Update With Formerly Jailed Canadian Pastor James Coates

Justin Peters

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Hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Justin Peters. I hope that you and your family are doing well today

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I want to thank you so much for joining me for this podcast Today I have the privilege of interviewing

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James Coates. James is the pastor of Grace Life Church in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and Many of you who are familiar with my channel

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You've probably already seen the interview that I did with James a number of months ago last year

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But one year ago today James was sitting in a prison cell

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He had been arrested simply because he kept his church open in defiance of what the

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Canadian government was telling churches to do at the time that was to shut down because of COVID and His arrest and incarceration made a lot of news

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Rightly so and it created a lot of discussion dealing with Romans 13

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And so I've already interviewed him But it's been quite a while and I wanted to give you an update on James and his family how they're doing how the church is doing

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Since his arrest and and also talk about a brand new book that he and dr.

01:08

Nathan Busenitz have written Entitled God versus government. So we're gonna cover a lot of ground in this relatively short interview

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But I also want to let you know that for reasons that are a complete mystery to me

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My zoom Program is not working, right? Anytime I interview someone on this channel always use zoom and I record it

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Obviously have never had any trouble with it. But now all of a sudden zoom has decided to record my guests

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But not me It does record my audio but not my video

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So you'll you'll see James coach. You'll hear James coach. You will hear me, but you will not see me

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So I have no idea why I'm at a loss But anyway, if any of you tech folks out there

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Know what the problem might be Drop it in the say something in the comments and I'll try to look for it

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So anyway, so I do apologize for that But it shouldn't be too much of a distraction and I'm more interested in you seeing

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James than me Anyway, so, all right. Well, thank you very much new ones. Let's go to the interview

02:18

James brother, it is good to have you again on the program. I think it's been six or seven months or so It's been a little while.

02:25

So really Grateful to have you back on and give us an update of all that has transpired since we last talked

02:35

So first just give us an update on on how you're doing Yeah, overall,

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I'm doing pretty well I think both Aaron and I have realized the last year or so has caught up to us a little bit so as far as our energy level and and the need for a bit of a pit stop that's dawned on us and So we were taking some steps to be able to charge our batteries a little bit before we head into the next leg of the race

03:00

To summertime and we would normally take a longer fuller Stop, but we're doing well family's doing well

03:07

Things are vastly different than they were a year ago a year ago this time. I was in prison

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So so things are vastly different than they were a year ago and And so we're we're hanging in there doing well keeping our hand of the plow and and doing the work of the ministry

03:24

Good good, brother. Well, it's so glad just so grateful for you and the witness and all of us grieve over all of the trials that you've been through but Romans 828

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God is using these things in his Providence to Further his kingdom and sanctify you and all of us

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So, how about the church? How is your pastor of grace life

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Edmonton? how is the church been doing since since your incarceration and release and that dynamic

03:59

We're doing well. We're adjusting we we've had the last three Sundays We've had uh over 900 in attendance and that would

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Get us nearer to the tripling in size. We're doing two services at this point in time

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We were about 350 on average pre -covid And now we're you know, we're seeing our numbers continually climb people are coming because they're hungry for the word of god

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Yes, they're hungry for the gospel and so we're seeing that take place and now as a church as far as the

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Leadership and the infrastructure we have in place for bible studies and all the various ministries that That we execute for the building up of the body of christ.

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We're we're adjusting And trying to accommodate this numerical growth that's taken place

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You know, we've essentially outgrown our facility So we we really do need a new facility a lot of folks would say well, why don't you plan a church?

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Well, the challenge is that when you plan a church, you got to send out a portion of your leadership And so you send out a portion of your leadership and a group goes out

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And now you're you're depleted at your leadership level and what will likely happen If the trend carries on is that the folks that left will be replaced by others

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So now you'd be in the same place with the same size church, but like potentially half the size of the leadership and so Planning a church requires that you get your leadership to the place where you can actually send guys out without it harming

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The group that remains and so we're just not there yet we're still in the process of Of of building out the number that we need.

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We're about six Well six right now as far as our leadership is concerned and we're looking at doing an internal hire

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So we'll take one of our non -staff elders and and potentially make that guy a staff elder

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And we're also looking at trying to bring in A guy from the outside who can come in And and take up the baton of the counseling ministry because we did end up sending one of our elders

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To another church a sister church a couple of hours away because that pastor

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Experienced very similar, uh things that we had as far as their their body growing through covet 19, but he was solo

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No plurality. Oh And he needed help. So yeah, so we sent out one of our guys to go along and help him and and so yeah, we're just trying to navigate the the challenges of Of having having nearly tripled in size now

06:27

That's amazing. That's amazing. I mean, it's a it's a good problem to have but uh, that kind of growth that that amount of growth in that short a period of time that's bound to cause some uh,

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Growing pains, I guess to use that phrase You know in my experience in ministry so far

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We were continually behind the curve as our church was growing from when I first came until uh pre covet 19

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Then we got to a place where things were fairly stable our numbers weren't really growing significantly and and our leadership was now at that critical mass where we were

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We were building guys, uh from the congregation into the leadership And so we had gotten to a number of seven with about 350

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In terms of our congregation two staff guys an admin guy um and and then covet 19 happened and we're back to behind the curve again, so My my experience in ministry has been that we've been behind the curve consistently

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We had a little window where things seemed just right and the lord decided to do You know something that none of us could have planned for and and that's kind of why i'm not a visionary

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I don't I don't have like a vision for you know, five year ten year plan because I don't know what you're gonna do

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We're just trying to be faithful week in and week out preach the word And and seek to present every man woman and child complete in christ

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So you mean you mean all this growth happened without you casting a vision? Uh beforehand you didn't have to do that.

07:57

You don't have to do any vision casting for all this Zero vision casting we've i've done zero vision casting in ministry thus far

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I just I just you know i'm in a book of the bible and I I preach verse by verse that book of the bible and the lord just Blesses out of the the preaching of the word imagine that You know, it's it's been interesting james since um, so covid happened, uh

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It kind of burst on the scenes almost two years ago right about now really got everybody's attention and then um everything shut down so for several months in 2020

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I didn't travel anywhere. All my preaching engagements were were either canceled or postponed

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But then in july of 2020, I started traveling again And um, I mentioned this on a previous video recently, but every single church i've been to Since july of 2020 up until now that has had me in to preach every single one of them has grown

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And it has been a fascinating observation, uh when so many churches shut down And uh, and quite honestly a lot of these churches that shut down it's a blessing because they're not they weren't real churches but what you have is

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When all these churches shut down the only ones that were still open Were the ones that were doctrinally sound that took or take rather hebrews 10 25 seriously and so Given that god has his sheep all over the place

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When these churches shut down Well, the sheep are looking around for a place to be fed

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And lo and behold the only churches that are open are the doctrinally sound churches And they've grown.

09:39

Yeah Literally every single church i've been to that's not to say that maybe someone some church somewhere that's a good church hasn't grown, so I don't want to Imply that but it's definitely it's been an interesting observation and has certainly been true with with you up in edmonton

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Well, yeah, and that shows two people are hungry for the truth Like I know a lot of the folks that are attending grace life now because their churches were closed

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It gave them an opportunity to listen to live streams of other churches And and they began to listen to our live stream and they were going okay

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This is different than what i'm typically used to like the depth of the preaching coming from the grace life pulpit not

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Consistent with what i'm seeing in my own church And so that's where that develops and then people who end up coming to grace life

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They could have been watching us online for six months a year, whatever it is Finally, they've decided to make grace life home because they can't get away from the preaching of god's word

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That's coming from our pulpit. So amen people are hungry for the word of god That's a good thing. I mean that that's that's the stuff of revival and I think

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In some ways there maybe is a bit of revival happening right now A lot of the churches in canada, for example that would have the same testimony they've grown as a result of covet 19

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They're seeing more people get saved in this time than they've ever witnessed in their ministry

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And and that's nothing To like that doesn't even mention the spiritual growth that's taking place as a result of everything that's happening so The lord is definitely working

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And and it's amazing that he's doing it when he does which is somewhat predictable because we know from acts for example he used persecution to to increase the the spread of the gospel and so we see that principle throughout even church history where Persecution results in the word of god going forth with greater power

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And and that's what we're seeing now. Yeah, indeed indeed yeah, absolutely god grows his church and uh, uh in you know, you mentioned people who want to be fed and want to hear good preaching and and even if they have come from a

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A church background that doesn't have expository preaching, but they find you during covet and once they hear it

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Once they hear what true exposition is Real preaching is then then they latch on to that and once you get a taste of that if you're truly a christian you can never go back to the

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Three points in a poem kind of preaching, you know, right? Yeah, absolutely

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Well, that's wonderful brother. That's wonderful good update so, um

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Give us another update this time on your on the legal machinations and all of that that's going on a lot of people might think that you're kind of you're out of the woods because you're out of prison but uh, unfortunately some of that stuff is still yet to be

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Ironed out and played out. So where do where does all of that stand james? Well, yeah to say at the outset the consequences for anything

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Are are fundamentally minor at this point in time in comparison to imprisonment. I mean, yeah at this point in time

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We're looking at the possibility of fines Okay, and even if that ends up being in the tens of thousands of dollars, uh, that's fundamentally minor in light of what we've experienced so Uh, there are two legal pieces that remain one relates to me personally the other relates to the church as a corporation um, and so The one that relates to me personally has been waiting for a decision to come down on a case that just wrapped up at the end

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Of february it's in a higher court and it's basically dealing with the same issue so once that decision comes in then my my phase two of my personal difficulties are

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My personal, uh issues with the with the courts will take place And whatever the decision is on the higher court is going to shape that decision so, um, and and we really in canada haven't gotten much in the way of positive development

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And and contribution from our court system, you know in contrast to the u .s We had for example jacob reum and he has trinity bible chapel.

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They just got their Constitutional challenge decision from uh their judge this week and I would encourage folks to go to his

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Blog on his church's website and and see him Analyze the significance of that decision

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Okay, even showing how? the judge though he didn't rule in our favor because he deemed the infringement on the the civil liberties of trinity bible chapel um to be to be warranted in light of the the

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The virus and the pandemic and everything else. He nevertheless recognized that their rights were infringed upon And so he had he was actually more theologically astute than many pastors have been in this time

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And so really a thoughtful lucid Analysis of that decision so we haven't really had anything positive come from our court system here in canada that's a little bit positive because it recognizes that our our

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Charter rights were being infringed upon with some of the restrictions being placed on gatherings That's a positive thing.

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But in the end because of section one of our charter so long as it's justifiable Proven to be justifiable and he deemed it was then then there's a limitation.

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That's it That's that basically is placed on all of our charter rights, uh, assuming the right circumstances are in place to limit them

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So anyway, we haven't gotten anything positive. So we're not holding our breath In this case either

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And and so that's that as far as the the court summons for the church I I forget when that's going to take place.

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I think too. It's waiting for The the case that that had to happen before my personal phase two would take place as well so that decision will be shaped by that also,

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I think and uh, You know we We could plead guilty

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And then have a lower fine Yeah, but we're we're not planning to plead guilty at all.

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Yeah, even if it results in more money so Right. Um, so we don't plan to plead guilty and and so that stuff

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Yeah, I don't really think about all that like I don't really pay much attention to it Um, it's not it's not something that's on my mind.

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Nothing that I worry about nothing that i'm concerned about um, it's really just kind of a formality now in the court system, obviously it has the possibility of establishing precedent going forward and and bad precedent for the church is not going to be good in light of the

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Difficulties that we anticipate are on the horizon. Yeah, but uh, it is what it is and the lord knows

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Right, right. Okay Well, I imagine whatever those, um Fines turn out to be if there are any indeed but but if there are

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I think there will be a an outpouring of support for you guys and um, so appreciate

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Yeah, so when do you expect to to hear definitively or you don't yet? No, it's hard to know because when it comes time to making their decisions they can take quite a while So it could be any day

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I think they they may have given like a an approximation Date, but it can take them time to To draft these these decisions so it could be

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I would say probably any time but but that could it could take a month. I'm not sure Yeah, okay

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And um, unfortunately, you were you were scheduled to speak at the uh shepherds conference

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Which as of this recording is coming up next week uh, but you're not going to be able to To join us there.

17:36

Are you? No, I um, i'm not going to be able to be there We thought we had an avenue into the country that was going to going to be successful to get me down to the conference

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But I was denied at the border back in january As I tried to get to tom askew's conference the founders ministries conference.

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Yeah, and and that that denial at the border impacted this trip in the end and so I'm going to be uh, i'm going to be taking in the conference through live stream

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Okay, are you are you still going to preach through the live stream? Did y 'all get that worked up? No, i'm not actually john mccarthur's going to do a q a in lieu of my session at that time

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But I will be live streaming in for a breakout session with nathan boosnitz It's connected to the book that just came out on tuesday god verse government

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So I will do that And that'll be the extent of my shepherds conference festivities.

18:30

All right. Okay Well, we will miss you brother I was really looking forward to seeing you but um god's providence and everything uh but you uh, you provided a good segue into my next question and that is

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The book god versus government. This is a new book that you and dr

18:51

Nathan boosnitz have written together And it's the two of you correct. You're the only two authors.

18:57

That's correct. John mccarthur wrote the forward You wrote the four too bad. You couldn't have gotten somebody better to write the forward for you

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Yeah, and the forward is worth the price of admission, right? I mean, um, just the forward alone is is really solid

19:10

So yeah, yeah Well, I told you the other day on the phone I've ordered three copies and uh, but I have not received them yet.

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And so I I can't really I don't know I mean I can kind of tell from the title and what you've been through with i'm sure romance 13 will probably feature pretty prominently in Your book, but but tell us a little bit more about the book

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What is the subject matter and uh kind of break it down for us a little bit? What can people expect?

19:36

Well, you can kind of think of the book as being divided into two sections One is our story and the other is our stand in our story nathan boosnitz tells what happened with grace community church and all of the the run -ins with the governing authorities that they

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Experienced as they kept their church open. So he He starts there and that's how the book begins then we shift to my story the grace life story and that would be

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You know the fullest clearest comprehensive Description of what took place start to finish in terms of our battle with the governing authorities and and I take you in On the inside to the boardroom at times to my prison cell at times

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I really bring the reader into all the ins and outs of what was happening to kind of relive it

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Almost vicariously as I describe all that took place. So even as I wrote that portion of the book

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I really I had to relive everything and you would stop writing at certain points And you'd know where you were like i'd stop and I knew the next step was turn myself in And so as I pull away from the computer

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I mean i'm i'm aware that that's where I am and that that's what i've got to relive And it was a challenge at times to relive some of that But I think beneficial and helpful to be able to get it down on paper

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In as clear and comprehensive a way as I was able to do for that portion of it So so then it's it's it's my story and that that concludes like the first half of the book and then in the second half we get into a framework to be able to Think about the christian and the church in relationship to government and how it is that we need to navigate

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The the the issues that may arise with respect to the governing authorities infringing on the headship of christ over his church when civil disobedience is

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Warranted even mandated And and so we get into that and then there's a couple of chapters that are connected with that That are our sermons that nathan and I have preached that were reworked for the sake of this book

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The time has come is is in there That was my december 20th sermon and then the the directing government to its duty

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That's romans 13 and and that that's in there as well been reworked and improved for the sake of the book

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And uh, and then nathan's got one on the psalms. It's in there as well. So Really? Um, I think a useful resource, uh something that's going to benefit

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Uh believers be edifying even just to read the stories of each church and what we went through Oh, yeah, and then the framework

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I think we need to really strengthen our understanding of romans 13 And when it's time to obey god not men

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Yeah Indeed and that that's been a big, uh issue of course through in the last couple years.

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It's it's forced uh us to To really examine romans 13 in a way that we've not really had to do up until now at least not in modern history

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Um, when do we obey god when do we obey the government and um,

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You preached a sermon on romans 13. I'll put a link down in the description below Uh to that that was very helpful helpful for me as well.

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And um Now with that one, are you thinking of the one that I preached in january? Um, I don't remember when it was so I just it was before your arrest

22:55

Okay, yeah, so I preached another one since then and I I preached it in january and it was one that I was going to Be preaching at founders ministries and uh, and that one

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I think it's up to 50 000 views on our website and uh, And I in some ways

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I almost think that was the best of the three um, because it it um

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Yeah, I mean i've i've preached romans 13 now three times I don't know if i'll ever preach it again to be honest unless i'm preaching through romans which

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I plan to do next after john, but But uh, yeah, I mean i've kind of been able to hit it from three separate angles and uh,

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And so even the one that I preached in january, I think is is worth a listen for sure Oh great.

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Okay. I was not aware of that. So I will I will put the link to that one In the description and i'll listen to it myself.

23:43

So i'll look forward to that That's great So and you've made the point before that all authority

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Exercise by any institution on earth is delegated authority, right?

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Because all authority ultimately belongs to christ and when any earthly institution exceeds

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Uh goes against the authority of christ or goes against his will his commands then they've they've exceeded their their parameters

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Yeah delegated authority implies by implication Limitation on that authority and purpose of that authority if god delegates something to someone

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There are parameters that shape what it is that they're to do with that authority And and that's the case with the governing authorities right now governments want to assume a totalitarian

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Authority over everything whereby it is the top dog It's the authority above all other authorities over the home the church the individual that's not the way god designed it

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And and we're in contexts now that have been shaped by a biblical worldview canada

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The u .s. And there are constitutions in place that reflect that and recognize the supremacy of god

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And so we have a responsibility With the revelation of god in romans 13 to ensure that we are holding government accountable teaching them what their true role is to To reward good as god defines it and to punish evil as god defines it and and and ultimately to to use their authority in a way that's consistent with their

25:19

Role as a diakonos of god a servant of god Yeah, so if we don't do that, like if we don't inform the government on what it is

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They should be doing who's going to do that. We're the stewards of the mysteries of god. And so we need to instruct the government on that and it also means that when they're outside of their lane and Overreaching in their authority.

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We've got to oppose and resist them. It's loving to god. It's loving to neighbor It's loving to our governing authorities allowing the government

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To be tyrannical and to just kind of roll over in the face of that tyranny. It's not loving to them

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It's we need to give them a clear indication that they are at a step with the will of god and they're going to be held accountable ultimately before God in the end anyway, so yeah, so we need to make sure that they're aware of that and and so yeah,

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I think Romans 13 we've um We've just needed to think more deeply about that text and and this has forced us to do that and there are still a lot of folks out there that have a very one -dimensional

26:21

Yeah understanding of romans 13 almost emphasizing that chapter to the neglect of all of The whole council of god right and uh, and it's just it's deficient incredibly deficient.

26:35

Yeah, it is indeed It is indeed. I've i've seen a lot of comments from people whether it's in reference to um your church or any of these other churches that remained open in defiance of the local or state

26:49

Authorities telling them to shut down and they always quote romans 13. What about romans 13 out?

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You know, they're disobeying god. They're in direct contradiction of romans 13 and and they don't love their neighbors and you know, da da da da da da and so Uh, we'll probably i'm sure we'll have some some of those folks with that mindset watching this interview

27:09

And uh, if you are one of those and I would encourage you please Listen to james sermon on romans 13 and get his book um, read it and in his book and nathan busen's book read it and Consider the arguments that they make and uh,

27:26

I can't wait to get it brother I mean, I haven't read it, but I I know where you're going with it and I can't wait to get it

27:31

I think it'd be a an immensely helpful resource Yeah, we're excited about it. We really are.

27:37

Yeah. Well, thank you so much james Yeah, well brother, how can uh, how can folks be praying for you?

27:44

How can we support you or do you have any needs? Uh, I know that you've um, you're you're yours and tim stephens

27:53

Uh faithful faithful witness, uh have encouraged an awful lot of people. I know a lot of people their hearts are knit to yours

28:00

Yours and uh and tim stephens as well in your respective flock So if folks want to help how can they do that and where can they get the book?

28:08

Well, just to say I mean tim is going through all the same stuff that we're going through as far as his church

28:14

Blooming and everything else. So yeah, I love that that brother and and grateful for him, you know in our case

28:22

I'm, not sure what to say. We don't have any immediate needs now. I mean what we may do When we kind of get concepts in place and and everything else is we may do a a worldwide building fund drive to to acquire land and build a building that would be sufficient to be able to House the the ministry that's taking place at grace life church.

28:45

I mean even now Because of the limited classroom space and the number of children we're turning kids away from sunday school so Um, so that's big for us right now.

28:55

We're trying to get properly staffed And so that's internal hire external hire

29:00

Uh, we we we're starting to think through the need to build a larger facility To be able to do all the things that we're doing.

29:07

We would love to see the master's seminary come to grace life church and be A distance learning location for the master's seminary and and that's there's some talk about that and we're we're working through that That'd be great.

29:19

So that's that's I think where a lot of it comes down to I mean on a personal level You can certainly be praying that i'd get just a little more wind a little charge on my battery to get back into the the saddle and and uh

29:32

Get my way into the summertime for a more extended extended break But aside from that,

29:39

I I don't know that I have a ton Of uh of prayer requests to bring. Yeah.

29:44

Okay james Well, thank you so much and your book that's available Of course on amazon, but uh, where else is there any other place that people can get it?

29:55

Yeah christian books. I mean, um I don't know what you guys have there in the u .s

30:00

Like we've got indigo and so it's available through indigo. I think basically anywhere you would normally purchase books.

30:07

It's available And uh, it's doing well. It's it's number one in a couple of categories

30:12

Wow one on canada church and state one in the u .s on Religious intolerance and persecution so it's already doing pretty well

30:20

We want people to to pick it up and and be benefited by it and uh, just really

30:26

Excited to see how the lord's going to use it. Yeah Well, brother, I think this will be an immensely helpful resource especially not not just for kovid because by god's grace looks like we may be kind of coming out on the other side of that but you know

30:41

With all with all apologies to our post -millennial friends, um things aren't going to get better For the church.

30:48

I mean as far as the the the Climate and the attitude towards the world of the world towards the church things aren't going to get better They're not going to get any easier

30:57

This is not the last battle that the church is going to face As far as its freedoms, uh, so I think this will be a very helpful resource

31:07

From here on out. Yeah, it's almost more relevant today than it was when we wrote it so I think that's true and you know as it relates to you know our our view of of eschatology,

31:19

I mean Though we might be somewhat pessimistic as far as the the the trajectory of things that doesn't call us to retreat

31:28

That as things get dark That's an opportunity for the light to shine more brightly So so we intend

31:35

Even if if this thing is going to implode we intend to shine bright for christ and be a city on a hill

31:42

And and draw his people unto himself through the preaching of the gospel amen, amen as a you and I share the same eschatology, uh, and and as a pre -millennial guy dispensational

31:54

I I'm pessimistic for uh, the state of the world, but i'm eternally optimistic about the church

32:02

Um, the gates of hell will not prevail against it christ is the head of the church and uh, so i'm not concerned about His flock his his body.

32:12

Um in the least it will do what what he has. Uh, decreed the church to do so amen

32:21

Yes, indeed well, james, please give our warm greetings to aaron and the boys and uh,

32:28

And the folks there at grace life edmonds and also put a link to the to your church not that you need any more growth, but if If by some chance some folks are watching this in your area, uh, i'll put a link to the church where they can find you

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So thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you for having me appreciate you and all you're doing your ministry and and yeah too bad

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We can't connect Underneath the sunshine the la sunshine. Yeah, I know right?

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I don't know. Yeah, it's probably Probably would have been a nice little respite for you to get out of the

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Great white north for a few days. But oh, yeah, I I could use some vitamin d right about now

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Yeah, I bet so All right Well james god bless you, brother. Thank you so much.

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Thanks. Justin All right Well, dear ones. I hope that this was encouraging for you

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And thank you so very much for watching all of the pertinent links down below in the description Until our next time together may the grace of our lord jesus christ the love of god and the fellowship of his holy spirit