April 22, 2020 Show with Roger Salter on “Salvation Through Christ: Why is it Necessary & How is it Effectual?”

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 22nd day of April 2020.

And I'm so delighted to have back on the show a returning guest who I love to interview and I love to share fellowship with this dear brother and his wife

Maureen. I am speaking of Reverend Roger Salter, who is Rector of St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. And today he is going to be addressing a topic which

I cannot even think of a topic that is more vital to every human being, salvation through Christ, why is it necessary, and how is it effectual?

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Reverend Roger Salter. It's an immense joy to be speaking with you again,

Chris. And I'm going to immediately give our listeners our email address if they would like to send in a question to us on this topic.

And you can also ask a question on broader theological issues and even on Anglicanism specifically if you'd like.

The email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Roger, before we go into this very crucial topic today, why don't you please remind our listeners about St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, or introduce this church to them for the first time if they've never heard you on the program before.

Yes, thank you, Chris. Did you want me to comment? Yes, I wanted you to describe St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham.

Well, we're a very small body of Reformed Anglicans, and I guess the best description

I could use is that we are Cranmerion in our theology and also our liturgy.

We represent, as best we can, with the grace of God assisting us, the classic

Anglican position. And we have dedicated ourselves to this cause for some years, and we're still here by the grace of God, and it is our great delight to exalt

Christ as much as we can. And, of course, some clarification probably needs to be made when you say you represent the classic

Anglican tradition. I'm sure that those who differ from you in theology would claim that title as well.

We do have, on opposite ends of the spectrum from you, on the one hand you have liberals and apostates, and then on the other end of the spectrum you have very

Romish Anglo -Catholics that would be a part of what is known as the

Oxford Movement and the Tractarian Movement. But you would be clearly a confessionally

Protestant and theologically Reformed congregation, and also very conservative.

And I think that's the best way of putting it, Chris, because when we say that we adhere to classic

Anglicanism, it's not a proudful claim. It is the fact that we adhere to the constitutional documents that we've inherited from the

Reformation and we adhere very strongly to a very precious inheritance that God has given us through our

Reformers and the great awakeners of the 18th century. And so if anybody really wanted to define us, they would need to hold the 1662

Book of Common Prayer in their hands and look at the liturgy and the services of ordination we call the ordinal, and also theologically, by which we interpret the other two sources, the 39

Articles of Religion. Some people make the claim that Anglicanism is defined by the liturgy.

It has a very scriptural liturgy. Somebody has said it's about 90 % scripture rearranged for worship, for public worship.

But the Articles define how we interpret the liturgical statements. Yes, and that has a lot to do with what you meant by your

Cramnerian in your theology. Thomas Cramner is the one that drafted the 39

Articles, did he not? Yes, he did. And then it was revised later by a team led by Bishop John Jewel and it was reduced from something like 42

Articles to 39. But it's a very Reformed statement of the

Christian faith with Lutheran and Continental Reformed influences.

And Thomas Cramner, if anybody does not know who he is, I strongly urge you to go to the

Iron Sharpens Iron website after this show is over and go to the archive where it says

Past Shows Podcast and click on that.

And then you could type in the search engine Thomas Cramner and you will get all the interviews that I've done on the subject of this hero of the

Christian faith including at least one, perhaps more, with Ashley Null.

I've interviewed Dr. Ashley Null a number of times but I think perhaps only one is specifically on Thomas Cramner.

And he is considered one of the greatest living scholars on Thomas Cramner.

Would I be correct in saying that? Absolutely, Chris. He's a wonderful advocate of Cramner's position liturgically, theologically, and of course the

Church as it was Reformed under him and our body of Reformers in the 16th century.

And when I use the term Cramnerism, I hesitate because we're not following anyone human in that sense or thinking of them as being infallible.

It's really the documents that he produced from his knowledge of Scripture, from his experience of God, from his influence by some of the great

Reformers from the continent. And he was, of course, in correspondence with Calvin and it's just to say that for us, and the

Church is always Reforming and there's always more to learn, but this is the foundation of what

I believe is to be historically accurate Anglicanism. And I realize so many people do claim that they are classic

Anglicans, but again I would say that it is to be defined by those original documents of the 16th century produced.

And then, of course, a lot of people claim Hooker, but if you read closely, Hooker and Cranmer were not at odds in any major department of doctrinal practice.

Philip Hughes has written a book about them together, their approval positions.

Yes, I remember on one of my previous interviews, and I can't remember who I was interviewing. It was an

Anglican, though. It might have been you. And a listener was protesting that the true

Anglican Church is much more Anglo -Catholic than we were describing. Yes. And he was bringing up, in his defense,

Hooker. Well, you see, there's a misunderstanding, I think, and I think evangelicals, we're not being contentious or in rivalry with other people who claim to be

Anglican. We take the situation as it is and minister within it. We know that there are many

Anglo -Catholics and people of that kind who do know Christ. I'd say where we essentially differ is how we grasp

Christ, how Christ is grasped. You know, is it through sacramental and human action, or is it exclusively a work of the

Holy Spirit through Scripture? And, you know, salvation is instantaneous.

The moment our faith is granted to us by the Spirit. But, you know,

I think Anglicans have been slow to take up our rich inheritance from the end of the 16th century into the 17th, when you have great men like John Donne.

There is, of course, Richard Hooker, who is a reformed thinker, and there are many others that we've sort of lost grip of in emphasizing certain other reformers, but there are a great many

Anglicans that are recognized by all Anglicans that fundamentally held to the reformed position.

And, by the way, folks, if you're looking up Thomas Cramner in the Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio search engine, his last name is spelled

C -R -A -N as in Nancy, M as in Michael, E -R. Sometimes I even mess up when

I'm spelling his name and I put the M before the N. It's easily done.

Easily done. Fascinating figure from church history that is not spoken about often enough, in my opinion.

Perhaps he is very often within Anglican circles, but I'm speaking of others who still love the heritage of the

Protestant Reformation outside of Anglicanism. They should still know about this man who, out of fear for his own life, when the

Church of England swung back to Roman Catholicism, he recanted his reformed beliefs, and then the guilt got too much for him, and he recanted his recantation and returned openly to his reformed beliefs for which he was executed, and he even had his hand thrust into the flames first before being burned alive.

He had his hand thrust into the flames that signed his recantation of the reformed faith.

And he actually ran ahead of his captors, his persecutors, to have himself tied to that pyre so that he would be burned, but he was willing to do that for the sake of Christ and the gospel and the future of the

Church of God in England. And the lovely thing about him,

Chris, and everybody has their faults and flaws, but he was a modest man, a charitable man, and in many ways his very pastoral approach,

I think one of the great features of Anglicanism, and I'm not saying it's lacking in other denominations and traditions, but it is geared very much to pastoral care, to the well -being of the soul, the well -being of the whole person, and the other man

I find strikingly similar in character and more developed in theology is

Archbishop James Usher. But, you know, he was the primate of Ireland in the 17th century during the days of Cromwell before, and he, like Cromwell, was very, very pastoral, very meek.

They were very humble men before God. And another thing

I'd like you to describe about your worship, as you know, the

Anglicans are divided between high church and low church, and the great

Anglican bishop J .C. Ryle I believe was a low churchman, and Stephen Ting, who was a pastor here in the 19th century in New York City, very reformed theologically, he was a low churchman, but are you a bit higher than those men?

No. I wouldn't consider ourselves in any way higher than Ryle or Ting and the other man

I'm desperately trying to think of. You've had the author on your program. Can't remember his name, unfortunately, at this precise moment.

But we do genuinely appreciate liturgy, not because it's absolutely necessary, but because it's right to say that our liturgy is largely derived from Scripture, and therefore we are simply doing what most

Christians do when they read a psalm or they say the Lord's Prayer. They are using biblical liturgy.

We just use biblical liturgy a lot more. And of course it enhances and amplifies what is ministered through the

Word, because both liturgy and the Word combine to give that doubly strengthened witness from the

Word of God. Amen. Amen. And by the way,

I'm planning on mentioning this later, but for those of you who either live near Birmingham, Alabama, or you are going to be visiting there, perhaps visiting with friends, family, loved ones down there, vacationing there, the website for St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, is stmanglican .weebly

.com. That's S -T for St., M for Matthews, anglican .weebly

.com. And hopefully you will remember to mention that later as well.

And in fact, I think I remember the great...

Were you speaking about a bishop here in the United States? I was, McIlvaine.

Yeah, that's it. Yes, I interviewed the author of his biography.

You had Tom Eichmann, I believe. Yes, yes. McIlvaine and also Toplady. Yes, Augustus Toplady.

Two superb books. Yes, and by the way, you can get them from solid -ground -books .com.

I should always plug a ministry that is very responsible for us being on the air.

In fact, you are a very close mutual friend of Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books. Absolutely, before he moved, yes.

Yes, in fact, Mike was the one years ago when I had the show broadcasting out of New York on Long Island, WNYG and WGBB.

That's right. And Mike was the one that urged me to interview you. Yes, absolutely, yes.

So, this topic that we are discussing today is perhaps the most important topic that I could ever have discussed on this program, salvation through Christ, why is it necessary, and how is it effectual.

Well, why don't you start with, first of all, why don't you start with a definition of salvation.

It's obvious when you speak with people who are outside of the

Christian faith, they very often really don't even understand that word. It's thrown around a lot as a buzzword, and very often when well -meaning evangelicals are evangelizing the lost, they will say things to them, like, you need to be saved, you need to be saved, and they never really define what that means.

Perhaps it would be wise to start with salvation, what it actually is. Yes. I have to make a confession here,

Chris, that I have a hang -up about buzzwords, not because they're bad, but they need to be defined.

They need to be spoke out so people, particularly in a generation that is estranged from Scripture, we need to find language that is as close to what we would really like to say if they had any background that would communicate the gospel with accuracy.

And I think there's a lot of unreality about because even as Christians, we sometimes use terms,

I don't mean casually and insincerely, but not realizing that they lose their power if we don't emphasize the essential meaning of those terms.

And so I get a little bit edgy if I don't hear Christians giving evidence of the fact that they've thought about these things that they're commending, and these things are vitally real to us.

And when you asked me for the suggestion of a theme, and that came up to me on Tuesday as I was reading through Scripture and pondering the greatness and the necessity of Christ as our

Savior, I thought, that would have to be the theme if I could enunciate it with clarity.

But now I feel a terrible sense of inadequacy, Chris, because the subject is too high, too deep, too broad to encapsulate in anyone's thought or words.

We go back to Scripture, and we're absolutely stunned by what we read. And, you know, when its reality creates its impact, we cannot believe that the

Prince of Heaven, the Son of God, came to this world, God incarnate, and for the purpose of affecting our atonement with God.

If I'm yakking on too much, please tell me, Chris. Oh, no. As I've said before,

I am one of those probably rare talk show hosts that likes his guests to have the spotlight on them, because I have guests on my program for a reason.

They're supposed to be the expert on an issue we're addressing, and therefore I'm not one of these talk show hosts that has a need to constantly interrupt the guests.

So please be as thorough as you find necessary. Well, two of my favorite sources of devotional and theological thought are

Martin Luther and John Newton, and both of them are so frank about their relationship with God.

It was not perfect. It was not thoroughly consistent, and both of them admitted the highs and lows in our walk with God and the dullness and the lack of receptivity to what we read and ponder, even from Scripture.

It doesn't have that impact, that punch, that it should really have. I feel that's the same when we read and expound

Scripture in congregations and in corporate worship. Really, sometimes

I feel when I'm reading Luther, I want to leap out of the chair, and lately when

I've been reading Hebrews, I just don't know what to do with myself. It makes me so restless to think that I am so dull -witted when it comes to the

Word and Gospel of Christ. And I think mentally if it's right to use these two terms, if it's not contradictory,

I feel that when we ponder the invisible, there ought to be a sense that it's really tangible, tangible to the mind.

We're in another realm. We're in the realm of the invisible, and that which only the regenerate can enter and enjoy and understand and pursue.

And I feel that the vitality, in a sense, of our faith and of our outreach is rather muted.

It's become too tame, and we need to have that, particularly to me.

I love it when Luther got so tired of the congregation not receiving what he was saying, he got up and hid himself in a castle for a couple of weeks until they would miss him and pay attention.

I remember John Newton just saying, especially in his correspondence, that there are times when he reads

Scripture as if he's almost brain -dead, you know, and his heart isn't moved, and how distressing that is when you still have an inkling, a comprehension, of the great and powerful truths we're coming to terms with.

And I've been reading Hebrews lately, and I think, I can't, I can't absorb the power, immensity, massiveness of these truths that's saying the

Son of God became incarnate, God enfleshed himself and came among us, and in that same body he died in our stead to redeem us, to do everything that the atonement accomplished, to set us free from our debt to God, in having created offenses against him and breaches of his law, which

I don't see as being legalistic at all, it's his wisdom as to how we should live, we're doing self -harm when we sin.

I just can't reach up enough to comprehend these great things, and I nod my head, and I think,

Lord have mercy, and it's not as if we as a church give that impression anymore, that we are dealing with things that are, they're sheer electric, they're, how can

I put it, more, more powerful than a nuclear bomb in the heart, they are just astonishing to think that Jesus Christ, our

Lord, is rejected so horribly, and so, with such ridicule and contempt in our world, and we

Christians are so dulled because we're subject to that influence, you know, the edge is taken off our holiness of life and our conviction of witness, and when

I read something, as I have been lately, you know, Hebrews 9, about the

Son of God, summing up and fulfilling all of the sacrificial system of Israel, meant and symbolized,

I can't believe it. I do, but I can't. It's beyond, beyond the human ability to grasp that God should be so gracious, so humble, so, so patient with us, and so generous as to lift us up and exalt us, who have hated

Him and railed against Him from birth, until His love conquered us. Amen.

Well, one of the reasons, as you know, that this subject is so vital, is that we, tragically, have inherited a sin nature from Adam, from Adam's fall, from his fall in the garden, and we are conceived in a state of sin.

There are professing evangelicals who believe that we are born, or even conceived, innocent, and that we are, perhaps, a clean slate, morally neutral, and that we just learn from our parents and from those around us, after we're born, we learn how to become sinners, but we are, by nature, sinners ourselves, are we not?

Absolutely. And I think a companion truth was absolutely essential before we grasped the magnificence of Christ's work on our behalf, is that we need to realize the depth of our sinfulness and darkness and natural opposition to God, indeed, our natural hatred of God.

A lot of people have never come up against this, because they've not had opportunity for their hearts to disclose to them that essential antipathy to the

Lord. But when you discover it in various ways, and it occurs over and over again in your life, you begin to realize that something is fundamentally wrong with our nature, and that what we inherit in our daily lives and consider to be normal, and because it's normal, we think it's innocent, is not.

Our whole life from birth is abnormal, and it's an illusion until the truth of God breaks in.

Yes, and we also, on top of that, having a sin nature, and the scriptures are clear that in the flesh we cannot please

God, and I don't understand our Arminian evangelical friends who believe that, they share with us an understanding that we are born in a sin nature, but they believe that someone who is born with a sin nature is still, quote, quote, good enough that they can summon up from themselves a faith that is pleasing to God, and that faith saves them.

And we know, as Reformed Christians, that the Bible is clear, that we are so depraved in our being, not that we act out our depravity as wickedly as we could because God is restraining us, but we could never, prior to a rebirth, even have any desire of turning to Christ.

We wouldn't even view ourselves as in need of a salvation.

And doesn't it require a heart transplant where our heart of stone is removed and our heart of flesh is replaced within us by God Himself?

Yes, yes. I mean, you just need a few moments alone with your own corrupt self and the thoughts that it produces to know that at the very depth of our being there's a horror story there.

It's a... I can't think of the term I want, but it's something we just can't allay or contain or restrain.

If God lets us go for a second or two, we're like devils. The only thing is that we're humans who are acting in a devilish way.

And, you know, I was thinking about Isaiah when he encountered the holiness of God in the temple, how he shouted out,

I am ruined. And I don't know, you know, maybe we need to read

Scripture with more impact and dramatic power because really it should be shakings to the core every time we read it, either with delight in the mercy of God that we are favored to enjoy by His grace or with absolute horror and shame at our wickedness.

But I don't believe in the evangelical world today, Chris, that we've really grasped the reality of sin, that we are sin, that we are evil.

We need salvation from ourselves, not just a few influences. And I think where you get this denial of absolute dependence upon grace and it's a human contribution is that people who think like that think of ourselves as sick, but we can reach for the medicine when we know the true condition.

We know that we're dead, and it takes the power that God used for the resurrection of the

Lord Jesus Christ to bring us new life. We literally have to be new creations.

And I don't know if I'm wrong in thinking this, but I would think that the creation of a sinner into one who was born from above would probably take more power than the creation of the earth because we resist it.

Wow, that is some thought that never occurred to me until you just said it. I don't know if it's accurate,

Chris, whether I'm overstating things, but that's what I feel. I just feel that, you know, the creation of a new soul is greater than the creation of the world.

That's inanimate matter. That's called into being by a fear, it's a decree of God, but we're actually resisting

His grace. And it means that grace has another nuance.

It has to be nuanced by love and affection because when Christ shows

Himself in His beauty, your free will becomes a will that is won over and becomes beautifully submissive to the

Christ. Yes, before our regeneration, this is where not only some

Reformed people misspeak and also where many, if not most,

Arminians have a caricature, a false caricature of Reformed people, is that they think we are teaching that man doesn't have a will at all and that we are forced against our desires to sin or forced against our desires to believe upon Christ and be saved, and both of those are false.

Isn't it true that our will is basically inseparably attached to our nature, so therefore before we are saved, we will to do that which makes us happy or we will to do that which gives us pleasure, and that is self -serving and sinful, and then we are finally liberated and enabled to freely and joyfully follow

Christ because we have a new nature, we have a new heart. Exactly, exactly.

We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and as always, please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Reverend Roger Salter. Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com Welcome back, this is

Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

Roger Salter, who is rector at St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, a low church and thoroughly reformed 39 -articles

Anglican congregation. Today we are addressing salvation through Christ, why is it necessary and how is it effectual?

And our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com chrisarnzen at gmail .com

Before we continue with the thread of thought we had before the break, we do have a listener in Asheboro, North Carolina.

He's a very faithful listener to this program and very faithful financial supporter of this program.

His name is Grady, and he says, Hi Brothers Chris and Roger, Growing up Southern Baptist and later becoming a

Reformed Baptist, I always thought the Anglican, Episcopalian, and Lutherans were all liberal and had left the faith.

One of the reasons I love Iron Sharpens Iron so much is because Chris has had believers like yourself and I'm so excited to have brothers and sisters in those denominations that have kept the tenets of the faith.

I've grown in love with the writings of J .C. Ryle and I've also started reading books about church history.

However, I'm confused when you talk about high and low church. Would you please explain what this means?

Are you there, brother? I am, Chris, I am. High church retains a lot of pre -Reformational theology and practice.

Well, let me be a little bit more anecdotal about that. My theological training was in Bristol, England.

And you're actually from Tasmania. People might wrongly think you're British because you do have a

British accent, at least to my American ears you do. But you're from Tasmania, right?

I built a raft and sailed away. The isolation of our island bothered me deeply.

The way local news and local events were so overemphasized and there was this big wide world outside and I wanted to get a taste of that as well.

And it's like all localities. You tend to get an overdose of local news and lose your perspective on the rest of the world.

And so I left because of the sense of isolation, which was ingrained in me from childhood.

But, yes, when I was in Bristol, which at the time was the most church -going city in England, and we had a very lively evangelical representation among a number of churches.

And, of course, Trinity College was low church evangelical. It was that wonderful era when we were taught by Jim Packer and Alec Metier and various other scholars of scripture who were also great expounders of the

Word of God. But I remember that when I met some of the

Anglican students in my post -ordination training, they were, except for honoring the

Pope as their infallible leader, more Catholic, some of these

Anglo -Catholics, more Catholic than Anglicans. And they are a group who place, and nobody can place too much importance upon the sacraments.

It's how you interpret their meaning and their effectiveness. But they believe that the sacraments are absolutely essential to God's communication of grace, that he works through the sacraments effectively, and that baptism is essential to salvation.

The sacrament is not necessarily the Mass, but it's regarded as a mystery that is difficult to explain, and I think its significance, to my mind, is not gospel -oriented, not informed by the truth of the gospel.

It's more like a... No, I mustn't say what I think, because most people are very sincere in their adherence to Anglo -Catholicism.

And there is a lot of genuine piety there, Chris. I mean, all of us are inconsistent and probably have more errors in our mind than we were ever aware of.

But I found some of them were very able to explain the walk with Christ with accuracy, but not how he is grasped.

They love Scripture, they defend it. I mean, for example, I'm trying to think of his name,

Pusey, who, to my mind, in his Anglo -Catholicism, is,

I think I would say, and I hope I'm not being offensive, I find it repellent. And yet,

John Rabbie Duncan, that great free church Scotsman and Hebraist, said that, in essence, that man was an

Augustinian. He translated Augustine. And they believed in the sovereignty of grace.

It's how grace works and how it is applied. And they give the sacraments, in some cases, more effectiveness than the

Word. Now, can you repeat the name of the person that you found repellent, but Rabbi Duncan affirmed him as a believer in the essential doctrines?

Yes. What was his name? Pusey, I can't remember. Oh, yes, right. That's why the Anglo -Catholics are called the

Puseyites. Yes, this is W .B. Pusey, I'm not sure from memory.

But some of them do adhere, in different language to us, to Augustinianism.

And they would hold it very dearly. But unfortunately, as with the case with Thomas Aquinas, thoroughly

Augustinian, but it's weakened by their view of the effectiveness of the sacraments.

In other words, all who receive the sacraments without resisting the grace of God receive that grace, and we don't believe that.

Right, they're sacerdotal. Yes, exactly, exactly. And the Church has a special character and nature that I think is an exaggeration of what it is.

It's a company of believers, recipients of the grace of God. We're talking about the true believer, you know, as Wycliffe said, the invisible

Church is the company of all the predestined. But unfortunately, there is an efficacy given to the

Church as an institution that I don't think the Church has. And see, what

I'm thinking about today is the centrality, the fact that Christ is indispensable, absolutely essential to our salvation, the author of it, the perfecter of it, and the one who by His Spirit brings us home to our own hearts and lives, and is the one who works within us towards holiness and effective service of God.

I feel that somehow, in so many varieties of the Christian faith,

Christ has been edged out of that focus. And to me, baptism and the

Lord's Supper are two lenses by which we look upon the cross of Christ and what it means and what it's accomplished for us.

So it's not inconsistent with justification by faith. It buttresses that truth because the sacraments are to be received by faith.

So I'm getting slightly off the mark here with my thinking about the High Church.

It has a lot of ceremony, a lot of ritual. I think a lot of additional practices and ideas that are not germane to the

Christian faith. They can be distractions, but all of us can find distractions, too, to the centrality and the ultimate importance of Christ, that our gaze must never be taken away from Him.

Amen. And, yeah. I have met and even interviewed, however, some thoroughly

Calvinistic and thoroughly Protestant Anglicans who are High Church.

Being High Church doesn't automatically connect you with Anglo -Catholicism, am I right? No, it doesn't.

It doesn't, no. You can be High Church because you have a great, if I can put it, a great reverence towards the body of Christ and its functions, but no, by no means.

I think, you see, it's still there, Chris? Yes. Yeah. Okay.

When I was ordained, I came from an evangelical seminary. In fact, let's pick right off where you're leaving off here, about your evangelical seminary, because we have to go to our midway break.

Okay. And please be patient with us, folks. I'm sorry for the fact that this middle break needs to be so long, but Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break. In the middle of our show, they air this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format, in morning drive and then in the evening, and the

FCC requires them to localize this show to Lake City, Florida, from where they are broadcasting.

So, they air their locally heard public service announcements, while we are airing our globally heard commercials by the sponsors that keep this show on the air.

Please use this time wisely. Please write down as much of the information as you can for as many of the advertisers that you hear as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them, because, keep in mind, folks, we need our advertisers to exist.

I've had friends of mine and even just strangers who listen to the program complain about the number of ads, but remember, without those ads, this show wouldn't exist.

So, please write down the information they provide and respond to them as often as you can, and also write down a question for Roger Salter, and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

U .S .A. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be back after these messages with more of Roger Salter.

Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled Consider the

Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. And currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the 4th largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225

Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit lynnbrookbaptist .org. That's lynnbrookbaptist .org. When Iron Trump and Zion Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the

Brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the

Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,

Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, this is John Sampson, Pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider

Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654 That's 908 -996 -7654

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life bringing so many uncertainties.

When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnzen and Pastor Joe Jakowitz as they explore

God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues. Tune in at firstloveradio .org

That's firstloveradio .org Each Friday at 1 p .m.

Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org

Fridays, 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern to hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how we should respond.

Hail the power of Jesus' name

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And don't forget, folks, you can call cvbbs .com Monday through Friday between 10 a .m.

and 4 .30 p .m. Eastern Time only at 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231

Only call during those days and hours Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 4 .30 p .m. Eastern because there is no voicemail and there will be no one to man that phone line before or after those hours.

Please always mention that you heard about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio from Chris Arnzen, or should

I say from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I reversed that sentence. But anyway, we thank cvbbs .com

for their faithful support of this show and for mailing out the Bibles and books and DVDs and other things that people win when we are giving those items away on this program.

And we thank them so much for their support. And before we return to our guest today,

Roger Salter, who is rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and our discussion

Salvation Through Christ, Why is it Necessary and How is it Effectual? We just have a few announcements to make.

First of all, tonight, this will be at 7 p .m.

Pacific Time for our West Coast listeners and 10 p .m. Eastern Time My friend,

Pastor Joe Jakowicz, who is pastor of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, and the founder of First Love Radio, where you are hearing this program live -streamed all over the world, he is going to be hosting the

Bible Talk program on First Love Radio. And his theme is

Three Reasons to Hold Fast to Your Confession, drawing largely from Hebrews 4, 14 -16.

And Pastor Joe is also heard every day, Monday through Friday, immediately following Iron Sharpens Iron Radio at 6 p .m.

Eastern. So make sure that, if you can, keep listening to the live -streaming and you'll hear really powerful sermons by Pastor Joe Jakowicz.

Also, folks, don't forget, I had to make the sad announcement that I'm reminding you about that, since Banner of Truth had to postpone their

East Coast Ministers' Conference that featured Dr. Conrad Mbewe of Kabwatha Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, among others, we had to also postpone the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio free spring pastors' luncheon here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, because Dr.

Mbewe was our keynote speaker at that event. In fact, I don't even think that in May, unless things ease up quicker than I believe,

I don't think that they're taking foreign flights into the United States right now because of the coronavirus hysteria.

So, hopefully, we'll be giving you wonderful news about a new date when you can register for the

Iron Sharpens Iron pastors' luncheon. Last but not least, folks, if you really love this show, you love hearing the guests and the topics that are frequently not heard anywhere else, you love sharing the free downloadable

MP3s with your family, friends, and loved ones, you love winning books and Bibles by submitting questions to our guests, especially when we're interviewing authors, or if you're a first -time listener, you get a

Bible from the New American Standard Bible Publishers, if you love this show for all these reasons and more, then can you please help us remain on the air?

Please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card, and you can also mail in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail to the address that appears on the screen when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

Please, as I've reminded you every day, never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to to your local church where you're a member in order to give to Iron Sharpen Zion Radio.

Never do that, and never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpen Zion Radio.

Those two things are commands of Scripture providing for your church and your home. Providing for this radio show is obviously not a command of Scripture, but if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, and you have extra money, especially since this current quarantine that's been going on with the coronavirus hysteria, you have not been going to your favorite sporting events, you have not been going to the movies, you have not been going to theatrical performances or concerts or Bible conferences or fine dining or anything else that you used to enjoy doing, that takes typically a considerable portion of one's income.

Well, since you have that money that you haven't spent on those things, can you please use some of it to help

Iron Sharpen Zion Radio remain on the air? And by the way, I thank all of you who have been answering the call for help.

There have been a new stream of donors that have been coming in lately, and I am praising

God from the very depths of my heart for you. Some of you, I have never heard from before, and that is always a joy as well, and it's always a joy to see my faithful monthly supporters continue in sponsoring this program, even though they may be having a hard time financially due to this current pandemic.

But if you haven't given before and you love the show, please consider giving for the first time, and if you have already been accustomed to giving, if you can afford to donate a little bit more, that would be wonderful as well, because we lost two of our largest advertisers, and that put us in a hole, and if you could help us recover from that loss, that loss that we hope is only temporary because these two businesses have been affected greatly in a negative fashion by the coronavirus hysteria, so please help us remain on the air and help us make up for that loss.

Go to www .IanSharpensIronRadio .com, click Support, then click Click to Donate Now. If you want to advertise with us, we certainly could use your advertising dollars, as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you do need to be promoting something that's at the very least compatible with what

I believe. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and put Advertising in the subject line. Last but not least, folks, if you are not a member of a local

Bible -believing church, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you are living in rebellion against God.

There is no such thing in the New Testament as a maverick, lone wolf

Christian who is not submissive to a local body of elders in a local church, who is just either roaming around, church hopping, and never joining any church they visit, or they don't visit any church at all.

That is a Christian who is in a state of sin, or it's a false professor.

So please rectify that situation immediately, and if you need help finding a church, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, including

St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, where you can visit and hopefully even join if you don't have a church home, or you can recommend to your family, friends, and loved ones that do not have churches of their own, or if you're going on vacation as well.

I have lists of churches all over the planet, and I've already helped people find churches in all parts of the globe.

So send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and put

I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest,

Roger Salter. That's chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com, and give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And right before the break, Roger, you were mentioning how you went to an evangelical seminary. We were in the middle of a discussion on a high versus low church, and if you could respond in fuller detail right where you left off about the evangelical seminary where you attended.

Right, Chris. Look, I don't want to get too much carried away with personal anecdotes, but the bishop that I was under and submissive to in Bristol assigned me to an

Anglo -Catholic parish, and it was not deeply, totally

Anglo -Catholic. There were elements of Anglo -Catholicism that were believed.

My conscience wasn't disturbed because everything was based on the liturgy and the word that I was involved in.

I did go back to the seminary and consult some of my tutors about it, and the advice

I was given was go as a missionary. And I weighed that up and I thought that's a very valid reason to go because I find that whilst

I am not attracted in the least to Anglo -Catholicism as a movement,

I won't say anything more, I just don't find it in any way attractive, but to go and minister among people who needed the gospel of Christ, and I found so many who did that essentially in their hearts and lives they knew of their need of him, they knew that they were sinful and needed forgiveness, and when

Christ was presented to them, they were positively receptive. And I just feel that under many situations,

Christ shields his people against human embellishments and still enables them to hear his voice.

They hear what he wants them to hear. They don't notice what is dangerous to them.

I don't know if that would be an adequate explanation for anybody else, but it was really a missionary task, and I found that I was not compromised at all,

I was sometimes rebuked for some of the things I said, but that can happen in any situation, and it was just to say that in a sense it was like the bishop playing a prank.

He said, you've come from the most evangelical seminary in the country. We'll teach you a lesson.

But... And again,

I have no taste for Anglo -Catholicism, particularly in its pure form and in its practice, but there is a continuity all the way through the history of the church where the essential truth of God is retained in every generation, and when you have the creeds of the ancient church and the thought of godly men who were not dominated by the inventions of Rome, many of them fought against it in their generation.

I just sense that sometimes one has to tread a little delicately, and I wouldn't want to go into further opinion, because whilst

I dislike the movement, I'll say it intensely, I don't like it. I would say that some of the people caught up within it, and it's their only so -called

Christian background, there are elements from Scripture and the liturgy that you can lawfully employ, whoever your rector or bishop is, that can reach the hearts of God's people.

And one thing that I'm sure you agree with, especially after hearing what you just said, is that I have witnessed something that saddens me greatly.

I have witnessed people who profess to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, who profess to believe in the true gospel, who profess to be personally evangelical and Bible -believing

Christians who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and so on, but they will join, or at least frequently or weekly attend, a church just because they love the high liturgy.

And the high liturgy trumps everything else. And I know

Bible -believing, or at least those that profess to be Bible -believing Christians, who will even attend an

Episcopal church that has more of a high church liturgy, even if that church is apostate, because they just love hearing and participating in the liturgy that goes on.

Now, I have to be quick to add here, I know of some very biblically faithful congregations in the

Episcopal Church USA, which is the most liberal of the denominations in that family of churches, but there are some holdouts, some faithful churches that even believe in the

Thirty -Nine Articles and so on. There is debate over whether they should remain in a denomination like that, but the vast majority in this day and age of Episcopalians, it seems, have caved in to apostasy.

So don't you think it is wrong for people to put their love of liturgy in a top priority that trumps everything else?

Would I say it was wrong? Absolutely. I think it's an idolatry. I know from my experience among choirs in Anglican churches that the people are only there for the music or because they like to sing in a choir and their ears are deaf to the gospel they hear.

I was in one church where the organist would pull out the Sunday Times and read it, and the children in the choir were encouraged to read

Doctor Who comics. And so, you know, you would turn in the pulpit towards them and hope that somehow you would awaken their conscience that this is their duty is to hear the word of God.

There are so many distractions, I think, and I think religion is very dangerous apart from that exclusive focus upon the

Lord Jesus and his word. And, you know, there are so many traps for people to fall into.

I mean, Roger Scruton, the philosopher who died in the last couple of months, was a self -confessed atheist, but he played the organ in his parish church because he loved the music.

And, yeah, it's sad. It's sad that people's focus is all wrong, and it's amazing how even under the word so many people are deaf and dead to the gospel makes you realize that only

Christ can raise us again. We have to be his sheep and hear his glories. Yes, and if anybody out there listening has the ear of Tucker Carlson on Fox News, he openly admits that he has a disdain for the liberalism of the

Episcopal Church USA, and he only attends worship in that denomination because he loves the liturgy.

So people should inform Tucker that there are conservative,

Bible -believing, scripturally faithful Anglican churches out there with a liturgy that he would love equally as much.

And, in fact, I believe there are some not far from where he lives. I mean, he lives in Washington, D .C., and I believe there are some very close to that area.

There are some very good churches in that area, yes. We have a question from Andrew in Dalton, Georgia, which reminds me that we have a guest tomorrow who is the pastor of the

Kinsley Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia. Andrew says,

Hi, Brothers Chris and Roger. I also have come to love and appreciate Bishop J .C.

Ryle. My question is, in the American denomination, it is my understanding that the name

Episcopal from the Greek, often translated as Bishop, is so used in reference to the governance or polity of the

Church. Why and or how is the term emphasized in the actual governing of the

Church? Well, the New Testament uses the term interchangeably.

Sometimes it's translated Presbyter, and sometimes

Or overseer, too. Overseer, that's right. And those of us in the low church prefer the term

Presbyter to priest because of the connotations of priesthood. But it's not in any sense the bishop is understood by the

Church of Rome or certain other Episcopalian churches that are governed in that way.

The term is used because of its traditional acceptance in the

Anglican Church, but bishops are really governing elders who are equipped with both the gospel and administration, and certainly that's the way we low church people view it.

High church, of course, sees something mystical and essential to the nature of the Church in the lineage of bishops.

What is it? The succession, the apostolic succession, which we don't recognize.

In fact, so many bishops have led us astray, so there's nothing automatically good about Episcopal ordination, and so we have great reservations about that teaching.

But it's just a matter of language, really, and theological meaning.

Well, thank you, Andrew, and make sure you listen to the program tomorrow when we have

Pastor Ron McKinney on, pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia.

So thanks for listening. Going back to the centrality of our conversation, must we not always make sure that nothing even comes close to eclipsing the gospel when we are prayerfully choosing a church?

Too many people have as a priority the size of the church, whether it's extremely large, or some prefer it to be tiny.

But many prefer joining a church just because they love the church band, orchestra, or music in general, or because they have a lot of programs for the little children to be involved in.

Yes. And all these things may be nice, but they should never even come close to eclipsing the preaching of the

Word and the faithfulness of the Church to the Scriptures. Am I right? Yeah, I think the fundamental principle in selecting a church is, is the gospel preached faithfully and fully?

It's the Word of God that draws us to the people of God, not any other provision. The quality of the coffee, the church timetable during the week as to what amuses the children.

I find there's so much emphasis now on attracting children and looking after them that the churches become childish themselves.

And there's nothing strong, mature, powerful, and convincing emanating from those congregations.

So, yes, I think, you know, the fundamental number of people, as Christ says, is two or three gathered together.

And if He works and decides to work among those two or three, it's more effective than withholding

His power in a church of 5 ,000 people who are just there for all sorts of crazy reasons.

And usually it's about child -minding during the week, I find, what's going to entertain and occupy the children.

Yeah, that's, that's quite a shame. I think it would be wise for us also to have you,

I don't remember you explaining this at the beginning of the show, and I don't think

I asked it, but tell us about the fellowship from which

St. Matthew's Anglican Church of Birmingham, Alabama comes. I know that you have different independent churches that identify themselves as Anglican, and also those who are in certain fellowships that have either broken away from the

Episcopal Church USA or have just formed afresh as a

Bible -believing independent group of believers, a fellowship of churches.

If you could, tell us more about where St. Matthew's is coming from. I just want to be brief about this,

Chris. I mean, we were associated with a large continuing movement.

I don't mean the continuing movement in its best -known form of about 19 or 20 different little affiliations, but, well,

I'm the commission in America, and I was told my theology was too high and that I didn't really fit into that institution, and, again,

I withhold myself at the moment from any affiliation. We are independent.

Chronologically, I'm very close to retirement, so I don't want to get caught up in that kind of thing anymore, and, to be honest, no,

I won't say what I really feel. I have to be very careful, Chris. I have some opinions that...

Well, you can speak freely on my show. I don't have any hang -ups about that. Yeah. I have a lot of reservations about the institutional church.

I find, in my experience, there have been very few bishops that I have been in accord with spiritually and theologically.

They've been quite decent to me in human terms, very cordial in their attitude towards me, but, you see, if I had stayed in England, I'd be a part of that increasingly apostate body on the other side of the

Atlantic. How could one function in that? And, so, for my last few years,

I'm just happy for us to be cranmerian and to do as much as we can to uphold the wonderful heritage that we have, that scriptural heritage and the wisdom of past ages, men who walked with God in humility and were taught by him through scripture and through, as Spurgeon says, the brains of godly men, and I think that suffices for us at the moment.

To my mind, any denomination, however it appears to be godly, if it doesn't state within its canons clearly that the

Bible is the word of God, not just the source book for sermons or our best thoughts, but the word of God, if it doesn't state that with clarity and with conviction,

I can't join it. Well, thank you for that explanation, and we're going to our final break right now.

It's going to be much briefer than the last one, so if you have a question, send it in immediately to chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. In fact, we have some people writing in questions who are not telling me where they are from, they're not telling me their city, state, or country.

Please include that with your question. That's why I repeat it all the number of times that I repeat that request.

Please give us your city and state and country of residence. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio. We have a first -time questioner who actually comes our way through the recommendation of Dr.

James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Dear friend of mine, going back to 1995, this new listener's name is

Ian from Swansea, South Carolina. And I hope I'm pronouncing that city's name correctly.

And Ian says, I have two questions for your guest. And they are, in a nutshell, what is the basic structure of Anglican inter -local church -body interaction hierarchy?

And I'll read the second one after that. Well, obviously, you don't have any hierarchy outside of your local congregation since you're independent.

But what is generally the practice as far as church polity when it comes to Anglicanism? Chris, could

I just say something? We really wanted to talk about the centrality of Christ and not

Anglicanism. And I wonder if I could have a moment to be absolutely explicit.

Because I could die at any moment. I may not even eat supper tonight. And I follow the counsel of Richard Baxter, who says, preach every sermon as if it was going to be your last.

Would you permit me to be absolutely explicit about something? Sure. You see, at one of the breaks, we're about to continue after it, where you were saying that Armenianism acts as though man...

These are not your words, but I thought of the same thing. It speaks as if man has that natural ability to choose

Christ before regeneration. And the gospel of Armenianism is that man is sick, but he can reach for the medicine.

We preach that man is absolutely dead, done for, and inert. And we need the powerful words of Christ to raise us to new life.

And I actually want to say, because it's been in me for ages, I never want to be offensive to anyone.

But I regard Armenianism and Semipalagianism as extremely dangerous heresies.

I think they've undermined so much within the Reformed churches, the Reformed tradition, and the wonderful heritage that we have.

And I'm just looking now, if you would permit me, Chris, I don't want to be awkward, but talking about Christ and his being absolutely essential and his work being effective, because if anyone speaks about Christ failing to convert his own and keeping his own, they are saying that the

Son of God can fail in his purpose, which he never will do. We only have to read Hebrews, and I know people bring up other passages, but we have to be consistent in the fact that Christ, in his set purpose, never fails.

Would you permit me, Chris, just to read briefly his raising of Lazarus? Of course. Because I think that is the best illustration of salvation, rebirth, and resurrection that there is in the example of somebody that Christ dealt with personally, intimately, and affectionately.

So, in John chapter 11, Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb.

It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. Take away the stone, he said. You see, how could

Lazarus ever leave that tomb? There's a stone there that a weak man could not move.

It's a sort of introduction to the removal of the stone at the empty tomb.

And I don't want to be guilty of too much allegory, but I think the stone that is in every human's heart is our captive will in bondage to sin,

Satan, and the world. And only the power of Christ, his omnipotence, can break through that resistance and barrier.

But Lord, said Martha, the sister of the dead man, that's what an unregenerate, carnal person is, a dead man before God.

By his time, he has a bad odor, for he has been there four days. Our lives were a bad odor from start to finish.

Then Jesus said, did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God? That glory of God revealed in the renovation of human nature.

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, Father, I thank you that you have heard me.

That's always the answer to Jesus' prayers for his people. Bring them home to yourself. Keep them forever.

Conduct them into the kingdom of heaven. I knew you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.

And then when he had said this, he called in a loud voice, Lazarus, come out. Jesus has to call her out of our being entombed and dead in sin.

We're already in the grave, as far as our eternal destiny is concerned. Only the intervention of the

Savior can work. The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen.

There he is. He's dead behind a stone. He's dead in the grave. He smells like a dead man.

He's bound by all these grave clothes and linen strands. And how does anybody look at the story of Lazarus and not become

Reformed, Augustinian, Calvinistic? I don't know. Jesus said to them, take off the grave clothes and let him go.

That's a wonderful living analogy of new birth, of our being translated from darkness to light and death to life.

And to me, Arminianism is something that diminishes the glory, the power, the grace, the effectiveness of Christ.

He alone can save the soul. Nobody can make one contribution to their redemption.

And I want to say, and it may be rude, I dislike Arminianism to the core of my being.

And I call it Augustinianism because I get, poor old Calvin gets such a bad press.

You know what I mean? Oh, of course. I'm a predestinarian to the core. I'm not making a boast. I'm just saying that if it were not for predestination and the power of grace,

I wouldn't be speaking to you now, Chris. Well, that was a very powerful message that you gave, and I agreed with every word.

If I could, I will intertwine our listeners' second question to what you just said, because Ian's a first -time listener, and I would like to pay him the respect of at least having something that he answered.

I don't want to be impolite. Well, what you said is obviously more important than anything that we can think of.

But he asks, how does the above, meaning church polity, allow for theological differences with the main body of local church bodies?

This is how I'll tie it into what you just said. You are obviously independent, because there is too wide of a spectrum in the existing

Anglican bodies, typically, that you are not comfortable with. You just revealed your serious disdain for Arminianism and Pelagianism, and obviously, you don't want to identify with either

Oxford Movement, Romish Anglicanism, or apostate, liberal

Anglicanism. So, when it comes to the gospel, is that why you have remained independent, because you are so protective of that core, essential, eternal truth of the gospel?

I think that is true. It's no credit to me at all, Chris. I cannot see how we can mix with people of fundamentally different approaches to the nature of Christ, the work of Christ, His necessity, and the effects of His grace within us.

I just cannot... You know, I follow, and I follow it with charity, and nobody was more friendly and empathetic towards others than Rabbi John Duncan.

He was such a sweet -natured man. But he said, never let an Arminian in your pulpit. And I receive links to which

Jonathan Edwards went to counter Arminianism. I believe it is a more serious heresy than is recognized, even by Calvinists.

It doesn't mean we don't meet with those who pray. I know there are those who regenerate, even if they don't agree with the process that I would advocate.

The mercy of God is great and vast and wide. And we do deal with individuals,

I think, knowing that they're not necessarily consistent with the ways of operating in their present denomination.

But no, I don't see how I can minister with people with the same label who are liberals, who are deniers of all of the supernatural in Holy Scripture, who reduce the

Bible to a silly social gospel and invent silly stories and fantasies from the pulpit.

It's terrible. And I'm not surprised that we are seeing the crisis we have today.

I think it's a cleansing. I don't say that because people think we're callous if we think of judgment.

But I have a little rhyme that came to me on Saturday and it says, if providence brings harm, then listen to the alarm because I see

God behind everything. I don't understand what he's doing. I cannot discriminate. He's far more, what's the word, versatile than I am.

He needs to be interpreted very carefully. But to me, any trouble that occurs, knowing that at the end of the world there's going to be a fierce judgment, if God gives us a foretaste of it now in order to warn people of it, that's his prerogative.

We are sympathetic with those who suffer and those who fear and those who are outside of the kingdom.

But, you know, the wrath to come is unbearable, Chris. And if God gives evidence of that wrath in history, it's to educate us, to drive us to himself.

And I can't understand all these Christians who are biblical and I realize that we have to be careful in our interpretation, but nuancing this pandemic to say that God's not behind it, that God's not in it.

And we all treat it in a naturalistic, materialistic way. That, to me, is unfaithful to God.

I can't explain it, but I just think that, you know, in a sense, I think for Christians now, largely speaking and probably unwisely,

I think denominationalism is done for. All we can do is be loyal in our own parish, our own congregation.

If God wants to introduce something larger on the scene, that would be wonderful. But at the moment,

I don't see something that is absolutely committed to the word of God in terms of a denomination or an institution.

And, by the way, Ian, if you would like to communicate with Roger Salter after the program to have more specific answers to your exact questions, you can either email me or, if Roger feels comfortable announcing his email address, we'll have him do that.

But as a first -time questioner, Ian, you have won a free

New American Standard Bible. So if you could give me your full mailing address in Swansea, South Carolina, I will have cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, ship that Bible out to you at no cost to you or to Ian Sharpe and Zion Radio.

Thank you so much for listening and submitting a question. Actually, two questions. We have time for one more quick question.

Mary in Cork, Ireland, wants to know, especially for the sake of our family, friends, and loved ones who may be so in love with Anglican liturgy that they will never visit any other denomination, is there a website or resource where we can steer them to solid, biblically faithful congregations from that tradition?

I think there are websites, particularly you'll find these churches among the

ACNA, Anglican Church in North America affiliation. I know there are others that are more independent.

We could email Mary because I do have some connections, but we're small and far -flung and it's very hard to have inter -parish relationships.

But there are Anglicans who hold dear to our heritage from the time of the

Reformation. And I would also recommend that people read the sermons and journals and letters of George Whitefield to see

Anglicanism come alive as a strong evangelistic movement. Great.

Well, it's been such a pleasure having you on the program, Roger, and if you could stay on the phone after we go off the air because I want to book another interview with you while I have the calendar right in front of me.

And I want to thank everybody who listened today, perhaps especially our first -time listener,

Ian, in South Carolina. Thank you so much for submitting your questions and for joining the audience of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

I want to thank everybody else and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives

Jesus Christ is a far, far greater Savior than you are a sinner.