SRR 99 John Piper and the Decline of Sola Fide at Final Judgment, Part 2

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I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. The anathema of God was for those who denied justification by faith alone.

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When that is at stake, we need to be on the battlefield, exposing the error and combating the error.

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We are unabashedly, unashamedly Clarkian. And so, the next few statements that I'm going to make,

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I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time. And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know.

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We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style. I would first say that to characterize what we do as bashing is itself bashing.

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It's not hate. It's history. It's not bashing. It's the Bible. Jesus said,

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Woe to you when men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.

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As opposed to, Blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness. It is on.

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We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle. Alright, ladies and gentlemen,

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I want to welcome you back to the podcast. My name is Tim Shaughnessy and you are listening to Semper Reframanda Radio.

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So, today, it's going to be me and Carlos again. And we are going to continue addressing the issues with John Piper.

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But, Carlos, I was listening to last week's episode and it's pretty clear to me that really this is so much bigger than just Piper.

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And I think that we need to talk about that a little bit more. And last week,

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I played Devil's Advocate. After listening to myself, I realized that I think

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I played Devil's Advocate a little bit too much with respect to the Michael Horton thing. And the reason that I played

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Devil's Advocate was because I knew that we were going to get those complaints.

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And people are going to have an issue with what we're saying. But I wholeheartedly agree with what you were saying about Michael Horton.

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I do think that it's a huge problem. I think that he needs to own up to it and he needs to stop things like that.

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And as you pointed out, it's not the first time that he's been called out for something like that. But after listening to what you read from the quote,

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I want you to just read it again. And then I just want to tell you what I think about it.

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Yeah, so Horton's endorsement was this. Okay, so stop right there.

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Okay, so stop right there. He makes the disagreements sound trivial, tertiary, or secondary in nature.

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And when I came away from this, I thought, even when one disagrees with some of the conclusions, well, our disagreement with Rome is a vast chasm to which no bridge can be made.

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Our disagreement with Rome centers on the gospel itself. And so to make such a remark as that just trivializes it.

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And then to say that the Pope is an important theologian of our day.

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Go ahead and read the rest of it and I'll try not to interrupt you. Yeah, but it's the difference between true and false religion,

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Christ and Antichrist. So, yeah, it's very, very much a compromise, ecumenical compromise.

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It says, even when one disagrees with some of his conclusions, Benedict's insights as well as his engagement with critical scholarship offer a wealth of reflection.

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In this remarkable book, Han has drawn out the central themes of Benedict's teaching in a highly readable summary, an eminently useful guide for introducing the thought of an important theologian of our time.

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So two things right there. He qualifies the book as remarkable. I just don't see any other way around that.

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That's high praise for the book. If I were to say, hey, here's a remarkable book,

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I'm going to give you the impression that this is a great book. Even though I might disagree with some of the stuff in it, but it's a really good book and you can really be edified and learn a lot from it.

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And then to say that the Pope is an eminent or is an important theologian of our day is,

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I mean, just a gross misrepresentation of what the Pope is, of what the papacy is and who the

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Pope is. The Pope is Antichrist. I would never say to somebody, I would say to somebody that, you know, even though I disagree with some of what

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John MacArthur believes, I think John MacArthur is one of the most important theologians of our day.

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That's what I'd say with respect to John MacArthur, even though, again, I disagree with some of the conclusions that he draws.

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But I would never say that about the Pope. Or Scott Hahn.

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Yeah, exactly. I was listening to our episode that I did with Steve Matthews and Timothy Kaufman, episode one of the

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Trinity Foundation radio. And Timothy Kaufman points out the problem with Scott Hahn, that he basically followed the logic that Piper is presenting us.

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He followed it out and it led him straight to Rome. And Timothy Kaufman mentioned Scott Hahn by name in that episode.

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And so I would encourage people to go back and listen to it. Scott Hahn, unfortunately, is not anybody that we would recommend.

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We would warn people away from him to avoid him because he has sided with Rome.

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He has become an apostate. And so I wanted to make it very clear from the outset of this episode that I completely agree with what you said.

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And the other thing, Carlos, that I want to back up here because I wanted to give you an opportunity to engage a little bit with the book.

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You actually read the book that Michael Horton recommended and Scott Hahn wrote.

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And so if you could just give us your thoughts on that. Yeah, I started reading over some of it.

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The reason this came up again, because the endorsement he gave a while ago,

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I don't remember the precise date, but 2009 actually, is when he defended his endorsement.

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But the reason this came up again is because, as you know, or as you might know, Logos Bible Software, Faithlife, they offer free books every month, a free e -book each month.

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And so they have a Roman Catholic subsidiary company called Verbum, or Werbum.

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And this company, it's a Roman Catholic version of Logos. And recently they offered

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Scott Hahn's book for free. So I got it. That's how I got a hold of it. And then I was looking at the endorsement page and there, like,

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Horton's was one of the first endorsements listed. And so that led us to this whole thing that we've come to.

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But the, like, we already covered the whole situation, but what really struck me reading this book is that it is,

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I don't know how you can be a Protestant and not be bothered by just the whole feel for the book in the first place.

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Because it's basically an act of idolatry. It's an act of blasphemous idolatry because this guy, former

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Presbyterian, is praising and celebrating a man as the

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Pope. And it is really, really at odds.

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It's just so idolatrous, for one thing. And, you know, to some of the conclusions, here are some of the conclusions that he comes to.

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I dug up some of the quotes that, some of the more, you know, anti -Protestant ones.

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So in one of the chapters he says, Because from these reflections it is clear that the Church's teaching authority, its magisterium, cannot be regarded as an extraneous or foreign element that constricts the freedom of the theologian.

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The authority of the Church over the Word is part of the essential historical structure of God's revelation in the

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Church. As we observed in the previous chapter, historically speaking, Scripture, Tradition, and the

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Church's apostolic teaching authority are inseparable facets of the same reality. Namely, the revelation of the

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Word to the Church. The authority of the Church as the, quote, primary, he's quoting

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Benedict now, The primary interpreter of the Word, end quote, is the auctoritas apostolica, the authority of the living

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Word communicated as viva vox, as the living voice of the apostolic preaching.

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The Church's preaching, its proclamation of the faith, is quite naturally the normative criterion of theology, because this proclamation, the gospel, the

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Church proclaims, is the very object of theological reflection. So there you see he's plainly stating that the

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Church has authority over the Bible. I mean, it's standard

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Roman Catholic theology. And to say that a conclusion that you would disagree with is a serious undermining of the entire premise of the book, which is an act of idolatry, because the guy praises, he's a

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Roman Catholic who praises the Pope. So it's ironic that instead of calling him, rather than calling, he's calling him an important theologian when his own confession calls him

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Antichrist. That's about as sharp of a contrast as you can get. So it's pretty shameful for him to do something like that.

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Right. You know, this just is so much bigger than Piper. And last time we didn't even touch on Piper.

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So we're going to do that now. But before we start, man, I really, man,

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I'm really struggling tonight because, man, I'm down.

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Because there is a guy on Facebook, this guy by the name of Chris, and I like this guy.

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I mean, he seems like a nice guy. Sent him a friend request. But, you know,

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I was talking to him tonight, and we're going to start with number one in addressing the fatal flaw.

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And this is what Chris writes. He says, When the final judgment is talked about, and the basis of the final verdict is given, works are clearly emphasized, including the works of believers.

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However, I don't believe any works are meritorious toward justification. Rather, they are going to be used as a judicial evidence of the reality of a person's justification or its absence.

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And when I say works, he put works in quotations, I mean any word, thought, or action.

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How do you explain the emphasis of works of believers in passages about the final judgment, such as those in Matthew 25,

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Romans 2, Revelation 1, 3, and chapter 22?

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So, we're going to touch on some of the language that was used here, because he's speaking in legal terms.

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And, man, it just bothers me. And I have such a heavy heart right now, because,

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I mean, he's saying two completely contradictory things. And I did address the judgment of works as it pertains to believers in my episode on the

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Trinity Foundation radio, as well as on the article that I published with Tim Coffman.

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There is a judgment of works for believers, but that is for the basis of rewards, not for the basis of surviving through the courtroom of Christ and the last judgment in order that I might get into heaven.

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So, on the one hand, he's saying the right thing, and then he's just completely presenting something that's straight from Piper, because this was in the context of talking about Piper.

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And it bothers me. And it's like, I don't even want to... Man, I want to reach out to this guy.

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I don't want to beat these people up. I don't want to just hit everybody over the head with a

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Bible being unloving and uncaring. I feel for these people.

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I feel horrible that people are being taken up by this.

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And I don't know, man. I don't know how to explain it. Going into this tonight, I'm sad by this.

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It's like, I don't even want to talk about this at church, because it hurts to talk about this. People don't agree with you, and it's a hard conversation to have.

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We've been accused of trying to make a name for ourselves. We've been accused of... We're just out to get people.

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That's not what this is about at all. It's almost like when we talked about Hank Hanegraaff, it's like, yeah,

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I mean, everybody's concerned about Hank Hanegraaff. But it's like, I'm also concerned about the people that are listening to Hank Hanegraaff when he affirms

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Roman Catholicism as a true church. So, I want to start with the fatal flaw number one.

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I want everybody to know that that's where my heart is. I mean, this is a gospel issue.

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Let's be super clear about that. This is a gospel issue. But, Carlos, in fatal flaw number one, it's titled,

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Justified by faith at first, saved by works at last. And some of the terminology that was used in this quote by this guy,

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Chris, was also, you point out the problem with Piper in the way that he uses these legal terms.

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So, let's walk that out. I'm going to give you the floor and let you take it away. Yeah, so,

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I'm going to restate the thesis so people can refresh their memory. We left off last time by stating the thesis of what the main issue is with Piper.

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Which is this. I'm going to quote the article. In his attempt to reconcile passages like James 2 .14,

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which is, What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

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And Hebrews 12 .14, which says, Pursue peace with all people and holiness, without which no one will see the

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Lord. Piper offsets the doctrine of justification by faith alone with a lopsided emphasis on evangelical obedience, claiming that believers are required to have good works at the last judgment for God to allow them into heaven.

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Piper's false teaching of final salvation is the product of both bad hermeneutics and a failure to harmonize scripture.

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It suffers from not one but at least six fatal flaws, all of them fatal, for the doctrine of justification is fundamental to Christianity and affects all other doctrines.

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To get justification wrong, to get salvation wrong, is to get Christianity wrong.

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So, as you read the first flaw, all of these flaws, basically each one of these flaws alone is enough to refute

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Piper's position and to show that it's utterly at odds with the Bible. They're not necessarily in a certain order, but the way

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I try to list them is by, essentially, the most obvious ones first.

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And these first three have, for the most part, already been, to some extent, been called out by other people who are concerned, who have the same concerns that we do.

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These three flaws are essentially some of the major areas that other folks that have already brought this to light and called

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Piper out on. So, the first flaw is, like you said, justified by faith at first, saved by works at last.

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And so, here I start with a quote from Piper to show that his errors are not new.

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And the only difference, if any, is that he's becoming more explicit in twisting

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Protestant doctrine to make it fit his neolegalist mold. So, going back as far as 1993, he states this.

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He says, Our deeds will be the public evidence brought forth in Christ's courtroom to demonstrate that our faith is real, and our deeds will be the public evidence brought forth to demonstrate the varying measures of our obedience of faith.

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Romans 12 .3, 1 Thessalonians 1 .3, 2 Thessalonians 1 .11. In other words, salvation is by faith and rewards are by faith, but the evidence of invisible faith in the judgment hall of Christ will be a transformed life.

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Our deeds are not the basis of our salvation, they are the evidence of our salvation. They are not foundation, they are demonstration.

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Which sounds very similar to the guy that you just read, the guy that you just quoted. So, the issue now is that Piper is very clearly using legal terminology and describing how works relate to final salvation.

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He's claiming that our deeds, quote, Our deeds are not the basis of our salvation, they are the evidence of our salvation.

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They are not foundation, they are demonstration. So, he's trying to get away with this by saying they are not the grounds or the foundation of our salvation, but they are evidence.

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The only problem is that this is forensic evidence in Christ's courtroom.

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In his own words, Christ's courtroom in the judgment hall of Christ. Forensic evidence.

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Which, as we will see, undermines the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers and every legal status a believer has in relation to God.

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We're not just talking about, this is part of the conflation that Piper has with how works relate to our salvation.

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What James is referring to is, we've already made mention of this, we've explained this several times before.

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Good works are an evidence to other people. How do I know that you're a believer?

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Show me your faith by your works. That's what James is talking about. God doesn't need those works to prove or to show that you're actually a believer.

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He doesn't need them. He gave them to you as gifts. They are not the basis, they are not even the evidence of our salvation at the last judgment.

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Right. And, you know, going back to what this guy said, let me just read the important part again so that people get it.

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He wrote, this guy Chris, he wrote, When the final judgment is talked about and the basis of the final verdict, so he's in court, is given, works are clearly emphasized, including the works of believers.

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So believers are on trial. They are going to be used as judicial evidence.

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And so they're the same legal terms. And people are going to be put on trial again.

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And this is so deceptive because, Carlos, when Piper is saying that these works are, like you said, they're not the grounds, they're the evidence of our justification.

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In other words, right. In other words, unless you have enough forensic evidence, when

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Christ judges you at the final judgment, you're not getting into heaven. Right. You're being put on trial again, a second time, in order to determine if you're going to heaven.

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Right. And that's why it's so important to point out that this is deceiving because people hear that,

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Oh, our works are not the grounds, they're the evidence. And yes, that's exactly right.

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But not at the last judgment, so that it can achieve something that Christ already achieved.

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And so this is why it's so important to point out that justification is a once for all legal, judicial, final verdict of God declaring the sinner righteous at the moment of his effectual calling.

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Both now and at the last judgment. So that's why this is so, man, my heart just breaks for people like this.

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Because my concern is, are you going to appeal to your good works to present as evidence?

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Like, here's what I did, Lord, on the final day. Are you going to hope in that?

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Or are you going to hope in the finished work of Christ on the cross? And this error, and I'm not being dramatic here, this error is lethal.

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And this is what infuriates me. This is what gets my blood boiling. And this is what, at the end of the day, man, it just breaks my heart that people are being swept away by this.

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So go ahead, go ahead, man, go ahead and continue. Yeah, so we're making very strong statements because this is a very serious problem that Piper has.

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And I state in the article, I'll state it again. This view undermines the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers and every legal status the believer has in relation to God.

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Every single status. Because it's now on the basis of your... See, they're trying, they say it's not the basis, it's not the foundation, it's not the ground.

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But unless you have... Christ is going to forensically analyze your good works at the final judgment to see if you have enough in order to get into heaven.

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This is the sharp contrast that Piper keeps making. We're already justified, but in order to get into heaven, you need to be forensically evaluated by God on the final judgment.

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Present your good works as forensic evidence because if you don't have those present, you're not getting in.

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And so it's a complete undermining of the justification that we have in the first place.

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That is what justification is. It is a forensic acquittal.

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The justification is a forensic legal acquittal and forgiveness and pardon of sins of the believer.

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And this completely undermines that. And again, more recently, he's been stressing that all believers will have to present their works on the final judgment, not just for heavenly rewards.

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So he does affirm that they're for heavenly rewards, but it's not just that. It's as a, quote, necessary confirmation that they are worthy of entering heaven.

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Otherwise, they won't get in. And this is a quote from, the first quote was from a sermon series that he did on the resurrection and the final judgment.

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It's called, What Happens When You Die? I'll Appear Before the Judgment Seat of Christ. This next quote is from the newer sermon or article.

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It was a sermon called, Faith Alone, How Not to Use a Reformed Slogan. And so here he says,

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Paul calls this effect or fruit or evidence of faith, the work of faith and the obedience of faith.

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These works of faith and this obedience of faith, these fruits of the Spirit that come by faith are necessary for our final salvation.

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No holiness, no heaven. So we should not speak of getting to heaven by faith alone.

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In the same way, we are justified by faith alone. Love, the fruit of faith, is necessary confirmation that we have faith and are alive.

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We won't enter heaven until we have it. There is a holiness without which we will not see the

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Lord. Essential to the Christian life and necessary for final salvation is the killing of sin and the pursuit of holiness.

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Mortification of sin, sanctification and holiness. But what makes that possible and pleasing to God?

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We put sin to death and we pursue holiness from a justified position where God is 100 % for us already by faith alone.

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So again, he's stressing this to such an extent that now he's saying we're not justified by faith alone.

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We don't get to heaven by faith alone in the same way that we're justified by faith alone. Because in order for us to get to heaven,

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God has to forensically evaluate the works that we have as evidence to see if we have enough evidence to get to heaven.

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So that is clearly putting him in the camp of those who hold to a final justification.

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That is exactly what final justification is. Just because you say it's not grounds or salvation or foundation or basis.

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If you're still saying that there's evidence that is necessary in order to be presented at the final judgment, in order for you to get in, that contributes to your justification at the final judgment.

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It's not settled with Christ alone. It's not settled by Christ alone. You still have to present it at the final judgment.

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Right. And you know what these people are doing is that they're committing the word concept fallacy.

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They're saying, oh, the concept's not there because he's not using that word. And the concept is there and he's avoiding the word,

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I think, because of the obvious problematic implications of those. A lot of the grounds, the basis, a lot of those terms are used in Roman Catholicism.

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And you use those words and they're going to be red flags. But the concept is still the same.

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And I've heard people say, Piper says final salvation, not final justification. And they try to draw this arbitrary distinction.

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But Piper actually uses the terms interchangeably to describe his own view, which essentially captures the same concept, as you just put, of final justification in which people are not completely, wholly, legally, forensically, judicially declared righteous now because we're still going to have to be put on trial.

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And so he's used the term final justification before. Tom Schreiner, in which he wrote the forward to that book, uses the terms final justification.

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And Piper uses the term final salvation. And I believe that he uses them synonymously to capture his view.

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So I do want to get to that a little bit later. But I want to take our time. This first point is a little bit long.

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So I really want to take our time and let's just go. Let's just keep chipping away at it. Yeah. So I continue in the article.

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Basically, Piper's answer to the question of getting to heaven is not faith alone. It is not the same answer to the question, how can a person be right with God?

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Faith for Piper is not enough. Why? Because believers also have to have good works, love, kill indwelling sin, and pursue holiness for God to allow them into heaven on the final judgment.

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And again, let me interject here. Let me point out. When we say that faith is not enough for Piper, people oftentimes try to point to James 2 and make a distinction between true and living faith and dead faith.

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Living faith, which manifests itself in good works, is not enough in Piper's view.

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So people who are saying, I think Piper's just saying that works will be present. That's not what

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Piper is saying. You're misrepresenting Piper when you say that. Piper is saying, because in Piper's view, the only faith that justifies a person is a true and living faith, which is made manifest in good works.

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So the good works are there. Now, what you're saying, Carlos, is faith, that faith is not enough.

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So we need to be super clear on this, because people keep citing

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James 2 as if that's the argument, and that's not the argument. Yeah, he's saying, quote, we won't enter heaven until we have it.

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All of those things that we just listed, that he himself listed. It's just so far removed from the doctrine of justification by faith alone, that it is far more in common in line with the federal visionists, the

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New Perspectiveists, the Roman Catholic Church. That is basically what they say.

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It may differ in degrees as to how explicit they are, but this is the same error.

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This is essentially the same error, just a little more subtle. Look at the word picture that he's painting.

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He's saying, God is going to put us on trial. We are going to face the judgment hall of Christ, and face

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Christ as judge. There is no escaping that God is forensically weighing our works as evidence to see if we have enough to get to heaven.

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That's justification, folks. In case you didn't get it, that's justification. That justification was already accomplished at the cross.

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And when you believe that justification is applied to you legally, forensically, that is the doctrine of Protestant justification.

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The eschatological justification or judgment is already solved and brought forward to the present day, the moment that you believe.

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There is no longer an evaluation period at the final judgment because Christ already satisfied it.

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That is what the imputation of Christ's righteousness is all about. And so before I get any more ahead of myself, we can continue on with the first flaw.

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So again, yeah, this is a Roman reversal of the Reformation because Protestants have only the same answer to both questions.

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And that is faith alone. It's faith alone, not faith plus works and works present at the last judgment.

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So I don't know, and I want you to carry on, but I don't know if you, I don't know if you quoted this verse, but it just really hits home what you're talking about right here.

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John 5, 24. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my words and believes him who sent me has eternal life.

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He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

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We do not go into judgment, but we pass from death to life. But Piper will have us go through a judgment in Christ's courtroom to be put on trial.

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So I believe that blatantly contradicts what Christ himself teaches.

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Yeah, that verse illustrates exactly the problems that I'm pointing out in the thesis of the article.

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Piper and these people who believe in a final salvation, final justification, they are very poorly failing to harmonize all of Scripture consistently and harmoniously.

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Because there's several passages in the Bible that fly in the face of what

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Piper is saying. And we're also going to deal with the passages that seem to support what Piper and these folks say.

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But you have to account for all of Scripture. And that verse you just quoted completely contradicts everything that he's saying.

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So even though he does correctly explain that we put sin to death and we pursue holiness from a justified position where God is 100 % for us already by faith alone.

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Piper is nevertheless betraying Sola Fide because he's conflating it with sanctification. Because he's stating that God requires good works or the sanctifying fruit of faith as necessary confirmation for believers to enter heaven at the last judgment.

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Again, quote, In final salvation at the last judgment, faith is confirmed by the sanctifying fruit it has borne.

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And we are saved through that fruit and that faith. As Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2 .13,

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God chose you as the first fruits to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. And this is not obscure.

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Piper is not being confusing. He's not being vague. He's not being unclear. This is as clear as clear can be.

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There is no misunderstanding him. This is plain. And it's plain wrong.

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It's just flat out wrong. Some people try to excuse

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Piper because he still affirms justification by faith alone. But again, if you're familiar with church history and heresies, the heretics constantly use biblical and orthodox terminology to affirm the very

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Christian doctrines that they themselves reject. And they redefine them. They subtly redefine and undermine them by twisting the scriptures and isageating their own views into the text.

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And this is what Piper does. This is exactly what Piper is doing. And John Robbins, he wrote an article back in 2002 warning about John Piper.

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It's nothing new. This is nothing new. And Robbins warns that, quote, Piper denies justification by faith alone while professing to accept biblical soteriology, which makes his work all the more dangerous.

36:29

The most effective attack on truth, the most subversive attack on the doctrine of the completeness and efficacy of the work of Christ for the salvation of his people is always couched in pious language and biblical phraseology.

36:41

And it's ironic because Piper's own words mark him guilty when he himself gives his readers an admonition when he's extracting an application, a lesson learned from Athanasius and how he had to deal with the

36:54

Arian heretics. Because they very subtly would undermine the doctrines.

36:59

They would accept what the Orthodox folks would say, but then they would undermine them by redefining them.

37:05

So they would accept them at face value, but then they would redefine them completely. And this is what Piper's doing with Protestant understandings of these doctrines.

37:14

That is exactly what he's doing. He's twisting their meaning with heterodox interpretations of the biblical passages in a way that betrays both the

37:23

Reformation and the Scriptures. And he says this, Piper says this, he says,

37:46

So there, you know, it sounds like a very pious, this reminds me a lot of New Covenant theology people, you know.

37:52

We're only, we are biblical first and we're only reformed if it follows what the Bible says. Well, yeah, that's what everybody would say.

37:58

Everybody would say that. Methodists would say that. Baptists would say that. They all say that. They all claim that.

38:04

So it doesn't, it means very little unless you state what you're saying and what you're saying harmonizes with Scripture.

38:11

It has to line up with Scripture. Well, it's like Pastor Hines has rightly pointed out that every heretic in the history of the church has taught their heresy in the name of being faithful to Scripture.

38:24

Exactly. That's basic. That is one of the most basic lessons of church history.

38:30

And he says this too. He says, And again, this is patently false.

38:56

He is not saying, he is not affirming justification by faith alone. We just explained how

39:02

God evaluating our works as evidences, even if it's not the grounds or the basis or the foundation, as long as it's something, evidences, it doesn't matter.

39:17

That is contributing to your justification at the final judgment. So, again, it's clear.

39:23

It's so clear that he is utterly opposed to the Protestant Reformation and to the

39:29

Protestant understanding of these doctrines. Right. And, you know, I also want to point out to people that we are not antinomians.

39:38

That we do believe that if a person is justified, that justification inevitably leads to sanctification and that there will be evidence of that person's saving faith.

39:51

We believe that it's a necessary and inevitable consequence of saving faith.

39:57

Okay. The difference is, is that those evidences are for people.

40:03

And that's why in James chapter 2, it says, what good is it, my brothers, if someone says, I have faith.

40:10

Actually, let me just read it because it's the best thing to do.

40:18

But those evidences are before people. They're not before God at the final judgment.

40:24

And that's why the context of what James is talking about, he says, starting in verse 14, what good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works, can that faith save him?

40:38

So what he's talking about is a profession of faith. How do we evaluate someone's profession of faith? Well, first, by what they teach and believe, we have to examine the substance of what they're saying in light of scripture and see if it lines up.

40:56

But then also, he's addressing the issue of hypocrisy. And so we're not antinomians.

41:02

We're not saying that a person will be completely devoid of faith.

41:11

With the free grace movement, we do believe that it's a necessary, inevitable consequence of saving faith.

41:20

But that evidence is for people to really see if you're a hypocrite or if you're genuinely a

41:28

Christian. Because that's all we have. We can't see inside of a person's heart. So I just wanted to make that clear because I know that that keeps coming up as well.

41:37

Are you saying that a person can go to heaven and not have any works? We're not antinomian.

41:44

But what we're saying is that you will not get into heaven because of your good works.

41:50

And so when you say that you don't get into heaven by faith alone, when you say that, you're saying that inevitably that faith alone is not the alone instrument by which you get into heaven.

42:05

Your inherent goodness, not the goodness of Christ imputed to you through faith, but it's you.

42:17

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just wanted to throw that out there because we keep getting charged with the people keep leveling the charge of antinomianism against us.

42:29

Yeah, we're going to deal with that a little later with how works play a role. We've already explained and we will explain in more detail that works, the role of works in the final judgment is that God is going to evaluate them to see which ones he's going to reward.

42:45

They are not the necessary evidence that we have to present in order for God to allow us into heaven.

42:52

That is contributing to your justification and it utterly undermines the total perfect satisfaction and imputed righteousness that Christ already has imputed to us on our behalf.

43:07

And so in the article, I continue, I say, Piper teaches contrary views.

43:14

He cannot affirm the Protestant position that believers are justified by faith alone, but at the last judgment, good works will be required to forensically demonstrate their worthiness to enter heaven.

43:25

Because this latter fatally undermines the former. It's a fatal flaw.

43:31

This is fatally flawed already. We're just on the first point and this is already bad enough as it is.

43:38

Piper is embracing Protestantism, but ultimately to redefine and reject it.

43:45

This quote is astounding and it's not new. It's not that new. This quote,

43:51

I think, is from the foreword to Tom Schreiner's book on justification by faith alone.

43:57

I think this was published in 2015. So, get a load of what he says here.

44:06

Listen very carefully. I quote Piper, the stunning Christian answer is, sola fide, faith alone.

44:13

But be sure you hear this carefully and precisely. He, Tom Schreiner, says, write with God by faith alone, not attain heaven by faith alone.

44:22

There are other conditions for attaining heaven, but no others for entering a right relationship to God.

44:31

In fact, one must already be in a right relationship with God by faith alone in order to meet the other conditions.

44:38

We are justified by faith alone, but not by faith that is alone. Faith that is alone is not faith in union with Christ.

44:45

Union with Christ makes his perfection and power ours through faith. And in union with Christ, faith is living and active with Christ's power.

44:54

Such faith always, quote, works by love and produces the, quote, obedience of faith. And that obedience, imperfect as it is till the day we die, is not the basis of our justification.

45:05

He's quoting Schreiner there. Not the, quote, basis of our justification, but a necessary evidence and fruit of justification.

45:11

In this sense, this is Piper, in this sense, love and obedience, inherent righteousness, is, quote, required of believers, but not for justification.

45:24

That is, required for heaven, not for entering a right standing with God. So what does this mean?

45:30

Hold on. Hold on. Let's back up here. He explicitly said an inherent righteousness is required.

45:41

An inherent righteousness. This flies in the face of Protestant orthodoxy, which teaches that it is the foreign righteousness of Christ alone, imputed to you through faith alone, that saves you and gets you into heaven.

46:01

And so Piper would have his readers appeal, let me back up here, die thinking that they are going to have to go into a courtroom, be put on trial, and they are going to have to appeal to an inherent righteousness that is of themselves.

46:22

An inherent righteousness, not the righteousness of Christ, but an inherent righteousness in order to enter heaven.

46:31

Folks, don't miss this. Do not miss this. This is a train wreck.

46:37

This is tragic, on epic proportions. That's heresy. And it just baffles me if Stephen Furtick said this, if Benny Hinn said this, if Joel Osteen said this, everybody would be all over it.

46:54

But we have a bit of a confirmation bias here. It's astounding.

47:01

This is Romanism 101. This is Romanism at its core. It is an utter travesty of the

47:08

Reformation. And again, Piper says there are other conditions for attaining heaven that believers must meet based on his unbiblical and anti -Protestant distinction between justification and final salvation, between justification and getting to heaven.

47:24

And so he even admits that it's imperfect. He says in obedience, imperfect as it is till the day we die.

47:33

God is accepting less than perfect obedience as evidence for you to get to heaven.

47:40

This is practically the same thing that Federal Visionists teach, that New Perspectivists teach, that Rome teaches.

47:50

It is squarely on their camp. And it is heresy. This is flat out heresy, folks.

47:57

And it doesn't matter if you want to nuance it or qualify it and say, well, it doesn't have to be perfect.

48:04

Earlier we said, how many works does it take? Well, it's not really that.

48:10

You just have to have some. If you add anything to the finished work of Christ, you are trusting in a false gospel.

48:18

Anything. So it doesn't matter if the works are small.

48:23

It doesn't matter. If you add anything to it, you have forfeited the gospel.

48:29

And as Paul says, Christ is of no advantage to you. And if you look at the contrast between the

48:34

Judaizers and Rome, the Judaizers just added one thing to the finished work of Christ.

48:41

Circumcision. But Rome has added so much more. And what does Paul say to them? That Christ is of no advantage to you.

48:46

In Galatians chapter 5, that you've been cut off, that you've fallen away from grace. That is the danger that people are in.

48:55

And I mean, again, man, that's why my heart is so heavy for these people.

49:00

Yeah, in the article, so I continue in the article. To assert that inherent righteousness is required for heaven is to side with Rome's view of analytic justification.

49:14

And is to reject the true gospel and the Protestant doctrine of synthetic justification, as we will explain further.

49:22

So, this, you know, Piper's apple of final salvation doesn't fall far from the tree of Roman Catholic dogma defined by the

49:31

Council of Trent. It sounds very similar to Trent. And the article, I quote a few of the canons.

49:38

This is from the session 6 of the Council of Trent.

49:44

Canon 9 states this. And this is

50:25

Canon 32. So, let's go back to what

50:58

Piper said. He says, He says, And he also says,

51:15

So, now note Rome again. In the same way, in other words, that Rome requires the said justified to have good works for the attainment of that eternal life.

51:39

Piper requires good works from those who are in the justified, in quote, a justified position where God is 100 % for us already as, quote, necessary for final salvation.

51:51

So, this is so far, it is so far across crossing the line to Rome.

52:00

It's just not, it's inescapable. And, you know, I have a few, as we were talking about this,

52:07

I dug up a few extra quotes. Yes, I wanted you to, I wanted you to do me a favor. Pull the quote from the

52:15

Catholic answers one, because I thought that one was perfect. Yeah, so, here,

52:21

Even though only God's grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please

52:26

Him and He promises to reward them with eternal life. Thus, good works are meritorious. When we first come to faith,

52:32

God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer Him. Then He gives us grace to obey His commandments and love.

52:38

And He rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to Him. We do not, quote, earn our salvation through good works.

52:45

But our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace -filled relationship with God, so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life.

52:56

Okay, so, was that Piper or was that Roman Catholicism? That was

53:02

Catholic answers. It is almost word for word what Piper said. I'm going to read the last part again. We do not, quote, earn our salvation through good works.

53:10

But our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace -filled relationship with God, so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life.

53:21

That is exactly what Piper says. We get put into a position where God is 100 % for us.

53:28

We don't earn our salvation, but it's through faith and love and obedience that we get eternal life or get into heaven.

53:37

I don't know how you can read that. The Roman Catholic website, what is that, the

53:44

Roman Catholic Answers? Catholic Answers. Is essentially saying the exact same thing as John Piper.

53:53

And so, I wanted to get to this, Carlos. I think that this is a good spot, because I had a conversation with Fred Butler.

54:01

I reached out to Fred Butler. I think he's affiliated with Bible Thumping Wingnut Network still.

54:09

And he works at GraceU with John MacArthur. And I asked him to see if he could talk to John MacArthur.

54:16

You know, because this is a big problem. This is a gospel issue. And in a conversation with him, later on, after I gave him some of our stuff, he said this.

54:26

And I found this remarkable. He says, Wow, Fred, that is disappointing.

54:49

First of all, Roman Catholicism is not teaching a strict

54:55

Judaizer view of justification. So, Roman Catholicism, they have the same problem.

55:04

But to say that it's not heretical in the Galatians 1 fashion, because it's not

55:10

Roman Catholicism. Go back and read your Bible, Fred. Because the problem was a

55:18

Judaizer problem, not a Roman Catholicism problem or Roman Catholic problem. So, I find that remarkable.

55:25

And Roman Catholics don't even teach a strict position of justification by works.

55:30

They teach a position of justification by faith and works. And I'm pretty sure that Fred knows that, that he understands that.

55:37

But I found that to be completely just, I mean, I don't even know what to say to that.

55:44

Because it is so clearly in line with Roman Catholicism that I just don't,

55:50

I don't see how you can't, how you can't grasp that. So, yeah,

55:56

I mean, I wish that Fred would take a second look. And I hope that he does.

56:03

But I just, I found that extremely remarkable. Yeah, here's another quote.

56:10

We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love Him and do His will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope with the grace of God to persevere to the end and to obtain the joy of heaven as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ.

56:27

That's the Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1821. It is right in line with what

56:33

Piper's teaching. Yep. Just because he doesn't believe in the sacraments of the

56:39

Catholic Church doesn't mean he's not, at its core, teaching the same thing. It's the same heresy. It's the same basic heresy.

56:45

Right. So, yeah, these, some of these weren't included in the article.

56:52

These are, and I got these from a really good little addendum from the historical theology class that Nathan Busenitz teaches because our church went through that.

57:01

And so he provides a really good little compilation of quotes comparing and contrasting

57:06

Rome with the Bible on salvation. So, and, so yeah, it's, it's astounding.

57:15

I mean, well, let me, let me go back because I'm, sorry, I'm not, I'm not done with Fred.

57:22

Because this is another thing that, that Fred said that I just, I'm like, dude, like, what is the deal?

57:31

He said, I don't like the application of his terminology. I wish he would be a bit more precise.

57:41

Okay. I don't know. I don't know what to do with this because it's, it's,

57:49

I wish you'd be a bit more precise. I want to go back and read the quotes from Piper because Piper said, because the whole point of what

58:00

Piper wrote in that article was, he says, you see what extraordinary care and precision is called for in order to be faithful to the scriptures.

58:15

And then in Tom Schreiner's book, he says, the stunning Christian answer is sola fide, faith alone.

58:21

But be sure you hear this carefully and precisely. So I'm just like shaking my head.

58:30

What are you talking about? You wish that he would be a bit more precise. That's the whole point of what

58:36

Piper is saying. He is saying that he is being precise. And the problem that you're having,

58:45

Fred, is that it's wrong. And it's at odds with scripture. So I don't know, like,

58:53

I don't even know what to do. I mean, it's like, how much more precision can you, do you want?

58:59

That was the whole point of what he wrote. So I don't mean to harp on Fred.

59:07

I'm sure he's a nice guy. I just wish that he would take a second look at this.

59:13

And I almost wish that it was Stephen Furtick or somebody like that, because then people would have no problem calling it for what it is.

59:22

Well, it's interesting because, I mean, the quotes we've read already up to this point are not ambiguous at all.

59:31

They are clear cut. They really are. And so let me, so I want to address a couple of things.

59:38

Were you wanting to continue with point number one or can I? I just, yeah, there's a few more things.

59:46

I wanted to point out the fact that I left some of these verses out, but it's just to show again how there's a severe lack of harmony of the scripture with Piper's view and these people and people who sympathize.

01:00:05

Just to throw out a few more quotes, a few more verses. So this is

01:00:12

Acts 16, 30 to 31. After he brought them out, he said, sirs, what must I do to be saved? They said, believe in the

01:00:19

Lord Jesus, Jesus, and you will be saved. You and your household. That's faith alone, folks.

01:00:26

Romans 4, 2 through 5. For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

01:00:32

For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was credit to him as righteousness, not to the one who works his works.

01:00:37

His wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But the one who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

01:00:51

And get this one, Romans 10, 9 through 10. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

01:01:00

For with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

01:01:09

Salvation. By faith. Alone. Alone. And there's no distinction between final salvation and salvation.

01:01:21

That's absurd. If you say you're not finally saved by faith alone, you're saying you're not saved by faith alone.

01:01:28

Honestly, that is the, how do

01:01:35

I put this? That is the falsest dichotomy of the century.

01:01:44

I mean, he clearly takes the award for the biggest false dichotomy that I've actually probably ever heard.

01:01:52

To make a false distinction between attaining heaven and justification, or between justification and final salvation.

01:01:59

It's just, it's so ridiculous, and it odds with the Bible. Let's go back to Ephesians 2, 8 through 10.

01:02:05

That's the one I read at the beginning of the article. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

01:02:15

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

01:02:22

So, and then here's Titus 3, 4 through 8. But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love for mankind appeared, he saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the

01:02:38

Holy Spirit, whom he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace, we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

01:02:49

This is a trustworthy statement, and concerning the things I want to speak to you confidently, so that those who have believed

01:02:54

God will be grateful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men. Note what he says, that being justified by his grace, we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

01:03:08

There is nothing else to wait for at the final judgment. There is no second judgment to see if you have enough good works.

01:03:16

You have already been justified, you have already been acquitted, and it's going to happen formally at the final judgment on the basis of Christ alone.

01:03:25

Christ alone. So, it's a failure, it's an utter failure to harmonize the scripture as a whole.

01:03:32

You have to account for everything, not just the verses that seem to agree with you. And that's the biggest, what's one of the biggest problems that Piper has.

01:03:39

So, continuing the fatal flaw, the first fatal flaw,

01:03:46

Piper's error is essentially Rome's, because it's a conflation of sanctification with justification. And there's some really good quotes by James Buchanan.

01:03:55

If you haven't read, everybody should read James Buchanan's book called The Doctrine of Justification, an outline of its history in the church, and of its exposition from the scripture.

01:04:05

It is an outstanding work, and it totally decimates Piper's position. It totally refutes it.

01:04:14

So, I have a few quotes to show that. Here's Buchanan.

01:04:22

So, he says, The fundamental error of the Church of Rome consisted in confounding justification with sanctification.

01:04:28

Popish writers confounded and virtually identified them, and thereby introduced confusion and obscurity into the whole scheme of divine truth.

01:04:36

For if justification were either altogether the same with sanctification, or if, not being entirely the same but in some respects distinguishable from it, it was founded and dependent on sanctification, so that if a sinner is only justified when and because and insofar as he is sanctified, then it would follow that justification, considered as an act of God, is the mere infusion, in the first instance, and the mere recognition, in the second, of a righteousness inherent in the sinner himself, and not an act of God's grace acquitting him of guilt, delivering him from condemnation, and receiving him into his favor and friendship.

01:05:14

It would not be a forensic or judicial proceeding terminating on man as its object and rectifying his relation to God, but instead the exertion of a spiritual energy of which man is a subject, in other words, the spiritual energy of good works, of the fruit of faith, like Piper says, and by which he is renewed in the spirit of his mind.

01:05:36

Considered, again, as the privilege of believers, it would not consist in the free forgiveness of sins and assured title to eternal life, but in the possession of an inward personal righteousness, which is always imperfect and often stained with sin, which can never, therefore, amount to a full justification in the present life.

01:05:56

And that's exactly what Piper affirmed. An imperfect obedience, an inherent righteousness to get to heaven.

01:06:03

It's amazing how he utterly contradicts it. So then, you know, yeah, we have, there's lots of good quotes that I provide.

01:06:13

So you need to make sure you check out the article. We're not going to have time to go through all of the quotes in depth, but just make sure you look at the article, see for yourself.

01:06:22

You know, this is not, we're not taking him out of context. We are quoting him in abundance to show you that this is exactly what he means to say.

01:06:29

And we're not just responding to a single article. That was something that Jesse from the

01:06:37

Reformed Brotherhood said when they reviewed Pastor Patrick Hines' episode, which we still need to get to.

01:06:44

But he said, you know, we should take Piper's ministry as a whole and not just be reactionary to one article.

01:06:55

And so he wasn't saying that about us. I don't even know if he was saying that about Pastor Hines, but we're not just responding to a single article.

01:07:08

We're responding, we're evaluating the whole of his ministry. We're showing, I mean, the first quote that you quoted from him was back from 1993.

01:07:17

And we're showing that he's got this wrong for so long, and it's in multiple places, and he said it repeatedly.

01:07:26

Yeah. So to finish off the fatal flaw number one, you already mentioned this verse.

01:07:37

Practically everything that Piper says from the quotes that we mentioned is completely opposed to what

01:07:44

Christ himself said, which is this. Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgment.

01:07:55

But has passed from death into life. John 5, 24. So there you have it.

01:08:02

I mean, it's as clear as it can be. This is only the first flaw, and it's already this bad.

01:08:08

The conclusion to the first one then is, Piper affirms the Protestant doctrine, but nuances the terms in a way that opposes historic

01:08:17

Protestantism, thereby resulting in a neolegalist retreat to Rome. This is

01:08:23

Romanism at its core. So this next... Yeah, that's to sum up the first flaw.

01:08:31

Well, let's do this. We've already gone for an hour. I do want to touch on some other points. So let me go ahead and touch on these other points.

01:08:38

We'll wrap up this episode. We really want to take our time here, folks. So maybe we can do fatal flaw number two and three next time.

01:08:47

That'll probably get us through an hour. We want these to be about an hour to an hour and a half episodes.

01:08:54

Because we really want to take our time here. This is going to be our final treatise on the subject.

01:09:00

I mean, hopefully. Something new may come up that we might have to address. But there's a couple of things that I want to deal with here,

01:09:08

Carlos. And you already addressed one of the points about the fact that heretics, which

01:09:17

Piper is a heretic. I know people hate that. That we actually say that.

01:09:26

But heretics throughout history use biblical terminology and redefine it.

01:09:32

And I really do think that this is a case of Romans 16, 18, which says,

01:09:39

For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. And by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

01:09:47

Now, I really believe that the smooth talk is the usage of biblical terminology only to redefine it and what it means.

01:10:01

And you quoted John Robbins, and I thought that was really good. And we do see that Piper redefines the doctrine of justification by faith alone because it no longer accomplishes what it should accomplish.

01:10:14

And when he presents it, he presents it in a way that seems correct because he uses the right terminology, he says it correctly until you realize that it's not enough to get you into heaven.

01:10:28

So, I want to talk about another problem that I see.

01:10:34

Because there's a second problem here. Piper introduces new language and concepts that are not biblical.

01:10:44

And if both the language and the concepts are not biblical, then we have a serious, serious problem here.

01:10:51

Now, I know that throughout church history, I don't want people to think that I'm being a complete biblicist because I know that throughout church history, the church has had to come up with new terms in order to capture key concepts.

01:11:04

Especially when heresies arose within the church. And the prime example of this is the doctrine of the

01:11:10

Trinity being captured by the word, the Trinity, which is not in the Bible. And of course, Jehovah's Witnesses will try to use this against us and say, well, the word

01:11:18

Trinity is not in the Bible, therefore, the concept of the Trinity is foreign to the Bible. And that's not the case, because the concept is there.

01:11:27

And we also address this, going back to New Covenant theology, we also address this with New Covenant theology, because a lot of the people that we ran into, and of course,

01:11:36

New Covenant theology is not monolithic, but a lot of the people that we ran into had this problem where they would ask, you know, where's the term

01:11:46

Covenant of Works in the Bible? I don't see it. And therefore, the concept of the Covenant of Works isn't in the

01:11:51

Bible. And I think that Dr. Richard Barsalos did a really good job, and it was very helpful to me when he pointed out that that's the word concept fallacy.

01:12:00

That just because the word isn't there, that the concept isn't there. But here's the problem.

01:12:06

Piper is introducing new terminology, as well as new concepts.

01:12:14

And I reached out to Phil Johnson, and in a recent episode on Wretched Radio with Todd Friel and Phil Johnson, they're both talking about the problem that they have with Piper's charismatic views.

01:12:32

So that's the context of this episode. I want to play that, because I reached out to Phil Johnson way before this.

01:12:40

I gave him our stuff. I asked him to look over. He said he would. But I want to play the end of that.

01:12:46

So this is in the context of reading an article from Desiring God about the charismatic gifts.

01:12:53

And before you get to that, I want to kind of jump off of what you said and add a little bit to what you said.

01:13:02

Extra -biblical terminology, not only is it okay, insofar as it agrees with the Bible.

01:13:07

Obviously, it has to agree with the Bible in order for it to be valid. It's necessary. It's actually necessary in order to fight off heresy.

01:13:15

This is a big problem that we had trying to explain to the New Covenant Theology folks, because they tend to insist on biblical terminology only.

01:13:24

We have to use extra -biblical terminology. And ironically, Piper affirms that very thing in his book about Athanasius.

01:13:33

It's just so ironic. But the way he buries his view in Protestant language and terms so deeply that it is a destructive and deceptive heresy, because it means the exact opposite of what the terms and the doctrines actually mean in the first place.

01:13:56

So you need to be very careful with this stuff. It's not trivial.

01:14:01

It is an undermining, a complete undermining of the gospel. Right. Let me go ahead and play this, and then

01:14:07

I want to finish making the point about unbiblical terminology and unbiblical concepts.

01:14:15

John Piper Ministry, Desiring God. Okay, so Desiring God. What do I do with this and Desiring God?

01:14:25

Now, what Todd Friel is, this is at the end of a 30 -minute episode. I don't want to play the whole episode.

01:14:31

What Todd Friel is asking is the article that they just reviewed about John Piper's charismatic gifts.

01:14:39

Okay, so they're going to call him out for that. And I want you to hear what Phil Johnson says about Piper and the gospel.

01:14:47

I mean, you have to read everything with discernment anyway, but the more,

01:14:56

I mean, between you and me, the more Desiring God drifts into that sort of charismatic realm of murky, you know, authority, the less

01:15:10

I'm inclined to read what they publish. I don't read their blog anymore just because of things like that.

01:15:16

It's too frustrating. All right, so... I wouldn't consider them apostates. I mean,

01:15:22

I think they, if you asked them for an account of the gospel, they would give it to you correctly and all that. But I think they're walking on a dangerous cliff that people who follow them will, many people who follow them will fall over that cliff, even if they don't.

01:15:39

All right, I want to be a good discerner. So I don't want to start drawing lines and divisions and separations.

01:15:45

So clearly this article, it's saying let's take the brakes off of this thing.

01:15:51

It really sounded a lot like Matt Chandler. Let's not be cautious anymore. Let's just risk it. It'll be messy, but it'll be incredible.

01:15:58

Quote from Matt. Is this at the point where I say, you know what? I'm not trusting

01:16:04

Desiring God. I'm counting them as a black sheep. I'm just going to keep eating the meat and spitting out the bones.

01:16:12

Well, you mixed a whole lot of metaphors there. That was the question. Which one is it? What do I do? So I read this article.

01:16:19

I wouldn't count them as apostate, like I said, based on that. But yes,

01:16:24

I think that that is dangerous, which means I wouldn't recommend their ministry to someone who lacks discernment or who's trying to learn.

01:16:35

I wouldn't mention them without some kind of warning to say you have to really be careful what they are writing and what they're publishing because there is extreme danger in this.

01:16:47

That's a bummer. Yeah, it is. It is because there are some things that they've done really better than anyone.

01:16:54

I love John Piper's emphasis on being passionate about the glory of God.

01:17:04

His defense of justification by faith against N .T.

01:17:10

Wright was, I thought, the most helpful thing that's been published on that subject ever. But didn't, if I recall this correctly, he said, nevertheless,

01:17:20

N .T. Wright is a brother. He may have said that, yeah. Yeah, which I found a little bit on the confusing side.

01:17:28

It was like, yeah, he's got some problems with justification, but it's not heretical. Yeah, see, and part of that,

01:17:35

I mean, we're getting into really complex stuff here, but Piper's mentor was

01:17:41

Daniel Fuller, who held a similar view about justification. I wouldn't consider him orthodox on the doctrine of justification by faith, which may explain why

01:17:52

I was so pleased with Piper's defense of the doctrine. I thought he sort of went against his own background and tendencies to sort of take on N .T.

01:18:03

Wright when there needed to be a voice of his stature dealing with N .T.

01:18:08

Wright on justification. I was glad he did it. I'm thankful for it. He's been a stalwart support to our position on the lordship issue against antinomianism.

01:18:22

So there are a lot of things I like about him. I like to hear him preach. I love the passion with which he preaches.

01:18:30

And normally when he's preaching, it's pretty good biblical stuff.

01:18:35

It's what he writes in between and the things he says and does in context like this that give me pause.

01:18:44

All right. So now this is not drawing a line. This is not separation. This is caution.

01:18:51

Right. Exactly. In fact, I've been resistant to the idea of drawing a line. There are a lot of people out there who think, well, if you don't anathematize

01:18:59

John Piper, then you're not being faithful because look at all this error. And I can kind of sympathize with that feeling that some of the error is potentially very dangerous.

01:19:12

But in my mind, until a man actually denies the gospel or teaches some truth that hits directly at one of the foundational principles of Christian faith,

01:19:25

I'm obliged to take his testimony. It doesn't mean you have to endorse the fellow.

01:19:32

Right. But it's really about it being an essential doctrine. Exactly. And I think there's a tendency for some people to think, well, you either endorse him or you anathematize him.

01:19:41

There's no in -between. In my mind, there's a huge in -between and a lot of people fit into it who

01:19:47

I wouldn't necessarily consign them to the eternal flames, but I wouldn't recommend their ministries either.

01:19:55

Well, and it's pretty clear to me. I really found that remarkable because I guess

01:20:02

Phil Johnson just hasn't been paying attention. I had actually reached out to Phil Johnson way before this, and I asked him to look over our stuff.

01:20:17

I asked him what he thought about that, about the final salvation issue. And this is what

01:20:24

Phil wrote to me at that time. He still hasn't gotten back to me. I'm a pygmy amongst giants, so he's not going to get back to me.

01:20:34

He's not going to go looking for me. I mean, I'm a nobody, but when

01:20:41

I did send him the stuff, here's what he said. He said, thanks, I'll listen.

01:20:46

And I actually gave him the articles, so I don't know if he actually read them.

01:20:53

But I mean, we can send this episode to him. But he said, thanks, I'll listen. And by the way, he was very kind and respectful to me.

01:21:03

I like Phil, which is why I reached out to him. I like Todd Friel, which is why,

01:21:09

I mean, I'd love it if Todd Friel was with us on this. But he says, thanks,

01:21:14

I'll listen. For the record, and this was public. This was not private. He says, for the record,

01:21:20

I don't like the language of quote, final justification, close quote. It's an unbiblical expression and concept.

01:21:27

According to Romans 5 .1 and 8 .1, justification is final, the moment regenerate hearts believe.

01:21:35

But I'm not convinced yet that Piper's issue isn't mostly semantic. I grant that it's maddening the way he seems to equivocate.

01:21:44

And assuming this is merely a matter of being unclear or even purposefully playful with language,

01:21:51

I wish he would face up to the confusion he has sowed and clear it up. And this was said in the context of a discussion on Piper.

01:21:58

So I'm quite sure that he is aware of the fact that Piper has used the term final justification.

01:22:05

And as I said before, Tom Schreiner in his book uses the terminology of final justification.

01:22:14

And Piper wrote the forward to the book. He has no issue with it. It still captures Piper's view and the concept is the same.

01:22:21

But what I found to be remarkable was this. And this is what

01:22:26

I wanted to comment on. He says it's an unbiblical expression and concept. And so this brings up the problem that I was saying, is that Piper has introduced language that is unbiblical, the final salvation, to capture an unbiblical concept.

01:22:44

And so if the language and the concept that you are preaching is unbiblical, and if it touches on a primary doctrine, whether that be the doctrine of Christ or the gospel itself, then that is a serious problem.

01:23:01

And if it pertains to the gospel itself, which it does, then you are preaching an unbiblical gospel.

01:23:10

And it's therefore a false gospel. And so my petition to Phil Johnson, Todd Friel, is you need to look a little bit closer.

01:23:23

You're sort of... I mean, I appreciated what they said. I wouldn't anathematize somebody over the differences of whether or not they are a cessationist or they're charismatic.

01:23:35

I wouldn't go that far and say, oh, he's a heretic because he's a charismatic.

01:23:41

No, I think that's irresponsible. And so I appreciated what they said. But Phil affirmed that he has the right gospel.

01:23:50

And he says, until I hear something that... I don't remember exactly how he said it, but we played the clip.

01:23:57

Until I hear him say something that's wrong about the gospel, I'm not going to draw a line in the sand is essentially what he said.

01:24:05

I don't know what the deal is. I don't know if these guys are just... And here's the thing,

01:24:11

I really want to be charitable to them because I know that the demands of their own ministry can just be heavy.

01:24:21

And so maybe they don't have enough time to go through all of this stuff like we do. Which, I mean, it has taken a long, long time to go through this stuff.

01:24:33

But the other issue that I wanted to touch on was the issue of clarity because he said that he wishes that Piper would be...

01:24:42

Piper's being unclear. And this keeps coming up, that Piper's just not being clear.

01:24:48

Well, I'm reading from John Robbins, and I just wanted to quote John Robbins on this. John Robbins writes, and here's the other thing,

01:24:56

I really hope that people don't hear the name John Robbins and then just count us out. You know, we know that John Robbins criticized

01:25:06

John MacArthur. Okay, let's get over that and let's just deal with this issue right here.

01:25:12

So I know that Phil Johnson is associated with Grace to You and John MacArthur. Look, I really appreciate

01:25:20

John MacArthur, okay? But John Robbins is writing this, not about John MacArthur, but I thought this was really helpful.

01:25:27

He says, God is concerned with the clarity of His revelation and demands that Christian teachers be clear in their thinking and teaching.

01:25:36

For example, in Deuteronomy 27, verses 2 -8, Moses and the elders gave a command to the people.

01:26:00

On the next page, he continues. He says, And he urged that it be taught clearly in the churches.

01:26:11

Now brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will

01:26:16

I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

01:26:22

Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds such as a flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes?

01:26:34

Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle?

01:26:40

So it is with you, unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying?

01:26:47

If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me.

01:26:56

That's 1 Corinthians 14, verses 6 -11. But he says,

01:27:01

Paul preached the gospel clearly, and he urged that it be taught clearly in the churches.

01:27:06

So here's my point. They are warning against Piper, because this is put out on a podcast.

01:27:15

They're saying that this is a serious problem. We're not drawing a line in the sand, but we want to be cautious. And Phil is saying,

01:27:22

I don't recommend them anymore because of this reason. I just don't trust them. I don't read his blog.

01:27:27

Well, here's the problem. There's a bigger issue here. There's a bigger issue, and it is a gospel issue.

01:27:33

It is a draw the line in the sand issue. This is my petition to Phil Johnson.

01:27:42

Take a closer look at what we're trying so hard to show people.

01:27:49

Because as I pointed out at the beginning of this episode, people are buying into this.

01:27:55

People are repeating this. People are thinking that this is orthodoxy, and it's not.

01:28:02

The point about not being clear is not a point of defense for Piper.

01:28:09

It's a point of rebuke against Piper, because if Piper is not being clear about the gospel, if Piper cannot clearly articulate the gospel, and people want to say, well,

01:28:20

I don't think he's being clear when he talks about this, and it's the gospel, then you should warn people away from him.

01:28:30

If he's not clear on the gospel. If you don't have the gospel, you don't have anything.

01:28:36

So I do think that there's a bigger issue, and they should warn people away from Piper because of this issue.

01:28:47

So don't anathematize him over the charismatic issue, but that's my petition to these gentlemen.

01:28:55

Yeah. There's something else going on here as well, because Phil Johnson, and I have a great deal of respect as well.

01:29:06

I've learned a great deal from Todd Friel, from Phil Johnson, from John MacArthur, and we take a serious stand or issue with lordship salvation.

01:29:18

So there is that. But aside from that, there's something else going on in the sense that these men are some of the most popular names in evangelicalism.

01:29:29

They're very well established ministers, big time ministries. So they constantly get asked and invited to these podcasts, to these interviews, to give a statement about controversies that creep up, like the

01:29:47

Piper issue, like before some of the things that Tim Keller was saying, and Phil Johnson unfortunately has characteristically kind of affirmed these men in a sort of a disappointingly shallow way.

01:30:06

Because if somebody keeps asking you about this stuff, you should probably take the time to look into it.

01:30:12

That would be my encouragement to them, because they should take a closer look at this.

01:30:19

If people are going to keep coming to you for answers, because ain't nobody coming to us. It's like we don't have the notoriety that they do.

01:30:27

People are running from us. Yeah, if anything. Some people are starting to see the issues.

01:30:38

Some of our work is getting recognized or acknowledged to a certain extent, but we're not going to be on Janet Medford and Todd, that's probably not going to happen.

01:30:52

But Phil Johnson constantly gets invited to speak on things like this. And he did the same thing with Keller.

01:31:01

And it's so ironic, because they talk about the issue of Piper affirming N .T. Wright as a brother and that he gets the gospel right.

01:31:08

But if you listen on YouTube, there's a YouTube video where John MacArthur calls out...

01:31:13

Well, I'm actually going to play that. Good. So he's going to call him out, right? And he's going to say that N .T.

01:31:20

Wright thinks that propitiation is a disgusting, despicable pagan notion that is utterly at odds with the

01:31:26

New Testament. That's a false gospel, folks, right there. But that's not the only problem. So he...

01:31:33

And that was a little bit weird, because Todd Friel was like, yeah, he confirmed him as a brother, but there's this stuff.

01:31:39

And then MacArthur... And Phil Johnson is MacArthur's right -hand man. So why aren't you...

01:31:45

There's a disconnect here, but not only that. So Piper... So with Tim Keller...

01:31:52

They asked him about Tim Keller as well, because he'll say, no, yeah, he's solid on the gospel. He's solid on the gospel, but maybe he's got issues here and there.

01:31:59

And he never takes the full step, or I guess does the work, enough research, to really come to that conclusion.

01:32:06

So he'll default on his faulty assumptions. He makes assumptions that are not well -founded about these men.

01:32:16

Because if you dig in a little deeper, you'll see that they're not sound. They are not orthodox.

01:32:23

And so Keller agrees with Wright on propitiation. He rejects it as well.

01:32:29

And it's in one of his most popular books. It's in The Reason for Faith. It's not hidden. And Phil Johnson again said that he's solid on the gospel.

01:32:37

He's made comments about Keller, saying that he's solid on the gospel, but he's got problems here and there about homosexuality, and other ambiguous stuff that he says, with the culture stuff and the contextualization.

01:32:47

But again, there's a disconnect there. And it's disappointing that these men are constantly getting asked for answers, and they're not giving well -researched answers.

01:32:58

And they should probably admit that. Because if they saw a little deeper, they would see that quite the contrary is the case with respect to men like these.

01:33:09

And let me also say this. You said that we don't agree with lordship salvation, and that might be a hiccup for some people, obviously.

01:33:18

We are Reformed. We're Reformed Baptists. We have some issues with the way that lordship salvation approaches some of these passages, like Matthew 7, 21 -23, or James 2.

01:33:40

And so, I don't want people to think that we're taking the side of the free gracers, because we think that the free gracers neglected the doctrine of regeneration, and fell into antinomianism.

01:33:52

And the lordship salvation guys emphasize trust, notitia, assensus, and fiducia, and trust as the third psychological element of faith.

01:34:04

And consequently, a lot of them say things often like, it's not enough to just believe.

01:34:10

And so, we find that very problematic. So, I just wanted to give a little quick side note on that.

01:34:16

And then I also wanted to... Because I am going to send this to Phil Johnson. And what

01:34:21

I want to tell Phil Johnson is, we're not heretic hunters. We're not out to get people.

01:34:30

It was very difficult for me to come to terms with the fact that Piper is preaching a false gospel.

01:34:36

And more than that, we've gone on record to defend John MacArthur, Steve Lawson, and Paul Washer from the false charge of heresy from antinomian individuals, who were basically saying that they were heretics.

01:34:54

And so, we've gone on record. It was in another episode, several episodes back, where we invited this guy on, and we asked him to explain his view.

01:35:06

And we said, we don't agree. We think that John MacArthur is a solid teacher.

01:35:12

We think that Steve Lawson is a solid teacher. Now, I'm going to pull a

01:35:17

Michael Horton here, but I'm going to do it the right way. We do disagree with some of their stuff, with some of their conclusions, but they're extremely important theologians.

01:35:30

So, that's how you do it. But here's what I want to do,

01:35:36

Carlos. I want to, first of all, just say thank you to you.

01:35:41

You're the one who wrote this article. That's the meat of this episode.

01:35:47

That's the meat of what we're getting at. So, thank you for your hard work. I'm sorry that you're just a pygmy in Christ's church.

01:35:57

You're just a layman and a pew warmer, because it is an outstanding work.

01:36:04

And before we go, I'm going to play the clip that Todd Friel referenced about John Piper.

01:36:13

And then I'm going to play the clip of John MacArthur. And I want to read the second part of what

01:36:21

Phil Johnson said to me, because I only read the first part. But I think that it's pretty important.

01:36:29

Phil Johnson writes, I lost my spot.

01:36:35

Let me just get my pictures. Phil Johnson writes,

01:36:41

At the moment I'm still taking a wait -and -see posture, hoping that the Piper who responded so brilliantly to N .T.

01:36:49

Wright emerges triumphant over the Piper who reveres Daniel Fuller.

01:36:54

In the clip that I'm going to play, this is, I guess, what Piper took away from his interaction with N .T.

01:37:05

Wright. And this is the Piper who has emerged, which is the Daniel Fuller version of Piper.

01:37:13

And I don't even know how to process what he's saying in light of Phil's comments about his response to N .T.

01:37:22

Wright was just so brilliant. Because you know who had a brilliant response to N .T. Wright? Yeah.

01:37:28

John MacArthur. Yeah. And so we're going to...

01:37:33

Short, sweet, and true. Don't tune us out, Phil. We're going to play John MacArthur who gets it right on N .T.

01:37:42

Wright. Who's N .T. wrong, as he puts it. What did you have to say, Carlos? No, just that I'm very grateful for this opportunity to...

01:37:51

This has been a blessing to be able to fellowship and partnership and for people to reach out to us.

01:37:59

We encourage you to reach out to us. Even if it's a disagreement or you agree, you disagree, we're grateful for the feedback.

01:38:10

And it helps us to also make sure that we are in line with Scripture.

01:38:16

And challenging us helps us. So we encourage that as well. And if you want to contact us, you can visit our new email, thorncrownministries .com.

01:38:27

I mean, I'm sorry, thorncrownministries .gmail .com. And we also, I forgot to mention this,

01:38:32

I sent out the first newsletter. So our very first newsletter was sent out. And we also have a phone number, a

01:38:41

Google Voice number that you can call if you want to leave a message. So that we're going to start hopefully playing your messages and responding to them on the podcast.

01:38:51

So I wanted to give out that number in addition to our email so people can be aware of it.

01:39:01

And I would encourage you to subscribe as well. You can just go to the website, thorncrownministries .com and subscribe.

01:39:07

And the articles are there that we're talking about. And so the phone number is 915 -302 -0195.

01:39:20

So give us a call. You can leave us a message. We'll play it. We can play it on the podcast, interact.

01:39:27

We're trying to keep the venues as open as possible for people to reach out to us. We're very grateful for folks' feedback.

01:39:37

And so I'm grateful for the opportunity. I'm really grateful to do this. I don't have a lot of time to do it.

01:39:43

So when we do have the time, I do appreciate getting the chance to do this because it forces me to confront these problems and to learn and to grow.

01:39:52

And I hope we can – our purpose for doing this is to benefit the church. It's to hopefully bless and edify the church.

01:40:00

And so that's why we hope that people with much larger platforms like Phil Johnson and John MacArthur and Todd Freel will hopefully take a look at this stuff and see that there's a lot worse when it comes to people like Piper, Keller, and the folks that we've been talking about and critiquing, criticizing in our ministry.

01:40:23

Right. And we're not cantankerous. We partner with a bunch of Presbyterians who are taking us to task right now.

01:40:38

So, you know, we love these guys. Check out Steve Matthews who, as you said, drank the

01:40:44

Presbyterian Kool -Aid. We'll try to get him back. Timothy Kaufman. Look, Timothy Kaufman, check out his eschatology.

01:40:53

Check out his stuff on Roman Catholicism. It is simply outstanding.

01:41:01

And I can't promote his stuff enough. Check out the Protestant Witness.

01:41:08

Pastor Hines is a formidable force to be reckoned with, and we are just so grateful for him.

01:41:17

So, you know, check out these podcasts. And, yes, I'm saying this knowing that he came out with an episode in which he reviewed what we said, or really what you said,

01:41:29

Carlos. I'm glad he did. No, I'm glad he did because it's going to— Right, right.

01:41:35

But that disagreement doesn't bother me. This other stuff.

01:41:41

This other stuff makes my blood boil. And, I mean, my heart just breaks for these individuals that are being taken up by this.

01:41:51

And I've said this before, Carlos. We live in a predominant—in a society that is mostly

01:41:57

Roman Catholicism. And so this hits home for us. This hits home hard for us.

01:42:05

And so here's what we're going to do. Don't tune this out. We're going to play the

01:42:12

John Piper clip that was alluded to in the Wretched Radio episode with Todd Frill and Phil Johnson.

01:42:19

And then immediately after that, we're going to play John MacArthur's brilliant response to N .T.

01:42:26

Wright, which I'm just baffled by Piper. So stay away from Piper.

01:42:33

And with that, we'll close this out. God bless. I don't think

01:42:38

N .T. Wright preaches a false gospel either. I think N .T. Wright preaches a very confusing gospel.

01:42:45

The burden of that book is to say, tell us more clearly what you mean if you think all of this in different categories really coheres with historic

01:42:54

Reformed theology. I wonder. I wonder if it does. I doubt, but I wanted to be so careful.

01:43:02

I sent the manuscript to him. He wrote an 11 ,000 word response. That was a third the length of my book.

01:43:10

And he wrote that much response. It helped me a lot to catch on to some nuances. So this isn't about him.

01:43:16

So I won't talk about him anymore. And even in evangelicalism, there is what is now being called the new perspective on Paul.

01:43:27

The primary influence of that is coming from a man named N .T. Wright, who is a British theologian.

01:43:32

He's written hundreds of pages, hundreds of pages on the gospel, including a very thick book on the resurrection of Christ.

01:43:43

I have read books for years, as you would expect and you would know, and I have read his writings, and they are a mass of confusing ambiguity, contradiction, and obfuscation.

01:43:57

Academic sleight of hand. I cannot tell you what he believes after reading all of that, but I can tell you exactly what he does not believe.

01:44:10

The only time he gets explicit is to make sure we know what he does not believe.

01:44:17

Let me quote a new book by him, N .T. Wright, The Day the

01:44:23

Revolution Began. Here is a quote. We have paganized our understanding of salvation, substituting the idea of God killing

01:44:34

Jesus to satisfy His wrath for the genuinely biblical notion we are about to explore.

01:44:42

So he calls Jesus becoming the substitute that God killed to satisfy

01:44:52

His wrath for us, paganism. Further he says,

01:45:14

So he rejects substitutionary atonement.

01:45:21

He rejects Jesus as the sacrifice that God chose to die for our sins.

01:45:28

He is very clear on what he rejects. He rejects the idea that our sins are imputed to Christ.

01:45:34

He rejects the idea that His righteousness is imputed to us. This is not the gospel, he says, this is paganism.

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To worship God as one who justifies by imputation, he says, is nonsense.

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I quote, If we use the language of the law court, it makes no sense whatsoever to say that the judge imputes, imparts, bequeaths, conveys, or otherwise transfers his righteousness to either the plaintiff or the defendant.

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Righteousness is not an object, a substance, or a gas which can be passed across the courtroom.

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This gives the impression of a legal transaction, a cold piece of business, almost a trick of thought performed by a

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God who is logical and correct, but hardly one we want to worship.

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He goes on to say, No one will be justified until he reaches heaven.

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Further he says, I must stress again that the doctrine of justification by faith is not what

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Paul means by the gospel. The gospel is not an account of how people get saved.

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Really. 1 Corinthians 15, 1 and 2, Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel by which you are saved.

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N .T. Wright is N .T. wrong. And all who accept his high -sounding words raised up against the true knowledge of God are still in the state of Luther, but without the fear.

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And if you're without the fear, you're going to hell happily. What amazes me is that people can do this and have no fear, and propagate it.

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And many, many young men, evangelical young men in seminary and training are influenced by Wright to believe the wrong thing.

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To be propagating a false gospel and denying the true gospel and have absolutely no fear and no angst and no guilt and no dread and no terror and no torture is to be void of the work of the

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Holy Spirit who convicts of sin and righteousness and judgment. The good news about Martin Luther was the

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Spirit was at work in his soul. But it was the knowledge of the revelation of God as a righteous judge and the wrath of God from Scripture that was activated in his soul to cause him to fear until he found the truth.

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What doesn't exist today in the church is that fear. Where are the terrified people?

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Where are the terrorized sinners? Where is the angst? Where is the dread?

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To propagate a false gospel and feel nothing but pride is to be in the most dangerous place possible.

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To have no interest in the true doctrine of justification but to be a happy heretic and an ambiguous one at that is to be in a place of the most grave spiritual danger and to make yourself an equally grave danger to those who follow your influence.