May 23, 2022 Show with Dr. Joe Morecraft on “Is America Under the Judgment of God?” PLUS Josh Clark, Georgia Right to Life’s Only Pick for the U.S. Senate Race in Georgia

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 23rd day of May 2022.

And what a great way to start off the week and having two excellent guests return to the program.

For the first hour, we have the honor and privilege of interviewing Dr. Joseph C.

Moorcraft III, author and pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

He is going to be addressing, Is America Under the Judgment of God? And for the second hour, we're going to be joined again by Josh Clark, who is

Georgia Right to Life's only pick for the United States Senate race in Georgia, the outcome of which will be determined tomorrow.

And we're looking forward to, God willing, hearing that Josh has won that seat.

And I hope you join me in praying for that end. But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

Joseph C. Moorcraft III. I'm glad I can be here, Chris. Thank you so much for being here.

And once again, tell our listeners, especially for the sake of those who have not yet heard you on the program and have not yet heard anything about Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, tell us about that congregation.

It is a small but growing congregation in Cumming, Georgia. Cumming, Georgia is just north of Atlanta, Georgia.

It is a member of the Reformed Presbyterian Church and over Presbyterian.

We are committed to the Reformed faith, committed to the inerrancy of Scripture, committed to the carrying out of the

Great Commission, and we support missionary work in Mexico, in Brazil, and wherever we have the opportunity.

Just recently we sent a team of five men just across the border to witness illegal aliens and they were able to preach to about 5 ,000 people.

And so our number, though we have about 75 members, our influence exceeds our numbers and God continues to bless us regularly with new members.

Praise God. And if anybody wants to find out more information about Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, go to HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. It is quite providential that what we're discussing today is

America under the judgment of God. Right before coming to my studio, I was at the local public library, which is now just about a one -minute walk, if not less, from my new studio in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And on the bulletin board, they have proudly displayed a poster, Carlisle Pride Father's Day Drag Show.

And they have all kinds of abominations occurring with drag queens involved in this event at a local restaurant that I visited once and do not plan on ever returning, now that I know what kind of agenda they support.

But it's a frightening world and things are quite horrific, although some of us who are forgetful about the history of the world or those who are just completely ignorant of it are not aware that things for the church centuries ago were quite more horrific, where humans were used as torches.

And, of course, most people even know about the fact that the

Christians were fed to the lions in arenas. But, of course, things like that, perhaps not those specific ways of brutalizing people, but quite horrendous things are happening to the church, especially in places like the

Sudan and other places in the globe. But when it comes to the area of America being under the judgment of God, I find it interesting, and perhaps you would agree with me, that the kind of person that would most typically respond negatively to that statement is a conservative.

Not necessarily a conservative Christian, but your average

Republican and politically conservative person has such an exaggerated and unbiblical high view of America that they dare not say anything to criticize it.

Am I off base here? They cannot imagine a world without America.

Right. Which is, of course, difficult for me too, but back in the year of the 5th century, people could not imagine a world without Rome.

And yet, Rome did fall, and Augustine wrote his book,

The City of God, to tell us why, to tell Christians exactly the cause for that.

And so, the question is, is America under the judgment of God, is a complex one.

There's a lot of angles to it. For instance, there's two kinds of judgment in Scripture.

There's retributive judgment, and there is redemptive judgment. There are some nations that God judges simply for the purpose of wiping them off of the face of the earth to satisfy

His justice, because they have gone so far in their rebellion against Him.

And there are passages in the Scripture that I take seriously that could apply to America.

I pray it won't. And that is in the first chapter of Romans, where it says that when a culture gives itself over to homosexuality, it is a sign that God has given up on that culture.

And you see that particularly in Sodom and Gomorrah, which was given over to homosexuality, and so God sent fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed it and wiped it off to this very day.

So I pray earnestly, and all these things ought not to scare us. But what things like that and statements like I've just made should do to Christians is cause us to earnestly and to fervently pray, because if America is to survive, it is because of the sheer mercy of God.

I often tell people that it's difficult for me to see how

America can escape the judgment of God after murdering about 65 million unborn babies.

That's not a prophecy. That's just simply saying if there's any nation and culture that deserves

God's judgment, it is America. We rose so highly and were so influenced by the

Christian faith, and then we have fallen so far away from what we originally intended to be.

Then there's another kind of judgment in the scriptures, and that's a redemptive judgment.

That is where God judges a country or a culture in order to get the filth and the rebellion out of it, so as to restore it.

I'll illustrate a great illustration in the first chapter of Isaiah. If anybody wants to really know what the

Bible says about judgment, by the way, don't go to Google. There's a bunch of wacko articles on there.

If you want to know what God says about judgment, read the book of Isaiah.

The first 39 chapters of Isaiah are emphasis on judgment, and then starting with chapter 40 through the 66th chapter, the emphasis is on restoration.

In chapter 1, it says that Zion shall be redeemed by justice.

Now, that's interesting, because normally you think of Zion being redeemed by grace and by mercy, but you'll think of justice as being one of the motives for the redemption of Zion.

God redeems Zion, that is, promises to redeem his people through justice by punishing sin in their lives and by ultimately punishing their rebellion in Jesus Christ.

But what I'm trying to get to is this. God says, I'm going to purge the dross out of your culture.

You mix your wine with water. You mix your gold with dross.

Your economy, your whole life is influenced by your rebellion against me.

And so I'm going to burn the dross out of your culture and restore you as at first, and restore judges as at first, and make your city once again a city of righteousness.

So God does bring judgment upon a culture, not to blot it out of history, but to purge the dross out of it.

Now, what that means, then, is judgment can either be long term or short term.

In America's case, I believe in the long term, there's going to be restoration.

I'm not a prophet. I believe in the long term, there'll be repentance on the part of the church in America.

And with that repentance, there'll be the restoration of the church.

And it'll once again become a praise in the earth. And so if anything happens in the short term, judgment -wise,

I think it'll have a redemptive purpose, but I don't know. But I do think in the short run, there's going to be judgment in this country.

I mean, you look at it, we have been rebelling against God, as we said the last time was on, for 200 plus years.

In the past few years, it has greatly accelerated. And now that rebellion is blatant in your face, like the sign that you saw about drags and all that stuff.

That they boast on their rebellion against God. And so in the short run,

I think we are going to taste God's judgment. God knows how to judge people and nations, and God knows how to keep the righteous from perishing with the wicked.

And God can judge by all kinds of things. By providence, natural disasters, collapse of economics, tyranny, all kinds of things.

And we see all these things blatantly now in our culture. I believe in the short term, there's going to be a punishment of America.

I pray that it's purging the dross out of our system. And of course the real question you ask, when you ask is

America under God's judgment? Is the church in America under God's judgment?

That's the place to ask, to look at. Because the spiritual condition of the church determines the political and economic and social condition of the nation in which that church exists.

And so we don't improve our condition by electing the presidents we elect, the

Supreme Court justices we appoint, the amendments to the Constitution.

The way America escapes economic, social, institutional judgment is by repentance.

Jesus said, I tell you no, but except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.

And that's as true for cultures as it is for individuals. So when the church repents, genuinely and sincerely and deeply,

God will bring restoration and healing to our land. Now what does repentance mean for the church?

Repentance is not something you do once, it's not something you do often.

Repentance is a way of life. A Christian is always repenting.

A Christian culture is always repenting. I think it was Votie Baucom, I could be wrong, but I think it was him that said not long ago, repentance is not the beginning of the

Christian faith, it is the Christian faith. That is exactly right. I read that same quote.

So what does repentance mean? It means, first of all, in the pulpit, that preachers repent of the way they've been preaching.

And I'm not just talking about liberal preachers who deny the infallibility of Scripture. I'm talking about allegedly evangelical and even allegedly reformed preachers.

They need to repent of the way they've been preaching, the way they've been preparing their sermons, the way they've been looking at a text, how they've presented their text before the congregation, what they've been saying about Scripture, how they've been laying it out to the congregation.

There must be repentance in the pulpit, beginning with preachers on how they preach and what they preach.

And I'm talking to the Calvinists and to the evangelicals. There's got to be repentance in the church today concerning the way they lead the congregation in prayer on Sunday.

I've never been able to figure out why we spend so much time preparing what we're going to say to man, and then we make no preparations on what we're going to say to God in the prayers and the morning worship service.

We must put more thought in it. There's great books on prayer. Samuel Miller wrote one.

Dabney said some great things about congregational prayer. We've got to repent as preachers of the way we've been praying in the pulpit on Sunday mornings.

And that's just the beginning of how we deal with our congregation. Do we know our congregation?

We've got to repent of the way we're living with our congregations. Are they important to us?

Or are they just the source of income? Are we willing to give up our lives and our energy and our time and our money for the benefit of our congregation?

Do we see the church as something that exists for us as preachers?

Or do we exist to the glory of God for the benefit of the church? Any repentance that's going to bring cultural change must begin in the lives of evangelical and reformed preachers.

The way we preach, the way we pray, the way we relate to the congregation, the way we relate to other people around us.

And then the congregation must repent. It must repent of its lackadaisical response to the preaching of the

Word of God. I preached yesterday on what

Peter said in 2 Peter chapter 1 where he said, I was there at the Mount of Transfiguration.

I was on that holy mountain. I saw Moses, Elijah, and I heard that earth -shaking voice out of heaven that said,

This is my beloved son, but I would rather have the book. That's basically what he's saying in the first chapter.

I heard that voice, but I'd rather have the book because the book is that voice written down permanently in black and white.

And yet we so glibly say, Well, yes, we're Bible -believing Christians. I believe everything in the Bible. But the issue is, do we bow before every word in the

Bible that is the word of the majestic glory? Amen.

And once there's repentance there, you're going to see the conversion of people in our culture.

You're going to see the capturing of the hearts and minds of people in our culture. You know, there's a verse,

I'm sure you're familiar with it, in 1 Peter that says, Judgment begins with the house of the

Lord. Well, it doesn't really exactly say that in Greek.

What it says in Greek is, Judgment begins from the house of the

Lord. And when

God goes to judge a culture, it is the spilling out of the judgment that he's poured out on the church for a rebellion.

And for some churches, it'll be retributive. They'll be gone. There are some churches that were around for centuries that are no longer in existence.

They went to sleep. They sold out. Many of the great churches you read about in the

New Testament, they're gone. Yeah, churches primarily in Great Britain that are now mosques.

Yes, that is true. In fact, one of the greatest churches in the world called the

Church of the Holy Wisdom in Istanbul, built centuries and centuries ago, is now a

Muslim museum. So, when the church quits preaching the word of God, God can either remove its candlestick forever, like many of the seven churches to which the book of Revelation was written.

They're no more in existence. I pray that when God goes to judge the church in this country, that it will be redemptive to purge out the troughs.

There's a prayer that preachers pray a lot. I hope they understand what they're praying. When they pray,

Lord, revive your work in the midst of the years, and in your wrath, remember mercy.

Now, we love to pray that last part, and I pray it very, very, very sincerely all the time.

I mean, even when God goes to judge the apostate, there's going to be hurting effects to every aspect of the culture.

But do we know what we're praying when we pray, Lord, revive your work in the midst of the years?

Preachers, go back and look up that text. We assume it means your work of salvation and of saving sinners.

Revive your work of saving sinners, and in your wrath, remember mercy. That's not what it means in context.

Revive your work of redemptive judgment, and in your wrath, remember mercy.

So that's what we pray for, and it must not be prayed with any kind of smugness. It's got to be prayed with sincerity, bearing in mind that some of that dross that will burn out the culture.

I mean, you don't get dross. You don't get alloys out of silver by hitting it with a feather duster.

You have to put it through intense fire and burnish, and it's only that intense fire that burns out the dross.

Amen, and we're going to our first break right now. If anybody has a question that you'd like to ask

Dr. Jo Morecraft, you can get in line. We have Cindy from Findlay, Ohio, who has a question for you, and we'll get to her first when we return from the break.

If anybody else would like to join Cindy with a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

U .S .A. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Joseph C. Morecraft III right after these messages.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards can have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Moorcraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Moorcraft is Pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary go to westminstercommentary .com westminstercommentary .com

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heritagepresbyterianchurch .com Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sends you. Welcome back.

This is Chris Orenson and our first guest for the first hour today has been

Joseph C. Moorcraft III and we are discussing Is America Under God's Judgment? And we have a question from Cindy in Findley, Ohio.

And she says, Hello Dr. Moorcraft, you are one of my favorite guests on Chris' show.

I recently heard someone say, we Christians spend more time praying saints out of heaven than we do praying the lost into heaven.

You mentioned that preachers must repent of their preaching when they're praying. Could you give us an example of what you mean by this?

Thank you Cindy, that is a very good question. Let me tell you what

I do first of all. The first prayer in our worship service on Sunday morning is a prayer of adoration of God and confession of sin.

And I was convicted several years ago of the fact that I spent hours preparing sermons to preach to the congregation but I hadn't spent any time preparing to pray to God.

I just expected to stand in the pulpit and extemporaneously, spontaneously start talking to God.

And I realized that how sinful that was.

I would not dare do that preaching a sermon. I would spend time to make sure that I had the right words, that I was expressing what

I wanted to express, that what I was saying was in accordance with the word of God sincerely from my heart for the needs of the congregation.

But I hadn't spent any time whatsoever like that preparing to lead the congregation in prayer.

And remember when a preacher preaches on Sunday morning, he does just pray for himself.

Congregation. Which means in my opinion, when he prays on Sunday, he should not normally use the word

I or my or me but we and our and us.

Because he's leading the whole congregation. And when we realize what an awesome privilege prayer is and the majesty of the

God to whom we speak. Can you imagine just going into the court of a human king or queen without any preparation in your mind at least as what you're going to say to him or her and just start talking.

I mean it would be an insult to that monarch. How much more is it an insult for us just to close our eyes and say let us pray and then proceed to say things we had not even thought about before we closed our eyes.

So what I do every Sunday and I've done for years is

I've gone through the psalms mostly not just the psalms but some other passages of scripture but basically go through the psalms and every week begin the worship service by turning a particular psalm into a prayer which is not hard to do because most of them are prayers.

so I would and the psalms of course are full of adoration of God and the psalms are full of confession of sin so I think a preacher should spend time before he prays on Sunday thinking about what he's going to say and how he's going to say it and then our next prayer is a prayer of thanksgiving and intercession and supplication and so I prepare for that prayer as I'm as my wife and I are driving to church it's about 30 minutes away and so we don't talk to each other hardly not because we're mad at each other but because I'm spending that time trying to go over in my mind what am

I going to say to the living God in terms of thanksgiving, supplication, intercession and then what am

I going to say in Memphis, a communion and the prayers there so that's basically what

I'm getting at I think there have been some great prayers that have been written during the years that also we could pray a prayer that I pray frequently is called

Te Deum Laudamus and it was a prayer that had been prayed for 1600 years or more and we can find it in the book of common prayer or the book of common worship it is a great prayer the church has been praying it for centuries

I don't believe that God hears any prayers or he simply say but I believe that we can take prayers that other people have prayed and pray them and God will hear them

I think there is a place for spontaneous praying one time

Charles Spurgeon was in a debate with an Anglican priest and the point of the debate was the priest was going to show that all the prayers prayed in the bible were written and Spurgeon was going to show that they weren't

Spurgeon won the debate by asking the priest who held the lamp while Jonah prayed in the whale's belly so I just want to encourage preachers that you represent man to God just like you represent

God to man and be faithful in spending much time preparing

I can see now I'm working on the second chapter of 2

Peter for next Sunday and I can see now and I've been studying several hours today that it's going to take every day this week for me to understand what that's saying and I will spend hours by God's grace

I will spend time preparing to pray

I write down these prayers that I pray and I keep them in a book so that I can go back to and just keep going through scripture not just the psalms but Exodus 33 or Romans 8 or the

Lord's prayer so that's what

I meant when I said we've got to repent of the way we pray well I'm sure that my conservative reformed

Anglican listeners will be very happy that you favorably quoted from the book of common prayer even though you are quite opposed to a strict adherence to a liturgical calendar that's exactly right

I believe a liturgical calendar following the liturgical calendar in what we're going to preach on Sunday has pretty much destroyed expository preaching yes you said that recently on the show on that very subject and by the way

Cindy in Findlay Ohio closes her email thank you for being a wonderful guest on my favorite

Christian radio show well thank you very much Cindy and we have an anonymous listener who has said and asked some of my very closest colleagues in ministry during the worst times in American history including the terrorist attack on the

World Trade Center and Pentagon building on September 11th in 2001 have said that God had nothing to do with these events and they chastise those especially

Calvinists but not exclusively who said that God is in control of all things including such events are these events a sign of God's judgment on America and if so is it not at the same time very important that we not interpret as if we are infallible prophets why certain things happen at certain times in detail especially if they are natural disasters

I say yes to both of those statements that God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass in time there is no such thing as a meaningless accident there is no such thing as a meaningless hurricane everything that takes place in the life on the life in this planet both natural and or whatever is a result of the sovereignty of Almighty God there was a plane crash years ago a friend of mine was on it and somebody asked me was that a plane crash to remove him from history

I said I have no idea but apparently God did have an argument with somebody on that plane and so we cannot predict we cannot say why

God did certain things why God in his providence orchestrated 9 -11 to take place there's many things we can say about it there's many things that it has done to us and God did have a purpose in it but like our listener said we cannot specifically explain what those purposes are one time

I was on a talk show radio talk show in Connecticut I was at my house here in Atlanta and the program was on natural disasters and Christianity and some woman called in and asked me like this

Mr. Moorcraft what do you think is the relationship of Christianity and natural disasters

I think she was already mad at me because she didn't like my accent so all

I did to her was read from Isaiah 46 where God says

I am the Lord I create good times I create calamitous times

I am the Lord who does all these things and that's all

I said and then she said well that's just your interpretation and I said ma 'am

I didn't interpret anything I just read the Bible to you so the point is

God does have a purpose for everything that happens every calamity

God has a purpose in it and what's that purpose we have to trust him for it another time

I was in South Africa preaching and the subject they wanted me to come there to preach on was the sovereignty of God I don't think they really knew what they were asking it was a great big charismatic church but I obeyed and preached on what they asked me to preach on there's about a six hour difference that time of year between America and South Africa so I won't forget this at 830 one night

I was preaching on how God has a purpose for everything that happens to us in this life even every tragedy no such thing as a meaningless accident

God has a purpose for every tragedy that takes place in our life it was 830 so I go back home after church where I was staying and there was a fax for me first time

I ever got a fax first time I ever saw a fax machine and the fax said from Becky it was dated 2 o 'clock excuse me 2 .30

that afternoon now 2 .30 America time is 8 .30

South Africa time and she wrote and she said dear

Joe a lightning bolt just hit a tree in our backyard and it fell into the house and burned our house down whoa everything

I owned was in the suitcase wow the same time

I was preaching that God has a purpose for every tragedy that takes place in your life wow and when it comes to determining in your mind whether or not you believe

America is under the judgment of God don't you think that we really need to examine ourselves especially those that consider ourselves patriots and conservatives we have to examine our motives for thinking certain ways and while we should always be grateful to God for living in a country like the

United States of America and thankful to our forefathers many of whom gave their own lives for the freedoms that we take for granted today we have to be very careful not allow that gratitude and that love of country to become an idolatrous thing isn't that a very dangerous reality sir?

I agree with that I mean I love America I love God far more

I know what God's judgment can do because I study the scriptures and history

I know what it can do so if I were to pray God's judgment down upon somebody like an impregnatory psalm against some particularly evil political personage it would not be lightly when

I pray that God would burn the dross out of our culture I do not pray that lightly

I furnaces hurt you fire burns out dross and so as a result

I'm not one of these people that prays all the time for God's judgment upon America my concern and the focus of what

I pray for is mercy Amen and we have to end it right there unfortunately thank you so much

Dr. Moorcraft I want to repeat your website it's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com heritagepresbyterianchurch .com

I thank you for being on the program and I look forward to your soon return yes sir thank you

God bless you and folks please don't go away because we're going to be joined very shortly by Josh Clark who is

Georgia Right to Life's only pick for the United States Senate race in Georgia it's going to be a longer than normal break so please be patient with us we'll be right back right after these messages from our sponsors attention all men in ministry leadership you're all invited to my friend

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Before I introduce my guest, my second guest today,

Josh Clark, who is running for Senate in Georgia, the United States Senate, the outcome of which will be determined tomorrow,

God willing. Before I introduce him for our second interview today,

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and put I Need a Church in the subject line. And I forgot to mention that, well,

I'll mention it later, because our guest is calling in. And as I said earlier, our second guest today is

Josh Clark, Georgia Right to Life's only pick for the United States Senate race in Georgia. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trump and Zion Radio, Josh Clark.

Chris, thank you so much for having me back. I had such a great time with you. Man, time's flying. Was that a few weeks ago?

Thanks for letting me be back. Love your show. Love what you guys are doing. Oh, it's my pleasure. I loved interviewing you, and I'm thrilled that you wanted to come back, and you contacted me requesting an interview.

And tell us how you are doing right now in that race, primarily against Herschel Walker.

Well, you won't believe what just happened on Saturday. Herschel, who is my childhood sport hero, but we must not confuse celebrity status with patriot fighter.

You could be a nice guy. It doesn't mean you're going to stand up and you're going to fight. And he exposed himself on Saturday in such a big way.

Thank God for the challenges. We're down to the final moment where we've got to galvanize all freedom -loving patriots who love this country, who know how important it is to take back the

Senate. We need to be minute men. We call minute men and minute women. Minute men saved this country.

They were available on a moment's notice. They put everything on the line. And my wife and I are doing that. We need everyone across this country.

They can make a difference regardless of where they are. But here's what happened. Herschel Walker came out on Saturday in an interview and said what

I've already heard that he said on several occasions, but he said it publicly, where he was asked about the election.

Was it stolen? And we all know in Georgia it was stolen. And he said, no, it wasn't.

And they said, well, but Trump says it is, and you're endorsed by Trump. And you know what he said? He said,

Trump's never said that. He said, Trump's never told me that. Don't put word in his mouth. Wow.

That's actually mind blowing. On multiple levels, right?

On multiple levels. And so I'm so grateful that Mike Lindell heard that interview, plus what

Herschel said about we need to amend and change the Constitution because of changing demographics.

And he said, listen. He said, all of that spells disaster for our country. He said, but the fact that he won't even acknowledge the election was stolen because of Mitch McConnell.

He's got the endorsement of Mitch McConnell. He's got the fundraise. He believes he put that on an altar above speaking the truth.

Obviously, the only way to explain it, because I was told when I got this race, if you acknowledge what,

I'm going to say acknowledge what happened because we know what happened. And they said, if you say that, you won't be able to raise the big money.

And you know what? I've been tested before. I've served in the past, as you know, and I term limited myself, and I came home.

I've stood up, and I know you can't fallon me to anybody but God. And when you do, you're already done for.

And just thank God he exposed – and I'm not saying – I don't want to judge who he is that he's not a nice guy, but he's not the patriot fighter that we need in the

U .S. Senate. We are in a crucial time, and I know your listeners know that. In our country, in our history, we need true patriots to rise up.

And I believe the bottom of the Liberty bus that I'm in right now, on the back of the Liberty bus, it's an overcome together.

That's what we've got to do. By the way, brother, you're really distant now. Checking out our – getting on our socials, like, share it, get the word out, because all people have known until recently is that he's a big football fan.

All this big special interest money is flooding in from across the country with Mitch McConnell's endorsements.

Now, Josh, by the way, you're away from your phone or something. Yes, and Josh, can you get closer to your phone?

You seem to be very distant and quiet right now. We're fired up.

You know, we feel like we're – it's like the next generation's Liberty is on the line. So, yes, we are.

So if you go to VoteJosh .com, if you would text your friends in Georgia, let everybody know, hey, this is serious.

We've got to elect a proven constitutional conservative to the U .S. Senate. And if you're able to make a donation, no amount too small and no amount too big.

We're trying to raise some money right now just to send out text messages. And you wouldn't think that costs anything. But when you're sending it out statewide, it costs a lot.

So we're trying to get the word out. If we can raise just another $15 ,000, we can send out a text message that we can hit 300 ,000 people and we can let them know what

Herschel just said. And, you know, I think there's a lot of things going on in this race right now.

As you know, we're in a battle. We're in a battle for – there's a war going on in this country, and there's a red wave coming.

But my concern and my prayers is, Lord, please raise up people who are on that red wave, who will not bend a knee, who will stand just like our founding fathers, who put everything – their life, their fortune, their sacred honor on the line.

Nothing was too much. John Hancock's signature, the wealthiest man, he died in a debtor's prison. And, you know,

I think I shared this with you last time, Chris. That's what we shared with our family when we got in this race.

I read to them. I said, this is what they put on the line for our country. And first of all,

I believe, Chris, that's incredibly inspiring when you see people who have done that. But it's also when

I gave my life to Christ. That was the deal anyway. Surrender my life. Your will, not mine.

You're sovereign. You're Lord of all. And I want your will, not mine. And so – but we've got to do that every day.

We need people running for office who are willing to do that. So we put our – did you – you know what? Since I've been on the show,

I don't know if you heard about the million -dollar debate challenge we put out last week, speaking of putting it all on the line.

Yes. Yeah. And he still has not responded.

Herschel has not responded to that. He hasn't. And I guess we know why now. I mean, you know, there's even more that came out this past week where – but let me back up for a minute for those who don't know.

So my wife, when she woke up, I guess almost two weeks ago now, she said – she said, honey,

I've been praying and thinking about it. She said, we know everything's on the line right now if we're going to save this country.

They're indoctrinating our children. And she was just going over the things that we all know that we're seeing. Middle school children being charged with sexual harassment charges for using – they say the wrong pronoun, but you and I who know

God's word know it's the right pronoun. Genesis 127, he made them male and female, made ye them, or created in God's image, and it's only male and female.

And she said, I mean, this is all on the line. Who would have thought this would all happen so quickly? And so she said, you know what?

And I was so encouraged. This is where it's awesome. You know, spouses, when you're getting in God's word and you're praying and you're in a marriage and you're being in God's word, you're praying.

One chases a thousand, two ten thousand. And when my wife said to me, she said, honey, if we leave them nothing but the legacy that we laid it all on the line, that we were willing to risk everything.

She said to be obedient to God, to fulfill our civic duty that I believe that we have being blessed in this country.

And when we see what's going on, what are we willing to do? She said, if we leave them with nothing but what our grandfather left us with, a godly legacy, and they have freedom to worship, hey, score, we succeeded.

So what we did was we put our home on the line. We said we'll sell our farm and we'll give a million dollars to charities, charities that we've vetted, that we support, conservative causes like pro -life organizations.

And if he'll just simply show up for two debates, because he's missed every single debate. He won't show up for the job interview.

And there's reasons why. He sits there and talks about how he goes and speaks to all the veterans and everything.

And here's what's scary. He's been paid millions of dollars as a spokesperson for a health care system who was settled a case for $122 million for allegedly defrauding the government and even hurting veterans by getting them trapped in hospitals, milking them as long as they could, wouldn't let them out.

And when I've served on health and human services, this is a real issue, actually, that there's a fine line between helping people with mental health and then trying to abuse the system and get people where they might be trapped and taking all the money from the government.

So that just came out. He won't answer it. He won't speak to it. He said he started an organization called

Patriots. Anyhow, he said he started it. He never did start it.

That was not true at all. Patriot support. So anyway, there's a lot here on the line here.

And he won't show up and debate anybody. He won't talk about it. So we're just going to do everything we can, put it all on the line. And win or lose, as long as we're obedient, that's all that matters.

But we believe we can get into this runoff with Herschel at the end of the day tomorrow. But we need a little help to get over the line.

Now, I have heard, in fact, I started hearing it yesterday, that today was supposed to be when we discovered the outcome of whether or not

Roe v. Wade was going to be overturned. I don't know if you have an update on that. But I was wondering how you would respond to that occurrence, if by God's grace it is overturned.

And is it a reason that may trigger too much optimism in the minds of conservatives?

Is it enough that that occurs? Just tell us about your reaction to the possibility of the overturning of Roe v.

Wade. I know it's obviously a great step in the right direction, but is it enough? No, and I'm glad you bring this up because I think we've got to go ahead and prepare the troops for battle.

Because while this would be an amazing victory that we have prayed for, we have worked for, it's why

I got involved in the first place in politics. Because at six years old I asked my mom, are we

Republican or are we Democrat? She said, parties change, but principles remain. We support a party that supports life.

In other words, we adhere to God's word and what God says about life, and we protect it from conception until natural death.

That's how I got involved originally. That's why. I said, you know, it's my civic duty to get involved.

God's given us a voice. I need to exercise that voice. And I want to hear him say, well done, thou good and faithful servant.

That wasn't just caught up in the entertainment, caught up in the blessings of liberty. And I think that's a real challenge, by the way, right now.

We're so blessed with a country. Are we going to get caught up in the blessings like we see in the Old Testament with Israel?

Are we going to stay – are we going to be vigilant? Are we going to be ready for battle? And what

I see happening with this, this will be a victory when Roe versus Wade is overturned. However, in many ways, the battle just begins, and now it goes on two fronts, on the state level.

But yet we also got to realize that it's not only the state level. While the states need to be diligently protecting lives and putting in personhood amendments and all, at the same time, we need people in Congress, in my case in the

US Senate, that will introduce a personhood amendment. Because Pelosi already – because they realized with a conservative

Supreme Court, they realized that it might be overturned. So last year, under Nancy, Speaker Nancy Pelosi's leadership, they passed an abortion bill legalizing abortion all the way to the end.

It went way further than Roe versus Wade. And now they actually had a vote in the

Senate, and so the battle – they said they're going to keep coming back to this. They are determined to ramrod it through the

Senate. So we need somebody, I would say by God's grace, like me, who is prepared to go to battle and make this a primary issue.

If you can't support life, then what is liberty? It's nothing. God's word teaches.

And it has to be an end to abortion with no exception, because once you alter that, once you say, well, except if the child is deformed.

Well, except if it is a conception after a rape.

Well, except if it is due to the life or health of the mother. Then you're no longer saying it's murder.

That's right. And you know what? There's nobody in this U .S. Senate seat. There are six people in this race, every one of them.

Herschel won't answer the question. It's so far in the past. He wouldn't go there.

Now, he did say something the other day about it, but he won't in the forms that were filled out.

He was not endorsed by Georgia Right to Life. Georgia Right to Life is an – you can't just fill out a form. There's another organization where you just fill out a form, and there's three exceptions.

And he checked off the exceptions. And in Georgia Right to Life, there is no exceptions, and they don't just let you fill out a form.

This is as intense as it should be interviewed, because these are serious issues, and we don't need people just playing politics on this.

And so they really go into it prayerfully, and they really – I don't want to say interrogate, but they really – which

I'm a huge fan of. You've got to get through, and you've got to really discern and ask some tough questions to find out where they're at.

So I was the only one, as you said, when I came on the show who was endorsed in this US Senate seat by Georgia Right to Life.

So I'll introduce a personhood amendment when I get to the US Senate. I can't wait to do that, and then

I'm going to hold the line firm. And that's one of the things that I think that people need to realize. When you have somebody who is two things, by God's grace, a fighter, it doesn't just say it.

I mean everybody says it, but my track record in the State House as a state representative,

I stood against leadership. And maybe we have a chance to come back to that later because I think that's kind of important.

I want people to know it's not just talk. By God's word, there's action. By God's grace, there's action.

There's a track record there. But we need somebody. An example to me of holding the line firm is there's three ways to destroy this country quickly as I see it.

One, seal the election. Two, indoctrinate the children. Gender confusion, all of the above,

CRT. And then the third, and the fastest way to do it, just flood the borders. So speaking of somebody who would stand firm, we need somebody who will say, you know what, you want to send $40 billion over to Ukraine?

Heck no. Not when our youth are dying. The number one cause of death 18 to 45 years old is drug overdoses, and much of that is fentanyl coming from China through the southern border.

And they know exactly what they're doing. There's way more to that story. I mean this is premeditated.

China knows exactly what they're doing. We have a war going on on so many fronts, and yet the devil is such a deceiver.

I mean so many people are just blind to what is really going on. And so that's one of my prayers is,

Lord, help people wake up before it's too late so that we can be found faithful as Christians, that we did our duty, that we weren't asleep on the watch.

And with the borders, when I was a state representative, I helped pass – and it was one of the big issues that I campaigned on – was on dealing with illegal immigration.

And you've got to understand something about me though. I served on the board of a Spanish Bible college for over a decade.

I slept on the floor for years while people lived in our home. We'd have homeless people, people with every shade of pigmentation.

We're all – I mean I was exposed to God's family from around the world, and we're one family.

We're one created by God in God's image. And so I have a love for people of all nations, but you are not a compassionate conservative when you first don't recognize and adhere to these biblical principles that made this country great, these conservative principles that allow people to prosper.

When you allow people to flood across the borders like this, not only do you have massive drug trafficking, you have massive sex trafficking, which is something else that I was proud to help pass legislation in Georgia to fight against.

When the borders are open, the 1 ,400 -plus miles of border on our southern border, when it's open like it is right now,

I mean it's like what good can it do? And then I want to – for a moment,

I want to mention – well, before I say something else and come back to the drugs, I'll come back to that in a moment.

But there's also, in addition to drug trafficking, sex trafficking, and it's a major national security risk.

There are people coming over from 164 countries as we speak, many of those – some of those that are terrorist nations.

Now, when you combine these terrorists and terrorist cells with enough fentanyl to kill every man, woman, and child, think about the connection between the two of those for a moment.

And then let me take you to a real -life conversation last week in Savannah with police officers that had actually – had swarmed the area where we were staying because they got a robbery call.

In fact, could you pick up when we return from our final break with that discussion with the police officers? Yes, yes.

Okay, we're going to our final break right now, folks. If you have a question for Josh Clark, send it in to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, or your country of residence.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Josh Clark. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here, excited to announce that my longtime friend

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Welcome back. We have Josh Clark on for the remainder of the program, running for Senate in Georgia, and is the only candidate backed by Georgia Right to Life.

And you were just about to mention a conversation with some police officers. If you could continue what you were about to say before the break.

Yes, Chris. Again, thank you for having me, and thank you to the listeners. Please, by the way, if you want to check us out and learn more about the issues and why we're running kind of the whole story, it's

VoteJosh .com. But as we were talking about how the fastest way to destroy this country is to just flood the borders like they are with drugs and sex trafficking, but it's also a national security risk.

But back to the drugs, I was talking to this officer down in Savannah, Georgia, and he said,

Josh, one of the – I said, what's the biggest concerns for you guys right now? And he said, Josh, among many concerns right now is the drug trafficking that's coming across the borders, more specifically fentanyl.

He said just a pin drop of exposure can kill any one of us, not just those using drugs, but those accidentally exposed to it in their line of work.

And here's what – as we were having this conversation, started going deeper and realizing this is a risk to everybody across the country.

When you have enough fentanyl in this country now to kill every man, woman, and child, and then you've got even terrorists that we know are coming across unchecked with our borders just being over – completely overrun from 164 countries, and only – in fact, it's like 30 -something percent that are coming from Mexico.

Most of these are coming from countries all over the world. They know, hey, flood the border.

And so there's a lot at stake right now, and we were talking about the need to have somebody who's going to stand. When you're spending $40 billion over to Russia, we're all rooting – excuse me, to Ukraine.

We're all rushing – we're all rooting for Ukraine to fight for their freedom and be able to push back against Russia.

However, why are we so concerned right now about their border and yet turning a complete blind eye to our border?

And I think that's where we need somebody to stand up to somebody like Mitch McConnell who says this is our number one priority is

Ukraine. We need to say, no, no, wait a minute. If you can't take care of your own family – the scripture says that.

A man who can't provide for his own family is worse than an infidel. If you can't protect and serve your own country, then what are you doing spending $40 billion over there?

So we need somebody to stand and fight. And at the beginning of this show, I'd like to, Chris, take people back to kind of what – kind of the alarm that I feel led to call out, to raise.

And that is I'm running against a guy who – I love him.

We've prayed for him. I've taken him to – asked him to meet me for dinner. I said I won't say anything behind your back.

I won't say it to your face. But I told him, I said this can't be about me. It can't be about you. This has to be about fighting to preserve the blessings of liberty for the next generation.

And on Saturday, he came out and said in an interview, he said the election was not stolen.

And he said – he even went further, and I don't know what would lead somebody to say this, but he said that Donald Trump has never said the election was stolen.

And he said President Trump never told me it was stolen. And they said, well, President Trump has said this thousands of times.

And he said, well, he's never told me that. And they said, well, how is he supporting you with that position?

And he said, well, he said Trump has to support me because we've been friends for decades. See, this is one of the things that I think that's why we have to all, as patriots, we've got to have discernment, ask

God to give us wisdom. We've got to vet the candidate. We've got to take this seriously because we don't have time to get the wrong people on this red wave that I think is coming.

But we could just have more of the same, or we can get real patriots, proven conservatives who have already been tested and stood.

Like I served in the State House, and that's what I mean by proven conservative. I term limited myself. I came home, and I'm asking folks across the country, will they get behind us because the election is tomorrow?

And now with all of this has just come out, we're now – we need to get that message, get the word out.

And so we're trying to raise money to send out text messages. And it's hard to raise money when Mitch McConnell, who's the leader of the

Senate, when he endorses a candidate, it's hard when you're on the other side.

But we're trusting God. We know the story of Gideon, what God can do. He can take just a few people that are willing to sacrifice, and we have a team that's sacrificing, our whole team from our campaign manager down.

My campaign manager walked away from being the CFO of a company, $400 million company, in a prime at 42 years old.

And I hadn't been there long in that position. Most people would try to milk it and enjoy that and all. He said, if we're losing our country, what does any of this mean?

So he walked away and said, I'm joining you for free. God helped me when I get to D .C.

to never forget not only our Founding Fathers who risked everything, soldiers through the decades who have given everything for our freedom, and then people like the staff on our team that are laying it all on the line.

I mean they're even volunteering and helping fund the campaign. So we really do need some help, and it's the hardest thing for me to ask for help because I started businesses in my 20s wanting to support myself like Paul did in ministry.

And then God called me to run for U .S. Senate. It's like humbling. You don't have enough success that you can do it all on your own.

You have to ask for help. So we need prayers, number one. We need people text messaging, everyone you know saying, who do you know in Georgia?

Vote tomorrow. And we're praying, pray with us that God will help us raise some money tonight.

The max somebody can give is $2 ,900 per person. But even $10 makes a difference.

It helps us to keep our social media ads. We're just having to run them as Lord provides and just text messaging.

We want to text 300 ,000 people across the state and make sure that they know that we're the candidate that's going to fight for family values and stand strong.

So we're so grateful to be here. Grateful to have you on.

We have an anonymous listener who says, how can I convince my many friends in Georgia who appear to be pragmatists and vote for a person that they even disagree with more than they would disagree with you, but they think the other candidate has more of a likelihood to win?

How do you respond to that, even as a Christian, as to whether or not that is an appropriate action?

Well, I appreciate that question, because I think a lot of people do have that question. Like, well, should we just go vote for the person we think can win?

But that's, to me, what the primary is about. And that's what the great thing about a primary is, where I believe we should be selecting and asking ourselves, who is the most qualified person?

And we shouldn't let identity politics get into this. By the way, that's been a big thing this race. People ask all the time, do you have to be black to be a black guy?

I'm like, listen, Martin Luther King Jr. said I have a dream that one day my children will be judged by their character and not by the color of their skin.

That's what the radical left is all about, identity politics and all. So this should be about, as a dear friend of mine who's a black guy who

I helped him get elected, one of my first state health campaigns, he said it should always be about qualifications over pigmentation.

And that's not the specific question that your listener asked, but it's part of the whole equation.

Like, do you come in and do you vote for the person that's the most qualified, or do you try to pick the winner in the

Kentucky Derby? Or do you ask who's the best person? I believe you pick the person you believe will be the best qualified, who best aligns with what you believe, and that's going to help get more candidates like that if everybody does that.

And then whoever wins the primary, of course I ask you, personally I believe get behind them even if it wasn't your first choice.

Again, pick the best candidate when it comes to November. But in the primary, you have nothing to lose.

No one in Georgia has anything to lose by voting for me and taking a vote away from Herschel, sending me into a runoff with Herschel.

In a runoff, I will beat him by God's grace for lots of reasons. But historically in Georgia, if you're in a runoff, second place wins.

So I can't think of any reason why, when people take a closer look at this in Georgia, they wouldn't say, okay,

I'm going to vote for the person who's most qualified. And when it comes to taking on Raphael Warnock, I'm the most qualified to take him on too.

I went to Bible college. I've memorized, thanks to my parents, I'm so grateful. Best gift they gave me made me memorize books of the

Bible from beginning to end. Raphael Warnock is not a reverend, does not meet the qualifications, and I can't wait to talk about faith and how it intersects with government.

He's never built companies. I have, and I have more legislative experience than he does.

So I'm ready to take him on on whatever front, whether it's talking about business and our economy, whether it's talking about faith and how it intersects, or whether it's talking about the whole broad range of issues that are going to come up in these debates.

I'm ready, and I'm the only person with any legislative experience in this race. Now, do I have as much money as Herschel does?

No, but guess what? When I ran 12 years ago, people said I had zero chance. I had four people in the race.

I was 30 years old, and it's a crazy story how God called me to it. And we were disobedient, and I'll never forget the people who were willing to go out on a limb with us.

Even though in the beginning it didn't look like we were the ones to back, but God chooses to use the foolish things of this world to confound the wise, the base things, the things which are not, to bring the nothing, the very people who think they're all that, so that no person would glory in his own presence, his own accomplishment, so that he that glorieth will glory in the

Lord. And so I believe that we just got to go back to the scriptures, and we need to ask ourselves, who is the most qualified?

Who meets the criteria for leadership? And vote that person, and I don't think we're going to go wrong.

And then show up in November. Again, if it's not me, show up. But it will be, by God's grace, if we come together.

Miracles can happen. Never doubt that a small group – my sister shared this with me when I was in my 20 years old.

Never doubt it. And it's not a Bible verse, but tell me if this is not biblical.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

Amen. I still believe it. We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says,

How does one respond to the notion that Hershel Walker, being black, has a better opportunity to face off with Warnock, also black, so that the accusation of racism cannot enter the picture?

Well, first of all, this is not – it's a great question. Again, I'm so glad they brought that up, and I'd like to come back to that. This is not the

Democrat Party. This is the Republican primary, and in general, I'm not saying that we're going to pull over a lot.

By the way, I've helped switch a lot of Democrat voters, so I don't want to say we can't. But we have enough Republican and independents to win this thing, and look at Trump.

Trump got more black votes and Hispanic votes than anyone has in decades, in decades.

We did not lose because of the pigmentation of his skin. And we will lose this country, though, if we start to buy into the left's argument of identity politics.

We've got to remember Martin Luther King's words, and we've got to be an example of that, I believe.

And again, my friend Melvin Emerson, as I said earlier, said it's about qualifications over pigmentation. I was listening to – in fact,

I called this out finally in the race because it's a question that I'm glad people are asking, and they're wrestling with it.

I love helping get – and I helped get the first black or African -American elected in the state of Georgia.

I helped get the first Latino, but they were people who

I felt like had the qualifications, were the best people in that race and got behind them.

So I love seeing diversity. We get to heaven. It's going to be a rainbow, right? I love it.

But we can't vote for somebody just because we say, well, it's a black person, therefore, we need to send a black person anymore.

As I said in my press release where I felt led to address this last week, any more than we should say we've got

Senator Ossoff, who's a white guy. I don't believe that takes a white guy to be a white guy any more than a black guy.

And I want to share this. Not only Genesis 127, we all know God's word. We're all creating

God's image, and we've got to be an example of that I think in our politics as well. But I'll never forget standing in line for chicken, and I turned to the guy beside me at the

Jamaican party. I said, how are you connected? How are you related? He said, oh, I'm married in. What about you? I said, I'm family.

He said, you mean you married in? I said, no, sir. I'm family. He said, I don't think

I'm on that for a moment. I said, if we believe in a biblical kind of creation, we're all one family. So I believe we've got to come back to that and be an example of that within the

Republican Party, and most importantly, as believers throughout the lie of identity politics.

Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have your website again, and I want them to hopefully support you in every way that you need, not only drumming up votes for you, but contributing to you financially.

If you want to help support Josh in his Senate race in Georgia, go to VoteJosh .com.

VoteJosh .com. In 30 seconds, any other final words? Well, thank you for going there.

Please get on our social media links at the bottom. We've got them all. Please get on there. Share, like, help us spread the word.

Please ask others. Maybe God will put some money on your heart that you think that might be – maybe you can't donate, so maybe you know somebody who will.

I mean literally, even with 24 hours left, it can make a huge difference thanks to technology. You can galvanize and get a message in front of people quickly.

And our family, by God's grace, with six children, married my childhood sweetheart, when people see the picture, they know that we're going to fight for family values.

So we just need to get this out with your help. You can make all the difference in the world all across the country in this race.

And pray for us above all as well, please. Amen. And that's

VoteJosh .com. I want to thank you so much for contacting me and requesting this interview, and I am praying that the

Lord bears much fruit from it. I want to thank everybody for listening today, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater