Boko Haram Continues Intense Persecution of Christians in Nigeria

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Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. We're going to talk today about persecution in Nigeria.

00:19

We've talked about this before. Uh, we've kind of adopted a missions organization on this particular podcast, equipping the persecuted started by Judd Saul, who's going to be the one we're going to be talking to today.

00:32

And, um, I just, Judd sent me a, an article a few days ago, uh, by an independent journalist in Joss, Nigeria named

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Masara Kim, and it is heartbreaking. Um, I don't know if I have a public link to it.

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He sent it to me over email, but if I can get a public link, I'll try to link to it in the info section or in the notes.

00:52

So you guys can see what I'm looking at, but what's happening there is we talk about persecution happening in this country or starting in this country.

01:02

Uh, discrimination against Christians, um, certain businesses that aren't allowed to operate unless they will celebrate sexual degeneracy.

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We talk about, um, what happened just recently with the shooting in Nashville. And I mean, there's, there's a lot of examples of various ways in which

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Christians are being, um, discriminated against for lack of a better term. And in Nigeria, though, this is on a whole nother level.

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This is the real persecution, the persecution that we read about in the Bible and, and I don't think it can't get that way in this country because it has possible, but in Nigeria, it already is this way.

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And it's Muslims, uh, terrorists, um, Boca, Boca Haram. Uh, and I don't know, there's probably a number of groups involved in going into these villages, these

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Christian villages and killing as many people as they can and, uh, screaming allahu akbar.

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And, and just, uh, it is one of the most sad things that, um, I've read and we're insulated from it.

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And I think it's very good for a number of reasons to share with you what's actually going on because number one, it strengthens our faith that people can endure this and they, they still know that Jesus is

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Lord, Jesus is King. Their, their hope is in the eternal realm, which is where our hope needs to be. Number two, uh,

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I think it sobers us. It makes us ready and more aware of the fact that this could happen, that this does happen.

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Um, number three, it gives us a way to pray for people who we normally maybe wouldn't think about.

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We're not seeing this stuff in our news reports, but it is happening across the world. And we have an attachment because we share the same father, which is the

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Lord God almighty. And we, we're in the same family of God. And so, um, anyway, uh, that was a bit of a long intro, but I just want to thank you

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Judd for doing all that you're doing to help these people. Um, tell us a little bit about what's going on there.

02:56

Well, since the Arab spring that, uh, president Obama helped initiate after he took office, which was an entire destabilization of the

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Middle East. Um, you saw a massive amount of radical

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Islam taking place all over, uh, the Middle East and in Africa, Northern Africa.

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And that has just continued, uh, since, and what we're seeing is, is radical Islam being more emboldened and they are, um, going into came in from Northern Nigeria through Niger, through Chad, and they are systematically slowly, but surely eliminating

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Christians in the North. And they are moving further South. They take territory little by little by little village by village by village.

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And they go in, um, they, they kill as many as they can. And the ones that don't run fast enough, which is usually the children and the elderly are the ones that get hit the most.

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And, uh, what you're showing pictures of, uh, right there on the screen is, uh, pictures of the aftermath of a recent attack that happened last week, actually multiple attacks happened last week.

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Uh, one in Benway, uh, Nigeria, um, where over a hundred people were killed and then another 40 were killed in the state of Kaduna and, um, uh, with very little pushback from the government with very little pushback from the

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Nigerian government and, um, news article, a few news articles came out about it because over a hundred people were killed.

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So then that, that makes a couple of headlines here, but they keep saying it's tribal violence.

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It's tribal conflict. It's a lie. What it is, is it's

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Muslims killing Christians, because what happens is they come into the village. They come in with machetes and AK 47s shouting

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Alu Akbar and murdering children, women, and elderly.

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And some of the men that try to defend their families and wives get killed too. Uh, it's heartbreaking reading about this and, um, seeing these videos and these images.

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Uh, let me ask you the obvious question that I think I probably asked you this before, but I think every

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Christian wants to know just about when they hear this. Is there anything being done? I get like, can't the government protect them?

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And if the government can't protect them, can't they fight back? Why aren't they armed? Why don't they have security? And I know one of the things you're doing is, uh, equipping the persecuted is supplying things like body armor, walkie talkies, uh, trying to get, um, procedures in place to prevent the extent of the damage that's happened.

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Talk to us about that. Why is it that this keeps happening? And is there any way to stop it? Uh, there's, there's only one way to stop it.

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And that's for the Nigerian government to protect its own citizens. You know, the basic function of government is to protect the innocent and fight evil.

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It's to protect the innocent and fight evil. Well, the Nigerian government is failing to protect the innocent.

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Uh, the stuff happens time and time and again. And, um, our current administration, the

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Biden administration has actually emboldened to the Nigerian government, not to do anything. Um, uh, under the

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Trump administration, Nigeria was put on the terror watch list, uh, which implemented policies and pressure on Nigeria to defend the

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Christians and defend and stop these killings well, uh, after Trump got out of office, the first thing

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Biden did was remove Nigeria from the terror watch list. And they say that, uh, there's really not, you know, they, they will just kind of look the other way.

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The United States government does it. So as a Nigerian government, just look the other way and pretend this stuff doesn't happen. So is this a discrimination of sorts?

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Is this purposeful that the government won't come in and defend these villages? Yes, it is because, because currently it's a

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Muslim controlled regime. It's a Muslim controlled regime and they will look the other way when innocent

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Christians are being killed. That's so disheartening and frustrating at the same time.

07:19

Um, man, tell me about your efforts over there though. I know you've provided supplies to these villages as much as you can to help prevent, or at least reduce the number of deaths.

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Have you seen success with this? Oh yeah, we've, we've definitely seen success in our efforts, uh, in training, uh, village security teams on medical trauma response.

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Uh, basic security awareness, intelligence gathering, where they are able to learn how to gather intelligence and get information in case there's a coming attack in the village that they can warn people and try to get as many people out as possible and also create maybe a first line of defense, uh, when attacks do occur so they can save more lives.

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And we've had many, many reports from the people we've trained that our training has been very effective and has saved probably well over a thousand lives.

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Um, uh, for the ones that we've been able to train, we're trying to ramp up our efforts in doing that.

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Uh, but the other part of our mission is, is not just preventative, but we also respond and help people who have been attacked and we try to respond as quickly as, as we can, we try to do it within 48 hours, but depending on the security situation on the ground, it has to be safe for our team to go to that area to help them out and that's giving them food, medicine, we send doctors, uh, antibiotics, sleeping mats, because what happens is after an attack,

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I mean, literally everything they owned is now destroyed your house, everything you owned is gone and the only thing you have left is what you ran away with on your back and that's it.

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Um, and then in certain situations, which, uh, you can show a couple of pictures, uh, in a little bit here.

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Uh, we find people that have been wounded, uh, that need treatment and they can't afford their medical bills.

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Uh, and that's in most cases, the severely wounded, they can't afford to pay medical bills. No one is treating them for free.

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The Nigerian government or hospitals, they're not covering any of their medical costs. These people then have to pull what little they have left to try to get surgeries to recover from their wounds.

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Um, one of them in the case, uh, is a gal who was eight months pregnant. She was attacked, uh, by machetes, uh, lost her baby and she's now fighting for her life and hospital wouldn't operate until they had money.

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Is that this, uh, individual here? Uh, no, this is, uh, this is

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Abigail Moses. Um, she was from the same, it was from the same attack, same village.

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Um, she was, she lost, um, uh, the movement completely in her right arm.

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Obviously she had multiple cuts with machetes on her neck and, and all the way down her arm. And, uh, so her, her, her arm is now useless and can't, uh, function again, but we help pay for her surgery as well to help her recover.

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Um, that's where your money's going. When you donate to a grouping, the persecuted, it's going to help people like this, who, uh, who, who have been persecuted for their faith.

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Yeah. And, and, you know, and what you're seeing there is scrolling through pictures. I mean, this is, this is what happens in these attacks.

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You have time to properly bury people. They literally had to like, they had enough time to bury shallow grave and bury them right where they were killed and leave because the enemy was coming back.

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The Muslim, uh, the Muslims are coming back to fully take over the village and they had to bury him right where they were killed and didn't even have proper time for ceremony or burial for these guys.

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That's so sad. Um, can I, all right. So obviously I'm a guy interviewing you and maybe it would be different if I wasn't, but I got to ask the question.

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Uh, we have a second amendment in the United States and most state constitutions have similar language that under certain circumstances will allow you to carry a firearm, defend yourself.

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Is there anything equivalent to that in Nigeria? No. So they can't have firearms. That well, uh, the terrorists can have firearms and it seems like they don't get prosecuted for having firearms, but the innocent and the civilians in their villages, if they got caught with a firearm, they actually get prosecuted.

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So here's one of the things, um, we're going to be talking about this. I might bring up this exact scenario, uh, next week.

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I'm gonna do a live stream on a book by Pierre Baret on, um, government and the church or Christians and government.

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And, um, this is a good question to start asking when, as things progress in our own or regress in our own, uh, society.

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At what point, and I don't expect you to weigh on this unless you want to judge, but at what point do you say, you know, we have a responsibility to protect our families and our communities and our church.

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And if the government's not going to do it, then we need something. We need a lesser magistrate here.

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We need an organization that's going to do this. And, and you know, if, if maybe pull resources to, to pay lawyers fees, if we get prosecuted or something.

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I don't know, but it, it frustrates me. And I understand these Christians probably just want to Romans 13, right?

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In their minds. That's what they think they're doing. Submit to the government, follow the rules. But this is what happens when the government is stacked up against you.

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The rules are not being followed and it's preventing husbands and fathers from fulfilling their own responsibilities to protect their family.

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I don't know what you think about that, Judd. I mean, it's you have a biblical right to defend yourself.

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You have a right to defend your family. This is, this is, this is a, you know, for some reason, this was not a foreign concept until a few hundred years ago where Christians have a right to defend themselves.

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A man has a right to protect his family. But like I said, Nigeria and other places, some very terrible pietistic doctrine got into some of these churches and emasculated many

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Christian men where they thought it's a sin to defend themselves and defend their family. They took the heretical

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John Piper approach to this. Yes. I dropped his name because I think it's silly and stupid to have this naive, passive, emasculated

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Christianity where a man can't protect his family. It's a fundamental right in the United States to defend yourself.

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And if you look at every other country that doesn't have, that doesn't allow the ability for its citizens to defend themselves, look at what's happening.

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Look at what's happening all over the world where people can't defend themselves. You have an oppressive government, but if you have an oppressive government that's not following the rules, well, other people who are more violent and a little more, uh, just, you know, let's say, uh, mafia oriented, like, like the radical

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Islamic terrorists, the government's now afraid of those guys. And they won't come after them because those guys have more guns and are meaner than the

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Nigerian government. It sounds like the Mexican drug cartel problem.

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Exactly. Sounds like pretty similar to it. Um, all right. So you're not just providing supplies, which, which is good.

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You know, that needs to happen, but you're also providing some, uh, teaching. I know I've seen clips of, um, like pastor

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Sam, who, who I know and, and others, uh, that are connected to you have gone over there and are you trying to dispel this pietism and get them to understand their responsibilities?

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Yeah. We're trying to dispel the pietism and we're trying to teach them a masculine biblical Christianity and encourage them, encouraging them to be involved in their civil government, have, does

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Jesus rule just a little part of your life, your private life, or is Jesus supposed to rule over all of your life?

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That's your politics, that's your job, that's everything you do. And we're also encouraging pastors to, if there's somebody in their congregation that is, is called to politics and is, you know, has a calling and has a passion to get in the political process, well, the best thing for a pastor to do is become a mentor to that person, to give them spiritual guidance and not kick them out of the church and pretend that politics is evil and let that guy go into politics and suffer to his own devices.

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We're teaching Christians and pastors to be engaged, to have

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Jesus rule every, over every aspect of your life, including your politics, including your families, and we've had so many pastors come up to us in tears because they were taught that even engaging in politics was a sin, that talking about politics was a sin.

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That's insane. That's just insane. And, and, and, and just because, and we're teaching them, no, it's okay. They were in tears because they've always been conflicted inside it and didn't make sense to them.

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Where, like, I don't know, you probably don't know the full history, but where in the world is it? The first missionaries who went to Nigeria or the,

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I'd say the missionaries in the last, you know, 400 years or so, were they pietist and that just got ingrained or like, where did this come from?

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Yeah. It's a very, yeah. It's, it's, it's pietist doctrine. Yeah. Right. I'm just wondering what denomination are the people or are they any denomination?

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Is it just kind of evangelical Lutherans and Baptists? Oh, Lutherans. Okay. That might make sense then there's certain sectors of Lutheran Baptist and, and then various other forms of different denominations that came in.

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Uh, and that's, that's really where a lot of that came in and started. Yeah. And then, and then you have the other problem in Nigeria, which is the hyper prosperity, uh, nutty, uh,

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I call it the kooky charismatic side of things. Where, you know, it's, it's just all about health, wealth, prosperity, and talking about anything negative must be sinful because it's negative.

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We have to correct that doctrine too. It's, it's, it's a whirlwind of, of chaos.

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As far as doctrines go, we have it same here in the U S but there, it's a little more on the extremes of both sides.

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It's interesting to me. You hear a lot of the times the global South is, um, there's more

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Christians and I don't doubt that there might be, and it is, it might be growing at faster rates and all of that.

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But I have wondered at times, well, what kind of Christianity is, are we talking about here?

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Is it the many hidden variety of Christianity? Uh, where it's, you're telling these impoverished people that they can be rich, like, like him.

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And, uh, it's, you know, and I'm not accusing these people of not being Christians necessarily. I'm just saying that they're, um, there's just a lot of bad teaching.

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And so it's good that you're over there trying to correct some of this and, and that you're, you're experiencing success.

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Um, I know at some point I'd love to go over there and, and just see what's happening. Um, we'd love to have you.

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Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I mean, it, my wife might worry a little bit with everything that's happening in the news, but you know, it's, these are my brothers and sisters, that's kind of how

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I feel about it when I read an article like that in Christ and, um,

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I'm not saying I'm not, I don't have this guilt thing, right. That a lot of the more social justice minded people do that.

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Like, oh man, it's so terrible. I'm in prosperity in America or something. Like, I don't think that at all. I'm, I'm more like, I do have prosperity in America.

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So I have the ability to go and bless these people in ways that people in their own country can't.

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And that should not be taken for granted. And can I, can I, can I go on a quick rant?

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Yeah. Rant, please. Okay. So, um, more word has been getting out about our mission and what we're doing.

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And some of the biggest blowback I get are from the America first America first, while we messing around in other countries,

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America first, we have homeless veterans in America. Um, I, I actually get these comments quite a bit.

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And, um, I, I just want to address this because if some people are thinking this, just let me say this.

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Uh, there's over a thousand nonprofit organizations in the U S to help homeless veterans.

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And there might be about 20 ,000 homeless veterans in the U S. There's a thousand organizations to help veterans in the

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United States. There's about 20 ,000, uh, homeless veterans for, for various reasons.

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Um, there's a safety net here in the United States. There's a real safety net.

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If somebody gets sick, if somebody has an emergency, there's an ambulance that's going to eventually pick them up and take them to the hospital.

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If something bad happens, if there's a break in there's robberies, majority of the time in the

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U S we can count on police responding at some point in time. The poorest, the poverty line in America is somebody that makes, uh,

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I think around 18 ,000 a year, somewhere around there, the poorest in Nigeria, their poverty line is somebody that makes $50 a month.

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Wow. A good job in Nigeria is somebody that makes $100 a month.

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That's a good job. That's a job that people strive for. Somebody that makes 100 equivalent to 100 us dollars a month.

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Uh, there is no safety net in Nigeria. There is no, there is no rescue efforts.

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If somebody gets sick, if somebody gets hurt, there's no ambulance to pick them up. It's usually their friends and fellow villagers that throw them into a car and try to take them to a hospital, uh, where, uh, if you don't pay up front, they don't help you.

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There is no safety net. There's there's, there's nothing. Uh, so when people say America first America first, uh, they really have no idea how privileged they are.

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And yes, I'm using the word privilege because we in America are privileged and a lot of people that haven't left this country and seeing the other parts of the world have no idea how lucky they really are.

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Yeah. Well said, well said. Uh, couldn't agree more. Um, and obviously we do want to be mindful of those in our proximity to us around us who are in need and help our neighbors, but, uh, your local church.

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I think I've said this before is the first place to give your donations, give your money, but it doesn't mean that we can't also help people on the other side of the world.

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I mean, churches did this for Paul. He wasn't even at their local church and they would supply needs and so forth.

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So it's, um, yeah, that's, that's kind of disheartening that there's people who would try to, like,

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I guess the assumption to judge here is that like, there's this big pool of money sitting around and we have the option of putting it somewhere.

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And that's just not the case. There isn't a big pool of money sitting around. It's people voluntarily given. It's not like if they didn't give to you, they would surely give to a veterans organization.

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Who knows? They might spend it on a boat. Not that that's even wrong, but it doesn't, it doesn't mean that like, uh, that, that this money is just sitting there.

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Wait, that's actually kind of like a big government way of looking at it in my mind. It's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a socialist way of looking at it.

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It is a socialist way of looking at it. Yeah. And it's, and it's totally wrong. And people like we're privately funded.

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If you are called and it's laid on your heart to donate to our mission, we encourage it. Bingo. Yeah. Okay. But if, if you're called and you, you know, you feel a calling to give to whatever the

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Lord calls you to give to go do it. Yeah. Yeah. You're not guilting anyone. You're just saying this is a need.

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And if you feel the Lord wants you to help meet it, then it's, it's not a, you know, the thing is it's everyone puts things into an either or scenario things.

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It's like, and, and one thing I want to address is and say is that we as Christians are called to help our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that are in need first,

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Jesus said there will always be poor, but there are many scriptures in the Bible that tell us that we need to take care of the widows and orphans within our church, within our churches, within our own.

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If we can't take care of our own that are suffering, how are we going to, how are we going to help the rest of the world and what kind of example are we showing to the world if we're not taking care of those in need that are within our own body?

23:51

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Good, no, good point. And totally agree. You know, my church,

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I live in an area that, I mean, it's fairly affluent. There's a lot of people from New York city who live in my area.

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They commute, so they don't have a lot of time, but they do have money. Many of them, because they're, they're living in a cheaper area out in,

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I guess I'm in a suburb now. It wasn't that way growing up, but now we're in range of New York city commuters. And, um, you know, that to me,

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I look at my church and I think there, I'm, I know that there are needs, right.

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But it's not, it's nothing like what's happening in Nigeria. And it, when, when we're taking care of our own already, that, that gives us the flexibility to then say, okay, like where else can we invest our finances?

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And so, um, I would just encourage Christians listening to this, to consider that themselves.

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If you feel, if you look at the needs around you and you think, you know, things are pretty, we're pretty much taking care of it.

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The Lord's blessed us. Then what can you then take and bless to others? And I'm not guilting anyone.

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I'm not saying you can't buy a boat. If you think that the Lord wants you to buy a boat for your family or what, not saying that's a sin or evil or anything.

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I'm not David Platt here, you know, trying to guilt you or anything, but, uh, but you know, the,

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I think this, this works through the spirit of the Lord, working on your heart, hearing a podcast like this, getting the information.

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And then what is, does that resonate with you? Is the Lord doing something in your heart? And, uh, so you can go to equipping the persecuted .com

25:20

or you org .org, right? Sorry. Moving the persecuted .org.

25:25

Uh, you're also on Facebook equipping the persecuted. Uh, I don't know where else you, you are, but, um, other social media links as well,

25:33

I'm assuming are on the website. Yeah. You can look my name up Judd Saul on Twitter. Yeah.

25:38

So, so go find Judd Saul on Twitter and you can find out more about this. Uh, any

25:44

Kevin Sorbo events coming up or is that all done? Um, nothing, nothing planned, nothing planned in the future.

25:52

We're we're, we're, I don't know how we're going to, we had a fundraiser. We had Kevin Sorbo come speak.

25:57

It was really great. Um, I don't know how we're going to top that off next year. Perhaps we bring John Harris, which is more of a draw, more of a draw than, than Hercules himself.

26:08

Yeah. Uh, no, that would be, uh, you know, yeah, that'd be great.

26:13

I think I'd, I'd want to go see, see what you're doing firsthand in Nigeria. I'd be more equipped to speak on it if that happened.

26:19

But, um, anyway, I just want to encourage people, uh, Judd, keep, keep doing the good work, final question, and it's unrelated, but people know you from enemies within the church, uh, still selling

26:29

DVDs still every day. Yeah. Every day impact every day.

26:34

It's making an impact. New people are finding out about the information. Um, it, it, it went grassroots viral, you know, big

26:41

Eva, big Eva kind of, uh, put the kibosh on letting people know about our film, but the grassroots has embraced it and they love it.

26:49

Yeah. And, uh, we are in pre -production and planning part two right now.

26:55

That's awesome. Uh, I don't know if I told you that I was at an event, uh, on the Chinese communist party a few weeks ago, and I asked at the event, a question.

27:05

I asked why Christians in particular don't ever talk about the threat from the Chinese communist party.

27:10

It's, it's like forbidden in some places. I mean, many don't know this, but this, I think this is the case.

27:16

And. Uh, even conservative talk show hosts are fairly reluctant to talk about the, the, that threat.

27:22

So anyway, I just asked this question and one of the panelists at this event said, everyone here needs to go see enemies within the church.

27:30

You know, and I'm sitting there thinking like, I don't know if she recognized that I was in that film, but she was telling, and she says

27:37

Trevor Loudon is doing some great work. And apparently she was at the event at mid America. And she said,

27:42

I was at this event at this seminary and they wouldn't even let Trevor show it because the corruption is, she was just going on.

27:48

And I, I thought, wow, like, you know, I wasn't expecting it as a political event. I, so it's getting out there into areas that people didn't probably assume it would go in political conservatism and, um, and that's distilling and going to people in the pews as well.

28:05

Well, we've, we've had, we've had so many pastors reach out to us and say, after watching the film that they repent, they were wrong.

28:12

They were in the wrong direction and they're correcting those errors. Um, we know several, I mean,

28:18

I can't tell you the number. Um, I think well over a hundred churches since watching our film has left the

28:24

SBC. Wow. And, uh, many people have quit given to these

28:30

Christian organizations that they thought were solid that are now pushing the woke agenda. So the film may not have gotten mainstream success and, and, and everything else, but the people that have watched it, it has affected them and it has made some changes and that's all we were looking to do when we made it.

28:48

I'm sure conservative Baptist network and others trying to do it, be an influence in the

28:53

SBC are thrilled at that. But, you know, to be honest, and I've said this for a while now, they're like,

28:59

I don't see any other, really, if you're a local church, you're considering your options and do you want to go every year, spend all the money, spend all the time, get a migraine, uh, at an annual meeting where you lose everything, or do you want to like leave and be separate from that group?

29:14

Like, it's pretty much a no brainer in my mind. And I know that makes some people mad out there, but, um, we, we see this year after year after year and the more churches that keep leaving, the, the less likely the

29:26

SBC is to return to any kind of orthodoxy and, uh, and so speeding up the process,

29:32

I was just gonna say what you're doing, speeding up the process of that happening is probably good because the sooner that if this is the way it's going to go, right.

29:39

The sooner people are out, the sooner that that whole machine dies. So, right. And then, and then, and then on a personal level, what is your church funding or what, what, where, where are you giving your money?

29:50

Are you giving your money to an organization that's actually promoting the gospel, spreading the gospel, or are they promoting now a woke false gospel agenda?

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And how can you in good conscience, because you had some nostalgic feeling about it, continue to fund what it has become.

30:08

And a lot of pastors, a lot of churches and, and people donating these organizations have come to the realization that it's not what it used to be 20 years ago.

30:17

And so they stopped. And, um, like I said, we made the movie to hopefully wake up people and make a change.

30:23

And, you know, uh, the Lord carried us through the whole way, through the whole process and, uh, we were obedient.

30:30

People told us to give up many times. Why are you doing this? You shouldn't do this. You should do this. You're being divisive.

30:36

Uh, but, um, we kept it. We stayed in obedience. We made it and it's having an effect, a positive effect.

30:44

Yeah, no praise God for that, brother. Well, uh, you can go to equipment, the persecuted .com. Look up the equipment persecuted on Facebook.