The Fruit of Despair - Final Ligon Duncan

All right, everybody, let's get into it today.

I hope you had a good weekend, a good Lord's Day, a good everything, you know what I mean?

I had a great one, I had a great one.

You know, the pastor at church, we're starting a series on the book of James, which is gonna be awesome.

James is one of my favorite books in the Bible.

And yeah, yeah, so, you know, that's what's going on over here.

I hope you're gonna have a good eclipse day, you know.

The I F and love science people, you know, they're gonna be all excited.

And it's like their high holiday or something, I don't know, I don't know.

Hopefully they're in the path of totality and all that kind of thing.

They got their cereal boxes ready and everything like that.

It's gonna be good, it's gonna be good.

We got those glasses, you know, the library was handing out those glasses.

And my five -year -old is terrified that he's gonna go blind.

And I said, well, that's why you got the glasses, but he's still terrified.

He's just completely terrified.

And, you know, I'm trying to tell him like, look, you know, you go outside every day, you're not tempted to look at the sun.

So you'll be all right, you know what I mean?

It'll be fun, it'll be fun for the kids and everything like that.

The frogs will start chirping in the middle of the day.

It's gonna be great, it's gonna be a wonderful time.

I'm looking forward to see if the chickens go into their coop, you know, cause it gets a little darker, the chickens go to their coop, they think it's nighttime.

I don't know what's gonna happen, but it's gonna be fantastic.

Anyway, I was sitting in Sunday school and we're doing like, it's like a, there's like two separate

like adult Sunday schools at my church.

There's one that's kind of like general theology, at least I think so.

I've never been to it.

I've only been to the one about parenting and they're doing like a Ted Tripp series, which is a mixed bag, you know what I mean?

Ted Tripp is a mixed bag, but there's a lot of good advice there, you know?

One of the things I don't appreciate about Ted Tripp, and this is really true of all Big Eva, is a lot of times the

examples that he uses of like the sample conversations that you have with your kids, they don't really seem that

realistic.

I prefer things that are more realistic, but it's okay.

There's still some good tidbits and information there and all that stuff.

And there's another guy at the church that kind of gets it, you know what I mean?

And he always, and he's more likely to talk than I am at Sunday school.

I try not to talk too much, you know, you know, cause yeah, anyway, there's reasons why,

but yeah, every time he talks, he always says the thing that I'm thinking,.

You know what I mean?

We're like right there, like we're like eye to eye, you know, and it's good stuff.

But in any way, in any way, in any way, in any case, I wanted to, I was thinking, I was in Sunday school

and Ted Tripp was talking about spiritual maturity and it got my mind

racing, you know?

I started thinking about when Ligon Duncan started talking about spiritual maturity and I wrote a little note on my,

on my, my bulletin.

Where's my, where's my note?

I lost my note.

Oh man, I lost it.

It said, got some good stuff there.

But I think I remember what it's basically said, you know, Ligon Duncan in a second, I'm going to revert, rewind for a minute.

And he starts talking about spiritual maturity and how there's a lot of spiritual immaturity out there.

And then he kind of goes into some more explanation about things.

And it really kind of, the way it presents is that what, what he

thinks spiritual immaturity is, is, is, is really like, like optimism

and action and, and, and zeal, you know, for, for God's law.

Like he talks about like the, the theonomist and the abolitionist.

And those are the ones that are spiritually immature because they think they can go out there and get something done.

And they think they're so pure.

I mean, he obviously shades it to make it seem negative.

They think they're so pure and they, you know,.

They really think we can do it.

You know what I mean?

And it almost presents optimism as spiritual immaturity and it presents pessimism and

inaction and sort of this pious sort of sense of, you know, really what really matters is my own, you

know, walk with the Lord, which is true.

But it's like, if, but if you're, if you're zealous and you think that we can actually do something in the public square and you're

insisting that we should try, that's immature.

So it's mature to be pessimistic, immature to be optimistic.

It's mature if you don't think we could do anything good for the Lord and the civil realm in any possible world, that's

maturity.

But immaturity is thinking, now we could actually make a difference.

It's mature to be like, well, China thinks this is impractical, but it's immature to think, well, who cares what China thinks, we're in

America.

It's very, it's a very pathetic and weak and just sad view of what

spiritual maturity is.

And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually, I was gonna play that stuff, but I'm gonna skip it.

We're gonna go back to right where we left off where he's talking about, you know, no possible world and all that stuff.

Let's, let's, let's just get into it.

The Puritans will be proud.

There you go.

And, and so same thing with, with reconstructionism, you, you know, just like you were saying, friends

from other countries look at this, like it, like talk to your Chinese friends.

How impractical is this?

How immature could you be?

Talk to your Chinese friends.

How immature could you possibly be spiritually?

Your Chinese friends, they're mature.

They get it.

There's no possible world where we could have a civil governing authority that honors the Lord.

No possible world, no possible world.

That's spiritual maturity.

Eternal pessimism until the Lord comes and then you can be optimistic.

That's spirit, that's the highlight of spiritual maturity to Ligon Duncan.

In my opinion, that is totally immature, number one, but also just, it's just, it's despair.

It's like spiritualizing despair.

It's, it's actually presenting despair as a good thing.

And this is the thing too, like people get confused.

Like you, you hear the word despair and you think of weeping and being downcast and just like, oh, the

sky is falling.

That's not the only way despair manifests.

Despair also manifests in like an, an eternal path.

Like if you're pessimism, nothing's ever going to work out.

Nothing like, like here's a good way to understand despair, right?

It's like me as a Mets fan.

It's like me as a Mets fan or even just a New York, you know, sports fan in general,

unless you're the Yankees or the Giants.

Like no matter how good the team is, I always assume the worst is going to happen.

Like I was talking to my brother yesterday or the other day about the Rangers.

The Rangers are excellent.

They've won more games this year than they've ever have ever in any other season.

And they're really good.

They're the best team in the league statistically.

And I just assume we're going to go to the playoffs and we're going to drop, we're going to lay an egg.

You know what I mean?

Whoever we play, whether we play the Lightning, whether we play, it doesn't matter.

We're going to go and we're going to get swept in four games because that's how it goes for New York teams, right?

That's, that's despair.

That's despair right there.

Where no matter what is going on, you just assume it's not going to work out.

And I don't cry about the New York sports teams.

It doesn't affect my feelings, but it's just like, I know the other shoe is about to drop.

You know what I mean?

I get it.

I've seen this story too many times.

I know what's going to happen.

And when the Mets were really good a few years ago, I knew we were going to get, have an early exit in the playoffs.

I just knew it was going to happen.

I have seen it too many times.

The Jets get Aaron Rodgers.

I didn't know Aaron Rodgers was going to get injured in the first game, but I knew it wasn't going to work out.

And I've said it as much.

I said, everyone kept saying, you think the Jets are going to be good this year?

I was like, no.

And they're like, what do you mean?

Like they got Aaron Rodgers,.

Like got a good defense, all this stuff.

I knew something was going to happen.

That's despair.

And so Lincoln Duncan is trying to present despair as a theologically valid position.

Christians have no excuse to despair.

No, no excuse.

It's not a good thing.

It's not spiritual maturity.

Despair is not a fruit of the spirit.

You should be optimistic.

You should understand you have the Lord on your side.

The Lord has done mighty works in the past and he's the same Lord.

And he's going to do mighty works in the future.

That we don't know about.

We can't predict which mighty works he's going to do, but we should have optimism.

We should have a feeling like, man, God can do anything.

God can do anything.

So Lincoln Duncan is a man in the pit of despair.

He doesn't, he's not crying and he's not like downcast, but he's presenting despair to you.

It's utterly impractical.

And so many Christians present despair as if it's a theological sign of maturity

and it's one of the fruits of the spirit.

And look, it's okay to be downcast sometimes.

It's okay to have sorrows, obviously.

But Christians have no excuse for despair, none.

And he's in such a state of despair that he goes out there and he sees guys that do not have that

despair.

And he says, that's a sign of spiritual immaturity.

That's the mood we should be avoiding.

The no despair mood, you know, the fight, laugh, feast.

There is nothing Christian about that.

He doesn't even have any reason to believe some of these guys are Christians.

You're out there having a good time.

That's a sign of spiritual immaturity.

Look guys, we're out there having a good time, but you know what?

We bury our friends too.

You know, like the pastors in Moscow, you know, they do funerals.

They have difficulties in their lives.

But you know what they do have?

They have joy.

And it's clear.

And it's so clear.

And if there's one thing that Big Eva hates, it's joy.

They're joy killers.

They're joy killers.

Because they think it's a sign of spiritual immaturity.

They look at me, guys like me, and we're laughing and having a great time.

We're enjoying the Lord's world.

We're enjoying what God has given to us.

All of the gifts, all of the blessings, all of the grace that we get in our lives.

And we're enjoying it.

And you know what?

We have sad moments, man.

We do.

We've got sorrows.

We've got sorrows.

But we don't let it affect our whole lives to the point that we're in a state of despair, where nothing's

gonna work out.

We've got a friend who passed away.

But we know, we've got confidence in the Lord regardless.

Though he slay me, yet I shall praise him.

Despair's not good.

The understatement of the century.

Despair is not a Christian fruit.

It's not mature.

It's not.

It's the opposite.

What we're getting here is an upside -down view of things.

When you gladly, with a smile on your face, say that there's no possible world

where abortion could be abolished, there's no possible world.

I mean, that covers everything, doesn't it?

There's no possible world.

And I think what he would mean is with an asterisk, except when Jesus Christ comes back.

And then, of course, all bets are off, right?

There's no possible world where the Christian can influence the culture in such a way that abortion would be finally abolished.

That's despair, man.

You present that as spiritual maturity, that is the worst thing I've ever heard.

I'm just gonna call it.

That is the worst thing I have ever heard a Christian leader say about cultural engagement.

The worst thing.

He's baptizing despair.

Ligon Duncan baptizes despair in this interview.

Do not listen to men like this.

We were debating a few months ago whether optimism is a masculine trait.

And I would never have put that on the list, but I think it is.

I think optimism is a masculine trait.

And again, I'm gonna relate it to sports.

Every team, no matter how bad they are, goes into their season and they're optimistic, man.

We could actually do this.

We could actually put a run together.

We could actually do this.

Otherwise, why play the game?

Why play the game?

And men respond to leaders who are optimistic that don't walk into the game against the best

team in the league and just assume we're gonna lose.

I'm so glad that the players aren't like I am.

You know what I mean?

When it comes to the Mets and the Jets.

Men respond to optimism, man, because it's a masculine trait.

Do not listen to effeminate pessimism.

Because this is the thing.

Women worry a lot about things.

And that's part of who they are.

There's optimistic women out there, but women worry about things, right?

This is why I don't want my wife on Twitter looking up information about the economy.

You know what I mean?

I don't want her to worry about that.

So she asked me about the economy.

I mean, what's gonna happen with your business and stuff?

And you know what I say to her?

I say, don't worry about it.

Don't you even worry about it.

You don't have to look at that stuff.

You know what I mean?

We're gonna be fine and I'm gonna take care of things.

And I'll tell you what, I'll let you know about our situation, but you don't have to worry about that.

This is upside down stuff, man.

Let's get into it.

I'm taking too long.

In most parts of the world, even think in these ways.

And so again, you can be really brave and you can have these really strong opinions and you can think you're

really pure.

Purity, bravery, strong opinions, all of that is a sign of spiritual immaturity in

Ligon Duncan's upside down universe.

You gotta be despairing.

You gotta be despairing like me.

And you're the one true believer in everyone's midst.

And there's no possibility of this being implemented in any

possible world.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, Ligon.

I love Ligon, yeah.

I'll tell you right now, Sean DeMars thinks that, when he thinks about discipling his men,

who do they want him to emulate?

He loves Ligon Duncan.

Ligon Duncan is every single thing I do not want my children to grow up to be.

Every single thing.

If I think about what I want my children to be like, I want them to be the opposite of Ligon

Duncan, the exact opposite.

Ligon Duncan is the worst person in the world.

The worst possible person you can ask, you can have your kids grow up to be.

That doesn't mean everything Ligon Duncan believes is wrong.

That's not what it means.

But as a man, as a mood, as an attitude, Ligon Duncan is the absolute

opposite of everything you should want your sons to grow up to be.

Despair is not good.

And Ligon Duncan is a man of despair.

Says he has confidence in the Lord, does not act like it.

In fact, he sees that, those zeal, the purity, all that, he sees that as a sign of spiritual

immaturity.

What kind of twisted freaking world is that?

That's one thing that's going on, theologically.

Whatever happened to him who was with me is more than them.

Those who are for us are more than are for them.

Whatever happened to confidence in God,.

Whatever happened to it?

Theonomic reconstructionism is not a reformed view.

That's just, you will just not, they will go back and try and cite magisterial reformers and they will cite

them incorrectly.

It is true that there was a shift in the 16th and 17th century Reformation

in its views of church -state relations and its views of how

the Ten Commandments were to be applied in society.

And it is true that there was a shift from Britain to America in the Reformed community.

So Baptists and Presbyterians were being thrown in jail in the American colonies by Anglicans and by

Congregationalists.

They're being whipped.

And Baptists and Presbyterians thought, it's really not a good idea for Massachusetts Bay Colony to be

a Congregationalist establishment thing where we get thrown into prison, or Virginia to be an Anglican colony

where we get thrown into prison.

We actually believe in freedom of the exercise of religion.

And that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

It's not infidelity and pluralism.

It's a good thing for the gospel because you don't want people -.

Well, it wasn't pluralism because they were all Christians.

He's not telling you the whole story.

They were all Christians.

And so it's not good for Christians.

To throw other Christians in jail.

Because of a doctrinal disagreement.

Yeah, that's not good.

That has nothing to do with our current situation, but he wants you to think it does.

He really wants you to think it does.

He wants you to think it makes it wrong to reject the Satan statue in Iowa.

We're talking about two different things here.

But Ligon Duncan, he doesn't care.

He doesn't care about that stuff.

You know what I mean?

He doesn't care.

This is not the Room for Nuance podcast after all.

It would be awesome.

Because he knows a lot about Magisterial Reformation.

It would be awesome to get a guy like this to actually engage with Stephen Wolf's material, right?

It really would.

But it's not approved, so he won't do it.

Their conscience is forced in the most important area of all of life.

And you've got all of the history of the religious wars behind that.

And so there's a real sense in which Protestants invented religious freedom.

And in America, Baptists and Presbyterians really forged the consensus that came

about on religious freedom.

And now you've got a group sort of wanting to call that into question.

Let's go back to monarchy.

Let's go back to state -sponsored persecution, et cetera, et cetera.

That's the way to be really faithful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And look at that.

Look at his face, man.

It just disgusts me.

It disgusts me.

He's so proud of himself.

But he's not telling you the whole story.

He's not giving this its actual due.

He's putting the caricature out.

Yeah, yeah, we want some state -sponsored persecution.

That's what we want.

We need to bring that back.

State -sponsored persecution.

Who's actually saying that?

Nobody.

Nobody.

But look at his little smile here.

Pursing his lips.

Disgusting.

It's absolutely disgusting what he's doing here.

Yeah, it's a shame.

It's a shame that this is all we get.

This is the kind of engagement that we typically get.

We don't get real engagement.

We get the caricature stuff.

We get the Don Quixote stuff.

That's what we get.

We get that kind of stuff.

Because that's what plays to his ignorant audience.

Just as ignorant as he is.

And he, you know, I'm trying to think of how to even proceed here.

I mean, why, like, I'm not gonna give him what he's saying because it's just so preposterous.

But why are people thinking, yeah, maybe that religious liberty stuff, maybe we could do better.

Maybe we could do a better job.

Why would people be saying that?

It's because we've got satanic statues in the legislature.

It's because we have a religious pluralism that is nothing like what was happening back

then.

It's not like that.

It's where Muslims and Jews and Hindus and everybody has a seat at the table.

That's not what they had in mind.

And so maybe we can go back and do better.

Maybe we can go back and say, okay, we like the religious freedom as it was originally conceived.

So let's put some bulwarks there.

Let's put some extra stuff there.

So nobody gets the freaking wacko idea that what we meant was we should have Satan statues in Iowa.

Let's go back and fortify that a little bit.

Nah, nah, nah, that's too optimistic.

That can't happen in any possible world.

What are you guys?

You guys are crazy.

You guys are crazy.

You guys are immature spiritually.

Disgusting.

It's very childish to me.

It also feels -.

It's very childish for a man of despair.

A man in the grips, in the depths, in the pit of despair.

That's Ligon Duncan in a nutshell.

Totally demoralized, totally despairing, and it's immature to think we could do anything positive,

anything differently than what we have right now.

If you think we could do things differently and maybe have a better outcome, you are spiritually immature and childish.

And then Sean DeMar's there.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally, man, yeah.

Unreal.

It feels like a visceral response.

America, this thing that we've loved for so long that we felt in control of, we're losing that.

There he is, closing his eyes again.

We're terrified, and listen, I get it.

I don't want drag queen story hour any more than you do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Actually, you do.

Actually, yes, you do, Sean DeMar.

You want drag queen story hour more than I do.

Now, I'm not saying you want it, but you don't not want it enough.

That's as simple as that.

So don't tell me that you're against drag queen story hour as much as I am.

That is not true.

You are lying.

You might like to think that about yourself, but that's not the way it is.

You're more okay with drag, let me say it this way.

You're more okay with drag queen story hour than I am.

Much more.

Because there's no reason as a Christian that we need to politically put up with that.

There is no reason.

You can't find any reason in the Bible, and you can't find any reason in the reformed magisterial fathers.

You can't.

So that's something that's coming from you and somewhere else.

It's not coming from Christian tradition.

We don't have to put up with drag queen story hour.

We don't.

It's not a gift of liberty.

It's not anywhere in natural law.

Nowhere can you support drag queen story hour.

You don't have to.

That could actually be banned, and it would be good for it to be banned

with the sword of the civil governing authority.

You could do it, and you should do it.

And there's nothing in the Bible that would make you think otherwise.

Nothing.

So don't tell me that you,.

Yeah, I don't want it as much as you.

No, it's not true.

It's not true.

As good Bible guys, or the reformed guys, we can't just say, let's take America back.

That feels carnal.

It's almost like theonomy allows us to baptize that instinct.

Well, now I'm trying to find -.

Basically, if you want to use the law to

punish evildoers any more than is socially acceptable, that's carnal is

what he's saying.

That's carnal.

Why in the world,.

What passage would he point to to make you think that that was the case, that the civil governing authority

can only punish evildoers so much as socially acceptable?

We have a standard.

We have a standard.

Now, I'm a theonomist, so I like the revealed law.

Of course I do.

And I'm not saying natural law guys don't like the revealed law.

They do.

But there's nowhere in natural law that you could think this either.

So this is the thing.

No matter what, you like the natural law, you like the revealed law better.

That's kind of a weird way to say it,.

Because I like both, right?

I think they're both from God, right?

So that's a weird way to say it.

But you know what I'm trying to say.

Whether you want to make a natural law argument or a revealed law argument, whatever the argument is, there's

no reason, no reason whatsoever to think that using that to say, yeah, the civil

governing authority should not put up with Drag Queen Story Hour, does not have to put up with Drag Queen Story Hour,

and should abolish Drag Queen Story Hour as being a legitimate legal thing to do.

Drag Queen Story Hour should be pushed into the closet, pushed into the alleyways and stuff like that, and it should be

suppressed.

There's nothing in the natural law and there's nothing in the revealed law to make you think that that's a carnal impulse.

Nothing.

So your facts are wrong.

And the facts are, Sean, oh, I found my notes.

Yeah.

Ha ha.

The facts are, Sean, that you do not feel this, you are, it's not the

case that you don't like Drag Queen Story Hour just as much as the next guy.

It's just not the case.

You don't hate it enough.

You don't feel the same way about it that I do.

You just don't.

You're more willing to put up with it for some reason, and it's not biblical reasons, and it's not the fruit of the spirit,

and it's not natural law reasons, because none of that would support putting up with Drag Queen Story

Hour.

None of it.

So between the two of us, one of us is LARPing, and it's not me.

Theological rationale for this impulse, you know?

So I can actually say, no, me fighting to save the country is a biblical thing.

Brother, we could talk so much more.

You have to go.

I'm so thankful, honored, humbled that you would take the time to do this.

Let me pray and ask the Lord to bless him.

All right, we're gonna stop there because I'm pretty sure that the Lord doesn't bless podcasts

with dozens of lies and a whole bunch of nonsense.

He doesn't.

When you go out and you lie about someone and then you ask God to bless it, that, it doesn't work that way.

God doesn't bless your sin.

He covers your sin, but he doesn't bless it.

It's as simple as that.

You're not blessed when you're out there lying about brothers in the Lord.

He doesn't do that.

I believe your sins are covered.

I believe all of that stuff.

I believe you're not gonna pay for these sins, these multiple sins that you're just letting hang out there and you're not gonna say anything.

Anyway, I think I've made my point.

And I think that's the last episode on this podcast because I'm not gonna argue with their prayers.

Now, here's the thing.

Here's the thing.

Shonda Mars, Ligon Duncan, believe they're believers.

I believe that they've massively sinned here.

And I believe they have a massive opportunity to repent of these sins.

They don't have to agree with us on Drag Queen Story Hour.

They don't have to love Doug Wilson.

They don't have to love me.

They don't have to like our mood or approve of it.

They don't have to do any of that stuff, right?

But they do have to apologize.

They need to because we misrepresented things.

We lied by omission.

We lied directly.

We didn't tell you the whole story.

We made it seem like Doug and Moscow is a certain way.

And I believe that they do err in that way sometimes, but I didn't tell you everything.

And that was wrong.

I shouldn't have done that.

I know better.

That would be so helpful to the church.

And I think most of us would forgive them instantly.

I would.

I would never mention it again.

I would never mention it again.

And I'd probably even do a video pointing out that amazing repentance.

I would do a video praising it.

That's what I would do.

You have such an opportunity here.

You don't have to like me.

You don't have to like my style.

You don't have to.

You have an opportunity.

And I think it would do the church a whole lot of good to see that humility, to see that wonderful

grace that you guys are so proudly proclaiming all the time.

It would be so awesome to see.

And I'll be honest, I'm not holding my breath.

I don't think any of you should hold your breath because you will die.

You will die of asphyxiation if you hold your breath.

A real shame, guys.

A real shame.

In any case, I guess that's it.

Sean DeMars, my email's open.

You can hit me up at ad at adrobles .com if you have anything to say for yourself.

Glad to come on the show again.

I'll come on the show again, but I will warn you that this time around, I will record it myself as well

so that we can't get any of those shenanigans that happened the first time I was on your show.

I'm not expecting any invitations, I'll tell you that.

They don't have nuance for a guy like me.

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this Ligon Duncan review and we're gonna move on to something else.

I got a few ideas from people that look pretty juicy, look pretty good, and we're gonna have a great time.

Hope you found this video helpful.

God bless.