The 33,000 Protestant Denominations Lie

Having lots to cover today, I want to start off by noting I sent an email through the website at Catholic Answers last evening to let Tim Staples know that I was going to be talking about this at the beginning of the program today, so I don't want to put anything else in the way.

The 33,000 Denominations Claim and Its Origins

I would like to address the fact that back in 2007, August of 2007, in fact, I posted a fairly lengthy discussion of the constant falsehood that Roman Catholic apologists in particular are fond of repeating, and that is the 33 ,000 denominations remark.

You may recall my comments were primarily focused on Steve Ray, who uses this all the time. His response was infantile and childish and beneath most of adult conversation. But I sort of wondered if maybe, just maybe finally, Catholic apologists would break out of this shell they live in, where they don't listen to what anybody says in response to them, they just keep repeating the same things over and over again, and recognize that it might be a good idea to stop repeating that particular falsehood, that particular error.

And yet, just a few days ago, right, the last program of 2008, there was a phone call to Catholic Answers Live, and Tim Staples was on. Let's take a listen. Thank you very much. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're not going to be able to hear that very well, huh?

Thank you for potting that down so everybody's ears are not bleeding. Let's make it so people can hear it well this time.

Well, thank you very much. I was talking to one of my ex-Catholic, anti-Catholic Protestant friends about the falsehood of sola scriptura, and I brought up the fact that relativism is so insidious in our society now that there's over 35 or 40 ,000 Protestant denominations, and he laughed and said, gee, there's only about 500.

I said that, well, that's bad enough. Right. But now I need a reference. Right.

Okay, gotcha. Well, a good place to go. Now, here would be Tim's opportunity to say, well, you know, we've always made reference to this one source, but actually when you look at it, it doesn't say that there are 33 ,000 Protestant denominations due to sola scriptura or anything else at all, and we have to, you know, treat this information fairly.

We have to be careful in our use of this. This would be the time to say it, but is that what Catholic apologists do?

...to go is the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia. It's actually called the Oxford No, it's not that either. Not the Oxford. It's called the World Christian Encyclopedia, but it's published by Oxford, so you often hear it referred to as the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia.

There was an edition that came out in 1983, and then there's an updated edition that came out in 2001 that chronicles and lists a number of them, but 33 ,820, I believe, denominations there. Yeah. Give or take.

Another day comes along, another few churches, right? That's right. And it also, you know, it identifies about 10 ,000 distinct religions, so it's more than just talking about Christianity, but it kind of gives you an overview of the world's religions and such, and then, of course, Christianity, it breaks down into the various denominations.

All right?

Now, you know, you would think that he might provide some information to his caller, but that's not really what Catholic apologists have been into. I'm going to go back over what I wrote in August of 2007.

There are people who are new to the program, maybe they don't read the archives of the blog, who has time for that anyways, they're not algo, and so they don't remember when I wrote this, what I was wearing when I wrote this, et cetera, et cetera.

And I went back, I took time to grab hold of a number of citations to demonstrate that I wasn't just making this up. This is something that Catholic apologists claim all the time. For example, Alcresta, in Surprised by Truth, page 266, this would have been the first volume, I wondered how Protestantism, which has splintered into over 20 ,000 denominations worldwide, could be what Jesus had in mind in John 17, 21, when he said that the world will know that the Father sent the Son by the unity of his disciples.

So there you have 20 ,000, this is back in the 90s. Then, 1998, Catholic Answers, and by the way, if you want to go to the August 22, 2007 blog entry, there are links here to go to each of these references if you want to check them out.

Unlike our opponents, we do check these things out ourselves. The one thing they reject, though, is any binding authority outside the Bible. As a result, each time a new survey of Christian denominations comes out, there is more division, not less.

Today, there are more than 26 ,000 different denominations, sects, and independent churches throughout the world. They have split over issues as central as the Lord's Supper and as trivial as what musical instruments may be used at church.

Each Christian Bible in hand must find his own Christian truths. He may choose to rely on the teachings of his local pastor, a television evangelist, or the formal teachings of his denomination, but he is not bound by any of these teachings.

There's ultimately no binding doctrinal authority in his life outside of his personal interpretations of Scripture, that is, Sola Scriptura. Notice how the number is increasing, 22 ,000, 20 ,000, now 26 ,000.

Of course, Tim Staples has been really big in this particular statistical argument, for example. But isn't it also telling that since the Reformation just 480 years ago, a Reformation claiming Sola Scriptura as its formal principle, there are now over 26 ,000 denominations that have derived from that principle.

The 1982 World Christian Encyclopedia projected in that year that there would be 22 ,190 denominations by 1985. The present net increase, it noted, is 270 denominations each year, five new ones a week.

If we extend that projection to our time, we'll have well over 26 ,000 denominations by now. Then we have Envoy Magazine, and again the source that they are quoting, World Christian Encyclopedia, the current edition of which is from 2001.

Here Staples directly cited the source in writing, we just listened to him cite it, what, a week ago on Catholic Answers Live. Here from Envoy Magazine, also from Tim Staples, according to Scripture, the Church is the final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith, morals, and discipline.

It is telling that since the Reformation of almost 500 years ago, a Reformation claiming Sola Scriptura as its formal principle, there are now over 33 ,000 Protestant denominations. In John 10, 16, Jesus prophesied there would be one flock, one shepherd.

Reliance on Sola Scriptura has not been effective in establishing doctrine or authority. So note the argument and the use of this source is consistently related to Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is responsible for all these denominations.

What the Source Actually Says About Denominations

Now, before I read some more, what then, logically, fairly, for people who have any concern about truth at all, what would be necessary for us to find in this source? Well, it would be necessary to find that these are Protestant dominations, they are all traceable to the Protestant Reformation, and that these groups all practice Sola Scriptura.

And that this is why they've divided this way. That's what we should find when we go there. And that's, you know, that's the question. Is that what we will find? Now, Steve Ray. As I mentioned, it's more and more difficult for me to include Steve Ray in the list of Catholic apologists, because it's just very difficult to take him seriously enough to even call him an apologist.

But in his response on the Assumption back in 2007, he wrote, Our source of authority is not the Bible alone. We can thank God and the Catholic Church for that. Just look at the mass confusion this invented doctrine of Sola Scriptura has inflicted upon Protestants as they've split and scattered into over 33 ,000 different competing groups with biblical interpretations that go all over the map.

And then he gives as reference, World Christian Encyclopedia, Oxford University Press, 2001, page 10. By the way, I was looking for a copy of that. The only one in used format was $750. So, that's why it's not in my library.

Yeah, everybody can grab hold of that one. Sure, yeah, $750, we've all got that laying around. So, please note, Ray gives the direct reference, even the page number to which he refers. Now, once you start giving page numbers, I say you're accountable for what's on that page.

Okay? You need to know that, you know? He is directly asserting the 33 ,000 number is about Protestants only. If that number was about non-Protestants, then these arguments would sort of lose their weight, wouldn't they?

He blames Sola Scriptura for that number. Note some more words from Steve Ray. Now what? Who knows? Tomorrow they may split again and make the first New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church in the second.

And then it will probably split again in the newest First New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church or the Holy First New Progressive Missionary Baptist Church. And then we will add multiple sects to that already 33 ,000 Protestant denominations.

So what does he say? That this source, if you go to this particular source, if you go to the World Christian Encyclopedia, go to page 10, they will list 33 ,000 Protestant denominations. That's what we are told.

Steve Ray then said to Kevin Johnson, around that same period of time, thanks for sharing your name. It was not on the post. I wish I had time to dialogue, but unfortunately I am swamped and not able to take on detailed debates.

Back in the old days I had plenty of time, but such is not the case now. Well, yeah, when you are dragging old people around Israel all the time, you are quite busy. I hope others jump in to dialogue with you.

One of the problems I face, Kevin, is that you are one of 33 ,000 denominations that have sprouted out of the Reformation and to take the time to understand the various details that each of you hold with a multitude of beliefs and traditions would be impossible.

Why the 33,000 Figure Is a Misuse of the Encyclopedia

So, Ray keeps saying it's 33 ,000 Protestant denominations due to Sola Scriptura, all from the World Christian Encyclopedia, and etc., etc. So, the first thing to point out, obviously, the first error that these men are making is an error of simple logic.

How does the Roman Catholic Apologist go about demonstrating that Sola Scriptura is the source of these divisions specifically? I mean, do they really document this? When we see division in the ranks of Rome, we see strong disagreement on key issues.

May I remind all you American Catholics, 54 of your people in the United States voted for the most pro-abortion, pro-homosexuality presidential candidate ever put forward to the people of the United States of America.

Don't talk to me about your unity. You've got people running around promoting everything under the name of Rome. Until you clean up your own backyard, don't talk to us about unity. It's a lie, and everybody knows it.

Get real. I mean, I think the only reason you keep repeating it is so you're trying to convince yourself because you know it's not true. So, there's all sorts of these strong disagreements. Does it follow that the Roman Magisterium is insufficient?

Well, they don't go there, but logically, if they're going to make the argument that differences amongst Protestants are due to Sola Scriptura, they would logically have to go there. They would logically have to be able to demonstrate that it's not due to, well, the acceptance of maybe new scriptures or traditions of men or all sorts of things like that that have resulted in divisions, which, of course, is the vast majority of the reason why there are divisions amongst Protestants.

It's not because they hold the scripture, but because they depart from scripture. It's not because they practice Sola Scriptura. It's because they ignore Sola Scriptura. And so, it is a simple error in logic that we need to be able to explain to our Roman Catholic friends that this attack, no matter how popular it is with Tim Staples or Patrick Madrid or anybody else, you know, Blueprint for Anarchy and so on and so forth, that is simply not a logical direction.

But, to get to the main issue, because I do want to go on to other things today. The fact of the matter is to claim that this source teaches what they say is a lie. L-I-E. It is dishonest. It would be like me citing the Catholic Catechism and saying the Catholic Catechism says that you should all bow down and worship the Pope as God.

Page 472. Then you go to page 472 and it says nothing of the kind. That means it's a lie. And that's exactly what Tim Staples and Patrick Madrid and Steve Ray, all these people who keep repeating this number are lying to you.

It's not that, I mean, Eric Svensson pointed this out a long time ago on The Slippery Rock. I've put it on my blog. The information's out there. You can look at the very scans of the pages yourself and see.

For if you go to page 10, the very source cited by Steve Ray and the others, you'll read global Christianity had, and then there's two numbers given. The first number is from 1970, the second from the year 2000.

I'll just give you the 2000 numbers. 33 ,820 denominations slash paradenominations with 3 ,445 ,000 congregations slash churches composed of 1 ,888 ,000 ,000 affiliated Christians dichotomized into the two global categories below.

And those two global categorizations are denominationalism and post-denominationalism. So what you need to recognize if you'll read the source is that the 33 ,820 number used by Ray, Staples, other Roman Catholic apologists combines all denominations included in both lists.

But if they would just do a little more reading, they would have discovered that this is not a listing of denominations arising from the Protestant Reformation. Though again, for clarity, I note that it is exactly the claim of Steve Ray.

21 ,990 of these denominations are in the post-denominationalism category, 11 ,830 in the denominational. And please realize the denominational number includes Roman Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants.

In fact, amazingly, this source lists 242 Roman Catholic denominations. So the next time one of these guys decides they're going to throw this out and misrepresent it, say, oh, so you accept that there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations, right?

What do you mean? The same source lists 242 Roman Catholic denominations. If you are going to use this source, then you must admit there are 242 Roman Catholic denominations. Oh, but we're all one. Well, then you better stop using this source.

What do you think? Hmm, okay. Now, if these ever-so-careful researchers had bothered to read on to page 16, they would have discovered that this source lists 781 Orthodox denominations, that is, Eastern Orthodoxy, predicting 887 for 2025, and 242 Roman Catholic denominations predicting 245 for 2025.

Did either of these groups arise out of the Reformation as Steve Ray claims? Well, of course not. Instead, continuing on page 16, the overarching group Protestant is listed as having 8 ,973 denominations in 2000, predicting 9 ,490 by 2025.

If we stop right there, that means Steve Ray and Tim Staples are off by 24 ,000 denominations in their off-repeated claims, that is, the actual number in the source is only 27 of the number they give.

And you know how they respond to that? Well, that's still too much! I mean, talk about politicians! Okay, you caught me lying, but that number is still too big! That's what these guys do! It's absolutely incredible!

They are inflating the number by more than 300 Why? Are they going on second-hand references if they just not looked it up themselves? Are they being dishonest? They just don't care about the factuality of their statements?

We don't know, because they won't answer these questions. But that's not even the entire picture, folks. As you begin to look through what this source lists as Protestant denominations, you discover that they include non-Trinitarian groups such as the Oneness denominations, as well as other groups like the Seventh-day Adventists.

Some of the other denominations listed openly embrace Revelation in the modern period, hence meaning that they would hardly hold any meaningful doctrine or soul scripture to begin with. After the Protestant groups, you have independent groups, followed by marginal Christian groups, but all of these are added in the 33 ,820 number.

However, please realize this includes Gnostics, Mormons, 122 denominations worth, and Jehovah's Witnesses, 228 denominations worth. Oh yeah, the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are due to Sola Scriptura.

Right. So, you really have to ask the question, have these guys ever even looked this stuff up? Or did one person look it up, grabbed a few numbers out, ignored everything else, and now they're just repeating it over and over and over again?

And they know that their audience isn't going to know, they're not going to check them out, they're not going to look, and so they can get away with this dishonesty and not even worry about it. That's the question.

A Challenge to Tim Staples and Roman Catholic Apologists

And I really have to wonder, like I said, I wrote to Tim Staples and he may not be in the office today. I would be happy. I'm saying right now, Mr. Staples, if you want to come on the dividing line and defend the 33 ,000 denominations number against the actual facts that you present in Catholic Answers Live, we will be glad to have you as our guest.

We will open it up to you. Let us know what you want to be on. Or you can come on to say, you know what, I was wrong. I am in error. I will never use the 33 ,000 denominations number again. And I will let people know on Catholic Answers Live that I've been wrong about that all along.

That would be an even better thing. That would be wonderful. It's up to Mr. Staples. Lines are open. 877 -753 -3341. So if Mr. Staples would like to call, 877 -753 -3341. Be happy. I would like to hear a defense of how many times Tim Staples has gone into print in multiple sources and on the Catholic Answers Live radio program and in seminars all across the world and has misled every single person you ever said it to.

I would like to know how you defend that. So, I really wonder also if, aside from the fact that very clearly the divisions noted in the source are not due to solo scriptura, unless you're going to argue, yeah, well, if you all just follow the Pope, there would only be one church, see?

There are people that actually think that's how it should work. But do they also note the next page in the source that they are so dependent upon? Page 11. There's a chart there relating, in fact, I provided the chart in one of the other blog entries.

I scanned it. PDF. We find a chart relating to martyrs during the history of Christendom. And in that, in the second section of the chart, it lists who was responsible for killing the martyrs down through the history of the world.

Secular governments and atheists score real big thanks to the Soviet Union, obviously. With 55 ,597 ,000 and 31 ,519 ,000 respectively. The Muslims are high performers on the martyr production scale as well with 9 ,101 ,000 to their credit.

Animists come in fourth with 7 ,469 ,000 and guess who is number five on the martyr-producing hit parade? Yep. The Roman Catholic Church with 4 ,951 ,000 martyrs to her credit. I wonder if Tim Staples and Steve Ray quote that statistic, which is on the very next page of the source that they use as a bat to beat Protestants over the head with quite regularly.

Hmm. Probably not. 877 -753 -3341 is a toll-free number and right now it's the only word I see on my screen is idle, which means there's nobody there. The phone's working? The phone's working? Yeah, you're sure about that?

Let's find out. You want to bring that one up? Gotta make sure you've got the dial tone there. Yep, it's working. That's the dial tone. Yep. Nobody calling. Well, there you go. I once again call on Roman Catholics.

I call on the honest Roman Catholics. You know, sometimes we have honest Roman Catholics come into our chat channel and we chat with them about things. I call upon you to contact these men and to beg them to stop giving us a black eye.

Stop demonstrating that you don't do your homework. You don't listen to what anybody else says. That as long as it can be used in defense of Mama Rome, you will use anything no matter how badly out of context you're taking it.

Stop doing it. Please, you're embarrassing us. I'd like to ask you to contact them and see what they say. See if they respond like Steve Ray. Because Steve Ray's response to this reputation was infantile.

Infantile. There's no way to describe it. How will Tim Staples respond? I don't know. It's been, you know, it was August of 2007. It's been a year and a half. Does he even know about it? Probably not.

I doubt, I doubt. Again, my experience has been these folks don't care about what other people are saying. They're doing their thing, they're doing their, you know, they're taking their, doing their conferences, and who cares?

As long as my audience is happy and given, that's life. So, we'll keep the phones open, but, you know, who knows what we'll hear from anybody.