An Argument for "Gay Christianity"

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00:05

Even if God what Jesus did on the cross wasn't sufficient, right? I mean, could

00:10

God save you with what he did at the cross without your baptism? Let me ask you that Could he well

00:18

Speculate on what God could have done. Okay, did he did he say no, okay So ultimately you're not saved without your work

00:30

Yeah, I would agree with that but I would say it differently I you can't be saved without faithful obedience to the

00:35

Gospel that's sanctification That that comes after that sanctification.

00:40

Yeah, when you're saying you're so defined So you're saying you're justified so ultimately norm you're you're trusting in your salvation for what you did, correct?

00:49

Ultimately, like God did what he did at the cross Did you say that backwards or I'm trusting what

00:54

I did for my salvation? I think is So so I'm saying in a different way. So what if Christ's death on the cross?

01:02

Wasn't was not sufficient. He requires your never said that and I wouldn't say that and it's you know, extremely

01:08

Offensive to attribute that to me. Okay, so you're saying that that you did Christ's death was sufficient

01:16

Right, so it's all that we need only sufficient but the only thing that could be done for okay

01:21

So we don't need baptism then because it's the only thing Is it is it the only thing or is it not do you need to be baptized or not?

01:29

Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient It is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good

01:48

Well, I'm not drew

01:56

Vanita, oh Wait, that's how he usually opens but says he's not Andrew Rappaport.

02:02

Oh, that's true Vanita with a baby in his hands And he's much better looking than I am yeah

02:10

He can't hear us though. So so yeah, I'm I'm back this week and I'm just we gotta set the record straight right off the gate

02:22

That I'm just gonna mute you until you're ready to talk But We are we have the topic tonight was supposed to be

02:36

Argument for gay Christianity and someone was going to convince me And I was just gonna bow to it because it's so it means so much scripture clearly teaches homosexuality is fine

02:48

It's not a problem. Yes, I'm going to cower under the weight of culture

02:54

No, I'm not but we can't do it tonight because well, he wasn't here and I called him and he's like, oh

03:05

Right, so we're gonna do it on the 12th week so before people start, you know,

03:12

I was already accused of clickbait once because we someone was saying why you know challenging

03:18

Jim Osmond with why didn't you you know, why don't you have a Continuationist at a cessationist conference to debate and And we actually explained that and we had that Setting we had

03:32

Matt slick and it was supposed to be Justin Peters, but Justin couldn't be there and Jim was We explained to that, but I guess

03:39

I never went back and changed the title I'll have to make sure it changed the title of this one So people don't accuse me of clickbait because Justin wasn't on there.

03:48

I'm sorry Just we explained it on the show like in the first couple of minutes of the show But hey, that's the way the internet is

03:57

So we're not gonna we're gonna do an open Q &A because we didn't have much of a plan so so Conversations about is

04:09

John Harris says Andrews arguing for gay Christianity. No, I was actually gonna argue against it

04:16

But I was gonna be I supposedly was gonna be convinced of it is you know, did you did you change my

04:23

Waiting for you to see it. There you go. I did Purposely didn't put up the the

04:31

Banner until you could see that I was gonna ask why you're get dead man walking, but There you go dead man dead guys poet society

04:42

I Walking You just can't trust

04:49

Andrew to be around technology because you never know what That's right, oh

04:57

Yes This comment up though by Melissa. She's so cute speaking of my son when

05:03

I just had my son here Thanks, Melissa. And how do you know she's not speaking of one of us?

05:09

Here's how I know Because Melissa is friends with me on Facebook and she sees all the pictures that I post of my kids and how adorable they are

05:19

So I know exactly are you are you trying to say that we're not adorable? I mean,

05:25

I would say no, I know I'm adorable Yes, right

05:30

You obviously don't have mirrors in your house. That's what which is why I don't shave

05:36

Yeah, so we we're gonna give Anthony two more weeks to prep for this now

05:42

I forget how many I don't remember I should look see if I could find it in the notes how many pages he's he told me he wrote on this subject of gay

05:52

Christianity Interesting thing when you called me and told me about this episode

05:59

You told me that it was he was presenting an argument that no one had ever heard before Not that no one never heard just it so I'll just read what he wrote actually here.

06:11

I'll read the his initial email Hi, Andrew Anthony here Here. Oh, wait.

06:18

No, that's that was the that wasn't the first one Maybe he called me and then we talked maybe that's what it was

06:29

But he said Here's the link With the movie information

06:35

I have and the movie that he's referring to by the way is The 1946 film that you might have heard

06:44

James White referred to He's really into into that but he said he says this

06:52

Here's here's the link to the movie information But I have my own material beyond that even what spurred me on Wanting to do this was a

07:04

James White debate along with Michael Brown Is homosexuality consistent with the

07:10

New Testament? obedience You can find it on YouTube. I feel like even though I didn't agree with them

07:19

James White and dr. Brown owned the debate because their opponents

07:25

Really had no reply as well as Brandon Robert Robertson to to bed with James White and Jeff Durbin He had an he did an awful job representing

07:40

Christianity, but I will I will scour your website for any information you might have but my arguments have to do with the content of 1st

07:53

Corinthians and 1st Timothy as well as going beyond complementarian norms and building on the works of Justin Lee and Matthew Vines you can look them up in the

08:09

Reformation project Kathy Bullock is the one of the primary researchers for our side of the debate

08:17

You can look her up as well and I think I in my discussion with him because I think he called me this is someone

08:23

I actually you knew personally, so He he had I think he told me he thought

08:29

Matthew Vines Didn't do a good job in his arguments, even though he agrees with the view.

08:35

That's why his view We thought was better in this film that's coming out that he saw He thinks is even better and at one point he said he thought that James White didn't represent

08:44

Christianity Well, and I was like really Okay, but you know, we'll find out well, that'll be weeks yeah, that is very interesting because well the first the debate that he refers to with dr.

08:57

White and dr. Brown, I Think that was a debate in 2017 maybe 2018 and The the unique thing about that debate if you listen to dr.

09:07

White talk about it You could tell how on the same page dr. Brown and dr.

09:12

White were to where they were finishing each other's sentences In presenting the arguments and it wasn't planned

09:19

Yeah, but but heard that you actually watched the debate. So I don't know but in referring to Matthew Vines, I mean

09:27

Matthew Vines His book his position. Dr. White thoroughly refuted him in a multiple hour episode in 2015

09:37

I believe it was when his book came out and I mean one thing to note from what Anthony said and and so We always try to be fair with with folks here in two weeks and we'll get to discuss with them

09:49

But it is note good to note. He can recognize that someone could win the debate Even though you disagree with their position.

09:56

I'll give you for instance Matt Slick did a debate with Sam Waldron on the charismatic the continuation of charismatic gifts and I Remember watching that debate and I came across even though I would agree.

10:12

I disagree with Matt's position I don't know that I completely agree with the way Sam Waldron argues, but I Had to say that Matt Slick won that debate why?

10:23

Matt actually dealt with the topic of the debate Sam did it And so what

10:29

I ended up discovering I talked to Matt about it and I told him I said, you know You won that debate even though I disagree with your your conclusions because he answered the topics now, what am

10:39

I doing? I'm looking at this debate from a not emotional position, but a logical position just looking at here's the topic that's being debated you present your argument and So what ended up happening with that?

10:54

Was that Matt told me which I didn't know that During the debate they or before the debate they had talked about different topics

11:03

Sam Waldron actually prepared for the wrong debate So I would have liked to have seen how that went had they been both debating the same topic, right and so Matt Debated the topic that was at hand.

11:18

They changed it Sam forgot I guess and Came in. So I the reason

11:23

I thought he lost was because he wasn't answering the topic. So And maybe you you mentioned maybe we could talk about debates and how to do them, you know with that opening clip

11:32

What what I was doing with with you know, Pastor Norm there the if you remember that old episode

11:38

We did on apologetics live where he is a church of Christ believes believes you need to be baptized to be saved

11:45

Because debating is something that people do miss a lot Why to do it and how to do it and this is the thing

11:54

I think when people listen to James White debate I Think they come away a lot of times

12:00

I hear this about James White is that they're like, oh he was being mean to the person, right? the purpose of a debate is not

12:10

Not to make friends. You could be friendly. I mean that's like and I've debated and we joke with each other during debates

12:16

There's a relationship we have there that we're working off of but the the purpose of the debate is you have a

12:27

Whatever the topic is you have to you make a claim That's what your opening statements are the opening statements.

12:34

The purpose of them is to lay out your position, right? then you would have

12:40

Sometimes a rebuttal and what you're the rebuttal is is to just it's kind of a monologue

12:45

Saying where you disagree with your opponent's opening statement The major part of debate the big part of debate is the cross -examination, right?

12:55

If that's where they're won or lost. Yeah, because if you have a debate without cross -examination, it's really not a debate, right?

13:01

I've had that where with a Muslim who literally we're supposed to we're supposed to do a five to ten minute opening

13:08

Each of us and then just do back and forth We're each gonna get two minutes to ask a question then have it answered back and forth 45 minutes and This guy suddenly changed it to just straight monologues.

13:23

No interaction It's you know, it's because even though he gets paid a lot of money to travel around the world and speak for Islam He's scared to debate to actually debate

13:34

Christian, right? And then your closing statements are to be the conclusion

13:40

From the debate and so because of this If you have someone that writes the closing statements, but if they come with a pre -written closing statements

13:53

They probably weren't paying attention during the debate right now you can I mean you can have notes you can have a closing statement

14:01

The purpose of closing statement is to wrap up your side of the the argument

14:07

So I'm gonna debates when I may have some written closing statements to conclude from what he is

14:15

Saying whatever the topic is But I really want to address anything that was discussed really in the in the cross -examination

14:22

It's my last chance to have the monologue to end the cross -examination. We played the with norm

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What was I doing there? It's a cross -examination. I'm asking him and he's not liking the way things are being worded, right?

14:36

What am I doing there? I'm just asking questions that were now pitting him

14:43

Basically up into a corner because as you heard him say there he was like, I wouldn't say no

14:48

It's Christ is the only thing now. He's the ultimate. He's the only and then then we go back to the okay, so your baptism can't save you because if it's your baptism is

14:59

Necessary then he isn't the ultimate thing of salvation, right? Yeah, and And and all you were doing in that that moment in your the questions that you were asking you were taking basically the summation of What you had already talked about and now you're asking questions based on what he has already revealed

15:22

Yes What he has already presented and what was it that he presented that you must be baptized for salvation

15:30

It and in the question was even asked I know I think I asked it in the comments and I know

15:36

Justin Asked it in the comments as well So if you die on in a car crash on your way to being baptized, do you go to hell and he said yes

15:47

And so now now what are you doing? All you do is you take that information you bring it in to ask him and say, okay, so So so it's my salvation is reliant upon my work.

15:59

Yes So let me just he gets backed into a corner and now he doesn't like the result And as more people have been coming in as we've been talking

16:07

I'm just gonna announce again the argument for gay Christianity that Anthony was gonna make we're gonna do in two weeks he forgot so We'll do it on the 12th

16:19

Because I won't be here next week. I know I've been doing a bunch of travel. I know

16:25

This one's for family. So I will I'll just say this I'll come at your prayers. I'll be with my father For a week.

16:31

And so if you guys could be praying that we will have opportunities to share the gospel with him I would appreciate that so But yeah

16:39

I mean when you do a debate a good thing to do is to ask questions up front don't you?

16:45

You present things in the form of a question to gather information And that you're gonna lose in your conclusion, right?

16:54

So so you think about think back if you guys remember when we debated? I debated that guy

17:02

Ray Fuentes from the Philippines. Yeah On Calvinism.

17:09

What did I do during the first round of cross -examination? I asked him Questions, do you believe and what did

17:15

I do? I went through all five points of Calvinism not using the labels but the definitions

17:20

Mm -hmm, and in doing so he agreed to each of those Then what

17:26

I do the second round I just asked him could you define total depravity, you know Unconditional election limited atonement irresistible grace perseverance of saints.

17:35

I let him define them So then what was my conclusion? My conclusion was this is why you shouldn't be debating these topics you shouldn't be debating these topics because You hold to them a you are

17:47

Calvinist and be you don't understand what the words mean, right? Now what am I doing there?

17:53

I mean, I'm gathering that information folks. This is really helpful to do when you evangelize. Yeah, I Teach people when

18:00

I do our evangelism trainings gather. Yes questions to gather information early Because you especially the more you do it like if I'm speaking to someone who's a

18:09

Muslim Very early on in the conversation. I'm gonna ask Do you believe that God is greater than our ability to understand him and they always say yes

18:20

Good I just tucked that away Because later when when we talk about Jesus being

18:26

God they're gonna say well, how could God die and That's when

18:31

I go or so you're saying that you can comprehend God Because that you have said earlier the

18:37

God that exists is greater than our ability to comprehend him So when they hit struggle with the Trinity or how

18:43

God could become a man how God could die on a cross When they struggle with that, what do I do

18:48

I go back to what they said earlier Okay, when I'll sometimes ask them if I'm speaking to a

18:55

Muslim Do you believe that you know when if you understand the their view of the

19:00

Old Testament or the Bible? I'll say do you believe did you believe that?

19:06

Moses wrote God's Word and got corrupted and then David wrote God's Word got corrupted then

19:11

Jesus wrote God's Word got corrupted and they'll say yes And I go, okay good. We'll just tuck that away because later

19:17

I'm gonna say well, you know, here's some problems some errors in the in the

19:23

Quran and if it was written by God, I'm gonna argue it got changed it got edited and they're gonna say no No, no, it can't be

19:28

I said, but remember back. You said these other three times God wrote and men corrupted How do you know it wasn't corrupted this time?

19:36

So it's a good thing to do is to gather that information as early as you can in the conversation

19:41

Some people may be saying well, how how early in the conversation? How will I know? Where the conversation is going to go to know what questions to ask?

19:50

Just start asking questions. Yeah Yeah, well to use myself as an example when

19:57

I very first started evangelism When we would go to the parks or go to the

20:04

Marietta Square and I would just talk to people The immediate mistake that I made was

20:11

I assumed about people Mm -hmm and in my assumptions I ended up offending more people

20:18

So so so when you do that, the conversations basically shut off What I had to learn was

20:25

I need to ask questions to get to know someone and then you'll be surprised

20:31

How much information people will give up about themselves when you just ask questions and and the good thing about asking?

20:39

questions Yes, we're gaining information But it's also a way for us to not misrepresent them as well

20:46

It's so instead of assuming something I I can I go by what they told me like you've been saying

20:53

I Take this I store it away and then I bring it up right so that when the guys the

20:59

Conversations going and I'm telling them about Jesus and they maybe ask a question or they make a statement and reveal something

21:05

I what do we do? But what about this that you said? Yeah, and now now the conversation has shifted a little bit because now it's like oh

21:15

I forgot I said that but now and now you've kind of got them But let's work off of that and let's ask more questions

21:24

Yeah, I mean we want to a lot of the evangelism is asking questions because a you don't misrepresent them be gather information

21:32

See you can expose errors. And I mean if you remember that earlier clip with Norm, what did

21:38

I do? I was I asked him that's basically asking the same question three or four different. Yeah, because I was trying to get to is

21:45

What Christ did on the cross the ultimate ultimate meaning the only like that? There's nothing else and once he did once he understood what

21:53

I was asking and he agreed to it and he even he took it And even emphasized it Then I said, okay.

21:59

So what about your baptism and what's his answer? You're a skilled debater? another word Apologize live.

22:08

Sorry Atomic apologetics John is saying was there another debate I missed with pastor with preacher norm.

22:15

No, we we just played an old clip of his Chris is saying okay drew.

22:20

What topic are we doing next week? I said I was gonna be gone. So yeah, that may be Chris Hough also said oh that debate with Ray Ray Fuentes was rough on his end.

22:34

Yeah, it was you know, you know how rough it was I didn't even listen to the gospel. I know

22:39

I'll tell you how rough it is. I Still get people from the Philippines letting me know that he's still talking about me

22:48

He still doesn't let it go that's how rough it is Andrew just lingers in people's minds even a couple years later

22:54

I know when people see me in person. There's the nightmares that they live with for months, but you know

23:00

D said this most people are hung up on tulip. They they have Misrepresented instead of truly understanding the position.

23:08

I encourage folks to read the Canon of Dort and and that's true I mean they do the same thing with cessationism as well.

23:16

And that's what Chris Hough says right here I was just gonna bring that oh, yeah She said he said you see the same thing when it comes to biblical cessationism and I was gonna that brings that's good

23:24

I'm glad he brought that because I want to talk about a Twitter back and forth. I was having with a guy today The issue is can you be a continuationist and Believe in sola scriptura.

23:35

I say no and He's trying to say yes He's saying he says he's saying you know like that we sensationists say that and this is the claim he's making

23:45

It's a straw man that we believe that all Prophecy is scripture.

23:51

That's not I don't know. I don't know any cessationist holds that Cessationists hold to the fact that it's equal in authority

23:59

So what was I doing? I'm trying to separate the scripture aspect of it and say what when you could think about what makes scripture scripture

24:07

Revelation from God what makes prophecy prophecy revelation from God. What are they? revelatory and so my argument is you know, and I refer to prophecy and tongues and Wisdom those three gifts mentioned in 1st

24:23

Corinthians 13 as revelatory gifts, right That's how I don't know anyone else that refers to him that way but and I was glad to see in cessationist film that they put that in because I was

24:34

I remember when we were first Just getting that film was first being promoted, you know on Kickstarter Talking with less and and he had never heard anyone refer to those gifts as revelatory gifts

24:46

I've referred to tongues as a revelatory gift Because you know the the work

24:53

I've been working on supposedly for a long time That book on tongues that I have yet to finish

24:59

But in there I talk about I can't I can't give you a hard time because I have all the research done in my book

25:06

You know Jesus Christ claims of deity though. The research is done. It's the writing I have to do

25:12

Anyone wants to be a great ghost writer and help me out, you know, I would love it right but continue but but to the point you're making

25:23

In there I say that tongues is a revelatory gift because the purpose of tongues was to proclaim the gospel and So it was a gift that was used as a foundational gift

25:36

That the Apostles had that as they would go out to all these places of the language that they didn't speak

25:43

They would speak and this gift would come upon them as a means to proclaim Christ the revelation of Jesus Christ So tongues is a revelatory gift

25:54

Yes now Facebook user that famous Facebook user everyone's if your fate if your name comes up as Facebook user if this is your comment

26:03

Go to apologetics live .com and there's instruction so we can know who you are. It's gotta be hats cuz it's always

26:10

Always but a lot of times it is true doesn't have a lower third for his his name up Well, it's it's very simple.

26:17

If I get rid of the banner just the way that Stream yard works. There is his lower third and you see my lower third

26:25

But when I put the banner up it takes away the lower thirds. So what did I do? Well, I have an app so I have my lower third always showing with my books

26:35

Well, or the book in the podcast or whatever I have there. So Yeah, that's why it's it's the thing with stream yard.

26:43

So sorry about that Facebook user All right, so we got

26:48

Melissa saying I would love it If you guys would do a show on the history of the church and the church fathers, it would be something different I'm glad you mentioned that Melissa.

26:59

I like that idea I am going to be doing a being on someone else's podcast with the

27:06

Dean of my seminary He's now the I think he's the Dean or the president at Shepherds Theological Seminary And so he is one of the best with church history.

27:16

And so maybe I'll get him on to a projects live He was on in the past. His name is dr. Burgraff David Burgraff He was on we did one on Just war that was what he did his dissertation on on just I thought he was on more recently though.

27:33

I I don't Mmm, he was you might be thinking

27:38

Andy Burgraff with yeah That's his son. Yeah, because I remember

27:43

Justin was on it. Oh, yeah So so when we think about debates the the thing of a debate

27:49

You know, look if you get emotional in a debate you lost you lost, okay and it's just that's the the purpose of a debate is not to Win an argument by emotion or you know, it's it's a give a logical reason to argument and that's what you're looking to do

28:08

Now I got a debate coming up. No in November the week before Thanksgiving. I'll be out in,

28:14

Texas Speaking at preaching at a church speaking at a school and we set up a debate now

28:20

They wanted to meet a debate a professing atheist and I said sure and what I wanted for the topic was

28:27

Secular humanism is superior to Christianity Why that now that's not what we'll be debating.

28:34

I'll explain why but why that I always want Especially for someone that professes to be an atheist.

28:39

I want them to have to defend their worldview Okay, what ends up happening is

28:46

You end up seeing people that especially with atheists. They want to always be attacking

28:52

Christianity They want something that's attacking Christianity so that there's not the pressure on them to have to defend their worldview, right?

28:59

Okay, so we have a changed topic or so the school administration contacted me and said hey after talking to this person

29:07

I'm gonna be debating You know, he would like to do too many debates take the topic

29:14

I gave and then a second one saying is Christianity true Okay, so he he wants that he wants what does he want he wants me to be on the defensive

29:25

Right, so he can attack got it. And I told the school I said look it's up to you

29:30

I could do I either one or like we could do both we could do either one individually I mean, I would rather do one or the other because both are heavy topics to get through So I think it'd be good.

29:44

But I you know, I said you you whatever is better for the school Let's do that.

29:50

And so if if he shows up to debate is

29:55

Christianity true He already lost the debate because why do you have to show up to argue against something?

30:02

You claim doesn't exist right a god that doesn't exist. Yeah. Well, he's gonna well,

30:07

I think he could answer that I mean, yeah, I thought you're gonna steal my closing comments because I kind of see where things ago

30:13

I mean, right I said not to have closing comments at the beginning. It's my expected closing comments They're my notes that all that I'll have whether you have an outline

30:23

And then you fill in the gaps, correct, correct. And so And I do find it interesting

30:30

I'm agreeing to his topic We were asked to give information of how we would argue.

30:37

I gave him a bunch a couple of YouTube videos links to the website

30:42

I Haven't heard anything from him So I don't I it's hard for me to do so I have to prepare

30:50

Where I'm on the defensive against an argument. I haven't heard Okay, so how do we do that?

30:55

Well, I'm gonna have to debate but typically I hear I'm gonna have the the position of making the claim of what's that Christianity is true

31:06

It's not a shock to listeners here how I'm gonna do that If you've ever heard me talk about the two religions argument, that's what

31:14

I'm gonna do You know, I'll do some textual criticism. I'm sure because I'm sure that'll come up But what do

31:22

I do well, there's two areas that I study on and people ask drew you know this but people come in and ask because anyone can come in and and to this show anytime we got someone backstage right now and Debate me on anything, you know, maybe that character back.

31:39

There's going to we'll see Yeah, probably come up with some topic and start started to but he eat the guy backstage likes to debate.

31:45

He really does Yeah, I know. I know likes the things he likes to think he's a preacher too. Sometimes.

31:51

Yeah, I Haven't heard. I haven't heard that. I haven't heard that. I mean cuz

31:56

I just avoid that. I mean, no okay, but But here's the thing, how do

32:04

I prepare I mean any look we had the black Hebrew Israelites come in, right? We weren't prepared for that We've had lots of different people come in and and I get asked this.

32:13

How do I prepare for debates? I don't know that are gonna happen. Well, I just study logic and hermeneutics those two areas if you can identify

32:21

Invalid arguments now, this doesn't mean you have to know. Oh, that's a straw man argument. That's poisoning The what you don't have to know the name of it but if you understand what makes an argument illogical and those what makes it valid invalid and If you go back go to my rap report daily podcast

32:40

Search for logic just go to Christian podcast community org search for logic I did

32:45

I Explained logic in a two -minute segment so you can get that and I and the transcript should be in there

32:52

But I explained very quickly how to identify arguments as valid invalid No, what does that mean?

32:58

That means that you can do this very simply. It doesn't it doesn't take a whole lot In fact, what

33:04

I'm gonna do is I'm actually gonna see if I can find that while we're talking, you know, there was along those same lines

33:14

We have a we have a mutual friend who's a pastor out in, Oklahoma who posted a picture of Tom Pennington's book a biblical case for cessationism and Tom and the

33:25

Joker in the back background is holding up that book now Well, I think I think the

33:31

Joker in the back should should send me a copy of that book But you really loved me, but I do that But basically now

33:39

I don't have Tom Pennington's book But from what I've heard is that it's an expansion from his sermon at the strange fire conference

33:47

Which is an amazing sermon. Everyone should go listen to it but what this person but there was a person who was trying to argue with Brandon and basically, he was posting a

34:00

Podcast from dr. Brown and dr. Brown's podcast was how he he demolished

34:07

Tom Pennington's arguments Up from his book. Well, I went and I listened to dr. Brown's podcast that he did

34:14

Did dr. Brown demolished the arguments? No, what did dr. Brown do he took?

34:22

Tom Pennington's Argumentative claims right what would typically be at the front part of the discussion and He took only that not any of the support that Tom Pennington would have put in to validate his claim

34:38

He just took the claim and he argued against the claim Well, did he did he actually deal with what

34:45

Tom Pennington said? No, because he didn't deal with the actual support and arguments

34:51

He only dealt with the claim Yeah, and and you see this very often when you do debates you'll see someone

35:01

They may take a couple things. You'll see you'll see someone that will talk for like 20 minutes and They never once said anything

35:12

What what are they trying to do they're they're Saying things that make them sound eloquent

35:17

So it sounds like because they're appealing to emotion they're trying to get the audience to be like, oh, yeah

35:24

I agree with what he's saying and Then you end up in a case where?

35:30

You go you're agreeing with him and you you think he's right But the reality is is he wasn't actually answering the issues.

35:39

Okay, and so that then is Logically invalid right?

35:45

It's not sound so when we look at that We have to be able to spot those things another thing you'll get within Christianity you get someone to do when

35:56

When you watch me do a debate, I don't come with 50 different verses of Scripture.

36:03

I Usually try to take two or three that we're gonna walk through an exegete Because when someone's like what about this like you go watch my debate with Chris date

36:14

And what we end up seeing is all he's doing is thrown citation after citation after citation never once Reading them and if he is reading him not exegeting him, right?

36:26

He just quotes it doesn't ignores the context and just moves up really quick So you think I'll look at all this biblical evidence he has because he's got this verse this verse this was it

36:35

But what you have to do is take each one of those break it down and take it in its context and read it

36:42

And yeah, I mean and usually that's what those people who just kind of spitball verses

36:48

They're doing that Because it makes them sound good But like you said all of most of those verses are not going to be in context to the discussion.

36:57

Yeah So let me I'm gonna play I'm gonna play the audio says there's two minutes.

37:05

I know that because all of them were two minutes I'm gonna play the this is episode. This is from my

37:11

Andrew rap for its daily rap report And it is a two minute the two minute.

37:17

This is episode 20 So it was early on so logical arguments must be valid and sound so we can answer this in two minutes.

37:24

Here we go This is a ministry of striving for eternity when we talk about logic or critical thinking we talk in terms of validity and soundness a logical argument is valid when the argument form is valid now, this is different from soundness an argument is sound if and only if it is valid and All its premises are true so you can make a logical argument that's valid by saying

38:12

That when it rains the ground is wet the ground is wet therefore it rained now that is valid the premise that the ground is wet when it rains

38:25

The support the ground is wet therefore the conclusion That it must have rained that's logically valid, but guess what it's not sound

38:36

It's not sound because there is a third option the sprinklers

38:41

That's right. The ground could be wet by something else and not just from the rain

38:48

So though the argument form is valid It's not sound and it's not sound

38:56

Because The one of the premises is not true

39:01

The fact that the ground is wet doesn't mean that it can only be from rain

39:07

So whenever you're talking to someone and they're discussing Logical things you want to do critical thinking always look for whether the argument is valid and sound

39:17

This podcast is part of the striving for eternity ministry for more content or to request a speaker or seminar to your church

39:23

Go to strivingforeternity .org Wait, what's what's this coming from Chris holes messing with the huff?

39:30

I have no idea what he's talking about. Yeah, I don't I don't know You know, Melissa was saying that at least you didn't catch him sleeping.

39:38

Did I accidentally put the huff like that when his head was down? I'm reading this book and and I cannot put it down.

39:50

I'm I started it Monday and I'm almost done with it and You guys started talking about cessationism.

39:55

I'm like, they're gonna talk about that Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I really think when you're done with the book, you should send me a copy

40:03

I'm just saying not even out yet Soon so how'd you get a copy g3?

40:09

So one of those people I bought it at g3 along with a bunch of other people They were selling it early at g3 along with Owen strands new book the war on men

40:18

All right, so let me let me answer so I saw some comments in the back Chris on holes

40:24

I'll put his up. He said glad there's someone was asking about my my earring glasses glad There's been some help for the double vision can't imagine how difficult that would be actually these glasses don't help with the double vision

40:37

Yeah are just because because of the double vision my eyes have been so strained and That reading the comments is really hard Even though someone

40:47

I saw someone say but I thought he has a big screen I do have a big screen, but the words have to be made bigger So, yeah,

40:54

I'm not used to wearing glasses we did order the new glasses that should help take care of the

41:00

Double vision, but I got to wait for them to get in. So I'm waiting So Chris what does

41:10

Chris say down here? He says you can read the digital version if you subscribe to g3 plus. Yeah Oh Well, I don't want the digital version.

41:21

I want the Huff's version. I want his copy Let's put it this way drew drew drew nailed it you know if Well, let me back up.

41:35

Yeah, just talking about debates and you're talking about And so I wanted to say something about that and that's gonna lead into saying something about this real quick You know,

41:44

I think of I think of Peter's word sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart always be prepared to give defense for the

41:49

Hope that you have with gentleness So always being prepared always knowing always always always knowing the scriptures knowing what they say and knowing what they mean by what they say

42:00

Is super important and remember when you're debating something that is

42:07

Obviously not biblical the burden of proof even even if someone tries to make you think the burden of proofs on you the burden of proof is on the person trying to Debunk what the

42:16

Bible says and from a mindset standpoint That's how you have to go into that debate knowing that the truth that the

42:24

Lord of the truth is on your side and that nothing is going to come against that so And then so that being said

42:33

The the topic of of cessationism and versus continuationism is

42:39

Heated back up. I I think it's still One of if not, the biggest problems we find in the evangelical church is the misrepresentation

42:49

Yes of how the Holy Spirit does and does not work in and through believers and the church as a whole and Tom Pennington His sermon at that strange fire

43:01

Was one that every believer needs to listen to bookmark get the transcript of save it but this book

43:09

When it says a biblical case for cessationism, that's exactly what it is so So the thing is is that Most people that say they're gonna make a case for cessationism

43:23

Do exactly what people that say they're gonna make a case against you know for for a position against Calvinism Do they just attack the the other position?

43:32

Exactly. Let me make a case for cessationism by attacking Continuationists, that's not a case for Stationism that's against continuation is correct.

43:42

Correct. Yeah. Yeah, that's a thing struggles I for it frustrates me. Let me let me read something that you know, you made me think of you talked about debating.

43:51

I Talk about this when it comes to you know, these these ministries that do discernment, you know discernment ministries

43:59

One of the things you see is people that they're looking for someone to attack They're looking for someone to go after and this is what

44:05

Paul says in Philippians 3 I'm gonna start in verse 17, but we want verse 18 he says brethren join in following my example and observe those who walk according to the pattern as you have in us for many walk of whom

44:23

I often told you and Now tell you even Weeping that they are enemies of the cross.

44:31

Now. No, this is the thing that I think is is lacking in Discernment ministries is the weeping

44:40

They're going, you know, you have the same thing with debates people that are looking for a debate. They're looking to attack someone or attack a position

44:51

They're not concerned about the soul of the person Paul is weeping at someone that he's saying is an enemy of the cross of Christ Yeah weeps for them because a he knows where they're going and B He knows the damage they're doing and I don't

45:04

I when I look at a lot of the discernment ministries They go off attacking people, but they're not they're not weeping for them.

45:10

They're not looking for them to come to repentance I mean, let me let me use an example Justin Peters, he's well known for going and Exposing the heresies within NAR word of faith, you know, the

45:24

Benny Hinn Creflo dollar all these folks, but the difference is he also prays for them that they would get saved

45:30

Yeah, look at his latest video, right? It was a plea to Benny Hinn and Andrew you're hitting on something here

45:36

I think that is super important You know If you're out there and you're you're listening to people and they are they are exposing false teaching

45:45

I would I would I would caution you to do your research on whoever that Ministry is whether it's matter of theology striving for eternity

45:55

Justin Peters, whatever and and ask yourself this question is the only goal to tear down and expose false teaching or is the goal to unify and Edify the body of Christ Yeah Is the goal is is the goal of Paul's works to Timothy is the goal of their instruction love?

46:15

Or just to puff themselves up and go look how much I know which I know drew and I have been accused of that for Years like and that's not it.

46:23

That's not it at all. You know, we get Just just this week like I mean you should go see the comments on On the the

46:32

Twitter posts that I It's called Twix Twix post

46:40

It's X Twitter Twitter X, you know, it's the they got divorced and now they're right, right so but you should go see the you know, the the comments and the mockery that's you know, warning people about Corey Asbury and his satirical

46:55

Rant using the Lord Jesus Christ as the butt of a joke and mocking Ideologies that have that have left people in eternal damnation

47:04

Yeah, and and and you know people will come out and mock and all that stuff but the goal the goal of the instruction is love and if that's

47:12

Not being communicated if they're if they're pointing out false teaching, but they're not they're not

47:19

Actively saying hey we are praying for X Y & Z or you know Our the goal of doing this is to warn you is to go

47:27

Avoid this to mark avoid and warn but but pray for them You know whenever I try to do that whenever I call

47:32

Andy Stanley or something like that like he needs prayer He needs the Lord to Sovereignly providentially step in and stop this downgrade that he's on he is

47:44

Apostatizing before our very eyes as many people have done throughout the years. Well, what is it?

47:49

We always hear when we When we call out someone like that, we always hear well, why can't we just be unified to the yeah

48:00

Yes, and what we have said all the time right Unified around what?

48:07

Mm -hmm, because we can't be unified if we're talking about two different Jesus's two different views of Scripture Here's what unity means though drew unity means will you just agree with me?

48:19

JC Ryle JC Ryle said unification at the expense of truth is unification that's set on fire by the flame of hell and That is is that people will argue doctrine divides it does absolutely right it does it does it divides truth from error and Right from almost right actually unifies those around the truth, correct?

48:42

Right, but but so many that have the truth. They're like, uh, we don't want to Ruffle feathers.

48:48

We want to be liked, you know, get over yourself Because because D puts up a good point here, but now this is it's a good point

48:57

But it also we also need to be careful Because well, why don't you read what she said before you answer it?

49:03

Well, I was getting to getting to that So D says speak the truth in love and with that we would say amen

49:10

Yes, but we would also say this is not my excuse to just hammer away at someone amen

49:18

Amen, I and just tear someone down and and come back and say well

49:23

I I was speaking the truth and that's loving Right. No, all you did was you wanted to win an argument and you wanted to show yourself, right?

49:32

Correct don't actually care about the person like we've been talking about. Yeah Yeah, and and this is the thing we have to be aware of so we're talking debates

49:41

When I you go go watch the debate I did with you know, RA Fuentes, right?

49:48

What's my concern my concern? Oh, right. He's he's he's teaching something.

49:53

That's not right he's he's dividing the body of Christ and He's he's

49:59

I mean he's bragging about how many debates he does It's like he's doing it for the debates and he doesn't even understand the topics that he's debating, right?

50:07

That's the problem and and you know, that's why I was like you shouldn't him in not only that But as we ended up finding out there's some issues with you know

50:15

His his church and how he left it and things like that Well, and he claims to be a pastor by doing online church.

50:22

I mean there are all those sort of things It's like you shouldn't be debating you have basic things. You got to get right, but you shouldn't be debating topics

50:28

You don't understand for sure, right? So the concern was that you know that he would hear the gospel

50:34

That's why I wanted him to hear that because it you know, I mean that's the concern I have for guys like this now

50:40

He's am I saying he's not saved. I don't know Right, but a guy who looks to cause the vision you have to question

50:48

You know It's just even guys in our own camp that when they love to debate and You know, then it's like okay that let's have there's some concern there

51:01

Well, I had to block a guy today I sent you first the screenshot Because you know, he ended up private messaging me

51:08

Oh my god, and he was baiting me into debate and when I called him on it, he was like, oh well

51:14

You're assuming my motives and things like this and and I just I said look you said I dare you to You said you know

51:22

You you're running and hiding and making an excuse and I'm going all of this is baiting me to try to debate

51:28

So you just want to debate? I'm I'm one. I'm not interested at the moment, too

51:33

I started a new job. I don't really care. You want to say you win? Hey you won Congratulations.

51:40

Yeah, Dee Dee is saying that's what we call attention -seeking behavior Yeah, it is and there are people that now look

51:48

There's people and I'm gonna Chris. I'm just gonna mute you. We're getting some feedback when when you're not talking.

51:54

So Just unmute yourself when you want to talk. Oh, he's giving me the the finger up like I'm gonna go fix this.

52:01

All right. Well We'll let him fix that. So What you end up seeing is there's there's two types of debaters, right?

52:11

You have as we're talking here the the person who debates because they want to win They like being like look how smart

52:18

I am. Look how great I look I nailed that guy and then you get a guy like a James White James White has almost 200 formal debates.

52:26

Is he trying to impress people with how many debates he's done? No, he's really been quite clear on why he does the debates he's getting older and he knows time is short for him and he wants to get the information out there because he knows it's gonna last because a part of a debate is so that the

52:45

Argumentation is heard and that's gonna last for a while I mean the reality is you're usually not talking to the person you're debating you're talking to the audience

52:54

We're still getting the background from you Chris. No, that's weird. Okay read yourself and It'll be fine because you're when you're when you talk

53:04

Yeah, here's how you know a good debater Let's just say a good Christian debater.

53:10

You see this with dr. White. You see it with Andrew I mean Our viewers have seen it on this show time and time again you see it with guys like Joe boot when they have done debates

53:23

They always make a point to get to the gospel

53:30

That because because in the debate the arguments is not what's gonna convince the person it's not what's gonna save the soul

53:38

It's the gospel Now the Holy Spirit can use those evidences and those arguments

53:45

But he's not going to use them apart from the proclamation of the gospel, which works on the heart

53:51

So all of those those arguments, they're good But if you just present them apart from the gospel, you've done nothing and and you know

54:02

One of the things with that is because it because like you may not share the gospel Say okay, listen, it wasn't really a formal debate, but we talked a few weeks ago head coverings, right?

54:14

You guys take one position. I take another Do we have to share the gospel if that was a formal debate?

54:20

Would we have to share the gospel? No I mean, we're Christians. We're not concerned that either one is lost over it

54:27

I probably still share the gospel because the audience I don't know if they're Christian, but but The but the point is how we see each other

54:37

Right, but also listen Yeah, and if you go back and listen to that debate,

54:42

I mean not really debate but discussion whatever you want to call it What the gospel was woven into that?

54:51

Yeah because we couldn't get away from it because of The view that we were taken on on head coverings and the view that you were taken on head coverings

54:58

There was something greater right which was ultimately authority to Christ.

55:04

And so that Was woven. Yeah, we all came around verse 3 out of right the gods of you know authority and the order there

55:12

So so yeah, I mean, we're all unified. We agreed. Yeah, but you bring up a good point, man

55:18

It's just like, you know, you have to and that goes back to always being prepared, right? Like I mean know who you're debating know what they believe do some research take some time

55:28

I mean if you can if it's like a schedule debate, you know, take some time learn the person get to know the person You know, is there an opportunity to have a conversation beforehand?

55:37

I mean, it's just it just depends on situation Yeah, I want to say so and you said Chris before I do though I want I want to use drew as an example go back to when we had

55:45

Drew and Jim Osman having their debate slash discussion What is what is it and I still say this is the key part of that debate was when

55:56

Jim's me explaining a point and Drew says, you know, Jim, that's a really good point if you can't do that in a debate

56:04

If you're not hearing the other person Like I had a guy on Twitter today that I started talking about this, you know he's he's trying to argue that you know that I believe all prophecy is is

56:18

Scripture and therefore You know, he's saying well, what about the this prophecy? I'm like you're missing the point.

56:24

I'm saying that all prophecy is revelation and All scripture is revelation and I actually said the moment when

56:32

I'm like, how do you have revelation without revelatory gifts if? the revelatory gifts ceased

56:38

How do you continue having revelation? And if you argue that they haven't ceased

56:45

Then how do you say you have sola scriptura because you're not having only the scriptures

56:51

Because you have this other revelation that's happening Right, and and and so if there's more revelation what makes scripture authoritative is that it's revelation from God If there's prophecies that are happening their revelation from God their their authority comes from the source

57:10

God That's what makes them authoritative not how we receive them, right?

57:16

And so so we have that now To You're gonna say some drew.

57:22

Go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say It's really really hard to debate

57:27

Jim Osmond Because one I mean

57:33

Jim Osmond about him. He and Justin Peters this debate that we keep hearing. They're gonna have a right I want to see

57:40

I realize, you know, I talked to him He says, you know, they may do it on Justin's channel, you know, but really we got to get that debate

57:46

Yeah, I get that happen. Yeah, but but one Jim is really smart

57:52

I mean he knows the Bible inside and out and then secondly is I thought my mind worked really quick His his mind is crazy fast.

58:03

I mean Faster than most people so, you know So it's it's really hard to debate

58:11

Jim, but you come away from it learning a lot more than when you went in well, and then that's what a good debate should do you should be listening to one another and Engaging with what they're actually saying

58:26

If nothing else for the audience's sake because if you're just attacking straw man arguments

58:31

You're not doing anything for the audience. Most most debates are for the audience. Not that the two people they're doing the debate

58:37

Okay So we have to keep that in mind to that and James White has said that plenty of times

58:45

That you know, it's the audience. That's whose minds are gonna be changed and so That's the thing that You know again when you're good if you're gonna do debate because like I said earlier, there's two types of people

58:59

There's the person who just wants to win a debate and there's a person who wants to communicate the information Right, that's that's the thing

59:05

I I grew up in a Jewish home Debate was a common thing. It was a normal thing, but we saw it as a way of sharpening one's thinking and That's that's a real purpose of debate is to sharpen your thinking nowadays.

59:21

We think debates a bad thing Everyone sees emotion in debate. Like if you're debating all you must be emotional you must right?

59:28

No, it doesn't have that You know a good debate doesn't have emotion it has logic and reasoning

59:37

You know And so here so this Chris said

59:44

Folks that always want to argue because they want to prove how right they are are never worth the time

59:54

And and for the most part he's right Uh for the most part clicked on the wrong thing there

01:00:01

But there are trying like RA Fuentes. Let's take him as the example He he was challenged.

01:00:08

He said that there's no Calvinist that would check that would take his challenge to debate him, right? I Said fine,

01:00:15

I'll do it James White looked at his argument said it isn't worth the time right now remember what's

01:00:21

James's point James was looking to debate because he wants to he wants to look at Communicating information for the next generation and beyond if we're not all in jail, but Well, that was something

01:00:37

I was gonna say. It's just like, you know, you you also I mean, that's one of the things about online debates and getting into spats with people on social media, it's like, you know,

01:00:47

I I Very rarely will do that and and will engage with someone. I always tell people hey if you want my number

01:00:54

I'll give you my number. We can have a conversation and talk about it. But what's What's the point of going back and forth behind a keyboard you're not going to accomplish anything

01:01:05

You're not going to edify to the greater body you're not going to be able to communicate the care and love and admiration for One's soul and the desire to see them made right with the

01:01:15

Holy God through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ But just be prepared brothers and sisters when you stop you stand for truth and this is where you have to be resolved

01:01:25

It's to understand that you are going to be attacked the ad hominem attacks are coming.

01:01:30

They're gonna come People are gonna try to push your buttons people are gonna Somebody said yeah, you probably just grew up in some homeschool bubble with no sense of humor it's like dude,

01:01:40

I went to public school from kindergarten all the way through and into college and and And beyond so nope, that's not it

01:01:47

Yeah, but you have to be prepared for that and ultimately you have to ask this question is your goal

01:01:55

The glory of God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the edification of the church or is your goal?

01:02:02

You yourself is your goal to make yourself looks when I already said that but here's a good question ask yourself Do you fear

01:02:08

God or fear man? That's what it's gonna come down to are you a slave to Christ or are you a slave to what you know?

01:02:14

Somebody with 122 followers on Twitter thinks about you. Are you a slave to Christ or are you going to?

01:02:21

Are you going to acquiesce to the scriptures teaching and command and exhortation or are you going to submit to well?

01:02:29

I don't want I don't want people to think that I'm trying to be divisive or trying to upset the Establishment or can't we all just get along kumbaya easy believism easy grace

01:02:38

Christianity, which is not Christianity at all So, but you just got to be prepared you've got to be resolved before you engage in truth -telling go ahead.

01:02:47

Yeah Yeah, and you know This is one of the things if you're gonna get into a formal debate

01:02:54

Right. You got it. You got to think these things through you have to know why you're doing it and You know with with Fuentes I was willing to do it for for a very different reason, right?

01:03:05

He's he's been a thorn in the side of many pastors down in the Philippines He's he's trying to make a name for himself and he's doing great destruction from what

01:03:14

I'm told at you know for the Church of Christ there in Philippines and It's becoming a you know, like a stain on the name of Christ Well for that reason

01:03:25

I was willing to bring attention to it and at the end I said why I did it To you know, he he saw because yeah

01:03:31

One thing you have to understand the Philippines to get a debate with an American it just gives you some clatter it gives you clout and I when

01:03:41

I agreed to it, I had so many brothers tell me like I and don't do this You're gonna give him you you don't understand the way, you know, the

01:03:49

Philippines are and you know, the Filipinos that Gives credibility and I said he won't have credibility when we're done and and people just didn't they weren't trusting

01:03:59

They were like no, you don't understand. I'm like what tell let's see after the debate, right? It was my closing arguments my closing arguments.

01:04:05

I showed why he shouldn't be debating I addressed the the sin issues that that you know were spoken of in you know

01:04:12

About him and that you know, so and then I just said, you know, look when we get done with this debate

01:04:18

We're writing articles and when anyone searches RA Fuentes They're finding five articles from striving fraternity before they find anything.

01:04:25

He's producing So they're gonna be warned about him And I think that's why he's still talking about me because he still can't get his name to rank

01:04:34

In anything but other than what we've done and we haven't been adding anymore, right so there there is a there is a purpose of Debate to expose someone that is a danger.

01:04:46

That's a false teacher. And so Even though they may not have great arguments

01:04:51

Chris It's still there may be good reason to do the debate James James wasn't gonna waste his time on it totally get that You know

01:05:01

But I chose to do that because I you know, I'm you know, I do ministry in the Philippines I do a lot of stuff and I'm looking to go back there in April.

01:05:09

I'll be making more announcements about that shortly but you know, that's there's good reason

01:05:16

I chose to do that and And the reason I chose to do it the way I did now look people have asked on this show you take a guy like You know

01:05:26

Ben Zion the Jewish Orthodox rabbi that we had on the way that I handled him

01:05:32

Very different than I handle almost anyone else right Why there's a difference and we spent time drew talking about this.

01:05:41

There's a difference in the way he was approaching things The the demeanor, you know, he wasn't looking to listen to us

01:05:49

Right, so we dealt with him in kind This so there is a time to do that time in place, but if you're doing it all the time like that Then maybe it's a problem, you know

01:06:01

It was unusual for folks to hear me be so hard with Ben Zion, right?

01:06:07

About that is We gave him a very long time on this platform to make his case.

01:06:17

I mean Very very long times to present his arguments and then whenever you or I would go to speak

01:06:25

He would instantly try to cut us off before we could actually either refute what he was saying or even ask a

01:06:33

Clarifying question to what he was saying so that we could refute what he was saying

01:06:38

And he didn't want to have any of that. He wanted to have his monologue and us to just listen

01:06:43

Well, that's not how how this works Yeah, and he wasn't engaging with the things that we were actually saying correct

01:06:49

Chris Han hold says this platform building is one of the worst plagues on the church. Boom.

01:06:55

I Mean that is you know, unfortunately social media has given an ability Look, there's a bunch of people on social media that would not have any kind of platform if it wasn't for social media

01:07:05

Right because they would go to a church They wouldn't be given a chance to preach They would be kind of told to sit in the sidelines because there's issues that the pastor would see with them and They would just move on to another church because they think very highly of themselves

01:07:21

Yeah, the pastor would say I think you need to be discipled first and they would say

01:07:26

I'm offended I'm gonna I'm gonna go Yeah, exactly exactly

01:07:35

You know, you know I was noticing did Drew I don't know if you noticed Did you notice when

01:07:40

Chris Huff is speaking he's lifting his arms up a lot. Have you noticed that? Yeah, it's almost like he wants to show off those muscles.

01:07:47

He's been building in Is it me or you know? Is he is he trying to he keeps lifting his arms up because I've been seeing the videos or the pictures

01:07:55

He's been posting of all his workouts My theory about that is because He tells me about when he goes to the gym, right and he you know

01:08:08

Showing the gains and my response is always man. That's cute. But do those muscles come in man size?

01:08:16

And so I think he's just trying to show that they're getting to man size. Well, I look here's the thing

01:08:22

I think what it is is he's been hanging out with Dwayne Atkinson too much, you know, and and he's just he's like hey

01:08:29

All the pictures of his workouts I got to post all the pictures of my work as I that's what I think it is

01:08:34

You know, you know, but here's the thing. I think that Chris is just you know, he's working out a lot and You know, look one of the problems when you you're not made in a problem blessing when you work out a lot

01:08:46

You know, it tires you out you get a good sleep But maybe drew in your case, you're not getting and you're not working out

01:08:53

You need to go get yourself in my pillow Because you're not even as well as Chris, you know, and so I Know yours keeps getting stolen by your wife and your son.

01:09:03

So you need to go by yourself. You have by your son a Child sized pillow

01:09:10

But but if you're not getting a good sleep because you're not working out enough I will just say, you know,

01:09:17

I get a good night's sleep even without my my pillow because well 13 mile runs we'll do that to you, but You know,

01:09:24

I Will I enjoy the my my pillow because it does help me sleep that you know, even better that the mattress topper is killer

01:09:32

I I absolutely love that We actually got one for the guest bedroom now because I got the 2 .0

01:09:39

mattress topper so because the 2 .0 has the heat that it to control the heat and so my wife is is like What is really cold and I will like just I'm warm So like I'm I'll be sweating at night and she's like putting on extra layers, you know

01:09:55

So we got that new one and that actually does help so that it does control I don't know how but it does control temperature

01:10:01

So if you want to get some of their products go to my pillow comm use the promo code SFE Stands for striving for eternity so that they know you that we send you that way

01:10:09

They continue to support this show so we can continue to do this and we appreciate their help

01:10:16

So Chris is now Chris in his workouts. He works out so this is

01:10:22

What is this Chris? It's like a group of guys, but y 'all are y 'all are at different parts of the country or something

01:10:29

Yeah, but these guys are like former Navy SEALs. Yeah Yeah, they're doing this workout program.

01:10:37

Yeah, so I have a friend of mine. This is a funny story I Some may know his name.

01:10:44

His name is Chad Williams. He wrote a book called seal of God great book But it's really funny because his his dad who

01:10:51

I know His dad basically met this

01:10:56

Navy SEAL and at the time before Chad became a Christian He was a screw -up.

01:11:02

We'll just leave it at that And so his dad was really kind of worried about him And so he basically was like hey can you take my son out for like a

01:11:10

Training and just beat this idea of going into the military out of them type of thing Like just gonna beat him into shape well that he they got together for like a

01:11:20

Saturday morning and went and did a you know, and a routine exercise routine together and Basically, the guy goes, you know what?

01:11:28

I think he should go become a SEAL And Chad's one of the few that did it the first round the first round through a lot of guys

01:11:34

It takes them several times to get through that program. It's a brutal program Yes, and get rolled back for all sorts of reasons then now what's cool

01:11:41

You want to talk about discipleship opportunity is I've actually started training with a guy locally here Who's he saw me doing it and was asking about it.

01:11:50

So he joined up He's a firefighter locally and he's a believer And so we it's it's great because it's an opportunity for us to sharpen one another

01:11:59

We've talked about everything from Old Testament law and is it for today and he's a flat earther and so that's been fun

01:12:06

And but just a just a good brother, but then cool. It's really cool to see What's happening in that community right now because there have been a couple of guys a couple of?

01:12:15

guys with with a reputation in the SEAL community who have put their faith in Christ and They're young in the faith.

01:12:22

And so their theology is a little But If you know those guys, you know

01:12:29

Let's talk after the show I'll put them in touch because because Chad tries to make it a point if you meet maybe seal to work with them and Yep It's been cool and I've had multiple people reach out to me and be like man

01:12:42

It's cool to see you know guys like DJ Shipley and Cole Fackler and the guys at GPRS to share your stuff because of what?

01:12:48

Else is on your what else is on your social media stuff. Okay, so look what Chris on hold says He says listening to these guys talk about working out as I'm stuffing my face

01:12:58

What you should be here. So at least we could see what you're stuffing your face with but alright, so, you know, but but yeah,

01:13:05

I know the the thing is is that when when we're doing even going to the gym and Exercising, you know, we have a course at striving fraternity at the striving fraternity

01:13:17

Academy on an introduction to discipleship and in that course I remember saying to folks like, you know, one of the people that I discipled he was a deacon in our church and He and I you know,

01:13:32

I have a full gym in my house. And so he would come over he was he walking distance He was you know, three four blocks away.

01:13:40

He would walk over to my house three times a week and we would lift and Typically the

01:13:46

Monday lift was questions. He had from the sermon on Sunday So we were just talking but you're right

01:13:53

I mean in between sets we have a lot of time to just sit talk theology and and it's a lot of discipleship

01:14:00

You know discipleship doesn't have to be okay You come over my house at seven o 'clock and we're gonna sit and you know

01:14:06

Do this Bible study together and then you're gonna leave and there's no real life -on -life discussion

01:14:11

That's not discipleship real discipleship is life on life and you could be doing it with anything

01:14:16

You could I you know there's some people I used to take I used to have season tickets to the

01:14:21

US Open tennis match here in New York and I would go up with some different guys and driving up there that what are we doing?

01:14:28

We're talking scripture Sitting in the stadium. We're watching a game. We're still talking scripture.

01:14:34

We're driving home. You know, it's a time of discipleship I used to use that as a way of getting together with different guys from the church to you know

01:14:42

They'd be like, hey I can get it go watch tennis Okay, you know I'll go with you and I would take different guys up there and we

01:14:48

I just used it as a means of Discipleship, there's a lot of different ways. We could disciple but it's the idea of what it says in Matthew 28 19 and 20 that Jesus I'm saying you that okay you you go and make disciples

01:15:04

Teaching them what all things he taught you so You you got to be having discipleship relationship you have to have two types of relationships in your life

01:15:13

Someone you're discipling and someone discipling you You need both. I call it the discipleship ladder

01:15:20

You got to be having someone above you pulling you up and someone below you that you're pulling up Because if you're if you're just being discipled, oh

01:15:30

You could say you're a sponge But if you're not passing it on to anybody You're not a you're not doing the

01:15:37

Great Commission, but be what value are you You're like the Dead Sea that has no outlet and it's just dead

01:15:45

Right, you know, it's not passing on and so you need to be discipling somebody But if you if you only are just discipling and you have no one teaching you you start to get a big head and think

01:15:55

Oh, you're you're the answer to everything So you need both these relationships and even when you're the pastor of the church

01:16:00

Guess what? You still need someone to disciple you I have men Who disciple me even when

01:16:07

I was pastoring that I I would speak to regularly so they could keep training me

01:16:14

That's the kind of relationships we need every one of us needs that in our life. Yeah. Yeah, Steve Lawson Talks about this and he talks about it like You need to be a river right information comes into you and then it goes out of you

01:16:30

Into someone else. He says if you have no information coming in Meaning someone discipling you or sitting under a preacher you become a desert right and nothing grows in the desert

01:16:42

He said but if information is coming in and it's going nowhere You become a swamp it just sits in it festers and the only thing that grows in swamps is bacteria

01:16:53

So it needs to be coming in and it needs to be going out I need to have someone teaching me and I need to be teaching someone else

01:17:02

Because you learn a lot by teachings a lot of times When you're teaching someone asks you a question, you don't know the answer to you got to go check it out

01:17:09

You got to go study. Well, you get a better go to the person who's discipling you and so You need that.

01:17:15

So it's Chris on holds is saying this he says to my invite for him to come on He says now

01:17:21

I limit my face on on video as much as possible Already on YouTube earlier this week.

01:17:28

No need to terrify the viewers. That was a good Was a great. That was good with Keith Foskey And then he said this he says

01:17:37

I I perpetually the kid in the corner eating paste. Well, okay, I'm gonna say this

01:17:43

I think Chris hon holds needs to get in here, you know I'll tell you what We're gonna give him a couple of minutes to finish stuffing his face

01:17:50

Run in the other room and get in here Chris, or we're just gonna close the show early with his Mask.

01:17:56

No, he doesn't need that. Let me say something to as far as being discipled and I think this is something that you know that thankfully

01:18:05

I've had with with my brother drew here and my buddy Alex Rodriguez who is pastor of There We have to we have to announce that drew just opened the second fresco, you know

01:18:20

People count the number of frescoes Everybody everyone in chat, by the way everyone in chat

01:18:26

If you want Chris hon holds on here you come in put it in chat everyone put it in chat that you

01:18:33

Chris Yeah, you know hon holds. We already got Chris off. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead Chris. No, no, you're good

01:18:39

No I mean so so one of the things that When it comes to discipleship when it comes to people that you're close with when it comes to brothers for men sisters for women

01:18:49

You need to have the kind of relationships where There are no gates

01:18:54

And when I when I say that I mean you're open and honest and when I say that like if drew comes to me

01:19:00

And he's done this Bro, we've been friends over five years now closed friends like I know right?

01:19:10

He's been an Alex. Alex has done the same thing, man Alex has done the same thing to where to where you need to be able to Confront and when when your brother

01:19:20

Confronts you and says hey, I love you enough To confront you. This is a confrontation.

01:19:26

This is hard This is difficult, but you as the one being discipled you've got to be humble enough to not debate them

01:19:34

You've got to be humble enough to stop trying to win the argument You've got to be humble enough to trust those faithful wounds from a friend as Proverbs 27 says

01:19:44

You have got to submit yourself to that and Understand especially if you're close like I know if drew comes to me and says hey brother

01:19:53

I saw this this and this or you said this this and this and it goes against scripture And I'm just concerned about about you and I love you and let's talk through this and what can

01:20:01

I do to help you? He has done that Galatians 6 shouldering burdens Literally coming up underneath like that boys done that Alex has done that like you need to have those people in your life

01:20:13

And when they come to you when they come to you with that stuff, you need to lay down your pride

01:20:19

Let go and submit to the Word of God Understanding that the goal going back to what

01:20:25

I said earlier Paul saying to his young son in the faith Timothy The goal of our instruction is love, you know,

01:20:32

Chris I would do that with you if you'd ever answer the phone when I call No Well, no, you know,

01:20:39

I've got I've got something along those lines and It's good that that Han holds is coming in here.

01:20:45

Also. Yeah Yeah, I don't I don't know if I should wait until you Well, I'll tell you what we'll give

01:20:52

I'll just you know, mr. Hun holds said Yo, y 'all are encourageable.

01:20:58

Thank you. I take that as a compliment. But yeah, I appreciate everyone saying, you know, we got we want Han holds

01:21:05

Yes, Chris H actually go Get him on Chris H put the food down and join the conversation

01:21:13

Chris H As a as Han holds, you know, John is saying Han holds you're the next contestant on apologetics dive.

01:21:22

Come on down So we should put I should put that one up so everyone can read how he is We got a great or like I I love this audience drew.

01:21:30

I know you've you've mentioned this a number of times You know, I I love that You know for folks who are not watching live you really need to because the comments that go on Sometimes that I wonder if they're actually watching us

01:21:43

But then every once in a while, they'll comment on something. We're actually saying but there's like side debate sometimes we get people come in and Like some heretic comes in and the whole

01:21:53

I mean our audience is addressing it drew you've you've mentioned number time I love the fact that our audience prays for one another

01:22:00

This is it's a great audience and I I love that about our audience. I love that you guys have a kind of a community

01:22:08

I Think that you're really here not to listen to what we're saying, but just for the community You know,

01:22:15

I can hear Bob Barker in Atomic Apology. Yeah, John is saying why don't you do it in your best

01:22:23

Bob Barker voice? Oh, I can't but I hear the music The next contestant on apologetics live come on down It's just funny the way he put that all right,

01:22:37

John But you know with what Chris was saying it reminded me of one episode of voice of reason that I was listening to about a year ago and I was listening to something that rich was saying and he was talking about people on Twitter and How they're how they're acting when they're tweeting at liberal politicians right people who we would disagree with and then he described the type of person that he was talking about and I was

01:23:16

I was At first I was like, oh he's talking about me

01:23:23

Because he described my What my profile picture was on Twitter at that time, right?

01:23:29

I had a cowboy hat I had my obey God defy tyrant shirt, right and now

01:23:35

I know everything Everything that rich was saying Was absolutely true

01:23:44

Right, and he was pointing out that on Twitter. I was committing sin

01:23:51

Now I could have responded two ways right one of two ways I could have been

01:23:56

Offended and I could have immediately went on the defensive right or I could have responded how

01:24:03

I how I did I shared the episode and Then I said this is absolutely talking about me and I repent of this behavior

01:24:14

There you go Because the brilliance of Richard story is played like this

01:24:21

And I still stick to it now over the last 10 years off and on when it comes to ministry versus boxing

01:24:28

Boxing is far less violent So, there you go, that's the brilliance of the cohort and here he is the empty chair known as Chris Han holds

01:24:41

Look at that empty chair. That's kind of like when I debated the black yours. Oh, he took off Already Okay, we'll put it backstage.

01:24:49

That's always some folks may not remember I I had a the black Hebrew Israelites were always challenging me to a debate.

01:24:56

Oh, yeah, and and So we had three guys who's gonna be three against one

01:25:02

Right, so we're talking debates. So that's I guess more the topic tonight since Anthony wasn't here to make an argument for gay

01:25:10

Christianity, but I Remember that they blocked both me and the moderator like two days before the debate and The Bonner is like, what are we gonna do?

01:25:21

And I said, we'll do the debate. Anyway, he's like, who are you gonna debate? I said don't worry about it. Just introduce me.

01:25:28

I'll do the opening let and you let the black Hebrew Israelites introduce themselves He's like, okay

01:25:35

And so I come in I do the introduction I do my opening statement and we go to he goes

01:25:41

Well, we'll let the black heroes lights introduce themselves, and I put up a picture of an empty chair and that's who

01:25:47

I was debating it did what I Wanted it to do is to expose that none of them are willing to debate me

01:25:52

They talk about it online, but they weren't willing to actually do it and it did guilt one guy into debating me

01:25:59

What happened he lost how do I know he lost? Because I had tons of black heroes lights afterwards telling me that I needed to get them on the show

01:26:08

Because that guy that I had was a bad representation That's how you know that you won the debate because the people who agree with them are going no he lost

01:26:17

Okay, you agree with the position and you know, look There's Captain America You guys are incorrigible, thank you.

01:26:26

I take that as a badge of honor usually So so Chris that was a good show on That you did with you know,

01:26:37

Keith Foskey, which Keith is is you and Keith are like, I think that's trouble for you two together

01:26:44

The humor and stuff, but I'm still trying to figure out you mentioned a guy that's speaking at g3 And I was like, I don't even know that name.

01:26:50

I forget who that that name was. It was a Thornton I think it was I think he had a break.

01:26:56

It was awesome. Yeah, that's what somebody said. Is it? Break out session. He did a great job.

01:27:01

Okay incredible expositor incredible expositor Well, Ted Ted is telling us.

01:27:07

Good morning from Sydney, Australia to you brothers for your faithful ministry Good morning time to start your day

01:27:13

Ted. Your day is just starting go share the gospel today All right

01:27:20

Chris how was dinner? It was good. My wife is a good cook And We could tell

01:27:29

I've seen your belly you don't fit in America suit anymore. Yeah, that's why it stays in the closet Yeah, why don't you start working out with with Chris Hough here?

01:27:37

Yeah, you don't have to do the biking Way you did the biking with James White like just doing it you could do it

01:27:44

That lasted what what five minutes because it because of the weather out there You said it was hard to read but you could go

01:27:50

Go to a gym do the workouts with with the Huffer the Huffster and you know

01:27:58

He's begging you on Brother, that would be phenomenal. I mean just just get in the gym.

01:28:05

I'll tell you what I'll tell you what We'll figure a percentage. You have to lift the percentage of what

01:28:10

Chris lifts and run a percentage of what I run No, you start where you want to start I Don't want to die of a heart attack 1 %

01:28:21

You only have to do you only have to do You know point one three miles

01:28:27

You can handle that Chris Chris if you notice I haven't contributed Anything to this part of the conversation why because I don't run and I don't lift

01:28:36

The only thing that I agree with you on right you said your wife is a good cook

01:28:41

My wife is a good cook and I like eating her food. So she she made you okay

01:28:48

Oh, here we go I'm gonna have to go eat more after this which was supposed to be my lunch for tomorrow, but I'm so hungry for it now

01:28:56

Again, she makes this chicken. That's like a garlic butter chicken and it's so good

01:29:03

It just melts in your mouth It's amazing. All right, you know, I have no evidence to that Well, you know,

01:29:10

I would say I'll but I'd probably eat it up on the way to the

01:29:18

To the post office. I personally disagree. I Your wives might be good cooks.

01:29:23

My wife's a great cook. I'm just saying for the record. I Think in a cook -off she beats your wives just saying

01:29:30

I'm not doing a wife comparison. There's a good way to die in that conversation.

01:29:35

I'm not doing this Right. So speaking about cooking though, so this this past weekend

01:29:42

I was up at the overcoming evil men's retreat that John Harris put on true script actually put on Great great blog site if you want to check some good articles, but here's the thing

01:29:55

We had someone Lance and I cannot pronounce his last name. He's he's Japanese but You know, he's so he has one

01:30:06

He that's him. One of you guys are giving me feedback. I'm gonna try drew. No, it's not true. I'm gonna try Chris Yep, it was

01:30:12

Chris. Okay, Chris just unmute yourself when you want to talk. There's something that was I don't know what it is but I was getting it

01:30:18

I don't know if the audience was hearing it, but All right. So so just unmute yourself with you. So Lance is a professional chef.

01:30:28

Now when I say professional chef, he has gone on chopped and won twice and so when

01:30:35

I was gonna be Speaking with him. I was talking with you know, Ray Comfort and him did a cookbook together

01:30:40

I was talking to Ray about it. So Ray told me a story I had to actually go online and find it and see a quick There's a little clip of it, but when he won chop this the second time

01:30:49

He was up against someone and this this woman who's they I guess asked what you're gonna do with the money if you win and She said she was gonna go see her dying money mother.

01:31:00

I think in Italy and so when he won she's they they opened the thing and show who got who got cut and so she goes to walk off and and chef

01:31:10

Lance just goes wait a minute and she just stops turns around and you could see he's kind of thinking about what he's just about to do and He goes look

01:31:20

I wasn't planning on winning anyway, and and like you said, there's no losers here

01:31:25

I want to give you the money That I just want Go see your mother

01:31:32

Right. I mean what an amazing like, you know, and and so but this guy the the all right,

01:31:40

I Love to eat. I grant that but this guy got so excited about food

01:31:46

Like here's how to cut like here's how to cut a chicken, you know, like with a bone knife

01:31:53

Like he makes it like you're like, I actually want to go up to the Culinary Institute of America and take a class with him because he makes it like you're excited about cooking, you know

01:32:04

So I I want to I do want to taste what he could do It's like if he gets if he can give me that excited just hearing about it.

01:32:11

What's it taste like? So that was really cool, so we I didn't talk much about that conference that was a really good conference

01:32:18

I do know that the If you go on YouTube and search for truth script, you can hear the audios

01:32:29

I know my first message was not recorded or at least the audio wasn't recorded But my sermon on Sunday was we went through Isaiah 6

01:32:38

Kind of looking at what defines success in ministry and So that was good.

01:32:44

So all the the top the talks are there some really good talks Really enjoyed that.

01:32:50

I think I think we need to have more of that just brothers getting together Even though we may disagree theologically just sitting around a fire having discussion

01:32:59

That was it almost reminds me and I'll give a plug for it. Go check out search for open -air theology conference

01:33:06

February is when that's coming up that is the way Jeffrey Rice organizes that conference is so good because What he does it's like one hour message one hour break one hour message one hour break.

01:33:18

He ends it at 5 So he gives you more days. He has more days for the conference. So instead of trying to pack everything in he stretches it out

01:33:25

You after the conference is over 5 o 'clock. Everyone's going for dinner and Then it's like a theology throwdown at dinner

01:33:34

Every night because we get so many guys from different, you know perspectives. And so I really am looking forward to that one

01:33:44

Because I think it's only Two hours an hour and a half two hours away from where I live

01:33:50

So well, then you you and the Huffster have to come and I think we need to make sure that you know

01:33:56

Captain America there gets there Yes, it's early. It's February. You should have vacation time by then

01:34:04

Issue I keep telling you all this I we have zero budget You're you're you're telling me like that's a problem

01:34:13

You also remember the discussion you and I have had I don't want other people Getting me to and from things

01:34:19

Then you just miraculous you have it happen. Okay. No, just plan the time off.

01:34:25

You need to be at that conference Okay, we'll fight offline so you should really you would love it

01:34:33

Chris You really would I I went to it last year and I'm like I am excited to get back for this year

01:34:38

And this year is gonna be even bigger Topic of Calvinism, so that'll be fun.

01:34:45

Maybe we can invite Leighton flowers. I Mean James White is gonna be there.

01:34:51

He is gonna be there Maybe we could get you know Should I challenge late into a debate at that conference and see if we can get that in do like a pre -conference debate?

01:35:00

But the requirement is he actually has to stay for the conference so that he can hear that he's misrepresenting

01:35:06

Calvinism See the problem with that is that you Leighton wouldn't be able to do a four -hour live stream of whatever

01:35:12

He he wants to complain about so I don't think he'll take you up on it Yeah, well, that's true

01:35:20

So, all right, we got we got about 25 minutes left currently put John brother

01:35:25

John here saying great show I always learn new stuff listening to Andrew notice. He didn't say which

01:35:31

Andrew there's two here. It's just It's probably the guy that's over there.

01:35:36

I know because I Really brother John's only here when you're here.

01:35:41

Like I don't remember him being here when me and Aaron were here He was afraid of post -millennialism

01:35:48

Most people are but they also don't understand it either. So that's okay If you want to be post -millennial for like, you know 50 60 years go for it,

01:35:58

I mean you'll be millennial the rest of the time Yeah, I have no I have no problem

01:36:04

Actually having hope Yeah So, all right, let's let's switch gears and maybe this is the wrong thing to do with with 25 minutes left

01:36:17

But we did start talking about cessation ism. So let's let's discuss that right Chris You were talking about it earlier.

01:36:24

So, you know, he's saying come on bring it on So so let's deal with some of the different issues

01:36:30

This is gonna be that the topic that Justin Peters and I are covering when we go to the Philippines and in April I I have a feeling they're gonna call it strange fire, but I don't think that's copyrighted.

01:36:42

You know, also Well, I mean they called the other one snatched him from the flames from you know, son that uh, they got from Todd Friel But well,

01:36:51

I told him cannon who did the the cessationist movie. I told him when he does a second one

01:36:56

He needs to call it cessation is to the second blessing Actually, he just called the second blessing in there and all the

01:37:09

Yeah, that film is very well done I saw someone asking

01:37:15

Facebook user earlier if that movie is free. It's not So but but you can you can just search the cessation this movie and you can find out how to watch it

01:37:26

Going back to that g3 plus Again, you can you can watch it on there and you're talking

01:37:32

I think it's six bucks a month if you Yeah, five nine a month if you just go on your web browser and do it if you do it through the app

01:37:39

Apple likes to ding you for that extra money So save yourself a buck and do it that way and when they know when they announced it you get like the first 30 days

01:37:48

Free I think it is. So that's a way you can't tell you I'm kind of mad about that because I had the g3 app and I liked going and listen

01:37:56

Listening to the archive sermons and now they're behind a paywall and I can't listen to him anymore

01:38:03

Okay, I mean the trade -off is is you have the access to all the digital books and any like video content such as Cessation this movie, but yeah that Okay, that's so You know, we deal with this.

01:38:20

There's a couple arguments late. Let's let's deal with the argument. That is You know the main argument

01:38:27

I brought it up earlier. So this issue that the continuation of gifts You know, they'll say prophecy now.

01:38:35

What we'll say is that if if someone's giving prophecy Chris I have

01:38:41

I know you you've addressed this if someone's giving prophecy We would say as as cessationist that that is equal in authority to Scripture, right?

01:38:52

And so we would say it's not a closed canon So let me ask you Chris Hough So why like why do we make that argument help help folks understand the case that's being made there?

01:39:06

Why do I make the argument that the canon is closed? Well the we have from our perspective right we're gonna say the gifts cease the canons closed

01:39:15

They're gonna say the canons closed, but these gifts continue, right? Why would we? Yeah, that clearly goes against The epics that we see in Scripture of when signs wonders and those gifts were given

01:39:30

Give the gifts specifically were given to specific people for a purpose. There are three epics

01:39:36

You see it's it's it's Moses and then you got Elijah and Elisha and Jesus and the

01:39:42

Apostles The whole point let me just summarize it the whole point of the Lord endowing men with the ability to perform miracles gifts signs wonders, whatever words you want to use for that is to establish

01:39:58

The the authority of thus says the Lord So to say that to hold to a view and my shirt keeps falling that's why

01:40:09

I'm doing that not cuz of my arms Those big

01:40:16

Shoulders like boulders day So the whole the whole point of The gifts being given is to establish authority of the

01:40:32

Lord Sending out someone to say thus says the Lord you see that in Moses and Joshua You see that in Elijah and Elisha you see that with Jesus Jesus performed the miracles gift signs and wonders

01:40:42

Yes, because he had compassion on those around him But the whole point was to establish his authority as the

01:40:49

Messiah the reason those gifts were given to the Apostles The last Apostle that is ever the last

01:40:56

Apostle capital a Apostle that has ever existed is the Apostle Paul He wasn't the last one who died, but he was the last

01:41:02

Apostle There are there are certain requirements that you have to meet according to Scripture as far as what makes a capital a

01:41:09

Apostle So to say that we agree that the canon is closed However, we affirm that that the

01:41:17

Lord is still gifting Individual people with the ability to perform gifts signs and wonders

01:41:24

Goes completely against what the Scriptures teach What they clearly show you have to do some hermeneutical gymnastics

01:41:33

And and and you have to read frameworks into Scripture in order to come to an opposite conclusion

01:41:40

You cannot and Andrew I agree with you and I say this in love. I do

01:41:46

You cannot Ultimately all the way to its logical conclusion truly hold to Sola Scriptura or Tota Scriptura and Not to be a biblical cessationist

01:41:59

Yeah Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that You know like in a cessationist film that just came out right one of the things that they did was lay out

01:42:09

I mean, they basically laid out the argument I made at the Cessationist conference in Kootenai, you know, what the fact that you look at miracles as you're saying drew and there's three time periods

01:42:20

What's unique about those three time periods the new writing of Scripture? Why because these are regulatory gifts there.

01:42:25

They're validating the revelation Well, once it's validated you don't need those gifts to continue and and I think in the film

01:42:33

They said it's about 60 years, but I 65 40 years 65 roughly 65 in each epic

01:42:39

Yeah, and then Tom Pennington breaks it out in the book as well Yeah, and you'd like the one thing I did was say 40 because what you start seeing is within 40 years

01:42:47

They're starting to Peter out And so yeah, you may see them go a little bit longer but it's it's about 40 years that they that you see a lot of the gifts and Then they they

01:42:57

Peter out and so well, they're not they're not necessary It's not necessary because they serve the purpose which was to vindicate

01:43:05

Scripture and when you when you remove it if you go and go to go search cessationist conferencing

01:43:11

Kootenai and my my one on the fading of the New Testament miracles and what do you see you see if you get rid of the all of the

01:43:21

Miracles done by human beings Outside of those three time periods that Chris Hough mentioned you're left with seven miracles in 4 ,000 years of history

01:43:30

Correct. Why would we expect to see miracles today? And listen, listen if the

01:43:36

Apostle Peter Peter says this in 2nd

01:43:41

Peter and we have a more sure I'm sorry, and we have as more sure the prophetic word

01:43:49

Which you do well to pay attention to at pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place until the day dawns

01:43:56

And the morning star arises he's saying this almost back up to verse 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven

01:44:03

Think about what Peter experienced. He's talking about transfiguration He's talking about the the veil of flesh being removed from our

01:44:11

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ He sees that he experiences the crucifixion.

01:44:16

He sees the resurrected Christ. He sees the miracles He performs miracles give signs and wonders.

01:44:23

But what does he say? We have as as as more sure the prophetic word.

01:44:29

We don't need anything else We don't and I'll say this and I'll shut up if the

01:44:37

Lord if the Lord was was and he's not going to he's not going to because the scripture is

01:44:42

Is it it is written the cannon is closed So this is not gonna happen me, but he says they possess the gift of so -and -so.

01:44:50

No, they don't But if the Lord were going to give that gift to anyone it is not going to be the charlatans

01:44:57

Heretics false teachers those who prey on the weak the sick and the poor he if he was going to give that gift to people it would be people who actually fear him and Actually tremble at his word.

01:45:09

And that's the that's the point that Justin Peters made at the conference Chris on holds So just a point to make out because you guys are pointing out

01:45:17

I think something very important about the the how limited the miracles really are in Scripture how often they're they're shown

01:45:25

Here's my here's my can make my bone to pick with those who say oh we need to we should be expecting all these miracles

01:45:33

If you look at the New Testament you look at the the book of Acts and you look at the the epistles written following the birth of the church

01:45:42

What is the consistent drumbeat of Scripture? It is the Word of God the miracles pop up at various places

01:45:51

But for the for one purpose to validate what's being said and while You know

01:45:59

Continuationists will argue. Oh, well Paul says don't despise prophecy and he talks about tongues and such etc

01:46:05

What is his constant? Command to the Christian to be a student of the word to live according to the word to you know

01:46:13

Everything draws us back to the word The bulk of the Christian walk is informed not by miracles not by ecstatic utterances not by prophetic, you know, so -called revelations, but rather a consistent walk and understanding and exposition of the

01:46:34

Word of God, so if if a continuationist was genuinely

01:46:40

Looking to the Word of God and saying how do I thus? Perform that you know and do the miracles.

01:46:45

Well the Apostles and everybody else were extreme Expositors of the words they were students of the word.

01:46:53

They taught the word They taught how to live according to the word over and over and over again

01:46:59

Yet when you're dealing with many most continuationists as far as mainstream stuff

01:47:04

It is by far the worst exposition of Scripture the worst

01:47:09

Adherence to Scripture the worst understanding of Scripture It is everything about magnifying what they claim or guess or what are they claim our miracles?

01:47:19

Which don't even hold a candle to anything Scripture reveals and the worst Understanding of the word that most any deny any denominational view has

01:47:30

So I'm sorry If you want to tell me you believe in the gifts then let me start with you better be a student of the word because The ones who did that they were the students of the word and they're telling you to be such correct

01:47:42

You did not it have teachers of the word apart from miracles or miracles apart from teachers of the word

01:47:48

The actual word and look at what our Lord said himself He said in John he said if I told you earthly things and you do not believe how will you believe if I tell you?

01:47:56

Heavenly things yeah, you know miracles gift signs and wonders like if you don't believe what is written then then

01:48:04

No, you're not gonna test God in that way, that's not well, yeah, let's think about the gift of prophecy in In Scripture, how do we see it used right in the

01:48:16

Old Testament? What did it look forward to it looked forward to the coming Messiah when we get into the

01:48:23

New Testament it talks What are you know, we see Christ looking forward to his crucifixion to his resurrection

01:48:31

Then in the epistles we and in the in in the acts

01:48:37

We see them looking back to what Christ has done and then so what is prophecy to be today?

01:48:45

It's not to be a foretelling of the future Because there is nothing left that needs to be foretold the only thing that needs to be told is a

01:48:56

Foretelling of what has already taken place and that is the the works of Christ yeah, and so I think that one of the things that we see in the argument that is being made here is we have the argument that well the prophecy done today is somehow different than the prophecy of the

01:49:19

Bible and And therefore the prophecy done today could be wrong and in a station its cessation of film

01:49:26

It was addressed the people be why address because in the Bible, it's really clear 100 % accuracy is required

01:49:34

And so if you're not 100 % accurate you're dead So that kind of ends your next prophecy.

01:49:41

It doesn't make us false prophets. We just got it wrong Yeah, we just prophesied exactly what a false prophet does does yeah

01:49:50

Some Right, well and that's what I mean about twisting right you have to you have to twist what scripture says and and what it means by what it says you have to have a view of the

01:50:04

Old Testament that has Influences of Andy Stanley to where all will know

01:50:09

Hebrew says that that that that's obsolete that that that's gone No, it doesn't it says that the

01:50:15

Old Covenant is obsolete read Hebrews 8 9 and 10 It does not say that the law is obsolete

01:50:21

It does not say that the Covenant has been fulfilled by what Christ has done So to say that oh, well, no, no, that doesn't apply because Jesus well, so so you mean to tell me

01:50:32

You're gonna stand and say I'm a mouthpiece for God Think about that Well, they don't they don't there's no fear of the

01:50:42

Lord. There's no Trembling at his word as Isaiah 66 to says they don't understand

01:50:49

Yeah, the Lord like it's one of those things that when you when you stop and think about that and you see these people like I've heard

01:50:56

Justin Peters say this I Think we were talking about it last week is you know?

01:51:01

I don't understand sometimes how the Lord just doesn't take out Chris Ballatin or Corey Asbury or Bill Johnson or or people like that the reason is

01:51:13

He's more long -suffering for us, right? There's that there's very long -suffering the patients, right? We don't know if any one of them could be as the elect of the

01:51:20

Lord will save them praise the Lord for that We pray for that to happen, but also Storing up of wrath storing up of wrath.

01:51:27

That's exactly what I was gonna say. Yep And so I mean the whole point is when we we talk about prophecy

01:51:34

Again, what same with the debates? What do we do? We get back to the premise? What makes

01:51:39

Scripture authoritative? It's the source it's from God what makes prophecy authoritative because it's from God it's

01:51:46

God speaking We call the scripture God's Word because it's God speaking so whether prophecy or scripture their authority comes from the source now if you're claiming that you have a

01:52:01

Prophecy and it comes false. You're saying that God is a liar Okay, that's ultimately what you're doing and so but when you say well

01:52:10

I have a prophecy but it doesn't need to be in scripture but it is equal in authority of scripture because of the fact that it's a it's

01:52:17

Comes from the source of God. Yeah, you're saying God's that God told me God showed me the

01:52:22

Holy Spirit Impressed upon me all of those things are equal to Thus says the

01:52:28

Lord. Yeah Yeah, let me see. We got a couple minutes like five minutes late. Let me John says this

01:52:36

Nope. No, that was the wrong one. I wanted Tracy. Sorry. Sorry John, but I should read John since I put it up He said lots of false prophets on the internet for sure

01:52:44

Tracy said this. Can you talk about deliverance? So, let me let me just talk about deliverance real quick And I'm just gonna and I'm getting feedback from there was

01:52:54

Chris Han holds or Chris and both of them actually So, okay, you can unmute me.

01:52:59

I don't know why that is All right, so so let's talk to deliverance when so Tracy when

01:53:07

When and by the way, it's mr. Tracy, so he's clearly letting us know How he identifies we made that mistake a couple weeks ago so What you end up seeing with deliverance ministries is that they claim they're delivering people from demons, but they have a demon for everything

01:53:26

And their demons are to make excuses for human behavior Oh, you have a demon of alcohol.

01:53:32

That's why you get drunk. You have a demon of gluttony Oh, you have a demon of adultery. Everything's a demon to excuse behavior, that's sinful

01:53:40

I Wonder if he's talking about the isn't there a movie that came out called deliverance by What what's the guy's name

01:53:50

Greg Groeschel or someone Greg Rochelle, no not hit

01:53:56

Greg Locke Locke yes, come out with a movie called deliverance. I think that that's what okay

01:54:02

About the movie then I can't speak to that. I didn't see it. Yeah, I didn't say that I okay

01:54:07

But but I think it's the same premise of what you're you're talking about. So, please continue what you're saying

01:54:13

Okay Well, I'll talk about the deliverance ministries that people have because I mean when it comes to deliverance ministries

01:54:18

Here's what I say people are healing giving deliverance My challenge to anyone who says they have the gift of healing now if they have the gift they can exercise it

01:54:30

It's not based on the person's The the person's faith. Okay, nine lepers were healed by Jesus.

01:54:38

Only one seemed to have faith. The other nine never came back Their faith was is so they didn't have faith and they still got healed.

01:54:46

So it's not based on the faith That's a cop -out if you have the ability to heal.

01:54:52

I will gladly go with you and a Video camera to the Children's Hospital.

01:54:58

Let's empty it out. It's very simple I don't believe anybody who says they have the gift of healing and That they love their neighbor and they have a hospital in their community

01:55:08

If you loved your neighbor you'd empty that thing out. That's what the Jesus did

01:55:14

They healed everybody and so do that and if you're if you're not it's all will don't tempt the

01:55:21

Lord You'd be you'd be displaying his glory Unless you're doing it for yourself that you know, so just saying and so we look at the deliverance ministries

01:55:31

I just see a lot of it as Something where people do that to to basically still get money

01:55:39

I mean, it's like okay giving the money and what we're gonna do these healings I mean, I think about when Justin Peters and I went to the

01:55:46

Kenneth Copeland Conference and they're doing a healing thing. We weren't there for the healing thing

01:55:51

But Kenneth Copeland goes to heal a guy who's who's in a wheelchair and accidentally pushes the guy over And they just look at him on the floor and go like, okay, they help him up Put him leave him in his wheelchair and and couplings are cooking.

01:56:02

I'll just keep walking on right? I mean, that's the thing if they're they're charlatans, so And the greatest thing we need oh, yeah, can

01:56:12

I just say to you I mean people who do that To quote our our brother

01:56:18

Justin Peters And I think he puts it very succinctly and very very wisely and very graciously and with it with a shepherd's heart.

01:56:25

He says How seared does your conscience have to be? To go.

01:56:31

Well, I don't have to prove myself if the Lord is Providentially miraculously

01:56:37

Supposedly given you the gift of being able to heal people's elements

01:56:45

Ailments, excuse me, and if and you don't exercise that and use that for people like Children's Hospitals and Stuff like that and and then and then while while speaking the truth of the whole

01:57:00

Gospel of God and of our Lord Jesus Christ to to not only meet a temporal need but to to Pray that the

01:57:08

Lord would use that to save them to meet the the need that we all have How can sinful man be raped made right with a holy

01:57:14

God? And if that your response to that is I want to prove myself to you Then that just shows you the

01:57:20

Holy Spirit himself does not live in you and you are of your father the devil Yeah, man, and that's that's every false prophet of the

01:57:29

Old Testament that is every false teacher that is every Charlatan who led Israel into idolatry.

01:57:35

Yeah that we we are the ones who know you need to follow us if you if you don't these are the consequences and that is the mark that is the mark of a

01:57:45

Genuinely false prophet because the prophet had to say well you have to listen to me

01:57:51

So, let's say we're gonna wrap up tonight next week drew me I don't know if Aaron will be back or maybe

01:57:57

Chris Huff will be back or maybe Chris Han holds will surprise us Wouldn't that be nice? We will have something for you next week.

01:58:05

I won't be here I'll cover your prayers the week after we will have hopefully an argument for gay

01:58:11

Christianity Well, I guess I'm not hopeful that we have that argument, but we'll have a response And so But I I do think it's important Let friends know in two weeks that we're gonna talk about that Why because I want you guys to be able to hear someone who actually holds to the position

01:58:28

So you hear how they're arguing so that you're able to handle it So when you hear these arguments, you're ready with an answer because folks this is not going away

01:58:38

In fact, it's gonna be getting worse We're gonna be hearing more of this. So So I'll leave you with that we'll cut out with a little message from well,

01:58:47

I guess me and We'll see you next week. Remember to strive to make today and turn up day for the glory of God.

01:58:54

See you next week Systems are based on system of morality of good works what makes

01:59:00

Christianity unique It is is not a system of morality. It is about Jesus Christ Buddha is dead.

01:59:07

Muhammad is dead. Joseph Smith is dead. Mary Baker Eddie is dead Jesus Christ rose from the dead if Jesus Christ was not both fully man and fully

01:59:16

God There would be no payment of sin. This was a debate in the first century Jesus Christ was fully man.

01:59:23

It's important to note that he did not have a human father Therefore he did not inherit a sin nature

01:59:29

Jesus Christ not only had to be fully man But he also had to be without sin never breaking any part of God's law

01:59:36

If if Jesus was not a man, then people would have no payment of sins But Jesus Christ is also fully