A Plethora of Questions

Kongsvinger Lutheran Church

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All right, I'm going to jump in here. My apologies for cutting your wonderful conversation short today.

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That is one of the drawbacks of having the services from my office. So, what

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I'm going to do here, hold on a second here, I am going to, I'm going to mute everybody.

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And what we're going to do is we're going to pray and we're going to get started. And I did see that there was a question about the

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Apostles' Creed. You know, what does it mean when it says Christ ascended into hell? We're actually going to talk about that and I'll show you the biblical text behind it.

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And it's not what a lot of people think. So, best way I can put it. So, let's pray and then we will get into our study together.

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Lord Jesus, again, as we open your word, we recognize that apart from your Holy Spirit, we can't even have the endurance and the strength and the joy to rejoice and straighten up when you, when

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Christ returns in glory. So, we ask then that through your power and strength, we may rightly understand your word so that we can glorify you on the day of Christ's return, rightly confessing what

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Christ has done for us in the truth of scripture and also bearing fruit and keeping worth repentance in love and good works towards neighbor.

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We ask in Jesus' name. Amen. All right. So, I'm at the bottom of the list here and I saw that Jeff Kenney wrote, question came up during the

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Apostles' Creed. What does it mean that, quote, he descended into hell? All right. That is a great question.

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And it comes up often and it's, let me put it this way. This is kind of like one of the forgotten teachings of Christianity, at least in evangelicalism.

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And then in the word of faith heresy, they've put their own spin on this.

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And so, in the word of faith heresy, guys like Kenneth Copeland legitimately teach that Jesus descended into hell and that he suffered in hell.

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Okay? And that was part of his atoning work. I'm going to note something here, that Jesus, when he's on the cross, right before he dies, he said, it is finished.

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He did not say almost done. Okay? So, you're going to note that. He said, it is finished.

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He did not say almost done. Now, all that being said, what we're going to do is we're going to look, we're going to start with a text from the

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Gospel of Luke so that we understand the intermediate state for people, humans, prior to the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

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Okay? So, you have to kind of think of it this way, is that what happened to saints in the Old Testament is actually different than what happens to saints in the

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New Testament. And so, when you read your Old Testament, when you read the

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Old Testament, you will hear things like that somebody died and went to be with their fathers in Sheol.

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Okay? Sheol is the place of the dead. In Hebrew, that's the word, Sheol. And so, in the

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Gospel of Luke chapter 16, Jesus actually describes Sheol for us. And this is, how shall we say it, prior to his death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.

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And so, Jesus tells a story, and this is not a parable, by the way. This doesn't read like a parable.

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When Jesus tells a parable, he'll say something like, the kingdom of God can be compared to, and then he gives, it can be compared to a mustard seed.

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The kingdom of God can be compared to an old lady who had an unjust judge who demanded justice from him.

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But this account doesn't begin with words like that. Instead, it begins with these words. There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen, who feasted sumptuously every day.

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And there was, at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table.

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You're going to note, the setup here is actually quite interesting. And I always like to point out, what was the name of that rich man again?

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It was, what's his face? I don't know his name.

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Do you know? I don't know his name. And I don't think that's a throwaway detail. I always like to point out that, if your name is written in the

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Lamb's book of life, God knows your name. That's a good thing. Okay? Everybody who goes to hell, who experiences

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God's eternal punishment, they go to hell nameless. Christ says, I don't know who you are.

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I never knew you. What's your name again? And so, that's an important little detail.

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But then you're going to note here, this rich man had the means to help Lazarus.

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Lazarus needs medical attention. He needs food. He needs clothing. He needs a lot of help here.

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And the man, basically, Lazarus is sitting right outside the gate to his property, and the rich man doesn't lift a finger to help him.

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Remember, the law of God can be summarized in two commands, love the

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Lord your God, love your neighbor, right? That being the case. Does this rich man love either?

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Uh -uh. No, he don't love either. The rich man loves himself, because what does he do?

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He's clothed in fine linen and purple, feasted sumptuously every day.

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All right. And so, you get the idea here. So, the poor man, he died, and he was carried by the angels to Abraham's side, or in the

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Greek, you can actually say, kopos, could be like his bosom. And so, this then is describing for us

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Sheol. And the best way I can put it is that Sheol has two compartments.

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So, where the dead went before, at least the believers, they would go to Sheol, and they would go to the part of Sheol known as Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side.

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Those who did not believe, who persisted in sin and in penitence and unbelief, they end up in a place that Christ calls

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Hades, which oftentimes gets translated as hell, but that's not really what the proper understanding of hell is.

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Okay. It's a temporary holding bin that is just like hell. Okay.

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But it's still a temporary thing for those who are damned, and because their ultimate destiny is the lake of fire, but this is the holding bin itself.

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So, Sheol is where all souls went, believing and unbelieving. Abraham's bosom is the side where believers go.

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Hades is the place where unbelievers go. And then you can see how Jesus describes the two places.

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All right. So, let's see. The poor man died, was carried by the angels to Abraham's side.

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The rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw

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Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me.

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Send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I'm in anguish in this flame.

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But Abraham said, child, remember that in your lifetime, you received your good things and Lazarus in like manner, bad things, but now he's comforted here and you are in anguish.

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And besides all of this between us and you, there's a great chasm that has been fixed in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able and none may cross from there to us.

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So, but Hades and Abraham's bosom, there was a chasm between the two to prevent travel between the two compartments of Sheol.

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So, then he said, I beg you father to send him to my father's house for I have five brothers so that he may warn them lest they also come into this place of torment.

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But Abraham said, well, they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. So, he said, no,

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Father Abraham, no, even Abraham knows how the means of grace works. They have the

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Bible. Okay. Let them hear the Bible. He said, no, Father Abraham, but if somebody goes to them from the dead, they will go to Bethel church in Redding, California.

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Sorry. My bad.

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If someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. Here's Abraham. He said, if they will not hear

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Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead. Full stop.

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Okay. It is through the word of God that somebody is brought to repentance. So, yeah, that's the story.

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So, that helps us out there. So, note then, the question then occurs, and it's a valid question, where did

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Jesus go when he said it is finished and he gave up his spirit, right?

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Where did he go? We actually have two very vague biblical texts that tell us, all right?

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And I'll show you what those are. So, vague biblical text number one is going to be

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Ephesians. No, I should probably go with 1 Peter. All right. 1 Peter chapter three, 1 Peter chapter three, and listen to what it says here.

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For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and he proclaimed, keruxin here is the

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Greek word for preach. He proclaimed, he preached to the in prison, because they formerly did not obey when

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God's patience waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared. So, here in this passage, that's vague passage number one.

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Basically, it's really clear. Christ goes down to Sheol, and what does he do? He preaches.

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He preaches to who? The disobedient spirits, the ones who are in torment in Hades, and what is he preaching?

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Pretty much his victory. I was right, you were wrong, I win, you lose, you refuse to repent, and I have vindicated my saints, bled and died for their sins.

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And of course, you've heard the passage that when Christ ascended, he led a host of captives in his train, right?

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That passage is referring to the fact that when at Christ's ascension, he evacuated all of the saints in Abraham's bosom, and now the intermediate state, we know this from the book of Revelation, the intermediate state for all

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Christians is they don't go to Sheol, they go to heaven. They actually are before Christ in heaven.

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That's the intermediate state for Christians, whereas the intermediate state for unbelievers continues to be

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Sheol or Hades. That continues to be the case. Now, next vague text is going to be in Ephesians 4.

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Hang on a second here. What did I do with that? I probably put it over here.

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Hang on a second here. Nebuchadnezzar, no, that ain't. All right. So, here's vague text number two, but still biblical.

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Let's see. In saying that he ascended, talking about Christ, what does it mean? This is Ephesians 4 .9,

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but that he also descended into the lower regions of the earth. He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all heavens that he might fill all things.

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All right. So, you get the idea. So, here we have this other passage that talks about Christ descending.

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So, and you're going to know, our English translations translate the word

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Hades as hell in the Apostles' Creed. There are alternative translations of the

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Apostles' Creed that say he descended into Sheol, which oddly enough, I find those translations to be a little more accurate as to what's going on biblically.

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And I think it would cause a lot less confusion if we translated it that way. But, you know, but alas, we are saddled with a decision that somebody else made long before we ever existed.

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So, you know, the English translation then of the Apostles' Creed says that he descended into hell. And by that, we're not talking about the lake of fire, we're talking about Sheol, we're talking about Hades, and we know that he went to proclaim his victory.

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And then, you know, and in saying that he ascended, he led a host of captives in his train, scripture says.

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There's an interesting old, and let me see if I can pull this up, very old hymn called the

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Taddaeum, which I love, by the way. The Taddaeum is part of my daily devotions.

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In the Taddaeum, in the service known as Matins, hang on a second here,

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I go here, and let me just kind of fast forward just a little bit.

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Taddaeum is one of the oldest, and I mean this, oldest hymns in Christianity.

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Okay? And in here, you have, I think, kind of exemplified the doctrine that the intermediate state for Christians is different.

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But if you're not familiar with the Taddaeum, I mean, our oldest extant existing copy of this goes back to the third century,

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I think we recently found a third century copy of this thing. But up until maybe a decade or so ago, the oldest copy you had, we knew that we could trace it back to the fourth century, but we have a copy now of a fragment of it that goes back to the third century.

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And so this is Taddaeum. Let me see, how do you spell it?

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Let me see if I can go back and see if it gives us the spelling here. No, what did I just do?

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Rose, bro, sorry, I hit the wrong button. Okay. Let's do this. Okay.

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So the venite. All right. Let's see here. Let's see if the

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Taddaeum, the spelling is over here. Yeah. Te, this is a little small.

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Let me see if I can make that a little bit bigger. Hang on a second here without losing my place. Yeah, here we go.

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Taddaeum. Taddaeum. We praise you, oh God. All right. T -E and then

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D -E -U -M, Taddaeum. And if you're not familiar with this particular hymn, it has been a practice of Christians for millennia to pray matins at nine in the morning, vespers at three in the afternoon.

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That's a practice that predates Roman Catholicism, just so you know. But the way the hymn goes, we praise you, oh

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God, we acknowledge you to be the Lord. All the earth now worships you, the Father everlasting.

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To you, all the angels cry aloud, the heavens and all the powers therein. To you, cherubim and seraphim continually do cry.

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And it's just a wonderful hymn. But here in the key change, there's, when you took upon yourself to deliver man, you humbled yourself to be born of a virgin.

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When you had overcome the sharpness of death, listen to this stanza, you open the kingdom to all believers.

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You can see it in the theology here. So the understanding is, is that when Christ ascended, he led a host of captives in his train and the church has always understood that text then to mean that with Christ's ascent into Sheol, that with his ascension, he opened the kingdom of heaven to all believers.

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And you can see this in the super -de -duper ancient hymn, which I think is super helpful. So I don't know if you wanted the long answer to the question, what does it mean he ascended into hell, but we got it anyway.

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So hopefully that answers your question, Kenny family. All right. Let me back up. All right.

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Very good. Okay. So, all right. I just want to make sure I'm doing my job. All right. I'm the servant of the congregation.

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So my job as servant is to be a resident theologian and answer of all questions. So it kind of goes with the gig.

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All right. Let's see here. I'm going to back all the way back up. So yeah, it's still snowing here.

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Beautiful Sunday, we are in a blizzard. Yes, it's snowing and it's blowing. That's how the locals talk here.

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So you ask, when you're in the middle of the thing, they'll say, it's snowing and blowing. And it's the blowing part that's the most dangerous bit.

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Who cares about if it's snowing? But if it's blowing, I mean, I could literally get lost between my back door and my trash can.

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Okay. When the visibility gets, you get the whiteout stuff going on. And that's a thing, by the way.

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It's a dangerous thing. Yeah. So snowing and blowing. All right. Let's see. Barb, stop playing that organ. Rachel says,

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I'm sending Carmen all my snow pics. Rachel, you're doing this backwards. What you need to ask

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Carmen to do is go outside of her house and take some photos of where she lives and send them to you so that you can have warm feelings inside.

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Because she lives in the U .S. Virgin Islands. And let's just say that the snow that we're experiencing right now,

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I'd trade it any day of the week for what she's experiencing. In fact, hang on a second. I'm getting a download.

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I feel, I'm having a feeling here. Carmen needs a pastoral visitation

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ASAP. Okay. So do

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I hear an amen? Yeah, I am jealous, but I'm trying not to be.

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Yeah. It's been a while since I've been where you are. And I hope to return again someday.

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Have to go visit Sheldon in Barbados and Carmen in the U .S. Virgin Islands. What?

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How'd they get on the plane with that? Okay. So just so you know,

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I have the ability to travel with a gun on a plane as long as it's checked.

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Okay. There's an actual procedure. You have to have like a special kind of lock box for it. It was on him.

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Okay. Yeah. No. Oh my

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God. He was in his eighties.

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Oh man. Yeah. As Ricky Ricardo would say, he's got some splaining to do. So, you know, yeah.

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You're not supposed to bring those things in your luggage like that. Wow. Okay. All right.

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That's terrible. So, all right. Let's see here. Stop worrying and embrace the end of the world.

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Joshua, how I learned to stop worrying and embrace the end of the world. That might be a better... Josh, I think your edit on my title may be better.

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I like it. I like it. So, it's not quite the don't worry, be happy thing, that stupid song.

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It's not really the same as that. It's by faith, knowing what's coming, it's a different interpretation of all of the terrible things happening in the world, right?

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So, that helps us. All right. So, here we got everyone screaming Omicron, right? And yeah,

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I look at that and go, cool, Jesus is going to be here soon. And in the meantime, it's annoying.

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Okay. Yeah. And just saying, you know, but do keep Ryan and Amy Seavers, you know, having had

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COVID, I don't wish that on anybody. It's terrible. Okay. And there's a big difference between a head cold and COVID.

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You don't want it. So, the fact that both of them have, and they have kids, you know, living at home.

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So, both of them have been admitted to the hospital. Please keep them in your prayers. So, last name could have been straight from Zachariah, in my opinion.

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Oh, that's great. Okay. OBB Care, Orthodox...

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Carlos and MJ are kind of trying to rework our acronym here, you know, because, you know, I've never liked the term

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Lutheran. I just think it's just bad marketing, man. You know, because, you know, there are people who rightly point out

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Luther had some problems. He did. Okay. You know, he just, he absolutely was a sinner saved by grace.

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Emphasis on the word there. But let's see here. Orthodox, Pentecostal, Baptist, Catholic, Apostolic, Reformed, Evangelicals.

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Love it. But if there's a split in the church, theologically,

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North -South, but are you a Northern OBB Care person? Or are you part of the

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Southern group? Anyway, seems to change the letters around. You get moronic. Okay. I must be out of the loop.

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At least the latest virus, new COVID baby. Yeah, thanks. All right. Sounds like the name of a video game.

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I love some of the memes that people are putting out, saying, I'm not afraid of Omicron. I'm more afraid of the Alpha and the Omega.

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It's like, yeah, I like what you're doing with that. All right. Hard to keep track of all of them.

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Yep. Going to run out of letters. Will they switch to Hebrew after they run out of Greek letters?

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I don't know what they're going to do. So there's so much to unpack. Yeah. Jen says that was practical.

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Thanks, Jen. I'm not usually comfortable doing the practical sermonage kind of stuff.

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I just like to impractically preach the text. But I saw something practical there and I thought, well, might as well kill two birds with one stone.

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All right. Let's see here. Carmen says, I've cried over this many times because I don't know where my sister, cancer,

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Alzheimer, stroke have gone to abode. It pains me so much that they might be in eternal judgment.

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And yeah, and that's part of the tragedy of all of this is that Christ makes it very clear that belief in him divides families.

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And you can even say divides families eternally because there are people who, despite hearing the gospel, having been baptized, knowing the truth, they wander and do their own thing and they refuse to bend the knee to Christ.

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And in arrogance, they act like they know better. And that's the real tragedy of this.

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I don't think any of us are going to be on the day of judgment, being able to say that we got everybody we care about with us.

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And I oftentimes wonder when I hear the passage in scripture that says that Christ will wipe away every tear from our eyes,

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I wonder if those tears that we cry in the new earth are going to be the tears cried over the people who are not with us.

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I suspect, I can't say with certainty, my suspicion is that that may be the case.

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So, because I can already say that if I were to die today and certain people aren't already there, it's going to be devastating.

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So, people that I care about deeply. So, yeah. All right.

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So, can you talk more about Christ telling the thief on the cross today will be with me in paradise as it relates to this discussion?

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Sure. Okay. So, follow up question to where we were is the question of Christ.

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So, the thief on the cross, by the way, there's a lot of mischief done regarding that, by the way. We can talk about that thief on the cross.

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I think it's in the gospel of Luke. Hang on a second here. And near the end. So, I want to go maybe like 19.

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Hang on a second here. All right. All right.

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So, let's see here. Just scroll in, scroll in, scroll in. All right. There we go.

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Sign. Okay. So, that's our text from today. All right. So, here's the betrayal.

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We're in chapter 22. All right. Let's see here.

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All right. So, that's the road on the Via Dolorosa. Father forgive them. They don't know what they do.

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Here we go. All right. All right. So, here's the account. So, let me back this up just a smidge.

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So, two others who were criminals were led away to be put to death with Christ. And when they came to the place that is called the skull, there they crucified him and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left.

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And Jesus said, father, forgive them. They know not what they do. So, they cast lots to divide his garments and the people stood by watching, but the rulers scoffed at him saying, he saved others.

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Let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, his chosen one. So, the soldiers also mocked him coming up and offering him sour wine and saying, if you are the

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King of the Jews, save yourself. There was also an inscription over him. This is the King of the Jews. Now, one of the criminals who were hanged railed at him saying, are you not the

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Christ? Save yourself and us. But the other rebuked him saying, do you not fear

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God since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds.

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But this man has done nothing wrong. And he said to Jesus, and by the way, big word here, remember me.

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Okay. I'm telling you, this second thief, his theology is on point.

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All right. And I'll talk about this a little bit more in a second here. Jesus remembered when you come into your kingdom and he said to them, truly

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I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise. Now, the standard way to understand this just in straight up in light of the question, you know, how does this then relate to Christ's descent into hell?

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So, let's change the word hell to Sheol. Christ descends into Sheol, Abraham's bosom. It is absolutely certain then that this fellow upon his death, he also descended into Sheol with Christ and Abraham's bosom then is synonymous with that portion of Sheol that was paradisical.

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And so, calling it paradise, because these are the blessed, these are those who are with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob the blessed, you kind of get the idea.

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So, another word for Abraham's bosom would have been paradise. And now they are all beside Christ on the throne, beside his throne in heaven.

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But all that being said, let me kind of unpack a few things here, because this is a fantastic text, okay?

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So, you have a conversation with somebody about the topic of baptism, right?

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And you say, ah, it says in Acts chapter 2, be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the

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Holy Spirit. And it says in Romans 6 that when you're baptized, you're buried with Christ and you're raised with Christ.

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Your heart is circumcised by Christ, Colossians 2, and then Titus 3 that was baptism as a washing of regeneration.

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You say these things and then somebody says, what about the thief on the cross? He wasn't baptized.

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No, duh. Okay. Neither was David. Okay. You know,

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I can even, I can do you better. Abraham, not baptized. Isaac, not baptized. Jacob, not baptized.

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Moses, technically not baptized. Okay. You know, you could say, in the types and shadows, yes.

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Okay. In the Red Sea, but then, you know, you got all those, you know, Gideon, not baptized.

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Samson, not baptized. Right? So, you know, you sit there and go, what's your point?

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Okay. Well, he went to, he went to, so did

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Abraham. Oh, okay. Okay. So, what somebody's failing to do here, when they bring up the thief on the cross, it's as if they think that this is some kind of powerful argument.

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It's not. Okay. Because what's happening on the cross is that the redemption that makes it possible for the promises of the new covenant is occurring in real time.

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In other words, the thief on the cross is one of the last Old Testament saints. Okay. Okay. While Jesus is bleeding and dying for his sins, all right, he humbly confesses his guilt and he asks a super theologically charged question or a request, remember me when you come in your kingdom.

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All right. This means he knows his Bible because over and again, when you read your Old Testament, God remembers the saints.

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And that's a good thing. If God remembers your sins, that's a bad thing. Okay. And whenever you read in any of the prophets,

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God says, I am going to remember your sins. You know, that person's doomed eternally. It's all over.

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Right? But when God remembers the person, that means he's had mercy on them and forgiven them.

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And so, this request that Christ remember him is a very

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Old Testament way of saying, Jesus, please forgive me. It's exactly what that is.

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If you know your Old Testament, you can connect the dots there so quick. And so, the idea here is that he's one of the last

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Old Testament saints. But here's the thing, Old Testament saints are saved by the same blood that we are. They were never saved by the blood of goats and lambs and things like this.

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They were never saved by that. In fact, Hebrews makes that explicitly clear. All right.

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So, all the Old Testament saints were saved by looking forward to the redemption that Christ would win for them on the cross.

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New Testament saints are saved by that same blood shed by Christ on the cross, but we look back in history and this guy, well, he looked at it in real time.

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He saw the gospel taking place in real time. And so, you'll note that he humbly confesses his sin and his guilt.

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He confesses Christ's innocence and he asked Jesus to remember him. And Jesus said, you're going to be with me in paradise.

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And I love this because here's the thing. We all have people that we love who currently may have walked away from the

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Christian faith or somebody we'd like for them to believe Christ and we don't want them to die. As long as they're still breathing, there is hope.

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So, keep that in mind. And you don't always know the circumstances of someone's death. So, I always like to think that there's going to be some big surprises on the

31:07

Day of Judgment. There's going to be like, oh my goodness, you're here? No way. And I also think there's going to be people who are going to go, well,

31:16

I thought for sure he was going to be here. Where is he? I think there's going to be some people like that.

31:22

And I think of the really tragic account of Ravi Zacharias, a fellow who legitimately had a teaching gift and a great mind and steeped in impenitent, gross, egregious sin.

31:42

So, you get the idea. But yeah, so that's some of the other bits of this particular text, which

31:47

I think are so helpful. Let's see here.

31:53

There was a Transformer named Unicron. Steve at LA, we need to have a chat.

32:06

You're more than meets the eye, aren't you? Oh, sorry. Okay. Let's see.

32:13

All right. So, all right. Let's see. Okay. So, there's, okay. Pastor Rosenblum, my family, I have some questions that I need to ask, please.

32:20

All right. So, Jennings' family.

32:26

All right. So, the Jennings would love to talk with you. And what I'm going to recommend that you do, they sent me a private message, email secretary at kongsvingerchurch .org.

32:37

That's my wife. She's my secretary. And we can set up a time for us to have a

32:43

Zoom conversation where you can ask any questions that you want and get anything sorted out. And so,

32:49

I will be happy to meet with you. But the standard way, in fact, the most productive way and guaranteed way that I'm not going to end up forgetting, because I do, is that you organize this through my wife, because she makes it so that I don't forget important things like that.

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So, secretary at kongsvingerchurch .org. And then we can set up a time when we can chat.

33:12

Okay. All right. So, April says, I struggle with the Calvinist view of salvation in regards to election and then how

33:19

I grew up with It's Your Choice. But I know I can't argue God's word and what it clearly says in Ephesians.

33:26

All right. So, April, the best thing I can say is that the simplest solution for struggling with the

33:33

Calvinist view is to just get rid of it. Okay. Then you won't struggle with it anymore. My Calvinist friends are going, no!

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Yes. Okay. I'm sorry, but the Calvinists, they have gone beyond scripture.

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And you're going to note something, is that by going beyond scripture and making it and creating a category of people who are elect to damnation, oy!

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You know, that category doesn't exist in scripture. That's the category of the reprobate. And so, their doctrine of election, although they recognize the

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Bible teaches election, and it does, okay, but God, the doctrine of election works through means of grace.

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And so, again, the Lutherans embrace this idea. All right.

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Two things that sound like they're opposed to each other, but they're not. It's paradoxical. Everybody who's saved,

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God is the one who has raised them to life in Christ. Everybody who is damned, it is their fault, not

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God's. Okay. And you're going to note that in the Calvinist system where you have this category of those people who are damned, they are elected to damnation, they specifically, that doctrine does so much damage to people's faith, because over and again, people are sitting there going, what if I'm not saved?

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What if, you know, what if I'm part of the group that can't be saved because I've been elected to damnation?

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I'm just fooling myself. What's the point of even believing in Jesus? And why do they have those struggles?

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Because we still have a sinful nature. Okay. Have you noticed that when you take the sacraments and you turn them merely into symbols, okay, and God isn't working through them anymore at all.

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Why do you, baptism is a thing that I do to show the world that I've made a decision for Jesus. Do you got a biblical text for that?

35:35

No. Well, God can't do what it says he's doing in the

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Bible regarding baptism. Uh -huh. Okay. How do you know that? I just do. Right.

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Okay. And then, you know, and so what they take away the sacraments, they take away what we call the extra gnos, the external word of God.

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And now the only, so, you know, you can't hear an absolution, you can't trust that Christ has done anything to you in baptism, you can't trust that Christ is feeding you in the

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Lord's Supper and sustaining your faith. So what is the only thing I can look to now to figure out whether or not

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I'm saved or not? Answer. Progress in my sanctification. Okay.

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Have you guys seen like, you know, like the historical look at what the stock market looks like, right?

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Okay. You notice that there's bear markets and bull markets and, you know, and sometimes the market's up and sometimes the market crashes and it's down and, you know, that's what it feels like being a

36:35

Christian. Okay. You know, there are times legitimately I can sit there and go, man,

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I am so thankful because I feel like the Holy Spirit has really brought me to a place where my favorite sins are like no longer tenable.

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I love this. This is great. And then there are times when it feels like my sinful nature has got the upper hand and I can't figure out how to get this thing back under control.

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It's driving me nuts. Okay. Every day is a constant struggle and a butting of heads with my own sinful nature.

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All right. And so the experience of being a Christian, oh, and by the way, the more you understand what

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God's law demands of you in this life, as far as your thoughts, your words and your deeds, do you know that the correct experience of being a

37:28

Christian is the longer you're a Christian, the more humble you are as a result of how you recognizing just how deep sin really runs.

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You know, it's like when you first become a Christian, you have like this idea about it. You do, you understand it. But after being in church and hearing the word of God and the law of God preached and the

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Holy Spirit sanctifying you over a process of decades, what started off like this, it's just, you know, just huge.

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Okay. How I feel about myself today, I feel worse about myself today than I did when

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I was 20. I should have felt worse back then. Okay. And that's a natural thing by the working of the

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Holy Spirit. And so, if I'm supposed to look internally and somehow determine based upon the progress of my sanctification, whether or not

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I'm in or not, I am, I'm going to despair because the experience of being a

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Christian is I feel worse now today than I did, you know, decades ago, not better. All right.

38:32

And so, you gotta know that this is, the simple way to not struggle with the

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Calvinist view is to just get rid of it. All right. The Calvinists are wrong on limited atonement.

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They are absolutely wrong on the idea of people being elected to damnation. It is not

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God's will that any should perish, the scripture says, full stop. That means what it says. And it is also true, everybody who is a believer, is a believer because God, the

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Holy Spirit has worked in them and given them faith and regenerated them through the means of grace. And so, you know, you didn't choose

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Jesus, He chose you. And this is actually super comforting. Okay. And so, you know, in fact, in one of our catechism classes,

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I was talking about just how freeing this is. When you recognize that God, the Holy Spirit is the one who regenerates people, it's not your job to do that, and that He does it through means that gives you the freedom to tell everybody and anybody about the forgiveness of sins that is in Christ because of His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.

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And so, you know, telling people the gospel, start telling everybody you can, because the

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Holy Spirit promises to accompany that preaching of the gospel. And guess what? He's going to raise some people to life. And why some people believe and others don't?

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Scripture doesn't say. It's none of my business. All right? God hasn't given us the answer to that question, and I'm not qualified to answer it anyway.

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And everybody who's tried to answer that question, they end up creating a human doctrine that ultimately unravels our faith.

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All right? It's sufficient to know that everybody who's saved, God has raised them from the dead. This is most certainly true.

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And it's also sufficient to know that everybody who ends up in hell, that's their own fault, not God's. All right?

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And so, we can look now to the means of grace and the comfort and assurance that we get in hearing that our sins are forgiven, tasting the forgiveness of sins in the

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Lord's Supper, and trusting the Word of God humbly, and humbly coming to church and continuing to feed on the

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Word of God to sustain our faith, as Scripture makes it clear that that's part of its work.

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So, you get the idea. So, yeah. So, you know, I apologize for being a little cynical as far as a simple way to not struggle with Calvinist views, just get rid of it.

40:49

But that's really the case. It reminds me of a story about a guy who went to the doctor and he was there during the examination.

40:58

The doctor says, so what are you here for? And he said to the doctor, well, it's the weirdest thing. Every time

41:03

I push my finger into my arm here, it hurts really bad. And the doctor said, really?

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Yeah, show me. And he goes, ow. And the doctor says, all right, I know what you need to do.

41:14

And he said, what do I need to do? He says, stop putting your finger in your arm. Solve the problem real quick.

41:26

The easiest way to not struggle with Calvinism is just get rid of it. That's the easiest way to do it.

41:36

And I have friends that are Calvinists, and we're really close. But the funny thing is, is that I'm this blunt with them.

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I still remember, Varvel confirmed this. Years ago, I was invited to speak at Reformation Montana.

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J .D. Hall put that thing on and we had James White there and Phil Johnson.

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And Phil Johnson and I, I mean, we are actually close friends. And what was really funny is that at the end of the conference, we were all having lunch at Applebee's.

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And so I got, sitting right next to me, I got Phil Johnson sitting right across from me, it's like James White.

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And these guys always, they're trying to rid the Lutheran, right? So the topic of baptism got brought up.

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And I look at James, I said, you know, I'm glad you brought that up because I have a proposition for you. I said,

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I would like to debate you on the topic of baptism, but I would like to have like a slight change in the procedure.

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Because rather than one person taking the affirmative and the other taking the negative, I propose that we both take an affirmative position and we have to defend what we believe the

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Bible teaches regarding baptism. And I said, and tell you what, I'll even give you my opening argument. And so, and I said, and so right there on the spot,

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I said, here's how I'm going to open it up. My opening argument is going to be, and I laid out Acts chapter two, baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, receiving of the

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Holy Spirit. Romans six, that we're buried with Christ, we're raised with Christ. Colossians two, it's a circumcision of the heart performed by the hand of Christ.

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Titus three, that it's a washing of regeneration. And then I even throw in some Acts passages where it's washes away sins and stuff like that.

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And so that's my argument. That's going to be my affirmative case. I said, so what do you think? Can we do this debate or not? And he wouldn't make eye contact with me.

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And Phil Johnson started playing with the tortilla chips and it was really awkward.

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And there was this long, long silence. And James goes,

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I don't debate Lutherans. And that was the topic.

43:56

Okay. James White, the guy who is known as one of the top end

44:05

Christian apologists who engages in debate of, he debates Muslims. He debates, you know, he just recently debated

44:13

William Lane Craig. I mean, the guy gets out and he debates people. I even gave him my opening argument, which means he would have a tactical advantage.

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No, I don't debate Lutherans. It was so fun.

44:30

Okay. All right. All right. So I'm assuming this comes from Carlos.

44:38

All right. So Matthew 27, Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, yielded up his spirit.

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Behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook. The rocks were split. The tombs were open.

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Many of the bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised and coming out of the tombs. After his resurrection, they went into the holy city, appeared to many.

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That's yes, they did. That's right. And Michael Lacana, the

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Christian apologist denies that this really took place. He thought, he thinks that this is some kind of legend, but no, it's absolutely true.

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Then the centurion and those who were with it, keeping watch, saw the earthquake took place. They were filled with awe.

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They said, truly, this was the son of God. Yes, they did. Yep. All right. All right. Let's see here.

45:20

So during the time of the book of Daniel, Nehemiah, how were the sins forgiven since there were no sacrifices?

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Carmen, great question. All right. I see what we're doing today here. All right. So we're going to note something here.

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We're going to, we're going to do this with a biblical text and I need to go to the book of Hebrews and I might have to read a big swath of this.

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So we got Melchizedek in chapter seven. Perfection. Here we go. Listen to the, listen to what,

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I'll start in chapter seven of Hebrews and you can kind of see what's going on. The idea is, is that the book of Hebrews explicitly teaches that the

45:57

Mosaic covenant sacrifices, that they were types and shadows and that they were pointing to the once for all sacrifice of Christ.

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And so in Hebrews seven, starting at verse one, talking about Melchizedek, the king of righteousness, that's what

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Melchizedek means and king of Salem, you know, which would mean he's the king of peace or Shalom.

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Melchizedek, the king of Salem, the priest of God, most high, he met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him.

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And Abraham apportioned a 10th part of everything. He is the first by translation of his name, king of righteousness.

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And that's what Melchizedek means. Melchizedek is king, Zedek is righteousness. And then he's also king of Salem, Shalom, peace, that is king of peace.

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He's without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the

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Son of God, he continues a priest forever. So, Jesus is a priest, even though he's a member of the tribe of Judah, and he's not a

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Levitical priest. He's a priest in the order of Melchizedek, because Melchizedek from the book of Genesis actually is

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Jesus. That's kind of the point that he's making here. So, see how great this man was to whom

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Abraham, the patriarch, gave a 10th of the spoils. And those descendants of Levi who received the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people that is from their brothers, though these are also descended from Abraham.

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But this man who does not have his descent from them receives tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.

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It is beyond dispute that the inferior then is blessed by the superior. And in the one case, tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.

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One might even say that Levi himself who receives tithes paid tithes through Abraham, for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when

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Melchizedek met him. Now, if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood, and when we talk about the

47:53

Levitical priesthood, you got to think of all of those sacrifices. Every Sabbath you have the two lambs being sacrificed.

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Every day you have the evening and morning sacrifice at nine in the morning, three in the afternoon. And then you have all of the other sacrifices, atonement offerings, sin offerings, guilt offerings, offerings that are given for your cleansing and your healing and all this other kind of stuff.

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If perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people receive the law, what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek rather than the one named after the order of Aaron?

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For when there is a change in the priesthood, there's necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belong to another tribe from which no one has ever served, for it is evident that our

48:42

Lord was descended from Judah and in connection with that tribe, Moses said nothing about priests. So this becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, who's become a priest not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life, for it is witnessed of him, you are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.

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So first off, Christ is our high priest and he's a priest even though he's of the tribe of Judah, and then you're going to note where it goes.

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This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant, which is the new covenant. Former priests were many in number, they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he,

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Jesus, holds his priesthood permanently because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for him.

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All right, then it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

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He has no need like those high priests to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for the sins for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

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For the law points men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a son who has been made perfect forever.

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And then if I just kind of scroll through here to chapter nine, I think we get to the part where that actually explicitly says that these things never actually did anything.

50:15

Hang on a second here. Yeah, here we go. But when Christ appeared as high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent, not made with hands, that is not of this creation.

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And he's talking about the tabernacle. So, the tabernacle that Moses created, that God told him to make, that was a copy of the real thing.

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Jesus actually entered into the real thing. He, Christ, entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves, but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

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For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of heifer sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself without blemish, purify our consciences from dead works to serve the living

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God. Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant. And so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since the death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

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For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. A will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

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Therefore, not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the calves and goats with water, scarlet wool, hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, this is the blood of the covenant that God commanded you.

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In the same way, he sprinkled the blood with the tent and vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law, almost everything is purified with blood.

51:55

And watch this, without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

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Christ is not entered into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

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Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood that is not his own, for then he would have to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world.

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But as it is, he appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

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And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes the judgment, so Christ having been offered once to bear the sins of many will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

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So, since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come, and that's the point here. So, all of the sacrifices in the

52:51

Mosaic covenant, the tabernacle itself, the Ark of the Covenant itself, all of these things are types and shadows which point to the real realities, and the real realities find their terminus in Christ.

53:04

So, all of these sacrifices point to the one sacrifice of Christ. And so, you get the idea.

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So, in these sacrifices, as a reminder of sins every year, it is impossible, listen to what this text says, it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

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They never did. It's impossible for them. So, they point to it. And so, the idea then is as Christians, reading a passage like this, it kind of invites us to walk back through that tough portion of Scripture in Leviticus and the portions of Exodus, where it talks about the creation of the tabernacle and all of these details, and ask ourselves the question, how does this portion of the tabernacle or does this sacrifice point us to Christ?

53:52

And what's really interesting, this is a little off topic, but still on the topic of types and shadows, when we think about one of the major artifacts of the ancient world that's gone and disappeared,

54:04

God says no one's going to see it again anyway. It's the Ark of the Covenant. All right. So, you know, it's still the stuff of legends.

54:12

It's a major portion of any of the Masonic rites and the Masonic legends, you know, and, you know, it's a big part of Gnosticism and secret societies and things like this.

54:22

And of course, you know, the movie Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark. Okay. But when you look, when we consider the

54:29

Ark of the Covenant itself, the blood of the Day of Atonement and sacrifice was poured out on the mercy seat, which is the lid of the

54:40

Ark of the Covenant. All right. And even that lid itself is a type and shadow pointing to Christ.

54:46

Okay. And let me tell you, when I was reading the Church Fathers, I was stunned by how they connected the top of the lid to Jesus.

54:55

So, when you read some of the sermons of the ancient Church Fathers, on the top of the Ark of the

55:01

Covenant, you have two angels who are based, there's a raised portion of the lid, and there are two angels above that who are facing each other and their wings are touching.

55:12

All right. And so, and we're all familiar with this. In fact, Raiders of the

55:17

Lost Ark depicted it very well. So, the question then is, how then does that connect to Christ?

55:22

How is that a type and shadow of Christ? Answer, the ancient Church believed that the top of the

55:28

Ark of the Covenant was a type and shadow pointing to the two angels who stood over Christ's body while he was in the tomb.

55:39

And I think that's cool. Okay. Because in one of the accounts of Christ's resurrection, there's two angels inside the tomb, right?

55:52

And so, that being the case, the way the ancient Church took it is that they believe that that was a prophetic type and shadow of the two angels that would stand guard over the body of Christ while he was having a

56:06

Sabbath rest in the tomb. So, and I think, I just think that's cool. So, anyway, you get the idea.

56:15

All right. So, looking at time here, yeah, we've, we're up on an hour. So, with so many questions, so many questions.

56:23

All right. So, all I can say is keep asking questions. We'll have to come back to them, but you get the idea.

56:30

And you'll note that if you stay here long enough, we get to all the questions eventually anyway, because we had the catechism classes and stuff like that.

56:38

So, that's, you know, that's where we are going to jump off today. Yes, they are cherubim, by the way.

56:44

Those are the cherubim, not the seraphim. So, yes. Yes, ma 'am.

56:58

Uh -huh. Yeah, absolutely.

57:17

Yeah. Yeah. No, no, you can't hear. Yeah, that's correct. All right.

57:28

Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Y 'all can hear me, right?

57:34

Yeah. Okay. So, Jen, the answer is yes. Yes. There we go.

57:45

So, yeah, there is a time when Moses is assisted by angels, kind of similar to the way

57:50

Christ is. And you'll note that Moses is one of these characters who in many of his roles, he's a type in shadow of Christ.

57:58

All right. Because he's the guy who leads the people of God out of slavery into the promised land, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

58:05

But because, and this is the other part of it, which I think is fascinating, because Moses is the guy whom

58:10

God gave the law through. And Moses then, with that being the case,

58:16

Moses, his name becomes synonymous with the law. That it was appropriate that he not be the one who leads the children of Israel into the promised land.

58:26

Finally, the fellow who does it is a fellow by the name of Yeshua. Okay. Yeshua is the guy who ultimately brings the children of Israel into the promised land.

58:35

You work the types and shadows out of that, because what's Jesus's name? Well, in Nazareth, when mom was finished making dinner and she was calling for Yeshua to come in, that's what she would say.

58:44

She wouldn't say, Jesus, it's time to eat. She would say, Yeshua, Yeshua, time to eat. That's what she would say.

58:50

I'm just saying. So, all right. All right. Brothers and sisters, it is great to see you.

58:55

And I'm going to go take a look at whether or not it's time to start blowing snow or not.

59:02

So, but keep Ryan and Amy Seavers in your prayers.

59:08

It's no joke when two people are, you know, a couple are in the hospital with COVID, this is nothing to snort at.

59:16

So, keep them in your prayers. Peace to you, brothers and sisters. Then Lord willing, we will see you all next time. Peace.