Politics: Can Democrats Be Christians?

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People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin, and the wrath of almighty God is hanging over our heads. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age-old question, can Democrats be Christians?

So Tim, why don't you just kick us off by answering that question that might seem so offensive to some. Can Democrats actually be Christians?

Yeah, I mean, the only way I know how to answer that question is to ask the question, can Nazis be Christians?

Are you asking me if I think Nazis can be Christians?

Yeah, what do you think?

I mean, my gut instinct is to say, no, Nazis can't be Christians, at least in the general sense. If I had to give a yes or no answer, it feels like it would have to be, no, they can't be Christians if they're Nazis.

Sure, sure, yeah.

But I guess there is like a nagging part of me that wants to say, well, doesn't it feel a little weird to say that a whole group of people can't be Christians? Doesn't that seem mean and kind of against what the Bible says?

I mean, I know most people are going to know John 3 .16, for example, where Jesus says that God so loved the world that he gave his only son, right? So it seems like that's kind of a general statement that really seems to be saying, hey, anyone can be a Christian.

It's no longer the Israelites. And Paul seems to agree because he talks about there's no longer Jew nor Greek, slave nor free.

Republican or Democrat?

Republican or Democrat, yeah, right. Male or female, whatever. It seems like they're both kind of saying, hey, there are no more distinctions. There's no more barriers. Anyone can be saved by Jesus. So while my gut instinct is to say no, Nazis can't be Christians, it seems like those verses might disagree with my gut instinct.

What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think all of it hinges on what the meaning of the word can is, I guess. And so, I mean, obviously any type of person can become a Christian if they'll repent of their sins and believe the good news.

So in one sense, you could say, hey, anyone can become a Christian if they'll repent and trust in Jesus to forgive them. But then the question though is, the question as I understand it, it seems to be asking the question, can unrepentant Democrats become Christians?

Is that kind of what you mean by it?

Yeah, yeah. So I guess unrepentant, I guess whether they recognize it or not.

Sure, yeah.

So, I mean, then in that way, it feels strange to restrict certain groups of people from salvation, but then the Bible seems to do that at different points. So 1 Corinthians 6, 9 says, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And then, I mean,.

You can read through the book of Revelation, for instance, and one of the things you're going to find are outside of the kingdom are dogs and sorcerers, sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, everyone who practices falsehood.

So there's categories of people who are defined by their sin and unrepentant in their sin. And so it's a very natural thing to say that in order to become a Christian, one of the things that you have to do is you have to repent.

You have to turn from your sins. You can't just, in a wholehearted way, embrace your sins. So trying to answer that question, can certain groups of people, are certain groups of people restricted from inheriting the kingdom of God?

Well, the issue is, are they repentant or not? And so then when you're bringing up the issue of Nazis, are Nazis restricted from entering into the kingdom of God? Well, if you're dealing with a group of people who wish to keep on sending Jews to the concentration camp, then in order to be saved, you have to actually repent of that and not be a murderer, if that makes sense.

And so, because murderers, people who are defined by murder are not going to inherit the kingdom of God. So an unrepentant Nazi who wishes to accept Christ as savior but continue to kill Jews, well, that's an impossibility.

So certainly, yeah, a Nazi can repent of his sins, quit murdering Jews, turn to Christ, if he wants to, and then become saved, but you can't stay a Nazi and become a Christian, as far as that's concerned.

What about the Nazi or the Democrat who says they're a Christian, though?

Nazi, comma, Democrat.

Nazi, slash, Democrat. Not that I'm necessarily, totally comparing the two, but we are talking about

I am, well, I am.

We're talking about, all right, all right, well, all right, fair enough. But, you know, either one. All right, they don't get, all right, let's just stick for the Nazi, with the Nazi for right now. Maybe that'll be a little more helpful for people listening.

The Nazi, you know, he's killing Jews in concentration camps.

Sure.

Or, you know, whatever. Evil stuff, wicked stuff, everyone would agree on that. But then he turns around, he says, oh, but I am a Christian. What about that person?

Yeah, well, I mean, many will say in the last day, Lord, Lord, did we not do all these mighty, wonderful works? And Jesus will say, depart from you, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. So the demons have a kind of faith.

They believe that God is real. They believe that God exists. The demons believe in tremble. So it's not enough just to say, hey, I believe in God.

And, you know,.

It's not even enough to say, hey, I understand the gospel. I can tell you what the good news is. Jesus died to save sinners. There is a repent element to it. So, you know, Mark 115 says,.

The time is fulfilled,.

The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Repent and believe the gospel. What you're gonna have to do is you're gonna have to actually repent. You can't, you have to repent. And Romans 10, 9 says that,.

You know,.

If you confess through your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead, you'll be saved. So this idea of confessing that Jesus is Lord is to say that He's in charge. He makes the rules.

You can't keep your sin and turn to Christ. And so the kind of people who are going to be deceived on the last day are the kind of people who want to hold on to their sin and not let go of it. And they know who Jesus is.

Notice what Matthew says. I mean, in the last day, many will say, Lord, Lord. They know who Jesus is. They can identify Him as Lord. And He's gonna say to them, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

I never knew you. So the idea there is just to say they're not submitted to His Lordship in their life. They're giving empty words. So, you know, when you're talking about like a Nazi, can a Nazi be saved?

Yes, he can be saved if he repudiates his Nazi-ness.

Right, right.

So, I mean,.

If he wants to stop killing Jews and turn to Jesus and ask forgiveness and confess he's a sinner and, you know, forsake that lifestyle, sure, yes, he can become a Christian.

And, you know,.

He might still need to pay for the crimes that he committed on earth, like Ted Bundy. But, I mean, Ted Bundy can be saved. But Ted Bundy's not gonna be saved if he wants to keep on murdering women. So there's that.

But then, I mean, the issue with the Democratic Party platform is that you're talking about a party platform that's killed 60 million babies since Roe vs. Wade. You have a political party that's devoted to child sacrifice.

Like, what do you make of that? How do you reconcile that with these strong statements in the Bible that essentially say that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God? So, you know, if you're gonna, essentially if you're gonna say that, if you're gonna be in favor of a party that is supporting murder and all the things that, you know, the Democratic Party is supporting, you're gonna have to essentially, you have to repudiate that if you want to come to Christ.

You have to repudiate these kinds of sins.

Okay.

Okay, so basically, when it comes down to that title question, can Democrats be Christian, essentially the answer is maybe technically, yes, anyone can be a Christian, but in the general sense, no. Democrats cannot be Christians if they do not repent of the ideologies that they believe.

Is that kind of, is that, am I understanding you correctly?

Sure, I mean, I think if you look at what the Democratic platform actually is, it seems to be a step-by-step repudiation of the Ten Commandments, you know, from start to finish. So it boggles the mind to think that you can support a party platform that's devoted to infanticide, that has fully seemed to embrace socialism, that, you know, is confused at the level of gender roles, human sexuality, that seems to be feeding racism in the world, that seems, I mean, it seems like you can just go step-by-step through the Democratic Party platform, and it's difficult to imagine anything actually good in it, as far as that concerns.

At almost every single level, it's divisive, it's fueled by greed, it's murderous, it's mixing up these fundamental issues of human sexuality, it's attempting to transition, you know, children into false genders.

You know, I mean, at every single point, it's hard to imagine anything in the platform itself that isn't in direct violation to God's Word at some fundamental level, and no amount of, hey, you know, we love the poor, or whatever else is helpful in terms of how this calculus actually works.

So, yes, I mean, the offer of the Gospel is good news for anyone who will repent, but you can't, you know, if you're going to repent, you have to turn from your sin. You can't just reject everything that the Bible says in a pretty comprehensive and fundamental way, and then still hold on to Christ.

Okay, so I think we've established then that no, the unrepentant Democrat cannot be a Christian. So my next question for you then is, well, what exactly are the specific beliefs held by Democrats, the ideologies that they, you know, that are foundational to the party?

What are the specific ideas that they support that lead you to say, okay, they have to repent of these things if they want to be a Christian. They can't just keep pushing for these things and still claim to be Christians.

Could you go into some specifics in terms of what those ideologies would be?

Yeah, I mean, sure. So, I mean, at every single level, you can just look to their platform and they're, you know, advocates of abortion. So one of the main things that you, one of the main elements of their platform is, you know, securing reproductive health and rights and justice, protecting and promoting LGBTQ health.

You know, they're basically trying to destroy the criminal justice system at almost every single level. They're devoted to partiality as it relates to that. They're devoted to identity politics. They're trying to slaughter the unborn children as fast as they possibly can.

They're devoted to socialism or theft. They're advocating, you know, universal basic income. They're caught up in this climate change delusion. So, I mean, I think a lot of the things that they're doing are things that, you know, seem like, you know, you can put it in a positive light, like, hey, they care about poor people.

They care about black people. You know, they care about women. But then their main, like, the issue is their means of trying to help women is to full-on embrace egalitarianism, essentially destroy the idea of husband-wife roles, destroy the idea of male-female genders, destroy babies in their mother's womb, right?

So, basically, their idea of, you know, caring for the poor is to take money from people who actually work and give it to people who don't work and refuse to work. They're incentivizing single motherhood.

So, I mean, at every single level, everything that they're doing, I can't... It's just a step-by-step repudiation of the Ten Commandments. So, like, unrestrained, out-of-control immigration, you know, a nation without borders is not a nation.

God sovereignly designed nations to have borders. So, I mean, at every single level, like, all these things are just step-by-step repudiation of the Ten Commandments. So, yeah, I mean, if you put it in a positive light, you say, oh, yeah, they care about women by, you know, turning men into women and letting men beat them in sports and share the same bathrooms with them, you know?

So, like, the issue is not the rhetoric. The issue is what are you actually doing and how are you trying to protect women and how are you trying to fix poverty and how are you trying to care for the immigrant and everything else.

So, but, yeah, across the board, a platform is essentially a step-by-step repudiation of everything that God says in His Word, particularly what you find in Genesis.

Yeah, that seems like a pretty long list of things. It's not just like, you know, a lot of times you hear, or at least I hear on social media, especially pastors and, well, maybe I'm just mainly thinking of certain, you know, big-named evangelical pastors who they'll sort of, they'll really get on to Christians who vote Republican, claiming that they're one-issue voters, right?

So the only issue that they're concerned about is, you know, abortion, for example. So they're just gonna vote for the person who is against abortion and they don't care whatever else that politician might stand for.

As long as they are against abortion, they've got those Christians' votes. And I've seen a lot of pastors go online and really slam that type of view, but then it kind of seems like a disingenuous stance to take when you think about the whole list of things that you just rattled off, you know, basically saying, no, it's not just a, you know, one-issue voting, single-issue voting.

It's like 10-issue voting. Is that fair?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

But the thing is, I mean, that one single issue is enough. I mean, look, it's enough if you're a Jew, man. If you're a Jew in Nazi Germany, is it enough to say, hey, let's, like, if at the bottom of it, it's like, hey, you know, the chief priority I have is that we stop sending these Jews to the crematorium.

Isn't that morally sufficient to say that that, you know, and this is where you have many progressive Christians and, you know, pretend conservatives like Tabeti who are essentially trying to rebuke that idea that, hey, single-issue voting is not enough.

You have to care about the poor by, you know, plundering the rich to give money to the poor, essentially. But, like, the issue, or plundering those who work in order to give to the poor, basically, you have to care for the poor by embracing socialism.

But, like, I mean, come on.

Like, you know, if,.

Like, the issue is if you actually believe that we are killing human beings, if you actually understand what abortion actually is, that we're chopping babies up in their mother's womb and, like, ripping their limbs apart with scissors and sticking scissors up inside their head and sucking their brains out.

If you actually understand that, I mean, I think any kind of, you know, morally serious person is going to say, hey, you know, we have to stop this and we have to support this. And fixing poverty doesn't compare to this by any, you know, even if socialism was the way to fix poverty, even if that's the way to do it, it's still, yes, there's a single-issue voter calculus.

But at every single level, all these, so I would say the single-issue voter critique, it's like, okay, well, yeah, yeah, I don't want to, you know, go, I'd rather go to church than, and face the COVID than to go to the BLM rally and be able to face COVID.

Sure, yeah.

But, like, here's the thing. Like, you think about that single-issue voter kind of thing. It's like, yeah, I mean, abortion's way more important than fixing poverty in the world.

And that's enough.

I mean, it's enough to stop the train to Auschwitz. Sure. If you actually believe that that's what's happening. But then, yeah, there's, like, 10 issues that are, like, step-by-step repudiations of the Ten Commandments.

I mean, you think about everything that the Democrats are doing. I mean, they're going after churches. They want to criminalize what preachers are doing and call it hate speech if we speak against homosexuality or sodomy.

Like, they basically want to blur gender lines. They want to, like, destroy the family. They want to, you know, basically sterilize men and women at a young age when they're unable to make certain decisions and prevent them from having kids for life because they're caught up in some sort of delusion.

I mean, so at every single level, it's not, yeah, it's not just a single issue that is the problem. It's everything they're advocating is a problem. Like, everything they're trying to advocate is, like, if you get past the sentimentality, yeah, it's all a problem.

But then the issue is it's, but, yeah, I mean, even that one single issue is enough for any person who really, you know, believes abortion's murder.

Okay, well, you gave a long list of things that were, you know, essentially sinful ideas to try and push that need to be repented of if you want to be a Christian. So I guess now I'm just kind of wondering, are there any ideas that Democrats hold to and really push for that could still be considered in line with the Scripture in some way?

Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of, you know, vestiges of the Christian society that we share. What makes a party platform a party platform is essentially the things that are different. And so as you think through, like, these issues at an ecclesiastical level, you have, like, denominational distinctives, for instance, in your statement of faith or, you know, how you identify yourself as a church.

And so, you know, you think about it at church level. Like, there's a lot that we share, that we assume that we share, if that makes sense. That's the foundation for our government and everything else.

So that's true at a church level, that's true at a government level. So there's a lot of things that we share, but then when you get into distinctives, like, then that's where you're going to separate yourself.

So you have some churches that are, like, cessationist. There's some churches that are Baptist. There's some churches that are continuationist. You have some churches that are, you know, believer's baptism, infant baptism.

You know, they have certain eschatological positions and everything else. And so those distinctives are what makes you... Those are the things that you would put on your doctrinal distinctives checklist.

And so like that, like, the party platform is what is going to distinguish the Republicans from the Democrats. And then with the party platform, I mean, you know, it's like every single one of those ideas is presented in, like, positive ways, meaning, oh, we care for the poor.

You know, we care for voter rights. We care for women's healthcare, right? We care for LGBTQ rights. We care about, you know, taking care of the earth, right? But so when you think about the distinctives, that's what the platform typically is going to be about, like the distinctives.

It's difficult to find anything in those distinctives that are actually beneficial and helpful. Not, I mean, if you lay aside the stated intention behind them, oh, we want to help women, right, by slaughtering them to death and letting men beat them up in sports and take over their bathrooms, you know.

So, I mean, but you look at the platform, it's difficult to find anything at the platform. But then obviously there are going to be some things, you know, we care about all religions, so we're going to attack Christianity and suppress it,.

You know.

So, but then you look at what they're doing. So what I'm trying to say is essentially,.

Like, yes, like we share,.

There's a lot of things that we share by virtue of being Americans that are not stated in those platforms. But what you find in the platform seems to me to be wholly immoral. Does that make sense?

Are you basically saying, you know, we live in a two-party system, Republican and Democrat, and both Republicans and Democrats recognize that there are issues that have to be fixed. So, you know, one example of that might be poverty, for example.

Both Republicans and Democrats recognize that poverty is something that has to be dealt with. So that's where they're similar, and that's where you might say, hey, it's a good thing that people recognize that poverty is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

Now, where we differ is in the fact that basically the two parties have very different views in how to address the issue.

Is that kind of what you're saying?

Yeah, let me give some specifics.

And so on their party platform, there's a section called Healing the Soul of America, and then it talks about protecting American civil rights. And so you look at that, and it's like, well, yeah, that sounds good, protecting American civil rights, except for when you think about the way that they actually try to go about it.

So achieving racial justice and equality. Well, how are you going to achieve racial justice and equality? Well, you're going to embrace socialism, right? You're going to create an aggrieved party based on skin color.

You're going to show preferential treatment or partiality to one group of people based on their skin color over and against another people. You're going to selectively hire and advocate for unearned positions for one person over another demand quotas, right?

Does that make sense?

So protecting women's rights, well, how are you going to do that? Well, their right to free sex, their right to the same... Basically, you're going to show them partiality in the workforce by giving them jobs that they haven't earned and demanding they get salaries no matter what kind of ability they actually have.

Protecting disability rights. And so you think about, well, how are you going to do that? You're going to do that with the same kind of socialism, the same kind of quotas. Honoring indigenous tribal nations.

So how are you going to do that? How are you going to... Socialism. Ending violence against women. How are you going to end violence against women? Well, you're going to go after the patriarchy. You're going to break down the issue of husband and wife roles.

You're going to full-on embrace egalitarianism, right? So ending the epidemic of gun violence. How are you going to do that? Well, you're going to take away the individual's right to bear arms. You're not going to understand the actual root causes which are producing gun violence.

You're going to support faith and service. Well, how are you going to do that? We're going to take religion out of the public square. You're going to try... You're going to try to take away religious non-profits 501c3 status, right?

You're going to essentially try to suppress Christianity at almost every point. You're going to support press freedom. Well, how are you going to support press freedom? By having harsher laws on hate speech and criminalizing hate.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah.

So I mean, at every single level...

With every single one of those.

Yeah, I want to achieve... The issue is I want to achieve racial justice and equality, but you're not going to do it through partiality and socialism. I want to protect women's rights, but you're not going to do that through egalitarianism.

The idea of protecting LGBTQ rights, I don't think that there's some right for one man to sodomize another man and call it marriage, right? So ending violence against women, yeah, I want to end violence against women.

I don't want to imagine violence against women, right? I'd like to end all violence, violence from women towards men and men towards women. But the issue is the solutions. I'd like to end the epidemic of gun violence.

How am I going to do that? Well, maybe we should get people off all of these psychotic drugs that they're taking. So, like, sure, you know, but... So the issue is just how are we doing these things? And you can just go on and on and on at that point.

I want to end poverty. How do you do that? We encourage people to work. Quit incentivizing single motherhood. Quit paying people to fail. Chuck the affirmative action. Let people get jobs on merit. Stop the partiality.

So at every single point, you look at their platform, you say, hey, that all... Yeah, we have the same goals. We just have radically different solutions. And the solutions you're providing are radically unbiblical.

That's the problem.

Okay.

So just to clarify a little bit, are we... When we're talking about Democrats, are we talking about the actual politicians who are getting voted in and who are ultimately the ones voting on different bills or whatever their role is in government?

Are we talking about that person when we use the word Democrats or are we talking about that person along with the people who are voting them in? What are we talking about here?

Yeah, I mean,.

I think when you're talking about this kind of subject, one thing to realize is that there's obviously... You asked the question, can Democrats be saved or...

Yeah, can they be Christian?

Can they be Christian?

You know,.

If you're allowed to speak the language of generalities, like you would allow me to speak the language of generalities when you basically... If I were to ask the question about Nazis and so if I were to say, hey, can Nazis be Christians?

It's like, well, no. Like as a generality, no.

Right?

Like you can't be an active member of the Nazi party in good standing and be a Christian. Those things like with, you know, hail Hitler and, you know, all that with the outfit. No, I mean, that doesn't work.

So as a generality, there's obviously... The Bible does the same thing. You know, murderers can't inherit the kingdom of God. But then Paul committed murder and he repented of it.

Right?

But then like, you know, there might be some kind of situation where like David obviously murdered Uriah and Bathsheba, but that wasn't who he was fundamentally to the core. So you speak the language of...

Like if you're allowed to speak the language of generalities, then you're allowed to basically make a statement, these two things are incompatible. And then everyone understands that you're speaking in the language of generalities, but then that might admit certain exceptions as far as that's concerned.

So there might be some person out there.

Who...

And I'm sure that there are plenty of people like this who vote Democrat because their parents told them to vote Democrat. They have absolutely no idea what the party platform is. They just have been told their whole life that, you know, Democrats care about poor people.

And then they go to the voting booth and all they're doing is voting what they've been told their whole life. And they actually have no idea what's going on, no idea what the issues are involved, if that makes sense.

They're just completely and totally bone ignorant about all of that. And I think that there's probably a lot of people who are like that, particularly young people who are like that, who are just kind of addicted to entertainment and are completely unaware of anything that's actually happening in the world along those lines who might be legitimate Christians and just clueless about what the actual political differences are.

So I imagine there are people like that. And I'm not trying to make a statement to say that that kind of thing is not an impossibility, but then I would say that the knowledgeable person who is voting Democrat because they know what the platform is and because they have embraced it, it's hard to imagine that the Spirit of God is actually at work in that individual as far as that's concerned.

So in other words, it is conceivable to think that there could be people out there who are, quote unquote, bad Democrats, meaning they don't really understand what it is that they're voting for.

Yeah, maybe one or two, sure.

One or two.

There might be a country of 300 million people or 350 million people and there might be one or two.

I'm sure that there's a few.

I mean, I'm sure that there's a few. Just like I'm sure.

That there's a few Catholics out there who have no idea what the Roman Catholic Church is teaching and are not praying to Mary and who grew up Catholic, but then they read the Bible when they get home.

They don't maybe understand a whole lot of what's going on. They assume that there's some kind of something about it, but then the idea of someone who is aware of the Council of Trent and understands the issues of the Reformation and is, in some sense, knowledgeably knows what the differences are, that strains the mind.

So I think there's a lot of people out there who are probably ignorant about what's actually happening, but then it's just like there might have been plenty of Nazis out there who, members of the Nazi Party, who just were deceived and didn't understand that the gas chambers were actually real or something like that.

So what about... Oh, keep going, keep going.

I'm just trying to say.

I imagine that there's some kind of people out there, particularly young kids who hail Hitler and all that, and that's what they're thinking, but then they don't know what the issues are and they're unaware of what's going on.

So they believe that, hey, Hitler's building a better society or whatever.

But then they don't know.

What's going on.

So what about the person who, kind of going back to the single-issue voting stuff, what about the person who is voting Democrat but then they don't agree with... Maybe they don't agree with most of the things that Democrats push for, but then there are a few things that they would look at and say, no, I really do believe in that.

So for example, maybe there's the Christian out there who doesn't necessarily like the Democrats' view or stance on same-sex attraction or abortion, but then they do like their view when it comes to immigration.

And so because of their stance on immigration, they decide, okay, this year I'm going to vote Democrat because I like their stance on this. And maybe they're the kind of person who's a little closer to the middle where sometimes, depending on who's running, they might vote Republican and sometimes they might vote Democrat depending on who's running.

What about that type of person? Are they still lumped in to the same category of people who need to repent in order to repent of the things that they believe in order to be a Christian? Is that question specific enough?

No, I understand what you're saying, yeah. I mean, I think it's one of those things where there is kind of like a willful ignorance that many people have related to these kind of subjects. And part of the problem is that the church for many years hasn't really taught on any of these issues and there's been plenty of pastor who has essentially come along and said that we need to keep politics out of the church.

And there's been plenty of evangelical voices out there who were essentially basically saying, hey, you know, the Republican platform isn't perfect and the Democratic platform isn't perfect and Jesus wouldn't be a Republican or a Democrat and basically trying to compare them in some sort of... as if that they're equally bad in terms of the platforms or whatever else.

So, I mean, I imagine that people can make stupid, foolish choices along those lines. They're largely ignorant and largely just a... I haven't really thought through these kind of issues very much. But then at the same time, you know, there is... you know, when you're actually thinking about the kind of issues that are at stake,.