January 15, 2021 Show with Eric Nielsen on “Sermons Are Not For Spectators: Glorifying God by Hearing His Word”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com

this is Chris Arnzen wishing you all a happy Friday on this 15th day of January 2021 and I just want to say that I am thrilled to have back on the program for the first time since November 24th 2009 it's been 12 years since I've had my guest on today and I'm thrilled to have him back he is the backbone of ironsharpensironradio .com

he is the man behind the scenes that keeps things running without this man the program could not exist and I'm speaking of my webmaster

Eric Nielsen and Eric has faithfully served

Christ Church not only as my webmaster but as an elder in a biblically sound church and I have long been wanting him to return but because of his busy schedule we were just not able to do it until now and I'm so thrilled to have him back on the program to discuss sermons are not for spectators glorifying

God by hearing his word it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to ironsharpensironradio .com Eric Nielsen thank you

Chris I'm glad to be here and I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away it is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own chrisarnsen at gmail .com

please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and usually we only have first time guests provide a summary of their testimony of salvation which would include the religious atmosphere if any they were raised in and the kinds of providential circumstances our sovereign lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them but since it's been so many years since Eric has been on the program

I think it would be a good idea for him to repeat a summary of his salvation testimony so that our listeners will be more familiar with him and Eric if you could tell us about your story sure well

I was blessed to grow up in a Christian family and was was part of a church growing up the church

I was in however I don't know that there was ever really an explicit teaching or explicit invitation to believe the gospel

I'm sure the gospel was preached and I think probably it was my own disinterest in spiritual things that caused me not to not to hear and understand for many years but when

I entered my teen years I rejected the teaching that I had had as a child and sought after things like the like occult

I collected a number of books on occult practices and spend my time reading those and had a like many teens had a stash of pornography that my parents didn't know about but at some point it close to my my 15th birthday 16th birthday somewhere around there

I just felt like that was completely empty and felt like those things were leading me down a wrong path

I think the Lord was drawing me to himself at that time and so I took all those things and I burned them and soon afterwards

I had the opportunity to go to a Christian concert a number of hours away

I was sort of chasing after a young woman that I was interested in but there was a

Christian comedian named Mike Warnke at the time. Oh yeah

I remember Mike Warnke I saw him when I was a very new Christian at a very very charismatic church on Long Island New York.

Yeah I mean he was he was very big in the contemporary Christian circles and sold a lot of a lot of albums and so I you know

I was thrilled to see this guy and was was moved by the testimony that he gave of having come through a satanic cult.

Of course that that story of Mike Warnke's was was made out of whole cloth it turns out that that nothing that he he said about that is true and it's well documented and and Mike sort of lost his his standing and market share in the

Christian community but nonetheless God draws a a straight line with a crooked stick and through Mike Warnke I heard my my first really solid presentation of the gospel that I understood and I believed in the in the

Lord Jesus Christ not that day but through through his ministry and listening to some other things he did later on and so that that's how

I came to faith in Christ and I guess just fast -forwarding a bit often you will ask how how people come to to believe in the doctrines of grace and so as far as that's concerned in my life

I think we have my our mutual friend Dr. James White to blame for that.

I was interested in apologetics this was a number of years later after I had met and married my wife and we were living on our our own and I was trying to start an apologetics ministry online of my own and ran into Dr.

James White. Earlier on in my my Christian life I had met a number of Calvinists online and so I was

I was shocked when I went to James White's chat channel and found that it was full of Calvinists because I knew from my previous experience that Calvinists were jerks and uh whatever uh dissuaded you from that truth well uh maybe

I maybe I've just learned to deal with uh with uh the jerks and and have come to as well uh but uh anyway

I uh um I I started looking into Calvinism and and what exactly are these these five points of Calvinism and I I realized that actually uh aside from the fact that I thought

Calvinists were were jerks I realized that they believed pretty much everything that I already uh had come to believe through my my own uh reading of scripture in particular the

Gospel of John uh and uh I wasn't wasn't too sure about that limited atonement thing but uh actually uh that was about the time that James was writing the

Potter's Freedom and so uh I I picked up uh Norm Geisler's uh

Chosen but Free and uh and actually Chosen but Free was what the what kind of pushed me over the edge

I I compared the uh the exegesis of scripture that I was seeing uh in in James and other

Calvinists and and uh the uh the comparatively uh poor exegesis that I was seeing in in Chosen but Free and so um

I I realized that uh that once I uh that was that was the main thing that uh that changed my mind

I realized one side of the argument could uh preach through uh places like Romans chapter 9 uh in a consistent way to the way that they preach the

I saw that that was not the case uh for uh for Geisler's side so uh that that is how

I came to the uh understanding and appreciating the doctrines of grace.

Wow that uh that seems even though it's not it seems so recent because I remember when

I was working for Calvary Press part -time uh before I had my own radio show and um

I was still an account executive at WMCA radio and although I was filling in on occasion uh for Andy Anderson the late

Andy Anderson who was our in -house talk show host at WMCA a an affiliate of the

Salem Media Corporation the largest radio the largest Christian radio network in the world although I was filling in for Andy and booking many guests for him

I had not yet launched my own show but I could still remember as if it was yesterday being all excited that Calvary Press was publishing this book uh by Dr.

James R. White, The Potter's Freedom, A Defense of the

Reformation and Rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen Tree and I think that was the first Calvary Press book uh that they published by James and man

I can't believe it was that long ago and that you were still an Armenian initially when that came out.

Yeah, yeah it's been a long time. And uh you are the third uh webmaster for Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio and no one listening will ever know the depth of my gratitude to you and to God for you uh for all that you do for Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio uh folks like you never get the credit do them or the honor and respect do them and um

I just remembered that it was truly an answer to prayer when my second webmaster had to uh resign from that very important volunteer position because of a serious health problem he had with one of his adopted children and that child subsequently died from a very rare illness and um it was a quite a tragedy and uh very quickly the

Lord brought you into the picture uh volunteering to be my third and thankfully still current webmaster and uh

I just want to thank God uh for you again and thank you personally for jumping uh at the opportunity to uh be such a crucial part of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio.

How did you even discover Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio? I'm assuming it was through James White somehow. Yeah it was uh it was through James White um actually

I think I was a listener to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio from the very beginning when you started the program in New York um

I remember that. Oh you definitely were because well I know that you were listening back then because you were a guest back then that was the last time you were on was 2009.

Sure sure that that was a little that was a little further on though early on when you got started um.

Yeah that was four years after we started. I think it was uh James Swan was wasn't he your webmaster?

He was the initial webmaster yes. Yeah and uh and so um it was uh it was actually me and uh there was another fellow

I forget his name for the for the time being but we we actually set up things so that uh

Iron Sherpa's Iron would be recorded each day automatically and then we uh gave those uh those mp3s to James and he would he would put them up and uh.

That's right you know I've forgotten about that that's right James White and Alpha Omega Ministries were responsible for recording all of our shows initially.

Right yeah so uh so that's that's how I started listening to Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio and how

I got involved initially. Yeah that's why the um the very first year when we were not doing that thankfully uh

I had saved uh and I probably tried to save all of the cassette tapes of the uh recordings of the live broadcasts that were going on in the first year uh but I lost the vast majority of those tapes uh

I think I lost them when I lost access to a storage locker due to a delinquent uh bill back in some very trying days and um thankfully though I had saved through God's providence a couple of crucial ones like my interview with Dr.

R .C. Sproul and Dr. John MacArthur who I think I interviewed even before Dr. Sproul and uh and you have those uh archived on the uh what do we call those uh on the uh on the website um oh what are we calling them now greatest hits or something blast blast

I think we're calling the blast from the past that's right that's right yeah they're uh uh unfortunately that I I haven't had the time that I would like to have with all of your shows that we have mp3s for are on the website but unfortunately not all of them are available through the uh through the podcast um so that's that's one of my goals is to uh hopefully release those uh little by little um to uh so that um everybody will have access to some of those older shows because there's a lot of good stuff uh that uh that uh that you did

I'm wondering how often I would recoil and horror hearing some of those older shows like Erica can you get that off the website please but uh you have chosen uh a subject today that is uh

I think a rarely addressed subject and a vitally needed subject to address and that is sermons are not for spectators glorifying

God and by hearing his word and one of the reasons why it is so rarely addressed

I think is that if a pastor is preaching on this subject he may risk having the appearance of blaming his hearers for not benefiting from his messages so he may feel too awkward to deliver a sermon on that subject and you have many hearers you have many of those in the pew who will probably more often than not if they glean nothing from a sermon they will immediately blame the preacher for this which may be a very reasonable response it may be an accurate response because the preacher whoever it may be might be very ungifted might be very inarticulate maybe biblically illiterate and maybe just a horrible preacher even if he's a genius there are men out there who are scholars and theologians and authors and geniuses who make unfortunately horrible public speakers and I won't mention any right now but I've seen in conferences some very famous people who are brilliant who

I have benefited much from an incalculable amount from their books but who were absolutely horrendous when hearing them speak so there's all different reasons why this subject isn't addressed very often at least to my knowledge it's not but it definitely should not immediately unless you already know because of the track record or you're very familiar with the person preaching and you happen to be somebody that is a seasoned christian who has proven in his life and his sanctification to have benefited much from many sermons so therefore you're not just totally deaf to the the truths being preached from a pulpit but there are we should not be immediately necessarily accusing the preacher or the pastor for being at fault when we don't glean something from a message and I think that's a sin for most christians

I have heard plenty of christians gossip and backbite a pastor after a sermon and I'm not going to say that that's where I am attending now or I am a member but over the years

I have heard that and I've even heard that from people after I was utterly blown away and blessed in ways

I can't describe hearing a message and then I hear people oh that was horrible I'm like excuse me but anyway so what compelled you first of all to want to address the subject well

I first was introduced to the subject by an article that I read on the internet and I think it was back in about 2007 or something like that I honestly you know

I'm in my 50s my timeline may be a little bit off at this point but I remember it being an article by somebody from the nine marks organization probably from Mark Devers church that talked about this talked about the fact that there is very little that is oriented towards the listeners to sermons there are a lot of books and training and that sort of thing to those who are going to preach sermons in fact in Jay Adams book on this subject he says he's got he had 600 books on preaching in his own personal library

I think I have maybe 20 in mine but I have

I think now four that are specifically about listening to sermons and I think you're right

I think that it's a difficult subject for pastors to address I mean it it's a it can sound like complaining about the congregation it can sound like like the pastor is doing something self -serving

I mean after all it's his job to preach so you know why are we getting this lesson about listening

I'm a little cynical maybe thinking that way but I honestly in my role as an elder in the church

I didn't find myself preaching as often as the pastor who was doing that as his primary duty but I did do it from time to time but most of the time

I found myself in the in the spot of the listener and I realized you know I I really have just taken this for granted what is going on I mean

I go to church on Sunday and sermon is just part of what happens we we sing we pray and then there's this sermon that sits there in the middle of one or two sets of hymns and I realized that I had never actually had any instruction about what the sermon is about just the discipline of listening and when we come back from our first break

I want you to define your terms here because obviously unless you are in a charismatic or Pentecostal church and perhaps even sometimes the pastors of even congregations within those movements don't want necessarily people thinking well uh since I'm not supposed to be just a spectator

I'm going to raise my voice and I'm going to prophesy and I'm going to do all kinds of things during this sermon whether or not anybody thinks

I'm interrupting the preacher or not so you could have an extreme reaction to that in some circles that's typically not what you're going to see or hear in a reformed church but I want to have you define what you're discussing when you're specifically saying that sermons are not for spectators and again if anybody is interested in sending in a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we'll be right back after these messages with eric nielsen on sermons are not for spectators here's what gary demar president of american vision had to say about iron sharpens iron radio recently good to be back chris i always enjoy our time you uh i have to tell you one of the better interviewers out there and i've been doing this for 30 more than 30 years wow that's some compliment how much do i owe you for that you don't have to owe me anything we're in good we're in good shape i'm glad you said it on the air so i don't have to brag about myself tell your friends and loved ones about iron sharpens iron radio airing live monday through friday 4 to 6 p .m

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here on iron sharpens iron radio to discuss that book health for all of life a medical manifesto of hope and healing for the nations that's friday january 22nd with jason garwood right here on iron sharpens iron radio and welcome back if you just tuned us in our guest today is eric nielsen uh who is thanks be to the mercy and grace and kindness of god is the webmaster uh here at iron sharpens iron radio and i cannot thank him enough for all he does and i am not exaggerating to say that this program could not exist without all that eric does we are discussing sermons are not for spectators glorifying god by hearing his word and eric if you could uh if you could define your terms what do you mean by the sermons are not for spectators specifically okay um so the the reason that i chose that particular term sermons are not for spectators is that i i wanted to emphasize the the fact that when we hear a sermon that is being preached and i'd like to talk a little bit more about what i mean by that what is a what is a sermon actually um when we listen to a sermon preached in the in the the sunday service um we are not just uh uh passive observers uh we are not in an audience uh in the sense that uh that you know you you have a hard day at work you come home uh you kick off your shoes and you turn on the tv because you just need to veg out well the a sermon is not about that a sermon is is something that requires it requires us to to listen and to and to pay attention and to to fight against the the our our short attention spans our distractions realize that we're that we're not an audience that uh that we're actually there for for a purpose um charles charles spurgeon uh made the observation he said men come to market having made up their minds what they want to tell them what they will buy and they give their attention how markets go and they act accordingly but when men come into these places of worship they do not know what they want they come they know not what for perhaps it is to see the place or hear the preacher and they go away and they have no spiritual profit how could they what profit would a man make if he went there without a purpose and stayed there without looking after his own interest and so i i think it's i think it's important that we realize when we we come to church as listeners we're we're there uh for a specific purpose and we do have a question from a listener one of our uh most faithful listeners uh loyal listeners and also generous regular supporters financially of this program grady from ashboro north carolina and uh i have to enlarge grady's email because the font's very small greetings chris and eric a few years ago i realized that i was in a rut when it came to congregational worship i realized that the main reason was me my heart wasn't prepared i found that i must start examining myself long before i attend the services that the purpose of the service is to worship god and glorify the true and living god therefore i must be ready to repent of any sins grow in the grace and knowledge of our lord willing to obey what i hear and go out into the world with the gospel do you agree with this assessment and are there any other aspects i may be leaving out wow well um it's uh first of all hello grady it's good to hear from you i was glad to get to uh meet you last year at the g3 conference and uh uh yeah i i agree um completely with uh with what you just said um absolutely the you know uh coming to the the church service with a with a prepared heart i think is is absolutely uh essential um and uh and so uh so yes i i definitely i definitely agree with you i i hope that uh as we go through the show i'll be able to to uh maybe add to uh what you've already said and flesh some of that out a little bit um chris if we don't have a another question i'll just go on to uh to talk about that go ahead um sure so um i i think the the first thing to to think about is is what is our purpose in going there uh and and particularly in in the sermon and the preaching and may grady also already made at that point the purpose and it really the entire purpose for coming together as the body of christ uh is the worship of god and um that is exactly what we what we see when we come to the sermon and uh paul when he uh when he uh wrote to timothy and second timothy uh he describes scripture uh and he he says uh this um he says all scripture is breathed out by god and profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and for training in righteousness that the man of god may be completely equipped for every good work um and uh that uh that illustration that he's using he says all scripture is breathed out by god um think of uh think of uh the the way that we communicate as as people we we breathe in the air and then when we are ready to speak we we breathe that out and our voice sounds and and that's that's what uh this illustration is that uh that he's giving to timothy when he says that all scripture is breathed out by god and he he says that that uh about the written scripture and he says it's profitable for teaching for reproof for correction and training and righteousness the man of god may be complete equipped for every good work but he doesn't stop there he doesn't stop with the scripture being sufficient for training the man of god the man who is the the the pastor or the preacher or the minister at that point in chapter four of timothy paul gives timothy this very serious charge he says i charge you in the presence of god in christ jesus who is to judge the living and the dead and by his appearing and his kingdom preach the word preach the word says be ready in season and out of season reprove rebuke and exhort with complete patience and teaching this is this is the command that he gives him i mean that's how much more serious can you make a charge in the presence of god and jesus christ who's the judge of the living and the dead and by his appearing and his kingdom uh that word preach is the word herald you're saying herald this word this word that i've talked about just above that is breathed out by god that is this is god's very voice um and so uh well the question is well what is a what is a herald before we had the internet before we had uh news uh before we had the all the various means of communications that we have now uh uh suppose a king needed to get his his message out to his subjects the kingdom's fairly large and the king's in one place the king doesn't want to go all over the place and give his message he takes that message he writes it down and he entrusts it to these men who are his herald and their job is to take the message of the king and bring it throughout the kingdoms so that his subjects can hear this message the message of the king through the herald and the job of the herald is to deliver that message in the same way that the king delivered it to him it's not to change it uh it's not to uh it's not to expand it uh it's to uh give it exactly as the king gave it to him so that the subjects will hear the commands that their lord has given and that they will know how exactly they need to understand and obey those things and so when we're hearing a sermon that is what we should be hearing the job of the pastor and the preacher is to be that herald he takes the scripture and he may he may expand it in the sense that he explains it to us but he explains it to us in a way that reflects the uh the meaning that that uh that it was originally intended to convey uh to the original hearers uh of that scripture um and uh as the herald he wants to make us hear the word of god and understand so really when we're hearing the message from somebody who is a faithful believing preacher uh we are hearing the word of god we're hearing god's uh god's teaching we're hearing god's reproof we're hearing god's correction we're hearing god train us in righteousness and so as god's subjects as the subjects of the king hearing from the herald we realize that is our purpose we are there we go to church every sunday or whenever you have your your weekly service and you should come expecting to hear from god that is that is what's happening in a sermon well we have uh an anonymous listener the anonymous listener says i know that this is not a perfect science where you can give exact number of months or years but when do you think a person should know it's time to leave the church where they are after they have been thoroughly convinced that the fact that they are not learning or benefiting at all from sermons being preached where they are is not their own fault by being a poor learner but is indeed because the man preaching should not be doing this as a calling in his life that's uh that's a difficult question um first of all it's uh leaving a church is is uh it's a serious matter um i've done it once in my life and uh i i did it for uh essentially the the reasons that uh that the listener has described um the uh the pastor that was there at that church all of the church's confession of faith was something that that uh my wife and i agreed with and and we had strong relationships with uh with the people at the church uh the pastor was not uh was not uh preaching the word of god faithfully was not uh uh preaching the gospel uh and uh and that was that was a difficult decision but i and i would i would hesitate in encouraging anybody from leaving the church but the the fact of the matter is at some point uh whether the decision might be hard it it might be uh the right thing to do if you have a man who is not fulfilling that function if you have a man who is not performing as a uh as a herald of the the words of god then you really need to find as your as your first step being a good lesson a good listener find a place where that is the case find uh find a man who is uh faithfully trying to explain what the word of god uh actually meant to its original audience and it takes that word and it explains it to you in a in a way that you can you can apply that to your life uh life um yeah i i like you say i can't can't given uh a number of months or or years or or something like that uh it's a it's a very sobering thing to have to leave a church and and so i i i will pray for you in your decision yeah and obviously a key part of what the listener was saying is that he has to rule out that he is not the guilty party that he is not perhaps uh so exhausted from staying up too late at night that he he can't even pay attention during the sermon or that he lets his mind wander too much because he he is all wrapped up in other things in his life and in the world uh there are other things too like um um i i've i've experienced the situations where um the pastor might say something or might have said something in the past and and uh and then somebody in the congregation remains angry as a pastor and that that anger will just make them unable to hear the things that the pastor is saying or or have them let them hear things in the in the wrong way that's that's also a very difficult situation and it would be better if possible to um to resolve that uh and to have forgiveness and reconciliation in christ yeah i'm going to uh god willing uh have at some point within the next several weeks uh dr joel beaky return to my program uh because he has written a book called pastors and their critics a guide to coping with criticism in the ministry and i think that would be a great segue to what we're talking about today uh but yeah that is that is a very excellent book i i highly recommend it and i'm so glad you're going to have dr beaky on to discuss that yes well if dr beaky's listening and maybe news to him because i said i'm going to try to get him on again uh he was just recently on the program uh not discussing this book but uh people do have to be very careful uh that they are there's all kinds of reasons why somebody might not be benefiting from a sermon even when the pastor is superb as i said even in my own life i have heard profound sermons that had me rattled to my bones had me examining my heart had me rejoicing uh to the lord for his grace and mercy uh that i have learned from as far as things that i never saw in the scriptures before and yet i immediately after that same message i've heard people say that was a horrible sermon like excuse me you were the same church uh so there are all kinds of reasons and some of it can be that people want to have their ears tickled is it not i mean in fact why don't we pick up on that when we come back from the break uh the danger of wanting your ears tickled to just wanting to hear what you want to hear not wanting to have your conscience bother you because your sins are being denounced from the pulpit and sometimes people have even thought that a pastor was publicly gossiping through his sermon about individuals in the congregation because they were sure that that man is talking about me personally when that had nothing to do with the reason why the pastor was preaching on it he was just bringing up something that was in the word and in the course of his expository preaching he brought up those for specific sins and so on uh but anyway uh we'll have you pick up on that when we come back and if anybody else wants to join us our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

chrisarnson at gmail .com remember folks this is the longer the normal break it's in the middle of the show because grace life radio 90 .1

fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they are required by the sec to localize this show to lake city florida so therefore they have to air their own public service announcements that are local to the area and we simultaneously while they're doing that we air our own globally heard commercials so please use this time wisely write down as much of the information as you can provided by as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more faithfully more successfully and more frequently patronize our advertisers whenever possible whether that be purchasing their products using their services visiting their churches but when you can't do any of those things at least use their contact information to respond to them to let them know that you thank them for sponsoring this show if indeed you love the show and you want them to continue sponsoring it and so not only do that write down the information provided by our advertisers but write down questions for eric nielsen about how sermons are not for spectators and send them to chris arnson at gmail .com

chris arnson at gmail .com we'll be right back with eric nielsen after these messages from our sponsors we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family bhanu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead bhanu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com

that's l e e s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ my name is bhanu gadi i'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest a crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not erupt in praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you this is pastor bill sasso grace church at franklin here in the beautiful state of tennessee our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support iron sharpens iron radio financially grace church at franklin is an independent autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of god as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our lord jesus christ and of course the end of which we strive is the glory of god if you live near franklin tennessee and franklin is just south of nashville maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby we hope you will join us some lord's day in worshiping our god and savior please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about grace church at franklin our website is grace church at franklin .org

that's grace church at franklin .org this is pastor bill sasser wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always oh iron sharpens iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine christian organizations to remain on the air like the historical bible society the historical bible society maintains a collection of christian books manuscripts and bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years the mission of hbs is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture dissemination of scripture to provide tools equipping believers and christian apologetics with evidence for the bible's reliability and to introduce reformation literature and christian art to a broader audience since 2004 hbs has toured schools and churches throughout the northeast united states reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the bible hbs's founder daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church come journey through their website historical bible society .org

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today thank you daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of iron sharpens iron radio james white of alphanomega ministries and the dividing line webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corham long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corham long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corham for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasa i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor's south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardenville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of red mills baptist church in mayapack falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnson on iron radio go to nasbible .com

that's nasbible .com to place your order james white of alphanomega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle all and 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

that's ptl bible rebinding .com as host of iron trump and zion radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth grace covenant baptist endeavors to maintain a god -centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

.com that's gcbcnj .squarespace .com

or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn that you heard about grace covenant baptist church on iron sharpens iron radio hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio .com

where you can click support that's iron sharpens iron radio .com Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Before we return to Eric Nielsen, we just have a couple of announcements to make. I hope that many of you join me on Thursday, January 28th from 8 a .m.

to 2 p .m. here in Pennsylvania, in Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania to be specific, for the upcoming

Central Pennsylvania Church Leadership Conference featuring Dr. Votie Balcom, who is truly one of the most powerful preachers and teachers alive today, and he is going to be speaking against, exposing, and refuting one of the most dangerous new heresies that is spreading in the church, and tragically not only in churches that were false to begin with, but even some solidly

Reformed churches, or at least formerly solid churches that would be in the category of Reformed, has even crept into these churches and taken them over on some occasions, which is such a shocking tragedy.

Well, Dr. Balcom will be speaking against critical race theory at this conference, and it makes it even more valuable to hear from Dr.

Votie Balcom a criticism of this because he happens to be a black brother in Christ, but he's also brilliant, and he's also extremely capable of handling this specific heresy, critical race theory, that he has studied and is very familiar with.

So, I hope you join me, and if you want to register for this conference, and by the way, everyone is welcome to register, men, women, and children, go to Facebook, and then go to type in the search engine of Facebook, Central Pennsylvania Reformation Society, Central Pennsylvania Reformation Society, and that will be the page right there on the initial page on that Facebook site where you can see how to register for the

Central Pennsylvania Church Leadership Conference featuring Dr. Votie Balcom, Thursday, January 28th, 8 a .m.

to 12 noon. I will be there manning an Iron Triple Zion Radio exhibitor's booth,

God willing, and in fact, I'm going to be giving away free Bibles provided by the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible, free brand new Bibles, so make sure you see me at my exhibitor's booth.

You have to promise to hang one of the Iron Triple Zion Radio flyers in your church, so that will be the way that you get a free

Bible, but I'll see you there, God willing, Thursday, January 28th, 8 a .m. to 12 noon. Also, folks, if you love

Iron Triple Zion Radio and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please, I'm urging you, go to IronTripleZionRadio .com,

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and you can mail checks made payable to Iron Triple Zion Radio to that address. If you want to advertise with me, we would love to have you launch an ad campaign, as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe here.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what we believe, so send me an email if you are in that category of wanting to promote something.

That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

Remember, folks, I don't want anybody siphoning money away from the amount that you are accustomed to giving to your own church where you are a member in order to give to Iron Triple Zion Radio.

In other words, don't curse your own church financially by blessing us financially.

And also, if you are really struggling to survive, please don't put your family in further financial peril or jeopardy by giving to Iron Triple Zion Radio quite just yet.

Those two things are commands of scripture to provide for your church and provide for your family. Providing for Iron Triple Zion Radio is obviously not a command of scripture, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands, providing for church and family, and you love the show and you don't want us to disappear, please go to IronTripleZionRadio .com,

click support, then click to donate now. Do it frequently and donate generously as you can.

Use some of your recreational money. Use some of the money that you used or formally used before the coronavirus pandemic hysteria to go to your favorite sporting events.

Some of you can't go to restaurants anymore. Some can, but some can't. Some of you can't go to movie theaters anymore.

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IronTripleZionRadio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, last but not least, if you are not a member of a local

Bible -believing church, I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet

Earth, and I may be able to help you find a church near where you live or where you are visiting on vacation or just visiting for some other reason.

I want to give a shout -out to our listener in Australia who visits regularly

Ukraine because he has a ministry to the youth in Kiev, and I found a church for him, a good solid

Bible -believing Reformed Baptistic congregation there in Kiev because a listener in IronTripleZionRadio lives in Kiev.

And, in fact, he is the one that first posted my parody of Martin Luther, Party, Hardy, Marty, and the

Protesters. Some of you have heard that song. This Ukrainian brother posted that on Facebook before I even knew or had any idea who he was.

Not on Facebook, I'm sorry. He posted it on YouTube before I even knew who he was. But, anyway, so if you are in that position where you don't have a church home where you live or where you are going on vacation or if you have a loved one who doesn't have a good solid church home, no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, I may be able to help you. I've helped many people all over the globe find churches sometimes within minutes from where they lived that they didn't even know existed or they didn't know were biblically sound.

So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Eric Nielsen on Sermons Are Not for Spectators.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And as you may remember, Eric, before the break,

I was starting to say one of the reasons that we have to rule out before blaming the pastor of the church where you may be a member for being inadequate in his preaching and teaching, you've got to rule out that one of the ways it could be the hearer's fault is that they want to have their ears tickled.

There are people that do not ever want to hear about sin and repentance of sin and the warnings of hell.

They don't want to hear about God's wrath. They don't want to hear about God's chastisement of his children.

They don't want to hear how we can bring trials upon ourselves through our disobedience, although that's not always the reason why

Christians obviously go through trials. Some of the finest and most godly and seasoned Christians go through the worst of trials and have historically done so even to the point of torture and death.

But there are reasons that sometimes we bring these things into our own lives and upon ourselves, and I'm sure that quite a number, if not nearly everyone, that fills those giant stadiums where Joel Osteen preaches,

I'm sure those folks are not going to want to hear true, biblically sound sermons that are a clarion call to repent and believe and that contain warnings of damnation and so on.

So if you could pick up where I left off there on that. Sure. I mean, so the biggest obstacle to being able to hear sermons and hear the word of God is just the fact that somebody might not actually be regenerate.

Somebody might not actually be saved. And Paul says in Romans, the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law.

Indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So yeah,

I mean, it's very possible that if you're in the hearing of this interview and you just, you know, you were not interested in hearing sermons at all, you want to leave, you don't enjoy,

I'm not sure anybody enjoys hearing about the wrath of God, but you don't enjoy hearing about how

Jesus Christ has died on the cross, that he's paid the penalty for the sins of those who believe, that God raised him again from the dead.

You need to repent. You need to turn to Christ and turn from your sin and believe in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross.

And if God grants you that faith, if you are regenerated, if he removes the heart of stone and replaces it with the heart of flesh, then that will make the biggest difference in your being able to hear and listen to sermons.

Yeah, the other thing you mentioned is people not enduring sound teaching.

Paul gives that warning right after he gives the commission to Timothy to be a herald, to herald the

Word. He says, do this with complete patience and teaching for the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching.

There is a danger if something that the pastor says offends you, and it is because there is sin in your life.

You mentioned before the break, individuals who the pastor used a particular illustration or mentioned a particular sin and they were offended because they thought the pastor was gossiping about their particular situation.

As a matter of fact, he wasn't. He was just faithfully heralding the Word of God or bringing out some illustration that matched their situation.

By the way, I just want to let our listeners know that I'm not making that up, that that happens if they have not experienced that in their own midst or even in their own heart and mind.

I can still remember vividly when I was a fairly new Christian. I wasn't that new of a

Christian because I was already at least dating my late wife. I may have been married, but one of her friends was visiting the church where I was a member, and right in the middle of the sermon, she got up and she walked real fast outside of the building.

I actually got up and followed her into the parking lot. I said, is everything okay? She said, your pastor is talking about me in public and gossiping about my personal life, and I don't like it at all.

I said to her, I don't even think my pastor knows you that well. That has nothing to do with why he's why he's saying these things.

It's a part of the Scripture. He's exegeting. He has to warn about sins, and just so happens the

Holy Spirit might be talking to you because your specific issues were being mentioned, but she wouldn't have any of it.

She was convinced he was gossiping from the pulpit, and she drove away. But anyway, sorry about that.

But that's exactly what Paul is warning about here.

I mean, not enduring sound teaching, having itching ears, accumulating for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.

I mean, if you experience the pastor preaching against your sin, and that's likely to happen for all of us.

We're all, even as believers, we are sinners, and so God is going to address our sin, and there's going to be some point at which we are offended.

Well, the thing to do at that point is to recognize our sin before God and endure that sound teaching, to repent, not to turn away, not to wander off into myth, because we refuse to listen to the

Word of our King. Well, do you have any other practical advice and counsel that you, as someone who has been an elder in a church for many years, and may become one again as you move on?

Because I know that your previous church not so long ago shut its doors where you were an elder, not because of you, but as you pursue your walk with Christ in the future, that perhaps that will be a calling of yours again.

But having that experience, what other counsel can you give our listeners about how to make sure that not only their lack of benefiting from a sermon is not their own problem, but also how to make sure that they absorb and glean the most benefit from a message when we are sitting there in the pew and listening to the

Word of God opened and climbed? Sure. I think there are a number of things that we can do.

I mentioned earlier not treating the sermon as if we were an audience, and Ezekiel talks about this.

God is talking to Ezekiel, and he says in Ezekiel 33, 33 -32,

As for you, son of man, your people who talk together about you by the walls and at the doors of the houses say to one another, each to his brother,

Come and hear what the word is that comes from the Lord. And they come to you as people come, and they sit before you as my people, and they hear what you say, but they will not do it.

For with lustful talk in their mouths they act, their heart is set on their gain, and behold, you are to them like one who sings lustful songs with a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument, for they hear what you say, but they will not do it.

This is quite the condemnation of the people of Israel, who evidently

Ezekiel was enjoyable to listen to. He was articulate, he was entertaining.

I mean, we know a number of things that the Lord commanded Ezekiel to do that were odd, but surely would have attracted an audience.

And so they're saying, well, let's go entertain ourselves by hearing the word of the

Lord, but yet they're not hearing it with worship.

And what I mean by that is that there is a way that you can listen to preaching such that it is just entertainment.

You're not not accepting it in order to to worship

God. And the word worship is actually a contraction, right? It comes from the word worth and the word ship, which is a suffix that essentially means worthiness.

It means ascribing worth to something. So the way that we listen to the sermon and the way that we respond to what we've heard, it really demonstrates the worth.

It demonstrates the worth that we put on the words that we have heard, and it shows the value that we place on the one who has spoken those words.

So if you've got a man who's preaching, he's acting as a faithful messenger, he's a faithful herald, he's delivering a message that's ultimately from our king, the question is then what worth are we placing?

What worth are we placing on God's word to us? And what worth are we placing on God himself?

Amen. We have to view and we have to realize that when we are in that church building or wherever we are, it might be an outdoor service or somebody's home, but wherever we are hearing the word proclaimed, we have to remember this is worship.

And our mutual dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, perhaps you've heard him say this as well, but I've heard him on several occasions, even when he's been a visitor at churches speaking, that one of the things that he hates to hear the most right before he gets up to speak is to hear the pastor of that church or the music leader or whoever happens to be making the announcements and the introductions say, now that we've concluded the first portion of worship in the service today, we are going to have

Dr. James R. White come up and speak. And the worship hasn't concluded when the person gets up to speak, when the preacher, the teacher, the guest speaker gets up to speak, that is perhaps the most important part of the entire worship service and the most important aspect of worship, is it not?

Absolutely. I mean, if you think about the rest of the service, and I love music, and I love hymns, and I love some of the new praise songs that have been written that have solid doctrine in them, and that's great.

We're declaring God's worth in song. But then it comes to the sermon.

When we're hearing the sermon, that's actually the point at which we're hearing

God's words to us. And that's the point that we want to be the pinnacle of our worship, the point in time when we hear from God, when we learn from Him, when we try to understand and apply

His words to our lives so that we can know our

King, so that we can obey what He desires. And that really listening to the sermon is the beginning of that worship.

And we have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks, obviously there are people who are hearing things preached and taught from a pulpit that they are not learning from or refuse to learn from because they have come to view what they are hearing as not being biblically sound.

Isn't that, though, a tricky situation? Because on the one hand, people should be

Berean and making sure that the preacher or teacher is truly proclaiming the

Word of God, and that he is not inventing things or guilty of eisegesis. But at the same time, a person may be thinking that they are hearing falsehood because they themselves, prior to getting to this specific church where they are now, have been wrongly taught and perhaps even brainwashed into believing things that aren't true.

How can these folks who are disappointed or disgruntled or angry about what they are hearing make sure that it is not their own fault due to their own heresy or aberrant understanding of the

Bible? That is a really good question.

I think that one suggestion that I would have for somebody in that position is to go ahead and take notes on the sermon.

And as you take notes on the sermon, think about the things that you can agree with, the things that are clearly being taught from the

Scriptures that you know are God's Word, and then think about the things that you believe are not correct.

And take those questions with a genuine questioning heart to the pastor and give him the opportunity to work with you through those things.

Now, you'll learn some things, I think, about the pastor in that way.

You'll learn what his character is and the way that he responds to you as he answers those things.

You'll also have a chance to maybe get a more in -depth explanation about why he has said something that he has said.

Sometimes in the sermon there's just not time to explain every detail as you go through.

When you preach a passage, you have to make decisions about what things to highlight and what details you may need to leave out for time or because the one theme really needs to be emphasized above some others.

But yes, give the pastor that opportunity to answer those questions, and I think that that will hopefully solve some things.

In your personal life, you probably want to continue to become familiar with the

Scriptures yourself. Learn your Bible from front to back.

Make daily reading a part of your life if it's not already. If you know the passage the pastor is going to be preaching on, prepare yourself ahead of time and start to read that so that you will maybe have questions even before the service that you'll be able to have answered as the sermon is given.

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York says, don't we have to confront our pastors or the preachers or teachers that we believe are failing us in humility, grace, and love privately if we are going through this period where we just do not believe we are benefiting from what they are preaching?

I would say absolutely. You don't want to be somebody who stirs up trouble in your church, somebody who is a person who stirs up dissension.

You also don't want to be a person who simply misunderstands what the pastor is saying and then make bad decisions on that basis.

Yeah, those are definitely very good things to think about and to pray about yourself as you come to your pastor in that spirit of humility.

That goes with everything in life. When we believe that we are being sinned against or when somebody is doing something that's hurting our feelings or whatever the case is, we have to man up or woman up and do the biblical thing as is spelled out in the

Gospel of Matthew and other places. We have to privately and graciously and with humility bring these things to the attentions of people.

Sometimes it may be a complete misunderstanding on our part when we are hurt or believe we are being sinned against.

Sometimes it may be because of the fact that in this day of texting and Twitter and email, when you can't hear a person's emotion or see a facial expression, obviously this would be different from a sermon.

I'm just saying that this is one of the reasons why many people get into conflicts and arguments and break up friendships because they just totally misunderstand each other and we have to be able to confront them in love.

Yes, email is an absolutely horrible means of resolving conflict.

You can set up a meeting over email, but don't try to resolve your differences over email.

Definitely meet person to person. We have to go to our final break right now and it's going to be much briefer than the other breaks.

If you want to send in a question, please do it quickly before we run out of time. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back with Eric Nielsen after these messages from our sponsors. So don't go away. Was your business shut down during the

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We are now back with Eric Nielsen, and Eric, if you could, I want to make sure that you let our listeners know all that you would have them know, at least all that we have time left for you to tell them, that is most important in regard to sermons are not for spectators.

All right. Well, I could probably fill up another hour or so with a discussion about practical suggestions for how to prepare for the sermon, what to do.

We could have you back to do that, by the way. Yeah, we might go ahead and do that. I think we'll go ahead and suggest a couple of things, though, that would be very helpful for people as they look to preparing themselves for the sermon's upcoming before we get together and do that again.

The two things that I think are probably the most important to prepare yourself for the sermon, first is prayer.

And by prayer, I mean praying for the pastor, praying for his study.

It takes probably about 20 or more hours to prepare a good sermon, and most pastors are busy doing other things as well during the week.

Pray for his boldness in proclaiming the truth that he has to proclaim. Pray for yourself.

Confess your sins. And the other thing that is very helpful, that I have found particularly helpful in my own life, if you know what the passage is ahead of time, spend time with it.

Read it at least once before the service. Read it with your family. Knowing the passage ahead of time prepares you to ask questions.

It makes it easier for the pastor to sort of hammer home the message that God has for you.

And those two are the main ways that I would suggest that somebody could put into practice immediately.

And of course, in addition to that, I'm assuming you would agree that it would be wise for people to have an excellent commentary that has stood the test of time, like Matthew Henry's commentaries, which people can, when they have their

Bibles open, reading that portion of Scripture ahead of time that the text will be based on, or that the sermon will be based on, for them to go through a good commentary also, to see what the great oracles of God from the past, the great men of God, like Matthew Henry, have believed these passages mean.

And of course, they are not God -breathed. They are not inerrant and infallible. But it is a good guide to have not only your current -day teachers and preachers from your own church, but to have these great men of God that the church has been blessed with centuries ago.

Yeah, that's very much the case, and I can think some pastors might be a little uncomfortable with it.

You know, I've got this message, and reading this commentary is going to steal my thunder. I guess a good reminder is that all thunder is

God's thunder, and having that commentary ahead of time will actually just make things easier for your people to understand.

And you've got about two minutes. Any other last words that you care to share, so that our listeners can prepare for this

Sunday's message that they're about to hear? Well, I mentioned

I had four books that I had read. All four of these books are still in print, and so I'll just quickly list them off.

The first is The Family at Church, again by Joel Beakey. Excellent book, especially if you want to teach your family how to listen to sermons.

Expository Listening is a book by Ken Ramey, and that is a book that is probably the most recent and has lots of helpful suggestions.

A very small booklet is Listen Up by Christopher Ash, and of course,

Solid Ground Christian Books is the publisher of Jay Adams' book,

Be Careful How You Listen, How to Get the Most Out of a Sermon. And those books would be great for a pastor to include in your church's library or use to disciple people in the skill of listening.

Well, remember, Solid -Ground -Books .com, and also for the other books listed by Eric, go to CVBBS .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. If they do not have the book already in stock, and the odds are they do, but if they don't, they will order it for you.

That's CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Thank you so much, Eric, and we cannot, we must make a pledge that we will never wait 12 years to have you back on the show.

I have thoroughly enjoyed interviewing you, and we've got to have you back on a lot more regularly, and I look forward to our next visit with you, and in fact, we could set something up right away when we go off the air.

All right. Well, thanks, Chris. I want to thank everybody for listening today. I want you to all have a very safe and healthy and blessed weekend, and Christ -honoring

Lord's Day, and I hope you all remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater