March 10, 2005

Apostolic Defense, Ministry Updates, and Conference Reflections

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight, seven. Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And welcome to the dividing line on this Thursday afternoon back here in Phoenix, Arizona. Woke up this morning in st Louis, it was a little bit a little bit cool in st. Louis this morning. I think it was down in the 20s somewhere with a pretty nice breeze you get a 24 degree temperature with about a 20 mile an hour wind and it's um, I'll keep you awake.

It's what is it here 85 degrees? 85 big degrees just brought up the radar here and guess what nothing there. Nothing there at all. Just wide open 85. It was 87 earlier. Oh, yeah, 85 degrees according to my little thingamabob II down there and.

So I thought it tells me that the summer's coming unfortunately. And I'm not really looking forward to that around here to be perfectly honest with you. But we were back at the Midwest founders conference in st. Louis in Actually first first Southern Baptist Church st. Peter's as I recall is the name and the folks were very very kind to me.

I spoke three times. I spoke Tuesday evening and then yesterday. Around 11 ish and then last evening 630 after the first session on Tuesday. I did an extensive Q &A session and It went for quite some time.

I was I don't know. Maybe it's just because I'm Getting older or something. I don't know when I travel but I'd say Preaching for a full hour and then doing Q &A afterwards after flying and it was st Louis isn't all that bad.

So two and a half three hours, but Boy, I hope all I can all I know is I'm I'm I know they didn't record it. It didn't record that evening that the Q &A sessions. That's probably best actually when you think about and.

But we had some great conversations with folks. Great people there the you know, the founders conference. I've spoken it. I think three of them so far. Yeah, three of them one in Lynchburg one in the Dallas area and in this one.

And I.

It always makes me very Humble. First of all, there are so many people that listen to this program. I could not believe when I asked it was a good group that they said this is the largest group they ever had.

And I asked how many people were familiar with with the website or listen to the dividing line. And I was just I was just shocked at how many people did as just I'll just never get used to that and Really what was really interesting I might as well make this announcement while we're doing it.

It's really rather providential. A number of people talked to me and and there was at least two Three people this this trip and I know there's good people in channel and I've talked to people elsewhere Who have embraced the doctrines of grace and all the things that come with that.

What I mean by that is You know the change and how you view God how you view yourself how you view the church how you view all of those things. They they did so and it's the process started with the Bible answer man broadcast in December of 2003 and the debate between myself and George Bryson and at least between myself and George Bryson and Then that started the process.

Now it wasn't so much interesting enough and the people I've talked to it Wasn't so much just listening to that debate. But what it was was that? They they were bothered by what I said and.

They.

Were expecting a refutation of what I was saying and they didn't get the refutation and So that prompted them to want to find out what the refutation was and so they end up going and getting Geisler's book but they know that I've written a response to Geisler's book and so they read Geisler's book and Then they read the Potter's freedom, and I can't tell you how many people I've talked to especially folks that were in Few still are but many aren't in Calvary chapels.

Who read Geisler's book and they heard they said, you know, I I've heard Geisler on the Bible answer, man I've heard white on the Bible answer man, and you know, they say a lot of same things about Mormonism and stuff like that.

But man, they're obviously a complete loggerheads on this. So I Need to read both of them. And so I am very very very happy to Invite anyone to read chosen but free in the Potter's freedom together. I've just that that's that's great you feel free to do so and I would encourage folks to do so and we've encouraged folks to to do that read them both check them all out and They've done so and end up, you know at founders conferences and the same thing with this.

With the Bible answer and broadcast they they listen to that and they go man Why isn't there why isn't rebuttal being offered? Why isn't why isn't the text being touched here? So the announcement is I was just last night after I spoke.

I was talking with folks and man, I Just been talking for two days. And I was talking with some folks and they're asking could I you know? Could I hear the Bible answer man broadcast because they heard other people talking about?

Yeah, it's first time I had heard about you. Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh and I knew that there had been some discussion about our carrying it and But I didn't know what the status that was. I was like, you know, I I think they're on the web someplace.

But I you know, I just we've thought about carrying them, but I've heard not heard anything about it. It's been a long time. So I don't think we are and I said no so I get back and Here we have an entire supply now of the CDs of the Bible answer man Broadcast from it was December 16th 17th and 18th if I'm recalling correctly 2003 the rather famous read my book debate.

Where when I brought up John chapter 6 and I tried, you know, I tried to present what it was saying and walk through it. Mr. Bryson's response was well, you know read my book and once his book we finally got his book many weeks later Obviously there there wasn't anything about John chapter 6 in it as far as providing any type of exegetical response.

Ironically, that was the same thing that happened with Norman Geisler because when I when I was writing the Potter's freedom I Wrote to dr. Geisler and I asked, you know, it would seem to me that if you're going to be disagreeing with what you call Extreme Calvinism that At least one of the passages that would really really really require a an extensive Response would be John 637 following but there isn't any Discussion of John 637 your book.

I mean it's quoted a couple little times like half of a verse and like there's no exegesis however, and when dr. Geisler back to me said I fully exegeted John chapter 6 in the book and So some of you may recall in fact some people in the channel help with this.

The first edition of chosen but free had no scripture index, well, okay, I'll take that back. It had a scripture index. It had a useless scripture index. It had an incomplete scripture index and I would actually buy a gift certificate online to a book service and I would send it to somebody in channel to basically pay them to sit down with the book.

I knew who had the book sit down with the book and carefully scan every single page. And then send me a complete scripture index of Any appearance of that particular passage in the entirety of the book so I could make sure Even though I had read the book very thoroughly myself.

I could make sure I was missing nothing I was I was if I was saying dr. Geisler says X Y or Z about this passage I wanted to know every single place where he touched it and So that's what we did. I had people helping me in channel do that.

And so I quoted in my letter that I wrote back to dr. Geisler, this is before the powers freedom came out I quoted every single reference to that passage and Toto in the book and said there's There's no There's no exegesis here.

What you know, this is all that you said and I want to I want to interact with you on this, but there's nothing for me to interact with and The only thing I got back was a postcard that said if you publish I will respond that was all I got back and So the the same thing happened in that situation where I'm trying to well, where is it?

Well, no, it's it's it's actually not there anywhere. It's not there George Bryson read my book. There's nothing in your book to read about this, you know. You just you just can't find that kind of stuff on John John chapter 6.

So I am being told by the powers that be. That's interesting that we are going to be offering a a bundle. And it will involve for 45 big smackers $45 you get the amazing grace DVD. That's over four hours you get debating Calvinism the book and You'll be getting the three CRI programs.

That's three CDs. So so the amazing grace DVD debating Calvinism the book and the three CRI of CDs the three programs because it's one program per.

Hour and.

For $45, that's $10 over the current prices and our current prices are are discounted on all those things. We can discount there are some things You can't discount you just not allowed to do it. But anyways, that's that's going to be up on the on the site I imagine we'll put on the front page somewhere just to make sure that people can find that but If you've been looking for it, you'll be able to track it down and listen.

Yeah $10 savings. Okay under our current prices, you know, I think most folks know what that means. So anyways, that'll be up there. Take a look at it. And we've had a lot of people who have Well you said over But it says savings over communicates to people that they're saving money.

We're not we're not pulling a Benny Hinn here. Okay? They've got all figured out don't don't worry I was watching by the way, I was given very thankfully from Mr. Gatelman Kirk Gatelman gave me the DVDs of the Benny Hinn expose a that I missed on Dateline.

But he also had the Canadian one and he gave them to me he was at the founders conference as well, and I don't know if I should have said that but he was and He gave me those DVDs and I watched them on my computer this morning As I was waiting for the flight out of st. Louis and oh my goodness This time they had they had financial documentation concerning Concerning this guy and They they have been doing a quote-unquote crusade these crusades bring in I Sound like an average of like 350 to 350 ,000 to half a million dollars Per crusade which is which is just oh great, which is just great and They were flying back from I think it wasn't Switzerland it was somewhere in Scandinavia and they had layovers in Milan and London Excuse me, but Milan is not exactly between where you were and where you're going.

That's not really a layover and they stayed in the most expensive largest hotel suite in all of Europe and it cost what was it ten thousand eight hundred dollars per night I Think was ten thousand eight hundred dollars per night.

He was tipping people a thousand bucks, and it's like wow This you know It reminds me of the of the the time again in st. Louis when I was having a dinner with Dave Hunt a Number of years ago his book had just come out and I was sitting right next to him.

And we were talking about Benny Hinn the whole group was talking about Benny Hinn and the wacky things that Benny Hinn says and you know the fact this man is such a glowing charlatan that it anybody who would open their wallet to that man is A complete fool.

I'm sorry. That's the only way to put it the man's So out there that if you can't tell that that guy is is is a charlatan. Then you you have the discernment of a shoelace. Okay. That's just all there is to it the guy is Completely so out there.

It's not even funny, and so we were talking about that. We're talking about one some of one of his wacky teachings, and you know it's funny Let me just mention this he was teaching wacky stuff doctrinally before he got into all the money stuff.

And then interesting how that how that went people don't care about the doctrinal stuff and so now they're They've been giving money to a guy who's off. You know spending all his time and money you know his his his suits that have the ministry logo embroidered in 24 karat gold thread and all the rest is wonderful fun stuff and But the bad doctrine came first and but people don't care about that, so now you've got all the rest of the bad stuff along with it.

But anyway, he was I don't even like talking about Benny. That stuff just just drives me nuts I I just got distracted by something in channel. I guess coach came in and Coach has a little baby a little baby.

It was just born. I guess Just a couple days ago, and So we all need to be thanked all need to pray for coach because coach will not be sleeping For quite some time and sleep deprivation is a is a pretty.

It's it's God's way of getting us back. It really is and it's preparing us for when they become teenagers. And they're out driving around on their own or something like that, and then we get sleep deprivation again.

That's sort of how it works, but Anyway. It was it with the the DVDs were fascinating. I enjoyed oh, I'm sorry, but you need a bit of so I was sitting next to Dave Hunt and he's everybody's talking about this stuff and Finally Dave just just said and and honestly he just said I Just don't understand how anyone can believe that man and I leaned over to him, and I think he's the only one that heard me say it.

I leaned over to him said it's told of gravity Dave. And he started to laugh and then realized what I had said and stopped laughing because he had just come out with what love is This and I hadn't I hadn't actually read all the neat fun wonderful stuff.

He was gonna say about me At that particular point in time so Just one of those wonderful little things that happens in life eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. There's much more.

I can say about the conference. Oh, I will be. How do I handle this. I just got right before the program I got the email to the fella who's making available the CDs of the conference but I got the feeling that He's not got a huge production facility type situation.

So I think what I should do is I should write to him and sort of like warn him before I you know. Do you have a URL that I could send people to? Do you really want you know this many emails are you you know?

That and sort of check it out with him first and then because the the messages were on important subjects. It was on the sufficiency of Scripture and I had been asked to speak about that before they ever heard the book.

So it wasn't well, you've written a book on the sufficient scripture. Why don't you come do your normal thing and I did not do my normal thing? None of the sermons I delivered none of the three sermons I delivered over the past couple days.

Had I done anything Like them really before well, maybe last night a little bit out of Acts 20, but especially the first night and Then yesterday morning on the parable the soils Very very different. I really felt constrained to go a different direction and to address pastors and and Very new new stuff new for me.

Anyways, it's not new stuff. It's old stuff, but So it might be useful, especially if you know someone who I Don't know struggling a little bit with the sufficiency of Scripture and and things like that in the in the ministry.

It might be something you might want to get hold of so I will put that information in the blog but I want to sort of talk with the guy first and Find out about so let's um, let's take a couple of our phone calls.

I've got so once again, I have brother Patterson queued up ready to go but haven't gotten around to actually doing so and Unfortunately The man across the way needs to start providing me with line numbers because You just say somebody has a question on something.

There's multiple lines blinking how am I supposed to know which ones which it's I can just sort of go eeny meeny miny moe and I do I don't know so Gotta start doing that putting a little line number there.

So we know what in the world we're talking about let's go all the way down to The land that has a city called an area called Oakland, right? That's what you call it down there Oakland, right Peter Hello, Peter Oakland Oakland.

Yes. Yeah instead of we call it Auckland but How is that New Zealand. Well, that's funny. Well, don't you don't they call it Oakland those have Auckland? Okay, that's a it's a it sounds like the reason I said that is a fellow went down that direction They kept talking about this place called Oakland and he totally confused him because he was going how do you people know about, California?

Because yeah, yeah, you know he had seen the the word spelled out But he had no idea Oakland that's where the A's play that's you know, and and it's one of those misconnection cultural misconnection stuff.

So anyways, what's up down there?

Look, you know, I just listening to last Monday's program I've been getting. And problems I've had in our own church as you I've probably shared with you before Down here in Sydney, which I was going to for 28, right?

And I think that's a problem with a lot of the churches. I you've got that book, but I think that it's got a lot to do with it. When I started off I said disappeared my message. Didn't I as far as yes.

Yes on the level of the apostasy. Yeah, that is the same thing. Just another thing. Yeah, I think you find that the problem is but the wrong church government in the first Place not a biblical church government is responsible for a lot of this because people left out as you've mentioned before people come to Pay and so they don't teach the truth.

I want to hear like they're itching ears and. So there's no no word of God. There's no real teaching. There's no spiritual dead place and they're run by one person up the top. And there's no and I think that what do you reckon that that's the reason why these people are dredge Christians.

And it's worrying because it's actually about New Zealand. Hmm, and just leave the people like behind the church from when they're not getting anything. It's a church. They're not getting any real Christian.

So if they turn or something.

Spiritual thing. Yeah. Well, you know, I spoke with a number of folks this past weekend at the founders conference and one of the issues that that came up was what happens when you are in a church situation and you have The wrong kind of government.

It is ironic though I think Harold camping believes in the right form of government at least used to as far as a plurality of elders, but Obviously doesn't. Well, yeah, no kidding, but he doesn't believe that anymore.

I mean, what what good is that? But one of the things that they were that they were discussing was the fact that Trying to bring Reformation and a more biblical Perspective on the gospel to a church that has does not have a biblical form of church government Is extremely difficult because what you end up having in it, for example a lot of especially Southern Baptist churches.

But Baptist churches in general is you have what are called deacon boards now everybody's heard of them but where in the world did you get that and These deacons. They don't have the qualifications of an elder in the scriptures but they are put in a position of being de facto elders and they hold to to to their traditions with a tenacity that is just beyond all measure and even if the the the pastor quote-unquote the pastor ends up being a hireling the pastor ends up being a person who is who serves at the pleasure of this.

Deacon board in essence, and if you know what if he teaches anything other than what I want exactly.

He'll be he'll be looking for a new job. And so you it's a very very very common theme that you run into over and over and over again. And it's very discouraging to the people that are that are involved with it or attempting to to bring about some type of.

Biblical.

Reformation revival and so yeah, it is it all it is it all comes together and I've addressed this before it's it's hard to get people overly excited. Concerning the issue of church government, but when you think about it We're talking about isn't isn't Christ the one who should order his own church.

Shouldn't we care about that?

I.

Not just that I think there's only one way the church is going to function that if Christ is the head of the church and if we don't have that and. These other people have got all this ammunition to throw around like Harold camping and the Jehovah's Witnesses and their people will listen because they say Yeah, what they're saying is partly right.

Partly, right? Yeah. Get away with all sorts of garbage after that because people say all this going obviously understand.

He has his yeah, he has his followers and he makes a connection with them and Those folks as I pointed out out of Acts chapter 20 It says these these people who arise up from amongst you do not spare the flock and that means Heresy is not a victimless crime and the the sheep that are that are carved out of the flock are Destroyed in the process.

It is it is an ugly thing to see These people who for example have followed after Harold camping when when that stuff all falls apart. And there's nothing left there. What are they going to do? Where are they going to go?

What's what's left for them?

I'm wondering about that.

Well, you know. Especially in a situation like this. That's one of the issues I mentioned last week. Is that one of the hardest things to deal with? For the church down through the ages has been how to deal with someone who does get carried away.

But comes back and you know those who never come back. Well, okay there, you know, that's not as much of a problem. Well early on the novation schisms and things like that the view of sacramentalism that was a part of it all the rest that stuff.

But how do you deal with that? What do you what do you do with someone who say is is in leadership position in your fellowship right now? They go off after her old camping camping stuff fizzles out eventually and they come back.

How do you handle that situation? What all of the counseling and everything else you're dealing with and How long can a person remain in that kind of a in that kind of an environment? Expressing hatred toward Christ Church and and Christ's people and things like that.

Those are very difficult issues.

You really think it's a situation that's going to come up. Oh. There's no question. There's no question. We don't generally come back. I.

Think that in this situation. Honestly, I think in this situation what you're going to have happen is when when the camping movement collapses. Certainly some of these people may indeed end up out in non island as far as That goes I mean sort of like the more than a million Jehovah's Witnesses Who became witnesses and then since 1974 they just disappeared they they became nothing.

They they're religiously that the religiously burned out. Okay, there will be someone even come to your church. I'm sorry.

Have any of those?

Yeah, I said that's a few but but the majority unfortunately that the polls show that so that the studies have shown that the vast majority of those who became a part of For example Jehovah's Witnesses because of the idea of the end of the world coming right around the corner End up being burned out.

They end up no place. I think it's gonna be a little bit different with this movement of campings people because a While it is tied into end times stuff. It's a theological thing and these people are theologically interested and whether that means they're of the elect or not I don't know but they certainly are going to be a Pastoral issue because there I think eventually there's going to be a number of them that are gonna be coming back and we're gonna have To be dealing with how we deal.

How we handle someone who was who was a part of the Herald camping stuff? They obviously have to be very carefully handled like you don't just say hey, welcome back. You want your Sunday school class back, you know, I mean.

Sadly very. Why is that going in last that you played of his show? That was talking about the fast. Anybody that can take that sort of teaching and just accept it. It's got it. You've got a problem for that person.

Of discernment. Well discernment.

Discernment's lacking all across our land and at this world.

Before you can teach a class you've got to learn right something yourself. Oh, no question about no question. I have to be rehabilitated in about a basic Teaching position like there's no no question about that at all.

I agree a thousand percent.

That's that is what is required. And unfortunately in so many churches You're just so desperate to find anyone who's willing to do anything that the the discernment level is not normally overly high in that situation.

Hey Peter got to go to my break. Thanks a lot for your church. You've got a little bit more right?

I I fully understand. Hey brother press on for the Lord down there. Thanks for calling. Thanks for your call today. All right. God bless to you and we will be taking our second call right after our break here at the bottom of the hour.

And then.

Either your phone calls or we'll move on from there to the Continuation of our examination of page. Patterson certain. We'll be right back.

Critique of False Teaching, Benny Hinn, and the Sufficiency of Scripture

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

I love pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey to this and oh.

Well, it's a pilgrims. I Heard I could hear rich the through the wall going. Whoa, what'd you do there Nellie? It's not like I flew progress. Oh, but that was progress, huh? That's that you know when you when you move the thing down very slowly it's called a fade that's that's that's funny.

Uh-huh. Yeah, it's a fade. In fact now you're now your entire microphone sounds really bad. Yeah, I don't know what's causing that. Aren't you in control of all this stuff? I gotta go now. Bye. It's good to be on the bleeding edge of technology.

Anyway, what was I saying? Oh we um, we had a I Flew southwest and the guy on the way out had a train whistle he played over the over the speaker system the the pilot did and he played all aboard for st. Louis and then when we landed this afternoon or this morning actually one of the Cabin stewards flight attendants.

I grew up there stewardesses. But anyway, one of the flight attendants got on and sang the the Barney song We love you you love us it sure was faster than a bus we hope you liked our hospitality Marry one of us and you fly for free.

So And I so I I asked someone that I happen to know that works for another airline, why can't you guys be funny and She didn't really have an answer for that so there really wasn't anything to do with that.

It's eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Man Just.

Watching stuff and channel here. Let's go to California. Hello, Aaron.

Hello, hottie. Okay. Yes, sir. I I've got some a Few questions relevant to the apologetic interaction we have with our opponents and the first one I don't even think would be necessary if our opponents were a little bit more attentive.

It concerns John 316 and basically just our opponents using whosoever I wouldn't bring it up except it gets brought up so often. And there's something you once said about the word whosoever that it is not in the Greek.

It's just those who believe or so too. Well, I explained.

Because one very nice Opponent of mine only listened to a certain portion of what I said there and decided to try to Use that to rip into me which I've noticed he seems to have disappeared for a while and I I don't know if he's just recharging his batteries or just what but What I said was that the there is no Stand-alone word that means whosoever that the whosoever comes from a certain construction in The language and it is simply saying all the ones doing something hence whoever is doing this action.

So it's all the ones believing. And that to read into that the concept of whosoever as in there is no particularity Is the exact opposite of what the text says the text is particular. It is only the ones believing who have eternal life and it is limiting in in its context and so to read it that way is to read it the exact opposite way of What the text is actually saying?

So yeah, that's that's what I'd expressed that I'm not saying that that that it's a mistranslation I'm not saying that it's just a word. We are supplying. It's coming from the construction itself when you put POS With the with the participle that is that is how it is sometimes rendered in English.

It can be rendered as also all the ones doing X Y or Z.

Right.

Right and and in fact if when when you listen to some very popular preachers Who are speaking on this subject within the context of John 3 16 or whatever else it is? What you hear them do is you hear them say so that whosoever? Believeth in him and if you're going to actually emphasize something in such a way as to Seriously deal with it.