July 13, 2006

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

Responding to the Liberty University Debate Email Exchange

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. I should have known it would be an interesting day. I Spent a fair amount of time yesterday afternoon putting together a email to Ergon and Ymir canner as most of you know who would listen to the program we had taken a little time off to be quite honest with you it had become just such a Source of frustration and amazing behavior that I felt it was important to Take some time off.

I was headed to the United Kingdom. I had other ministry responsibilities and Just wanted to let things calm down let the dust settle a little bit and so I had planned for quite some time and talking with Tom Askell to Get back to it when I got back from the United Kingdom and to attempt as Best I could to calmly rationally Ask that we we look at this situation again and that we do so in a meaningful fashion.

I Wrote the letter last night. I sent it to Tom. Tom said I only wish I could hope for a positive response and of course Tom as normal was was correct. I Posted the letter this morning on on my website and on the blog and we've already gotten a number of people who've commented on it and once again, I I Thought to do what was best and right.

I Thought to do so to benefit the people of God. I Believe this subject is a very important subject. It needs to be addressed. I as I travel especially as I engage in apologetic Debate I see more and more how important this issue is.

I'm passionate about it. It is not my only issue. But since it is such a foundational issue since it's an issue that that touches upon how we view God it touches upon how we view the gospel how we present the gospel and Especially I I am firmly convinced that it determines how one engages in apologetics.

There there is a fundamental apologetic difference between a person who? Believes in the autonomy of the human will and these and the subjection of God's will to the autonomous human will there's that there's a completely different way of apologetics this could be practiced by that person a person who believes in the sovereignty of God's will and the dependency of man and the deadness of man and sin and So I Thought to reason with arrogant and emir kanner on The basis of let's do what's best for the people who are going to be watching.

Let's let's do this for the for the church. Interestingly enough and I will be posting everything on the blog this afternoon. In fact, I got the last response to this flurry just a few moments for the program started.

And in fact, I don't think anybody nobody in the the vast studio audience has even heard. The last hours worth or read the last hours worth of emails that have gone back and forth. So they'll be hearing this for the first time.

Interestingly enough the first two responses. One came within 90 minutes. I would say of my sending out the email this morning. And posting on the blog came from emir not from arrogant and that's been somewhat unusual.

I thought maybe Ergon was out of town something like that. But then I started getting emails from arrogant as well. To make a long story short. I had to keep asking are you all saying? That there's no reason to discuss these things.

There's no reason to Seek negotiation. There's no reason to to discuss what's best for the audience. This is just simply The way that it needs to be done and this we're going to insist upon this and that's how it's going to be that's how it's going to happen and I I had to become very poignant say look.

I'm looking for a yes or no answer. Are you saying it's our way or the highway? This is all there is to it and about an hour hour and a half maybe at most ago I Received the following email from Ergon canner dear James.

For the last time are you trying to weasel out of a debate for which we have already agreed? For the last time all caps, are you trying to change the agreed format and rules? For the last time all caps the sake of clarity.

Are you backing out running away or trying to change in midstream a debate for which all parties have already settled? We are preparing to upload your response and the National Liberty Journal readers almost 500 ,000 want to know we stand without fear and without flinching we are ready as This discussion I am done.

I shall be there on Monday October 16th either to debate the topic or lament the fact that your side could not debate without trying to manipulate the proceedings. Let the record show emir and I are still ready to debate as promised.

Jill, please upload this the LTS website copy to dr. Falwell and my website as well EMC. Well, let me just read you my response this is what I sent back. Incredible. Simply incredible. You honestly have no idea how you're behaving.

Do you sir? You have no concept of how childish and immature your bullying tactics are. Is there no one arrogant at Liberty who can take you aside and help you? This is simply incredible. It truly is it is a sad sad day for Liberty University.

That a man who could be so completely beyond reason so deaf the most basic appeals for mature interaction can be quote in charge end quote. Dr. Kanner you fear debate debating me directly that has come out clearly in our correspondence.

You know, you could never survive a scholarly exchange with me on the level of text. You are acting with all this bluster because you know this to be true. This is why you avoid a one-on-one debate.

This is why you avoid a clear thesis. This is why especially this is especially why you avoid cross-examination. I know this, you know this and the fair-minded reader of our exchanges knows this. Your failure to engage any level of conversation since February makes this painfully clear.

Briefly number one it is untrue that we have agreed to the format and rules. To say otherwise is a documented lie. Number two it is untrue that all parties have settled these issues. To say otherwise is a documented lie.

Number three I remind you sir that I have a standing challenge you to face me one-on-one in front of each of your classes to Discuss from the text of scripture its specific teaching on election and predestination.

Anyone standing by that challenge is hard hardly backing out or running away. Any honest minded person can read our exchanges and see the facts. You have acted dishonestly and I call upon you to repent of your actions.

Now as to the debate. Since you do not engage in reasoned dialogue, but instead operate on the I don't care what you said. You will do as I say model. Here's the story number one. I Will be there October 16th.

Number two, dr. Askel will not. He has no intention of being treated like dirt on your shoe. And I have no intention of asking him to endure such childish retorts and dishonesty. When I asked him to join me I believed I was dealing with men of integrity who would behave as Christians.

If I had had any idea of the level to which you would stoop I would never have invited anyone at all to endure such behavior. We had agreed a few weeks ago. That if you did not show some signs of actually being willing to engage an adult and scholarly conversation at this point.

He would not be involved in the debate since then other issues have arisen noted on his blog which only confirmed the wisdom of that decision. Number three I Will debate you both. You have no reason to complain.

You have been trying to tell folks I want to back out and run away for weeks. That's called wishful thinking arrogant. The fact is, you know better I will be there to demonstrate your thesis is heretical that your denial of God to God of the capacity of love with discernment is Unbiblical and illogical and that God is free and sovereign the matter of human salvation.

I have debated in less friendly situations. So it is settled. James White versus the Cantor brothers. Thomas Road Baptist Church, October 16th parliamentary procedure. Thesis is the unintelligible mess you insist upon in which I will use as a springboard to demonstrate the incoherence of synergism and the clarity of God's truth from Scripture.

The two sides get completely equal time. Don't think you get twice as much just because I will be upholding biblical monergism by myself. I will be keeping very careful track of time to ensure faint fairness as will others.

Please forward the name of the person responsible for the facilities. Richard Pierce will need to begin discussions regarding videotaping and providing redundancy so as to preclude any mishaps. Signed James response at 625 p .m.

His time. I guess that would be 325 my time which was about Just a little over half an hour ago. Dear, dr. White good. I am glad to see we shall have the debate. See you then EMC, so there you go. I'm still processing a lot of this myself in the sense that I Honestly honestly never ever thought that someone in Ergon Cantor's position could ever engage in this level of Well simple dishonesty just just just total incapacity to engage in any type of meaningful conversation No matter how you treat the man no matter how kindly you approach him no matter How often you put up with his his his insults and his arrogant dismissal of you it just doesn't matter you're gonna get treated this way and So I am I'm very thankful That that dr. Askew is not going to be exposed to this kind of this kind of situation.

Like I said, I've I've stood outside the The gates the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City. I've stood out in Mesa. I've stood outside the district conventions of Jehovah's Witnesses. I've debated in situations where I was as far as I knew the only Protestant in the room except for one Episcopalian down front and so I I'm an apologist.

This is I'll never forget driving my 1974 Volkswagen bug to Salt Lake City alone one year and As I got into Provo, I turned on the radio to the radio station. I was going to be on the next evening alone Discussing Mormonism live call-in in Salt Lake City, and they had a promo running About the program and they said that tomorrow night.

We're gonna have an anti Mormon Fundamentalist Baptist on the program who's coming up to the conference to pass out literature telling us Mormons about how we're going to hell. Let's give him a warm, Utah.

Welcome. I Don't think Tom's ever ever really wanted to do anything like that or done anything like that. So, you know what? Sadly if Eric and Cantor wants to act like like Mormons or Like Roman Catholics or like other enemies of the faith if he wants to act like them if he wants to act like Robertson Genis acted before our mass debate where he was just mr. Nasty as we've documented the website.

You can read the emails there. That's his privilege. You'll notice I'm not referring to him as brother Cantor anymore Because it doesn't behave like my brother. If that's how he wants to act fine go for it but the fact the matter is there's going to be a whole bunch of folks there and I'm gonna have Half that time and I have seen God's Spirit apply God's Word especially when God's Sovereignty is being exalted in so many situations and so many times.

Let the enemies rage. Let God's Word speak. So I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it and There we'll go so This will all be up on the blog This evening. I'll get it. I'll get it. But well, okay, it'll be on the blog by tomorrow I will try to get up by this evening, but I should learn not to Make promises because you know somebody's tire goes flat or something Who you know?

You can't guarantee such things. So we will We will put that on the blog and you can read it for yourself. It is. It's sad and it's amazing. It's sad and it's amazing that my email this morning could be responded to in such a fast just If you are a supporter of Liberty University Look to your school.

You have got problems. You've got problems there folks. You really do So You know, some people are saying well there there's nothing to let you speak I can't imagine that happening. I Mean that would be such a complete meltdown such a complete Abandonment and and recognition that you know what we cannot We cannot debate this.

We cannot even even allow you to speak if that were to happen, that would be the most amazing videotape of of Armenians gone wild.

Just be amazing. Well the format that they've thrown out. At least you have a Time frame where you are supposed to speak. The only question is this exchange in the middle of parliamentary or is the whole thing supposed to be parliamentary?

No, no, there's you're allowed to to have interrogative questions and.

I have we just we determined what an interrupted question is. That's just it.

I asked the moderator for his rule book and it said his rule book was fairness.

That's why you'll see I'm so so guys behaving the other guys behaving like the British Parliament heckling you the whole time is.

Not fair and fair, but no Interrogatives that there are rules as to how many can be asked and of what nature and whether you want to or not want to accept them see that the problem is. They may want to say the rule book.

I'm going to use is fairness there's at least four books on parliamentary procedure sitting on my desk right now and I will in my opening statement make reference to it and we'll hold them accountable to that those published standards and The fact matter is a whole lot more experience than they do at debate and so if I've got the rule books right there, I'll know it inside and out before October 16th and If they're not if they're if they're not prepared They're gonna have be at a disadvantage because they're not gonna know the system as well as I do so.

Maybe we should have Bill Shishko sitting down front. Oh, I would love to have Bill Shishko there to be perfectly honest with you. There's no no question about it. I I would like to have Bill there and I would like to have him involved because he would.

He would be an excellent person to have involved in that and the irony is I'll be debating him three days later. But I'm sure he'd have no problem in Going over and I will speak to him about this. We'll I'll talk with Bill about the parliamentary procedure and get his his inputs on it and things like that.

So yeah, we'll we'll see what happens with that, but anyway, so there's there's a situation and You know for those who are concerned that's a you know, I'm just gonna be beaten to death by crazed Liberty students.

You got to remember it since this is being put out to all of Liberty's supporters and stuff. They have a very vested interest in at least trying to make it look like They're behaving like Christians. Kanner doesn't think that any of his supporters will ever see the emails, but they will see the debate.

And if you want to see a change in attitude as far as that goes, that's when it's going to happen. So that's that's situation as it as it stands right now.

And and I give you my word right now as soon as I come back with those tapes I am gonna fight like crazy to have DVDs at the conference in Florida, right? Right, and I'll be the first place. They'll be available.

I want to remind everybody what I said last time and that is I am NOT asking people to To go to Lynchburg you say oh, but we want to be there to support you. I appreciate that support us in prayer support us financially support us by coming to the Orlando conference for us by going on the cruise for us.

Especially by coming to the debate against a Barry Barry Lynn. Yeah against Barry Lynn and Time Warp Also known as John Shelby Spong that's where we're gonna need you because you know, I I would much rather be in front of a Liberty Group and in a minority that sexual audience in the minority, so Please mmm, that that would be that'd be very very good.

But yeah support us by being there and then we will Try to find room in the in the conference now for me to discuss The situation and Lord willing Tom can join me in the sense of discussing the whole thing that has led up to it to this particular point and and I hope that we'll have the support of Tom and his church and stuff as well in regards to doing the debate eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number and I have more of the Questions and answers for doctors Patterson and Moller to go over but we also have a number of phone calls since it's been a little while since we actually took any phone calls here on the dividing line and.

Advice on Mormon Outreach Literature and Street Evangelism

So let's start with Tommy in Sacramento. Hi Tommy. Hey James, how's it going? Going good. Hey at the end of the month here. We got a Nellie s temple opening up here in Sacramento. Mm-hmm, and I was planning on spending some time out on the street during the event and was wondering what literature exactly it was that you used to pass out and when you do a Mormon event and also any other tips you might have well, we used to have a extremely wide Selection of LDS literature.

I don't believe that we do at the moment. A lot of our LDS literature is currently out of print and. But we've it sort of depends on what you expect your audience to be most the time anymore. With LDS temple openings, they arrange it in such a way that you're not going to be able to get to a whole lot of folks.

It's not like Salt Lake City used to be where everybody walked through three gates on the temple square. So you had access to almost everybody and you could pass out tracks to LDS Apostles if you if you really wanted to it's Something where they they recognize they're going to be people there and unfortunately if you know about this temple opening.

What will probably take place is you're going to have protesters there maybe some of the King James only fundamentalist Baptist protesters that have destroyed our outreach in Salt Lake City and Have tried to do so in Mesa as well might show up and then you're really going to have problems because these people are hate mongers they they yell and scream and You know, they think that preaching is yelling it shouldn't be Mormon it should be moron.

Seriously, I've heard them do that. So I You know, they they think that getting people mad at them is a sign of godliness and and it's it's a real mess. So if they show up it may not matter what you distribute as far as that goes, but If you're trying to reach people who are not LDS, but who are being Shall we say? Drawn toward it or are in danger of being deceived that it's a Christian faith or something like that then obviously tracks that provide a a sound fair comparison between the two sides or best we had a track called Is Mormonism Christian we had a track what the Mormon Church teaches about Jesus Christ.

These would provide sort of a warning to the Christians. If you're primarily trying to reach the LDS people well, then there's a whole bunch of stuff I think we still have first vision tracks available someplace.

Yeah, we do have some of the first vision tracks available I think is a is. Especially for the serious minded Mormon really provides a challenge to their faith. You might want to go for tracks written on a specific theological issue that you want to focus on.

For example, we have a track called one God or many. I'm not sure if we again know it's gone. Like I said, we right now we basically don't have any LDS tracks I can address you to other than maybe the first vision tract or what else we're in we're trying to get them all redone Redone and reprint them.

So yeah, but this Sacramento opening is in a couple weeks. So that's uh, there's there's no possible way that that printing press is gonna be doing anything between now. That's true. Yeah, there's uh, there's one that I use in.

That's distributed by evangelism explosion called. I bear you my testimony is that Jim Walker's I believe so he's a former Mormon and he kind of lays out the The differences on a on big issues, you know, I think that's James Walker's one.

I honestly haven't read it. I would whatever you distribute make sure that you've read it thoroughly and. Sometimes people are passing out tracks. They've never even actually read and that's always not a not a good idea.

But when we when we go out and witness we very much emphasize having a particular subject that you want to address and A means by which you were going to get there in in witnessing to anyone Mormons or otherwise if you don't have a goal if you don't have a destination then you're just gonna wander around.

It's just like when you get in the car. If you have a destination you just go drive around the block and you know. Maybe over here over there meander all over the place. And if you don't have a destination you're trying to get to in a witnessing situation with a Mormon you will meander through polygamy and false prophecies and little Egypt ology and You know a little polytheism and then back through polygamy again and and.

By the time you get done talking with somebody you've really accomplished absolutely positively nothing at all and feel very frustrated. So you you need to have a goal you're going to maybe tied to the track.

Spend some time thinking about the tract and how you could use it as a jumping-off point to get to where you want to go. There's a number of things along those lines that you can do to make sure that you've got it got a direction to go.

But if you scouted the area, then you need to need to think am I really even going to have an opportunity to? Talk to anybody because if there's no foot traffic, and if they've got all on-site parking you're you ain't getting on the property.

I can assure you of that you're gonna be staying outside and. If people are just driving by you and you're standing there with tracks. What good is that going to do now if they don't have on-site parking or that's not open yet or something like that and people?

Are having to park elsewhere and walk well, then you got a shot, but quite honestly. You've you've got to take a look at it and find out. You know the benefit the cost-benefit ratio shall we say? Because you know otherwise you sort of have to stand stand stand there with a sign or something and and Mormons especially just don't respond overly well to that.

You know with Jehovah's Witnesses. That's maybe one of the only ways you can do it because they ain't gonna talk to you anyhow. So you got to sort of look at the audience you're trying to deal with at that point.

I think my my goals would be to Just just be a warning to non-mormons and and hopefully use that as a springboard to doing a Evangelism, and I'm I wouldn't be you know opposed to talking to Mormons as well, right?

Yeah, well unfortunately a lot of folks who come up to you and ask you why you're so hateful. Why you're so nasty? Why would you be out here? You know picking on these people and so you're gonna need to think through we we do have a tract online.

Called why do you do this? I think it's in the LDS section and it is you might want at least maybe print it out or read through it because providing a a compelling biblical Foundation for why you would be trying to warn people about Mormonism Is really necessary because sadly many of the people who will ask you whether they're LDS or any more evangelicals.

Have no concept of such things like false religions and The necessity of doing apologetics and the glorification of God and the proclamation was truth and so on so forth. So you've got to be ready. You can't be in those situations if you want to be frustrated.

Then depend upon written sources that you have to sort of get out and look stuff up. You've got to have this stuff on your tongue if you're if you slow down if you stop talking. Somebody else will start talking and you're not gonna be in control of the conversation.

So you need to have thought these things through beforehand if someone someone says this, how am I going to respond? What's the best way to respond? How can I maintain control the conversation and do so in such ways to communicate truth to them?

So that's that's direction to go there. Okay. All right. Well, thanks for time and the heads up Alrighty. Well, God bless. Have a good day. Thank you eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

The Chronology of the Resurrection Appearances and Matthew 16

Let's go ahead and talk with John. Hi, John. Hi, James. How are you doing? All right.

Good. Um, I called maybe a month and a half or two months ago. I was talking about an air and see. You recall that call. I seemed recall Something about it. Yes. Okay. Yeah. I'm just going to follow up on that.

We were kind of cut short because I called at the end of the show and you Had skedaddled so I thought I'd just call and then Follow up on that a little if you remember I talked about a couple of biblical problems.

My goal was You had had Dennis McKinsey on your show and I listened to those and I was kind of disappointed with the way he Presented himself as being a person who believes the Bible is Aaron. So I thought I'd call you up and give you a couple examples that I thought were better than what he had done and I talked about Two problems.

One was a Mary Magdalene problem that related to when did Mary Magdalene first meet Jesus? Matthew seems to indicate she met him on the way just after going to the tomb. She met him and and whereas the gospel John indicates She went left the tomb met the disciples and then went back and saw him at that time.

That was one that I discussed and I was just you you apparently were choosing the Bible. But I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on it.

Actually, my recollection of our conversation is a little bit different. I seem to recall having pointed out that you were Making a number of assumptions regarding the text and that you would you had disagreed.

But it had to do with the construction of your chronology precluding any possibility of Harmonization and that there was no basis for the construction of the chronology that you would that you would come up with.

So I do recall that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was you kind of speculated. I didn't think you were affirmed that you were sure my chronology was wrong. It is covered by Gleason Archer. I have his book and he does cover it and he has an explanation that I mean I could tell you what his explanation is.

He he says that Mary Magdalene got confused. She says because of all the events and stuff like that. So he doesn't regard the chronology as being mistaken. And there's another another explanation that I've heard.

Also, basically confused about what?

She was she he believes police and archers explanation. Mary Magdalene did in fact meet Jesus and then sort of forgot and then kind of went back and saw him again and Kind of because of all the events going on and saying that that's his explanation.

I think that's kind of I just don't buy that but I.

Don't have the book to be able to. Even begin to understand what you're suggesting. I mean.

When you say you're telling me that you don't think my chronology is right I'm saying there are Christians that do offer explanations for this text and they don't. Well without Gleason Archer in front of me.

I there is clearly. The only thing that would make sense in regards to Mary is there is a point in time which she does not recognize the Lord but the idea of forgetting Ria meaning Lord that I I would have a hard time believing.

That's what he said. That's why I'm oh.

You know what I recently moved in my book is in a box but. You know, you can check that out or out, you know, I can check that out and I don't remember the exact word the other the other issue that I discussed was Matthew 16 where Jesus says some standing here will not taste death for this.

No, and you you offered as an explanation that He was talking about the transfiguration, which is the very next verse. Yeah. I was I was I have to admit I was very nervous on the phone. So I wasn't thinking clearly but there's I gave two weeks.

I gave one reason why I didn't think that was a good explanation and that was that I thought he was talking about the kingdom. He's talking about what I do say man. Necessarily because you know, you read the verses proceeding and you said maybe he's talking about transfigures.

But the main reason that I would give for why I don't believe your explanation is because he says. Some of you standing here will phrase like that. You're talking about events. It doesn't. You don't say that if you're talking about events that will occur in one week.

And that's what it says in the next passage. It says in that you I believe it says six days later is transfigured and Luke when you say something here will not taste that. You're talking about events that look like years in the future not now and again.

I'm after Pete the same thing. I mentioned to you last time and as I recall I was trying to ask you. You know really what your your purposes are in trying to you know. Exactly. What is the Word of God says that that is so bothersome to you that you're trying to find ways around what it says but in Matthew chapter 16 when this whole discussion is Beginning says that the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of his father and his angels and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

Truly I say to you there's some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom and there are no chapter divisions in in the original writings and The very next words there were no verse divisions chapter divisions, etc Etc is six days later.

Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. Now some people who hold a particular eschatology would actually interpret this somewhat differently in the sense that they view the coming of Christ as including believers deaths.

But not taking that particular perspective because I think it you know, there's some issues of that. I'm not going to argue eschatology than anybody but still the Authors original intention has to be what overrides not.

Well, I wouldn't talk to you that way today. Well, but what did you what the Jewish people? How did Jewish people talk in that particular day? What did they believe about? Judgment, what did they believe about who the Son of Man was?

What did they believe about kingship? These are all issues that go into this not well, if I called your office I don't I wouldn't talk like this to you actually there's a whole bunch of things in the New Testament that we wouldn't talk like that because.

Well, it's an ancient it's an ancient situation. So the the fact the matter is You have to assume a certain meaning of What you think anyways what the Son of Man coming in his kingdom means? And what do you know?

What do you what do you why do you assume a certain meaning for that? It doesn't start there.

Okay, I'm not. He's not talking about events that will occur within a week.

Now if you're if you. Unless they had a particular understanding of what that indicate and what that. Okay, okay.

Is there any evidence that they would understand that to mean events that could occur in a week? It doesn't stop. I mean if that's if that's what it is. Then I have to say man when I read the Bible I don't know what it's talking about because that to me looks, you know, well, it seems like what it would mean.

It really seems to me that. You have. In fact as I recall when you call before didn't you say you're like a former believer or something? Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, and it seems. What do you not believe that?

Well, I you certainly may have professed the faith. But as the scriptures say they went out from us, so it might be demonstrated. They're not truly of us. So You you may well have professed the faith and and but you don't think I really was a true Christian.

No, certainly not.

You know, I just listened to your debate with John Dominic Crossman, which by the way, I'm actually a big fan of yours I think.

Let's not let's not let's not play that card because you cannot be a fan of someone when you believe that what they're saying and doing is Misleading people and that's not what I believe though. Well.

How can you say otherwise? I think you are a true believer in the Bible. And I like that you go on the radio and you take calls from people like me. You're not afraid of that because you really believe it.

And I really did believe it, too. I Was ready to put my faith up against the best that would that would challenge it and and I think that's what you are. And I respect that you you know, take the Bible seriously.

Well, yeah, okay.

But there's a whole lot more here than than what you're saying. What do you mean? Well, there's there's clearly something more here that has not come out in our conversation because When I attempt to address any particular issue When it when it comes to when it comes to people who say they were once believers my Universal experience has been that when we really start getting into the issues and I say now, okay.

No, wait a minute you don't see for example in the transfiguration of Christ his his Exaltedness and his kingship and well, no, I just don't you know I just don't think that that's what it would be and I and I and I know well, why?

Why. Okay, there's one let's put that one aside and now we look at this one over here. Well, I just don't think it would be this and we could go to another one over here. And well, I don't think it would be that and I just said I go.