July 30, 2021 Show with Kenny Hilliard on “The Theology of Worship”

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 30th day of July 2021 and I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest at the enthusiastic recommendation of my most recent former pastor

Mark Rimaldi who was formerly my pastor at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York where he served for 16 years as one of the two pastors.

Now he has taken a call to Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee and if you were listening yesterday he was my guest yesterday.

Well my former pastor Mark said to me you've really got to get our music or worship pastor

Kenny Hilliard on your program. He is an extremely talented musician and he and his wife have a duo titled

Kenny and Claire and they produce professionally recorded music and I am so looking forward to interviewing

Kenny Hilliard who has his THM and MDiv from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina and he is in addition to being the worship pastor at Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee a recording artist in Nashville performing with his wife

Claire as a duo called Kenny and Claire as I mentioned earlier and they have an album released or releasing

I should say in September of rewritten hymns that have fallen out of common use and today we are going to be addressing the theme

The Theology of Worship. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Kenny Hilliard.

Thank you Chris, thank you for having me on. It's definitely a blessing and it's been a joy for me to serve with Mark.

He's really a wonderful guy. Yes he is and you will no doubt be very blessed there at Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee hopefully for many many years to come.

Well why don't you for the lack for those of our listeners who failed to listen yesterday tell our listeners about Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee.

So Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier is a Reformed Baptist church. We're currently members of the

SBC but we are looking at our BNET and other situations.

We are confessional, 1689 at least Mark and I are and right now it's really a church plant.

We're getting started. You know with COVID and all the other things that have happened it's kind of like a reset but we're very very hopeful.

We're already seeing a growth both numerically and spiritually and it's been a blessing to serve them.

There's a there's a very loving fellowship and a great sense of hospitality among the people.

Great, well if anybody wants to get more information about Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee, also known as Sovereign Grace Church of Whitehouse, Tennessee, go to sovereigngracechurch .net,

sovereigngracechurch .net you'll have all the details that you need. And I believe that I am going to start off, before we even get into any further discussion, and in fact since you are a first -time guest, we have a tradition here that we have our first -time guests give a summary of their salvation testimony.

And if you could do that, that would be great. Yeah, that'd be fantastic. But before we do that,

I wanted to whet the appetites of our listeners by playing an initial song and then perhaps you could give it some setup.

Tell us about the beauty. So, For the Beauty of the Earth is actually a hymn that most of you will probably be familiar with.

Generally, the songs on this album, we've wanted to stick to ones that aren't commonly used, just because if they're commonly used, typically the melody is okay, the information is being conveyed, people want to use it.

But my wife put together a melody for The Beauty of the Earth that's slightly different, and it kind of goes back to this idea that when a lot of these hymns were written, formal melodies did convey grandeur and majesty.

And so, in that societal context, it made sense to use them. In ours, it can, because of the way we've been societally changed, it doesn't convey that same depth.

And so, we wanted to take the glorious truths of For the

Beauty of the Earth and put them in a context where we recognize that we're singing these glorious truths, but we're still in a dark world that's dealing with sin, and so it's partially why there's a minor key.

We're hoping that by making the melody more accessible, it'll be used more widely, but we also were hoping that the melody conveyed the theology behind the hymn itself.

Well, here we go. And here is For the Beauty, what was the full title?

Because I can only see For the Beauty. Actually, we just call it For the Beauty. The original hymn is

For the Beauty of the Earth. Oh, okay, great. Well, here we go. I hope. Praise God, that was beautiful.

Thank you, a blessing to hear it. Yeah, you and your wife, Claire, are certainly talented.

By the way, I just had a curiosity, the photograph on your website, did you two just have an argument before that photo was taken?

It's supposed to be contemplative, but yeah, it does kind of look like there might be something going on.

You know, it was the first time, you know, you do family photos, and you think happy people and all this stuff, and of course, you go to do a band shoot, and they're like, you can't smile.

You know, it's like you're trying to think, okay, I don't want to look like I'm enraged, but how do

I convey? I'm thinking without smiling too much. So yeah, it was a kind of a learning experience for us in that regard.

Yeah, well, the photo looks fine. I just thought that I'd bring that up. No, definitely.

I hadn't thought about it, but when you bring it up, I see that. Well, now, as I hinted at before, since you are a first -time guest, we always have our first -time guests give a summary of their salvation experience or their testimony, including what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you. So, please provide your story.

Yeah, no, I love getting the opportunity to do that. So, I was raised in an independent, fundamental

Baptist situation in the South. King James only, you know, all the things.

And when I... So, I prayed the prayer. It's actually funny.

In a Sunday evening service, the pastor asked who wanted to be saved, and I think you probably have heard some pastors give the analogy of jumping off the roof of a house into the dark to a father who's going to rescue, or something like that.

No, but I did have a pastor tell me to jump off the roof of a house. No, I'm like... Okay. And tell

Pastor Grimaldi I forgive him. In my context, you know, pastors seem to have used that illustration a lot.

So, in my mind, when he asked who wants to be saved, you know, I'm going to jump out of the choir, a choir loft. It sounds like an adventure.

And, of course, they take me forward. All these old ladies are crying. The associate pastor takes me to a room.

He's like, you don't want to go to hell, do you? And it's just the whole thing. And so, I answered the questions, and I was baptized. But by the time

I got to middle school, I realized that I didn't love the things of God. I wasn't interested.

And I would go to my youth pastor, and I'd be like, you know, I really don't think that I'm a believer.

And he'd be like, you prayed the prayer, didn't you? I'm like, yeah. And he says, well, you know, you meant it, didn't you? And, of course, who wants to say, no,

I didn't mean it, you know? So, of course, you say, yeah. And he goes, well, it's just Satan bothering you. Don't worry about it. You're a believer.

And that was really the setting that I was raised in. By the time

I got to my junior year of high school, I was actually...

I was a really good skateboarder and was helping lead a mission trip in Canada, doing skate camps to bring in the teens and kids from the community, you know, for opportunities for evangelism.

And there was one night of worship where I think all they did was play music and had just a time of prayer.

But in that time of prayer, I became distinctly aware that God was very angry with me.

And I was living in unrepentance, and I had done things that are horrible, not worth mentioning.

And I felt His anger, and sitting in the pew,

I just started trying to make a deal. You know, well, I'll pray more. I'll read the Bible more. You know, I can do these things to make me a better person.

And I just was distinctly aware that He was getting angrier and angrier with me.

This was not making things better. And it got to the point where I was underneath the pew in the floor, and I was at my wit's end.

I was like, what can I do? And it was then that it hit me that it was

Christ who had done the work, and that my attempts to do it were rejecting

Him and His work. In essence, I was kind of spitting on what God had already done for me.

And in that moment where I just told Him, I trust Jesus' work. If He hasn't saved me,

I can't. Um, the anger was relieved, and I have been different since, you know.

Of the things that I used to love, I now hate. The things that I used to hate, I now love. And it was a very poignant time.

I know not everybody in their testimony, you know, has that kind of experience, but um, but it definitely stands out in my mind.

I'm grateful for it. But yeah, that was the time that the Lord got a hold of me. And I, shortly thereafter, just overwhelmed by the grace that had been shown, felt that I needed to be ministering somehow.

And so, you know, through a long story that we can get into, some other point, here we are.

Well, praise God. And uh, just out of curiosity, was the fundamentalist background that you were part of also, as it is commonly, unfortunately, not always, but is commonly vehemently anti -Calvinist?

Oh yes, yes. Um, yeah, it's actually interesting. When I first started reading the

Bible, I I started in the Minor Prophets, because I wanted to start somewhere that I had not heard of before.

Um, and I was so overwhelmed by the sovereignty of God, that when I got to, when

I got to Bible college, um, and my friends started calling me a Calvinist, I was very upset about it.

Because to me, that was heresy. That was, you're a heretic. You know, you, you didn't believe in evangelism. You just waited for people to come into church.

Like, it was just, um, yeah. So I was raised in a very anti -Calvinistic background, at least from what was preached in the pulpit.

Well, after you had become a believer, after the, by the

Lord's mercy and grace, and His miraculous work of regeneration in your heart, how and when did you come to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, otherwise known as Reformed theology, and also nicknamed

Calvinism? Yeah, so, um, I became a believer the summer, it was after my junior year, going into my senior year.

And, uh, after my senior year, I started reading the Bible. Like I said,

I was reading the Minor Prophets a lot. Um, my freshman year of college came,

I was a music major at the time. And, of course, um, in a Bible college in the South, um, the

King James only controversy is a big thing, especially back then. And, um,

I found out that our school, um, offered the biblical languages, and I just was like,

I need those. And so I switched my major. Well, in that time, I met a pastor who was retiring, and he asked if he could give me a box of books that he thought would be helpful for ministry.

And I said, sure. And, uh, so he sent me a box, and it included Edwards and Spurgeon.

Um, it had scrolls, the holiness of God. Um, and so it was through the kindness, you know, the

Lord sovereignly, you know, directing this pastor to send me books. I didn't even hardly know the guy.

But, you know, I read Spurgeon sermons, and I was reading holiness of God, and it was just completely affirming what

I was finding in the text. And at that point, my, between my freshman and junior, and, uh, sophomore year of college,

I knew that I, I loved the doctrines of grace. Did that have any bad backlash with anyone in your family?

I, I think my father struggled with it quite a bit at first.

Um, I think that he has, he, he definitely, um, affirms many of the doctrines of grace now.

Um, the bigger backlash I had was among, uh, my friends who, you know, were strongly against Calvinism at the time.

But did they finally at least come to tolerate it? Well, in some instances,

I had to find new friends. Um, but yeah, I mean, my very best friend was adamantly against it for a while.

And, uh, eventually he came around, and he and I, we were roommates all through college, all through seminary.

Um, he's a missionary now, and, you know, so the Lord used it in both our lives, and used each other to, uh, to guide us down that road.

Great. Well, uh, our email address, if anybody has a question for our guest today,

Kenny Hilliard is C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your questions involve a personal and private matter.

Let's say you have a, a problem with the music that is, uh, included in your worship services.

Obviously, we wouldn't want you to identify your church if that was the case, or any other reason that you think is truly a personal and private matter.

You may feel free to remain anonymous, but if it's just a general question, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Now, the theology of worship is our theme. This is actually something that you teach.

Tell us the capacity and the venue where you teach this theme. Uh, so I've had opportunities to speak on it to different groups.

I haven't had the ability to, or the opportunity yet to formally teach courses on it.

I've dug into it through some Sunday School classes in the past. It certainly is something that we are hoping to get into more as we get involved with more conferences with our music and whatnot.

It is a hope for me to help foster a community of worship songwriters and whatnot who are thinking carefully about what it means to worship.

And it's more than music, obviously. I will probably get into that. But also, you know, to offer training to churches who want their worship themes to think more about these things as well.

Well, what do you think is the biggest flaw, the greatest flaw, error, you might even want to say sin, in regard to much of the worship music involved in Christianity today?

And this isn't something new. No. Even some of the very old hymns are very unbiblical and corny and sometimes even approaching laughably ridiculous.

I'm not saying that that's the majority, but there are some. I don't think that they're found in the

Trinity hymnal, which is the hymnal that my church uses. But I've heard some goofy, old -fashioned quote -quote hymns that have been played on the radio, have been sung in churches where I had the displeasure of being present.

But tell us about what you think the greatest flaw that you have witnessed and experienced in at least the modern sense of Christian worship music.

Yeah, no, that's a great question. I mean, you know, you're talking about the old hymns. My mind automatically comes to the words, you know, he stands at the portal, he's waiting and watching, you know, as if Jesus hopes that you will come to him, but he's not quite capable of getting you over the hump there.

I mean, to be fair, I think there are a lot of issues with modern worship. I think one of the bigger ones is a foundational problem where there's this misguided notion of what worship is.

So when you talk about worship, at least in our modern Christian American context, you think about the worship experience.

And so when we look at a stir an emotion, it's targeted at getting you to feel a certain way.

And it's unmistakable that music itself does give us emotion.

It does. I mean, that's a component of what music is. But this desire to focus in on creating an emotion and we, you know, you see the big picture of it with the laser lights and the smoke machines and whatnot, but even in smaller context, we talk about it as, how did that make you feel?

Because that is the focus. Worship becomes about me. It becomes about whether it was good enough for me.

And in my opinion, in my understanding of Scripture, worship, and that includes more than just the music.

We usually, when we talk about worship, we think about the music, but of course, if we have a well -rounded theology, we're thinking, this includes the giving of money and the offerings.

This includes the preaching. This includes the reading of Scripture and the service.

It includes the Lord's Supper. Like, it's all there. What the foundation of worship is, in my understanding, is a right picture of who

God is and what He has done, and a right picture of who I am. And that, in some way, is how we glorify

God, by understanding these things. And so, when we talk about music, if we're targeting the lyrics that's stirring an emotion, we're getting at a side item.

The goal should be better understanding who God is and what He has done, or providing a right picture of who we are in that context.

In fact, a right picture of who we are is where we'll pick up, because we have to go to our first break. Okay, yeah.

Tell us about the second song that I'm about to play, and it is titled

Approach. I can't read the entire title. It's okay, Approach My Soul. So this is a

John Newton hymn called Approach My Soul the Mercy Seat, and when we read the words of this hymn,

I mean, it's all about how we are not worthy of God's love, but how

He has promised that He would provide mercy to those who come to Him. And so, it's an overarching song that says, hey, you know, it's like preaching the gospel to yourself.

Okay, heart, we're going to go to the mercy seat, and we're going to go there because He promises that His work is enough.

And so, I really feel like the lyrics of Approach My Soul are very powerful. I'm thankful for that Newton wrote them.

Okay, well, here is Approach My Soul. Plead with this,

I venture nigh. Thou callest burdened souls to Thee, and such,

O Lord, am I. Hey, just hey.

Hey, hey, just hey.

Mercy seat where Jesus answers prayer. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnson, your host of I Interrupt and Siren Radio. If you just tuned in, our guest today for the entire program is

Kenny Hilliard, and he is a part of a duo called

Kenny and Claire, Christian recording artists, and we are discussing the theme, the theology of worship.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

And if you could, Kenny, pick up where you left off. We were discussing how good

Christian music should be giving us, declaring to us, and obviously while we sing, we declare to everyone else in our presence and to God, who

God really is in who we really are. Yeah, yeah. I think a good picture of this,

I think, is seen in something I actually heard in a Piper sermon several years ago, but it kind of stuck with me.

You know, we talk a lot about glorifying God, and that's a beautiful thing, but we can get caught up in vague theological terms.

And so when we ask, what is the glory of God? We kind of get a picture of that in Isaiah, when

Isaiah goes into the temple and he sees the Lord, and he's on his throne, and the angels are saying, holy, holy, holy is the

Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory. And if we kind of break that down, it points out that God's glory is a picture of his holiness.

Like, when we see his holiness, the result is his glorification.

And so if we're going to rightly see who God is, we're gazing into the beauty of his holiness.

Then the right response, when we consider who we are, is to recognize our own unholiness and our own unworthiness.

And I think that that is a lacking theme in a lot of the music that is, say, popular in our culture.

Well, I'm going to play a third song for our listeners today, and this song is titled,

O for a Faith. Why don't you set this song up for us? Yeah, O for a Faith is actually a really great hymn.

So we have, in our songwriting, we have an old hymnal from the 1890s, and it has no music in it.

It's just the lyrics. And as we're reading the words of this hymn, it's just overwhelming thinking about...

What's the best way to put it? We're longing for a faith that's not going to shrink from the difficult things that face us.

It's not going to shrink from the strife, and it somehow considers it all joy, even when we suffer.

And this was just a marked distinction from what is often chipper worship music.

The goal is to remind us that, yes, this is hard, yes, there is difficulty, but we should long for that faith that doesn't shrink from the difficult things.

Well, here we go folks. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did the first time I listened. O for a

Faith. Up beneath the chastening rod.

But Emma can lean upon his pride.

He finds more from tempest's rage without.

That when in danger, loathes no fear.

In darkness, feels no doubt. A faith that keeps the narrow way.

Till life's last spark is fled. And with a pure and heavenly ray, lights up a dying bed.

Give me such a faith as this, and then whatever may come.

I taste even now the hallowed bliss of my eternal home.

I taste even now the hallowed bliss of my eternal home.

Well, that was another breathtaking song, and again, you and your wife,

Claire, are certainly gifted. Thank you, brother. Just out of curiosity, what would the

Independent Fundamentalist Baptist folks think of your style of music?

Because I know there is a variety of levels of animosity that Independent Fundamentalists have.

Some have no problem with modern music if it's tastefully done and doesn't sound like a rock concert.

Some of those folks despise anything that sounds contemporary, and some of them fail to recognize that some of the melodies of the hymns that they love to sing sound very much like barbershop quartets, which could have been found in vaudeville shallows in the early 1900s that had strippers involved.

Yeah, well, even some of the hymns from the Reformation era used bar songs, because that's what the people knew.

Yeah, there is a variety of spectrums. I remember, so I served for a time as a senior pastor in the mountains of North Carolina and had a pastor's meeting one time with a group in our association, and one guy decided that the topic of conversation for that time should have been, what is a satanic drumbeat?

So it happened. I think that the response that we've gotten more, especially when we're doing our

Kickstarter and whatnot, has been that some people are angry from that crowd that we're actually changing the hymns a little more than the style of music.

You know, but I'm sure it's there as well. But yeah, the bigger thing I've gotten is you shouldn't touch them at all, which is unfortunate, because our point is they're not being used, and our goal is to bring them back into use but to do it in an organic way, so it doesn't feel like, here's an old song we've left a happy melody on, here you go, you know.

But yeah, we run into some of that. And tell us about your own philosophy of music, even in the

Reformed faith, even amongst conservative Reformed Christians and pastors and churches, there is a difference of opinion.

I happen to be someone who, although I love certain kinds of music that could be rightfully considered performances,

I love going to Christian concerts, and when

I'm enjoying music, whether secular or Christian, outside the context of a formal, gathered, corporate worship service,

I have more liberty and much wider a spectrum in my taste of the styles of music.

I have no problem listening to John Cooper in a bar, or just in my house, or wherever else, or going to a

John Cooper concert. In fact, I have interviewed John Cooper, and if anybody wants to listen to his interview that I conducted with him, you can go to iamsharperdesignradio .com

and type John Cooper in the search engine, and that will come up. It might be under John L.

Cooper, which is his middle initial, but there are styles of music, and I wouldn't even include

John as much as I enjoy it, that I would not be comfortable having played in a worship service.

And one of the reasons is, when we're in a worship service, I think that congregations are the ones who are supposed to be singing and worshiping, and not sitting back as spectators and as fans in an audience, merely listening and observing.

So what are your thoughts? Yeah, no, I can agree with that. Yeah, so, you know, the album is obviously produced as an album.

You're going to listen to it a little bit differently than you would, you know, expect at a

Sunday morning service. I can tell you that in my leadership of Sovereign Grace Church, when we select the songs on Sunday morning, our goal is that it is congregational, that it is something that the congregation can sing, because in my understanding, our time of worship, you know, we're doing the

Hebrews 12 thing. We're stirring one another up to love and good works, and it serves me to hear the congregation singing the truth of who

God is and who we are, and it serves the congregation to hear us, and it should not be a spectator thing.

And so, our Sunday morning services at Sovereign Grace are a little more pulled back. We don't have big solos or anything like that, just because it just doesn't seem to serve very well.

I don't feel like, you know, at that point, it's really congregational worship. It's my job is to stand here and watch you do your thing.

And so I do agree that on the Lord's Day in the service, it should be that way.

Outside of the context for the gathering, then I think that there's a little more leeway for performance and whatnot, but yeah.

Okay, well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and please, folks, be patient. The midway break is longer than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because the

FCC requires of them to localize their station to Lake City, Florida, and that includes all of their programming, including

Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio. So while they do that, while they air their own public service announcements and other local things, we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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So please keep them happy. Respond to them, at least by saying thank you, and also send in questions for Kenny Hilliard on the theology of worship.

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We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday September 30th through Saturday October 2nd.

The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including

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More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's g3conference .com.

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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Before I return to my interview with Kenny Hilliard of the musical duo

Kenny and Claire, I just have some very important announcements to make. First of all, please keep praying for my brother

John. I thank all of you in the listening audience who have been reassuring me over the last several months that you have indeed been lifting my brother

John up to the Lord's throne of grace and prayer as he continues to battle with cancer and critical stage emphysema in a hospital in Denton, Texas.

Some of you may have heard my most recent update, very grim. The doctor told him that he has at best six months to live.

I would ask of you to pray that the Lord extends his life, perhaps even miraculously heals him completely so that he has many more years of life on this earth.

And I also ask of you, most importantly, to give me the full assurance that my brother

John is truly saved. He did give me or send me an encouraging, a very encouraging message on the internet through Facebook Messenger.

He sent me a message telling me that he is turning to Christ every day and asking him if today is the day that he is brought off this earth, that the

Lord brings him into his arms and into his kingdom where he may worship him wondrously for eternity, as he put it.

I praise God for those words. Please pray that John continues to manifest genuine faith coming from a new heart and that I can have full assurance that he is headed for heaven whenever the

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click support, then click click to donate now if you really love the show and don't want it to disappear.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Also, if you are not a member of a local

Bible -believing church, a theologically sound, biblically faithful church, I have lists of churches all over the world and I may be able to help you find a church no matter where on the planet

Earth you live. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I Need a Church in the subject line. Also, folks, please remember if you give to Iron Trap and Zion Radio, I never want any of my listeners to siphon money away from the regular giving that they're accustomed to their own local church where they are a member in order to give to us.

Please never do that. One of the main reasons I started this show is to be a friend, a helping hand, a platform, an extension of the local pastor and the local church.

Just as I am interviewing today, Kenny Hilliard, the worship pastor at Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee.

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So please never siphon money away from your local giving in order to give to us and never put your family in further peril financially if you're really struggling to survive by giving to Iron Trap and Zion Radio at this time.

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We are really in urgent need of your help. Also folks, if you are a man in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor, an elder, and by the way

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ChrisArnson at gmail .com and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Our guest speaker this year is going to be

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, a man who I truly believe, without fear of sinful exaggeration, flattery, or hyperbole,

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If you would like to attend this Pastor's Luncheon, this free Pastor's Luncheon, send me an email to ChrisArnson at gmail .com

and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full program has been and will continue to be

Kenny Hilliard. He is worship pastor at Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee, and he is half of the duo with his wife,

Claire, called Kenny and Claire, and we are discussing the theology of worship. If you have a question, our email address is

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Kenny, what are some of the essential elements, more of the essential elements,

I should say, that you believe should be included or even must be included in worship music in order for it to be appropriate for worship?

That's a really good question. Sorry about losing you there for a minute. I think what's critical, and actually listening to some of the things

Bob Coughlin has said has helped me in this as well, is that new music really does need to be simple.

We want everybody within the congregation to be able to be involved, and that's a practical thing, but it's also a theological thing.

We want this to be for the body. We don't want this to just be for the trained musicians. Again, getting back into that during one another up to love and good works, and there is a practical issue there, too.

There can be a tendency in some really strong theological worship to be so complex that it's really hard when you're in a small church context and your musicians are hobbyists, that they can replicate it and use it.

So I think that part of serving the church is making certain that the music is something that they can use, because that's the goal is to get these truths into the minds and hearts of those who are part of the congregation.

So I think that that is a critical element. You know, along as we think about...as

we think about what key do we put a song into is, well, where can most people sing?

Again, the nature of trying to write music for the church really needs to serve the body and to be useful to the whole body, instead of, in some sense, showing off.

And one thing that Bob Coughlin gets at, too, it needs to be theologically rich.

But one tendency can be that we try to put all of our theology into one song.

And so trying to keep the theological point we're trying to make consistent and simple allows it to better get into the heart and mind of those who are going to be singing it.

And this is really the critical nature of music in worship. You know, I love to preach.

I love to teach. But in preaching and teaching, generally speaking, people are going to remember two to five percent of what

I say. But there's just this mysterious nature about the way God has created us to sing, that the music sticks.

And so part of serving is to get into the nature of how He's designed music.

And like, so when I was a young man, I got into a bluegrass band with our church, and we served old folks homes, giving them church services when they couldn't have them.

And I'll never forget all of the people with Alzheimer's and dementia who would never remember your name, would greet you for the first time every five minutes.

But as soon as we started singing hymns that they knew, they knew all the words.

They knew the melodies, because it had stuck. It had sunk in. And so thinking about how we package the theology so that it's easy to remember and can be part of just the daily life of people who need these truths, and will sing them in their hearts as they stick, is part of that,

I think, biblical element of how we look at writing music for the Church. And we are going to play our next song by you and your wife from your upcoming album by Kenny and Claire.

First of all, what is the title of the album? So the album title is Are You Weary? Are You Weary is the title track of that.

Is that the one you have next? Actually, that's the song I'm going to play. Okay, fantastic. Actually, an interesting thing about this song is that the lyrics for the song were originally written in either

Latin or Greek. There's some disagreement historically on that. In the 700s by a guy named

Stephen of Marsalvis. And an English gentleman in the 1800s took those lyrics and translated them into English.

And one of the things that we love about trying to bring, again, these older hands back is we're trying to sing along with the

Church through the ages. I just think about singing the same truth as that great cloud of witnesses is cheering us on.

And of course, the original title for this was Art Thou Weary, Art Thou Languid.

And it had words like girden in it, which means present or prize.

And so we did have to update some of the language, but I hope, and it's our goal, that it feels organic and that it maintains the same theological message as the original.

Okay, great. Well, here it is, All Who Are Weary. Are you weary?

Heavy, heavy laden.

If I fall, what have I to gain?

Many sorrows, many labors, many pains.

If I still hold closely to Him, what has

He at last? Sorrow vanquished, labor ended, torn and passed.

Are you weary? Heavy laden.

Holding your burden, might

He spread. Seen following, keeping, struggling, is

He sure to bless you? Saints, apostles, prophets, martyrs, answer the end.

Praise God, another breathtaking song by Kenny and Claire.

The complaint that is often heard by those who are diligent to preserve theological purity in Christian music, the complaint often heard is that the music very often recorded by today's artists is man -centered.

How do we approach this since we don't want to center our music on us, but at the same time, we are rejoicing and we are singing with praise and thanksgiving and gratefulness to God for things that He has done for us and things that He has done to us and the ways that He has transformed us and rescued us and had mercy on us and saved us.

So how do we approach this subject without the music sounding human -centered?

Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, we didn't originate all the lyrics to Are You Weary, but I think it exemplifies that in a bit in the sense of it relates to the struggle that the congregation singing is probably going through.

But as it does so, it's continually redirecting the eyes back to Christ, back to His work.

And you see that in a really good hymn that's put out by the folks at Getty Music, Yet Not I, But Christ Can Me, which is, of course, quoting

Paul. The whole point is looking back to what

He's done. I think you also find that in the Psalms, where the psalmist may start, particularly in lament, will be like, you know,

Lord, where are you? My enemies are mocking me. I don't understand what's going on.

You know, are you deaf? Like, can you hear me? But at the end of the lament, there's always that turn back to, but you have saved us in the past.

You have done this work. You have made these promises. This is who you are, and so I will trust in what you have said you will do instead of what

I'm seeing at the moment. I think a lot about...

Luther talks about men who are turned in on themselves, and there's a danger of growing so personally introspective that we lose sight of God's work altogether, and I think that's a danger that can happen in some forms of modern worship.

We have a question from Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, and Arnie asks, whenever music is discussed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a key question comes up, and not all the guests have been perfectly harmonious in their answers.

I was wondering what your thoughts are on whether or not there is truly neutrality in musical instrumentation, rhythm, and melody when it comes to music that we bring into the church.

I happen to believe that there is not neutrality with all rhythm and melody, and that some melodies are too reminiscent of sensual emotion and other things that are not appropriate to attach to Christian music.

Obviously, there is other types of sound such as the real raucous death metal and punk that would tend to drown out any kind of attention to the lyrics in the songs and also wind up being much more of a performance than a conduit to worship.

What is your opinion on this? I think that's a very good question.

I think just by sheer fact that music itself is designed to elicit an emotional response can inform us that there are, let's say, forms of music that are designed to make you angry, designed to just make you feel certain ways, and even in our music we may choose a minor key to get a sense of that emotional tension that comes from living in a sinful world yet singing glorious truths about God.

So I don't want to say that there is such thing as complete neutrality, but I think that a lot of times that lack of neutrality is what happens as the writer is writing the song.

What is the goal? What is the point? And again, that's where we get back into, are the emotions themselves the goal or not?

Now, is it... I think there is a danger, or can be a danger, in selecting forms of music for corporate worship that lend themselves either to sensuality or to anger.

You know, I personally would not suggest, you know, like death metal is a great way to lead worship within a congregation, but I also wouldn't suggest that there's some, you know, reformed...

We'll talk about John Cooper's music. He, a lot of times, is getting at the angst of dealing with sin and the struggles that happen within the heart, and so his music has a tendency to fit that.

So I wouldn't say that because he's playing in what we might consider a more angry style of music, that it is somehow evil or sinful.

I think there is a place for it, again, as long as you're getting at what is the point of writing the song.

And in that vein, just like there's no such thing as a neutral book that's being authored by an author, there's no neutral song being written by a songwriter.

The writer has something in mind when they're penning what they pen. So I hope that gets at it.

If you have any clarifying questions, you know, maybe I can make that more clear if I'm being unclear.

Well, thank you, Arnie. Feel free, as Kenny said, if you'd like to follow up with another clarifying question, that's fine.

We have Mary in Cork, Ireland, who says, I am really enjoying this interview.

It is very encouraging to hear these old hymns. I love how Christ is exalted as He should be.

God bless you both in this ministry. There's no question there, just a word of encouragement.

That is such a blessing, such a blessing to hear. You know, when you're putting this together, and again, you have these intentions, you always hope that it comes across in what you create.

So thank you so much, all the way from Ireland. What an encouragement. By the way, since we do have listeners overseas, in addition to those living in the 50 states of the

United States, how do our listeners, no matter where they live, get a hold of your music?

So right now, we have two singles that are on all streaming platforms and any place that you can buy digital music.

That would be Approach My Soul and Are You Weary? We have another single, which is the song that you'll end with, called

Is There Peace? That will be coming out as a single on streaming platforms soon.

I don't remember the exact date. But the full album will come out in September.

We're also on all streaming platforms. We try to stay involved in trying to encourage our listeners with either lyrics that we're working on, on the music that we're continuing to write, or good quotes from the

Puritans, or just ways that, in real life, we can point ourselves and our listeners back to Christ.

And that would be Kenny and Claire on, like I said, the social media platforms. That kind of thing.

I did want to say, we are booking nights of worship, conferences, we do houses and churches, really anywhere that we might be able to serve.

We're booking those for the rest of the year, and we're also looking at next year. We're available through KennyandClaireMusic at gmail .com.

KennyandClaireMusic at gmail .com. And Claire has an E at the end. C -L -A -I -R -E.

That's correct. There are a number of ways to spell that name. C -L -A -I -R -E.

We're going to our final break right now. If anybody would like to join us, please send in an email, because we are rapidly running out of time.

So please send an email. Our email address again is ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name, city and state of residence, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Kenny Hilliard and more on the theology of worship.

Hello, dear ones.

My name is Justin Peters, and my friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

United States. We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th, through Saturday, October the 2nd, on the theme,

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be speaking there, along with over 20 other speakers, including

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Votie Balcombe, Joel Beakey, and James White.

For details, visit g3conference .com. That's G, the number 3, g3conference .com.

Please join Chris Arnson and me, September 30th, through October the 2nd, at G3 2021.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time. I have to tell you, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for more than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment. How much joy are you for that? You don't have to tell me anything.

We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air, so I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 p .m.

Eastern Time, at ironsharpensironradio .com. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back, this is

Chris Arnzen, and our guest today has been and will continue to be for the final minutes of the show,

Kenny Hilliard, who is half of the duo, the Christian recording duo, along with his wife,

Claire, Kenny and Claire, and we have been discussing the theology of music.

If you have a question, please send it in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com.

chrisarnzen at gmail dot com. Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence. Give us some background on Is There Peace, the final song that we're going to have time to play today on your new album.

Yeah, so it's actually, it's a hymn that we found in our, like I said, we have a number of old hymnals, and it has this kind of formula that's similar to Psalm 136, where every other phrase is a reassurance that mercy endures forever, or that fast love endures forever.

In this one, there are questions of doubt, and then there's a short response, which should be a reminder of Christ's faithfulness to His people, and it kind of spoke to us, because we have, especially here in Nashville, as we interact with other

Christian musicians and whatnot, we have a number of friends who are going through deconstruction. I'm sure you've heard that plenty of times.

And I want to be fair, I'm sure a lot of times they bring up questions that are legitimate questions, but a lot of it seems to center around the idea that the promises of Scripture are simply trite statements, and therefore not enough for their experience.

And so, we just wanted to find a song that a congregation could sing that is a reminder, yes, life is difficult, but it is enough that Christ will care for us, that He will take care of us.

And it's probably not going to present itself in this life. We're waiting for a

Kingdom that's coming, and we do have suffering promised in this life. We're supposed to count it all joy somehow.

I mean, it's not easy. We should count it all joy with all the various trials and tribulations.

So, that kind of is the nature of this song, an attempt to remind us of the truth, even in the midst of difficulty.

Well, here is that final song. Is there peace? And I hope that you are all blessed.

Is there peace in this dark world of sin?

The blood of Jesus whispers peace within.

Is there peace with many duties pressed?

To do the will of Jesus, this is rest.

If it is enough, our struggles soon shall cease.

Jesus calls us to heaven's perfect peace.

Is there peace with sorrows surging round?

In Jesus' embrace, only calm is found.

Is there peace with loved ones far away?

In Jesus' keeping, we are safe.

If it is enough, our struggles soon shall cease.

Jesus calls us to heaven's perfect peace.

Peace, perfect peace.

Peace, perfect peace.

Peace, perfect peace.

Peace. Is there peace with the future all unknown?

Jesus we know, and He is on the throne.

Is there peace with death shadowing us and ours?

Jesus has vanquished death and all its power.

If it is enough, our struggles soon shall cease.

Jesus calls us to heaven's perfect peace.

If it is enough, our struggles soon shall cease.

Jesus calls us to heaven's perfect peace.

Heaven's perfect peace. Heaven's perfect peace.

Well, I want you to have a minute to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before I remind them of how to get in touch with you.

Ultimately, I think that I would love to leave these people with just the fact that as we come to worship, whether it's at home, whether it's in the church, that our worship is again a recognition of who

God is, what He has done, it's targeted at Him, and then the response is looking at us and who we are.

Glorifying God is gazing into the beauty of His holiness, and in doing so should humble us.

And so, as we think about worship, I hope that your audience thinks about worship as unto the

Lord and less about me and how I feel about it.

Amen. And I want to remind you folks, if you want to find out how to book a concert with Kenny and Claire, or if you want to find out where they're performing, where they're having concerts, or if you want to purchase their music, go to KennyandClaire .com,

and don't forget about Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, also known as Sovereign Grace Church of White House, Tennessee, where my former pastor is the new pastor,

Mark Rimaldi, and where my guest today, Kenny Hilliard, is the worship pastor, go to SovereignGraceChurch .net,

SovereignGraceChurch .net. I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today. I hope to meet you at some point in the very near future.

I want to thank everybody who listened today. I want to thank everybody, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I hope you all have a safe and blessed and happy and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater