Steve Ray

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James White.

Yes, indeed.

Steve Ray’s “World Premiere” and the Early Church Debate

We're excited today on the dividing line because we are we are excited about a world premiere a world not just a United States premiere not just a Michigan premiere not just a Troy Michigan premiere, but a world premiere of a DVD that is going to rock our socks.

We can tell the world premiere of of guys who've been dead for. Sorry, but.

Mm-hmm.

One of the first things I saw in the apologetic section of my RSS Heat this morning was Steve Ray's announcement of the world premiere of apostolic fathers in a Catholic Church in Troy, Michigan. And.

It's just tickled me all day long. I. We've never we've never done that have we. World premiere of the debate with John Shelby's Wong. The world premiere of debate with John Dominic Ross and.

Well anything like that webcast around the world, but that's true.

That's true.

See it doesn't. When somebody says world from your world doesn't that mean that there it's opening in multiple.

I don't know. I don't know.

But I heard Denzel was gonna be there so if Denzel is gonna be that's pretty big Denzel or Dansel I.

Don't know but I heard he was gonna be there. Well, you know the funny thing is the reason I think it struck me so funny. Is due the fact that Tiquid James Swan has been listening to Catholic answers live.

I don't know why. You know sometimes that worries me when people and for me. They've been listening to Catholic answers live. But he's been listening to Catholic answers live and he keeps sending me these these little and and he knows how to do this.

He keeps him nice and short so it's easy to fit him into the dividing line. You're not here. Here's 45 minutes you can listen to and Recently Steve Ray was on Catholic answers live discussing this very thing.

In fact I think that it it's interesting to listen to how he is described by the host of the program. Who I think and I asked Jim Swan this and as far as he could tell he thinks this is Steve Woods daughter who's hosting it.

I'm not certain, but anyways listen to how she describes the upcoming segment.

I'm very excited about our second hour. Our special guest is Steve Ray. And we are going to be talking about the early church and especially the question was the early church Catholic. I know that many of you have Maybe wondered that before or you've been asked that or discussed that with one of your Protestant friends neighbors brothers and sisters.

So this is going to be a great topic. We're gonna get a lot of good information across to you. Let you know about some good resources that can help you Investigate the history of the early church a little bit more and we're going to be taking your questions.

We have Steve Ray who's an expert on this topic to answer your questions. And I know that your family members or your relatives your neighbors have asked you questions About the Catholic faith and maybe particularly about the early church and what the early church believed and do those beliefs.

Look closely like the beliefs that the Catholic Church holds today.

So Steve Ray is an expert on the early church so we can we can expect expert.

Responses. Why are you looking so puzzled? I'm just kind of wondering if they. Under. If she's understanding the word Catholic the early church being Catholic in the same Steve Ray understand. World premiere.

World premiere. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. No, okay. Go back to doing what you were doing there. I'm gonna. I need a control. I need to. I need to have a control in here of your microphone.

I need to have a cutoff where I can hit. And it shuts off. Well some you frequently have a funny look on your face in there. Okay, so that's just the way it is. Okay, anyway, so we have an expert and I Had to admit it see is it this one here?

I think it's. I hope it's this one here. Yeah, I think this is here. Steve Ray describes his view of the early church and his as a Baptist we well we hear a lot in this. In fact one of the things mentioned on his blog is that he's giving away an audio CD if you buy his DVD called from Baptist to Catholic the unintended journey and.

So it's interesting to listen to his description of what he was like as a Baptist. Was Steve Ray a knowledgeable Baptist. Was he a trained Baptist. Was he a Baptist who knew his faith his background things like that?

Well, let's let's let him sort of describe that for us.

Steve Ray’s Conversion Story and View of the Fathers

I'm very excited about our second hour our special guest. Okay, we heard that and I know you've been a very busy guy recently. You are the producer and director of a DVD series called the footprints of God the story of salvation from Abraham to Augustine and I understand.

You've just released the next edition of the DVD series. So tell us about that. Yeah.

So what we did is we put together a DVD a documentary on the life of the early Christians in the first Second century and I told their story with a great passion I have to say because these are the guys that made me Catholic and when I went back as a Protestant and began to Argue with the Catholic Church the first place I went to argue.

As I said if I can prove that the first Christians were not Catholic then I don't have to think about being Catholic. I could be free of this Idea that so many of my friends were converting especially Alcresta that if I could argue with him from the first centuries.

Well, then I could avoid being Catholic and maybe save him from his lunacy.

Now let me just stop right there because that That does not even suggest itself to 99 of Baptists. And in fact, you could go on say he knew nothing about what these people believed. He had these wacky ideas about them and but it would never a Baptist would argue 99 of Baptists would argue with Alcresta when he converted the same way.

I would have if Alcresta had talked to me I knew him before his conversion I would have first approached the person from the Bible not from the early church. That seemed really really odd, but listen to what he how he viewed the early church writers.

Well when I went back and began to read the writings of the first early Christians from the first and second century. Especially I had my it just rattled my cage is the way I like to say it. You see I was I was raised in a Baptist family that taught me that the early church was basically Protestant and it's thinking it's theology and it's life.

Now let me stop right there. How many Baptists in the audience put. Put your hands up. How many Baptists in the audience? You sat around the kitchen table and you were taught that the early church fathers were Protestants.

Yeah, I don't see any hands up either.

I.

Let's let's be honest large large if he's gonna make himself out to be a Baptist who had never read anything right? You know, okay fine. There are a lot of Baptists like that. Let's be honest there's lots of Baptists who are just Baptist because that's they are and For the vast majority of those kind of Baptist church history goes back 50 years they couldn't put Irenaeus or Ignatius or Tertullian or Cyprian or Athanasius or Augustine within a thousand years of when they lived.

I mean Martin Luther was a civil rights guy. I mean they honestly the vast majority of Baptists who have never taken a church history class and are very happy just for their traditions don't have a clue about the early church and Generally wouldn't care about the early church.

You're not gonna be sitting around telling people well, actually, they're just a bunch of Protestants. See, you know, and That I've never heard anything like that in my life.

And it's the way it worshipped and it only got corrupted with Catholic stuff later on in the centuries in the Middle Ages. They are in the middle the end of the first century and that's when all.

Is it the Middle Ages or the end of the first century? Those are not the same things.

Catholic garbage got in there and corrupted it all up and it screwed everything up. But the early church was pristine clean simple Bible only Protestant. Wow.

Okay. Well, Steve Ray says that's what he was taught. Well, that's pretty that's that's that's amazing. Because I've never heard anybody say that so I'm not sure. I would love to know who taught him and What church history classes he took and maybe you could address some book.

Direct me some books that that make that presentation because I'd like to see him. I've never seen that stuff myself. I've never heard that. I mean, I've heard some wacky stuff presented by Baptists and and other non Catholics about the early church but Nothing like that.

Don't remember hearing anything like that. I wonder where that came from. Well, anyway, what we do learn is that Steve Ray had not actually read anything in the early church. And so we wonder what sources he then was reading.

Let's let him finish describing his viewpoints.

Well when I went back and began to read these guys, I realized that I I had been taught wrong. So when we did this documentary, it's the seventh one in our series on the footprints of God With Ignatius press.

And when I did this story I'm going back to tell the life and the death the teachings and the liturgy and the whole Spectrum of the first centuries with the very guys that I had grown to love. I felt like they were my friends before my wife and I even went over there to begin filming in Israel and Turkey and France And Italy before we even arrived at all the places where they were buried and where they were born.

I already felt like I knew them that they were my friends that I had spent time together with them in Discussion because I had read their writings. I had read about them. So I tell their story with great passion.

Because these are the guys that made me Catholic and opened my eyes to the beauty of the Catholic Church.

These are the guys that made me Catholic. Okay, we're talking about the first two centuries. Then we're gonna be talking about people who well For example never used any of Steve Ray's arguments about the assumption because there was never a word about it.

So they never used his arguments the arguments that he presented that I've been reviewing In regards not a one of them for example ever used the Bathsheba and Solomon argument. Not none of them addressed any of the Marian dogmas that he would he would hold today about the bodily assumption or the Immaculate conception and in fact if you know, I I haven't seen this DVD.

So I'm not sure who he covers but he'd be able to find people in that time period who would actually teach against The immaculate conception. I wonder if he addresses those issues and maybe puts a Newman's, you know spin on it acorn and tree and don't have to worry about those particular things.

He also would not find anyone in this time period and and again If he's only talking about the first two centuries if anyone goes the end of 200 then he's not gonna be talking about Cyprian people. Like that though later in this broadcast.

He does mention Cyprian and we'll talk about that. But but He's not gonna he's not gonna be finding these folks talking about so many of the things that he is a Catholic Apologist talks about all the time there.

They're not gonna be saying that the Bishop of Rome is the soul and fallible leader of the church. He's gonna make some comments about that, but we'll we'll dig into that. He he's not gonna find the word Transubstantiation in their vocabulary.

I mean there's all this stuff and it makes you you know, sort of go. Hmm. How is it that people who you can't demonstrate believed the key? Distinctive dogmas that make Roman Catholicism Roman Catholicism today back then.

Why are they how can they be the ones that make you? Catholic Roman Catholic specifically, which of course is an oxymoron. But we all know what we're talking about. I wonder I wonder how that works. Hmm.

Well, anyway Here is a Let's we've heard that one now. I'm gonna close that one there and we've heard the that one and yeah, that was a cool one, too No. All right. Here's um, let's get this one out of the way because it angers me the most.

The Trinity Versus Marian Dogmas and Rome’s Appeal to Development

Everybody knows What one of my absolute pet peeves is and that's when I hear people.

Blaspheming.

God's truth blaspheming the Doctrine of the Trinity.

By.

Paralleling this divine truth, which is based in and founded upon so much scripture from Old and New Testaments on such a wide variety of clear statements regarding the the eternality of Christ and his deity and the Personality of the Holy Spirit and and all of these things that are just so plainly taught in Scripture that that you're forced by the whole testimony of Scripture to believe in the doctrine of training so.

What do Roman Catholics do from Carl Keating on down? They all blaspheme the Doctrine of the Trinity. They blaspheme the truth by paralleling this with their man-made doctrines and saying well the Doctrine the Trinity was a development over time and So is the bodily assumption of Mary and the Marian dogmas and blah blah blah blah blah.

Things that are found nowhere in Scripture have no foundation. We're clearly not the teaching of the Apostolic Church and Yet they want to try to parallel the two and that's unfortunately.

Exactly what happens here? Well Steve, let's talk a little bit about doctrine and I know this is a big problem for some people who look at the early church and Let's just take let's take church teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary for instance.

In the early church the early church fathers might have talked about Mary. The Bible talks about her too. But it's this mammoth entity that we call the Roman Catholic Church today that has hundreds of years later after the early church defined doctrines such as the Immaculate Consumption.

And I know a lot of our Protestant brothers and sisters have a problem with this saying this was not the early church. This was not the Bible. The Catholic Church has invented all these things. What do we say to that?

Well, what I like to do is go back to two or three examples that I had to deal with as a Baptist. Because I used the word Trinity. But yet I never found the word Trinity in the Bible. And some people say, you know It's obvious the Trinity's in the Bible.

And I said, is it really well the Jehovah's Witnesses read that New Testament? And they don't come up with the Trinity. There are the one one Jesus only Pentecostals which are thousands of them now huge and growing and they go to the same New Testament.

And they don't see the Trinity there. And the Mormons don't see the Trinity there. And there are many who the Aryans in the first Centuries went to the New Testament and they argued that Jesus was not God.

Let me just stop right there. I hope you hear that. I Hope you hear the voice of Romanism here. This is the voice of Romanism the acidic voice of Romanism that tries to eat away Any confidence that anyone could possibly have in the inspired and revealed Word of God.

There it is. Well, look at all the heretics out there. That must mean the Bible's not clear on the subject. Really? Listen, we just the Mormons don't see it. Yeah, the Mormons don't see it. There's only one true God that is the most basic foundational revelation of the entirety of Scripture.

And they also don't believe that the when the Pope says it either. Big whoopie ding dong. What do you accomplish by getting rid of the perspicuity of Scripture other than enslaving people to your your Roman Authority?

Amazing to hear that kind of Argumentation and that is the voice of Rome. Many other Roman Catholic apologists are a little more subtle. But there you hear it coming from. Steve Ray isn't good at subtle.

So there you hear it coming out just. Undercut the Bible undercut the clarity of Scripture undercut. It's it's the purpose perspicuity of its testimony and.

There you have Rome. So the word Trinity is not there. But yet we as Christians not only Catholics but Baptists and Lutherans and Presbyterians and the assemblies of God We all believe in the Trinity.

Why if the words not there because the doctrine developed it started out very simple. We read in the Bible and and we were taught by the Apostles even before the New Testament was completed. That the Father was God that the Son was God and the Holy Spirit is God.

Now We have a problem. The Bible says in the Old Testament that God is one. There's only one God and yet now we see three, but it's not three God. It's three persons within the one God. And so the church had to struggle with these things over the first Centuries and they had to develop the doctrine and in about the year 180 the word trios was first used the Trinity the word three and so as the.

Doctrine developed. Then we began to use the word Trinity and well and I stopped there just to go. And why does this doctrine? Develop. What is the only foundation for true Christian doctrinal development?

It is dealing with God's Revelation and that of course is the major difference between clear perspicuous teachings on the deity of Christ and the person of the Holy Spirit and.

The.

Teaching of such things as the immaculate Conception and the bodily assumption of Mary. Remember a couple weeks ago or last week I think it was I played the clip where the guy was calling in and talking about how the the Perpetual virginity of Mary Had Gnostic overtones where Tim Staples the caller and and how Jesus sort of just beamed out of Mary's womb and stuff like that.

Folks think about that. Think about that kind of wild-eyed speculation that no one can seriously look at you in the face and say yes, that's what the Apostles were teaching the Thessalonians and. Compare that with the prologue of John and you'll see the massive Grand Canyon sized chasm that exists between the evidence for the doctrines of Trinity that people then struggle with because it's right there in Scripture and this stuff that's made up hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years later primarily based upon Gnostic sources and Then pawned off as if it is somehow Christian.

Even Protestants hold to that teaching today.

Which was developed by the fathers of the Catholic Church. Another one we could use is the canon of Scripture. Let's stop right there.

Developed by the fathers of what church. Certainly not the Roman Catholic Church. Certainly not the church of Steve Ray. Certainly the church of infallible Popes and Cardinals and a magisterium in Rome.

And when you point that out, well, but see that's all development to see. When you try to say wait a minute, where is this church in antiquity? The development hypothesis allows you to abandon the field of historical battle.

You don't have to go back in history. I got just what developed it just developed over time.

You know.

It just develops over time and that somehow is meant to provide you with the with foundation now. We now we go to the canon.

The New Testament wasn't even written in the early parts of that first century. Not until the last half of the second century where the books even written and then it took until almost is what?

Last half the second century. What how late is this guy dating the New Testament? That has to have been a miss Misspeak on his part. It has to have been there. Nobody anymore puts them that late. He just must have misspoken.

370 380 90 before the books were all collected finally into one collection that we call the New Testament.

Not quite especially since you have manuscripts being produced around time the Council of Nicaea. That have the same New Testament we have today. You have Athanasius 39th Festal letter, which is about 40 years after The Council of Nicaea and so you're pushing it push it too far down the road here.

For what reason? Well again just to try to make people subject to Rome's authority.

Sometimes don't we what's that? We forget about that. Sometimes don't we know where we got that from?

We think that the first believers are all Bible alone, you know, they carry their black leather.

Yeah, you know I would recommend to anybody. I can't remember how many times I remember the first time I ran into this about.

1987.

Or so I ran into this Roman Catholic this was back in the old BBS days member bulletin board systems way back when the precursor to the internet and I ran into this Roman Catholic that just made the statement that the new test The the church didn't even have a Bible.

And I'm like what? Yeah, they all they had was oral tradition. I'm like, um, do you remember something called the the Old Testament. Wow.

Yeah.

Big deal. No, I didn't have the New Testament. I said well the New Testament is shorter than the Old Testament. Have you ever looked at a Greek New Testament where the citations of the Old Testament are provided to you so that you can actually see them and and see how much the writings of the New Testament draw from quote from and are based upon the Old Testament scriptures and.

They just sort of look at you blank like well. The Bible developed over time. No the Revelation ended when the last Apostle put the pen down. The question of our Recognition of what is inspired is a completely different issue.

The Bible wasn't developing. The Bible was exactly as it was when it was inspired and given.

Don't confuse. The two issues stand now that doctrine develops. There was no manual. Jesus didn't give us a theology handbook. He gave us 12 men and a tradition and then over time We have to take the puzzle pieces put them together and understand and define the doctrine.

And then we could do the same with Mary.

With salvation with now that remember what the original question was was about Mary. There's where Mary pops back in but only after what? Only after you attack the perspicuity of Scripture and its ability to communicate even the most basic of God's truths and.

That's supposed to be a defense of Mary. And look Rome has to do this. There's no question when you're trying to smuggle stuff that the Apostles never taught into their mouths you have to attack Scripture because Scripture will always contradict you it allows expose you and.

So you've got to attack Scripture and that's what he just did. That is not a sufficient basis. Why don't you go back to these very men you call your friends and show us where they taught these things?

Why. Because it has been recognized by anyone who knows anything about this subject? They did not teach the things that modern Roman Catholicism Teaches. The only people in the second century who were talking about Mary in the way the doctrine of perpetual virginity of Mary does today were the Gnostic heretics.

They were the only ones doing it because that's where the doctrine came from.

Purgatory with the church and all of it. They all have their progression like a flower. That's in a bud form and then slowly over the centuries the bud opens up to reveal the beautiful flower.

Well, there you go. John Henry Cardinal Newman couldn't have said it any better himself. It's better an acorn the tree the beautiful flower. It opens up over centuries. That's a wonderful way of saying that I didn't teach any of these things.

I can't give you any historical basis, but let's just talk about pretty flowers and how they develop over time and let's not worry about that the the parallel that I drew between the Trinity and Mary has absolutely not the slightest shred of Meaningful substance to it.

Just buy my DVD and be happy. Just just be happy and be Roman. So, okay then we did discover something else about Steve Ray's understanding of his own beliefs when he was.

Younger in this little clip now Steve as you know My own family converted to Catholicism in large part because my dad as a Presbyterian minister started reading the early church fathers and as he tells everyone today he started reading the early church fathers and looking at the Catholic Church and kind of connecting dots and saying hmm.

It looks a lot like the early church did and so the reason that work that I'm talking to you today is is really? Because of reading me the stories of the early church fathers and again.

I just have to go really, you know I read those same things and I go look at all the distinctive things that Rome has developed over time missing. I guess they just buy this. Well, it was there implicitly type thing and and I I find all these differences of viewpoints and I find that this particular writer Clearly didn't have access to this part of the New Testament or or maybe just didn't agree with it and this this is a good writer over here, but this guy over here and Sadly, I see some of the well all every single one of the best writers in the early church Fell into the same trap that we all do we are all subject as I've given a number of talks on this over the years.

Using Augustine as an example, you know, here's one of the greatest theological thinkers of all time and yet his mature Theology is self-contradictory. Why? Because of the Conflicts that he went through in his own life and ministry and so when he is fighting the Donatist controversy, then he leans this direction and Let's face it some of the exegesis some of the interpretation offered especially since a lot of these guys couldn't handle the original languages themselves.

Not overly good. Imbalanced shall we say because of what they're fighting but then later in his life. It's the plagiarism controversy. And so there's an imbalance the other direction and the problem is those two controversies ended up creating his doctrine of the church and his doctrine of grace and You can't put the two of them together he contradicts himself, but it's because of the conflicts.

He was in you look at Irenaeus and man some of the stuff that he says about Gnosticism. Not only do you then find that some of his representations weren't overly accurate. Sometimes they were sometimes they weren't.

I mean he had different Kinds of information available to him and sometimes he had, you know first-hand information from Gnostic teachers. Sometimes it was second or third and and further research has sort of gone in not really sure where Irenaeus came up with that.

But even with that You find that some of his arguments as we'll see here in a little while in response to Gnosticism. Well, no one would really use them today. They really wouldn't go there. And I wonder that's why I keep wondering what what version of the early church fathers these folks reading.

Are they reading the explicated. Cleaned up this makes it look like modern Rome version someplace. Why why aren't they running across all these controversy knows all these places where you look at the at the interpretation of a text you go.

That's. That's that's really not overly good and you just you just wonder about things like that.

It does does make me scratch my head. My parents did. But let's go back to the early church. And I know people have a lot of misconceptions. A lot of our Protestant brothers and sisters about the early church and the Catholic Church and how the two are connected.

But some people even think that Jesus never intended to start a church and a lot of our Protestant brothers and sisters have a problem with the idea of this organized church, so.

We do. Which which group. Okay, I thought her father Steve would and I think I think I heard Steve would give the first public talk after his conversion in January of 1991 in El Cajon, California, I was in the audience that day and.

So if he's Presbyterian, then he would it. I can at least hold him to the Westminster Confession at that point and the Westminster Confession has a very high doctrine of the church and so I.

Wonder what Steve Ray's view of the church was. Was Jesus just trying to reform Judaism. Or did he truly intend to start and establish a church here on earth?

You know what happened is that the church? That's a good question and the early church was always one it was a visible Organized unity and the way I like to say is it was a visible organization that had an address.

You knew where it was you knew where the headquarters were you knew what what this organization was? But when the Reformation came they broke away from this visible unity this organization called the Catholic Church.

And they had to get rid of the idea of it being visible that it was an invisible thing now. It was just well because we can't agree on doctrine and we can't agree on practice and even morals. We must the unity we have must be some kind of a unseen invisible Spiritual unity.

So the church must be an invisible kind of a unity together. That really can't be seen. But Jesus didn't intend that to be the case when he started his church. He said twice and I know there's a lot of scholars that have tried to Find a way to cut these words out of the Bible by saying they were inserted later.

Or they really didn't mean this but Jesus said I will build my church. He intended to build an Ecclesia a new community a church. And he even said to the Apostles that if a brother sins go to the brother if he doesn't listen take it to two or three but if he doesn't listen to those two or three then take it to the church and If he doesn't listen to the church the final court of appeal the final judge if he doesn't listen to the church.

Even to the church then consider him as an outcast and a sinner and a tax collector.

Jesus.

Intended to build a church he intended the church to have an address where you could know where it was and That you could take people to it if there was a sin someone sinned against you. And when I was in my conversion process Stephanie I realized that if I went to the first Baptist Church on Main Street And the Christian brother from the first Methodist Church across the street sinned against me.

What where is the church that I could take that brother to? My church has no authority over him. His church has no authority over me because we're totally separate entities. So where is that church that Jesus was talking about.

The church that you could bring your problem to and find somebody who could? Adjudicate or make a judgment about it, and that's what Jesus expected to have available.

Now again if if Steve Ray was a At least a knowledgeable Baptist then he would recognize that first of all if he was a part of a Just sort of plain old Baptist Church notice the difference Baptist BAB TIST is different than BAP TST.

So Baptist that's big problem of Baptist is that you you get your nose out join at one Baptist Church and if you're down in Georgia and You're going to the the third Baptist Church. You can always go to the fourth Baptist.

And if you don't like it the fourth you can go the seventh Baptist and they're all within a mile of each other anyway so in those situations. Yeah. There is very little effort upon certain realms of Baptist to for example.

Have a biblical view of the officers of the church. They they sort of have a monarchy which is a little bit like Rome they've got they've got a king and that's the pastor and then the deacons who think they're elders and They all fight it out most the time and that's not a biblical form.

Sorry. It's not Bible talks about elders in the plural and the Apostles established elders in the plural in the church. And that's why I believe those things and you need to have biblical form and plurality of elders certainly helps a lot of things and Then if they have a if you have a Baptist view that goes back in history to things like the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith or even back to the Congregationalists, you know people like that in England.

Then there will be a very high view of the church and there will be for example concerned about holiness. There will be discipline. And you go well, what good is discipline? If you can just go to the church next door, that's why at our church.

We have a guarded table that is we. We do honor the discipline of like-minded churches. And so you can't just go hopping from place to place and partake of the Lord's Supper. Now, of course, I would immediately stop and go did anyone else notice the Amazing hypocrisy of this statement.

This is a man representing the modern Roman Catholic Church. When did you last see the modern Roman Catholic Church clean in house and do in discipline? Huh, how many Roman Catholic leaders are there how many Roman Catholic scholars are there?

How many Roman Catholic? politicians are there. Who flaunt the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on almost every subject and what does Rome do? But sit on her hands. Excuse me for not being overly impressed.

When you start talking about hey, we got one church to go to when your church doesn't do anything. This is the modern Roman Catholic Church. Can I say priest scandal? Can I say? Hundreds of millions of dollars paid out in hush money and damages.