Politics: Can Democrats Be Christians?

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Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we seek to answer the age -old question, can

01:39

Democrats be Christians? So Tim, why don't you just kick us off by answering that question that might seem so offensive to some.

01:47

Can Democrats actually be Christians? Yeah, I mean, the only way I know how to answer that question is to ask the question, can

01:55

Nazis be Christians? Are you asking me if I think

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Nazis can be Christians? Yeah, what do you think? I mean, my gut instinct is to say, no,

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Nazis can't be Christians, at least in the general sense, you know, in the most, if I had to give a yes or no answer, it feels like it would have to be no, they can't be

02:19

Christians if they're Nazis. Sure, sure, yeah. But I guess there is like a nagging part of me that wants to say, well, doesn't it feel a little weird to say that a whole group of people can't be

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Christians? Doesn't that seem mean and kind of against what the

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Bible says? I mean, I know most people are going to know John 3 .16, for example, where Jesus says that God so loved the world that he gave his only son, right?

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So it seems like that's kind of a general statement that really seems to be saying, hey, anyone can be a

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Christian. It's no longer the Israelites, you know, and Paul seems to agree because he talks about there's no longer

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Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, basically. Republican or Democrat. Republican or Democrat, yeah, right.

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Male or female, whatever. It seems like they're both kind of saying, hey, there are no more distinctions.

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There's no more barriers. Anyone can be saved by Jesus. So while my gut instinct is to say no,

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Nazis can't be Christians, it seems like those verses might disagree with my gut instinct.

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What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think Nazi, I mean, you can, all of it hinges on what the meaning of the word can is,

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I guess. And so, I mean, obviously any type of person can become a Christian if they'll repent of their sins and believe the good news.

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So in one sense, you could say, hey, anyone can become a Christian if they'll repent and trust in Jesus to forgive them.

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But then the question, though, is, the question, as I understand it, seems to be asking the question, can unrepentant

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Democrats become Christians? Is that kind of what you mean by it? Yeah, yeah.

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So I guess unrepentant, I guess whether they recognize it or not.

04:24

Sure, yeah. So, I mean, then in that way, it feels strange to restrict certain groups of people from salvation.

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But then the Bible seems to do that at different points. So 1 Corinthians 6, 9 says,

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Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor adulterers, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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And then, I mean, you can read through the book of Revelation, for instance, and one of the things you're going to find are outside of the kingdom are dogs, and sorcerers, sexually immoral, and murderers, and idolaters, and everyone who practices falsehood.

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So there's categories of people who are defined by their sin and unrepentant in their sin.

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And so it's a very natural thing to say that in order to become a Christian, one of the things that you have to do is you have to repent.

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You have to turn from your sins. You can't just in a wholehearted way embrace your sins. So trying to answer that question, are certain groups of people restricted from inheriting the kingdom of God?

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Well, the issue is are they repentant or not? And so then when you're bringing up the issue of Nazis, are

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Nazis restricted from entering into the kingdom of God? Well, if you're dealing with a group of people who wish to keep on sending

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Jews to the concentration camp, then in order to be saved, you have to actually repent of that and not be a murderer, if that makes sense.

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Because murderers, people who are defined by murder are not going to inherit the kingdom of God. So an unrepentant

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Nazi who wishes to accept Christ as Savior but continue to kill

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Jews, well, that's an impossibility. So certainly, yeah, a Nazi can repent of his sins, quit murdering

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Jews, turn to Christ if he wants to, and then become saved. But you can't stay a

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Nazi and become a Christian, as far as that's concerned. What about the

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Nazi or the Democrat who says they're Christian, though? Nazi, comma,

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Democrat. Nazi, slash, Democrat. Not that I'm necessarily totally comparing the two, but we are talking about...

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I am. Well, I am. We're talking about... All right, well, all right, fair enough. But either one.

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All right, they don't get... All right, let's just stick with the

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Nazi for right now. Maybe that'll be a little more helpful for people listening. The Nazi, he's killing

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Jews in concentration camps. Sure. Or whatever, evil stuff, wicked stuff, everyone would agree on that.

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But then he turns around and he says, oh, but I am a Christian. What about that person?

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Yeah, well, many will say in the last day, Lord, Lord, did we not do all these mighty, wonderful works?

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And Jesus will say, depart from you, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness. So the demons have a kind of faith.

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They believe that God is real, they believe that God exists. The demons believe in tremble, so it's not enough just to say, hey,

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I believe in God, and it's not even enough to say, hey, I understand the gospel, I can tell you what the good news is.

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Jesus died to save sinners. There is a repent element to it. So Mark 1 .15

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says, the time is fulfilled, the kingdom of heaven is at hand, repent and believe the gospel. What you're going to have to do is you're going to have to actually repent.

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You can't... You have to repent. And Romans 10 .9

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says that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised

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Him from the dead, you'll be saved. So this idea of confessing that Jesus is Lord is to say that He's in charge.

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He makes the rules. You can't keep your sin and turn to Christ. And so the kind of people who are going to be deceived on the last day are the kind of people who want to hold on to their sin and not let go of it.

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And they know who Jesus is. Notice what Matthew says.

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In the last day, many will say, Lord, Lord. They know who Jesus is. They can identify Him as Lord. And He's going to say to them, depart from me, you workers of lawlessness,

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I never knew you. So the idea there is just to say they're not submitted to His Lordship in their life.

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They're giving empty words. So when you're talking about like a Nazi, can a Nazi be saved?

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Yes, he can be saved if he repudiates his Nazi -ness. Right, right.

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So if he wants to stop killing Jews and turn to Jesus and ask forgiveness and confess he's a sinner and forsake that lifestyle, sure, yes, he can become a

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Christian. And he might still need to pay for the crimes that he committed on earth, like Ted Bundy.

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But I mean, Ted Bundy can be saved. But Ted Bundy is not going to be saved if he wants to keep on murdering women. So there's that.

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But then, I mean, the issue with the Democratic Party platform is that you're talking about a party platform that's killed 60 million babies since Roe versus Wade.

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You have a political party that's devoted to child sacrifice. Like, what do you make of that? How do you reconcile that with these strong statements in the

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Bible that essentially say that murderers will not inherit the kingdom of God? So, essentially, if you're going to be in favor of a party that is supporting murder and all the things that the

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Democratic Party is supporting, you're going to have to repudiate that if you want to come to Christ.

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You have to repudiate these kinds of sins. Okay, so basically, when it comes down to that title question, can

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Democrats be Christian, essentially the answer is maybe technically, yes, anyone can be a

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Christian. But in the general sense, no. Democrats cannot be

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Christians if they do not repent of the ideologies that they believe.

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Am I understanding you correctly? Sure, I mean, I think if you look at what the Democratic platform actually is, it seems to be a step -by -step repudiation of the

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Ten Commandments from start to finish. So, it boggles the mind to think that you can support a party platform that's devoted to infanticide, that has fully seemed to embrace socialism, that is confused at the level of gender roles, human sexuality, that seems to be feeding racism in the world.

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I mean, it seems like you can just go step -by -step through the Democratic Party platform, and it's difficult to imagine anything actually good in it, as far as that concerns.

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At almost every single level, it's divisive, it's fueled by greed, it's murderous, it's mixing up these fundamental issues of human sexuality, it's attempting to transition children into false genders.

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I mean, at every single point, it's hard to imagine anything in the platform itself that isn't in direct violation to God's Word at some fundamental level, and no amount of, hey, we love the poor or whatever else is helpful in terms of how this calculus actually works.

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So, yes, I mean, the offer of the Gospel is good news for anyone who will repent, but you can't – if you're going to repent, you have to turn from your sin.

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You can't just reject everything that the Bible says in a pretty comprehensive and fundamental way, and then still hold on to Christ.

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Okay, so I think we've established then that, no, the unrepentant

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Democrat cannot be a Christian. So my next question for you then is, well, what exactly are the specific beliefs held by Democrats, the ideologies that are foundational to the party, what are the specific ideas that they support that lead you to say, okay, they have to repent of these things if they want to be a

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Christian. They can't just keep pushing for these things and still claim to be Christians. Could you go into some specifics in terms of what those ideologies would be?

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Yeah, I mean, sure. So, I mean, at every single level, you can just look to their platform and they're advocates of abortion.

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So one of the main things that you – one of the main elements of their platform is securing reproductive health and rights and justice, protecting and promoting

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LGBTQ health. They're basically trying to destroy the criminal justice system at almost every single level.

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They're devoted to partiality as it relates to that. They're devoted to identity politics.

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They're trying to slaughter the unborn children as fast as they possibly can.

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They're devoted to socialism or theft. They're advocating universal basic income.

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They're caught up in this climate change delusion. So, I mean, I think a lot of the things that they're doing are things that seem like – you can put it in a positive light.

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Like, hey, they care about poor people. They care about black people. They care about women. But then the issue is their means of trying to help women is to full -on embrace egalitarianism, essentially destroy the idea of husband -wife roles, destroy the idea of male -female genders, destroy babies in their mother's womb, right?

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So they're basically – their idea of caring for the poor is to take money from people who actually work and give it to people who don't work and refuse to work.

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They're incentivizing single motherhood. So, I mean, at every single level, everything that they're doing, it's just a step -by -step repudiation of the

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Ten Commandments. So unrestrained, out -of -control immigration, a nation without borders is not a nation.

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God sovereignly designed nations to have borders. So, I mean, at every single level, all these things are just step -by -step repudiation of the

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Ten Commandments. So, yeah, I mean, if you put it in a positive light, you say, oh, yeah, they care about women by turning men into women and letting men beat them in sports and share the same bathrooms with them, you know?

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So, like, the issue is not the rhetoric. The issue is what are you actually doing and how are you trying to protect women and how are you trying to fix poverty and how are you trying to care for the immigrant and everything else.

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But, yeah, across the board, a platform is essentially a step -by -step repudiation of everything that God says in His Word, particularly what you find in Genesis.

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Yeah, that seems like a pretty long list of things. It's not just like, you know, a lot of times you hear, or at least

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I hear on social media, especially pastors and, well, maybe

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I'm just mainly thinking of certain, you know, big -named evangelical pastors who they'll sort of, they'll really get on to Christians who vote

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Republican, claiming that they're one -issue voters, right?

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So, the only issue that they're concerned about is, you know, abortion, for example.

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So, they're just going to vote for the person who is against abortion, and they don't care whatever else that politician might stand for.

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As long as they are against abortion, they've got those Christians' votes. And I've seen a lot of pastors go online and really slam that type of view, but then it kind of seems like a disingenuous stance to take when you think about the whole list of things that you just rattled off, you know, basically saying, no, it's not just a, you know, one -issue voting, single -issue voting.

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It's like 10 -issue voting. Is that fair? Yeah, I mean, absolutely, but the thing is,

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I mean, that one single issue is enough. Yeah, I mean, 60 million dead babies. I mean, look, it's enough if you're a

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Jew, man. Right. If you're a Jew in Nazi Germany, is it enough to say, hey, let's, like, you know, if at the bottom of it, it's like, hey, you know, the chief priority

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I have is that we stop sending these Jews to the crematorium, isn't that morally sufficient to say that that…

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You know, and this is where you have many progressive Christians and, you know, pretend conservatives like Tabeti, who are essentially trying to rebuke that idea that, hey, single -issue voting is not enough, you have to care about the poor by, you know, plundering the rich to give money to the poor, essentially.

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But, like, the issue, or plundering those who work in order to give to the poor, basically you have to care for the poor by embracing socialism.

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But, like, I mean, come on, like, you know, if… Like, the issue is if you actually believe that we are killing human beings, if you actually understand what abortion actually is, that we're chopping babies up in their mother's womb and, like, ripping their limbs apart with scissors and sticking scissors up inside their head and sucking their brains out.

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If you actually understand that, I mean, I think any kind of, you know, morally serious person is going to say, hey, you know, we have to stop this and we have to support this.

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And fixing poverty doesn't compare to this by any… You know, even if socialism was the way to fix poverty, even if that's the way to do it, it's still…

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Yes, there's a single -issue voter calculus. But at every single level, all these… So, I would say the single -issue voter critique, it's like, okay, well, yeah, yeah,

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I don't want to, you know, go… I'd rather go to church and face the

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COVID than to go to the BLM rally and be able to face COVID.

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Sure, yeah. But, like, here's the thing. Like, you think about that single -issue voter kind of thing.

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It's like, yeah, I mean, abortion's way more important than fixing poverty in the world. And that's enough.

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I mean, it's enough to stop the train to Auschwitz, sure, if you actually believe that that's what's happening. But then, yeah, there's, like, ten issues that are, like, step -by -step repudiations of the

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Ten Commandments. I mean, you think about everything that the Democrats are doing. I mean, they're going after churches.

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They want to criminalize what preachers are doing and call it hate speech if we speak against homosexuality or sodomy.

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Like, they basically want to blur gender lines. They want to, like, destroy the family. They want to, you know, basically sterilize men and women at a young age when they're unable to make certain decisions and prevent them from having kids for life because they're caught up in some sort of delusion.

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I mean, so at every single level, yeah, it's not just a single issue that is the problem.

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It's everything they're advocating is a problem. Like, everything they're trying to advocate is, like, if you get past the sentimentality, yeah, it's all a problem.

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But then the issue is it's – but, yeah, I mean, even that one single issue is enough for any person who really, you know, believes abortion's murder.

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Okay. Well, you gave a long list of things that were, you know, essentially sinful ideas to try and push that need to be repented of if you want to be a

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Christian. So I guess now I'm just kind of wondering, are there any ideas that Democrats hold to and really push for that could still be considered in line with the

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Scripture in some way? Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of vestiges of the

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Christian society that we share. What makes a party platform a party platform is essentially the things that are different.

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And so as you think through, like, these issues at an ecclesiastical level, you have, like, denominational distinctives, for instance, in your statement of faith or, you know, how you identify yourself as a church.

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And so, you know, you think about it at church level, like, there's a lot that we share that we assume that we share, if that makes sense, that's the foundation for our government and everything else.

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So that's true at a church level. That's true at a government level. So there's a lot of things that we share. But then when you get into distinctives, like, then that's where you're going to separate yourself.

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So you have some churches that are, like, cessationist. There's some churches that are Baptist. There's some churches that are continuationist.

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You have some churches that are, you know, believer's baptism, infant baptism.

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You know, they have certain eschatological positions and everything else. And so those distinctives are what makes you— those are the things that you would put on your doctrinal distinctives checklist.

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And so like that, like, the party platform is what is going to distinguish the Republicans from the

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Democrats. And then with the party platform, I mean, you know, it's like every single one of those ideas is presented in, like, positive ways, meaning, oh, we care for the poor.

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You know, we care for voter rights. We care for women's health care, right? We care for LGBTQ rights.

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We care about, you know, taking care of the earth, right? But so when you think about the distinctives, that's what the platform typically is going to be about.

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Like the distinctives, it's difficult to find anything in those distinctives that are actually beneficial and helpful.

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I mean, if you lay aside the stated intention behind them, oh, we want to help women, right, by slaughtering them to death and letting men beat them up in sports and take over their bathrooms.

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You know, so I mean, but you look at the platform, it's difficult to find anything at the platform. But then obviously there are going to be some things.

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You know, we care about all religions, so we're going to attack Christianity and suppress it. So but then you look at what they're doing.

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So what I'm trying to say is essentially, like, yes, like we share. There's a lot of things that we share by virtue of being

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Americans that are not stated in those platforms. But what you find in the platform seems to me to be wholly immoral.

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Does that make sense? Are you basically saying, you know, we live in a two -party system,

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Republican and Democrat, and both Republicans and Democrats recognize that there are issues that have to be fixed.

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So, you know, one example of that might be poverty, for example. Both Republicans and Democrats recognize that poverty is something that has to be dealt with.

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So that's where they're similar, and that's where you might say, hey, it's a good thing that people recognize that poverty is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

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Now, where we differ is in the fact that basically the two parties have very different views on how to address the issue.

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Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah, let me give some specifics. And so on their party platform, there's a section called

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Healing the Soul of America, and then it talks about protecting American civil rights. And so you look at that, and it's like, well, yeah, that sounds good, protecting

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American civil rights, except for when you think about the way that they actually try to go about it.

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So achieving racial justice and equality. Well, how are you going to achieve racial justice and equality?

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Well, you're going to embrace socialism, right? You're going to create an aggrieved party based on skin color.

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You're going to show preferential treatment or partiality to one group of people based on their skin color over and against another people.

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You're going to selectively hire and advocate for unearned positions for one person over another, demand quotas, right?

25:40

Does that make sense? So protecting women's rights, well, how are you going to do that?

25:46

Well, their right to free sex, their right to basically you're going to show them partiality in the workforce by giving them jobs that they haven't earned and demanding they get salaries no matter what kind of ability they actually have, protecting disability rights.

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And so you think about, well, how are you going to do that? You're going to do that with the same kind of socialism, the same kind of quotas, honoring indigenous tribal nations.

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So how are you going to do that? How are you going to socialism? Ending violence against women.

26:22

How are you going to end violence against women? Well, you're going to go after the patriarchy. You're going to break down the issue of husband and wife roles.

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You're going to full embrace egalitarianism, right? So ending the epidemic of gun violence. How are you going to do that?

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Well, you're going to take away the individual's right to bear arms. You're not going to understand the actual root causes which are producing gun violence.

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You're going to supporting faith and service. Well, how are you going to do that? We're going to take religion out of the public square. You're going to try to take away religious nonprofits 501c3 status, right?

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You're going to essentially try to suppress Christianity at almost every point. You're going to support press freedom.

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Well, how are you going to support press freedom? By having harsher laws on hate speech and criminalizing it.

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Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, we would totally disagree with every single one of those.

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The issue is I want to achieve racial justice and equality, but you're not going to do it through partiality and socialism. I want to protect women's rights, but you're not going to do that through egalitarianism.

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The idea of protecting LGBTQ rights, I don't think that there's some right for one man to sodomize another man and call it marriage, right?

27:41

So, ending violence against women. Yeah, I want to end violence against women.

27:47

I don't want to imagine violence against women, right? I'd like to end all violence.

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Violence from women towards men and men towards women. But the issue is the solutions.

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I'd like to end the epidemic of gun violence. How am I going to do that? Well, maybe we should get people off all of these psychotic drugs that they're taking.

28:09

Like, sure. So, the issue is just how are we doing these things?

28:16

And you can just go on and on and on at that point. I want to end poverty. How do you do that? We encourage people to work.

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Quit incentivizing single motherhood. Quit paying people to fail. Chuck the affirmative action.

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Let people get jobs on merit. Stop the partiality. So, at every single point, you look at their platform.

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You say, hey, we have the same goals. We just have radically different solutions.

28:42

And the solutions you're providing are radically unbiblical. That's the problem. Okay. So, just to clarify a little bit.

28:50

When we're talking about Democrats, are we talking about the actual politicians who are getting voted in and who are ultimately the ones voting on different bills or whatever their role is in government?

29:08

Are we talking about that person when we use the word Democrats? Or are we talking about that person along with the people who are voting them in?

29:22

What are we talking about here? Yeah. I mean, I think when you're talking about this kind of subject, one thing to realize is that there's obviously, you asked the question, can

29:34

Democrats be saved? Can they be

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Christian? Can they be Christian? You know, if you're allowed to speak the language of generalities, you would allow me to speak the language of generalities when you basically, if I were to ask the question about Nazis.

29:56

And so, if I were to say, hey, can Nazis be Christians? It's like, well, no. As a generality, no.

30:03

Right? You can't be an active member of the Nazi party in good standing and be a

30:09

Christian. Those things, you know, hail Hitler and all that with the outfit.

30:17

No. I mean, that doesn't work. So, as a generality, there's obviously, the

30:24

Bible does the same thing. You know, murderers can't inherit the kingdom of God. But then Paul committed murder and he repented of it.

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And there might be some kind of situation where David obviously murdered

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Uriah and Bathsheba, but that wasn't who he was fundamentally to the core.

30:45

Right? So, if you're allowed to speak the language of generalities, then you're allowed to basically make a statement, these two things are incompatible, and then everyone understands that you're speaking in the language of generalities, but then that might admit certain exceptions as far as that's concerned.

31:04

So, there might be some person out there who, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people like this who vote Democrat because their parents told them to vote

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Democrat. They have absolutely no idea what the party platform is. They just have been told their whole life that, you know,

31:17

Democrats care about poor people and then they go to the voting booth and all they're doing is voting what they've been told their whole life.

31:24

And they actually have no idea what's going on, no idea what the issues are involved, if that makes sense.

31:31

They're just completely and totally bone ignorant about all of that. And I think that there's probably a lot of people who are like that, particularly young people who are like that, who are just kind of addicted to entertainment and are completely unaware of anything that's actually happening in the world along those lines, who might be legitimate

31:48

Christians and just clueless about what the actual political differences are.

31:55

So, I imagine there are people like that, and I'm not trying to make a statement to say that that kind of thing is not an impossibility, but then

32:04

I would say that the knowledgeable person who is voting

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Democrat because they know what the platform is and because they have embraced it, it's hard to imagine that the

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Spirit of God is actually at work in that individual, as far as that's concerned. So, in other words, it is conceivable to think that there could be people out there who are quote -unquote bad

32:36

Democrats, meaning they don't really understand what it is that they're voting for.

32:43

Yeah, maybe one or two, sure. One or two. There might be a country of 300 million people or 350 million people, and there might be one or two.

32:54

I'm sure that there's a few. I mean, I'm sure that there's a few. I mean, just like I'm sure that there's a few

32:59

Catholics out there who have no idea what the Roman Catholic Church is teaching and are not praying to Mary and who grew up Catholic, but then they just read the

33:10

Bible when they get home. They don't maybe understand a whole lot of what's going on. They assume that there's some kind of something about it, but then the idea of someone who is aware of the

33:21

Council of Trent and understands the issues of the Reformation and is in some sense knowledgeably, knows what the differences are, that strains the mind.

33:37

So, I think there's a lot of people out there who are probably ignorant about what's actually happening. But then, just like there might have been plenty of Nazis out there who, members of the

33:48

Nazi party, who just were deceived and didn't understand that the gas chambers were actually real or something like that.

33:57

So, what about, keep going, keep going. I'm just trying to say

34:03

I imagine that there's some kind of people out there, particularly young kids who hail

34:10

Hitler and all that, and that's what they're thinking, but then they don't know what the issues are and they're unaware of what's going on.

34:18

So, they believe that, hey, Hitler's building a better society or whatever.

34:25

But then they don't know what's going on. So, what about the person who, kind of going back to the single -issue voting stuff, what about the person who is voting

34:37

Democrat, but then they don't agree with, maybe they don't agree with most of the things that Democrats push for, but then there are a few things that they would look at and say, no,

34:50

I really do believe in that. So, for example, maybe there's the

34:55

Christian out there who doesn't necessarily like the

35:00

Democrats' view or stance on same -sex attraction or abortion, but then they do like their view when it comes to immigration.

35:13

And so, because of their stance on immigration, they decide, okay, this year

35:18

I'm going to vote Democrat because I like their stance on this.

35:25

And maybe they're the kind of person who's a little closer to the middle where sometimes, depending on who's running, they might vote

35:32

Republican and sometimes they might vote Democrat, depending on who's running. What about that type of person?

35:40

Are they still lumped into the same category of people who need to repent of the things that they believe in order to be a

35:52

Christian? Is that question specific enough? No, I understand what you're saying, yeah.

35:59

I mean, I think it's one of those things where there is kind of like a willful ignorance that many people have related to these kind of subjects.

36:13

And part of the problem is that the church for many years hasn't really taught on any of these issues, and there's been plenty of pastors who have essentially come along and said that we need to keep politics out of the church.

36:25

And there's been plenty of evangelical voices out there who are essentially basically saying, hey, you know, the

36:30

Republican platform isn't perfect and the Democratic platform isn't perfect, and Jesus wouldn't be a Republican or a

36:36

Democrat, and basically trying to compare them in some sort of, as if they're equally bad in terms of the platforms or whatever else.

36:48

So, I mean, I imagine that people can make stupid, foolish choices along those lines.

36:55

They're largely ignorant and largely just, hey, I haven't really thought through these kind of issues very much.

37:02

But then at the same time, when you're actually thinking about the kind of issues that are at stake, it's very troubling to think about the kind of individual who would look at everything that the

37:21

Democratic Party is advocating, and has any idea what they're advocating, and doesn't have the moral intuition or awareness to see how direct of a threat this entire platform is against everything that they believe in.

37:38

Like, that's a significantly troubling kind of situation, and you just wonder how little discernment you have to actually have in order to miss it at almost every single fundamental level.

37:54

Now, I think socialism, I understand how people have underdeveloped political theology and don't realize that socialism is built on greed and theft.

38:08

I mean, because there's not a whole lot of pastors who are talking about that kind of thing, even though it's kind of obvious once your eyes are open that this is greed and theft and partiality and everything else.

38:20

And so I think people can be caught up in certain deceptions for a while. And, you know, as far as that's concerned, and then basically the kind of argument

38:33

I hear people making a lot is, well, yeah, like the abortion is kind of against the single -issue voter kind of idea, so abortion is essentially a lost battle, so we can't do anything about that, so why don't we work for racial justice or something along those lines.

38:49

And the Democrats are the ones working for racial justice, and, you know, I've been a closet racist my whole life, and I feel bad about it, so therefore

38:56

I want to go the opposite way and fix that by embracing full -on partiality and everything else.

39:03

And I imagine, like, you know, as a— so the thing is I'm making a generality, I'm making a generality to say that essentially, no,

39:13

I mean, you look at this platform, it's a godless platform, and this is incompatible, but I imagine that there are deceived people who are voting

39:22

Democrat who have just been deceived, and they're doing so largely out of ignorance.

39:28

I think that there are people who, like, are— like, you can imagine people on the spectrum.

39:34

So one is just total ignorance. Two, they may be deceived on certain fundamental issues, about an argument that doesn't make any sense, related to some of these things.

39:43

But then you have, like, when you have the people who are actively pushing this party, you just wonder, well, what team are you on?

39:48

Like, how are you missing the truth at such a fundamental, comprehensive level?

39:54

So as a generality, I'll let my generality stand, but then let it admit exceptions in some harder cases.

40:02

But I am deeply concerned about, you know, the kind of individual who can't look at— who is even remotely informed about their platform and doesn't see it as the threat to the

40:18

Bible at every single level that it actually is. That should be concerning. A huge red flag.

40:24

Yeah, I mean, if you're not— I mean, yeah, maybe you'll grow out of it, you know? Hopefully you grow out of it, but if you don't, like, that's troubling.

40:33

Okay, so we have a two -party system, and we spent about 40 minutes bashing the— one half of it, the

40:43

Democratic Party. Right, right. And, I mean, because these are awful evil beliefs to hold.

40:51

And it's not just abortion we're talking about. Like, pushing for, like, transgender whatever,

40:57

LGBTQ +, same -sex attraction, probably soon going to dabble in pedophilia and bestiality.

41:08

Bestiality, yeah. I mean, those are evil, too. Those are really evil things.

41:14

God calls it an abomination. So with good reason, we've been saying these things. But then,

41:20

I guess, the natural question that most people will probably have then is, well, what does that mean?

41:26

Like, are Republicans supposed to be, like, the chosen people of God now or something?

41:32

So are we basically implying that by saying that Democrats in general cannot be

41:44

Christians without repentance? Are we saying that Republicans then have got it all figured out and the true way to be a

41:52

Christian is to be a Republican? Yeah, I think the Republican leaders have largely failed us at almost every single conceivable level.

42:03

So, you know, the Republicans are a bunch of cowards and a bunch of spineless pansies, essentially.

42:09

And I think they have a platform that largely is the opposite of the other platform.

42:15

So on paper, it seems like they're advocating for a lot of the right things, but then there's significant problems with the methodology that they're employing to do that.

42:25

And, I mean, I think, in general, Republicans are basically in agreement with the

42:33

Democrats at almost every single level. They just want the massive societal change to go a little bit slower, you know?

42:39

Yeah, what is it, like, Republicans are just Democrats five years ago or something like that?

42:45

Yeah, I mean, it's pathetic, man. So, I mean, I don't think that there's no salvation through being members of the

42:52

Republican Party, if that's what you're trying to get at. I mean, like, you have to actually repent of your sins and believe the good news, and, you know, there's a lot of things that,

43:00

I mean, like, most Republicans have full -on embraced egalitarianism.

43:06

Like, most Republicans have full -on embraced secularism as an idea. I mean,

43:13

Republicans have problems. Like, they're all, I mean, they're spineless, and they're cowards, and that's, you know, part of the

43:19

Trump phenomenon is explained by the fact that people are sick and tired of these spineless

43:24

Republican leaders who essentially have sold us a bill of goods and have no intention of stopping

43:30

Grover's Wade and doing anything that's in their power to do. So, I think your standard

43:40

Republican has, you know, basically a party platform that's largely better and the opposite than this demonic

43:50

Democratic Party platform. They just don't have the spine or the will to carry it out. So, you know,

43:58

I remember when Trump and Hillary were running, I wrote a blog post that was entitled

44:04

Choosing Between the Beast and the Great Harlot. But then some, you know, hackers, you know, hacked our church website and took it down.

44:18

What? It was great. You'll have to send me the article so I can read it.

44:29

It's gone, man. The hackers got rid of it. You didn't even save it anywhere. No, I didn't. I just thought it'd be up, man.

44:36

So, I don't think there's any salvation through the Republican Party, and I don't feel very unified with Republicans in general as far as that's concerned.

44:47

I feel like I wish they were as committed to the things that their platform says as they say they are.

44:56

And, you know, I feel deeply disappointed with, you know, your standard

45:01

Republican at that level. But then at the same time, it's just like, you know,

45:10

I think that there are some tough decisions to make related to some of that. So, there were some things about Trump on the first round that were deeply troubling about him.

45:24

I think, you know, watching him actually govern was a mixed bag.

45:30

It seemed like he supported Christians in some ways, but then he's still supporting the

45:35

LGBTQ kind of nonsense. Right. And I don't get him off the hook for locking us down for a year with the

45:42

COVID stuff. So, I blame him for that, for, you know, caving on that issue.

45:47

And he was a shameless vaccine pusher for basically the whole time until maybe a little bit recently.

45:54

So, I don't know that there's any great political option at this point as far as those things are concerned.

46:02

But then looking at, I don't see how anyone can look at anything the Democratic Party is platforming and think, like, where is the common ground?

46:12

Where is the unity? Where is the anything that you want to support as far as that works? Okay. So, Republicans have their problems too.

46:20

And there's going to be plenty of Republicans in hell also. Right, right.

46:25

Hell will be filled with Republicans. But I'm not doing some moral equivalence. I mean, it's just like, hey, you know,

46:31

Nazi Germany's bad, you know? So, there's probably plenty of people who, like, secretly thought that we shouldn't be killing so many

46:40

Jews. But I'd rather you think we don't kill

46:46

Jews than think we should kill them and trying to do everything you can to get them on the tracks, right? Right.

46:52

Yeah, pretty profound statement. I'd rather we not kill

46:57

Jews than kill them. Yeah, I mean, so, wow. But then, yeah,

47:04

I think there's obviously, you know, if you're going to be a Christian, you need to repent of your sins and believe the good news. And that puts you in a minority of people in this country of people who actually want to actually follow

47:13

Christ with their life. Right. And that includes Republicans as well.

47:21

But then, I mean, the result of that, though, is not some kind of, well, I guess, vote whatever you want. Does that make sense?

47:27

Yeah, yeah. Because you're picking between, you're basically picking, you know, if I could be crass here, you're picking the shiniest turd doesn't mean you can just pick whichever one you want, right?

47:43

Yeah. You don't agree? Well, no,

47:49

I don't. On paper, you know, you have a turd on the other side.

47:59

On paper, it's just a dumpster fire on the other side, right, the

48:05

Democratic platform. And then, like, you know, on the Republican side, it's just night and day difference in terms of,

48:13

I mean, it has problems, but it's like night and day different in terms of the platform.

48:19

It's just they don't believe in it, you know. So I don't blame the kind of person who's disillusioned with the whole thing to say, hey, like,

48:27

I got literal Nazis on one side, and I have on my side people who want to be

48:36

Nazis but are trying to convince their party base that they don't, you know. So I don't know what to do.

48:43

So I don't blame that kind of person, but whatever you do, you don't go ahead and just go full Nazi. Right, right.

48:49

Like, that doesn't make any sense, right? You get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

48:57

So earlier you talked about pastors not really, really not teaching on a lot of these ideas that are directly tied to politics.

49:12

And so that had me thinking, I think most pastors that I've ever heard when it comes to politics generally say that politics should be kept out of the pulpit.

49:26

It seems like maybe you don't necessarily agree with that. I'm not sure.

49:32

Do you agree with that statement that politics should be kept out of the pulpit entirely?

49:38

Or are you trying to suggest that, you know, maybe politics should come from the pulpit a little more than maybe they really are right now?

49:50

Oh, I mean, that's just a nonsensical statement. It's absurd. Like, it's an absurd statement to say that politics should be kept out of the pulpit.

49:58

It makes absolutely no sense. I mean, you have to, it's not, you know, it's not whether we're going to be political, it's what politics are we going to pick.

50:08

And so, you know, you have guys like J .D. Greer and you have Russell Moore and, you know, all these guys who basically, hey, we need to be gospel -centered and we need to keep politics out of it.

50:18

And they say, as they're embracing all the left's politics, hey guys, this is not about, you know, some political position, they say, you know, as they're advocating

50:29

Black Lives Matter. Yeah, that's a gospel issue. Yeah, racial justice is a gospel issue.

50:36

Black Lives Matter is a gospel issue. Socialism is a gospel issue. It's like, well, all right, so you're not being political, you know, so what you're doing is you're just punching right.

50:45

You're basically just saying, hey, the right is not allowed to take a biblical position on a political issue, right?

50:54

But then the left is. But then the issue is, well, what does the Bible say about these things at every single level?

50:59

So there is, like, there is no neutral ground. I mean, how are we going to, like, what is just for society to do at that point?

51:10

So, I mean, what should be just laws and how do we determine the difference between just laws and unjust laws? Like, how are we going to do it?

51:16

So, I mean, everyone has to think to themselves, like, if you're, like, just imagine me and you are on a plane full of people at our church and then our plane crashes on a deserted island and we have to set up some government, right?

51:30

Well, what are we going to do? Like, how are we going to determine the rules of our government? Like, what are we going to do?

51:36

We're basically, like, you know, you say, well, I guess we're going to advocate for freedom of sexual identity as it relates to marriage.

51:45

Well, it's like, well, that's a moral position. Who determines what's right? Like, what should marriage be? You know, should we kill murderers?

51:52

Like, should we criminalize theft? Right? Should we plunder people's property and give it to other people?

51:58

Like, well, you're going to have to come up with some sort of biblical answer for what you're doing in your government and if you don't want the

52:03

Bible standard about it, then you're going to have to figure out, well, where does that standard come from? And what do you do? Just take a poll and take majority rule?

52:10

Is it just the will of the people that you determine? Well, what happens when the will of the people want to let men turn into women and have men go into your daughter's restrooms?

52:23

So, all these things, they're moral issues that we're talking about and we have to ask, what does the

52:29

Bible say about these moral issues? And so, the issue is not whether we're going to have, whether we're going to speak political.

52:38

It's not an issue of should pastors be political? It's like, what is the foundation for your politics?

52:46

So, what are you trying to argue for in the public square in general? And you can't just assume some kind of neutral vantage point and say, hey, we all agree on this and so, therefore,

52:58

Christians and pagans agree alike. You have to appeal to some kind of standard that you're going to use in order to judge what's right.

53:04

So, why is stealing wrong? Why should stealing be criminalized? I mean, if we're all just the product of random time and chance what does it matter?

53:15

Might makes right. Survival of the fittest. So, why are we fussing about stealing? But then the only way you're going to argue against theft at a political level is by saying the

53:27

Bible says thou shalt not steal. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So, it's not about whether we're going to be political.

53:34

It's about like, you think that what we're actually called to do, we're called to make disciples of all nations and to make a disciple is to teach them to do all that Jesus did and taught and certainly some of that involves thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not murder.

53:49

So, the socialism discussions related to theft, the abortion discussions related to murder, the transgender discussions related to end up getting you made them male and female.

53:59

So, it's not whether we're going to be political. It's like, what does the Bible say about these issues? And you have essentially those

54:07

Christians on the left who are basically saying, hey, you can't be political. All we have to do is talk about the gospel and then essentially all they're doing is taking all the left's talking points and then reading them into the

54:17

Bible, right? Right. So, you know, David Platt says, I don't want to be political as he preaches

54:23

Amos, let justice flow down like waters at T4G.

54:29

And it's like, well, what definition of justice are we using? Are we using the definition of social justice in the world or biblical justice?

54:35

So, you're being political. It's just you're, you know, so we're going to call you on it.

54:41

Like you're being political. So the issue is though that pastors haven't, they haven't wanted to get into politics. But then that assumes that there's some kind of neutral ground out there that as if like you should, basically that just assumes secularism essentially that the government should be run without respect to any kind of biblical standard.

55:03

And at that point it's just like, well, you guys are, you guys are doing the same game.

55:09

Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, you know, it kind of reminds me of, I think it's

55:15

Romans 13, maybe that Paul talks about, you know, we need to submit to the government and the government's role is to punish those who do evil and protect those who do good.

55:29

And so, so it stands to reason then that part of,

55:35

I mean, politics is, is just inherently tied to morality.

55:41

So we need to make sure the government that we're being, that is running our country, you know, adheres to the morals that we have, right, coming from the

55:55

Bible. So, so it stands to reason that yes, the church, well, maybe, maybe

56:03

I'll ask you this and I guess this might be sort of an obvious answer at this point, but I just want to hear you kind of, you know, just say it yourself.

56:15

And basically, not only should pastors not keep politics out of the pulpit, really, wouldn't you say it's crucial that pastors teach the members of their church how to view politics correctly in light of Scripture?

56:37

Yeah, I think definitely it's essential that we do that. I mean, it's essential we teach people to be good

56:44

Christians. Now, I think sometimes when people are talking about what you're saying, you know, keeping politics out of the pulpit, there's a distortion of that in that the duty of the

56:57

Christian then becomes essentially to mobilize the troops to vote like a certain way.

57:05

And so there is no salvation, obviously, to be found in voting for the Republican Party as far as that works.

57:15

we don't need a political solution. Ultimately, we need a moral solution. We need our country to repent and believe the good news.

57:24

And we're a nation that's facing God's judgment and we really need, like what we need is we need repentance.

57:31

But then if we repent as a society, that's obviously going to shape society. Like that's going to have ramifications for society.

57:38

So if we repent as a nation, we're going to quit killing babies the way that we have been doing.

57:44

And so, yes, there was a moral majority in the right that seemed to think that like all put all of our hope in the political process.

57:51

And if we can just get the right individuals elected, then we can shape society and get the right members on the

57:58

Supreme Court. And the problem is that obviously, hey, we keep on electing Republicans to the

58:04

Supreme Court and they don't have the courage to actually do anything. And so, I don't think there's some sort of massive political solution to the basic problem that we're facing.

58:15

Sure, but these are all moral issues. All these issues are moral issues. And if we're going to teach people to do everything that Jesus did and taught, certainly, we're going to teach them these moral issues and then that's going to inform how they interact with society as far, you know, in terms of their voting.

58:31

So, yes, it does matter if God says in the beginning He made them male and female. That has ramifications for the transgender issue.

58:39

You know, if you look through the Bible and it says, Thou shalt not steal, that has ramifications for socialism.

58:45

but what you need is you need people to repent of their sins, believe the good news, embrace Christ as Lord, and then the more that people actually do that as a society, then, and the more that they look at the world that they're actually living in and understand what these, what the choices are before them, yeah, that would shape, you know, what happens at a nation level.

59:05

But, yeah, you don't want to short circuit the process and, you know, not by might, but, you know, not by horses, trust in horses and chariot, but trust in the

59:12

Lord. Sure, but yeah, as a pastor, you're going to have to teach them, hey, what is a male?

59:18

What is a female? You know, how do you identify as a male and a female? You know, what is marriage?

59:24

What is a human life? Are we allowed to kill human lives? Does that make sense?

59:30

And so, so it's essential that we speak to the moral issues and then that's going to have political ramifications. Okay, so, essentially, what you're saying is we need to teach rightly about these different moral implications.

59:45

So abortion, for example, or, you know, transgenderism. We need to teach as pastors need to teach, like, all right, this is what a male is.

59:57

This is what the Bible says a male is. This is what the Bible says a female is. You know, does the

01:00:02

Bible say that a male can be a female? No. You know, that's the abbreviated version of the lesson that they're teaching, right?

01:00:11

But then they, are you saying they don't necessarily, the answer is not, hey, go out everyone in my congregation and vote for, you know, ex -politician who stands against LGBTQ, right?

01:00:31

That's not a sufficient statement in and of itself. The better thing is to say, let me teach my congregation about the evils of same -sex attraction, of transgenderism, and that is going to inherently inform their political worldview.

01:00:50

Is that what you're saying, or am I still misunderstanding you a little bit? Yeah, I mean,

01:00:57

I don't, as it relates to, you know, what happens in the voting booth,

01:01:04

I don't have any problem with the pastor telling his congregation, here's the moral issues that are at stake.

01:01:12

Let's look at the platforms of these two individuals and like, let me teach you what

01:01:18

I think the right way to vote is. I mean, John Piper's done that throughout various elections. I mean,

01:01:24

I don't, I'm not necessarily a big Piper fan, but I don't have any problem with, you know, providing some, you know, as a pastor, election awareness kind of thing.

01:01:37

But, so I wouldn't say that that's inherently wrong or off limits. I think you are making a moral choice as to who you're going to vote for with that kind of thing.

01:01:47

I'd say, hey, there are, you know, some of those choices are difficult depending on where you're at in a certain, so, you know, where you're at in the country and where you're at in the nation, maybe they're a little bit more difficult.

01:02:05

So, for example, you know, if I say, hey, you know, I can't tell the difference between the Republican and Democrat here.

01:02:12

I'm not going to vote Republican. I'm living in a red state and it doesn't really matter. But then if you're on a swing, you're on a swing state, you know, that kind of thing is more significant.

01:02:23

So, without, like, necessarily, or without just wading into all, how complicated some of those things can actually get, you know,

01:02:30

I think in general, if, you know, there's, you could say, hey, you know, we need to keep politics out of the pulpit.

01:02:40

Like, you have to teach on these moral issues. Every single one of them is a moral issue. And so,

01:02:46

I would certainly be saying as a pastor, you need to teach your people what, how to think about abortion, how to think about transgenderism, how to think about socialism, how to think about issues of racial justice.

01:02:57

I think you need to do that as a way of being faithful. And then if, you know, you're looking at two, you know, party platforms, you're trying to influence the world, certainly, part of being faithful would be to take those convictions and translate them into the voting booth.

01:03:12

And I don't have any problem with pastors who say, you know, try to provide some clarity along those lines about what they're voting for and what they're not voting for.

01:03:20

I think that that would be good. You know, I mean, no one blames William Wilberforce for trying to influence society to stop the slave trade, right?

01:03:30

So, we're worse than Nazis here. You know, I don't think anyone would criticize Diedrich Bonhoeffer for trying to stop

01:03:36

Hitler. So, yeah, I mean, there's some people who might criticize the way he went about doing that.

01:03:42

But here's the thing. I mean, I just think largely, you know, Hitler was an evil that needs to be stopped.

01:03:48

The democratic platform is an evil that needs to be stopped. I don't resent pastors who were doing that. At the same time,

01:03:54

I don't want pastors to, you know, essentially be acting as if the hope for our society fundamentally and foundationally is going to be found in getting

01:04:07

Republicans in office because there's something that's more primary than that. Like, there's a hope.

01:04:13

Like, what we need, I don't need, more Matt Walsh's or more

01:04:18

Ben Shapiro's. We need more Christians. Okay? Right. Like, if you want to change our society, like, the thing is, like, you get a bunch of Matt Walsh's, you get a bunch of Ben Shapiro's, they're going to mess it up in another way.

01:04:31

What we need is, we need more Christians is what we need. We need people to repent, you know, and like, so you have to see the world that way.

01:04:39

Like, we need repentance, like, in our country. And if, what repentance would look like, like, is not going to look like a bunch of people voting

01:04:46

Democrat, surely. Okay? Does that make sense? Yeah. Like, if you repent, you're like, if you repent and you actually know anything in the democratic platform, you're not going to look at that and think, oh man, these are my people, right?

01:04:59

And the people who look at that and say, these are my people are people who are fundamentally compromised at a basic level.

01:05:04

But what we need is, we need repentance. We don't need more Matt Walsh's and more Ben Shapiro's. We need repentance. Yeah.

01:05:10

Okay. Yeah. I think that makes sense. So if you could just take a minute in closing,

01:05:17

Tim, to summarize what all we're saying today, you know, when it comes to that, coming back to that title question,

01:05:25

I know we already talked through it, but can Democrats be Christians? Ultimately, the response is essentially no, right?

01:05:36

Yeah. I mean, as a generality, I want to say it just like I would say it, just as strong as I say it about Nazis, can a

01:05:41

Nazi be a Christian? The answer is obviously no. And most, like you're living in a society right now that 99 % of the people would say no to that without question, without hesitation, you know?

01:05:54

And then if you ask them some hard questions about the application, you know, what about the 12 year old girl whose parents are

01:06:01

Nazis and, you know, she has no choice but to sign on the party line and whatever else.

01:06:07

Like, everyone makes those kind of calculations when they ask the question, can Nazis be, you know, Christians?

01:06:12

Like, the answer is no, you know? The answer in a simple way is no, repentant

01:06:18

Nazis can be Christians and repentant Nazis can't, right? And then you make allowances for maybe the tough scenarios that, you know, the secret

01:06:25

Nazi who's like blowing up the tracks or whatever else, that kind of thing, like, to Auschwitz.

01:06:33

And so, everyone else, so, I would just want people, like, the simple answer to the question is however you respond to the

01:06:38

Nazi analogy is the same way you should respond to the democratic analogy and in fact, you know,

01:06:44

Democrats are 10 times worse than Nazis because we killed 10 times more people than they have and not only have we killed 10 times more people than that, like, we've embraced insanity at every single conceivable level far worse than Nazi Germany did at every single level.

01:07:02

Like, so, you know, in a lot of ways the Nazis are a rebuke to us. You know, they didn't embrace transgenderism, right?

01:07:09

Right. They didn't embrace homosexuality. You know, they didn't embrace bestiality.

01:07:14

They, you know, in terms of like the way that we're doing that, like, so, the Nazis, like, we're far worse than Nazis, man.

01:07:21

And so, you know, whatever you say, like, it's like, we have 10 times the clarity or more. Like, the moral clarity, to be on, you know, if you want to be on the right side of that discussion,

01:07:32

Democratic Party is worse than Nazis in almost every single conceivable way.

01:07:39

You know? Yeah. So, the Nazis still believed in male -female roles. They didn't embrace egalitarianism in the way that they did.

01:07:44

The Nazis didn't embrace, you know, transgenderism, homosexuality. The Nazis didn't embrace half the stuff that, you know.

01:07:53

Social justice. The Democratic, yeah. So, so, I mean, there's just, like, there's, well, that one may be weird because you have, like, the socialism national, kind of thing, president, like, big, you know, with all that.

01:08:10

But, but we're on, you know, we're Nazis on crack, you know, essentially.

01:08:16

So, yeah, yeah. The answer is, but no one, no one would care about that question related to the

01:08:22

Nazis. And so, that's the point. No one would care about that answer. But then, that just basically points us to the reality that it's much easier to see problems of a former generation than it is to see our own.

01:08:32

And there is, there, you do have to be incredibly obtuse to look at what's happening in the Democratic Party and pretend as if there's virtuous elements to be found there that rise to the level of, you know, supporting them.

01:08:46

Okay. So, you have to have a pretty hard heart. Okay. Well, we hope that this has been a discussion that has been helpful for you.

01:08:54

I'm sure a lot of people will have listened to this discussion and been totally angered by everything we're saying.

01:09:00

But I think it's pretty hard to look at everything, listen to everything you're saying, Tim, and then, you know, really disagree with it in any kind of legitimate way, if you have even a basic understanding of the

01:09:13

Bible. I mean, we should, we can't do this. But we should, as a country, be able to recognize that murdering the unborn is evil.

01:09:24

Same -sex attraction is evil. Transgenderism is evil. Social justice is evil.

01:09:31

Theft is evil. And yet, for whatever reason, this is a conversation that we have to be having.

01:09:39

And so, hopefully, for those of you who have listened to this whole episode, it's been helpful for you, or maybe it's been sort of eye -opening for you.

01:09:50

That's our prayer for you. We want to thank you guys for supporting us, and we look forward to having you on the next episode.

01:09:57

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion.

01:10:02

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01:10:11

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01:10:20

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01:10:32

Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.