RLL 27: Allan Wall on Immigration, William Saletan and Soros Evangelicals

You're listening to Radio Luke's Lucid. I'm your host Steve Matthews. Thanks for joining me today for episode 27 today. I have a special guest with me Alan Wall Alan. Welcome to the program. Well, thank you very much Steve.

It's a great opportunity to be on your show here and it's a great honor to have you here for me. You know Alan I've it's kind of funny. I'm talking to you here today for the first time. But I followed your work for years.

I almost feel like I know you a little bit just from from having read so much of your work over the years. I've been reading you since you were doing the memo from Mexico column. And oh, right, yeah, it goes back a ways.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that goes back a ways and you know I've long thought that you're one of the very finest writers out there on the subject of immigration and you wrote a piece a couple weeks ago that was posted on VDare .com and we're gonna get and we're gonna want to talk about That in a minute that piece just really knocked me out and I said, well, I've got to get Alan Wall on the line here.

So I really thank you so much for joining me here today. But you know before we dive into talking about your article in particular I wanted you to give a little sense of your background to the listeners because I think it's a very interesting background and I think it may be of some context to To why you're such a an effective writer on the subject of immigration.

Living in Mexico and Seeing Immigration from the Other Side

Well, yes, I the main thing I guess I want to emphasize is that that I lived in Mexico for many years a Decade and a half. I was working there as an English teacher. And so I I lived in the society, you know, I was not a tourist.

I lived there. I I spoke the language I Followed the media and I you know, I worked in Mexican schools I attended Mexican churches and I associated with you know, people of different social levels. I Was able to visit different parts of the country and my wife is Mexican.

I met my wife there and we were married and and so, you know, I also have Mexican in-laws so I Ten years ago. We had the opportunity to move to the United States for a particular job opportunity That was convenient for us.

So I brought my family here and But we frequently visit Mexico. I like to go there Every year and I like to keep up with what's going on and I you know, I love the people I love the society and I'm I'm very comfortable there.

Okay, sure here and and I know one of the the features that you you write quite a bit is I think it's called said In Spanish am I correct about that? Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, because of course being fluent in Spanish and you're familiar with the the Mexican media.

Yeah. I think that's a great service for people who are interested in in immigration because most of us don't have access to that the way. That you do and I think that's a very helpful service that you provide.

One thing I didn't want to ask you to Alan is what is it that got you you interested in writing about immigration?

Well, really the answer to that question is related to the first question Living in Mexico. It was a real Education because I was able to see immigration from the other side. Now in the United States, there's this very romanticized vision of immigration.

You know, it isn't it wonderful they all want to come here they they're looking for freedom, you know, they want to become Americans and Americans feel a sort of pride that people would want to live in their country and.

But when I lived in Mexico, you know, it gradually dawned on me, you know, that's not how the people here see it in Mexico because Obviously many Mexicans expressed the desire to move to the United States.

But I never heard them say they were looking for freedom and they did not say they were doing it to become Americans. They do it for the money. I you know, that's totally understandable. They can make more money in the United States and.

But but here's what's amazing, too even when they become American citizens, they are still regarded as Mexicans and Mexicans look at Mexican Americans, even Mexican Americans who were born in the United States as Essentially Mexicans and and we're not talking about a small group of people we're talking about millions of people right and it and then I saw how the whole society in Mexico supports illegal immigration and They and and I saw how the government is meddling in our political system.

You know all this hysteria about Russian meddling. Let's suppose. I don't really believe all that stuff. But let's suppose it's all true it is. Almost nothing compared to what Mexico is doing because what Mexico is doing is utilizing dual citizens to meddle in our politics.

You know 2016 election. They they did that. Yeah, it's just amazing. Yeah. Yeah, and you know Alan.

I think that you're saying that that's probably the first time a lot of people are hearing this.

Exactly because it used to be Mexico did not permit dual citizenship. Yeah, if I'm a Mexican became an American citizen, he's not a Mexican. In the 1990s, they changed it. Specifically to meddle in the United States and yet none of our politicians seem to care about that.

It's just amazing.

That is amazing. You're absolutely right. So yeah, I can definitely see why you know what you said and having lived in Mexico and seen things from the other side you know that that would would certainly be a strong impetus to begin, you know, writing and maybe perhaps educating and correcting some of the The fallacies that many Americans have about about immigration and in particular, you know immigration from Mexico.

That's right. And you know, and I think other Latin Americas other Latin American countries. You have you have similar ideas to though, you know, and now we have it. It's mostly Central America Is sending these immigrants but but I see in those countries kind of some similar dynamics in the society also as the government's are.

You know tacitly encouraging their people to leave rather than solve the problems in their own country. Sure. Sure. Okay.

William Saletan’s Slate Article and Why Evangelicals Should Care

Well Alan, yeah turning to the the article that you wrote This was a an article is published back on just a couple weeks ago back on December 26th on Vidar and the title of your pieces memo from Middle America st William Salatin says white evangelical Trump supporters are un-christian.

How would he know. And the the Article that you wrote about is as the title of your critique suggests the article that you were writing about as a piece By a gentleman named William Salatin, and I think I'm saying his name correctly as does that sound right to you Salatin?

I I've I believe I believe. You're correct. I've never really heard it pronounced, but I just assumed that that's how you pronounce it, right?

I tried to go with that. Okay, because I tried to find something on the internet the other day and I couldn't find anything that gave me any guide to that. Well, that sounds about right. So I'm gonna go with Salatin, but when Salatin he is.

He's a writer for slate magazine and and in the title of his piece this was the petite. The piece you critiqued is called Trump's Christian apologists are un-christian and. Maybe what I wanted to start out with Alan is just asking you, you know.

Most evangelicals probably don't read William Salatin. Most evangelicals probably don't read slate. So why should evangelicals really care what slate and what William Salatin have to say?

Well, yes from a Spiritual standpoint we don't care. In other words, it's not a source we would go to for spiritual sustenance. But in order to be informed about what is out there that's why you know, I thought it was worth Looking over the article because here this individual who is not even a Christian of any sort, you know does not claim to be a Christian.

Here he is holding forth and Explaining who is a good Christian and who is not a good Christian. Wow you know who appointed him the authority to do that and and what a coincidence to a Good Christian for William Salatin is somebody who is against President Trump.

Wow, what a coincidence. Amazing, isn't it?

Yeah, and you know, I think you said in your critique of the article I mean you called it a fiery Article I believe and boy that's that certainly is true. He really you know Salatin He really unloads on on evangelicals with both barrels as we would say.

Oh, yes. Yes.

Yeah, they call them wicked. Yeah and purveyors of wickedness, you know, yeah.

I think he did that twice who called them wicked or something like that. I think he used that term. Right article is it was really pretty shocking. You don't really expect to hear language like that. Maybe out of slate so much, but I guess in this case, I guess on the subject of immigration.

It really really brings out the The hellfire and brimstone in them or something. I don't know. Now one of the things that you pointed out In your article, you know, you mentioned Individuals you referred to as Soros evangelicals such as for instance Russell Moore.

Could you expand on what you mean by that?

Well Russell Moore, he's one example of this type of person. He's a high-ranking bureaucrat in the Southern Baptist Convention Head of the so-called Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, and of course, he's a big booster of amnesty for illegal aliens.

And but but what is really okay. Some people are for that. I understand but what is really bothersome is he makes it a a Christian doctrine issue. In other words, he says if you're not for Illegal aliens, you're a bad Christian, you know, if you're not for the demographic transformation of this country, etc You're a bad Christian.

So actually he's very you could call him Legalistic if you don't agree with him, you're not a good Christian, you know, that's that's the way he presents it.

Yeah, it's it's pretty shocking to read some of the statements. He's made over the year. I did been doing a little bit of research on the the evangelical immigration table. For example, and of course, I know that he has been I don't know if he currently is but know that he has been Associated with the evangelical immigration table and some of the statements that he makes.

You know, if if you I don't know if you cut and pasted his statements on to say, you know The website of the Open Society found a foundation or something. It wouldn't be out of place at all because he does sound just like George Soros or you know, somebody that supports George Soros.

Exactly and and there's a reason you know as many have pointed out that Russell Moore and some of these other groups they're getting George Soros money, you know, it might pass through several different organizations, but this money is being funneled to elitist evangelicals supporting amnesty mass immigration.

So and you got to ask yourself. Hey, why is George Soros, you know an atheist globalist billionaire? He wants to erase borders and construct a sort of new global order like the Tower of Babel. Hey, why is he giving money to these hundreds of thousands of dollars to evangelical Christians who?

Support open borders. It's kind of curious. You might want to ask that question. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think that's certainly cause to be wary of men, such as Russell Moore and Moving on in the in Salatin's article.

He.

Actually quotes at some length a gentleman by the name of Ed Stetzer Who's identified as the director of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College? And he uses the words of Ed Stetzer really to to castigate in particular white evangelicals for their support of Trump and In border control and you know apart from the influence of George Soros.

Why is it did you think that so many? Evangelical leaders are really so bad on the subject of immigration.

Why Evangelical Leaders Support Open Borders

Well, you know that that's a good question. I I got a few theories, but I'm it's probably a combination. I guess part of it is our. You know, our whole society is moved to the left including You know the academic world the military and all our elite institutions and the church leaders to some of them You know, they've been influenced by this left-wing soundbites and pop psychology and and all these these sort of emotional You know answers and and little easy answers that when you break them down, they really don't make that much sense and we might even speculate that they like the worldly acclaim that they receive from the mainstream media and Essentially what these people are doing.

Ed Stetzer, for example. He is bashing.

You know.

Middle American white evangelical middle-class. The evangelical Protestants he's bashing them, you know in in a secular venue.

Right. Yeah, that's pretty amazing the way he does it. Yeah. Yeah, you said that in fact you you cited this in your article.

You know.

You talked about the fact that he appeared on both NPR and on Fox and I think. Well one on the one on one day one on the next day or within a very short time frame. Yeah, right.

Yeah, you know.

Yeah, they find people like that, yeah, yeah exactly and of course I know and maybe you mentioned this in your article to of course Russell Moore, you know, he has written I believe several Editorials for the New York Times.

Oh, yes. He's their go-to evangelical, you know.

They don't really like evangelicals, but if they could find a guy like Russell Moore that they'll they'll play him up.

Yeah, yeah, he's he's useful to their cause now. Wanted to ask you your opinion on this. Do you think that? Evangelicals just. I'm talking about the rank-and-file ordinary evangelicals in the pews. Do you think that they're aware of the extent to which their spokesmen are at odds with their own views on immigration?

I.

Would say that probably not, you know most Rank-and-file evangelicals they probably aren't even aware of most of this kind of elitist Bureaucratic type stuff like like even it like the Southern Baptist Convention it's really.

The churches are autonomous, you know, the individual congregations are autonomous, but they have this this overarching bureaucracy, which is actually Seems to be more liberal than the rank-and-file church members.

I've suggested in a previous article They ought to just disband the whole Denomination because the the property of the local churches already belongs to the local churches. They don't really need that bureaucracy.

Okay, sure. And if I may ask you this, are you do you belong to the Southern Baptist Church? Are you with some other church?

Yeah, I'm not actually in the Southern Baptist Church, but I've I've always respected them. I don't know. They're they're very active in you know, large parts of the country and. But but I'm sorry to see people like Russell Moore representing them and in.

Denigrating, you know the rank-and-file members like he does. Yeah. Yeah, that's you know, it's you know, it's it's sad. How much.

The.

Sort of the political situation if you can call it that in in in the Southern Baptist Church mirrors what goes on in in society. Broadly, unfortunately, I mean you would expect exactly you would yeah.

You you would hope that that people in a position of leadership in the churches Would behave toward the people that support them In a more supportive way. But unfortunately, I just don't seem to be the case.

Yeah. No, no, it doesn't unfortunately. Now I want to move on to another point here that you brought up in your your article Salatin when he in his writing he he noted that surveys in surveys are religious voters that The numbers for evangelicals were quote bad and in by bad.

He meant that evangelicals strongly supported Donald Trump. I just wanted to get your perspective on those poll numbers. I think it might be a little different than Salatin's.

Evangelical Support for Trump and the 2016 Election

Yeah, well.

When he says it's bad I would think well that sounds pretty good, you know, he said, oh, it's terrible. 81 support Trump. I said wow, that's great. Well, maybe we could try to lift that up a little bit, but.

It's kind of funny, you know the way that works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean and of course the the assumptions that are contained in that, you know, the It's almost a sort of a begging of the question, you know, he he says they're bad.

Well, why is it bad? He doesn't really explain why that's bad other than just to say I guess he disagrees with it. Yeah, that's the bottom line. That is really the bottom line. Yeah. Yeah now Another question here for you.

Do you think that as Salatin charges that? Well, he he when he's talking about Evangelicals, he calls him white evangelical Protestants or weps, I guess and I think he admitted that yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so when when Salatin Charges that weps have compromised their moral principles by supporting Trump and retreated from moral judgment of him.

What what would you say to that?

Well, you know, I I can only speak for myself, but I don't I Don't approve. We know that Donald Trump is not perfect. I mean we knew that already. I don't approve of anything that he's done that that is not that is not moral or not good.

But that's not really the issue here. Is it I mean really in politics we have to choose between the imperfect You know candidates and and think about in a 2016 election really you got to look at the whole agenda and.

How could you even compare the Hillary agenda and the Trump agenda, right? And in religious freedom, which is a big issue for us, you know, wow, there's there's no contest there either.

Right exactly. And I have to admit, you know. It took me a while to come around to supporting Donald Trump because I wrestled with some of those issues.

And of course, yeah, there's a lot there. Yeah, there's a lot there to wrestle with.

Yeah, and you know, and I think sometimes when you know Salatin makes this blanket charge that you know Evangelicals have retreated from moral judgment of him. Somehow. He seems to say well, oh, yeah, you know evangelicals.

They approve of every single thing. He's ever said or every single thing he's ever done and I think you and I would both say Well, yeah, there are some things that he said and done that you know, I wish he had not said or done.

And and I don't have to defend all those things, you know, we don't we don't have to defend all of those things. But I think on certain big issues for instance immigration. Since we're talking about that I think that he was a whole lot closer to to being.

Where.

You know where as a Christian I would want him to be as compared to any of the other candidates that were running. Oh.

Yes. Yes.

And even you know the libertarian candidate. Some people saw him as a viable alternative. Gary Johnson, I call him the so-called libertarian candidate because he's against freedom of association. Yeah, he would punish cake bakers who didn't want to participate in gay weddings.

What kind of a libertarian is that?

Yeah, that's your status libertarian. That's not a libertarian at all. Really? I don't see how you can reconcile that that type of thinking with libertarianism at all. But apparently he he was able to square that circle somehow.

Yeah.

Christian Charity Versus Government Welfare

Yeah, now you made it you brought up. I think a really a wonderful point here and I'm going to. To just cite Andrew Salatin. I wouldn't hear your response to this. At one point Salatin complained that these white evangelical Protestants have abdicated social responsibility.

Because they lack charity toward poor people. And you replied to to his comment. And in what you did is you drew an important distinction? Between Christian charity on the one hand and government welfare on the other hand.

I'd like you to explain the difference between these two concepts.

Yes, they are totally different because Christian charity is when a Christian from the love of Christ Gives of his own resources freely gives a cheerful giver like the Apostle Paul says freely gives to help somebody.

That is totally different from Government welfare, which is a system in which you know, the government takes money from one citizen by force, you know, if you don't believe that don't pay your taxes next year and Gives it to another well citizen or maybe even a non-citizen in order to buy their votes and political support.

I mean that is so cynical. To identify the two they are not the same thing at all.

Right in in you're absolutely right and I think that's an absolutely crucial distinction and thank you for making that. I really appreciate the fact that you you brought that idea to the surface, you know.

One of the things that I find that when I read Immigration comments or columns or pieces by especially by Evangelicals, they seem to confuse these two ideas. You know, they seem to yeah somehow, you know, if if you don't want to to give the whole country away.

Via, you know taxes and subsidies and welfare and such like that that somehow you're not being charitable. Well, as you said, that's not Christian charity has nothing to do with Christian charity.

Exactly and in reality white evangelical Protestants are very generous people. They give a lot of money to help people here and abroad and it's just it's a slander to say that about them.

I agree completely. I think that that's and I really think that keeping that distinction between Christian charity and government welfare that overturns so much of the bad thinking that we see both in the the secular presses as well as from You know religious writers on the subject of immigration.

Exactly because they're they're trying to guilt-trip. This was what they're doing, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And let's see the. Yeah, you know that that's that that's exactly what it is. You know, they just just lay the guilt on it's it's it's amazing. Moving on to another thought here in this probably would surprise no one.

If if someone has followed the The discussions about immigration over the last number of years in the United States, he shouldn't be surprised to think that William Salatin says that racism is the reason that white evangelical Protestants are concerned about immigration.

And what are your thoughts about that?

Why the Racism Charge Has Lost Its Meaning

Well, yeah, that's the typical response and I you know. The problem with the term racism is it's a word that is that is almost lost all its meaning. No one has ever really made a clear definition of the term and yet.

You could actually lose your career if you're accused of being a racist and yet look at the things that many minority activists say about white people and they're never called to account for that. And yet, you know nowadays the term racism is generally used as a Slur against against white people or as some people have said, you know.

A definition of a racist is a liberal who's losing an argument with a conservative. It's being used, you know in those ways, right? So we shouldn't really I really honestly don't it's hard to take the word seriously anymore.

Sure.

Yeah, and of course nobody likes to be called that it's a type of a word that I mean, it's an awful thing. I mean, we don't want to you know as Christians were called to love our neighbors as ourselves.

You know, I'm gonna call to write them, you know, and and so that's not something, you know. It's terrible for for that to be said about anybody. But maybe especially as a Christian and I think it maybe scares a lot of evangelicals and I think maybe that's one of the reasons I'm just speculating here.

I see you would see what you think about that. I think it's perhaps one of the reasons why evangelicals have not given a clear unequivocal response to some of the The immigration nonsense that's not only out there just in the secular press, but that's also put out by a lot of people as representative Christian thought on immigration.

Oh.

No doubt about it, there's a great fear of being called a racist and. And it's used so unfairly that you know, people are afraid to be called a racist, but really. They're probably going to call us that anyway, so we just need to think about and do what's right, you know and not and not.

Be driven by that fear anymore. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Well Alan that really kind of covered all the the main points that I wanted to go over on your article. Did you have any other comments that that you're interested in making here today?

Well, I mean, I would just say we shouldn't. Christians should not let people like William Salatin or Ed Stetzer. Or Russell Moore, you know guilt trip us, you know. If we if I would say if you want to help poor folks in Latin America help them in their own country.

You know, that's the Christian thing to do for one thing. Your dollar goes further in those countries and you can help them in their own society in their own culture and their own communities. That's real Christian charity not trying to move, you know thousands of people.

Across thousands of miles, you know, like there's all this caravan stuff. You know that that is not Christian charity, right?

I concur completely. Well Alan where can listeners find your work on the internet?

Well, I have a I have a website called Alan wall dot info now. My name is spelled a l l a n w a l l dot and it's kind of a it's not calm. Or it's not or it's info. I info so out www .allenwall .info.

Okay outstanding. Well Alan I wanted to thank you so much for coming on the program today. It's been a real pleasure speaking with you. On behalf of everyone at thorn crown ministries. This is Steve Matthews saying thank you very much for listening.

I really hope that you join me again for our next podcast. Until then may the Spirit of truth guide you in all truth as you read and study God's Word.