verse 4, Jesus was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead.

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That same power that raises him from the dead empowers us to live a holy life and empowers us to be witnesses and, of course, is tied in with the demonstration of the spirit.

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And let me just say this. He goes on from there without explaining what he just said. I don't disagree with any of that, but I cannot see how it has anything to do at all with speaking in tongues.

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What does that have to do with speaking in tongues? How is ecstatic speech related to the declaration that Jesus is the

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Son of God by the resurrection of the dead by the power of God? Where is the connection there? I missed it. I mean, obviously, in Michael's mind it exists.

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In this caller's mind it exists. I don't see it. Where is it? It's not a part of the text.

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It's not in Romans 1. And especially for Michael to make these kind of connections when he prides himself on his exe...

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Where's the exegesis here? I mean, I've read to you from 2

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Timothy 1 and the charisma that is referred to there power, love, discipline has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.

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Where's the connection? I don't see it. Don't get it. I had a long dialogue,

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Ron, with a cessationist someone who was actually at the John MacArthur conference and called to speak with me very much on Pastor MacArthur's side of things but very much honoring me and wanting to talk.

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And he said, look, Michael, when people hear charismatic they're thinking of some TV preacher. Well, I don't think like that.

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In other words, that's not my world. Well, Michael, here's where a lot of us and you know my heart you know that we have sat and worked together and you know where I'm coming from.

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This is where a lot of people are struggling with you right now. It is your world.

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You're in those churches. We see the videos of you behind the same pulpit as we see the lady sitting there with palsy.

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It is your world. Now, I'm not saying that you have to know everybody who claims to be charismatic because I don't know everybody who claims to be

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Reformed. Alright? But if someone was talking about the Reformed Baptist movement

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I wouldn't be able to sit there and go, well, it's not my world. Well, yeah, actually it is. And the

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Reformed world, well, at least the biblically conservative Reformed world, yeah, that is my world.

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And so I can't just... I don't think, honestly, that we're being unfair when the internet or media as a whole anymore it's all melding into one anymore is filled with this kind of stuff.

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It's filled with this kind of egregious people running with flags through churches and spinning like tops and making all sorts of weird, strange noises.

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It's there. And you say, well,

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I speak against the excesses all the time. Okay, but on what basis? This is the real concern,

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Michael. If I was going to address him directly I should have written to him and said I was.

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But hopefully he'll listen. This is where a lot of people are going. On what basis do you discern?

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You know, you, I think rightly, said, you know, when

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Dr. MacArthur says there are no charismatic works of mercy out there that was a big overreach.

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It's really easy to refute. And you refuted it quite well at the beginning of the program. Just brought people in. Oh, this is what we do. You know, there you go.

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Okay. I can admit that one easily. What at Brownsville was wrong,

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Michael? What did you see there that was not the spirit of God?

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Or was it all the spirit of God? How about the laughing revivals? What about those?

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What about people who lose control of themselves rather than gain control of themselves under this spirit?

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How do you judge? See, I think what most people are saying is there is a fundamental epistemological problem that you have because if you have a basis in your own experience that goes in line with their experience, how then can you judge them without judging yourself?

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Instead of having an objective standard, and I know you say you have an objective standard. Okay. Then apply it to Brownsville.

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Can you do so? Can you say, oh yeah, there was stuff at Brownsville that was just way out of league. Way out of league.

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Can you say that? That's one of the questions a lot of people are asking. So I don't think like that.

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So when we say charismatic, we simply mean someone who believes in the ongoing manifestation of the gifts and the power of the spirit for today.

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That God still heals as he did then. That he still gives gifts of tongues or prophecy or things like that for the glory of God.

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Okay. So there you have healing, tongues, and gifts of prophecy. All right.

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So how do you judge that? You believe in Sola Scriptura. How do you judge prophetic words?

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By the Bible. But if it says thus saith the Lord, how do you judge that? What's the basis?

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Should that not be the 28th book of the New Testament? Or is this a lower level of inspiration? If it's not inspiration, then what is it?

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If it's not coming from the spirit, what is it? And even in the healing that was sometimes manifested by the apostles, it was not always manifested by the apostles, was it?

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Remember the co -worker of Paul's? God saved me from great sorrow by lifting up.

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Why didn't Paul just heal him? He had the gifts, right? That's not how it ever worked.

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So I know that you're willing to say, yeah, Creflo dollar, though I haven't heard the specifics of what

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Creflo dollar, what it is. Well, all the prosperity message. Okay. All right. How about throwing the

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Holy Spirit around with Benny Hinn? How about the teachings of Copeland and Hagin?

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You see, what would really help, Michael, is if we had some real specifics in regards to these leading people who to the rest of us, they're all we see.

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Now that's partly on us. We have to recognize just because we see them doesn't mean there aren't other people.

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You know, I mean, it's sort of like when people looked at the Crystal Cathedral and it had the name Reformed in it someplace as if that somehow represented actual

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Reformed theology. We're like, no, no, no, wrong planet. No. Well, we were asking people to make distinctions there.

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We need to be able to do the same thing. We need to be able to do the same thing. Recognize that.

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Okay, Benny Hinn, he's out there. But the point is, here's the question for you,

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Michael, in your average church that would self -identify as charismatic, as specifically charismatic, do you find discernment in a recognition that those men, all the word faith people, all of them, all of them that are making millions of bucks off of other people's labors and flying around in jets and doing all the rest of this kind of stuff, do you find discernment that those people are false teachers?

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If not, how is it the Holy Spirit doesn't give them discernment on that matter? How can the

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Holy Spirit give you a prayer language but not give you discernment to understand what the gospel is? That would be a question I would ask.

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And the edification of the body. That's what we're talking about. Whether someone shouts in worship or not is secondary.

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We certainly don't associate it with a carnal prosperity message. We simply say the power of God to back the message of Jesus and to empower us to live for Him remains steady through the ages according to what is written in Scripture.

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Now, I obviously dispute the connection. It's in your mind. Okay, fine. But you need to recognize that I see a massive distinction between the power of God to live a godly life and to empower the proclamation of the gospel and saying, thus saith the

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Lord, or speaking in tongues, or trying to go into a hospital and running around the floors trying to raise people up from their sickbeds, which

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I, as a former hospital chaplain, never saw anybody actually trying to do. They wouldn't have lasted too long in the hospital anyways unless they were being successful, which

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I've never seen either. But then the topic shifts a little bit and it gets rather interesting.

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Michael, what would be your response then, for example, to the claim that I would have had, let's just say 10 years ago when

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I was on that side of things, that the power, the signs, the gifts are only for authenticating the message of the gospel only when the apostolic team was preaching?

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What would be your response to that? Okay, the only thing I wish that there had been added to that would be to delineate the specific sign gifts because I'm not hearing, and I'm, again, haven't had even a chance to do so,

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I am certain, I am just going to say I am absolutely certain that there were a number of presentations at Strangefire that specifically made the delineations that I'm making in regards to the difference between sign gifts and the empowerment of the

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Spirit of God for the church to be able to pursue its ministry and things like that. I'm sure they were there. I'm sure that once I start listening

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I will run into all of that stuff just as I've delineated it. It wasn't there, but what's behind this is my understanding.

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And here's the understanding. Look at 1 Corinthians chapter 14. Unless you're driving, then you can't look at,

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I forbid you from looking at 1 Corinthians chapter 14. That's not allowed. Brethren, do not be children in your thinking, yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

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So, Paul is speaking to the church of Corinth. The church of Corinth has got major problems and yet they've got a whole lot of tongue speaking going on.

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Which is interesting to me. Then we have this strange quotation.

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1 Corinthians 14 .21 is a quotation of Isaiah 28 .11. It says, In the law it is written, interesting use of namas there, by the way, because it's actually prophets, but it gives you an idea of the citation methodology.

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By men of strange tongues, heteroglosos, in Greek, and by the lips of strangers,

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I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to me, says the Lord. Hmm.

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Well, now that's interesting. Because the interpretation given by the apostle is, so then tongues are for a semion, a sign.

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Not to those who believe, but to unbelievers. Who are the unbelievers?

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The Jewish people. I mean, that's what, that's what 1 Corinthians, or Isaiah 28 is about.

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And it's really, really interesting to me that when you go back to Isaiah 28, listen to the context.

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Listen to this. Verse 9. To whom would he teach knowledge, and to whom would he interpret the message?

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Those just weaned from milk, those just taken from the breast, for he says, order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there.

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Indeed, he will speak to this people through stammering lips and a foreign tongue. He who said to them, here is a rest, give rest to the weary, and here is repose, but they would not listen.

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So the word of the Lord to them will be, order on order, order on order, line on line, line on line, a little here, a little there, that they may go and stumble backward and be broken, snared, and taken captive.

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hear the word of the Lord, O scoffers, who rule this people who are in Jerusalem. Because you have said, we have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we have made a pact, the overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by.

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For we have made falsehood our refuge and have concealed ourselves with deception. Therefore, thus says the

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Lord God, listen to this, Isaiah 28, 16, Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.

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He who believes in it will not be disturbed. You know that verse, don't you? Oh yeah. This is messianic.

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This is talking about the ministry of the Messiah, the ministry of the church, laying in Zion that chief cornerstone.

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That's Jesus. So, Paul is drawing from this section and he's saying, indeed, he will speak to this people.

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Who is it? The people who rejected the Messiah. Now, this is where Michael and I would have another disagreement,

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I'm sure. But that nation ceased to exist in AD 70.

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It ceased to exist. It was wiped out. Oh, there's still a Jewish people today, of course.

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But the nation to whom Paul is saying, these words were addressed, to whom by men of strange tongues and by lips of strangers

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I will speak to this people and even so they will not listen to me, so then tongues are for a sign not to those who believe.

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Tongues aren't for believers, but for unbelievers. But prophecy, the foretelling of the word of God, not the prediction of future events, the foretelling of the word of God is for a sign not to unbelievers, but to those who believe.

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Therefore, if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues and ungifted men and unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

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But if all prophesy and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, because something's communicated to him.

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Paul's whole point is that you need to be mature and recognize that there is a purpose.

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There's a purpose in these things. So I think, if I understand the

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Master's Seminary position, I think this is the background to the question that was just asked by the caller.

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I'm pretty certain. I'm going to replay it now with that as the background so you can understand what the response then is from Michael Brown.

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Michael, what would be your response then, for example, to the claim that I would have had let's just say 10 years ago when

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I was on that side of things that the power, the signs, the gifts are only for authenticating the message of the gospel only when apostolic people, the apostolic team was preaching.

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What would be your response to that? I would first say that's not in the Bible. There's not a hint of that in the

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Bible. I think I just gave more than a hint. Okay. I think

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I just gave a little bit more than a hint of what the background is there. Michael may not understand what the argument is, but there it is.

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And the same spirit worked through Stephen and through Philip. It was a matter of authenticating the gospel which remains the issue today.

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I would agree and that's why I would not say it just had to do with apostles. It had to do with the apostolic age. It had to do with the proclamation of the gospel at that particular period of time up to the end of the existence of the people of Israel in AD 70.

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So, the fact that Stephen uses it or the fact that there's anything in that time period is still in that time period.

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The primary emphasis was not on authenticating the apostles, but authenticating the resurrection of Jesus. Agreed. But again, they're together.

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It's the apostles who are proclaiming the resurrection of Jesus. And even in the longer ending of Mark, which is obviously not the original ending of Mark, but it's recognized widely by the early church leaders and it's in the

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Peshitta, the Aramaic, these signs follow those who... Now, wait a minute, Michael.

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If it's not original, why are we referring to it? Okay, yeah, it has a lot of early references, but if you recognize it's not original, then, you know,

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I'm surprised that you would make reference to it to try to establish a doctrinal point. You don't make doctrinal points based upon textual variants where you've actually come to the conclusion that it's not original.

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I would never base anything out of Matthew 16, 9 -20, or John 7, 53, 8 -11, or so on and so forth, just for that very reason.

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Believed. It's certainly an early witness from the early church that these are signs that follow the believers that this is given.

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Here, it's quite explicit. Acts, the second chapter, says this. Peter says, in the last days. Now, he adds these words.

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They're not in the Hebrew in Joel 2. The Hebrew just says, v 'achari chayim, after this,

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God says, God will pour out His Spirit. Peter adds the words, in the last days, God says, and then speaks of this end time outpouring with dreams and visions and a display of the miraculous.

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This is for the last days. And then, when he finishes his message, after the people ask what they need to do, repent, and so on, he says, repent, be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus, for the forgiveness of sins, and you'll receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit. And then he says, for the promise, the promise of the Spirit and forgiveness is for you, and for your children, and for all that are far off, as many as the

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Lord, our God, will call. Exegetically, it's 100 % clear from the New Testament that the gifts continue until Jesus returns.

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In fact, Now, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. Um, the

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Spirit and the Spirit's ministry continues throughout the history of the

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Church. No question about it. That's not the argument. That's not even the issue. It's not even close to the issue. Unless, you begin with the assumption that the

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Spirit's presence will always have this exact same manifestation. And that's why

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I started, I don't know, half an hour ago, and said, now, we need to establish something here.

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And that is, the Spirit gives the gifts as He wills, and the Spirit can have a particular purpose in giving a gift at a particular point in time in Church history that does not continue past that point in time.

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So, I just dispute the idea that because the Spirit continues to minister and give gifts in the

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Church, means that the Spirit has to give all the gifts that the Spirit has ever given, because we come back to, the question is, are we told that something like tongues is a sign?

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And if it is, then did it have a purpose? Was there something special about the

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Apostolic Age? Evidently, some people would say, no, there isn't. I think that there was. And the question is, continuationism cannot simply say, well, we win by default unless you give us a specific text that says otherwise.

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I'm saying, let's just reason together here, brethren, can not the

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Holy Spirit have a particular purpose at a particular time as He did in giving the gifts to the building of the tabernacle, in giving particular gifts, and then no longer doing so?

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I would say continuationism needs to have a positive foundation. And as I read the

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New Testament, as I put it in as best a chronological order as I can put it into,

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I see a de -emphasis upon the miraculous in the sense of the externally observable sign gifts with the development of the

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New Testament canon. I see a decrease in emphasis upon that. Now, I didn't say

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I see a decrease in the emphasis of the work of the Spirit, because I personally think that the work of the

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Spirit of God in opening the heart and mind of a secular humanist in Western culture today and causing them to embrace

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Jesus Christ is far more miraculous than anybody jabbering away in an unknown tongue on TBN.

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There's no comparison between the two. None. So, we need to be careful about, well,

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I don't think there's any miraculous there. Well, you better hope so. Regeneration's awfully miraculous. The meeting by God with His people by His Spirit in the ministry of the

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Word and worship is awfully miraculous. There's all sorts of miraculous stuff going on.

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It's just it's not the showy stuff that the world wants to see or that for some reason lots of other people want to see who have lots of money to give away, evidently.

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Well, the tragic thing is most of the time they don't have that money to give away. That's the real issue. But anyways, so, to say it's exegetically certain that the promise is to you and to your children and to as many as are far off, as many as the

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Lord our God shall call to Himself. That's the promise of salvation. And that's election.

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That's election right there. As many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.

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The promise is repent and believe and you will be forgiven. And yes, you will receive the

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Holy Spirit. But there's nothing there that says and you will get to speak in tongues like we did today.

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That's not what He says. That's not what He says. Look at what Paul writes to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 1.

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He says, He's blessed that they are not lacking in any gift as you wait for the revealing of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. That was the anticipation. The gifts continue until Jesus returns. Why? Because they are testifying to His resurrection.

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How is tongues a testifying to the resurrection to a non -Jew? There's no question the ministry of the

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Spirit continues. The return of Christ must be an imminent reality for each generation.

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Not just something that's way down the road someplace but recognition that look, the return of Christ to this world or the return of Christ that I experience in my death because I go into His presence is always an imminent thing.

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And so, the Spirit of God is going to remain with the Church of God throughout the entire history of that church. No question about that.

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But none of this has anything at all to do with the miraculous sign gifts and the idea that the

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Spirit of God cannot have a purpose in the giving of the gifts for a particular period of time. Michael, I think that's where you hit the nail on the head with both of those points.

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The first one for me personally is power. A cessationist theology for me had no power or I would erroneously redefine power.

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Now, can I point out that our charismatic friends are just as guilty of broad brushing as maybe some of our cessationist friends are?

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You have no power! I say to you, the Spirit of God that brings sopranosmos, discipline, self -control into the life of an individual that causes them to live and minister the

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Word of God for decades on end, quietly, in a godly way, without compromise, is far more the work of the

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Spirit of God than all of the charismatic nonsense I've seen on television. Okay?

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So don't talk to me about a lack of power. Because it takes a lot of power to cause someone to live a consistent life over decades of time.

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That's resurrection power right there. Oh, but that's not flashy! That's right, it's not.

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But that's pretty much, I think, exactly what Paul was saying to Timothy. Kindle that gift that was upon you by laying out of hands.

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What does it result in? Oh, power and love and self -control. And that power is not speaking in tongues.

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To be specifically in reference to the way that I happen to be preaching the Word, or the... In fact, hang on.

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Hold that thought. He comes back to him very, very briefly. I do want to get the whole call in. Here's the comeback later on.

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Back to you. You were saying that the two major things as you're looking at Scripture, one, the power of the

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Spirit, undeniable, in terms of Scripture, and the second was... The second one was that the

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Scriptures are clear in multiple areas in the New Testament, giving us a present imperative mandate to pursue the gifts, to raise the dead, to heal the sick, to do all of these things that Jesus and the apostles tell us to do.

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Nowhere in the text of the New Testament is there a command prohibiting or forbidding or negating any of those things.

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So, what's the assumption here? The assumption is once the gift is given, it will be maintained.

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There cannot be, in this mindset, a purpose for a gift or set of gifts at any particular point of time that is only for a particular point in time.

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There cannot be anything special about the apostolic age. There cannot be anything special about the founding of the church.

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It just has to be consistent all the way through. Once a gift is given, always the same. Once you recognize that that is an invalid argument, all these arguments collapse.

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They just collapse. No one is saying the Spirit's absent. No one is saying the Spirit cannot do supernatural things.

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We are disputing a little bit as to what is, more importantly, supernatural. Because I don't believe that speaking in unknown tongues is a relevant gift unless it's on the mission field and you're communicating with tribes that have no translators.

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I'll leave that one open. I'd love to see that happen. But that's not what we have in the charismatic movement.

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When somebody has a prayer language and they're being told, just let your tongue go, let your tongue go,

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I'm sorry, that has nothing to do with the New Testament. It's not there.

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And to identify that with the power of God is to completely miss it. Completely miss it. And it is an exegetical ballet dance, really an extrapolation, in order to come to the conclusion that says otherwise.

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You go to 1 Corinthians 13 and pull out the stuff about the perfect and all that, but in the end, there's nothing that negates that.

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And that's what's fascinating to me, is that there is the strong argument that that's not for today, but it's based purely on one's interpretation of history, which even church history doesn't even bear those things.

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Oh, of course, the gifts never stop. Look, Augustine, in the 4th, 5th century, he originally said the gifts are not for today, but in the 2 -year period they documented over 70 healings.

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And he said, I can't deny it. I would love to see the documentation on that.

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I would love to. No reference was given. The break was coming up. It is not an interpretation of history.

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As I said, you can make church history say a lot of things. You know, we can point to the Montanists and things like that.

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I don't think that's determinative in any way, shape, or form. What we come back to is,

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I believe, that the scriptures tell us that tongues are for a sign.

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They are a semion. And when you go back and look at what the text says in Isaiah 28, it's in regards to the rejection of the

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Messiah by the Jewish people. You've got to deal with that. And once you expose the presupposition, and that is, once the gift is given, it's always there.

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As if the Spirit of God cannot give the gifts as He wills, and that God cannot have a will that the church go through different ages and different periods, so that there's something different about the time period of the apostles, the whole thing falls apart.

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I did not hear any even recognition of that form of argumentation. Now, does that mean it might have come on later in the program or something like that?

57:31

I only got to listen to a certain part of it. I don't know, but I found that a fascinating discussion. Hopefully, you've at least found it somewhat interesting to hear a discussion that actually finally gets to what

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Michael keeps saying, and that is, we need to look at what the Bible says. And I am certain that there were discussions like that at Strangefire.

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I just didn't happen to hear them. I'm sure they were there, and that it was probably handled better than I could handle it, because this isn't my area.

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This isn't something that I spend night and day, and I don't go and do debates on and stuff like that. We may be hosting,

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I don't even think Rich is aware of this, we may be hosting on this program in two weeks a debate.

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There is right now a well -known Reformed Baptist scholar and Michael Brown might be on this program debating this very issue with yours truly doing the moderation.

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That would be great. That would be wonderful. That would be fine. I hope that happens. As I said, there are people far, far, far better prepared to do this than I did.

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But since I heard that call, I thought, well, you know, let's take the time to take a look at it. So thanks for listening to the program.

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Don't forget, I'm heading up to Vancouver, heading up there tomorrow morning. Look forward to seeing all our

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Canadian friends over the weekend, and then should have a regular schedule for a while after that.

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And I'm really looking forward to having a regular schedule for a while. I've loved the traveling, but I'm just hoping to survive

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October without finally picking up one of those nasty bugs in those airplanes. Anyways, we'll see you in Canada this weekend.