July 30, 2021 Show with Kenny Hilliard on “The Theology of Worship”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with

your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday

on this 30th day of July 2021.

And I'm thrilled to have a first time guest at the enthusiastic

recommendation of my most recent former pastor, Mark Romaldi,

who was formerly my pastor at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island

in Merrick, New York, where he served for 16 years as one of the two pastors.

Now he has taken a call to Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee, and if you were listening yesterday,

he was my guest yesterday.

Well, my former pastor Mark said to me, you've really got to get

our music or worship pastor, Kenny Hilliard, on your

program.

He is an extremely talented musician, and he and his wife have

a duo titled Kenny and Claire, and they produce

professionally recorded music.

And I am so looking forward to interviewing Kenny Hilliard, who has his THM and

MDiv from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, North Carolina.

And he is, in addition to being the worship pastor at Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee,

a recording artist in Nashville, performing with his wife Claire

as a duo called Kenny and Claire, as I mentioned earlier.

And they have an album released, or releasing, I should say, in September

of rewritten hymns that have fallen out of common use.

And today we are going to be addressing the theme, The Theology of Worship.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to.

Ion Sharpens Ion Radio, Kenny Hilliard.

Thank you, Chris.

Thank you for having me on.

It's been a joy for me to serve with you.

Yes, it is.

And you will no doubt be very blessed there at Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee, hopefully for many,

many years to come.

Mm -hmm.

Well, why don't you, for those of our listeners who failed to listen

yesterday, tell our listeners about Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee.

So Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier is a Reformed Baptist church

at RBNET in

1989, at least.

Right now, it's really a church,

like a

reset,

loving fellowship.

Great.

Well, if anybody wants to get more.

Information about Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee, also known as Sovereign

Grace Church of White House, Tennessee, go to sovereigngracechurch .net,

sovereigngracechurch .net, and you'll have all the details that you need.

And I believe that I am going to start off, before we even get into any

further discussion, and in fact, since you are a first -time

guest, we have a tradition here that we have our first -time guests give a summary

of their salvation testimony.

And if you could do that, that would be great.

Yeah, that would be fantastic.

But before we do that, I wanted to whet the appetites of our listeners by

playing an initial song, and then perhaps you could give it some setup.

Tell us about the beauty.

It's actually, the

melody

is

okay, the information is being conveyed, people want to use

it.

My wife put together a melody for the beauty of the earth.

It's slightly different, this

idea that when a lot of these normal melodies

convey grandeur

and

majesty,

where we

recognize

the melody more accessible, it

will be used more widely, the melody conveys...

Well, here we go.

And here is For the Beauty.

What was the full title?

Because I can only see For the Beauty.

It actually, we just call it For the Beauty.

The original hymn is For the Beauty of the Earth.

Oh, okay, great.

Well, here we go.

I hope...

Beautiful.

My wife, Claire, are certainly talented.

By the way, I just had a curiosity, the photograph on your website, did you two just have an argument before

that photo was taken?

It's supposed to be contemplative, but yeah, it does kind of look...

You know, of

course, you go, you're

trying to think too much.

So yeah, it was a...

Well, the photo looks fine.

I just thought that I'd bring that up.

No, definitely.

I hadn't thought about it, but when you bring it up, I see that.

Well, now, as I hinted at before, since you are a first -time guest, we always

have our first -time guests give a summary of their salvation experience or their testimony,

including what kind of religious atmosphere, if any, they were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

So please provide your story.

Yeah, no, I love getting the opportunity to do that.

So an independent, fundamental Baptist...

Yeah, so I prayed the prayer.

It's actually funny, a lot of people wanted to be saved, and I

think you probably have heard some pastors give the analogy of jumping off the roof of a house into the

dark to a father who's going to.

Rescue or something like that.

No, but I did have a pastor tell me to jump off the roof of a house.

No, I'm kidding.

Okay.

And tell Pastor Grimaldi I forgive him.

I was going to say, is that Mark?

In my context, you know, pastors seem to have used that illustration a lot.

So in my mind, when he asked who wants to be saved, you know, I'm going to jump out of the choir, choir a

lot.

This sounds like an

adventure.

And of

course, and I

would go to my youth pastor and be like, you know, I really like, yeah.

And he says, well, you know, you meant it, didn't you?

And of course, who wants to say, no, I didn't mean it?

You know, of course you say, yeah.

And he goes, well, it's just Satan bothering you.

Don't worry about it.

You're a believer.

That was really the setting that I was raised in.

By the time I got to my junior year of Heist

Canada, doing skate

camps, I

had done things

that are

horrible, not

worth mentioning.

I started trying to make a deal,

things to make me a better person.

I was at

my wit's end.

I was like, what

my attempt?

And

in that moment where I just,

if he hasn't saved

me now, hey, the things

that I used to

hate, but it definitely

stands out in my mind.

I'm grateful for it.

But yeah, that was the time that the Lord got a hold of

me.

Overwhelmed by the grace that I had been shown, I felt that I needed to be ministering.

Well,

praise God.

And just out of curiosity,.

Was the fundamentalist background that you were a part of also, as it

is commonly, unfortunately, not always, but is commonly vehemently anti -Calvinist?

Oh yes, yes.

Yeah, it's actually interesting.

When I first started reading the Bible, that I had not

heard of before, overwhelmed by the sovereignty of God, that

when I got to Bible college, and my friends started

calling me a Calvinist, I was very upset about it.

Because to me, that was heresy.

You're a heretic.

You didn't believe in evangelism.

You just waited for people to come in the church.

Yeah, so I was raised in a very anti -Calvinistic background, at least from what I was told.

Well, after you had become a believer,.

After, by the Lord's mercy and grace, and his miraculous work of regeneration in

your heart, how and when did you come to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace,

otherwise known as Reformed theology, and also nicknamed Calvinism?

Yeah, so

reading

the Bible,

college came, I was a music major at the time, a little

college in the South, the King

James

only college,

and I just was like, I need those.

So I switched my major.

Well, in that time, I met a pastor who gave me

a box of books that he thought would be helpful for ministry.

He sent me a box, and it included Edwards.

It had scrolls, and so it was through the kindness, you know, the Lord's

sovereign books.

I didn't even hardly know the guy, but, you know, I

read Spurgeon's Sermon, and I was reading Holiness of God, and it was just completely

affirming what I was finding in the text,

and I loved it.

Did that have any bad backlash with anyone in your family?

I quite

a bit,

strongly against Calvinism at the time.

But did they finally at least come to tolerate it?

Well, in some instances I had to find new friends, but yeah, I mean, my very best friend

was adamantly against it for a while, and eventually he came around, and he and I, we were

roommates all through college, all through seminary.

He's a missionary now, and, you know, so the Lord used it in both our lives and used each other

to guide us down that road.

Great.

Well, our email address, if anybody has a question for our guest today,

Kenny Hilliard is C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your questions

involve a personal and private matter.

Let's say you have a problem with the music that is

included in your worship services.

Obviously, we wouldn't want you to identify your church if that was the case, or any other reason that you

think is truly a personal and private matter.

You may feel free to remain anonymous, but if it's just a general question, please give us your first name,

city and state, and country of residence.

Now, the theology of worship is our theme.

This is actually something that you teach.

Tell us the capacity and the venue where you teach this.

Theme.

I've had the opportunity yet to formally teach courses

on it.

I've dug into it through some Sunday school classes.

It certainly is something that we are

hoping to get into more as we get involved with more conferences with our music and

whatnot.

It is a hope for me, community of worship

songwriters and whatnot, who are about what it

means to worship.

And it's more than music, obviously.

We'll probably get into

that.

I want their worship teams to think more.

About these.

Well, what do you think is the biggest

flaw, the greatest flaw, error, you might even want to say sin,

in regard to much of the worship music

involved in Christianity today?

And this isn't something new.

No.

Even some of the very old hymns are very

unbiblical and corny and sometimes even approaching laughably

ridiculous.

I'm not saying that that's the majority, but there are some.

I don't think that they're found in the Trinity hymnal, which is the hymnal that my church

uses.

But I've heard some goofy, old -fashioned quote -unquote

hymns that have been played on the radio, have been

sung in churches where I had the displeasure of being present.

But tell us about what you think the greatest flaw that you have witnessed and experienced

in at least the modern sense of Christian worship music.

Yeah, no, that's a great question.

I mean, you know, you're talking about, my mind automatically comes,

he's waiting and watching, so you will

come to him, but he's not quite capable.

I mean, to

be, I think one of the bigger ones,

problem, where this guided

notion of what worship is.

So, when you talk about worship, at least in our modern Christian American

context, you think about the worship,

a lot of the popular writing that's being done, the point of it is to stir an

emotion, getting you to

see the music itself.

I mean, that's a component of what music is.

And we, you

know, you see the big pic, whatnot, but even in smaller,

talk about it as, how did that make you feel?

It becomes about me.

It becomes about whether it was good enough for me.

My opinion includes more than just the

music.

We usually, when we talk about worship, we think about the music, but of course, if we have a well -rounded theology, we're thinking, this

includes the giving of money in the offerings, this includes the preaching, this includes

the reading of scripture,

and what he

has done is how we glorify God, by understanding we're

targeting,

we're getting at a

side of who we

are.

In fact, a right picture of who we are is.

Where we'll pick up, because we have to go to our first break.

Okay, yes.

Tell us about the second song that I'm about to play, and it is titled,.

Approach.

I can't read the entire title.

It's okay, Approach My Soul.

So, this is a John Newton hymn called Approach My Soul, the Mercy Seat,

not worthy of God's love, but how he has promised that he would provide

mercy to those who come to him.

Hey, you know, it's like preaching the gospel to yourself.

Okay, heart, we're going to go to the mercy seat, and we're going to go there because he promised it.

So, I really feel like the lyrics of Approach My Soul

are very powerful.

I'm thankful that Newton wrote them.

Okay, well, here is Approach.

My Soul.

Lord,.

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th, through Saturday, October 2nd, on the theme,

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I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and

singing, including John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and

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For details, visit G3conference .com.

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This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Trip and Siren Radio.

If you just tuned in, our guest today for the entire program is Kenny Hilliard, and he

is a part of a duo called Kenny and Claire, Christian

recording artists, and we are discussing the theme, the theology of worship.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

ChrisArnson at gmail .com.

And if you could, Kenny, pick up where you left off.

We were discussing how good Christian music should be giving us,

declaring to us, and obviously while we sing, we declare to

everyone else in our presence and to God who God really is and who we

really are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's something I actually talk a

lot, glorifying God, and that's a beautiful thing, but

we can get caught up in vague theological terms.

In Isaiah, when he

sees the Lord and he's on

his throne, you kind of

break that down, it points out of his

holiness.

Like, when we see

rightly see who God is, we're gazing into the beauty of his holiness.

Then who we are is to recognize our own unholiness and our own

unworthiness, and I think that that is a lacking theme in a lot of the music

that is, say, popular in our culture.

Well, I'm going to play a third.

Song for our listeners today, and this song

is titled, Oh, For a Faith.

Why don't you set this.

Song up for us?

Yeah.

Oh, For a Faith is actually a really great

hymn.

So, we have an old one from the 1890s,

and it has no

music in it.

It's just thinking about the difficult

things that face us,

even when we suffer.

It reminds us that, yes,

this is hard.

Yes, there is difficulty, but we should long for that.

Well, here we go, folks.

I hope you enjoy it as much as I did the.

First

time I

listened.

Oh, For

a Faith.

Well,

that

was

another

breathtaking

song, and

again,.

You and your wife, Claire, are certainly gifted.

Thank you, brother.

Just out of curiosity, what would the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist

folks think of your style of music?

I know there is a variety of levels of

animosity that Independent Fundamentalists have.

Some have no problem with modern music if it's tastefully done and doesn't sound like a rock concert.

Some of those folks despise anything that sounds contemporary,

and some of them fail to recognize that some of the melodies of the hymns

that they love to sing sound very much like barbershop quartets, which could have been found in

vaudeville shallows in the early 1900s that had strippers involved.

Yeah, well, even some of the hymns from.

The Reformation era used bar songs, because

that's what the people knew in Carolina.

I was meeting one time, and one guy decided that

the topic of conversation was a satanic

drumbeat.

We've gotten more, especially when we're doing our Kickstarter and whatnot,

from that crowd that we're actually changing the hymns

a little more than the style of music.

But I'm sure it's there as well.

But yeah, the bigger thing I've gotten is,

and our goal is to bring them back into use, but to do it in an organic way so it doesn't feel

like, here's an old song we've left a happy melody on, here you go.

But yeah, we run into some of that.

And tell us about your own philosophy of music.

Even in the Reformed faith, even amongst conservative Reformed

Christians and pastors and churches, there is a difference of opinion.

I happen to be someone who, although

I love certain kinds of music that could be

rightfully considered performances, I love going to Christian concerts.

And when I'm enjoying music, whether secular or Christian, outside the context

of a formal gathered corporate worship service,

I have more liberty and much wider a spectrum

in my taste of the styles of music.

I have no problem listening to John Cooper in a car or

just in my house or wherever else, or going to a

John Cooper concert.

In fact, I have interviewed John Cooper.

And if anybody wants to listen to his interview that I conducted with him, you can go to www .ionsherpensineradio .com and

type John Cooper in the search engine, and that will come up.

It might be under John L. Cooper, which is his middle initial.

But there are styles of music, and I wouldn't

even include John as much as I enjoy it, that I would not be comfortable having

played in a worship service.

And one of the reasons is when we're in a worship service, I

think that congregations are the ones who are supposed to

be singing and worshiping and not sitting back as spectators

and as fans in an audience merely listening and observing.

So what are your thoughts?

Yeah, no, I can agree with that.

Yeah, so obviously produced as an album, you're going to

listen to it a little bit differently than you would a Sunday morning service.

I can tell you that the Sovereign Grace Church

on Sunday morning, our goal is that it is congregational.

You can sing, because in my understanding, our

time of worship, you know, we're doing the Hebrews 12 thing.

We're stirring one another up to love and

good work.

The congregation hears us, and it should not be a spectator.

Our Sunday morning services at Sovereign Grace are a little more pulled back.

We don't have big solos.

It just doesn't go very well.

I don't feel like, you know, at that point, it's really congregational worship.

It's my job is to stand here and watch you do your thing.

I do agree that on the Lord's Day in

the service for the gathering,

then I think that there's a little more leeway for performance.

And whatnot.

Okay, well, we have to go to our midway break right now, and please, folks, be patient.

The midway break is longer than the other breaks, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us

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Hi,

I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the G3

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The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all.

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Peters, Darrell Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, and James White.

More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

For details, visit g3conference .com.

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Chris Arnson and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3

2021.

This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched.

In 2005.

The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB and tell the publishers you heard about them

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Go to nasbible .com.

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If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnzen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco

demonstrating the reliability of scripture.

To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the

genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition

1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims

to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody's ever made it accessible to the public

in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs,

baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith,

joy, and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at

gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com or

call them at 908 -996 -7654.

That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant.

Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register,.

Flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common?

They all require training, assessments, and certifications.

But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent.

My name is A .M. Brewster.

I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have

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That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists.

We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents God called and created them to be.

We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of

dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com.

Word.

An additional 9 ,000 come annually to Harvey Cedars as families, couples,

singles, men, women, pastors, seniors, and missionaries.

90 miles from New York City, 70 miles from Philly, and 95 miles from Wilmington,

and easily accessible, scores of notable Christian groups frequently plan conferences at

Harvey Cedars, like the Navigators, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Campus

Crusade, and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.

Find Harvey Cedars on Facebook or at hcbible .org.

hcbible

.org.

Call 609 -494 -5689.

609 -494 -5689.

Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's.

A place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and

together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at.

Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402.

That's 516 -599 -9402, or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org.

Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World

Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow

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That's getworldnow .com.

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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,

coffee shops, and local hangouts, Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people

who need Jesus.

We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York, by engaging young people in the lifelong

journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to

youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.

Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385

-8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333.

Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org.

Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your

day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpen's Iron podcast.

I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.

He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key

doctrines of the Christian faith.

I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet

where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time,

and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer

and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron

Sharpen's Iron financially.

Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.

All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.

That's ironsharpensironradio .com.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past to

present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please, folks, never forget that.

Solid -ground -books .com is a primary, a premier, a vital

sponsor of this broadcast.

If they were to discontinue their ad campaigns, we would likely go off the air, barring a miracle from

God financially.

So please go to solid -ground -books .com frequently and purchase generously, always mentioning

that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And please also remember, you're not only going to be doing solid -ground -books .com an enormous

favor by purchasing books from them, and you're not only going to be doing us at Iron Sharpens Iron

Radio an enormous favor by keeping a very important advertiser happy, you're going to be doing

yourself and anyone for whom you are purchasing gifts from solid -ground -books

.com an enormous favor of incalculable value because they bring back into print and

publish nothing but the very finest and reformed Christian literature dating back to the Protestant

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So please go to solid -ground -books .com today, purchase generously, and always

mention that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Before I return to my interview with Kenny Hilliard of the

musical duo Kenny and Claire, I just have some very important announcements to make.

First of all, please keep praying for my brother John.

I thank all of you in the listening audience who have been reassuring me over the

last several months that you have indeed been lifting my brother John up to the Lord's

throne of grace and prayer as he continues to battle with cancer and critical stage emphysema

in a hospital in Denton, Texas.

Some of you may have heard my most recent update, very grim.

The doctor told him that he has at best six months to live.

I would ask of you to pray that the Lord extends his life, perhaps

even miraculously heals him completely so that he has many more years of life

on this earth.

And I also ask of you, most importantly, to give me the full assurance that my brother

John is truly saved.

He did give me or send me an encouraging, a very encouraging

message on the internet through Facebook Messenger.

He sent me a message telling me that he is turning to Christ every day and

asking him if today is the day that he is brought off this earth,

that the Lord brings him into his arms and into his kingdom where he may

worship him wondrously for eternity, as he put it.

I praise God for those words.

Please pray that John continues to manifest genuine faith

coming from a new heart and that I can have full assurance that he is headed for heaven whenever the

Lord chooses to take him off this earth.

I really appreciate it.

Also, folks, if you love Iron Trump and Zion Radio, you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to

irontrumpandzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.

You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

We are in urgent need of your help.

We have been hurt very badly financially.

The coronavirus pandemic hysteria has hurt so many people in our

audience, either having them

radically reduced in their finances or losing their jobs altogether

or losing their businesses altogether.

Therefore, the giving has gone down significantly.

Some listeners who give, give less.

Some have ceased to give until they have a better financial

situation.

Please help us replenish that which has been lost.

Please go to irontrumpandzionradio .com, click support, then click click to donate now if you really love the show and

don't want it to disappear.

If you want to advertise, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

As long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what we believe, you don't have to believe exactly as I do, but

you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what I believe, then send me

an email today and put advertising in the subject line.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Also, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, a theologically sound, biblically faithful church,

I have lists of churches all over the world, and I may be able to help you

find a church no matter where on the planet earth you live.

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

Also, folks, please remember if you give to Irontrumpandzionradio, I never want

any of my listeners to siphon money away from the regular giving that they're accustomed to to their own local church where they are a

member in order to give to us.

Please never do that.

One of the main reasons I started this show is to be a friend, a helping hand,

a platform, an extension of the local pastor and the local church.

Just as I am interviewing today, Kenny Hilliard, the worship pastor at Sovereign Grace

Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee.

I never intended, nor do I ever want, any local pastor or

church harmed in any way by this show, which would include financially.

So please never siphon money away from your local giving in order to give to us, and

never put your family in further peril financially if you're really struggling to survive by giving

to Irontrumpandzionradio at this time.

Those two things are commands of God in scripture, providing for your church and providing for your family.

Providing for my radio show is not a command of God, obviously.

So please only give if you are blessed financially above and

beyond your ability to obey those two commands.

Please, if you do have extra money collecting interest, and you have extra money for recreational and trivial purposes,

and you love this show and you don't want it to go off the air, please give today.

The website again is Irontrumpandzionradio .com.

Click support, then click to donate now.

We are really in urgent need of your help.

Also folks, if you are a man in ministry leadership, whether you are a

pastor, an elder, and by the way, I think those are the same office, a deacon, a parachurch

leader, as long as you are a man in ministry leadership, and you'd like to attend the next

Irontrumpandzionradio pastor's luncheon, which is absolutely free of charge, coming up on

Monday, September 27th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, please send me an

email chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put pastor's

luncheon in the subject line.

Our guest speaker this year is going to be Dr. Conrad Mbewe, a man who I truly

believe, without fear of sinful exaggeration, flattery, or hyperbole, I

truly believe he is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth.

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa.

If you would like to attend this pastor's luncheon, this free pastor's luncheon, send me an email to chrisarnson at

gmail .com, and put pastor's luncheon in the subject line.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full program has been, and will continue to be, Kenny Hilliard.

He is worship pastor at Sovereign Grace Church in Greenbrier, Tennessee, and he is half of

the duo with his wife Clare, called Kenny and Clare, and we are discussing

the theology of worship.

If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com, give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA.

Kenny, what are some of the essential elements, more of the essential elements, I should say,

that you believe should be included, or even must be included, in worship music in

order for it to be appropriate for.

Worship?

A really good question that's helped

me in this as

well is to

be, we want everybody within the congregation to be able to be

involved.

And that's a practical thing, but it's also a theological thing.

We want this to be for the body.

We don't want this to just be for the trained musicians.

Again, getting back into that, during one another, up to love and good works, and

there is a practical issue there, too, in

some, to be so connected, and your

musicians authenticate it

and use it, that the music

is to get these truths into the minds and hearts.

I think that that is a critical

thing.

Think

about, again, the

nature of trying to write music for the church really needs to serve the body and to be useful to them.

And one thing

that Bob Coughlin gets at, to be

theologically

written into one song, trying

to keep,

to better get into the heart and mind of those who are going to be singing it.

And this is really the critical nature of, I love

to teach, but in preaching and teaching,

generally speaking, people are going to remember a

tedious nature about the way God has created us to sing, that the music's

nature of

how he's designed

music.

So when I

was a young

man,

giving them

church, thinking about how we,

theology, so that it's easy to

remember and can be, need these

true elements of how.

And we are going to play our next song by you and your wife

from your upcoming album by Kenny and Claire.

First of all, what is the title of the album?

So the album title is Are You Weary is the title track of that.

Is that the one you have next?

Actually, that's the song I'm going to play.

Okay, fantastic.

Actually, an interesting thing is

that originally written in either Latin or Greek, there's some disagreement historically

by a guy named Stephen.

And an English gentleman in the 1800s took those lyrics and turned them into, translated them into English.

And one of the things that we love about trying to bring, again, these older hens

back is we're trying to search through the ages.

I did just think,

and it had words like gird to update

some of the language, but.

Okay, great.

Well, here it is.

All

you,

all

who

are

weary.

Praise

God.

Another

breathtaking

song

by Kenny and

Claire.

The complaint that is often heard by those

who are diligent to preserve theological purity

in Christian music, the complaint often heard is

that the music very often

recorded by today's artists is man -centered.

How do we approach this sense?

We don't want to center our music on us, but at the same time,

we are rejoicing and we are singing with praise and thanksgiving

and gratefulness to God for things that he has done for us than things that he has done to us

and the ways that he has transformed us and rescued us and had mercy on us and saved us.

So how do we approach this subject without being, without the music sounding human -centered?

Yeah, I think,

are you weary?

But I think it exemplifies that and it relates to the struggle

that the congregation singing is probably going through.

Directing the eyes back.

You see that in a really good,

by the folks at Getty Music, Yet Not I, But Christ Can Me, which is of course, quoting Paul, to

what he's done.

I think you also find that in the Psalms, where the psalmist may start, particularly in lament,

you know, Lord, where are you?

My enemies are mocking me.

I don't understand what's going on.

You know, are you deaf?

Like, can you hear me?

But at the end of the lament, you have

done this work.

You have made these promises.

I think a lot

about, talks about men who are turned in on

themselves,

introspective, that we lose sight of God's work altogether, and I think that's a

danger that can.

We have a question from Arnie.

In Perry County, Pennsylvania, and Arnie asks, whenever

music is discussed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a key question comes up, and

not all the guests have been perfectly harmonious in their answers.

I was wondering what your thoughts are on whether or not there is truly

neutrality in musical instrumentation, rhythm,

and melody when it comes to music that we bring into the church.

I happen to believe that there is not neutrality with all

rhythm and melody, and that some melodies are too reminiscent

of sensual emotion and other things that are not appropriate to attach to

Christian music.

Obviously, there is other types of sound, such as the real

raucous death metal and punk that would

tend to drown out any kind of attention to the lyrics in

the songs, and also wind up being much more of a performance than

a conduit to.

Worship.

What is your opinion on this?

No, I think that's a very good question.

I think that just by sheer fact that music itself is designed to elicit

emotions, forms of music

that are designed to make you angry, designed to just make you feel certain ways,

and even in our music to

get a sense of that emotional tension that comes from living in a sinful world yet

singing.

So, I don't want to say that there is complete

neutrality, but I think that a lot of time,

lack of neutrality is what happens.

What is the goal?

What is the point?

And again, that's where we get back into, are the emotions themselves the goal or not?

Now, is it a danger

themselves,

you

know, like death metal is a great way to lead worship within a congregation?

We'll talk

about John Kuhn and the

struggles that happen within the heart, and so his music has a tendency to fit that.

So, I wouldn't say that it's more angry

than it is somehow.

Again, as long as

you're getting at what is the point of writing the

song.

And in that vein, there's no neutral

song being written, but if you have any...

Well, thank you,

Arnie.

Feel free, as

Kenny said,.

If you'd like to follow up with another clarifying question, that's fine.

We have Mary in Cork, Ireland, who says, I am really enjoying this interview.

It is very encouraging to hear these old hymns.

I love how Christ is exalted as he should be.

God bless you both in this ministry.

There's no question there, just a word of encouragement.

That is such a blessing,.

Such a blessing to hear this together.

And again, you have these

so much all the way from Ireland.

By the way, since we do have listeners overseas, in addition to

those living in the 50 states of the United States, how do our listeners, no

matter where they live, get a hold of your music?

So right now, you can

buy digital music.

We have another single, their

piece, that will be coming out as a

single, remember the exact

date.

Full album will come out in September.

We're also on all streaming platforms.

We try to stay involved in trying to encourage them

on the music that we're continuing to write, you know, just

waves and a nice, and

that would be Kenny and social media platforms,

nice of where

that

we might be able to serve

the rest of the year.

And we're also looking at next year.

Kenny and Clare music at

gmail

.com.

Yes.

And Clare has an E at the end.

C -L -A -I -R -E.

That's correct.

Yeah.

There are a number of ways to spell that name.

C -L -A -I -R -E.

Well, we're going to our final break right now.

If anybody would like to join us, please send in an email because we are rapidly running out of time.

So please send an email now, I should say.

Our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, city and state of residence and country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away.

We'll be right back with Kenny Hilliard and more on the theology of worship.

Hello, dear ones.

My name is Justin Peters and my friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and

I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the United States.

We'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday,

September 30th through Saturday, October the 2nd, on the theme, Christ is

supreme over all.

I'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers, including John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Votie

Balcom, Joel Beakey, and James White.

For details, visit g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

Please join Chris Arnson and me September 30th through October the 2nd at G3

2021.

This is Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the New American

Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been

sticking with or switching to the NASB.

I'm Dr. Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia,.

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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor.

Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio has had a long -time.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope

Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher

McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church

in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into

the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and

beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing

of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

That's hopereformedli .net.

Or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa

on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Here's what Gary DeMar, president of American Vision, had to say about Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio recently.

Good to be back.

Chris, I always enjoy our time.

You, I have to say, you're one of the better interviewers out there, and I've been doing this for 30,.

More than 30 years.

Wow, that's some compliment.

How much joy are you for that?

Uh, you don't have to owe me anything.

We're in good shape.

I'm glad you said it on the air,.

So I don't have to brag about myself.

Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, airing live Monday through Friday, 4 to

6 p .m. Eastern time at ironsharpensironradio .com.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com, and see what priceless literary gems from the past

to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor.

Of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and our guest today has been and

will continue to be for the final minutes of the show, Kenny Hilliard,

who is half of the duo, the Christian recording duo, along with his

wife, Claire, Kenny and Claire, and we have been discussing

the theology of music.

If you have a question, please send it in immediately, because we're rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Give us some background on Is There Peace, the final song that we're going to have time to play

today on your.

New album.

Yeah, so it's

actually kind of

4136, that's Love Endures

Forever, to

be a reminder of

here in Nashville as we interact with other Christian musicians and whatnot.

We have a number of friends who are going through deconstruction.

I'm sure you've heard that plenty of times, and I want to be fair, I'm sure a lot of times they bring

up questions that are legitimate questions, but a lot of it seems to be

the idea of simply trite statements, and therefore not

enough.

To find a song

that a congregation could sing, a reminder, yes, life is difficult.

It's

probably not going to present itself in this life.

We're waiting for a kingdom that's coming, and we do have suffering promised in this life.

I mean, it's not easy

on the various trials and tribulations, and so that kind of is the nature of this song, an attempt

to remind us of the truth, even in the midst of difficulty.

Well, here is that final song,.

Is There Peace, and I hope that you are all blessed.

Jesus

whispers

peace within,

this

is

red.

I want

you

to have

a

minute

to

summarize

what

you

most

want

etched

in

the

hearts

and minds.

Of our listeners today before I remind them of how to get in touch with you.

Ultimately, I think

that I would love to

leave is, again, a recognition of who God is,

targeted at Him, and then the response is looking at us and who we are.

Glorifying God is gazing into the beauty of His holiness,

and in doing so should think about worship,

that your audience thinks about worship as unto the Lord and less

about...

Amen, and I want to remind you folks, if you want to find out how to book a concert

with Kenny and Claire, or if you want to find out where they're performing, where they're having

concerts, or if you want to purchase their music, go to KennyandClaire

.com, KennyandClaire, C -L -A -I -R -E .com, and don't forget

about Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, also known as

Sovereign Grace Church of Whitehouse, Tennessee, where my former pastor is the new pastor,

Mark Romaldi, and where my guest today, Kenny Hilliard, is the worship

pastor.

Go to SovereignGraceChurch .net, SovereignGraceChurch .net.

I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today.

I hope to meet you at some point in the very near future.

I want to thank everybody who listened today.

I want to thank everybody, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I hope you all have a safe and blessed and happy and Christ -honoring weekend and Lord's Day,

and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.