Church History Matters

Most people don't understand the importance of church history, and that's a problem. Well, today, we're gonna talk about that on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now. Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

My name is Keith Mosky, and I am a Calvinist, and I am joined today by my new friend and guest and first-time person on the show, Troy Frazier. Hi, Troy, how are you? Hey, I am doing very well. Thank you for having me on.

I appreciate it. Yes, sir, and we're excited to have you with us today. Give you a little background on Troy. Troy is a Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary graduate. He is also the co-founder of Revived Studios, a church history podcast studio that focuses on telling the stories of God's church through the ages.

These encouraging stories of the past have been edifying and lifting up many and helping them to see the great cloud of witnesses their faith is a part of. He currently serves as a missionary in Cambodia and is married with two young kids.

Again, Troy, I'm so grateful to have you on the program, and I'm excited to talk about your work as a missionary, also your work on the podcast. And first of all, I just want to say thank you for reaching out to me, because it was nice to hear that the show is reaching people, and you heard about it and wanted to come on the show, so thank you for that.

Absolutely, no, I saw you having conversations. You've been putting up episodes for quite a while, and I was like, hey, I should reach out to him. I love sharing about church history, and as I mentioned before the show got going, you have a wonderful voice.

I was hoping maybe you could read a sermon for one of my shows, Revive Thoughts, which you agreed to do, so it's gonna be, I'm excited for when that comes out, so I thought it would be a great opportunity for us to collaborate and work together.

And so, yeah, thank you very much for having me on.

Revive Thoughts and the Value of Church History

Yeah, absolutely, and I am excited. For those who don't know, as I said, Revive Thoughts, it's a podcast, and they do conversations like this, like you have a co-host that does the show with you, but you also have pastors who record shows, or I'm sorry, record sermons that are from the past.

The one that you gave me is from St. Augustine, and then there are others. I know some people say St. Augustine.

I heard you guys say St. Augustine. I say St. Augustine. But you're from Jacksonville, so. Which is why I say St. Augustine. Who was St. Augustine the city named after, but St. Augustine the person.

That's right, in fact, I used to have an elder who really gave me a hard time, because I would say Augustine, and he would say, it's Augustine. The liberals call him Augustine. And he would say, you're saying it like the liberals.

So I said, well, I don't mean to. I just, I guess I have a little bit of a sprole. His sprole always called him Augustine.

Yeah, the famous phrase is that Augustine is the person, that Augustine's the place, but I always think, but the place was named after the person. It wasn't like they were like, hey, you know what looks good?

This word that looks just like Augustine. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, recently I listened to your podcast and I heard the John Calvin Passion Sermon. That was really powerful. And so I do encourage my listeners, if you have the opportunity, go over to Revive Studios.

The name of the podcast is, remind me.

Revive Thoughts is one of our podcasts. So Revive Thoughts is the one that you were reading a sermon for. And that podcast, we take sermons from the past and we record them again. We edit the language.

We get the language out of, you know, the 1400s, 1500s KJV vernacular. So it's very easy to listen to, but the content stays the same. You know, we don't change any of that. We don't, you know, turn somebody, have them say things they wouldn't say, but we just take out the thousand thighs and make it very easy to listen to.

And we get those recorded by different speakers and volunteers from all over the world. And then we give you a little bit of backstory too on who the person was and help you to understand, you know, who was this person that was speaking?

Because we found that a lot of people, you know, have heard of names like St. Augustine, maybe Jonathan Edwards. If you're a Christian for a while, or you've done any study or read any books, or, you know, you may know some of the names, but we found that most people don't really know the backstories and who the people are that have these famous names attached to them.

You know, what was John Calvin, you know, doing in Geneva exactly? What was Jonathan Edwards' ministry like, and why did he get thrown out of the church? You know, what was the Taiping rebellion when Hudson Taylor sailed into China?

You know, how long was Dietrich Bonhoeffer in jail? You know, and some of you may say, oh, I know some of these, but I promise you there's a lot of details we don't know, and that most people have not learned the biographies of these people.

Even people that they may respect.

Yeah, while you were saying that, I'm like, I want to know the answer to that question, because the one you were talking about with the Taiping, my wife loves Hudson Taylor. She did, she was actually a English as a second language tutor, and she tutored Chinese students, and she did that for three years, and she became, she fell in love with the Chinese people while, because she had children, Chinese children that she would be on with, much like we are now, and she just fell in love with them, and Hudson Taylor is a hero of ours and our family, and so I'd love to hear that story sometime, for sure.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my son's middle name is Hudson,.

And we lived in Hudson Taylor, or Hudson, we lived in Hudson, we lived in China for two years, and we were in Hangzhou for one of those years, which was like the headquarters he had for a little while, so we just, we love him, too, but Taiping Rebellion was one of the, was the bloodiest event in human history before World War I.

It happened in the 1800s. This group of people decided, this one guy genuinely decided he was Jesus's brother, and then he was talking to this other guy, and this other guy's like, I'm the Holy Spirit, and this other guy's like, I'm Paul, and the three of them set up a cult army, rebelled against the empire, rebelled against the emperor, and it was a civil war that lasted during the same time as the American Civil War, but longer, from 1850 to 1865, and about five million people died, 30 million people were displaced.

It was horrible for the people, and Hudson Taylor sailed into China, into Shanghai, right while the port was on fire. His early autobiography journals, you can see all these descriptions of bullets flying, cannonballs hitting people nearby him.

I mean, just crazy stuff that he was involved with, and I just always try to imagine, you know, you're helping somebody who's bleeding, and you're telling him about Jesus, and he's like, Jesus, his brother is ruining this country.

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, what would have been going on to try to tell people about the Lord in that environment? I imagine it was really, really crazy, and so there's stuff like that. When you hear that, and then you look at what he did with China and La Mission, I think it makes it all the more just amazing how God moved through that one person, considering the circumstances he went in.

I mean, most, I mean, 99 of mission organizations today would not send you to a country in a war zone. They would just straight up say, wait till the war is over. Hudson Taylor was there for off and on a lot of it, and he was right on the battlefield, and yet that was also, I mean, we're all very grateful that he was there today.

Wow, that's, see, I didn't know about that. That is amazing, and that's the blessing, and we're gonna talk about this later in the program, but the blessing of church history is that knowledge and that understanding and knowing what our forefathers have gone through, the ancestors and the faith, and that's powerful.

Thank you for sharing that. Now, since we're on the subject of history, before we get into church history, I wanna talk a little bit about your personal history, because something you've just said, as I said in the opening, you're a missionary in Cambodia right now, but you said you did some time in China.

How long have you been, well, let me even go further back. How did the Lord save you? How did you know he was calling you to foreign missions, and how long have you been doing that?

Salvation, Calling, and Foreign Missions

Okay, so the Lord, I got saved in youth group. I'm not sure if it was, and this may sound ridiculous, but I'm not sure if it was when I was really left behind books or when I was in summer camp. It happened in that kind of same summer, but I was just very much scared of, oh my gosh, I'm gonna go to hell, I don't know who Jesus is, and just kind of turning to him with my heart and soul and believing like, hey, that's not where I wanna go, you know what I mean?

Like, I don't wanna not be connected to God, and a lot of prayer and a lot of heart. It took a while from the mental faith of intelligently saying, this is what I believe, the gospel, getting to my heart, and like, no, I wanna live that out and have a passionate walk with God.

I would say I was 18 or 19 when that started to really happen, and then I went to Bible college when I was 20, and I just fully surrendered myself there, wanted to be involved in ministry, felt called to just spend my life following him because he'd done so much for me, how could I not spend my life following him and trusting in his ways?

And that's kind of what we've been doing, but if you'd asked me in Bible college or even at any time early in my relationship with God or early in my marriage, if I would've been in foreign missions, I would've probably said no.

Just like if you'd asked me if I would run a podcast where we talk about church history and theology, I'd have probably been like, no, I don't need that stuff, right? Whatever, like that stuff's boring.

Who would wanna listen to that all day? No way, I'm not in. And the same way, I was like, I don't wanna do foreign missions. I'm very much interested in helping America. I loved politics. Politics actually helped bring me to God as well as reading.

I read a lot of conservative Republican books and stuff like that. I probably have read more of those than anybody, especially when I was in high school, and they always mentioned God, so it kind of piqued my interest in that.

But they went after evolution a lot, and I didn't like evolution as a kid in science class. I thought it didn't seem to make sense. So these factors helped pull me towards God. So I was like, I'm definitely gonna get involved in politics when I get older, or I'll serve in a church somewhere, it'll be fine.

But God had us go through different things, and as I just followed his path, eventually we ended up in China as teachers. And then from there, we came back to the States when I went and get my seminary degree.

And then we just felt like, especially during last year during COVID, we just felt like God was saying, go back over, go back over. And when we asked him where, we were like, well, we don't wanna go somewhere bad or uncomfortable, but the Lord was like, Cambodia, which is both of those things in a lot of ways.

I love the Cambodian people, but it's a tough country. And we live in a very, we spent the last year in a very tough city. But the Lord is good. We've been trying to be faithful to him. And yeah, just kind of trusting him for where he'll send us and what we'll do.

And I, man, we just love teaching the gospel. I've been able to be a Bible teacher this last year, and I love, love teaching the Bible. Love just walking through it with students and seeing them learn more about it.

Having students tell me like, wow, I learned so much about the Bible this year. I've been in a Christian school for 11 years, but it's completely different this year. I'm like, that's awesome. That's what I love to do, so.

Amen, amen. Now you and your wife are obviously there with your children. Is she also engaged in missions work as well, or is she primarily with the children?

No, she currently is. We're actually planning to move soon, and she'll be able to be more focused on the children. But currently she was also a middle school social studies teacher in the current situation we are in.

And she also is podcaster as well. She runs one of our shows, Martyrs and Missionaries, which is wildly more popular than my show, Revive Thoughts. So people love that show. The name itself just grabs them, and she does a really, really, really good job.

And so, yeah, she's involved with the podcasting side of the ministry, and she's also involved with the work we're doing right now as well, so.

Foxe's Book of Martyrs and How to Read Church History Critically

I have a question. Now, this may be somewhat, I hope not too controversial. You just mentioned Martyrs and Missions. Yes. And I know one of the most famous books of church history that is on the popular level is Fox's Book of Martyrs.

But I also know that that book is criticized from Roman Catholics as containing some misinformation. And you being a church history expert, I would like to ask, do you think that that's a fair characterization, or do you think that Fox's Book of Martyrs is a good resource?

Because, I mean, I don't know enough to say whether it is or not, so.

I, you know, I know I'm not a scholar, so somebody might be able to just poke me apart from my research into that, because I have heard people say, well, you know, we think he was exaggerating. So when this actually kind of goes back to studying church history in general, I sometimes think this is why people maybe get turned off by history.

But so Fox's Book of Martyrs puts out this book saying, here's what happened, and here's from my perspective, here's the stories I've been collecting. And I feel like it's probably pretty good. Maybe it's not perfect, but it's probably pretty good.

That's been my kind of educated research. Most of the people at the time didn't have a problem with it. The Catholics had a problem with it, but of course they did. I mean, they're the bad guys in the story.

So, I mean, that makes sense. And you could say, well, you know, Protestants persecuted Catholics back. Okay. But we know that the Catholics persecuted a lot of Protestants, so it's not unheard of. It would be, that makes perfect sense that what Fox was saying was true.

And then what happens is, you know, 200 years later, 300 years later, we're looking at this, we're trying to figure out, neither of us are there. I think, but the people around Fox seemed to believe it was probably pretty, you know, decent, pretty good version of it.

And the problem is, there's always this third group now that always goes in and goes, well, you know, Fox is probably exaggerating, but the Catholics can't be fully right too. Let's just pick down the middle and say, some of it's good, some of it's bad.

But I feel like that just basically says Fox was kind of lying, right? Well, we don't have any real evidence that he was. And we're just saying that because we don't wanna fully believe, we don't wanna take a side historically.

Another example is Charles Spurgeon's downgrade controversy where I read several people who said, well, you know, Charles Spurgeon basically said at the time about history, if we don't stick to it, if church history shows that the church will start to decline if it does not continue to kind of like reinvest itself into, you know, conservative Orthodox values and stick with the truth, it will slowly just descend into liberal drift and just kind of wander off basically, which I mean, goodness gracious, we've lived through that.

We see that all the time, I'm sure. And Spurgeon was very firm, like church history shows us this is coming, we have to stand firm against this. And then other people said, you're out of line. He got voted out of his denomination pretty much.

He left, but he was voted down and censured 2000 votes to seven. And I mean, these were his friends, people he had preached with, people he had done conferences for. He had been to many of their churches.

He had had them speak at his church. I mean, he was very close with the people. And so to be voted down so, I mean, just hammered so hard by it, it was very hard on him. His wife even said that this controversy, she believed was part of the reason he died younger, the stress and the anxiety and the weight of it just crushed him in his final days.

She said, now he turned out to be absolutely dead on. I mean, he's correct. He had it all completely right, obviously. And history has vindicated Spurgeon's position. But there's another group out there that goes, well, Spurgeon was right to be concerned about liberal drift, but he went too far.

And his critics were, you know, so let's find that middle ground. And there's always this group of historians that just thinks, I can't know for certain. I don't wanna take sides. So if I just say both sides are somewhat wrong and somewhat right, I'm doing history well.

I don't think that's accurate because you're always saying that everyone's half lying, but people do tell the truth, right? And that doesn't mean no one lies, but that doesn't also mean that everything we say is untrue.

What if Fox was telling the best version of the story he knew? Let's give him the credit he, I think, deserves. So my approach is, generally speaking, not to be overly critical using sources 300 years removed, if that makes sense.

If no one at the time is attacking it, I'm not going to be the person to start jumping it. Sure, absolutely.

Why Church History Gets Relativized

And one of the things that I hear, and I know I'm jumping ahead in the conversation, one of the things I hear a lot of times people will say in criticizing historical works is they will say, well, history is written by the victor.

And so you can't, and what that tends to mean, at least from my, and maybe you can correct me, what it tends to mean from when I hear people say that is, I can't believe anything history says because it's the victor who's telling the story and therefore I can't have any confidence.

And you end up being able to say, we really don't know what happened. That's almost what you have to say is we don't know what happened because all we have are the victor's opinions.

Yeah, no, history has become very much morally relativized. In fact, I argue that if you're running a seminary and you're listening, or you're running a Bible college or whatever, I don't know why you would be listening to me right now, but if you were listening to me and you clicked on this one, I highly encourage you get ahold of your history department because I believe most of the time we think, okay, we're going to be attacked head on in theology by progressivism and this theological drift and all this stuff.

And I would say it's your history department is where it sneaks in first, actually. They don't cut, you're going to have progressives, sure, that come straight after the Trinity, but they don't normally start with the Trinity is false.

Here, we're coming straight into your, no, they're going to come in through the back door, through the history department and say, oh yeah, no, but really Jonathan Edwards has some problems. And Voltaire's actually worth studying.

And actually we need to rethink our look on blah, blah, blah. And we got to remember Charles Spurgeon was bourgeoisie and they're going to do these things where they just slowly chip away at our heroes and they slowly lift up the villains.

And before you know it, nobody's trustworthy in history. They've completely relativized it all and turned all of church history into the, well, we don't want to be, we don't want to make, they'll say, we don't want to make hagiographies or we don't want to make too big a saint out of this guy.

And so let's just drag them through the mud. And that's also false. And I always say, look, we're going to be in heaven with all these people. Do you want it to go around heaven apologizing to them for ripping on them for your entire life?

Okay, like that doesn't mean we can't point out their flaws. I do think we have to point out flaws, but if you're just living in the flaws and you're not talking about the great things God has done through his church, you're studying church history wrong.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So again, every time you talk, I have come up with a thousand questions and I don't want to, I find you as a fascinating young man. I appreciate the work that you're doing.

I appreciate you as a missionary. My wife and I, as I said earlier, we love folks who do foreign missions. If there were people who wanted to learn more about your missions work, is there a website or something that they can go to to find out if they wanted to?

Yeah, you can come to our Facebook group following the Fraziers. That's kind of where we do all that. We try to have a little bit private because we have to be a little bit careful, but we let lots of people in.

So if you look like a real Facebook profile, we'll let you in. If you were created yesterday and you're in like 45 different groups, which sometimes they'll come in, I'll be like, I think you're a bot.

But we try to let people in, even if we don't know them who are listening to our shows so they can follow us. But we do have to be a little bit careful because we do go to country, I mean, actually every country we've been outside of America is not open to the gospel directly in a sense.

So we have to be a little bit, just a little bit more cautious. So that's kind of where our little private group where we can share updates and tell you what's going on and be a little bit more forthright about the gospel and the ministry that we're doing there.

So yeah, following the Fraziers, a little Facebook group, just join us. And like I said, we have lots of listeners that come in. So we're used to people who aren't, maybe necessarily people we know being in there.

Absolutely, and that's F-R-A-Z-I-E-R-S?

F-R-A-S-I-E-R, actually. Like the old TV show, well, old to me, and maybe some of the old people, it's Frazier that was on when I was a kid. So yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Love Frazier. Okay, so that way people will know how to reach out to you and how to get, follow you if they are so interested. And I know as soon as I tell my wife, she will definitely want to, especially knowing that your wife has a podcast.

My wife, every once in a while will do this show with me. In fact, the number one show I've ever done, it's had more downloads, more hits. It gets hits every day. My wife and I did a show on Martin Luther's wife, Katerina Barbora.

And it was the, like I said, it's my claim to fame. It's my one show that sort of almost viral, you know, like everybody's There you go. And I always give her the credit for it because she was the one who researched it, did all the information for it and shared it.

So it's wonderful when you can do ministry with your best friend and the person that you love. Absolutely.

Hey, we have a similar, we have an episode called Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Overcoming Fear, and it is a sermon that has gone really well. There's even a sermon jam up of it on the Wrath and Grace app. So people really like it.

So I got that one episode too, where I'm like, hey, if you have heard of us, it might be that one episode there too. My wife, she does martyrs and missionaries. She tells these incredible stories, Gladys Aylward.

She's currently working through Henry M. Stanley. You may not have heard of him, but he's the guy who discovered David Livingston in Africa. He got saved from David Livingston. Spoiler alert, my wife hasn't gotten to that part in the episode series she's doing, but it is a really, really, really good, a good, if you want to jump in though, highly encourage you go, if you listen to all of this and you don't want to listen to revive thoughts and listen to old sermons, but you're missing out, I'm telling you.

But if you want to go check out Gladys Aylward's episodes on martyrs and missionaries, if you don't already know them, go listen to Amy Carmichael or Darlene Rose. Some of those, those people will deeply convict you and you will walk away going, I know my life's not so bad, actually.

You know, I've got food on the table. I've got kids to talk to. Nothing puts your life in perspective like hearing about these incredible, incredible people that have suffered for the gospel around the world.

And my wife, she's just a great voice for it. She loves doing it. And people are always, I feel like a lot more, I don't know, my wife is very happy to run a woman, and have a woman-led podcast that's not about theology or women's talk or something like that.

Like she loves doing shows about martyrs and missionaries. Sometimes people are like, oh, we need more women in this space, but it tends to be like women talk shows and stuff like that. And my wife is like, no, I just want to do martyrs and missionaries.

And the fact that I'm a woman is not really necessarily the highlight, if that makes sense. Yep.

Forgotten Sermons and the Accessibility of Historical Theology

Well, getting back to your podcast, getting with the sermons is, I know that there are a ton of pastors who are unknown. You know, Paul Washer even talks about the rose that blooms on the mountain that no one ever sees but God.

And he talks about, you know, there's pastors that no one's ever heard of, but that God used mightily in their, wherever they were. And that's encouraging to, especially to small church pastors like me, you know, when you hear stories like that, it's wonderful to know that they did touch some lives, that there's guys out there that God used.

So if you were to say, here, I know you said you had your most popular one, but that doesn't always mean it's your favorite. Because I know for me, I know what's most popular isn't always my favorite.

Is there a sermon by somebody that none of us have probably heard of, but that you guys have done that you would say, y 'all need to hear this?

Whew, yeah, no, go subscribe to Revive Thoughts and download all of them. I feel like that every single week. One off the top of my head, Christmas Evans, whom you may have heard of, his name itself kind of stands out.

He was a kind of a Baptist Welsh gentleman from the early 1800s. He has a sermon called the Triumph of Calvary. It is so good. He's very illustrative. And so like he paints a picture using Isaiah of a battlefield and it's really cool.

And it puts the cross in a perspective that's really cool. You mentioned the top, John Calvin's Passion of the Christ. That sermon is actually a part of an eight part sermon that we've been dicing. We've been doing one sermon a year around Easter time, except for this one that came out a little bit later, every year for three years.

So it's a part of a sermon series on the Passion. Highly, highly recommend it. Some people may listen, I mean on conversations with a Calvinist this won't happen, but some people may listen and go, I don't really like John Calvin.

Well, I'm telling you, listen to the sermons on the Passion of the Cross. They're really, really, really incredible and really, really good. Highly recommend Basil's To the Rich. If you're not familiar with Basil, he's kind of an old church father and he has a sermon called To the Rich and it will completely eviscerate your ideas of wealth and money.

And we've had more people write in and say like, ouch, that sermon stung more than any other sermon in pretty much all of our three years of running. He's not as famous, but people felt very much convicted by it because he just basically lays it out how you use your money and why you're not giving it to God in reality.

And I think it just hit people really hard because of the truthfulness of it and especially how much it applies to people like us who are from America who tend to have more money than we actually really need and we don't tend to ever really give away as much as we probably should.

Coming from an old church father who gave away everything, it's very, very convicting. And you can see, I could just keep going. There's What Will Happen to You by Henry, I believe Lytton, The First Five Minutes After Death, which is just a really cool sermon.

There's, oh gosh, Soren Kierkegaard actually, who is not known for preaching, but he did sometimes. And he has a sermon on the unchangeableness of God or the immutability of God. Oh my goodness, it is so incredibly good.

His perspective on how to share the idea of God never changes, it was very powerful for me. It really made me look at immutability differently after that, just he described God as the ability of God to be so patient while you sin.

Humans could never do it. Only someone as perfect as God could let you sin and sin and sin and not basically get you what you deserve the second you do it, but just wait for you to finish before he's done with you.

It was such a good sermon and really, it really powerfully changed my outlook on immutability and how important it is. It just, gosh, you can see there's so many. There's Hudson Taylor's Compassion on the Multitude, which is a really good sermon, just him sharing.

And some of these are famous people, Hudson Taylor's obviously pretty famous. But I'm just saying, there's so many of these sermons where I just go, man, oh, Robert Murray McShane's sermon, Another Lily Gathered, he preached it, it's a funeral sermon for, I believe, a 14-year-old boy who died, very, very sad.

But he talked about how this boy is in heaven now and it's just very powerful. Oh, David Livingston himself, actually, no one knows this, he gave a couple speeches. He only gave two in his entire lifetime.

It was at a back-to-back conference, I believe at Cambridge, and we have them. We went to the Livingston Foundation, asked for them, edited them, recorded them. We're the only place you can find them on the entire internet, pretty much, and you can listen to them there.

So literally, they're pulled out of the archives. And we have a few sermons like that. George Matheson's Patience of Job was once preached before Queen Victoria, and it's been completely lost to history.

But after searching and searching, we got a library to scan it to us, and it's a really, really good one as well. Gave me a much better appreciation for the Book of Job than I had before I listened to it.

And again, it's crazy, because it was once world-famous, read around the world in newspapers, preached before Queen Victoria, and then just completely lost. No one knew about it until we brought it back out and put it back into recording.

So we have a lot of sermons like that, where you'll hear people like Jonathan Edwards, people you'd expect, Jonathan Edwards, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, big names that you would expect to be on a show like this.

But we have lots of sermons that you've probably never heard of. No one's, everyone's completely forgotten, and then for the first time in history, they're back, sermons by people like John Wycliffe, or people like Thomas Aquinas, people that have really, truly been either forgotten, or the fact that they were preachers has really been forgotten.

And we're bringing even a sermon by Boniface.

Church History, Denominational Identity, and Learning from the Past

Yeah, and that's what's amazing, is you can't, I mean, any of us could pull up a sermon by John Piper, or John MacArthur, or R .C. Sproul, and they have 1 ,500, 2 ,000 sermons at least that are available in their own voice.

But the only thing up until now, and up until guys like you and your podcasts are doing, the only way we could do this is look at it. We couldn't hear it. We couldn't have, it didn't have a voice. So I really appreciate what you guys are doing.

Like I said, listening to the sermon that was preached, the Calvin sermon, I don't know who the gentleman was. He did a fantastic job. And it was like, this is, I know that I'm not listening to Calvin.

I mean, I know it's not, obviously it's not being preached in his native tongue, but it's still like listening to a person. And so I do think that's, like me, I tend to be an auditory learner anyway. I tend to learn a lot by listening.

And so I find great value in it. So I think others will as well.

Thank you. We also, and this is kind of side, but we have, you may listen to, you may hear a show like Revive Thoughts, especially, and you may think, okay, that's going to be, like we had people when we told people about the show when we first started, and they were like, that's going to be really popular in the Ivy lounges of professors.

But we actually find that's not true. Most of our listeners tend to be moms, tend to be kids, high schoolers, young people, because we take these ideas, sermons and stuff like that, that would be really unaccessible to most people.

And we make them accessible by taking them out of the archaic language and breathing that kind of life into them. And we also have a lot of listeners who are not English as first language people. We have a ton of listeners from the Philippines.

We have a ton of listeners from other countries like that, because for them, the Puritans are these great guys they hear a lot about, but they're not able, or not just the Puritans, the church fathers, et cetera, but they're not able to access them because the language is too archaic and they don't, they may know English, but learning English and then learning a 1500s English is so hard for them, but they can listen to a sermon.

And so we have found there are a lot of people who really appreciated the fact that we made them accessible to them again and made it easy for them. They can sit and sometimes we get messages like, hey, I may have to listen to the sermon more than once, but without your show, I could not hear from these people at all.