Discussing Todd Friel on Submission to Government

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00:01
Welcome to Conversations with a Calvinist.
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This podcast is dedicated to helping believers better understand scripture, defend truth, and engage culture.
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Get your Bible ready and prepare to engage today's topic.
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Here's your host, Pastor Keith Foskey.
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Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.
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My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist.
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I am joined today with two of my good friends, Matthew Henson, who has been on the program before, and a longtime friend of the show.
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And I can't even remember how many times he has joined me.
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Richard Roden is here with me today.
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So I've got these two gentlemen here.
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And you know what I forgot to say? I forgot to say Matthew is my not yet Calvinist friend.
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There it is.
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I'm the token.
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That's right.
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I've got to put that in there.
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Matthew is my not yet Calvinist friend, but he's with me today and with us.
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And we're going to be talking about the subject of a recent broadcast that was put out by Wretched Radio.
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Now Wretched Radio is hosted by Todd Friel.
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Many of you have probably seen through Facebook or other social media platforms that Todd Friel said some things recently that were highly controversial in regards to the Christians responsibility to the government.
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And many Christians have responded in the negative, resoundingly negative, regarding what he said.
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And we are not the first podcast to address this issue.
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This is certainly not the first time anybody has responded.
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In fact, Dr.
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James White took to the dividing line and he responded to Todd Friel.
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So we're not the first, probably not the best, but we are going to take the opportunity to give a response because this is an issue that is affecting everyone.
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Everyone has to make a wise and informed decision about whether or not they are going to receive a vaccine.
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And this is going to become very difficult when the government, if the government begins to mandate that we must receive the vaccine.
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And I know on Todd's program, he wouldn't even say the word.
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And I understand why.
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And if by me saying the word, it may get this podcast kicked off of certain media platforms.
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Hopefully at least Sermon Audio will carry it.
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And that's our number one platform anyway, as most people who listen to this program listen via Sermon Audio.
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So we are talking about the vaccine today and we are not going to give any advice as to whether you should or should not take the vaccine.
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The issue is government mandate and even employer mandate.
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That may come up at a certain point because I know that that has affected some of us.
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So we can maybe possibly discuss that if time allows.
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But the big issue is with Todd, again, we love Todd and all of us even before the program all confirmed that we consider him to be a brother in Christ, a wonderful voice for the gospel.
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He is an open air preacher.
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He's a man who goes out and shares the gospel in some very difficult situations.
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So we love Todd and we love what he does with Wretched Radio.
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So this in no way is intended to be any type of personal attack against him or anything that could be construed as trying to cut him down or knock him down.
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Or if anything, I would say, go listen to what he had to say.
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I'm not trying to get you to not listen to Wretched Radio, listen to what he had to say.
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But we're going to give some responses to what he said.
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And the thing that was probably the most egregious statement was at a certain point in the program, he did make the statement that when it comes to the government, Christians should, and I'm quoting, do what they're told, end quote.
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That was pretty much the quote.
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Am I correct there, gentlemen? He said, you should do what you're told, even and up to if the government told me this is Todd speaking, if the government told me that I should put pinwheels in my hair every time I go to Publix, I'm going to put pinwheels in my hair every time I go to Publix.
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And that was the moment that the entire Christian community said, that does not seem right.
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And so right away, I'm going to give my guests, because they have been so gracious to give me their time, I'm going to give each of them an opportunity because they both listen to the program.
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They both have the opportunity to digest what Todd said.
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I want to give me your initial thoughts as to how he handled scripture, what he was saying and what your thoughts are on this particular issue.
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And we didn't flip a coin to see who gets to go first.
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But I'm going to ask Matthew if he'll go first.
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Sure thing.
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So I was, that video came across from what you sent it, or the link you sent it out a couple of days ago, and I gave it a listen.
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I had a notepad out and an open mind.
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Like you said, I happen to like Todd Friel a lot.
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I think I'm willing to say that 90% of his takes, I would say, I would copy and paste it and say, absolutely.
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And 10, I would put some nuance behind, but I have no fundamental gospel level disagreements with him.
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So I listened, I listened through the video with an open mind and I was writing down timestamps and numerable memorable quotes so I could have a place to go back to.
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And that was where I stopped the podcast because I didn't know that was coming.
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Apparently there've been memes made with Todd Friel and Photoshop and pinwheels.
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And I'm sure that's very similar.
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Have you seen a few? Well, if I can, cause I'm going to go, I'm going to edit this when we're done and I'm going to throw one in here.
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So, yeah, they exist.
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I've heard.
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Yeah.
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So I didn't know any of that.
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I didn't know that that was the thing, like the choice meets thing with a certain other internet apologist that came out.
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It became such a hilarious thing.
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I just, I didn't know that was coming.
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So you okay there, Richard? Yes, I'm fine.
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Go ahead.
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I think I'm missing something.
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Choice meets Layton Flowers.
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Come on, man.
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I'm lost.
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I must be.
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You didn't see James White respond to Layton Flowers talking about choice meets.
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Okay.
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Now I got to look that up too.
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Okay.
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All right.
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Well, it was a joke between me and Matthew.
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Go ahead.
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It was, it was in an effort to make, anyway, it was Layton Flowers exegesis and I'm going to say no more.
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Um, so anyways, uh, I was willing, you know, that was where I stopped the video and said, hold on, this must be what everyone is, is saying, because that is a level of absurdity.
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And I get the rhetorical point he was trying to make.
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Um, his point, basically, or not, basically his point, as far as I understood, it was if the government requires you to do something, then unless it is explicitly a sin, you do it.
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Period.
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End of discussion.
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And, um, and I'm agreeing with your take.
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I'm not agreeing with that.
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I'm agreeing with what you said, because I do believe that's exactly what he was saying.
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Yes.
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And while that is a clean and neat rule, um, and it's, it, it sort of squishes it all down and just gives you the, the focused, like, here's your takeaway.
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Um, I, I didn't agree with that.
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Um, I think there is a lot of problem with that.
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I think there's a lot more nuance than that.
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Um, I think there's a, a very poor understanding of what is being referred to in the two passages.
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Uh, when it says, um, you know, a government, and then it goes on to qualify the type of government that that is.
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I think that's a crucial distinction.
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And then finally, um, if this is, uh, applicable to all men, all times, and we're in 21st century America, then we need to talk about how America's government works.
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And if in the American governmental system, someone oversteps their bounds or chooses to something that is, does not comport with our, uh, system of government here, just because they work in the government does not mean that we should, uh, necessarily feel obliged to comply.
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If you're a governor or your mayor, or someone does something that is plainly against the law of land, um, we have recourse in the court system, but even if we do not, if it is at odds with the founding principles and founding documents and supreme law of the land, then the Christian is not bound by that, in my opinion.
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So that would, those would be my initial thoughts.
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Um, and I've got a few more out there, but I'd like to hear your Richard's take.
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So what you're saying, and I, you're saying that a King is not the same as a president.
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That's very true.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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Absolutely.
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Cause that's, that, that actually is, is, I do think is a crucial point in understanding even what Paul would have thought of when he, when he referred to governing authorities, um, the, the governing, the government structure that we are under, uh, has an authority and it's not, it's not the president.
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It's not the, it's not any one.
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It's not any one individual who functions like a King, but that's it.
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But I'm, I'm stealing what you're, I'm kind of going, but this is, yeah, but brother Richard, I, uh, I always enjoy hearing your thoughts and, uh, would like to hear as again, when you were first listening to, and I, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I remember you said when you first heard the pinwheel thing, I think you said you wanted to throw your phone out the phone off and just quit listening and had to come back to it.
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I was just like, that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard.
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Um, and I'm glad Matthew brought up the Supreme law of the land and the differing of the government being, and I guess we'll get into that later because that's going to play directly into how you interpret Romans 13 and so forth.
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So anyhow, um, initial thoughts when I was listening to it for the second time is, um, I was mostly frustrated because, okay, as y'all have pointed out, and I agree with you, he's making the point that, um, unless the government does something explicitly or commands you to do something explicitly sinful, then you should do what you're told.
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Okay.
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That's the gist.
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Then I feel like he gets into like a paralysis by analysis.
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He goes over every teeny tiny scenario on both sides of the issue, giving reasons why you should take the vaccine, give me reasons why you shouldn't.
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And so, and then, but never lands anywhere.
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And at the end of the day, you're like, well, do I, or don't I, or what? And it's just real murky water.
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And he never gives an actual, uh, stance of where he is.
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He wants you.
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And I understand what he's trying to do.
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He's wanting you to do the big, and he's wanting you to research for yourself.
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He's wanting you to, uh, make a biblical decision, but at some point, I guess you got to land what what's right or wrong.
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And he doesn't make any distinction, but it kind of gives himself away a little bit in the, in the beginning with, I think he lands on the side of take the vaccine because I don't think he sees it as explicitly simple, but he never says that I'm putting words in his mouth, but it was just frustrating to listen to for those reasons, because it was just, as I said, paralysis by analysis, he goes through the minutiae of every little tiny detail.
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And I think he misapplies some things, especially when he talks about, um, the doctrine of the lesser magistrate as, uh, John speed pointed out on his, um, Facebook page, he's friends with Todd.
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Um, he don't believe he does.
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He has to believe that Todd doesn't understand what that doctrine truly means because not two weeks ago, he was lauding the fact that John speed had did an ignore row, um, billboard and with abolished Texas.
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And so you have Freel supporting that and thinking that's a great thing.
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Well, that's, uh, ignore row is trying to get the lesser magistrate to rebel against the upper magistrate.
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You see what I'm saying? Anytime you bring up abortion, you stand against abortion.
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You are in practice by practice invoking the lesser magistrate over the higher magistrate because of the situation with abortion.
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So he, by practice, he, uh, he, he agrees with the lesser magistrate, but in word in the video, he said he doesn't.
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So there's some things that, um, I think he don't understand.
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And I think it's some things he misapplies as Matthew brought up.
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So maybe we'll get into some of that as we go along, but, uh, it was just a frustrate.
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It was frustrating to listen to this particular one.
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So anyway.
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And I w I want to, uh, I was actually, it's so funny that you mentioned that Richard, because before you even said lesser magistrate, I had pulled up the definition on Google and I understand Google is not the end all be all, but I wanted to see what Google said in regard to the lesser magistrate doctrine, because I don't think that the way that, uh, Todd defined it is really how I understand it.
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It's certainly not the way it's defined on Google, because the way that Todd seemed to define it was that an individual being a, uh, somewhat, uh, being at Liberty for himself is able to rebel if he disagrees with the, the upper magistrate, but that's not the correct me if I'm wrong, Matthew, isn't that basically what he was referring to individuals, right? It didn't sound like he was talking about the, um, actual civil authorities.
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It seemed to me that he was pressing the lesser magistrates doctrine into a.
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Into a far extreme form.
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It was a caricature of the position rather than how the reformers actually understood it.
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And I didn't think that was appropriate.
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Um, it wasn't an appropriate use of that category.
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I agree.
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Here's the, here's actually what the doctrine as it is written again, this is Google.
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This is, but this is taken for, you know, cause there's Google is just pulling from a website.
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This is actually pulling from the doctor of lesser magistrate doctrine of lesser magistrates, which is on audible.com.
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Apparently it's a book that you can purchase and listen to.
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And this is what it says.
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The doctrine of the lesser magistrates declares that when the superior or higher civil authority makes an unjust immoral law or decree the lesser or lower ranking civil authority has both the right and the duty to refuse obedience to that superior authority.
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So here's how I would, that's end quote.
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Here's how I would see that.
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And you guys correct me if you think I'm wrong is say, let's say there is a, a city mayor who makes a decree and it is wrong.
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And the sheriff says, I'm not going to enforce that because I have a position of authority as well.
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And me as the sheriff have to enforce your rules.
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If the mayor makes a rule, the sheriff is supposed to enforce the rule.
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But if the sheriff says, no, that is a immoral decree, I will not enforce it.
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Then the sheriff is, is doing right.
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And he's not sinning by disobeying the higher authority.
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And he's exercising his sphere of authority as a lesser magistrate.
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And we could go that, we could say president governor, we could say governor to mayor or whatever, but that's the way it's still a position of authority.
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That's exercising that.
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And do you remember that when Luther was on the run and you had a combination of church, the Catholic church, and had both religious and political power, it was Duke Frederick of Saxony who hit him against the legal order of the authorities of the day to turn him over.
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That's right.
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My man, my man, Duke.
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Yeah.
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I just, he's one of my favorite characters because he's doing, he is, he's saving my hero.
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Luther's my hero.
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Had Duke Frederick of Saxony taken Todd Friel's approach, then Martin Luther would probably have been turned over to the authorities.
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And you would not have had the reformation happen as it did.
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And I say that because I can, I can make that case from Todd's point of view.
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This is the church that God has established in the form of the Catholic church at the time.
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This is the proper governing authority.
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God has, you know, uh, God has placed this person in authority and I can even make a more critical argument and say, if you don't do this, he's going to rabble rouse people and people are going to die.
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So if you love your neighbor, you're going to turn this guy in because he's causing so much trouble and there's revolts and riots and all that kind of thing.
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And so the Romans 13 first Peter two argument, you have to turn him over.
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Yeah.
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And now Todd would, Todd would oppose that.
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I'm sure.
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And say, well, Luther actually had a proper biblical understanding versus the ones who didn't.
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But at the same time, the extension of his position says that that would have been the right thing to do, or at least an option.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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All right.
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Richard, did you have anything to add to that before we move it? Cause I have, I want to move on to the next question, but I didn't want to leave you hanging.
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If you had something to throw out there.
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No, sir.
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I think y'all covered that well enough.
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Don't need to add anything to it.
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Go ahead.
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Okay, good.
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All right.
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So here's where I want to move to now, because I did prepare you guys for this.
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I said before we started, I wanted to ask this question.
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Okay.
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Given the opportunity, you are both teaching men in your church.
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You both have responsibilities to teach Richard.
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You are a deacon at your church and you teach a Sunday school class.
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Matthew, are you a deacon or are you? I know you're a teacher.
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You're a teacher in your church, but yeah.
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Okay.
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And so both officially ordained position, just a connect group later.
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And then I teach a middle school.
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It was on Wednesday nights.
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Okay, great.
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So you both have an audience on a regular basis that you present biblical truth to that in there.
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And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because obviously as a preacher, I present the gospel every week.
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I present an exposition of the word.
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And about a year ago, because of all that was going on with COVID, I did preach a sermon about the government's authority.
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And I sort of gave a similar position to what Todd has said.
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And so I want to be, if somebody could throw this back in my face, somebody could go back a year ago, pull up my sermon and say, here, you said in your sermon that we are to obey the government unless they call us to sin.
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And that was basically what I said.
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And that's basically what Todd said.
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But in that sermon, I was not digging down into the minutia of what are we saying might qualify as sin? Because the way that Todd has described it is it would have to be explicit sin that is so clear that it can't be seen any other way.
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And I'll give you my answer to the pinwheel response.
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If somebody says, well, what if the government told you to wear pinwheels in your hair every time you go to the store? My response to that, if somebody were to ask me that question, I would say I would not wear the pinwheels because it is an affront to my humanity to say that it is my responsibility to go and wear, to essentially dress as a child or in a feminine way.
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And it would be the same to me as if somebody said, you have to dress as a woman when you go to Publix.
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Well, then I'm not doing it because this is an attack against the image of God, which I bear as an image bearer of God.
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And I do think that there is a sense in which things like mass mandates making us cover ourselves.
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I do think there's a sense in which that was an affront to the basic dignity of the image of God that we're called to bear.
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In fact, I jokingly would say that.
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Sometimes if I didn't have a mask on or whatever, somebody said, you have to wear a mask.
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And I say, I have a religious exemption.
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And they would look at me funny.
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And I say, yeah, I'm not going to cover the image of God.
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And they would laugh because that was sort of my response.
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And again, some would take issue with that.
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I'm sure you guys have your own opinions.
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But because I didn't go as deep as I could have in the sermon, I just want to clarify given the opportunity to preach that same sermon again, I would probably dive deeper seeing how Todd's message has been responded to.
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So just to be clear now.
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Okay.
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So when we're talking about the subject of the sermon that I preached, which was telling people we do have a responsibility to obey the government, but we'd never obey the government if it causes us to sin.
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We then have to ask the question, the deeper question of what is it that the government is asking us to do that is sinful.
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As I've already said, I feel like calling me to humiliation, calling me to, in a sense, devaluing of my life or my children's life.
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I see that as sinful.
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So Richard, when you're teaching your Sunday school class, obviously I know because I've listened to you teach and we've talked about your lessons before.
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I know that you're very conscientious when it comes to preaching the word, teaching the word, and you want to be right with scripture.
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So what do you think that if you were going to teach on this subject, how would you differ from what Todd said in regard to the responsibilities of obedience to the government? Well, it's, it's complicated, but we'll try, I'll try to simplify it for purposes of this video.
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Romans 13 says we should submit to the government.
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The government's installed by God and the government has a responsibility to act as an agent of God for rewarding good and punishing evil.
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Otherwise we don't have to obey.
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That's how I would look at Romans 13.
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Because as long as the government is doing what it's supposed to do and rewarding good and punishing evil, we are in acting as agents of God because they're installed by God, then we are to be in obedience to them.
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Now that's written back in a time when, as you mentioned before, with kings, not presidents, not congresses and this whole governmental system we have that is just huge now.
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So the difference we have now is that we have a, and Matthew brought this up earlier, we have a supreme law of the land, which is the constitution.
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We have a founding document by which the government is to act according to that founding document, which we brought up earlier, gives us life, liberty, and property.
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I have a personal right when it comes to this particular vaccine or any other thing to protect my own life, to preserve my own life, both under the constitution and biblical.
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I have a right to self-defense.
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I have a right to protect myself and do what I need to do.
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So when it comes to Romans 13 and whether or not we should obey the government, even with this vaccine or in other areas, our government, by my own opinion, is so far removed from rewarding good and punishing evil and doing the exact opposite.
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It's almost to a point now where just about in every element of society, the Christian needs to be in some kind of rebellion.
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We're murdering the unborn.
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These vaccine mandates, which Todd brought up since we're responding to his video, Todd brought up several times the issue of the body, if you understand what I'm saying.
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He brought up the issue of the body and that if it's harmful to you or harmful to someone else, things that you should think about.
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Are you doing harm to your neighbor? Are you doing harm to your children, to your wife by letting them have this vaccine? And I know you asked me how I would teach this to a Sunday school class, but we're responding to a video, so it's kind of hard not to put the two together.
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No, I don't have a problem, and you're actually answering.
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I think that you're doing just what I wanted because really you've already sort of said the way you understand Romans 13 is the responsibility.
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The government has a responsibility too.
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And when they're outside of their responsibility, as you see it, when they're outside of their responsibility, then that's when the Christian has to take a stand.
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And call them to repentance, call them back into right action as God has commanded them to do.
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And since their responsibility is to the constitution, and their whole purpose for existing is to protect our rights and our liberties, that's the whole purpose they're there.
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That's the whole purpose of government, protect our rights, protect our liberties.
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That's it.
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That's what they exist to do.
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They're not doing that right now.
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Now to get back to, okay, is the vaccine harmful? Does it cause damage? Well, I have some statistics to give you real quick.
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I'm not going to go along, but I can make the argument that this vaccine is harmful.
25:54
It does harm to you and others.
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The Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System, or VAERS, as of 7-23-21, so it's a month old, out of 518,769 reports so far, the vaccine itself has caused 11,940 deaths, 40,991 hospitalizations, 65,000 have gone to urgent care, 88,000 have gone to office visits, 4,110 have suffered from anaphylactic shock, 3,714 Bell's Palsy, 1,272 miscarriages, 4,800 heart attacks, 12,808 permanently disabled people as of 7-23, that's just what the vaccine caused upon injection.
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So that's just immediate effects.
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I know out of 518,000, those numbers aren't a huge percentage, but that's still immediate effects.
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We have a vaccine here that is experimental, and we don't know what the long-term effects are because they haven't done the studies.
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It's not had two to five years of study like most vaccines do.
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Now, for those who are fully vaccinated, those who are fully vaccinated, a new report came out today, they have 251 times the viral load of anyone else.
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So they're actually a risk to the unvaccinated patients and co-workers in the hospital.
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So all the vaccinated workers are actually carrying more of the virus than the unvaccinated or someone who just caught COVID.
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Therefore, they're actually more infectious than the unvaccinated or someone who just is carrying COVID or comes in with COVID.
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Breakthrough cases, so those who have been vaccinated and now have caught COVID, that's what a breakthrough case is.
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As of August 9th, 8,054 resulted in hospitalization or death.
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And the CDC says the cases are underreported.
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So that number is probably much higher.
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So there's 8,000 people have caught the virus that they've reported and either been hospitalized, on vets, or died.
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In Louisiana, the breakthrough cases are 30% of all the new case, not Louisiana, but Los Angeles, the breakthrough cases are 30% of all the new cases.
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And this is a place where they're like mandate crazy with masks and quarantining and all that stuff.
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But 30% of all new cases are breakthrough cases, people who are vaccinated, catching the virus.
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In the state of Massachusetts alone, there have been 12,500 breakthrough cases reported in Massachusetts and 124 deaths.
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And that's not an isolated incident.
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That's happening all over the country.
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So you can make the argument whether or not the Christian who is trying to protect himself and protect others, love your neighbor as yourself.
28:41
This vaccine, it actually caused harm, not only to you, but to others and your family, if you administer it to yourself.
28:50
So, and if we want to get into, and we're not gonna go deep into this, but I'm just gonna throw this out there.
28:55
The political elements of this vaccine, the overreaching element of they got to get a needle in every arm.
29:04
There's something up with that, that the government wants this to happen so bad that everybody gets a needle in their arm, something else is going on.
29:14
I think it's a duty to rebel because I think there's some tyrannical elements to it.
29:19
And as John Calvin once said, to rebel against tyranny is to obey God, period.
29:27
So when it comes to Romans 13, I don't think we have to get the vaccine as a blanket obedience to Romans 13 or 1 Peter 2, because the government's telling us to do so.
29:38
Because there's many a biblical argument you can make of why you shouldn't do it.
29:43
And going from the Bible all the way to the constitution, and you can put the two together because Romans 13 is about obeying the government.
29:49
Well, our government has a constitution that says that I don't have to inject chemicals in my body.
29:55
The government told me I had to drink diluted poison.
29:58
I wouldn't do it.
29:59
I don't have to put something in my body just because they tell me to, period.
30:03
The constitution protects us of that.
30:05
And if we're going to go off Romans 13, which says that the governing body has to obey the constitution they've written, well, they're no longer doing what they're supposed to do.
30:12
So we have a right, as you were talking about with wearing pinwheels in our hair, to rebel, to disobey.
30:19
So that would be what I would say if I had to present this to the class or anyone for that matter or your listener.
30:27
Okay.
30:28
All right.
30:29
So, Matthew, if you had your class in front of you and you were having to present the concept of obedience to government, and when is it? Because the big question is not whether or not we should obey.
30:40
It's the question is when should we disobey? And when do we have a right, or as Richard just said, a duty to disobey? What say you? Um, so I, I had a, I have a large agreement with Richard on, on what he said there.
30:59
Um, well, that's good.
31:02
Cause I thought you're the brainiac was fixing to nail me to a wall.
31:08
I don't let that reputation get out.
31:10
So I will, I will say, uh, let's start with, let's start with the biblical and then we'll flow into the governmental, because I think we said in, in pre-show, let's suppose, and Richard references, let's suppose for a moment that I grant, um, Todd Friel's premise.
31:26
Let's assume that, that pinwheels are indeed, uh, the order of the day.
31:30
If so, if so commanded by the government.
31:32
And that, that, that is, that is true that in all cases outside of sin, we must obey the government.
31:37
Let's say that that's a proposition that I'm granting for argument.
31:42
Then the next question would be, um, what is the government? What is the governing authority? And as Richard laid out perfectly the highest authority in the land, the document begins with we, the people.
31:54
And so this type of government was not really in existence.
31:57
When Paul is writing this letter to the church in Rome, there is Caesar, there is an emperor and he has plenary power to do what he wants to.
32:05
There's some sort of, there's a Roman Senate, but not really by this point, they don't really do a whole lot.
32:11
And so, uh, in our system, the way the, the, the government that I believe that God has ordained as Paul says in Romans 13, um, that he has set up in this time for these people on this continent has a supreme law of the land called the constitution.
32:30
And before the constitution was even, uh, written the, the very document that established the United States as a independent nation, that a lot of the Romans 13 people came against at the time, the declaration of independence.
32:44
And a lot of the Romans 13 people, uh, I'll say Romans 13 misusers.
32:49
We're all Romans 13 people.
32:50
It's God free scripture, but let me clarify the Romans 13 misusers would come to the ones who wrote the declaration of independence and say, you're doing the wrong thing.
33:00
You know, the British monarchy, it's God's government and all that kind of thing.
33:04
But what, what does it say at the start of it? It says the unanimous declaration of the 13 United States of America.
33:11
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands, which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitled them a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
33:30
We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.
33:34
They are endowed by their creator of a certain inalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to Richard's point in earlier drafts, that was property.
33:42
And that was actually the John Locke position was property, um, that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the government of the governed, excuse me, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new government.
34:02
So the very founding document that established the country said that for the purpose of securing rights, the government must be instituted.
34:12
But if it, uh, if it becomes destructive to those ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.
34:17
And so that is the, that is the framework.
34:20
That is the Romans 13 government that we are dealing with.
34:23
The deck was set from the very beginning that this government is stated to protect rights.
34:29
Those rights are listed largely in the bill of rights, though there are others.
34:32
The ninth amendment, by the way, is a direct line right to natural law.
34:36
It straight up says, just because we didn't list a right in the bill of rights doesn't mean it doesn't exist because, uh, you know, they had a belief in the natural law, a very Lockean idea.
34:47
So I would set that as a premise for anyone saying that a government can impose a particular, uh, you know, vaccine on someone is, I would say that you have to understand that you're in very shaky ground.
35:00
If you want to go back to the founding documents, the very, uh, constitutional jurisprudence that was used to decide Roe versus Wade was that there is a, uh, there is a, a woman has the right to, uh, repel the government when it attempts to, and I'll use some of the parlance of the pro-choice movement, um, that when they attempt to invade a woman's reproductive choices or her body, that she has a right to repel them.
35:27
And, uh, the justices in the court at the time said, that's absolutely true.
35:31
It's a very dubious, it's an awfully written opinion.
35:34
Um, it would not pass a constitutional law class nowadays, but the argument at the time was, yes, you have bodily autonomy in that way, that whether we like it or not, that is the current law of the land.
35:44
I think it's a stupid opinion and it makes absolutely no sense, but that is how it is.
35:49
And so if that is the case, we have to ask a couple of other questions and it's, is the government overstepping its bounds? Now that is the question we have to ask.
35:58
Now let's look at a more, I guess what is often brought up as the Christian response.
36:03
And I've seen this, there was a church in Canada that posted this very, um, let's say interesting, uh, requirement.
36:09
They're requiring all people who come in to their church to be vaccinated.
36:13
Um, and they won't allow you to come in if you're not vaccinated.
36:16
And, and that almost as a, I say this almost as in sarcasm to my friends sometimes, but the pastor said, wouldn't that be the Christian thing to do to love one another and get the vaccine? Yeah, the head of the national, I think the national association of evangelicals said the same thing.
36:33
Uh, his video was posted, said basically the same thing that the loving thing to do loving your Jesus would tell you to get the vaccine.
36:42
That was what he said.
36:43
So yeah.
36:44
Okay.
36:45
So let's think about that for a minute.
36:47
What let's, let's logic through that because there is no Bible verse that says thou shalt get thy vaccine.
36:52
So we're left to work through this too.
36:56
Yeah.
36:56
I mean, you know, got to throw a little King James in there.
36:58
So, um, we spake at the King's English.
37:02
So there's nothing in there that says anything about this specifically and by name.
37:06
So let's talk about it for a minute.
37:07
Um, Dr.
37:09
Rochelle Walensky, who's the director of the CDC, who is a, um, highly unreliable and politically motivated stooge.
37:16
And that's the nicest way I can put it.
37:20
It just, we're going to go with that, um, has consistently contradicted herself has acted illegally in, in many different ways.
37:29
She was, uh, having an interview, I believe with Wolf Blitzer on CNN and actually pulled the quote because I wanted to, to get it right.
37:36
But what she said was, and this is quoting our vaccine.
37:41
Our vaccines are working exceptionally well.
37:44
Walensky told CNN's Wolf Blitzer quote, they continue to work well for Delta with regard to severe illness and death.
37:51
They prevent it, but what they cannot do anymore is prevent transmission.
37:55
Okay.
37:56
So now the, the equation has completely changed because now it is specifically a personal choice.
38:03
It used to be get the vaccine so that you do not, cause the, uh, the earlier variants, the vaccine would prevent you from spreading COVID to other people.
38:11
It would reduce your viral load.
38:13
And so there was at least a tenuous argument of, well, to love your neighbor, you need to get vaccinated so you don't expose them to danger.
38:20
I'm not, I wouldn't go with that one, but there's at least a tenuous argument to be had there.
38:26
Now, the very organization that has a corrupt incentive to push vaccination is telling us they will not stop transmission.
38:36
She, she said it clear as day and then was asked for follow-up a couple of days later and verified it.
38:40
And the data coming out of the CDC shows the same.
38:42
So now any argument that anyone wants to make of do this to love your neighbor is, is out the window.
38:48
It doesn't exist anymore.
38:50
If what we're saying is this vaccine will not change whether or not you are infective to someone else.
38:56
If that is the case, then any kind of love your neighbor argument is now gone.
39:00
At this point, the only thing you have is a well to keep yourself healthy so that you are fit for service in God's kingdom.
39:08
You need to take this vaccine.
39:09
That is the only argument.
39:10
And at that point we need to talk about cigarettes and McDonald's and not running every day and all of the other things out there that diminish our health.
39:17
It has moved it to a much lower plane of argumentation.
39:22
It will be the consistent position of this program to never encourage running every day.
39:30
I like this.
39:32
The guy, the guy who wrote the book on jogging died while jogging.
39:35
Just so you know, that's right.
39:36
There it is.
39:37
Yeah.
39:38
So if that's the case, if there is now no, and by the way, I will differ with you on this, Richard.
39:44
I think that all the data that we have and it's the vaccine effectiveness seems to be waning, but I will differ with you on this.
39:52
The data that we have tends to show that for someone who has never been infected with COVID, that the vaccines do an extremely good job of preventing serious illness and death.
40:03
People who are vaccinated and are then exposed to COVID tend to have either no case or an extremely mild case.
40:11
They are doing an exceptionally good job at preventing death from COVID.
40:15
Just from the data I've seen, that is waning.
40:18
The data coming out of Israel, which is at 95% vaccinated or something like that is pretty frightening.
40:24
Their deaths are picking up quickly.
40:26
So it won't be much longer before I would not make that case.
40:29
But what I will say is if someone is considering protecting themselves with it, and they would like to go and do that, I think the data is still on your side.
40:37
Any Christian who wants to, I would say, carry on, brother, if you choose to do so.
40:45
Turning around and imposing it on other members of a body, I have some serious problems with that.
40:51
Yeah, just to follow up on what you just said, and then I'll let you say what you're going to say.
40:58
But Dr.
40:58
White made this point on the dividing line.
41:00
He said that the issue we have is the vaccine is for last years.
41:08
Yes, virus.
41:09
And that's why what's happening in Israel is happening is because the new variant is not receptive to the vaccine as it was.
41:18
So that was a point I had not realized about what was going on in Israel, and I'd heard that on the dividing line.
41:25
So just to reaffirm what you had just said.
41:27
Yeah, sure.
41:28
So my grandmother is 84 years old, was a smoker for years and years and years, and had a recent episode in the hospital.
41:35
It was a COPD kind of flare up thing.
41:39
So she's 84.
41:40
She's been a lifelong smoker and has severely diminished lung capacity.
41:44
COVID would be astronomically lethal to her.
41:48
And so she went and got vaccinated.
41:50
And I think afterwards, I think she did get COVID, but it was the sniffles for a few days.
41:55
Praise God that medical science, probably, probably, was able to help her with that.
42:01
And that she did not, you know, she is still with us to this day.
42:04
I'm happy about that.
42:06
On the other hand, my aunt who, so her daughter, who is a nurse, went and got her first shot.
42:12
She had COVID, but then she went and got her first shot.
42:14
And then in the waiting period between the two shots, she attended the funeral of a man who died after his second shot.
42:20
Two days after his second shot, he had a brain bleed and died.
42:24
Now, is that saying that the COVID vaccine killed him? We don't know for sure.
42:29
We cannot say that for 100% sure.
42:31
But her, as a medical professional, as a nurse who had already gotten her first shot, opted not to get her second one.
42:38
She said, I have recovered from COVID.
42:40
I have natural immunity.
42:41
I have one shot.
42:41
We're going to leave it at that because I don't, I don't, you know, I don't trust this anymore.
42:46
For a government or a person or a church to come to her and override her concern and say, you must do this anyway, reaches to an extremely high threshold of belief, basically.
42:58
We're getting into the point where we're talking about drafting someone for war as far as what is the conscience objection level we're hitting right here.
43:06
So that's just an anecdote I'd like to share in that.
43:08
So I'm 100% pro vaccine.
43:10
If you want to get you one and protect yourself, it's waning.
43:13
But right now they work pretty well.
43:16
And I do think they work.
43:18
I don't think it's all a giant scam or 5G microchips or anything like that.
43:22
But at the same time, I think any, any argument about love your neighbor, get a vaccine is completely gone.
43:28
The CDC director over a month ago said, so I'm going to choose to believe her on that.
43:35
Well, I want to throw out a sort of began to draw us to a final thought because we we've, we've shared our thoughts about Todd.
43:44
And again, I agree with a lot of what you guys have said about how you understand Romans 13 and our government structure here in the United States.
43:53
And, but, but I want to also, and this is going to sort of just begin to draw us to a close, but the big question in my heart and mind is something that I think a lot of people are missing and all this Richard hit on it a little bit and what he said, but I do want to, I want to throw this out for, for, for thought.
44:14
And then you gentlemen can, can add your final thoughts to this.
44:20
It does seem as if there is a conditioning process that is happening in the midst of all this.
44:27
And the conditioning is to really love your neighbor.
44:32
You have to obey the government, no matter what we tell you to do.
44:36
And the danger in that is even though what they're telling us to do may not be explicitly sinful today.
44:45
What are they going to tell us to do tomorrow? And if there is no one who is willing to stand up and say, wait a minute, you're telling me to love my neighbor.
44:55
I have to do this.
44:57
What are you going to ask me for tomorrow? And what's going to happen? I saw it was a meme and I know memes are meant to be entertaining, but it had some truth in it.
45:06
It said the final variant of COVID is communism.
45:10
The idea, you know, the idea is that it's just going to keep evolving into what what's next.
45:16
What's next.
45:17
And my last program, for those of you who listen to the program weekly, thank you.
45:21
My last program, I talked about the dangerous things that are happening in China.
45:25
And I talked about the truly egregious human rights violations that are happening in China.
45:35
As we see the government bearing more and more and more authority over its people and the people having no voice and no recourse and no ability to stand up and say, we've gone far enough and we're going no further.
45:51
And so that's the real danger that I think is potential is if no one stands up, then eventually we're all just going to be on our knees.
46:03
So I do think that there are times where we have to take a stand when the government is calling us to something that is unsafe.
46:13
Certainly that is sinful.
46:14
But also when the government is calling us to something that is ridiculous, I think that is also sinful as well.
46:22
And I'm not a Tim LaHaye pre-trib guy, but if we took the Romans 13, you know, the dispensational view of Romans 13 is that one day they're going to ask us to put something on our body that will allow us to buy things that will allow us to do commerce.
46:44
Right now, I take a different view on that.
46:46
I tend to be more preteristic.
46:47
I tend to look at that from a historic perspective.
46:50
But let's just for a moment, pretend that the DSP's got it right on this one.
46:55
And that one day there is going to come either a microchip or a tattoo or something that you have to have on your body.
47:01
Is this not the perfect setup for such a thing to say, how are you loving your neighbor? Well, right now you're loving your neighbor by wearing a mask and getting a shot.
47:10
What's it going to be tomorrow? And that's really my thought.
47:14
I'll give you guys a chance for a couple minutes to give your final thoughts on that.
47:18
And then we'll close the program.
47:21
Richard, you're first.
47:24
Um, well, what's going to happen tomorrow, I think as far as the church is going, it's already happened in places anyway, when it comes to this.
47:30
I mean, think about the contact tracing.
47:32
You've already had churches turning in churches.
47:35
They're meeting.
47:36
They're already turning each other in because they're not obeying the government.
47:40
So we already see the next step already happening.
47:43
It's just hasn't got here yet to that degree.
47:47
But that'll be what's next is turning in your fellow Christian because they're doing X, Y, Z.
47:52
And it's not out of the range of possibility for this COVID-19 vaccine to be the so-called mark of the beast, as they call it.
48:01
My wife works in the medical field.
48:04
She already has doctors.
48:06
She's heard doctors and other nurses talking about wanting policies to be implemented at the hospital that if you don't have a vaccination, you don't get healthcare.
48:16
We don't, we don't take care of you.
48:18
We're not going to see you.
48:19
We're not going to provide you come in with a gunshot wound.
48:20
If you ain't vaccinated, see you later, die.
48:23
That's that's where these people are at right now over the insanity of all this.
48:29
So what's happening tomorrow is already starting to be in the mind of people today.
48:36
That's what's so terrible about this vaccine is because it's like the launching pad for all this other draconian garbage that's coming down the pike.
48:46
They're going to use that.
48:48
That's why I say it's a tyrannical tool in my opinion.
48:51
And that's just my opinion.
48:53
I'm not a wild conspiracy theorist.
48:54
No, not just my opinion.
48:55
I think they're going to use this as a tool to take the next steps.
48:59
They want to take for more and more control over your life.
49:03
Especially eventually the church.
49:05
What are you going to do when they say when the government says you got to be vaccinated to gather or you lose tax exemption status? What are you going to do as a body of believers? Oh, we lock your building up or we lock your building up.
49:17
Right.
49:17
If you have one unvaccinated member, we're shutting you down.
49:21
Yeah.
49:21
What's the church? What's the Christian going to do then? Are they going to start screaming Romans 13 and make everybody get vaccinated? A lot of them will.
49:29
But that's the one thing I've learned.
49:31
When you look at history, when a major cultural change happens, what does it take? One or two people to finally stand up, start making some noise and then things happen.
49:43
The church has got to be those one or two people.
49:45
That's what the church has to be.
49:47
Because we're looking at this from a biblical perspective.
49:49
We're looking at this from a biblical worldview.
49:52
We're looking at it from a gospel worldview.
49:54
And that should drive us to when the government is doing what they are doing right now, to stand against that because we can see what's coming.
50:03
We can't wait till it happens.
50:05
That's why China is in the position they're in.
50:07
That's why other places are in a position they're in.
50:09
They waited just till it happened.
50:11
We can't wait till we see what happens.
50:13
We got to be proactive now, is my opinion on it.
50:16
So that's my final thought on it.
50:20
It's time to actually get some courage in the church pew, period.
50:26
We got a lot of people who misunderstand scripture.
50:29
They misapply it.
50:30
And I think they do it for comfort or it's easy just to obey.
50:34
It's easy to just do what they tell us to do.
50:36
It doesn't matter what they tell us to do.
50:37
Just do it.
50:38
Because if we keep them happy and we keep them appeased, nothing bad will happen to us.
50:45
Well, I got bad news for you.
50:47
Bad things happen.
50:50
And anyway, I'm going to get off on a soapbox in a minute.
50:52
I'll let Matthew talk for a few minutes.
50:56
I saw somebody post something recently.
50:58
It said the danger of appeasement is that the ones who appease are often hung by the ones who don't or who they appease.
51:05
They hung by the ones they're appeasing.
51:07
Boy, A.W.
51:08
is the one that posted that.
51:10
Yeah, it was Austin.
51:11
Austin couldn't make the program.
51:13
He posted.
51:13
That's where you saw it.
51:14
Yeah.
51:15
All right, Matthew, give me your final thoughts.
51:17
We're going to sign out.
51:18
Sure.
51:19
Winston Churchill said you can't negotiate with a crocodile while your head is in its mouth.
51:24
Boom.
51:27
And so to Richard and to Keith, both of your points, if we're being told to place our head in the crocodile's mouth and the jaws are getting closer and closer and closer and closer, the argument can be made.
51:40
Well, the teeth aren't touching you yet.
51:42
I don't get what the big deal is.
51:44
They're not puncturing your skull yet.
51:47
Why don't you just love your neighbor a little bit more? By the time the teeth have begun to dig in, it's too late and you are unable to negotiate with that crocodile while your head is in its mouth.
51:58
Right now, we do have time.
52:01
There is light.
52:02
It is fading in this country.
52:03
There's no question about that.
52:05
But we do have light right now.
52:07
And it is our job to keep those avenues open for as long as possible to proclaim the gospel.
52:13
I understand the argument that the persecuted church spreads.
52:16
I get that.
52:18
But we would all like to see less evil rather than more evil on this earth.
52:23
And if a government that respects the rights of men given to them by God exists, then we should fight with all measure that we have to preserve that because it is the type of government that God would want to have instituted, one that punishes evil and rewards good.
52:40
Though, as Richard has pointed out, that is rapidly fading and it has in large measure faded from our system.
52:45
So while we have light, we need to speak out.
52:48
One, just one last little thing that comes to mind.
52:56
If our government is the type that punishes wrong and commends those who do what is right, which is said in both 2 Peter and Romans, two different authors both make the case that they punish evil and commend those who do right.
53:12
Very interesting that both of them make that assertion.
53:18
Then that is a different case.
53:20
But the one we have now is a government that has been full of deception.
53:24
We were told two weeks to slow the spread.
53:26
And that's almost a joke and an eye roll and a punchline now.
53:29
And then we were told it was, well, just until we make sure the hospitals don't get overwhelmed.
53:35
And then it was, well, just until we have a vaccine.
53:37
And then it was just until everybody has a chance to get the vaccine.
53:41
Well, just until everybody does get the vaccine.
53:43
And the problem is now the goalposts have shifted so far that that last one will not be achieved without mandates, which is why you're hearing a lot of those, which is why a normal five-year FDA approval process was done in 11 months.
53:55
The fact that the FDA has rubber stamped this is not met any of the normal avenues of vaccine approval.
54:03
It is incumbent, it is required of the Christian to be as, what is it, as gentle as doves and wise as serpents, I believe.
54:14
We are to be the ones that look askance at a government that has made claim after claim after claim and lied.
54:21
And it's not the government as an institution, but specific people who were in power at the start of this and are still in power and have demonstrated a colossally untrustworthy track record.
54:34
It would be foolish.
54:35
And I would say sinful on our part to just shrug and say, well, I guess they're going to get it right this time.
54:43
Pharaoh said he was going to take care of those Hebrew babies.
54:45
So why don't we just give them up for daycare? He said he's going to take care of them.
54:52
And I think the midwives of Egypt refuse to do that.
54:55
I think that it is our time to look carefully, analyze all the facts.
55:01
Don't go to conspiracy websites, go to official sources.
55:04
And when the official sources lie to you, try and find other data.
55:07
But it is not on us to blindly trust the government at this stage.
55:11
And at this point in history, that would be what I would close with.
55:15
Amen.
55:15
Amen.
55:16
Well, gentlemen, I want to thank you both for being on the program today.
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And I want to thank you, listener, for being with us throughout the show.
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And I want to close by saying this.
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I know that this is a volatile issue with a lot of opinions.
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And as we said from the beginning, we love Todd and we love Wretched Radio.
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So this was certainly not an attack on him.
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It was just an opportunity for brothers to get together.
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And we are all brothers in Christ here and to talk about where we may disagree and differ with him on this perspective and give some thoughts as to how we would teach these particular verses and help people to understand their responsibility to be good citizens, but also to be good Christians and to remember that our citizenship is ultimately and firstly citizenship in the kingdom of God.
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And so everything that we do is going to and should reflect where our citizenship truly lies.
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So again, thank you for listening to the program today.
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Thank you, Matthew.
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Thank you, Richard, for being with me.
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I'm always grateful for both of you and look forward to next time.
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So if you have a question, please send it in to us at calvinistpodcast at gmail.com.
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And I look forward to being with you on next week's program.
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May God bless you.
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And thank you for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.
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My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.
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Thank you for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.
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If you enjoyed the program, please take a moment to subscribe.
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And if you have a question you would like us to discuss on our future program, please email us at calvinistpodcast at gmail.com.
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As you go about your day, remember this, Jesus Christ came to save sinners.
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All who come to Him in repentance and faith will find Him to be a perfect Savior.
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He is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him.
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May God be with you.