October 8, 2015 Show with Dr. Nelson Kloosterman, Pastor Bill Shisko, and Pastor Brian Lee

Scripture and the Iron Sharpens Iron Introduction

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this eighth day of October 2015 and we've got a very exciting and controversial program today.

We're going to be discussing the two kingdoms controversy and we're going to have a view from both sides. This is in order to promote the Semper Reformata 2015 conference at Preakness Valley United Reform Church in Wayne, New Jersey and we'll be giving you more details on how you can attend that conference during this broadcast, but we have three guests to discuss this program today or to discuss this topic I should say.

We have Dr. Nelson Klosterman who is no stranger to many of our listeners especially if they happen to be theologically reformed. Dr. Nelson Klosterman was formerly on the faculty of the Mid-America Reform Seminary until his retirement there and today he is currently the director of World View Resources International and he is going to be starting off the program with an hour-long overview of the controversy.

Later on in our second hour we're going to have Pastor Bill Shishko, no stranger to the Iron Sharpens Iron audience either. Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square is starting off the second hour for the first half of that hour to oppose Two-Kingdom Theology and then the last half hour of the program we will have for the very first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor Brian Lee of Christ Reformed Church in Washington DC.

He is affirming Two-Kingdom Theology and Christ Reformed Church in Washington DC is a congregation within the United Reformed Church of North America and I am looking forward to this discussion with all of these men and first of all let me welcome you back for the first time in quite a while my friend Dr. Nelson D. Klosterman.

Yes good to have you back brother and it was so wonderful to see you back about was it two years ago when you were in West Savile at the West Savile Reformed Bible Church for a conference? Yeah. Yeah it was so great to see you there and I'm glad that you are back in the saddle on the Iron Sharpens Iron program.

Tell our listeners something about Worldview.

Resources International. It began about five years ago, a career change to apply a number of.

And the website for that organization is worldviewresourcesinternational .com worldviewresourcesinternational .com in case you want to write that down and look it up later. Well it's great to have you back on the program and you are yourself a member of the United Reformed Church of North America are you not?

No I'm not. Oh okay for some reason I thought.

You were. Church and in 2011. Oh well there are. You can hear. If you listen very carefully you can.

Hear the sound of Dutch voices crying all over the world. Yeah. Well it's good to have you on the program. Now first of all please start off with a definition of this two kingdom theology. You know when I first started investigating evangelicalism as a young catholic man, a nominal catholic man, and I discovered the evangelical faith I figured well we have it all figured out.

I'm so glad that we are that I am here in this wonderful group of folks called evangelicals. And then I discovered this thing called reform theology and I by God's mercy and grace became a Reformed Christian and I said well thanks be to God we're.

I am in the Reformed camp of Christians and I'm glad we have it all figured out. And then I became a Reformed Baptist and thought we had it all figured out and then I realized man everybody's got disagreements no matter where you go and this is one that is a subject of hot debate amongst Reformed Christians.

So tell us about this two kingdom theology. To Martin Luther. You will not have read up the term to the term. Think. Let me explain. There are two realms or kingdoms in the world. There's the world and each is governed by different.

The world is governed by where reformers mouth distinction. Distinction in the scripture but theologically and of ideas. So that's the first thing. Two realms or kingdom because the world is governed by or be applied to all of life.

Third christian only exclusively. Merely a distinction. We need to underscore that we all agree on the existence of natural law. We all agree on some of this. Not all of it is beyond the church. Problem is anybody who wants to bring public life.

So uh. In other words the the the those who are uh.

Supporting the new version of a two kingdom theology would be far less uh to be known for involvement in politics and things like that. And uh does this controversy have any resemblance to the lordship salvation controversy that erupted uh.

Well at least it was um magnified in its uh awareness public awareness in the 1980s when john macarthur wrote the gospel according to jesus. Uh is there any similarity between that and this controversy.

Well i think.

There is i think there are points of contact i think i know enough about it to be able to identify these points of contact like they do not do obedience to communal shape. Question lordship. Right. And of course uh john macarthur's church though.

What confuses the issue when you.

Compare the two. Grace community church is well known for not desiring the church uh to be involved in politics. They they applaud individual members of churches and christians.

But not the church to be involved. Well that's that's the case also with two kingdom advocates. One of the advocates and in that book in one kings represents enough and therefore they uh the reason.

I said that it led to some of the confusion when comparing the two. Is that although dr macarthur would be on the side of avoiding church participation in politics he was heavy on the side in favor of the lordship of christ.

That's what i meant by there being a a little bit of a confusion there when we compare the two. Yeah. But uh is this primarily this two kingdom controversy. Is it primarily. Uh a a controversy amongst pato baptist denominations and christians.

I mean first of all i know that reform baptists we have no controversies or divisions so i'm happy i'm happy for you that i say with a big tongue and cheek there.

But uh is this primarily a pato baptist argument. Well i don't know that it's paid it is micro.

Reformed micro presbyterian. Yes i didn't mean that it was related to the uh ordinance of baptism. I meant that. Okay i meant as far as those who are involved in the controversy like for instance do.

You know uh new king new two kingdom theology advocates that are baptists. Um okay. So uh you say.

That the two kingdom concept of theology is traced all the way back to the reformation. Uh who would be those who you would highlight as uh bringing about this new understanding of it that is involved in this debate that we're having today which is not actually a formal debate because the two uh opposite sides or the those who represent the opposite sides during our second hour aren't actually interacting with each other.

But uh the the as far as the uh presentations are concerned they will be uh in opposition to one another. Uh what uh.

Who who are the uh the fathers of this movement if you will. Well um i can point our listeners the writings and those books because he's referring there to westman of not just not just two kingdoms but it involves an entire distinction now.

But the other book the names associate a number of book in print the another another writer in print michael horton before the thing was uh so criticism of this and perhaps we'll have uh dr horton on one day to.

Uh respond in his own words he has been a guest on here and obviously in many ways has been a a wonderful contribution to the theological discussion on many things uh. But uh the the issue that you just mentioned uh just to make things a little clearer here the and i'm not saying that i'm in favor of uh viewing same-sex unions uh marriages or whatever you want to call them in a neutral way i'm vehemently opposed to them.

But was it that uh the two kingdom the new two kingdom view that would support that kind of thing. Is this just saying that they support it as something that can legally occur in a free society or or are they loosening the fact that.

Is a damning behavior. Uh. A a wicked and damning behavior. Well the latter emphasis in my reading. Let me clarify something. Yes. And he was uh for a number of reasons. His wife her name is misty irons and the bible.

They're hermeneutic. They're hermeneutic. A fear mongerer. So you're saying.

This is different from uh for an example there are conservative christian libertarians who believe that homosexuality is straight from the pit of hell to use the most extreme label for it and yet they would say that the government has no business in people's marriages anyway.

So would it be similar to that or are they actually just trying to have it reclarified. Are they actually softening the concept that this is a damnable and unnatural unnatural and abominable.

Behavior now. You've raised a very good question. Now listen carefully to my answer. Would deny that here's here. I see however the conclusion. Some of them are the scent. Yes homosexuality is sinful and abomination.

Is that organized christian politician. And when i i am not allowed. Wow.

Okay. Wow uh now uh like many things like as as we are discussing this uh all of these participants that we're addressing are calvinists and there are many different kinds of calvinists are there.

Many different kinds of new two kingdom proponents. Well yes there are. Because you have those who again stand now. Uh could a lot of this be a reaction to the politicized gospel that has.

Come about you and i have seen in our lifetime the ecumenical movement which was at one time the sole property of liberalism. Now we see ecumenicalism being rampant in conservative churches who are viewing their own social gospel issues as being just as important sometimes and sometimes even more important than the gospel of jesus christ.

In other words there are christians who have christianized roman catholics and mormons and who view all sorts of people who are not truly heirs of the reformation. If you will they will view them as brothers and sisters because they are pro-life and they are against same-sex marriage.

Could this two kingdom or this new version.

Of two kingdom theology. Be a reaction to that. Yes absolutely i believe it is. Well let me just have agreement now. Could we pick up on that when we come up back from the break. Because we have to.

Go to a station break. Yeah you bet sure. Okay. Great. We're going to go to a station break right now and don't go away we'll be right back with dr nelson closterman and his overview of the two kingdom theology controversy.

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See the long island galleries display ad at iron sharpens. Iron radio dot com. Welcome back. If you've just tuned us in we are discussing the new two kingdom theology controversy and right now we have in our program to give an overview and he will continue to do so.

For the remaining half hour is dr nelson closterman and after dr closterman is through giving an overview we're going to be welcomed. We're going to be welcoming pastor bill shishko of the orthodox presbyterian church franklin square new york who is in opposition to the new two kingdom theology view followed by brian lee for the last half hour who is the pastor of christ reform church in washington dc.

He is going to be affirming the new two kingdom theology view. If you have any questions of your own that you'd like to join us on the air with our number or should i say our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com. And if you could pick up right where you're left off pastor closterman. Dr closterman. I'm sorry.

We were talking about and let me let me by the way your listeners need to understand that this hijacking okay number two is also in the face of ecumenism. Ecumenism in the trench of abortion in opposition to other current finding them right alongside them in the trenches.

So when this occurs.

I don't know if you were uh in favor of that or not but there is a i would assume in your mind a difference between the type of co-belligerence that occurs when a evangelical votes for a roman catholic or a mormon uh and so on or a jew or somebody else but there's a difference between between that and having an ecumenical relationship with them and considering them brothers and having worship services together having people who deny christ leading in prayer and that kind of a thing.

I agree with you about that and i think the key word in your comments a theory or a we're going to have to make some important distinctions and these distinctions for queen i think of six. About a year or two years ago people can catch my blog number five but required in order to infant baptism.

I would not believe that that is required. Okay. So that's not a core doctrine. No it's christ. Is that a core. Yes all right. How about for a five-point calvinist. Oh all four-point calvinist.

Definitely locked out of heaven as far as i'm. Just kidding just kidding just kidding. All right.

Well even even this discussion about two kingdoms i think i put this discussion clearly. I do not dislocate my brothers with whom i disagree on this. I think they are profoundly about the law and between each of those categories.

Now let's get back to cobalt. I can call despite whatever does not mean therefore that we're going to sit together as christians in a christian organization in a christian organization now. That's interesting because this would obviously bring up a whole other.

Can of worms for another program. But you would call a roman catholic who believes or affirms the council of trent's anathemas against justification by faith alone you would confirm about catholic such as that as a brother in christ.

That's not what i said. Okay.

What i said was who acknowledges that they alone. Oh okay through faith alone in christ alone.

That they would be catholic in name only or roman catholic in name only then if they.

If they had that faith and they would be either on and what. Yeah. In essence my answer is yes they.

Would be unenlightened uninformed etc. Right. Uh i know that dietrich bonhoeffer was a neo-orthodox person and he had some you know very strange theological views but can someone compare rightly the confessing movement that he was a part of in nazi germany where he was opposing uh what was happening around them in germany the persecution of the jews and other uh non-aryan peoples and those who didn't support hitler's cause.

Uh could that be rightly uh compared to what is viewed as the difference between involvement and non-involvement in the.

Public square with this controversy absolutely is a modest and with respect to christian responses to dietrich bonhoeffer illustration that in 1930s while being a church member they viewed warms my heart because in contrary contrary to bonhoeffer it's not ours and they had their complete right down the middle.

I just want because of this i want to make sure that i.

Announce this conference before time runs out and i forget about it. Uh this conference that we are discussing which is addressing the two kingdoms theology controversy that's the semper reformata 2015 conference at preakness valley united reform church in wayne new jersey that's going to be held october 13th from 1 p .m to 9 p .m uh eight hours.

I'm sure there's meals involved at least i'm hoping there is. And for more information on this conference go to the preakness valley united reform church website and that is preaknessvalleyurc .org preakness valley which is spelled p as in peter r e a k n as in nancy e s as in sam s as in sam valley urc .org and uh we'll hopefully repeat that again before the end of the broadcast today.

And uh so you know a lot of people i know for a fact because i hear from these people uh that are they're typically not reformed christians. They're typically uh mainstream evangelicals they might even be moderate roman catholics who laugh at me sometimes when they hear about a show that i uh conducted and they'll say are you kidding me.

You're actually talking about such minutiae and such. Uh you know you're counting the uh the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin while there are babies being murdered by the millions in abortion mills and all these other horrific things.

The muslim terrorism is happening around the world. And and you're talking about these kinds of things. How do you respond to that kind of a comment.

Well whether or not for me the question really boils down to one of the authority of jesus christ the authority of the bible the gospel and if all of these authorities authorities are valid and operative only only worth talking about because the ultimate that the ultimate there's something very very important more continuity in the new creation purged of sin going to be more continuity between part of which incidentally chris is embodied and embedded and reward our works purely out of great when we get to heaven this life not to condemn me but rather to reward me out of and its culture and its structures and its products are going to be burned up there's nothing temporal now.

How do you react to uh a theonomist who is listening. And they will say.

Dr nelson closerman is a theonomist and he doesn't even realize it. How do you.

How do you know. How do you how do you respond to that. That's an excellent question chris. Before i got in tank when i taught at seminary i am not a theodoric thompson. My difference of principles guidance of was that the law of god is abiding in more numerous where finally we came down on the same side.

And i would say and i did say to him why didn't you say so. I think people who many theonomists do not understand even what greg bonson wrote in some of his later book label. I think there's a middle way.

Two kingdoms. Two kingdoms proponents are very fond and married. And it's my judgment that this continuing including incidentally neocalvinists they use that brush just ludicrous. In that i think there's a third way.

And the third way inside the institutional communal witness there's a hermeneutical. The point is that we use the principles of components. Uh you have about five minutes to really unburden your heart and really finalize your uh summary of this discussion today should not be high instance is worse than a disease.

Um two kingdoms theology incurring cultural conflicts. And it's less than biblical john calvin sermons on deuteronomy names now being made it even includes its family party is not the bible when i was a reformed church.

And i am very concerned when i hear people claim is number one who does not share the principle. And that's really what gets them. For younger people it turns them off to this kind of debate with that kind of weaponry i'm willing to discuss and engage and sharply.

And implications of this behind us we cannot within the micro reformed world. If you read john frame of abuse among other things being done. Uh when you when.

You were speaking about calvin spinning in his grave. Are the proponents of the two kingdom. Theology. The proponents i have to emphasize. Are they claiming that calvin would be in their camp if if he were alive.

Oh yes now doesn't. That seems to be quite ironic because you and i would even think that he went too uh far the other way i mean he agreed to the execution of michael cervezas.

Didn't he. Well really i'm not quite with regard to that story. Yeah there are embarrassed with regard to their their own views and practice and implementation of two kingdoms. The gospel has calvin's pulpit.

God dislikes this. That's where we are good at. But the second word we have to.

Response to these evils. Yes when i brought up calvin and cervezas i was speaking of that as a polar opposite to what the new two two kingdom theory would be. That's why i right i understand. Well i want to thank you so much for being on the program today especially since it was such late notice.

I look forward to having you back. And uh could you repeat your website once again.

For our listeners world view all one word great. We're all definitely going to be having you back.

God willing of course in the near future. Uh dr closterman i always love having you on. You're always so well informed and uh you there's never a dull moment when you're on the program and i thoroughly enjoy our discussions and i look forward to having you back soon.

Well i'm glad that you didn't fall asleep and we're gonna be right back after these messages with bill shishkoff the orthodox presbyterian church in franklin square new york. And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

That's chris arnzen at gmail .com. And if you happen to be writing a question uh please give your first name your city and state and the country where you reside. If you're living outside of the usa we'll be right back after this very brief station break so don't go away.

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Back. This is chris arnz and if you've just tuned us in we have been discussing the new two kingdom theology comfort controversy. Uh for the last uh for the last hour we have had dr nelson closterman on giving us an overview of the controversy and it was obvious which side of the controversy dr closeman was citing on.

And right now we are joined with someone who is uh joined by someone who is no stranger to iron sharpens. Iron's audience pastor bill shishko of the orthodox presbyterian church in franklin square long island new york.

And he is going to be sharing for the next half hour why he is opposed to this new understanding of two kingdom theology. It's my honor and privilege to have you back on iron sharpens. Iron pastor bill shishko.

Hey chris.

Good to be back with you. Your program's great. I enjoyed. Real. Yeah. Well i'm glad that you listened.

And i'm glad that you could be uh even more i'm glad that you could be a part of the discussion. Very briefly let our listeners know something about the orthodox presbyterian church. Franklin.

Square long island new york. In church for controversy. And the website there. Well it's the site's being redone right now. Hey i'm anxious to get to this topic. Yes theology.

Yes well if you could. Uh start with uh. A a summary of what you plan on discussing for the next half.

Hour to. Perhaps some people have just tuned in. Yeah seed idea and dr klein has been developed by seminary california. They have kind of the mosaic covenant. I know it's not the topic of the program but that's that's a view that's not presented in any of the historic reformed confessions and then today the so-called two kingdoms theology which is basically the idea that there is this common kingdom or a common sphere that we would think of as state and culture.

And then there is a there is a spiritual supernatural kingdom that basically you identify with the church that that's basically where they're coming from and and i think it's i think it's good for your listeners to have just in in 2009 least popular history there was a book published by a westminster southern california graduate jason stellman called dual citizens worship and life forward was by michael horton who's a theology at westminster southern california stellman put out and that did become something of an embarrassment when not long after the book.

Right. That's that's an interesting story in itself that i don't want to personally i think there is a relationship and that development there was the publication by dr david van druenen who is a very dear friend another orthodox presbyterian minister who dr van druenen came out with.

What i found actually is a very helpful book in many ways living in gods to think this is my read on this chris. I think that dr van druenen was trying to correct misconceptions people had. I think he was trying to do more actually give a biblical basis for the two kingdoms theology and so forth and and i'll come back to that a little bit later.

I found especially at the end of the book his treatment of of vocation or calling in life the political realm and education to be to be really quite helpful in many ways although although i still have great major disagreements with the overall approach of the book now most recently he's published kind of a magnum opus uh divine covenants and moral order that was published in 2014 a biblical theology of natural law.

I've not read all of it i i've poked through parts of it uh but that would be something of a development of his viewpoints. Um let me if you don't mind let me just give you a my little input on why this two kingdoms theology is is being propagated and excellent.

Excellent. Yeah um dr van druenen. Dr van druenen has rightly reacted to. I was in a gathering of christian years ago. That's the kind of thing you know the elevated view of the church and worship of the sacraments or the ordinances as you would when david van druenen in his book living in god's two kingdoms was speaking about the church in most cases i just had to give a hearty amen over against our very kind of independent and loose view of the church i've got to give credit where credit is due.

I think they're trying to really emphasize the church and and the gospel and redemption the way they should now i've been blabbed. You want to interrupt.

Me before i give my assessment of things. No you could go right ahead with your assessment. There's.

Going to be a conference that is american you have all the data he's better i mean he's better christian gentlemen and we're dealing with an in-house debate at the ad emphasis and then a dear friend of mine um who is in this school of thinking and i i said to him once to sort of twit him in my like way you know brother um i've come to accept the 2k theology and he was stunned and he said you have i said yeah the bible talks about the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light what the bible's talking about and that and that i guess you know funny as that sounds that that's really my first bull as i read it does it separate and at this point i use the word religion separate from religion and faith and the spiritual sphere i think it really does confuse of the the biblical category of kingdom of darkness and kingdom of light.

The second thing is and and dr ben speaking respectfully i think these these may say that kelvin the mainstream of the reform tradition speaking of two he would call kingdom christ now is mediating his kingdom the state basically is to restrain iniquity and to encourage righteousness but those are good things.

And then the church is is for the propagation of the gospel and discipling but quite honestly i just i i do not get out of kelvin and i think dr clusterman dealt with as well anything like what what the propology have been have been saying and i would say the same and so far as they've tried to bring other mainstream reformers into into their their their train now as you as a pastor.

Since you are addressing the pastoral aspect of this theological controversy what do you say to people in your congregation who are housewives business owners uh blue-collar white-collar workers who have to be out in the world right.

Mingling with people uh rubbing shoulders with the lost. And even those who are politicians or are helping uh those candidating for office and all that kind of thing what do you say to them in regard to this.

Yeah that's a great great question if you.

I've got it my list you let me get to it and that's interesting at least one there is in the to continue to come to language like that. Also i'll get to this. How we define good has in my opinion a very odd view of the covenant of grace historically whether we're reformed tradition we have seen the covenant as sort of an unfolding of of of what god would do in christ.

And the covenant with noah is a preserving of the earth for the redemption of a people even as it is a picture of the great judgment of the last day. But i don't see that it inaugurates some kind of a especially even in the death penalty or where where the death penalty is a is a.

I could put this way. It's a religious thing. Whoever sheds man's blood by man his blood shall be shed for in the image of god. And it bears specifically how i say this um serious serious questions. Two kingdoms theology in relation to a historic reform moral law is the moral law of god is explained and developed.

Say in the larger catechism that we have the westminster the westminster larger catechism and and would be very similar. Chris even to the catechism that you would hold as a as a as a reformed baptist.

See that the two kingdoms people want to go back to natural law. However we define that and david dr vindrunen is trying to to to develop that standards go back to the moral law of god as as summarized in the ten commandments is binding everyone to full conformity in the whole man.

I don't see that as the two kingdoms view now. That bears chris on your question people go out into the and you shall not kill as a bear on our view of abortion or euthanasia. Absolutely it does. Does our view of the eighth commandment not to steal.

Does that bear at all on our view of taxation. Does it bear on our view of property rights over against marxism for example. Of course it does. It does. Does the the the fourth come more ways than one for economic policy and our view of work over against dependence.