Jan. 18, 2016 Show with David Ould on “The State & Future of the Anglican & Episcopal Church” (& Assessment of “Primates 2016”)

The Program’s Opening and the Meaning of “Iron Sharpens Iron”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you a happy Monday on this 18th day of January 2016 and it's actually in Sydney, Australia right now, Tuesday, January 19th, 2016 and the reason why I mention Sydney, Australia is that we have a guest today for the very first time, I believe, from Sydney, Australia, well at least calling from Sydney, Australia.

We may have had some guests who originated from there but we actually have today calling in from Sydney, Australia for the first time ever on Iron Sharpens Iron, David Old, who is the rector of an Anglican church in Sydney, Australia as I mentioned and the name of the church is the Glencarry Anglican Church in Sydney and I may have butchered that name but we'll find out in a second and today we are going to be discussing the state and future of the Anglican and Episcopal Church and also an assessment of primates 2016 and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time on Iron Sharpens Iron, David Old.

Hi, thank you. Good morning, Chris, how are you? I'm doing great, especially since you're coming in loud and clear so far all the way from Sydney, Australia. By the way, am I pronouncing your last name correctly, Old?

Right, Old and it's spelt with a U, O-U-L-D. And as far as the name of the church, is it Glencarry Anglican Church? You murdered that, Glenquarry Anglican Church. Okay, Glenquarry Anglican Church, okay.

I think I'm thinking of the very famous movie with Alec Baldwin, Glengarry Glen Ross. That's the one you're thinking of, yes. Well, before we even go into the topic at hand, which is largely as a result of some meetings in England, London, England, that took place recently called Primates 2016 and for our listeners who are not Anglican or Episcopalian, Primates 2016 was not an exhibit of gorillas and monkeys at the Bronx Zoo or anything like that.

Some would say. I'm sorry? I said some would say. Well, the word primates means something entirely different in the Anglican Church and we'll find out exactly what that is. First of all, tell us something about Glenquarry Anglican Church in Sydney, Australia.

Anglican Ministry in Sydney and the Cultural Setting

...to reach out to people. But of course, on the cross and in his resurrection, which was when I was brought up on the night side of a city in England. And my previous placements in parishes both lay and ordained in very, very nice places.

But I'm really loving it out here. It's very different to people. I think people doing ministry in areas like this find that the people are very real. There's no façade. We cut to the chase very, very quickly.

And so actually that means that in one sense, gospel ministry is easier because people will talk about things. In another sense, it's harder because there's no established understanding of church going or of cultural Christianity here.

It is dead. Except for the Roman Catholics across the road. They churn them out every Sunday morning. But it's still the province of church going. It's culturally dead here. So we're starting from ground zero.

And as I was discussing with you before the program began, a lot of people who are outside of Anglicanism or Episcopalianism, all they know about the Anglican and Episcopal Church is that many of their congregations are either on one extreme, totally liberal, apostate.

They may have a homosexual rector or minister or a rector who applauds that behavior or marries same-sex couples or may even like Bishop Spong, who debated our mutual friend, Dr. James R. White, Bishop Spong, who not only married two men and two women if they requested that, he also denied the pillars of the Christian faith such as the deity of Christ and the bodily resurrection of Christ and many other of the pinnacle truths.

Now, that's the common view that many evangelicals or fundamentalists will have of Anglicans and Episcopalians. And then on the other side of the spectrum, you have many in the Church of Rome who will just view the Anglican Church as either a church started by a lustful rebel named King Henry VIII and there is no legitimate ground to have this denomination even exist because it was based purely on his desires to have a divorce when the Church of Rome would not grant him one, and many others who are more ecumenical just view the Anglican Church as a heartbeat away from coming home to Mother Rome.

So perhaps you could give us, our listeners, a description of the Anglican Church that they may be totally unaware of and some of the rich history of Reformed theology that comes out of its heritage.

And the Pope goes, there is no way, it put out. And at the time, politically, there was a big debate about the power of the Pope anyway. And Henry is basically at the point where he goes, I have had enough.

And so he essentially says, the Pope has no power. I am the, I'm not just a king, I am the emperor of England and the Pope has no power. And he doesn't just divorce Catholics. He essentially divorces the Church in England from the Church in Rome.

But at that point, there is little, if no theological reformation. Henry dies a convinced Roman Catholic in theology. When he does reform, in the Bible, that is the English term, and the next in line, he pushes out the people.

And as well, if you go to Bloody Mary, in reaction to that, you have some sort of, he does lay it, because he writes, we do it a different way. And so he actually opens up the door, ironically, you've got your liberals, and then, the country has come to say, thank you, and America follows up.

Yeah, that was excellent. And I just want to announce our email address, if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, it's chrisarnzen, at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N, at gmail .com.

Please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. And I do know that we have a number of Sydney, Australian residents that listen fairly regularly to Iron, Sharpens Iron.

I don't know how often they listen live, but I know that they listen to recorded programs and respond to me via email very often, and communicate with me, and I'm hoping that some of them are listening live today.

But we do have listeners all over the globe, so please let us know where you're emailing from, if you have a question. Chrisarnzen, at gmail .com. Going back to the 39 articles, which you really glossed over very quickly, that's a very profound, reformed confessional statement.

It's clearly Calvinistic, and it's also clearly in opposition to the idolatry and heresies of Rome. Are the 39 articles, even if most Anglicans and Episcopalians don't follow them, is it still the official confession of the Anglican Church?

Which province you're in, we're divided up into almost 40 provinces.

And interestingly enough, a reformed Baptist could actually adhere to the 39 articles, because...

And so he should!

Well, when it comes to baptism, it only says that children should not be forbidden baptism. It doesn't say anything about infants.

Yes, absolutely, and it's true today, at least by many, many Anglicans around the world.

And Thomas Cranmer was the individual who drafted the 39 articles, is he not?

I tried to propose it, but I didn't have a lot of...

And a very fascinating story, which I'm amazed that I've never seen a movie about Cranmer, but he originally, when Rome held power again in the Church of England, he, out of fear for his life, recanted his Protestant beliefs.

But then later, out of just obviously guilt, being wracked by guilt that he had betrayed the true faith of the Scriptures and of Christ, he recanted his recantation, and asked that the hand that signed the recantation initially would be burned first, before he was burned alive.

Yes, a correct story, who shall never be put out. The Book of Martyrs.

Yes, and for anybody listening who wants to get an mp3 of an interview I did a number of years ago on the old Iron, Sharp, and Zion, I spent a whole hour with Dr. Ashley Null, who...

Oh, Ashley!

Yeah, and he just stayed on the one subject of Cranmer and his doctrine of repentance, and as you know, Dr. Null is one of the foremost Cranmer scholars alive today.

He is, actually he's a good friend. Cranmer really understood the Church of the Other Chief very well, and worth the read.

Yes, and it will be great when it gets republished, where it's at a much more affordable price than Oxford Press.

Absolutely, absolutely.

We're going to be going to a break right now, and we do have a couple of listeners waiting for you to answer their questions. Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama is one, and we'll get to yours question next, Ted, so thanks for your patience.

But we're going to be right back after these messages, so don't go away. We'll be right back with David Old and his discussion on the state and future of the Anglican and Episcopal Church, and also his assessment of Primates 2016.

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The 39 Articles, Cranmer, and the English Reformation

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron, our guest today for the two hours is Reverend David Old, who is rector of the Glen Quarry Anglican Church in Sydney, Australia.

He happens to be calling us live right now from Sydney, where it is Tuesday morning, January 19th. But here in the states on the East Coast, it is just about 4 .30 p .m. Eastern time. And we are discussing the state and future of the Anglican Church and Episcopal Church, and we're also going to have him give his assessment of Primates 2016, which was an event held in London that has great importance to the state and future of the Anglican and Episcopal Church.

And before I go to our questioner in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, you said that you believe that Henry VIII went to his death a convinced Roman Catholic, even though he was the architect of the British Reformation.

According to Dr. Knoll, Cramner at least believed on his deathbed that Henry may have at least embraced justification by faith alone, by squeezing his hand, by squeezing Cramner's hand when he asked him the question about that.

Do you think that that's folklore, or did that really happen in your.

Opinion? Oh, look, well, actually, the monarchy there was a reformation put in place. All right,.

We do have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who writes,. Though Mr. Old is Australian, I know from inside sources he is well-versed in TEC, the Episcopal Church in America, which has recently elected its first black presiding bishop, Michael Curry.

I'm wondering if Mr. Old could give his assessment of the previous presiding bishop, Catherine Jeffords, Scori, or Shori, and the brief tenure of her successor, Bishop Curry.

Sure, so I'm rich. So, I'm going to... Yes, the medium, yeah. And you know, a few people should have a man who's left his wife say, you know, you shall not pass North America, which I'm not there with such, they're doing their best.

And we do have a listener in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, Harrison, who wants to know, it seems that the vast majority of conservatives within the Anglican Communion are from the Oxford movement, who are very Romish in their beliefs.

How much fellowship can you, as a historically Protestant Anglican, who truly believes in the doctrines of grace, have with such papists within the Anglican Church, even though they may be fighting against the same liberals that you oppose?

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, I heard you mention earlier,.

The very liberal female bishop whose beliefs you despised. But are there female in the clergy, in the Anglican and Episcopal Church who are otherwise theologically conservative? And how do you fellowship with them, even though the Bible prohibits women in leadership in the church, especially according to the Apostle Paul?

Thanks, Arnie. Great question. Yeah, you can't just shun someone. But we get on, we recognize that when men ask themselves, is the thing they're getting wrong?

Yeah, because of the hermeneutics, the hermeneutics.

Yes, for sure. A little bit of grace and charity. People who know me well.

We do have a listener from Long Island, New York. CJ from Lindenhurst, New York, wants to know, you mentioned something about the divide between high church and low church in the Anglican Communion. Can you be a little bit more descriptive on the difference?

Sure. Hello, CJ. A high church man, I want you to see me for a hard time.

Now, I'm assuming you are a low churchman. I remember years ago, it may have been as long ago as the late 1980s, early 1990s. But I was at the 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, for the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology.

And there was a low Anglican Calvinist minister from Australia. I believe it may have been St. Matthew's Church, but I can't remember for certain. But this brother was... Possibly. Okay, and this brother was actually speaking against even the wearing of clerical garments and collars.

How prevalent is that in the low church? Well, I'll tell you what,.

Where I am...

But I feel that's a distinction, again, in wearing... And so, on occasion, when I do wear a coat, when I'm representing... Well, the most important question on that issue of all is,.

Does James White wear a bow tie when he's speaking in your church?

Well, he and I have a limited number of bow ties.

But...

Actually, I think he took it off, because he actually realized he was vastly overdressed. And I've said to him many, many times, many times...

We have to go to another station break. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, please email it to chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please include your first name, at least, the city and state where you live, and the country where you live, if you live outside of the USA.

I'm still hoping to hear from some of our Sydney Australian listeners, but perhaps they're waiting to hear this later on a recording. But if you're listening live, please shoot us an email. We'd love to hear from you.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with David Old and the state and future of the Anglican and Episcopal Church, and also an assessment on Primates 2016.

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And if you just tuned us in, for the last hour we have had on the air with us, David Old, who is the rector of the Glen Quarry Anglican Church in Sydney, Australia. We have been talking about the state and future of the Anglican Church and the Episcopal Church.

And we're going to be also now addressing the Primates 2016 meetings in London that had a lot of bearing on the subject that we're talking about. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. And before I go into Primates 2016, David, why do you think that there is such a saturation of sound, orthodox, low-church, Calvinistic Anglicanism in Sydney,.

Australia? That would be a great place to establish a prison colony. That would be the best on the First Fleet, as it's known. Evangelicals, well, is there going to be a chapter? There really was. No, they're all criminals.

Evangelicals went. Colony got established. Often the governor wanted teaching morality in an immoral place. And, of course, the Evangelicals went, no, no, we're not criminals. We're gospel men. We want to preach the art of regeneration.

But we're only one to take on its own. We're fairly autonomous in our diocese. It's pretty well preserved that way that it is. We have rotations with high church worship. And a more theological seminary or college is not to be.

Confused with an attachment to the Catholic martyr Thomas More, correct?

Primates 2016 and the Anglican Communion’s Future

All right. Well, we had, as was one of the reasons that we were conducting this interview,.

A recently in London, a meeting called Primates 2016. What was the reason for that gathering? And tell us what happened, to the best of your ability, as a summary of what occurred there.

Sure. So a little bit, we kind of belong together, but no one's really quite worked out how. We have what we call an inactive and had been talking about things that will be involved of Canada. It's more people who are alive in open homosexual relationships.

At the last general, now, I would say, why didn't this get met? And in 2007, they met in Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. And they spoke of what needs to be a liberal environment. And hundreds of them said, we're not going.

It's not just Gene Robinson, but the people who consecrated it. If they're going to go, we won't be there. And instead, I mean, I mean, at the time, it's not an alternative, but look, you know, let's not be nice about it.

It's just a declaration. I started another grouping with, now we've now got a new archbishop, and he, when he became archbishop of Canterbury two or three years ago, he made a point of going and personally visiting every primate around the world, taking his time to rebuild relationships.

Once he's finally visited them all, he said, look, let's call another meeting. We are not, I think, got invited as well. And they all got together in Canterbury last week to talk, change the doctrine of marriage.

And because you did it in a way, really, that, that, that stuck you to the rest of the communion, what we want you to do on a time-out set, they're now on notice effect. We've kind of almost got this, this time-out set moment where it's time to, time to really think it through, think about what you want, who you want to be with.

And then the primates more than likely will, that the Episcopal church will not move back. They will not retreat. The key question that you've got, what will the archbishop answer? So in your assessment, uh, did you, uh, walk away from that.

More, uh, dismayed and pessimistic or more invigorated and optimistic about the state.

And future of the Anglican church? Well, a lot of the, the Gascon pilot, the result there was, let me in front of it, Episcopal have now come much more squarely clear of key players who previously stood outside the Gascon movement.

Now giving every indication that they will join, uh, on a more, uh, more amenable to it. Also primates in the, the, um, sanctions that they will finally apply. And, uh, where would you say, uh, if you know this, uh, statistically.

The greatest concentration of Bible believing, uh, biblical inerrancy advocates and, you know, even low church Calvinists, where would, where would that be in the world? The greatest concentration of Anglicans who are basically in the, uh, you know, kindred spirits with you, like-minded,.

Uh, brothers of like precious faith. It was absolutely fun. And they were saying the same page. And yes, we had our differences and, uh, uh, Jack Allaker was, you know, with his high church in one corner and I'm there, but we actually all put together.

We all praise the Lord Jesus Christ. And that's the Anglican, my American church in North America, the Nigerians and the Rwandans and others. That's right. Uh, Africa. And with these, uh, would be, uh,.

Predominantly in Africa, not the Oxford movement, Tractarians, but the, uh,.

Of a classically, this is a classical, uh, Tractarian. Uh, in a seminar room, open up your Bible, talk about Jesus. And I tell you what, you will forgive a lot of them. Well, we're going to be going to our final break right now.

And if you have a question, uh, for.

David Old, uh, now is the time to write it. Cause we've got less than a half hour left. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. C H R I S A R N Z E N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, we'll be right back with David Old of the Glen Quarry Anglican church in Sydney, Australia, discussing the state and future of Anglicanism.

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Anglican Identity, the Via Media, and Why Stay in a Broken Denomination

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnes and if you've just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes we have talking with David Old of the Glen Quarry Anglican Church in Sydney Australia and he has been discussing the state and future of Anglicanism and also his assessments of primates 2016 a major gathering of Anglicans worldwide in London and this just recently took place.

If you have any questions of your own we're running out of time so please quickly email them to Chris Arnes and at gmail .com. Chris Arnes and at gmail .com. Now what. What is your opinion David of a number of the denominations that have formed.

I don't know how many of them exist in Australia or the UK or other places but I know that in the United States there are some groups that identify themselves as Anglican that are very conservative and some of which are very Calvinistic and low church but they have no part officially.

They're not officially connected to the greater Anglican communion with the Archbishop of Canterbury etc. What is your assessment of.

Groups like that who identify themselves as Anglican. Yeah well a number of them with that often but if it's you've got to be okay that would entail as you might put it there's this particular movement clone in the mountain mountains.

I think I might explain. Over the last two to two or three years that's been a it's been a difficult transition back into the ACNA. There's been a couple of hiccups along the way with some some. I've managed to transition back in and so gathering them all up again it's almost like gathering the exiles back in.

We.

Have a listener from Tulsa Oklahoma Richard Hargrave who is the senior warden of the Anglican Church of the Good Shepherd and he writes. Thank you for your valuable time and explanation of such a very complicated subject matter on the Iron Sharpens Iron broadcast.

Why does the traditional and classical Anglican faith have to be discussed in terms of Calvinism or Roman Catholicism. The Anglican faith in theological terms is distinctly different from Calvinism or Roman Catholicism and much more closer to true biblical theology.

And then this is a very lengthy letter so perhaps I could email it to you later but I'll just give you one more part of it that you could respond to. Richard Hooker gives a magnificent explanation of the correct position of the Anglican Church in relation to the Roman Catholic Church and the Calvinists.

Its correct position is exactly between both churches. The Anglican Church occupies the middle ground between both churches and is not aligned with the Calvinists nor with the Roman Catholic Church. Richard Hooker made this very clear in his work.

Now obviously he's talking about the via media here. Um now uh if you could respond to uh senior warden Richard Hargrave's comments and questions. Well well thank you. Well thank you.

Richard and more power to you. We're not whole uh and all the hard work done there at a good place and they just don't have to do things. I mean in fact the things that many influences on was letters for both of them certain articles I think as a Calvinist which is what I am.

I read the third man article. He's my. We're kind of like the Catholic. The notion of being reformed Catholic was originally um cut up by a man called John Jewell who was a bishop under Queen Elizabeth uh the first and um he wrote uh what is famously called an apology on Jewell's argument that we were reformed Catholics is that we were uh that is to say uh it is uh and um and so um.

Those words like it have have stood the ground on the gospel and I'm sure. And of course.

Uh since you and I are Calvinists we would believe that is the true biblical faith. Now there are many uh listeners to iron sharpens iron I'm sure uh especially those who are among my more separatist fundamentalist.

Uh friends and brothers who would say why are you even bothering if you have apostates in leadership in this denomination why don't you just leave the denomination and join or form something that is more in accord to your own biblical convictions.

Looks like David Old has been disconnected. A very important question. Um hopefully David will call back before the uh the program is over. Uh and uh in fact what I'm gonna do right now. While David may be scrambling around to plug in his cell phone or whatever he is doing.

Uh right now hopefully he will call us back shortly. But in fact he's calling back now and welcome back David Old. Thank you for calling us back. I'm not sure what happened but here we are as I was saying before the disconnect.

I have many uh friends and brothers who are more on the separatist line of things uh fundamentalists. If you will uh both from Calvinist backgrounds and other uh backgrounds some of them even anti-Calvinist.

But they would say why are you even bothering being attached to a denomination where there are known heretics and apostates and sexual deviants in leadership where even money is given to support these people and their views.

Why on earth don't you just leave there and form a new body that that adheres to your own biblical convictions. Or uh join another group that that would share that uh or those convictions. Or even just be an independent.

A congregation uh that adheres to the your biblical convictions. Yeah absolutely. I'm not going anywhere. Um we're staying where we are handing over angles. I'm staying where I am and let them do what they want.

Now the beauty of course is um and I'm a Christian man first because I'm sure many of your listeners are whatever denomination they are. By quietly getting a grip again on on the on the you don't have the attitude which is very clear.

And she has walked away. She's walked away from it a long time ago. I've had sadly some people here in um here in um in Australia now they don't but um it actually doesn't matter. Should they go in and meet last week.

But it may not have gone away next week. If however we get to walk away at that point. Uh once it's enshrined in the history. Once it's enshrined in the history. But we're actually not at that point. We're really not at that point.

I don't know I don't think it was a kind of.

A Reality TV Appearance, Evangelism, and Closing Exhortation

And uh before we go I've got to have you uh uh describe the reality tv show you were a part of in Australia. And um and I'm wondering if that's ever going to be viewable here in the states.

Gosh well I'm not sure if I'd march and some other stuff and it's a fascinating experience. Good experience. I'd certainly do it again. I might do a DVD it's available. I'm sure you can go to amazon and get it.