The Last Adult in the Room: Voddie Baucham

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00:23

And welcome to the American Churchmen podcast, where we encourage men to take responsibility, love the

00:28

Lord, lead their family. And I have with me my co -host Matt Pearson. How are you doing,

00:34

Matt? I'm good, John. Feels like we haven't done one of these in a minute. My life has been a bit chaotic as of recent, but I'm happy to be back.

00:43

Is chaos the way to describe a newlywed? I don't know. Well, I would not say as bad posts, but leading up to it was definitely kind of crazy.

00:53

And then my work schedule has just been all over the place. So that's why I say chaotic. That's why. Well, we have to talk about this, because the last time

01:00

I talked to you, you were a single man and that man died. You don't exist anymore.

01:06

You're now, I mean, you're going to help me understand this a little bit. Some of the Zoomers say, some of the

01:12

Zoomer males, I mean, you're basically enslaved now, right? I mean, you just do everything she tells you to do.

01:17

Am I understanding correctly? That's what's going on? Yeah, absolutely. By becoming a fake sell by law,

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I've signed my life away and I now submit in all things to my matriarch. I do all the house chores while she makes some money so that I can go to seminary.

01:32

No, no. And how long is the house you live in? How long? Oh, it's a, it's a very long, it's a very long house.

01:40

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I saw some of the pictures and you guys, you look very happy.

01:46

It looked like a beautiful wedding. I want you, I'm just not going to talk. I'm gonna let you talk about it. In fact,

01:51

I'll, here, here, let's do this. We'll make Matthew, can I, I don't know how

01:56

I make you full screen. I'm going to figure it out here. We're going to make you full screen, but I want to hear about the wedding and just everything that has transpired in your life.

02:05

Cause these are big things. And I think it's really encouraging for people, especially the last few days, as I've heard people black pill on marriage and there's no good women and all of that.

02:13

And you're a Zoomer male, you just got married. And so yeah, why don't you talk about that?

02:20

Maybe talk a little bit about how you even started dating because I feel like to get the whole story, you need to start there.

02:27

How did you even meet your wife and go from A to B from, from single to married?

02:33

Yeah, I guess for the, for the sake of the discourse, I can get into some stuff, but being you know, an actual man and describing a wedding or wedding planning,

02:43

I'm not going to give you much. I'll let you know I was married. You know, I had a fun time at the wedding. It was good.

02:49

Yeah. You know, nothing, nothing went wrong or anything, but that that's about as much as I can get into.

02:54

I'm sure that if you ask her or any of the other women involved, they can probably give you a whole tirade of all the things that happened.

03:01

But yeah. But in general, I would say like, I do very much sympathize with a lot of what my generation is going through.

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I saw a statistic the other day. It was actually on Twitter where this guy had like posted about how 16 % of men like under like at age 30 or under 30 are married, whereas 25 % of women at age 30 or under are married.

03:28

And so there definitely is that gap and it is like very difficult. And I will definitely say that with, with my particular situation,

03:35

I was a bit blessed because I was friends with her brother for a bit. Like we weren't like best friends or anything, but we were, we were cool buds.

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And like one day he just texted me being like, Hey, my sister thinks you're like, you know, like my sister's interested or yada, yada.

03:47

And then from there I kind of, you know, played ball, I guess. But I definitely, like I said,

03:54

I sympathize a lot with this generation because there are like with what is encouraged in the culture, there are just like a lot of women that just that, to be quite frank, or they, they sleep around a lot.

04:07

They're not interested in relationships. They want to wait a long time till later to settle in.

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A lot of the girls that you might meet at church can oftentimes be much more reserved. They're not like interested in relationships.

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So you leave the world where, you know, sometimes like a non -Christian women or even sometimes

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Christian women can act in manners unbecoming of godly Christian women. And men do the, you know, men will do things similar as well.

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Like there's an entire epidemic where not even just my generation of men, but a lot of men are just, you know, they, they cannot like stop looking at I'll just call it cornography just in case

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YouTube like wants to censor, but they can't stop looking at that and watching it. And so there's definitely, you know, problems and in both sides, but I mean, there is hard to find women out there in the world, but even when you go in the church, like there's a lot of times where women will either just, they're not interested in any of the guys of the church.

04:57

They're interested in all these other guys out there. And if you try to ask one of them out, then the next thing, you know, is the word goes around that,

05:05

Oh, this guy asked me out. And that somehow is treated as taboo. I actually had somewhat of a similar experience where I asked like this one girl out of church and then like she told like a bunch of people like about it and it was just kind of like a whole situation.

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So I definitely understand the hesitation. I don't want to fault them too much for it. So and I even know one guy who he got on a dating app.

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He met this girl, the buddy of mine, when he met this girl, he was 38 years old. She's a 35,

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I believe. And believe it or not, they got married. So we don't want to completely throw dating apps out, you know, in the trash though.

05:41

That is most of the time where they, they do belong. But it's definitely hard because even the women in church, if they don't like want to date guys, sometimes they'll, you know, they'll say things like,

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I might just be called the singleness or I want to be a, this type of person. I'm not interested in guys right now.

05:59

So all of that to say, it's, it's hard to date nowadays. I don't want to underestimate it.

06:04

And I would say that my situation was very much easy mode. I didn't have to like cold approach her, like out of nowhere to do it.

06:12

I just, you know, her brother literally just texted me and because of that connection I had with him, it worked out.

06:18

So I guess one piece of advice I'd give you, any single men that are my, I'm 24, any single men my age, find a good, find a good bro and just, you can be a goober, you can troll around, you know, you can have fun with each other.

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You can make all your, all the jokes that you make. But be more, be a little more well -behaved than all your other peers.

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And they'll be like, yeah, I guess if he has a sister and she's a bit prettier, you know, he may, he may try to set you up.

06:47

So you know, I'm, I'm sure we can get a more of it, but that sort of is what I have to, what I have to say is it's, it is rough out there.

06:54

I got, I got very lucky. Well, not lucky. I was blessed with how it happened to me, but keep your head up.

07:01

Don't, don't fully black pill. You know, I don't want to say that it's just the easiest thing in the world. Oh, just go up to a girl and like do this or that.

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Cause like, you know, there are social circles out there and it is hard, but at the same time, like don't fully black pill.

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There are good women out there that, you know, aren't, you can find one, like it will just be patient, be in prayer about it.

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And if you don't find one immediately, like, you know, just be blessed with the situation you have, look at it as this is a time for me to move forward, to continue to better myself through the power of God's grace and things like that.

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To do that also in the natural realm, like working out and like just staying locked in with a lot of that stuff, because there is a sense in which like taking on a wife, it's not like a downside on you.

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It doesn't, it's not a negative for you, but there are certain things that you might not be able to do that you did before.

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So in the meantime, while you don't have a wife, do those things. And then by the time you were able to find a woman, you're better off.

08:03

And so that's what I noticed is that when I went through like a period of singleness before I met my now wife, I was locked in with a lot of things.

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And I'm glad that I was because it prepared me for this woman. And so again, like I said, there's a lot more to say.

08:17

I could yap for a little bit, but I'll open the floor to you, John, in case you have any questions or comments on my tirade that I just went on.

08:25

I think it was a, it was a very good, I agreed with everything you said. I just think I want to hear about your wedding. So my wedding, no, no, no.

08:32

Like not the details. And like, I didn't mean like the crafts and the, I wasn't involved with any of that either. More like, did you go on a honeymoon?

08:42

Like how is life different now? Oh, personal stuff. Yeah, personal. Yeah. A little bit.

08:48

You don't have to be like super private. No, no. Okay. I, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was a lovely wedding.

08:53

We got married at my home PCA church in Tampa. I have this like a dual membership thing basically, where my primary church membership is at my home church in Tampa.

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And then I have like a corresponding membership at the PCA church here in Orlando. The only thing that I can't do at that PCA church in Orlando is like vote basically and stuff.

09:15

I think that's what it is. I'll have to look at the book of church order again on that, all that entails. But we got married at my home church in Tampa.

09:21

We had a nice little reception at this beautiful place called the Davis Islands Garden Club. We then the next morning,

09:30

I do feel a bit bad about this because I missed church, bro. I was not a good Sabbatarian that day.

09:36

But we went on a cruise to the Bahamas. The cruise line was

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MSC. It was a nice little European cruise line. I was not subject to a carnival cruise, which

09:48

I've been on about two of those as a kid. Those were not the most fun. But you know what? They have banned

09:54

Bluetooth speakers. So maybe they're a little better now. But yeah, Bahamas was beautiful.

10:00

Cruise food did not make my tummy feel well, but we had a good time overall. And now we're all settled into our apartment now.

10:09

Everything is good. We moved everything in and got all that sorted before. So I didn't just come back and have to manage chaos.

10:15

But yeah, so now we're here. That's why I'm filming in the kitchen with all the fun crunchy girl sourdough bread and stuff behind me.

10:24

So yeah, my wife is very crunchy. She's all about sourdough and no seed oils and stuff like that.

10:31

So yeah. Well, it sounds like you had a good time. Yeah. Yeah. A few days and then you immediately back into the grind as soon as you get home.

10:38

It sounds like. Oh yeah. Working hard. No. Yeah. Work gave me a lot of hours, which, you know,

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I'm thankful for, but with like my job that I do or whatever, a lot of evening work. So I'm like, oh, that's not fun.

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But you know, we're powering through. And you know what? Like my classes I had, I didn't have class the week

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I got back. So that was nice. You know, a little, little extra break there. So yeah. Very cool.

11:01

Well, I think the holidays are going to be extra special this year for you and Alyssa because you're going to be together as your own unit.

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I remember that being difficult, but also a blessing because you're like, you have two families now, right?

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Your obligations were to one family. And now you have to figure out whose house are we going to for Thanksgiving and we split the time or what do we do?

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And you start realizing, oh, we're our own family. Even without kids, we, the two of us.

11:29

So anyway, no, congratulations. Big congrats. Thank you. I appreciate it. Really happy for you.

11:34

The group chats are all very happy. They don't hear Matthew complaining about being single anymore. I'm just kidding.

11:40

That is true. I was, uh, oh, I was down bad at one point. Well, I think everyone, like even

11:47

I was thinking about today, cause now that, um, you know, I guess I stepped on a hornet's nest. I have, uh, all kinds of people upset at me, but I also have people that are really grateful.

11:56

I've had several really encouraging messages from people that said I needed encouragement to go out and take some initiative because I was getting depressed and I'm like, well, how old are you?

12:05

And you find out like, oh, I'm like 25 or something. Right. And, um, I don't know. Uh, I remember when

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I was like 22 and I thought like, oh, it's, it's over. Like I can't find anyone that it's.

12:17

And I, I remember being in a blue state, right. I was in New York at the time. I also had lived in California a little bit and I, a lot of the things people describe

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I did experience, even though this is like 10 to 15 years ago, I think, uh, being in a blue state makes it like we're farther ahead or however you want to, we're not ahead in any like, you know, metric that's good.

12:39

It's just, we're farther ahead in degeneracy and so forth. And uh, yeah, like New York, I was like, man, it seems like everyone has a feminist tinge to them.

12:49

Uh, I, I had a few times that, uh, I had a number of girls upset at me because you know how it works, right?

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You, one girl, if you, if you offend one girl and she talks to her friends, like you've now alienated the group that's happened to me a few times and I'll tell you one story.

13:07

This is probably the most, this is the funniest story. Okay. So I was in California, right? Which is tremendously blue. So it is very, uh, it's different than being in Nebraska or Oklahoma or Alabama and dating,

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I think. And so it's probably more close, closer to what the conditions are like almost everywhere now.

13:24

But this was like 15 years ago or more. And there was this girl and, um, I thought she was kind of pretty.

13:30

And I walked up to her and, uh, she, she had been raised in Germany. And what do you think the first thing

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I asked her was when I heard that she was from Germany? Which side? How about them

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Nazis? I was like, I don't, I mean, it just, it naturally,

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I like history and stuff. And I'm like, Oh man, what do they, uh, what do they teach in the schools about the Nazis? Like that was kind of an embarrassing episode, huh?

13:57

Or I mean, now, now, now that Hitler's being revitalized by some groups, you know, maybe they think that's not embarrassing, but at the time, right.

14:05

This was like, especially like, why would you bring that up, John? And, uh, she just looked at me like, that was my opening line, um, guys,

14:15

Hitler is not the opening line. I just want to let you know, don't, just don't, don't do it.

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So she, she just looks at me like she didn't know what to say. And she, she kind of, she's trying to get out of the conversation.

14:29

I'm pretty sure. And, and that, and I realized like, Oh no, what did you do, John? And then

14:35

I'm trying to explain why I asked the question. That's worse guys. Don't explain your, like you step in it.

14:40

Don't try to explain. If you ask about Hitler, just keep, just keep asking, you know, you just keep asking, right?

14:45

You're like, okay, well, like we'll talk about Goebbels then. Like what do you want to talk about? Rommel? We can talk about Rommel. So, uh, anyway, she, uh, exited the conversation.

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I found out six months later from one of my friends who, cause I, I couldn't figure it out.

15:00

I was in this college career group and I'm like, man, I can't seem to get any of the girls to talk to me and I've never had this problem, right?

15:07

This is, I've, there's always been pretty easy for me. What's going on here? And so my friend comes up to me, he's like, dude, um,

15:13

I just found out all the girls have been upset at you for a while. Why would he's like, well, you kind of did the

15:20

Hitler thing with, uh, so I was like, I had, by that time

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I had almost forgotten about it and I was like, Oh no. It was like, so she went and talked to everyone. So I guess that,

15:31

I don't know how the mechanics works, but that's what I'm assuming happened is she told her girlfriends like that guy over there, man, that was offensive.

15:37

He thinks just cause I'm German, like I know all about Hitler and well, you know, if you're

15:44

American, you might know something about Washington or it's kind of like, you know, and something that recent,

15:50

I think it's reasonable to assume she'd know about Hitler. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? You're right, Matthew. I was wrong.

15:56

So I think, I think so. I think that was perfectly reasonable. But like, honestly, like, uh, that, that example that you just gave,

16:03

I think that does explain like, I, cause your original dating tweet, I think it was like, uh,

16:09

I was trying to find it earlier before we came on, but you had said the one that went like mega viral. I think it was like the first one where it was just like, find a girl, approach her, ask her out, you know, then repeat or something like that.

16:21

If you reject, you just repeat. Yeah. I think the reason why some people like push back a bit against that was cause they felt like, like this story that you just told, they've probably done something like that.

16:32

And then that happens. Um, you know, and like I told you, like there was an instance where that's happened to me before.

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Um, you know, and so honestly, like the only time I've like, uh, you know, in the past I've ever like cold approach women is if it was like in a setting that was like super different than, um, than like a very familiar place.

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Like I remember when I was working, uh, in construction full time, I was at Lowe's and I saw like this, this girl, like every time

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I was there and I just like, I just went up and I'm like, Hey, you want to grab coffee sometime? And then she's like, I have a boyfriend.

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And I'm just like, okay, whatever. But I honestly, like, I was just glad I did it cause I was like, oh, now I can say

17:09

I cold approached a woman or something. Oh, I've had that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you know,

17:14

I don't see like, uh, sometimes I see my personalities, I can do, I'll do stuff like that.

17:20

And I generally just like, don't care. I'm cause I'm like, oh, womp, womp. If a girl's like off put by that, then

17:25

I've just weeded them out. But like, I can't understand if it's a more tight knit circle and maybe like a bit like, so yeah.

17:32

Well, I mean, I've twice, this is also funny kind of like I've twice had girls where I walked up to, well,

17:38

I didn't walk. So, so actually that tweet, that was one of the things it's, it's Twitter, right? I can't put like a re I can't write a book necessarily.

17:45

So I assume you already, you like the girl and you know something about the girls because you like her.

17:51

Like you're, I don't advocate a cold approach where out of nowhere, I mean, some people, the, they think the

17:57

Lord wants them to do it. Okay. But I think for most people, that's not going to be the case. Like you gradually get to know someone, but then at some point you have to talk to them.

18:05

I don't care how you do it. You have to break the ice. That's all I was trying to say is like, Hey, if you break the ice at some point, don't just sit on the sideline.

18:13

But anyway, there was these two times, uh, it's twice this happened to me where there was a girl who

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I kind of started to get interested in and I started spending time with, like I, uh, would give her rides.

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I started hanging out in group settings and I was right at the precipice of doing what

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I said in the tweet, like asking her to go on a date with me. And it was, it was like carbon copy, both of these experiences.

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And I find out before, right before I'm going to ask, she'll show up at a group setting with not her boyfriend, her fiance, who

18:47

I had never heard about. And you've been giving her rides. Well, well, I had, you know, going to like ministry events and stuff.

18:55

Yeah. And I know she never mentioned, right. It was, I was only like a month in, in both of these situations.

19:01

Uh, you were like texting her. Uh, no, no, I hadn't. Well, today you probably would be back then.

19:09

I don't know that it was a different little different. Uh, you, you could start texting, but we didn't even have a smartphone. Well, did

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I have a, I don't think I had a smartphone. Um, it was more just in person. I would see her, uh, at ministry related things.

19:22

But I, I find out in both, in two situations, it was like carbon copy.

19:28

And I was like, I remember after that happened two times, it was almost in a row. I was like, you know,

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I don't know, like, I don't know what's going on. I must be doing something wrong. So I'm just saying that to, to sort of relate and say, look,

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I understand there are situations that scar you and you, you just don't feel like, okay.

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I, what's the point? Like I invest all this time and then son of a gun, like she didn't even tell me.

19:53

Maybe she was afraid to tell you, maybe, you know, she didn't want to let you down, who knows? But I think, uh,

19:58

I think the takeaway is you just, you don't give up hope. That's really my main thing. You, you just don't give up hope you keep going.

20:05

Right. And it's like, um, uh, it's, it's like, what's the old, you probably wouldn't know if there's this, uh,

20:13

Chris LeDoux song, he's a country singer from years ago, but like, you know, you, you get back up when you're thrown down, like in a rodeo, like, okay, one bull bucks you, you get, get back up, get on another one and don't stop, uh, because eventually if you do talk to enough girls, you will find someone

20:31

Lord willing that you're compatible with and that it works out. And I have a wife, you have a wife and it's a wonderful thing.

20:37

So just don't take yourself out of the, the quote unquote dating game or courtship game, whatever.

20:44

I don't know where, where if you're at a church that does that do that. But yeah, that's kind of my thing.

20:49

And yeah, we didn't really, we didn't really court. We just, uh, well, I mean, like I asked her dad if I could date her like over the phone, but I mean, it wasn't like a, he, he wasn't in town for me to like him to be present in like all the rooms and all that while we were, while we'd go out or something.

21:05

But yeah. Well, I mean, you're, you're in the world of vehicles too.

21:10

I mean, how you can't, unless you have a chaperone everywhere you go and then it's, things aren't natural. I mean, there used to be, you'd have like a sitting room or a parlor where you could court.

21:21

Yeah. And there wasn't, you could be alone with the person, but there was like a hallway. So there was enough of like,

21:26

Oh, anyone can walk in at any minute. And, um, I don't know, it'd be cool to bring back, but anyway.

21:33

Yeah. So I don't know. You have anything else you want to add? Any, uh, zoomer wisdom on the conditions out there and, uh, what to do or not to do before we talk about Bodie?

21:42

Uh, sure. I'll, I'll see if I can cook up something. Zoomer, zoomer wisdom, uh, for all the, all the, um, hopeless incels whom

21:51

I love dearly and count as my brothers. Guys, it's going to be okay. I promise. Um, it's bleak, it looks tough, but you know,

22:00

I, and like, you know, at the end of the day, like sometimes it is like hard to say, and a lot of this stuff does just sound like,

22:06

Oh, like boomer isms or whatever, but at the end of the day, like you just to fall into despair is never going to help your case instead, literally just have like, have like fairytale optimism, even if it seems hopeless, just have optimism nonetheless, because that impacts how you carry yourself and how you carry yourself is like read by other people and things like that.

22:31

And so like, you will make it like, do all the self -improvement things, do all the, you know, do all the isms and things like that, but it will be fine.

22:40

Just talk to people, get, get to know other people, have connections, do those things. Like, I would say like the most

22:46

I've gotten by in my life has been because I've made connections and guess what? The way that I got married was through a connection.

22:53

Cause one of my really good friends who I met on Twitter, who I then met in person, who I then hung out with a lot throughout the years, who then was like,

23:00

Hey Matt, come to central Florida for RTS Orlando, who was then friends with this one guy who I became friends with.

23:05

Then months later was like, Hey, my sister is interested in you. So make connections. You got it.

23:11

Don't isolate yourself. Like have, have pointless optimism that even if it doesn't seem like it's going to pan out, it's harder than it says, like than it sounds, but a lot of that can come about through just having a good group of guys and, you know, just talking to people.

23:27

So it's hard. It might sound like a boomerism or whatever, but it really is that simple.

23:33

And just like I said to like find guys that are your age as well. And just talk to them.

23:40

Cause you don't want to like do this alone, be it like in person, which is preferred or in the group chats, just talk to people.

23:47

Um, and that may help you keep your head on straight. So that's all I have to say about that. I think that's great. I, that's,

23:53

I actually just saw this too with my own wife. Like it was a connection too, actually. I didn't think of that at first, but we, we did meet in person.

24:03

Um, not, it wasn't someone trying to hook us up. It was just, it was an event that someone invited me to and yeah, it was mutual friends that I really, that I met her through, but that was after I was on,

24:14

I did the online dating thing for three months. I didn't like it. I got off at that. I didn't like it either. Uh, and then

24:22

I was moving, actually, I was moving to a lot of people don't know this, but the, one of the reasons I went to Southeastern Baptist theological seminary, and it was a major reason for me was to get out of New York and I had been in California before to get out of California, to be in more of a traditional area where I thought

24:36

I could find, um, a girl who was more traditional minded and had pretty good theology.

24:41

And maybe we would line up with our personalities and the rest. And it was on my way out that I met my wife

24:48

Danielle. And I even remember telling one of her friends who said like, you guys seem like you're having fun together.

24:54

You'd be good together. Cause our humor was for similar. I said, I can't, I can't be with her. I said, because I am moving to North Carolina.

25:01

I am not doing this on my way out. Sure enough. You know that we, a long distance relationship starts as I'm in seminary in North Carolina and I'm like, man.

25:11

So, uh, yeah, it can become, it can come from unexpected places too. You don't know what lies ahead.

25:18

And that is the providence of God. That's what that. So, um, good word.

25:24

Uh, congratulations. I do want to talk about Bodie, uh, on this podcast.

25:30

We do have some comments coming in. Kevin Heinz says that he had a personal relationship with Bodie and that he, he misses him.

25:37

Um, that's sad. I, I, I know a lot of people did. And I think

25:42

Kevin says that, um, I think he, he met my mom died on Friday night, 1995,

25:49

September 1st. Okay. I met my wife two days later in Sunday school. The Lord is good. He is sovereign. We must continue to surrender to him.

25:55

Yeah. Wow. Wow. Talk about meat, meat, tragedy, and then blessing. It's that's life though.

26:02

Um, Dr. Bob, I don't know if he trolling us happy Sabbath, man. I mean, I, it is, it is the seventh day.

26:09

It is Saturday, but you know, I don't think Dr. Bob is wrong covenant, Dr. Bob, wrong covenant.

26:17

So, um, and then there's some comments about dating, but we won't get to that right now. Well, let's switch gears.

26:22

So, uh, Bodie Bockham, there's two articles on the truth script websites. And, um, both of them are written by Harris's and one of them's by my brother.

26:32

One of them's by me. So it's, I've been good. The impact of Bodie Bockham on my life.

26:38

And then. Uh, I just wrote this morning, the last adult in the room reflections on Bodie Bockham. Uh, I do need a ride, everyone.

26:44

You can scroll down to the bottom. If you want to support true script, it is a five one C three, or if you want to publish with us, those tabs are at the bottom, but these are the articles that we're going to be discussing and maybe

26:54

I'll just start it off this way. Uh, Matthew, were you on the honeymoon? Where were you when you heard about Bodie's death?

27:01

No, I was, uh, not on the honeymoon at the, uh, it was immediately after the honeymoon.

27:06

I technically was still on, but we'd gotten back, um, from our little cruise and I was, uh, hanging out with my, my wife and her family.

27:15

Um, so I was with her parents, uh, one of her aunts and uncles, um, and her brother.

27:21

Uh, wow. He's my brother -in -law now. I love that guy. I'm actually going to get sushi with him when we're done with this. Um, side note, but, uh, he was, uh, we were all sitting at this table.

27:31

We were smoking cigars and drinking wine. And then I found out about it cause

27:36

I'm in a group chat with him. And, uh, you guys know him on Twitter as Christian Mario, the heterodox, uh,

27:43

Eastern, uh, person, uh, who is like my best friend, but, um, I disagree with him on that, uh, everyone knows that.

27:51

But, um, he actually texted our group chat with like the RIP thing and he's just like, dude, this is crazy.

27:56

This is so sad rip. And my, my friend, David is a very goofy person in general.

28:04

And my brother -in -law, Eddie thought he was kidding. And he's just like, dude, Dave's joking. Right. And we're like, no way.

28:10

So I just immediately went to founders and it's sad because my mother -in -law is a really like diehard

28:16

Vodie Bauckham fan. And so we read about it and we read it out loud and she had to go in the other room, uh, cause she was like that hit by it.

28:24

So it was really sad because it's especially, you know, it's like a little bit after Charlie Kirk and then like, uh, and I know you mentioned this in your article,

28:33

John, but then like also John MacArthur a little bit ago. Um, it's just, it's sad to like have all of that just like compound.

28:41

And when I was thinking about it too, sort of reminds me of like, imagine how like the early church felt, uh, seeing all these apostles die, um, and be killed for their faith.

28:53

Um, it must've just been like the most discouraging thing in the world, uh, to see like these monumental figures just, just go.

29:03

Um, and of course I would even say like, you know, that their pain might not compare to, you know, our pain, because we have this understanding of like, these people are, you know, fallible men, but like, you know, nevertheless, they are, you know, they're, they're very important, valuable people.

29:18

Like all of them have like shaped many of us throughout the year. So it was just, it was really, really heartbreaking, um, to see.

29:25

But yeah, we were, uh, I was hanging out with her family when we had all found out. Did you listen to Vodie Bauckham yourself?

29:33

Or had you been impacted by his ministry? Oh yeah, definitely. When I was a freshman in college,

29:38

I went to a, you know, a public, public college. I, in between like classes and stuff,

29:44

I'd listen to Vodie Bauckham sermons to keep my sanity. Um, so I, I remember

29:49

I, I listened to Vodie a lot when I was 18, I would, uh, listen to his sermons and just take notes on stuff.

29:56

Um, uh, and Ligonier 2023, I got to like get a picture with him and meet him. And like, it was like a line for a picture.

30:03

I didn't like have a long conversation with him. Like I didn't go, Oh, I knew Vodie. It literally, I just shook his hand, thanked him for what he did and got a picture with him.

30:10

But you know, he, he's a, he's, he's a, he was just a wonderful, wonderful guy.

30:15

And I, I'm very thankful for his ministry and for just him being bold.

30:21

Because I think a lot of the reason that people really appreciate Vodie is that he spoke with clarity.

30:26

And then not only did he speak with clarity, but he was just, he was bold. You saw him and you knew that was like a masculine man.

30:33

And like, he showed that and like what he did as well, like with how boldly he proclaimed things with the fact that this guy went to Zambia to start a school and like did all this stuff, came back to Florida to start like a new seminary.

30:46

And I have a good friend of mine, Dr. Christopher Cleveland. He's at that seminary to teach

30:51

Greek there. I know he was really hit hard with the passing of Vodie Bockham, but yeah.

30:59

And he did, he did martial arts, man. So he could take you down. He was a big guy. I remember

31:04

Brandon Corley on Twitter one time said something like, is there any theologian throughout history who could have wrestled down Vodie Bockham?

31:11

I didn't think so. So, yeah, you know, it was just, it was really sad to hear, especially just like right after Charlie Kirk too, you know, just compounds.

31:19

Yeah. He's a big guy. Yeah. I know you think you look at him on the screen, you're like, oh, he's, he's, he's a big guy.

31:25

And then you actually meet him in person. You're like, he's actually bigger than you think. His muscles, his height, his broad shoulders, all of that.

31:34

So I think that definitely contributed to his message. It just was more forceful because of it.

31:40

Yeah. But I was at the men's retreat, which, uh, it was literally, we had just started.

31:48

We were in the middle of dinner the first night. It was just Thursday night and I was the first one presenting.

31:54

So I was going to speak in about half an hour. And my brother's just like, John, I'm so sorry. And I was freaking,

32:00

I was like, what? And I look at my phone and it's my, uh, he goes, just look at your phone.

32:05

And it's, it's my buddy, Tommy Kelly. And he says, John, I'm so sorry. And I'm, I'm thinking my wife has died.

32:11

Like, it's just, she, her grandmother's funeral was the week before Charlie Kirk's assassination was the week before that we were just like,

32:19

I was like, everyone's dying, everyone's just dying. And, uh, then I saw, oh, it's

32:24

Bodie. And that, and I was like shocked. So I was sort of, sort of slightly relieved. It wasn't my wife in a, in that moment, just cause

32:32

I was like, I was bracing myself for the worst. And, uh, and then

32:38

I saw Bodie Bauckham and I was just like, I, it threw me for a loop. I wasn't expecting it.

32:44

It was one of the last things on my mind. Cause I had talked to him in August and he said that I asked him about his health.

32:51

Actually, we talked about that and he said he felt never better. His heart was, was great.

32:57

Uh, that the issues he had were in the past. And so he, he just was doing so well.

33:03

And I thought, well, good, because John MacArthur just passed. And I think the mantle, if there is a mantle, right.

33:10

If there's someone who can bind together the evangelical world and, uh, really speak true things, it would be

33:17

Bodie Bauckham and to have him gone is like, I, there really is no replacement.

33:22

And, um, anyway, so I write about this a little bit in the piece. But I did have a personal relationship with him.

33:31

I wouldn't say we were super close, but we would talk every once in a while. I had only met him in person once I'd been at conferences where he spoke a few times, but I'd only met him in person once.

33:43

And we did have a private, um, chat, just me and him.

33:48

And he wanted to talk about Southeastern. This was in January, 2019. And so, uh, we did that.

33:54

And I, I just still remember calling up to his room at the hotel. So he gave me a, he said, just call me, call, call me up to my, so I, you know, you,

34:02

I don't know if you've ever done this because he didn't give me his cell phone number right away. I got that later. So, you know, he doesn't know me yet, but he wants to talk to me.

34:10

So he, so I have to go to the front desk and he gave me like,

34:15

I think the room number, and I was just like, I need to call this room number. And so I, I call and I get his wife on the phone and, uh,

34:25

I just, I'm very respectful. I said, is, is doctor or pastor? I forget what I said. I think Dr. Dr. Brody Bakken.

34:30

Is he there? And I, I hear his wife go

34:36

Bodie. And, uh, you know, I, I hear kind of, you know, in the distance, like what, what, what's going on?

34:43

And it's, it's a Bodie and it comes to the phone. I just remember thinking like, you know, Bodie's this big, tough, strong man.

34:49

And I was like, wow. He, he married a woman who, uh, was able to kind of stand with him there.

34:57

And, and he, uh, he comes to the phone. He's like, I think he had forgotten that he wanted to talk to me.

35:03

So who is this? And he said, I'll be right down. So it comes down in like a t -shirt and, and like jeans or sweat.

35:10

I think it was sweat pants. And, um, anyway, he's just a normal guy. Like he didn't have to put on a collared shirt or anything.

35:16

He just literally came down. He was going right back up, but we talked for like 20 minutes and that started a relationship where, uh, he,

35:25

I might've been, then he gave me his number. I'm not sure. Somehow I got it the next year or so, but he, he would just call me randomly and ask me questions.

35:34

He, he listened to the podcast, Matthew. He's probably heard you many times to be quite honest. Yeah, I do.

35:41

I do because he was a very faithful listener to the podcast. When I talked to him in August, I even started telling him about some things.

35:48

He goes, he goes, I already know you talked about it on your podcast. And I was like, what?

35:54

I would always forget that he listened. Um, but no, he, there were certain podcasts. He would have his sons listen to, he'd tell me, uh, like the one right after,

36:03

I think it was Steve Lawson. There was a podcast I put out there and he thanked me for it. He said,

36:08

I'm gonna have my sons listen to this because it's easy to blackmail and think it's all fake. Like all these creatures are just fake.

36:15

And he's like, we need a way to get through this to sort of separate. No, there is real, authentic, spiritual godliness.

36:22

It exists. Steve Lawson didn't have that. And here's what he did have and why it fooled people.

36:27

But I, I don't know. I just took that. I don't, I would forget when he told me, cause

36:33

I just couldn't believe it. But he was a very faithful listener to the podcast, which, um, always, it did mean something to me.

36:41

Yeah. And it still does. Uh, and I don't know what the thing I think that stood out the most, and this is what

36:46

I emphasized in the article is he was just a very normal guy.

36:53

He did not seem to even notice. Maybe he knew it and just wasn't letting on, but he didn't seem to really take into account how popular he was.

37:00

He was his own industry unto himself. If he wanted to have the biggest platform, he could have had it. And he chose to be in Zambia and he chose to go to this little school in Southwest Florida to train pastors.

37:12

I don't know if you know this, but before that he was thinking through whether he wanted to be the president of Grove city college or go to be at founders.

37:19

That was his main option. He had narrowed it down to those two. And I'm thinking like Grove city college, that's much more prestigious, but he chose to be a founders.

37:31

And I know that he has been offered political jobs. Um, I think the blaze offered him a political commentator job.

37:38

He, he always said no. And I always respected that about him. He was not after the limelight.

37:45

He, he didn't care about, he just let God grow whatever platform under him. He was going to go say true things. And if it was popular, it was popular.

37:52

If it wasn't, it wasn't. And frankly, we need more guys like that who just do not care what men think.

37:58

They're just going to stand for what God says. Um, he's very proud of his kids.

38:04

He was big advocate of adoption. Even with me, we talked about that subject. Um, I know one of his, his sons was going into the military probably is now either has been or will be very soon, um, going into training and that's gotta be so tough with your dad, not around to, cause you don't have an option when you're in the military, you can't just defer that.

38:28

So anyway, those are just some thoughts of that. I, that I have normal guy didn't seek the platform.

38:36

Uh, excellent communicator, good preacher, bold, uh, didn't, did not fear man.

38:42

I think that's like the main thing I'd say about him. He did not fear man. And, uh, there's a lot, I felt like I could learn from him, you know, but I think,

38:50

I think he listened to a lot more of what I had to say, which I don't know. Um, it's still, it's still an odd thing to me.

38:56

Uh, but I think even that shows you though, that he was such, he didn't care.

39:02

If it was a small platforms or a, not a extremely popular voice.

39:07

Cause there are, once you get into those upper echelons, there are particular podcasts and, uh, people, personalities you're supposed to kind of consume.

39:17

And it, the fact that he was listening to my stuff that also told me that he was.

39:23

He just wanted what was practical and good for his own life. What he liked, not necessarily what he was expected to like, which

39:31

I think is pretty cool. Um, and, uh, I don't know, I could, I could go on and on, you know, he, he bucked big

39:37

Eva there, there, that's another one, right? He had the wind at his back. He could have spoken at all the big conferences.

39:44

Uh, he certainly the gospel coalition used to like him and he decided to just give all that up and he didn't mind being with the rebels a little bit, you know, um, if the rebels were in the right.

39:59

So, you know, there, there's so much more I could just go on and on, but I feel like I'm monopolizing a little. So I just want to tell everyone, put your comments in things you remember about Bodhi questions you might have.

40:09

Uh, we'll get to them as the program unfolds. We still got about 20 minutes. Uh, anything there you want to talk about Matthew?

40:16

Something that I did think of is that, um, if y 'all haven't already, uh, Bodhi's family does have a

40:22

Gibson go, um, to raise, to raise money for the family. I just sent it to the private chat,

40:27

John. So yeah. Um, but they do have that just to support them because they will definitely need something like that.

40:35

But, um, yeah, it just, his loss is pretty horrible. And I would say like, one of like the big things is like, this kind of goes back to the comment

40:43

I made about boldness, but he has like the personality of somebody that you want to follow.

40:49

Like, so there are some people that are natural leaders, some people that are more natural followers.

40:56

And then there's the kind of person that even the leaders go, we need to look to this guy. And I would say that Bodhi fell into like that ladder category where he had not only the charisma, but like the passion and boldness for truth.

41:09

Um, and it just like, you know, you can't just find someone like that. And the reason that I say that about Bodhi is because you kind of brought up the big

41:15

Eva thing, that sort of personality that Bodhi had. Um, no person in like big

41:23

Eva, like emulates that, uh, a lot of these guys are, they're, they're a bit more milquetoast, they kind of like cut in between the line, um, in order to, if they do have any passion in what they say is because they're almost sounding a bit effeminate in the way that they say it and like trying to pluck at your emotional heartstrings, but he wasn't like that, but he didn't pluck at your emotional heartstrings unless he was convicting you, making you feel bad about sin.

41:47

Um, you know, like he wasn't doing all like the, the mannerisms and like the, you know, dressing in the skinny jeans kinds of stuff.

41:55

Like he was, he was bold. He was good. And you can't really, uh, it's hard to, to replace that.

42:02

And, you know, it kind of like makes you think also of like, who can replace like, you know, someone like Charlie Kirk or other people that have like some like a degree of popularity among certain crowds, yada, yada, yada.

42:12

Sure. But did they have the organizational skills of Charlie Kirk? Did they have the network? Did they have the outreach? It's like all these people that we lose.

42:19

It's just so many of them are, it's like hard to truly like replace that kind of person.

42:26

Um, and what I sort of think of is like with the various types of people that we do lose. It reminds me of like the versatility in the body of Christ that, and the work of regeneration and in sanctification, uh, you as a person, you know, you think of it, grace does not destroy nature, but it perfects it when you are inhabited by the spirit of God, it's not like you are, everything is entirely different.

42:51

Those imperfections that you have are slowly being furnished away. And those things about you that are unique and good are now being perfected in such a manner such that you are doing your natural, your natural strengths are being super added onto with grace so that you can be good so that you can be bold for the kingdom.

43:10

And you have these particular gifts that are being perfected by the grace of God. And so that's why we can say it's hard to lose people like this because they had particular gifts given to them from God that were perfected by grace that are now gone and we don't have it right now.

43:25

And so it's sad and it's heartbreaking. Um, but you know, with, with the sadness that you may feel again, like I said earlier in the cast, like think of how the early church felt losing this particular apostle or this particular person.

43:38

Sure. We'll do that. May those people have gone to churches where Paul or Peter or whatever picked a worthy successor to their ministry.

43:46

Yeah, absolutely. But was there this guarantee that he would be just like Peter or Paul? No. Was there this guarantee that he would have like the same, uh, you know, care, you know, all these other things like there wasn't, but nevertheless, the church of God persisted and she was pure and undefiled and now we are where we are today.

44:08

Um, Christianity is still here. We have not died out. And so likewise, us losing us having recently deceased saints will not, uh, stop what is coming.

44:20

Yeah, I, it's interesting. So, so you, there's an optimism you have about this where, um,

44:26

God's going to, in his providence, he's not going to completely replace, but his kingdom is going to move forward.

44:32

Even if that person we mourn and they leave a hole. Um, there were two interpretations immediately at the men's retreat.

44:39

When this came up, one was, and this was more Andrew Rappaport. He said, this is a

44:46

God kind of kicking things back to the local level. He's, he's rebuking celebrity

44:52

Christianity. And, um, I don't think he meant that, you know, cause that sounds kind of insensitive.

44:58

I don't think he meant that Voti, Voti himself personally was, uh, being judged or anything like that.

45:04

I think he was just saying that the conditions now are, you don't really have any or hardly any, the field is very narrow in the reformed evangelical world for this big celebrity types there.

45:15

They don't exist anymore as much. And so this is going to force people to get local and trust their own pastors.

45:21

And then another interpretation was actually, this is God's judgment on America that, uh, and I wasn't around for this.

45:30

I mean, I guess I was alive, I wasn't paying attention, but I guess James Montgomery voice died in 2000. And this was interpreted as a judgment on America by John MacArthur.

45:39

That's what I was told. And that this is like that, but only it's more prevalent because it's not just, you know, one voice, it's a whole bunch of voices that have either been disqualified because of scandal or they've died.

45:53

They're gone. And it's, it's like stripping a leadership class all at once.

45:59

Uh, and, and, and so this is, um, this creates a vacuum and it leaves room for bad actors.

46:06

It leaves room for grifters for the kind of people we don't want in these positions. Uh, right.

46:11

They, they can easily, uh, rise to, uh, and judge, and this would be a judgment on America, Americans are going to be deceived.

46:19

So, so these were the two interpretations that I heard and I, they could both,

46:24

I suppose be true because they're not necessarily diametrically opposed, but. Um, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that because my heart says

46:35

I do feel a weight, I do feel a judgment. I do feel that even with Charlie Kirk's funeral and all the positive things about that,

46:45

I still, there, there is this sense I have of like something doesn't quite feel right and I can't put my finger on it, but if we're going to have any restoration, it's going to have to have good theological richness, orthodox.

46:58

It's not just enough. I think to have, although I want Christian culture, I want that.

47:03

I truly do. I would support that, but we do need to have the prophetic voice of preachers willing to say the hard things and not care about what people think.

47:15

And, and I do feel like that those people on those levels are diminishing.

47:21

So I sent, I feel this, but I can't like, I'm not going to show you chapter and verse in the Bible and I'm not,

47:26

I can't point to a silver bullet that says we're under judgment. Maybe it's too close to tell that, but I do feel this weight.

47:34

I don't know if you feel that. No, I mean, I definitely think that, um, the events can be multifaceted and the way in which they occur.

47:44

And like, part of it can be judgment. Part of it can be another thing, et cetera, et cetera. And I do agree that there, there's like a chance, um, that it could be an act of judgment by God, um, on us.

47:57

Uh, I'm not entirely sure about the celebrity culture one because, uh, or like the celebrity pastor thing, because at the end of the day, like the celebrity pastors and things like that have always, uh, existed, like the most of the theologians on your bookshelves were at one time or the other celebrity pastors, especially

48:17

Charles Spurgeon. Um, so it's hard to just like, uh, Get totally get rid of that.

48:22

Um, at the end of the day, you should defer first and foremost to the local church. And the reason for that is not necessarily because what he's going to be saying is more sound, not necessarily because he may have more charisma, et cetera, et cetera, but primarily for the purpose that in the local church, there is a sort of interaction that you can have with the pastor where he can actually personally shepherd you in accordance with your circumstances.

48:45

Somebody who's more of like the celebrity pastor kind of thing. He can give good messages, exposes the word, give encouragement.

48:51

You can go to him for a certain subject that you're looking into and it's good. And it's right. And there's nothing wrong with that. But what the local church pastor does is he can actually pour into you on a personal level.

49:00

And so that's what I would say about like local and celebrity pastors is that I don't think I'm as opposed to like celebrity pastors in principle.

49:10

Um, I think that it's only, it primarily becomes problematic when you use that to, uh, not just like when you use it to replace, uh, any obligation to go to the local church because to withhold oneself from going to a local congregation, becoming a member, one is actually living in sin by, uh, not doing that, which the scriptures command.

49:32

Um, you're not a lone Island. You, when you are regenerated, um, you are actually like incorporated and engrafted into this mystical body of Christ and to be a, to be a part of the whole implies that the part should be with the other parts that can, that are composite of the whole.

49:48

Um, so it's kind of a big deal to actually join yourself to the local church and not use like a celebrity to supplement that, uh, or to replace that to say it better.

49:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I also feel that I think I'm very in tune with what you're saying.

50:04

I was, I'm a little skeptical of that too. I, um, the, the judgment thing is what

50:10

I keep mulling over more and more. Like, okay, now the Lord could raise up. So, I mean, there are good, faithful pastors out there that don't have that kind of a platform and the

50:19

Lord can certainly raise them up. He can do whatever he wants. That's the thing. Um, but if you start seeing leaders who don't have the same character that are in more immature than I think that you, you can safely say, and we're going to only know this in hindsight, that there was, uh, maybe some kind of, uh, a judgment there.

50:38

Um, I think, uh, the reason I wanted to even say in this video and my article is titled this, the last adult in the room is because Vodi, I think behave very maturely.

50:49

He, whenever we talked, he did not use course justing. There wasn't, he didn't use profanity.

50:55

He did. He was just very, uh, kind of old school with his, and I'm sure he wasn't raised that way.

51:01

That's the thing. I don't, the way he was raised, he talks about this. I mean, he was raised in pretty dysfunctional environment, but he had a lot of decorum and he, you could tell he cared about you.

51:13

Uh, he wasn't distracted. He wasn't using you. He wasn't the kind of guy to, uh, try to manipulate.

51:21

He was just very direct, uh, very matter of fact, living in the moment, normal guy.

51:28

It was a breath of fresh air, to be quite honest, because there's very few people like him, especially on that level, it becomes political very quick in those green rooms and, uh, the people operating on that level, oftentimes,

51:42

I don't know for working class guys, you might think it's kind of effeminate, but it becomes like kind of a popularity contest.

51:48

If people are just very aware of how they stack up to others and applause lines become important in the size of your church and the size of your ministry and who knows who, and like all of the drama, all of that stuff,

52:04

Bodhi had none of it. Like, I don't think I ever talked about drama with him, even though he called me to ask me opinions, like,

52:10

Hey, is Alma or solid again? Or what happened? Is he still like, he would ask me, I'm like, why are you asking me?

52:16

Don't you know? But it wasn't ever dramatic. Those conversations were always, they had a point to them.

52:22

It was always like, should I partner with this person? Is it wise? And if it wasn't, or if it was like, we would just go on and start talking about personal things, uh, about our lives.

52:31

How are you doing? How are you doing? It, there wasn't any kind of like, you know, conspiring about this person and being jealous of that person.

52:40

None of it, none of that existed with Bodhi. And I can honestly say that at least from my interactions, uh, that's kind of becoming rare these days, more and more and more.

52:50

And I, I don't know. Um, it feels like someone who had a good vision, he had a proper priority.

52:59

He was an adult, he was stable. That, that person has left the room and he feel, it feels like he's like one of the last ones.

53:08

So that's why it's significant in my mind on a macro level here. But there are a few questions we can get to, unless you have something else,

53:17

Matt, you want to add to that? We can get to, uh, the questions before I ramble and yap on too long.

53:25

Matt says with John McArthur, you kind of knew it was coming. He was older and having health issues.

53:31

Bodhi had serious heart issues that had seemed to have passed. How does founder seminary replace

53:36

Bodhi? I don't know. I don't know if they can. Yeah. I mean, you find someone who's a good teacher or a good president, but there's only one

53:47

Bodhi, so I don't know what to do. Yeah. Matt also said doing what I did.

53:52

I w oh, I guess Matt must've been a sound guy. I wired him with a wireless mic. Like I'd done to many, he was a big guy.

53:58

You know how a person treats people when you're the sound guy, some are nice and others are not.

54:04

Actually, I don't, I'm not a sound guy. So I don't, I mean, is that notorious to sound guys get mistreated? Uh, I think they're viewed as kind of like in the background.

54:15

Right. But, um, so you saying Bodhi didn't treat him that way. And that's a very, very, uh, nice thing to hear.

54:23

Um, we don't have a lot of other comments coming in. I'm wondering if it's cause it's a Saturday afternoon. I just thought of that.

54:28

It's probably the most unpopular time of the week for us to be doing a lot. Probably. But it was the only time I could do with my schedule.

54:35

Well, it was my fault yesterday too, because, um, I thought it would work. And then my wife and I were cleaning the church and I just sort of assumed

54:41

I'm like, well, maybe he could push it back. And so we figured it out, but if people want to pray for Matthew, Matthew, uh,

54:49

Matthew needs some good steady work. Right. And, um, yeah, people could just, uh, pray for that.

54:55

And we, we have been doing Tuesdays at six and I don't, it might be a little all over the place.

55:02

So I just want to prepare people for that with, um, scheduling things. And we're both very busy people right now with school and work and marriage and all the rest.

55:11

So, um, thank you for your graciousness while we've been off this sort of regular schedule, but, um, kind of last call here, right?

55:19

If anyone has any questions or comments, get them in now, because we're going to end the podcast.

55:24

Elijah Finley appreciates the dating advice. So of course, of course,

55:30

Elijah. Um, so yeah, I guess we get, we got five minutes here, Matthew.

55:36

Uh, any, anything else you want to add or else we'll close the show out. Um, I just have like, basically one sentence summary, a non, you will find a wife and Vody Bokum's death will not be in vain.

55:51

That's like a very profound. Yeah. Yeah. There we go. I don't see any other way to end the show.