The Last Adult in the Room: Voddie Baucham

And welcome to the American Churchmen podcast, where we encourage men to take responsibility, love the Lord, lead their family. And I have with me my co-host Matt Pearson. How are you doing,.

Matt? I'm good, John. Feels like we haven't done one of these in a minute. My life has been a bit chaotic as of recent, but I'm happy to be back. Is chaos the way to describe a newlywed? I don't know.

Well, I would not say as bad posts, but leading up to it was definitely kind of crazy. And then my work schedule has just been all over the place. So that's why I say chaotic. That's.

Why. Well, we have to talk about this because the last time I talked to you, you were a single man and that man died. You don't exist anymore. You're now, I mean, you're going to help me understand this a little bit.

Some of the Zoomers say, some of the Zoomer males, I mean, you're basically enslaved now, right? I mean, you just do everything she tells you to do. Am I.

Understanding correctly that's what's going on? Yeah, absolutely. By becoming a fake sell by law, I've signed my life away and I now submit in all things to my matriarch. I do all the house chores while she makes some money so that I can go to seminary.

No. And how long is the house you live in? Oh, it's a very long house. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I saw some of the pictures and you guys,.

You look very happy. It looked like a beautiful wedding. I want you, I'm just not going to talk. I'm gonna let you talk about it. In fact, I'll here, here, let's do this. We'll make Matthew, can I, I don't know how I make you full screen.

I'm going to figure it out here. We're going to make you full screen, but I want to hear about the wedding and just everything that has transpired in your life. Cause these are big things. And I think it's really encouraging for people, especially the last few days, as I've heard people black pill on marriage and there's no good women and all of that.

And, uh, you're a zoomer male, you just got married. And so, uh, yeah. Why don't you talk about that? Maybe talk a little bit about how you even started dating because I feel like to get the whole story, you need to start there.

How did you even meet your wife and go from A to.

B from, from single to married? Yeah, I guess for the, for the sake of the discourse, I can get into some stuff, but being, uh, you know, an actual man and describing a wedding or wedding planning, I'm not going to give you much.

I'll, I'll let you know I was married. Uh, you know, I had a fun time at the wedding. It was good. Yeah. You know, nothing, nothing went wrong or anything. Uh, but that that's about as much as I can get into.

I'm sure that if you, uh, ask her or any of the other women involved, they can probably give you a whole tirade of all the things that happen. But yeah. Um, but in general, I would say like, I do very much, uh, sympathize with, uh, a lot of what my generation is going through.

I saw a statistic, um, the other day, it was actually on Twitter, um, where this guy had like posted about how 16 of men like under like at age 30 or under 30 are married, whereas 25 of women at age 30 or under, uh, are married.

And so there definitely is that gap and it is like very difficult. And I will definitely say that with, with my particular situation, I was a bit blessed because I was friends with her brother for a bit.

Like we weren't like best friends or anything, but we were, we were cool buds. And like one day he just texted me being like, Hey, my sister thinks you're like, you know, like my sister's interested or yada, yada.

And then from there I kinda, you know, played ball, I guess. Um, but I, I definitely, like I said, I sympathize a lot with, uh, this generation because there are like with what is encouraged in the culture, um, there are just like a lot of women that just, that to be quite frank, or they, they sleep around a lot.

They're not interested in relationships. They want to wait a long time till later to settle in. A lot of the girls that you might meet at church can oftentimes be much more reserved. They're not like interested in relationships.

So you leave the world where, you know, sometimes like, uh, non-Christian women, or even sometimes Christian women can act in manners unbecoming of godly Christian women. And men do the, you know, men will do things similar as well.

Like there's an entire epidemic where, uh, not even just my generation of men, but a lot of men are just, you know, they, they cannot like stop looking at, um, I'll just call it pornography just in case YouTube like wants to censor, but they can't stop looking at that and watching it.

And so there's definitely, you know, problems in, in both sides, but I mean, there is hard to find women out there in the world, but even when you go in the church, like there's a lot of times where women will either just, they're not interested in any of the guys of the church, they're interested in all these other guys out there.

And if you try to ask one of them out, then the next thing, you know, is the word goes around that, Oh, this guy asked me out. And that somehow is treated as taboo. I actually had somewhat of a similar experience where, um, I asked like this one girl out of church and then like, she told like a bunch of people like about it.

And it was just kind of a whole situation. So I definitely understand, um, the hesitation. I don't want to fault them too much for it. Um, so, and I even know one guy who he got on a dating app. He met this girl, the buddy of mine, when he met this girl, he was 38 years old.

She's a 35, I believe. And believe it or not, they got married. So we don't want to completely throw dating apps out, uh, you know, in the trash though. That is most of the time where they, uh, they do belong, but, it's definitely hard because even the women in church, if they don't like want to date guys, sometimes they'll, you know, they'll say things like, I might just be called the singleness or I want to be a, this type of person.

I'm not interested in guys right now. So all of that to say, it's, it's hard today. Nowadays, I don't want to, um, underestimate it. And I would say that my situation was very much easy mode. I didn't have to like cold approach her, like out of nowhere to do it.

I just, you know, uh, her brother literally just texted me. And because of that connection I had with him, uh, it worked out. So I guess one piece of advice I'd give you, uh, any single men that are my, I'm 24, any single men, my age, uh, find a good, find a good bro.

And, um, just, you can be a goober, you can troll around, you know, you can have fun with each other. You can make all your, all the jokes that you make. Um, but be more, be a little more well-behaved than all your other peers.

And they'll be like, yeah, I guess if he has a sister and she's a bit prettier, you know, he may, he may try to set you up. So, uh, you know, I'm, I'm sure we can get into more of it, but that sort of is what I have to, what I have to say is, uh, it's, it is rough out there.

I got, I got very lucky. Uh, well, not lucky. I was blessed with how it happened to me, but, um, keep your head up. Don't, don't fully black pill. Um, you know, I don't want to say that it's just the easiest thing in the world.

Oh, just go up to a girl and like do this or that. Cause like, you know, there are social circles out there and it is hard, but at the same time, like don't fully black pill. Um, there are good women out there that, you know, aren't, you can find one, like it will just be patient, be in prayer about it.

And if you don't find one immediately, like, you know, just be blessed with the situation that you have. Look at it as this is a time for me to move forward, um, to continue to better myself through the power of God's grace and things like that, to do that also in the natural realm, like working out and like just staying locked in with a lot of that stuff.

Because there is a sense in which, well, like, um, taking on a wife, it's not like a downside on you. It doesn't, it's not a negative for you, but there are certain things that you might not be able to do that you did before.

So in the meantime, while you don't have a wife, do those things. And then by the time you were able to find a woman, you're better off. And so that's what I noticed is that when I went through like a period of singleness before I met my now wife, I was locked in with a lot of things and I'm glad that I was because it prepared me for this woman.

And so again, like I said, there's a lot more to say. I could yap for a little bit, but I'll, I'll open the floor to you, John, in case you have any questions or comments on my tirade that I just went on.

I think it was a, it was a very good,.

I agreed with everything you said. I just think, um, I want to hear about your wedding. So, uh, no, no, no, like not the details. Like I didn't mean like the crafts and the, I wasn't involved with any of that either.

Uh, more like, did you go on a honeymoon? Like how is life different now? Uh, personal stuff. Yeah. A little bit. You don't have to be like.

Super private. No, no. Okay. I, I, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, no, it was, it was a lovely wedding. We, um, got married at my home PCA church in Tampa. I have this like a dual, uh, membership, uh, thing basically where my primary church membership is at my home church in Tampa.

And then I have like a corresponding membership at, uh, the PCA church here in Orlando. The only thing that I can't do at that PCA church in Orlando is like vote basically and stuff. I think that's what it is.

I'll have to look at the book of church order again on that, all that entails. But, uh, we got married at my home church in Tampa. Um, we had a nice little reception at this, uh, beautiful place called the Davis islands garden club.

Uh, we then the next, uh, morning, uh, I do feel a bit bad about this because I missed church, bro. I, I was not a good Sabbatarian that day. Um, but we, we went on a, we went on a cruise to the Bahamas.

Um, the cruise line was MSC. Uh, it was a nice little European cruise line. So I, I didn't, I was not subject to a carnival cruise, which I I've been on about two of those as a kid. And those were not the most fun, but you know what?

They have banned a Bluetooth speaker. So maybe they're a little, uh, they're a little better now, but, um, yeah, Bahamas was beautiful. Uh, cruise food did not make my tummy feel well, feel well, but you know, we had a, we had a good time overall and now we are all settled into our apartment.

Now everything is good. We moved everything in and got all that sorted before. So I didn't just come back and like have to manage chaos. But yeah, so now, now we're here. That's why I'm filming in the kitchen with like, you know, all the fun, crunchy girl, sourdough bread and stuff behind me.

So yeah, my, my wife is very crunchy. She's all about sourdough and no seed oils and stuff like that. So yeah.

No, it sounds like you had a good time a few days and then you immediately back into the.

Grind as soon as you get home. It sounds like so hard. No, yeah. Work gave me a lot of hours, which, uh, you know, I'm thankful for, but, uh, with like my job that I do or whatever, a lot of evening work.

So I'm like, ah, that's not fun, but you know, we're powering through and you know what? Like my, my classes I had, I didn't have class, uh, the week I got back. So that was nice, you know, a little, little extra break there.

So yeah.

Very cool. Well, I think the holidays are going to be extra special this year for you and Alyssa because you're going to be together as your own unit. I remember that being difficult, um, but also a blessing.

Cause you're like, you have two families now, right? Your obligations were to one family and now you have to figure out whose house are we going to for Thanksgiving? Can we split the time or what do we do?

And you start realizing, oh, we're our own family, even without kids. We, the two of us. So anyway, no, congratulations, big congrats on that. Really happy for you. The group chats are all very happy.

They don't hear Matthew complaining about being single anymore. I'm just kidding. That is true. I was, uh, oh, I was down bad at one point. Well, I think everyone, like even I was thinking about today, cause now that, um, you know, I guess I stepped on a hornet's nest.

I have, uh, all kinds of people upset at me, but I also have people that are really grateful. I've had several really encouraging messages from people that said I needed encouragement to go out and take some initiative.

Cause I was getting depressed and I'm like, well, how old are you? And you find out like, Oh, I'm like 25 or something. Right. And, um, I don't know. Uh, I remember when I was like 22 and I thought like, oh, it's, it's over.

Like I can't find anyone that it's. And I, I remember being in a blue state, right? I was in New York at the time. I also had lived in California a little bit. And I, a lot of the things people describe, I did experience, even though this is like 10 to 15 years ago, I think, uh, being in a blue state makes it like we're farther ahead or however you want to, we're not ahead in any like, you know, metric that's good.

It's just, we're farther ahead in degeneracy and so forth. And, uh, yeah, like New York, I was like, man, it seems like everyone has a feminist tinge to them. I, I had a few times that, uh, I had a number of girls upset at me because you know how it works, right?

You, one girl, if you, if you offend one girl and she talks to her friends, like you've now alienated the group that's happened to me a few times, I'll tell you one story. This is probably the most, this is the funniest story.

Okay. So I was in California, right? Which is tremendously blue. So it is very, uh, it's different than being in Nebraska or Oklahoma or Alabama and dating, I think. And so it's probably more close, closer to what the conditions are like almost everywhere now, but this was like 15 years ago or more.

And there was this girl and, um, I thought she was kind of pretty. And I walked up to her and she, she had been raised in Germany. And what do you think the first thing I asked her was when I heard that she was from Germany, which side, how about them Nazis?

I was like, I don't, I mean, it just, it naturally, I like history and stuff. And I was like, oh man, what do they, uh, what do they teach in the schools about the Nazis? Like that was kind of an embarrassing episode, huh?

Or, I mean, now, now, now that Hitler's being revitalized by some groups, you know, maybe they think that's not embarrassing, but at the time, right, this was like, especially like, why would you bring that up, John?

And, uh, she just looked at me like, that was my opening line. Um, guys, Hitler is not the opening line. I just want to let you know, don't just don't, don't do it. So she, she just looks at me like she didn't know what to say.

And she, she kind of, she's trying to get out of the conversation. I'm pretty sure. And, and that, and I realized like, oh no, what did you do, John? And then I'm trying to explain why I asked the question.

That's worse guys. Don't explain your, like you step in it. Don't.

Try to explain. If you ask about Hitler, just keep, just keep asking. You just keep asking,.

Right? You're like, okay, well we'll talk about Goebbels then. Like, what do you want to talk about? Rommel? We can talk about Rommel. So, uh, anyway, she, uh, exited the conversation. I found out six months later from one of my friends who, cause I couldn't figure it out.

I was in this college career group and I'm like, man, I can't seem to get any of the girls to talk to me. And I've never had this problem, right? This is, I've, there's always been pretty easy for me.

What's going on here. And so my friend comes up to me, he's like, dude, um, I just found out all the girls have been upset at you for a while. Why? What happened? He's like, well, you kind of did the Hitler thing with, uh, so I was like, and I had, I had, by that time I had almost forgotten about it.

And I was like, Oh no. I was like, so she went and talked to everyone. So I guess that, I don't know how the mechanics works, but that's what I'm assuming happened is she told her girlfriends like that guy over there, man, that was offensive.

He thinks just cause I'm German. Like I know all about Hitler and well, you know, if you're American, you might know.

Something about Washington or it's kind of like, you know, and something that recent, I think it's.

Reasonable to assume she'd know about Hitler. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? You're right, Matthew, I was wrong. So I think so. I think that was perfectly reasonable. But like, honestly,.

Like, uh, that, that example that you just gave, I think that does explain like, I, cause your original dating tweet, I think it was like a, I was trying to find it earlier before we came on, but you had said the one that went like mega viral.

I think it was like the first one where it was just like, find a girl, approach her, ask her out, you know, and then repeat or something like that. I think you just repeat. Yeah. Yeah. I think the reason why some people like push back a bit against that was cause they felt like, like this story that you just told, they've probably done something like that.

And then that happens. Um, you know, and like I told you, like there was an instance where that's happened to me before. Um, you know, and so honestly, like the only time I've like, uh, you know, in the past I've ever like cold approach women is if it was like in a setting that was like super different than, um, than like a very familiar place.

Like I remember when I was working, uh, in construction full time, I was at Lowe's and I saw like this, this girl, like every time I was there and I just like, I just went up and I'm like, Hey, you want to grab coffee sometime?

And then she's like, I have a boyfriend and I'm just like, okay, whatever. But I honestly like, I was just glad I did it. Cause I was like, oh, now I can say a cold approach to a woman or something. Oh, I've had that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you know, I don't see like a, sometimes I see my personalities, I can do, I'll do stuff like that. And I generally just like, don't care. I'm cause I'm like, oh, womp womp.

If a girl's like off put by that, then I've just weeded them out. But like, I can't understand if it's a more tight knit circle and maybe like a bit like, so yeah.

Well, I've twice, this is also funny kind of like I've twice had girls where I walked up to, well, I didn't walk. So, so actually that tweet, that was one of the things it's, it's Twitter, right? I can't put like a re I can't write a book necessarily.

So I, I assume you already, you like the girl and you know something about the girls because you like her. Like you're, I don't advocate a cold approach where out of nowhere, I mean, some people that they think the Lord wants them to do it.

Okay. But I think for most people, that's not going to be the case. Like you gradually get to know someone, but then at some point you have to talk to them. I don't care how you do it. You have to break the ice.

That's all I was trying to say is like, Hey, if you break the ice at some point, don't just sit on the sideline. But anyway, there was these two times, uh, twice this happened to me where there was a girl who I kind of started to get interested in and I started spending time with, like I, I would give her rides.

I started hanging out in group settings and I was right at the precipice of doing what I said in the tweet, like asking her to go on a date with me. And it was, it was like carbon copy, both of these experiences.

And I find out before, right before I'm going to ask, she'll show up at a group setting with not her boyfriend, her fiance, who I had never heard about. And you've been giving her rides. Well, I had, you know, going to like ministry events and stuff.

Yeah. And I, she never mentioned, right. It was, I was only like a month in, in both of these situations, uh, texting her. Uh, no, no, I hadn't. Well, today you probably would be back then. I don't know.

It was a different little different. Uh, you, you could start texting, but we didn't even have a smartphone. Well, did I have a, I don't think I had a smartphone. Um, it was more just in person. I would see her, uh, at ministry related things, but I find out in both, in two situations, it was like carbon copy.

And I was like, I remember after that happened two times, it was almost in a row. I was like, you know, I don't know, like, I don't know what's going on. I must be doing something wrong. So I'm just saying that to, to sort of relate and say, look, I understand there are situations that scar you and you, you just don't feel like, okay, I, what's the point?

Like I invest all this time. And then son of a gun, like she didn't even tell me, maybe she was afraid to tell you, maybe, you know, she didn't want to let you down. Who knows? But I think, uh, I think the takeaway is you just, you don't give up hope.

That's really my main thing. You just don't give up hope. You keep going. Right. And it's like, um, uh, it's, it's like, what's the old, you probably wouldn't know if there's this, uh, Chris Ledoux song.

It's a, he's a country singer from years ago, but like, you know, you get back up when you're thrown down, like in a rodeo, like, okay, one bull bucks you, you get, get back up, get on another one and don't stop.

Uh, because eventually if you do talk to enough girls, you will find someone Lord willing that you're compatible with and that it works out. And I have a wife, you have a wife and it's a wonderful thing.

So just don't take yourself out of the, the quote unquote dating game or courtship game, whatever. I don't know where, where, if you're at a church that does that, do that. But yeah, that's kind of my thing.

And yeah, we didn't really, we didn't really court. We just, uh, well, I mean, like I asked her dad if I could date her like over the phone, but I mean, it wasn't like a, he, he wasn't in town for me to like him to be present in like all the rooms and all that while we were, while we'd.

Go out or something. But yeah, well, I mean, you're, you're in the world of vehicles too. I mean, how you can't, unless you have a chaperone everywhere you go and then it's, things aren't natural. I mean, there used to be, you'd have like a sitting room or a parlor where you could court and there wasn't, you could be alone with the person, but there was like a hallway.

So there was enough of like, Oh, anyone can walk in at any minute. And, um, I don't know, it'd be cool to bring back, but anyway. Yeah. So I dunno, you have anything else you want to add any, uh, Zoomer wisdom on the conditions out there and, uh, what to do or not to do before.

We talk about Bodhi? Uh, sure. I'll, I'll see if I can cook up something. Zoomer, Zoomer wisdom, uh, for all the, all the, um, hopeless incels whom I love dearly and count as my brothers, guys, it's going to be okay.

I promise. Um, it's bleak. It looks tough, but you know, I, and like, you know, at the end of the day, like sometimes it is like hard to say, and a lot of this stuff does just sound like, Oh, like boomer isms or whatever.

But at the end of the day, like you just to fall into despair is never going to help your case. Instead, literally just have like, have like fairytale optimism, even if it seems hopeless, just have optimism nonetheless, because that impacts how you carry yourself and how you carry yourself is like read by other people and things like that.

And so like, you will make it like do all the self-improvement things, do all the, you know, do all the isms and things like that, but it will be fine. Just talk to people, get, get to know other people, have connections, do those things.

Like I would say like the most I've gotten by in my life has been because I've made connections. And guess what? The way that I got married was through a connection. Cause one of my really good friends who I met on Twitter, who I then met in person, who I then hung out with a lot throughout the years, who then was like, Hey Matt, come to central Florida for RTS Orlando, who was then friends with this one guy who I became friends with.

Then months later was like, Hey, my sister is interested in you. So make connections. You got it. Don't isolate yourself. Like have, have pointless optimism that even if it doesn't seem like it's going to pan out, it's harder than it says, like than it sounds, but a lot of that can come about through just having a good group of guys and, you know, just talking to people.

So it's hard. It might sound like a boomerism or whatever, but it really is that simple. And just like I said, to like, find guys that are your age as well. And just talk to them. Cause you don't want to like do this alone.

Be it like in person, which is preferred or in the group, just, just talk to people. And that may help you keep your head on straight. So that's all I have to say about that.

I think that's great. That's, I actually just saw this too with my own wife. Like it was a connection to actually, I didn't think of that at first, but we, we did meet in person. Not, it wasn't someone trying to hook us up.

It was just, it was an event that someone invited me to. And yeah, it was mutual friends that I really, that I met her through, but that was after I was on, I did the online dating thing for three months.

I didn't like it. I got off at that. And then I was moving actually, I was moving to a lot of people don't know this, but the, one of the reasons I went to Southeastern Baptist theological seminary, and it was a major reason for me was to get out of New York.

And I had been in California before to get out of California, to be in more of a traditional area where I thought I could find a girl who was more traditional minded and had pretty good theology. And maybe we would line up with our personalities and the rest.

And it was on my way out that I met my wife, Danielle. And I even remember telling one of her friends who said like, you guys seem like you're having fun together. You'd be good together. Cause our humor was for similar.

I said, I can't, I can't be with her. I said, because I am moving to North Carolina. I am not doing this on my way out. Sure enough, you know, that we, a long distance relationship starts as I'm in seminary in North Carolina and I'm like, man.

So yeah, it can become, it can come from unexpected places too. You don't know what lies ahead and that is the providence of God. That's what that is. So good word. Congratulations. I do want to talk about Bodie on this podcast.

We do have some comments coming in. Kevin Hein says that he had a personal relationship with Bodie and that he misses him. That's sad. I know a lot of people did. And I think Kevin says that, I think he met my mom, died on Friday night, 1995, September 1st.

Okay. I met my wife two days later in Sunday school. The Lord is good. He is sovereign. We must continue to surrender to him. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Talk about meeting tragedy and then blessing. It's that's life though.

Dr. Bob, I don't know, is he trolling us? Happy Sabbath, man. I mean, I, it is, it is the seventh day. It is Saturday, but I don't think Dr. Bob is wrong. Covenant, Dr. Bob. Wrong covenant. So, and then there's some comments about dating, but we won't get to that right now.

Let's switch gears. So Bodie Bauckham, there's two articles on the TruthScript website and both of them are written by Harris's. One of them's by my brother. One of them's by me. So it's, I've been good, the impact of Bodie Bauckham on my life.

And then I just wrote this morning, the last adult in the room, reflections on Bodie Bauckham. I do need a ride, everyone. You can scroll down to the bottom. If you want to support TruthScript, it is a five one C three, or if you want to publish with us, those tabs are at the bottom.

But these are the articles that we're going to be discussing. Maybe I'll just start it off this way. Matthew, were you on the honeymoon? Where were you when you heard about.

Bodie's death? No, I was not on the honeymoon at the, it was immediately after the honeymoon. I technically was still on, but we'd gotten back from our little cruise and I was hanging out with my wife and her family.

So I was with her parents, one of her aunts and uncles, and her brother. Wow. He's my brother-in-law now. I love that guy. I'm actually going to get sushi with him when we're done with this. Side note.

But he was, we were all sitting at this table. We were smoking cigars and drinking wine. And then I found out about it cause I'm in a group chat with him. And you guys know him on Twitter as Christian Mario, the heterodoxed Eastern person who is like my best friend.

But I disagree with him on that. Everyone knows that. But he actually texted our group chat with like the RIP thing. And he's just like, dude, this is crazy. This is so sad. Rip. And my friend David is a very goofy person in general.

And my brother-in-law Eddie thought he was kidding. And he's just like, dude, Dave's joking. And we're like, no way. So I just immediately went to Founders. And it's sad because my mother-in-law is a really diehard Vodie Bauckham fan.

And so we read about it and we read it out loud and she had to go in the other room. Cause she was like that hit by it. So it was really sad. Cause it's especially, it's like a little bit after Charlie Kirk.

And then like, and I know you mentioned this in your article, John, but then like also John MacArthur a little bit ago. It's just, it's sad to like have all of that just like compound. And when I was thinking about it too, sort of reminds me of like, imagine how like the early church felt seeing all these apostles die and be killed for their faith.

It must've just been like the most discouraging thing in the world to see like these monumental figures just go. And of course I would even say like, their pain might not compare to our pain because we have this understanding of like these people are fallible men, but like, nevertheless, they are, they're very important, valuable people.

Like all of them have like shaped many of us throughout the years. So it was really, really heartbreaking to see, but yeah, we were, I was hanging out with her family when we had all found out.

Did you listen to Votie Bauckham yourself or had you been impacted by his ministry?

Oh yeah, definitely. When I was a freshman in college, I went to a public college. In between like classes and stuff, I'd listen to Votie Bauckham sermons to keep my sanity. So I remember I listened to Votie a lot when I was 18.

I would listen to his sermons and just take notes on stuff. And Ligonier, 2023, I got to like get a picture with him and meet him. And like, it was like a line for a picture. I didn't like have a long conversation with him.

Like I didn't go, Oh, I knew Votie. It literally, I just shook his hand, thanked him for what he did and got a picture with him. But you know, he was just a wonderful, wonderful guy. And I'm very thankful for his ministry and for just him being bold.

Because I think a lot of the reason that people really appreciate Votie is that he spoke with clarity. And then not only did he speak with clarity, but he was just, he was bold. You saw him and you knew that was like a masculine man.

And like, he showed that and like what he did as well, like with how boldly he proclaimed things with the fact that this guy went to Zambia to start a school and like did all this stuff, came back to Florida to start like a new seminary.

And I have a good friend of mine, Dr. Christopher Cleveland, he's at that seminary to teach Greek there. I know he was really hit hard with the passing of Votie Bauckham. But yeah, and he did martial arts, man.

So he could take you down. He was a big guy. I remember Brandon Corley on Twitter one time said something like, is there any theologian throughout history who could have wrestled down Votie Bauckham? I didn't think so.

So yeah, it was really sad to hear, especially just like right after Charlie.

Too, you know, just compounds. He's a big guy. Yeah. I know you think you look at him on the screen and you're like, oh, he's, he's, he's a big guy. And then you actually meet him in person. You're like, he's actually bigger than you think.

His muscles, his height, his broad shoulders, all of that. So I think that definitely contributed to his message. It just was more forceful because of it. But I was at the men's retreat, which it was literally, we had just started.