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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.
Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.
If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight, seven. Seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.
Here is James white.
And welcome to the dividing line on this Thursday afternoon back here in Phoenix, Arizona. Woke up this morning in st Louis, it was a little bit a little bit cool in st. Louis this morning. I think it was down in the 20s somewhere with a pretty nice breeze you get a 24 degree temperature with about a 20 mile an hour wind and it's um, I'll keep you awake.
It's what is it here 85 degrees? 85 big degrees just brought up the radar here and guess what nothing there. Nothing there at all. Just wide open 85. It was 87 earlier. Oh, yeah, 85 degrees according to my little thingamabob II down there and.
So I thought it tells me that the summer's coming unfortunately. And I'm not really looking forward to that around here to be perfectly honest with you. But we were back at the Midwest founders conference in st. Louis in Actually first first Southern Baptist Church st. Peter's as I recall is the name and the folks were very very kind to me.
I spoke three times. I spoke Tuesday evening and then yesterday. Around 11 ish and then last evening 630 after the first session on Tuesday. I did an extensive Q &A session and It went for quite some time.
I was I don't know. Maybe it's just because I'm Getting older or something. I don't know when I travel but I'd say Preaching for a full hour and then doing Q &A afterwards after flying and it was st Louis isn't all that bad.
So two and a half three hours, but Boy, I hope all I can all I know is I'm I'm I know they didn't record it. It didn't record that evening that the Q &A sessions. That's probably best actually when you think about and.
But we had some great conversations with folks. Great people there the you know, the founders conference. I've spoken it. I think three of them so far. Yeah, three of them one in Lynchburg one in the Dallas area and in this one.
And I.
It always makes me very Humble. First of all, there are so many people that listen to this program. I could not believe when I asked it was a good group that they said this is the largest group they ever had.
And I asked how many people were familiar with with the website or listen to the dividing line. And I was just I was just shocked at how many people did as just I'll just never get used to that and Really what was really interesting I might as well make this announcement while we're doing it.
It's really rather providential. A number of people talked to me and and there was at least two Three people this this trip and I know there's good people in channel and I've talked to people elsewhere Who have embraced the doctrines of grace and all the things that come with that.
What I mean by that is You know the change and how you view God how you view yourself how you view the church how you view all of those things. They they did so and it's the process started with the Bible answer man broadcast in December of 2003 and the debate between myself and George Bryson and at least between myself and George Bryson and Then that started the process.
Now it wasn't so much interesting enough and the people I've talked to it Wasn't so much just listening to that debate. But what it was was that? They they were bothered by what I said and.
They.
Were expecting a refutation of what I was saying and they didn't get the refutation and So that prompted them to want to find out what the refutation was and so they end up going and getting Geisler's book but they know that I've written a response to Geisler's book and so they read Geisler's book and Then they read the Potter's freedom, and I can't tell you how many people I've talked to especially folks that were in Few still are but many aren't in Calvary chapels.
Who read Geisler's book and they heard they said, you know, I I've heard Geisler on the Bible answer, man I've heard white on the Bible answer man, and you know, they say a lot of same things about Mormonism and stuff like that.
But man, they're obviously a complete loggerheads on this. So I Need to read both of them. And so I am very very very happy to Invite anyone to read chosen but free in the Potter's freedom together. I've just that that's that's great you feel free to do so and I would encourage folks to do so and we've encouraged folks to to do that read them both check them all out and They've done so and end up, you know at founders conferences and the same thing with this.
With the Bible answer and broadcast they they listen to that and they go man Why isn't there why isn't rebuttal being offered? Why isn't why isn't the text being touched here? So the announcement is I was just last night after I spoke.
I was talking with folks and man, I Just been talking for two days. And I was talking with some folks and they're asking could I you know? Could I hear the Bible answer man broadcast because they heard other people talking about?
Yeah, it's first time I had heard about you. Duh-duh-duh-duh-duh and I knew that there had been some discussion about our carrying it and But I didn't know what the status that was. I was like, you know, I I think they're on the web someplace.
But I you know, I just we've thought about carrying them, but I've heard not heard anything about it. It's been a long time. So I don't think we are and I said no so I get back and Here we have an entire supply now of the CDs of the Bible answer man Broadcast from it was December 16th 17th and 18th if I'm recalling correctly 2003 the rather famous read my book debate.
Where when I brought up John chapter 6 and I tried, you know, I tried to present what it was saying and walk through it. Mr. Bryson's response was well, you know read my book and once his book we finally got his book many weeks later Obviously there there wasn't anything about John chapter 6 in it as far as providing any type of exegetical response.
Ironically, that was the same thing that happened with Norman Geisler because when I when I was writing the Potter's freedom I Wrote to dr. Geisler and I asked, you know, it would seem to me that if you're going to be disagreeing with what you call Extreme Calvinism that At least one of the passages that would really really really require a an extensive Response would be John 637 following but there isn't any Discussion of John 637 your book.
I mean it's quoted a couple little times like half of a verse and like there's no exegesis however, and when dr. Geisler back to me said I fully exegeted John chapter 6 in the book and So some of you may recall in fact some people in the channel help with this.
The first edition of chosen but free had no scripture index, well, okay, I'll take that back. It had a scripture index. It had a useless scripture index. It had an incomplete scripture index and I would actually buy a gift certificate online to a book service and I would send it to somebody in channel to basically pay them to sit down with the book.
I knew who had the book sit down with the book and carefully scan every single page. And then send me a complete scripture index of Any appearance of that particular passage in the entirety of the book so I could make sure Even though I had read the book very thoroughly myself.
I could make sure I was missing nothing I was I was if I was saying dr. Geisler says X Y or Z about this passage I wanted to know every single place where he touched it and So that's what we did. I had people helping me in channel do that.
And so I quoted in my letter that I wrote back to dr. Geisler, this is before the powers freedom came out I quoted every single reference to that passage and Toto in the book and said there's There's no There's no exegesis here.
What you know, this is all that you said and I want to I want to interact with you on this, but there's nothing for me to interact with and The only thing I got back was a postcard that said if you publish I will respond that was all I got back and So the the same thing happened in that situation where I'm trying to well, where is it?
Well, no, it's it's it's actually not there anywhere. It's not there George Bryson read my book. There's nothing in your book to read about this, you know. You just you just can't find that kind of stuff on John John chapter 6.
So I am being told by the powers that be. That's interesting that we are going to be offering a a bundle. And it will involve for 45 big smackers $45 you get the amazing grace DVD. That's over four hours you get debating Calvinism the book and You'll be getting the three CRI programs.
That's three CDs. So so the amazing grace DVD debating Calvinism the book and the three CRI of CDs the three programs because it's one program per.
Hour and.
For $45, that's $10 over the current prices and our current prices are are discounted on all those things. We can discount there are some things You can't discount you just not allowed to do it. But anyways, that's that's going to be up on the on the site I imagine we'll put on the front page somewhere just to make sure that people can find that but If you've been looking for it, you'll be able to track it down and listen.
Yeah $10 savings. Okay under our current prices, you know, I think most folks know what that means. So anyways, that'll be up there. Take a look at it. And we've had a lot of people who have Well you said over But it says savings over communicates to people that they're saving money.
We're not we're not pulling a Benny Hinn here. Okay? They've got all figured out don't don't worry I was watching by the way, I was given very thankfully from Mr. Gatelman Kirk Gatelman gave me the DVDs of the Benny Hinn expose a that I missed on Dateline.
But he also had the Canadian one and he gave them to me he was at the founders conference as well, and I don't know if I should have said that but he was and He gave me those DVDs and I watched them on my computer this morning As I was waiting for the flight out of st. Louis and oh my goodness This time they had they had financial documentation concerning Concerning this guy and They they have been doing a quote-unquote crusade these crusades bring in I Sound like an average of like 350 to 350 ,000 to half a million dollars Per crusade which is which is just oh great, which is just great and They were flying back from I think it wasn't Switzerland it was somewhere in Scandinavia and they had layovers in Milan and London Excuse me, but Milan is not exactly between where you were and where you're going.
That's not really a layover and they stayed in the most expensive largest hotel suite in all of Europe and it cost what was it ten thousand eight hundred dollars per night I Think was ten thousand eight hundred dollars per night.
He was tipping people a thousand bucks, and it's like wow This you know It reminds me of the of the the time again in st. Louis when I was having a dinner with Dave Hunt a Number of years ago his book had just come out and I was sitting right next to him.
And we were talking about Benny Hinn the whole group was talking about Benny Hinn and the wacky things that Benny Hinn says and you know the fact this man is such a glowing charlatan that it anybody who would open their wallet to that man is A complete fool.
I'm sorry. That's the only way to put it the man's So out there that if you can't tell that that guy is is is a charlatan. Then you you have the discernment of a shoelace. Okay. That's just all there is to it the guy is Completely so out there.
It's not even funny, and so we were talking about that. We're talking about one some of one of his wacky teachings, and you know it's funny Let me just mention this he was teaching wacky stuff doctrinally before he got into all the money stuff.
And then interesting how that how that went people don't care about the doctrinal stuff and so now they're They've been giving money to a guy who's off. You know spending all his time and money you know his his his suits that have the ministry logo embroidered in 24 karat gold thread and all the rest is wonderful fun stuff and But the bad doctrine came first and but people don't care about that, so now you've got all the rest of the bad stuff along with it.
But anyway, he was I don't even like talking about Benny. That stuff just just drives me nuts I I just got distracted by something in channel. I guess coach came in and Coach has a little baby a little baby.
It was just born. I guess Just a couple days ago, and So we all need to be thanked all need to pray for coach because coach will not be sleeping For quite some time and sleep deprivation is a is a pretty.
It's it's God's way of getting us back. It really is and it's preparing us for when they become teenagers. And they're out driving around on their own or something like that, and then we get sleep deprivation again.
That's sort of how it works, but Anyway. It was it with the the DVDs were fascinating. I enjoyed oh, I'm sorry, but you need a bit of so I was sitting next to Dave Hunt and he's everybody's talking about this stuff and Finally Dave just just said and and honestly he just said I Just don't understand how anyone can believe that man and I leaned over to him, and I think he's the only one that heard me say it.
I leaned over to him said it's told of gravity Dave. And he started to laugh and then realized what I had said and stopped laughing because he had just come out with what love is This and I hadn't I hadn't actually read all the neat fun wonderful stuff.
He was gonna say about me At that particular point in time so Just one of those wonderful little things that happens in life eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. There's much more.
I can say about the conference. Oh, I will be. How do I handle this. I just got right before the program I got the email to the fella who's making available the CDs of the conference but I got the feeling that He's not got a huge production facility type situation.
So I think what I should do is I should write to him and sort of like warn him before I you know. Do you have a URL that I could send people to? Do you really want you know this many emails are you you know?
That and sort of check it out with him first and then because the the messages were on important subjects. It was on the sufficiency of Scripture and I had been asked to speak about that before they ever heard the book.
So it wasn't well, you've written a book on the sufficient scripture. Why don't you come do your normal thing and I did not do my normal thing? None of the sermons I delivered none of the three sermons I delivered over the past couple days.
Had I done anything Like them really before well, maybe last night a little bit out of Acts 20, but especially the first night and Then yesterday morning on the parable the soils Very very different. I really felt constrained to go a different direction and to address pastors and and Very new new stuff new for me.
Anyways, it's not new stuff. It's old stuff, but So it might be useful, especially if you know someone who I Don't know struggling a little bit with the sufficiency of Scripture and and things like that in the in the ministry.
It might be something you might want to get hold of so I will put that information in the blog but I want to sort of talk with the guy first and Find out about so let's um, let's take a couple of our phone calls.
I've got so once again, I have brother Patterson queued up ready to go but haven't gotten around to actually doing so and Unfortunately The man across the way needs to start providing me with line numbers because You just say somebody has a question on something.
There's multiple lines blinking how am I supposed to know which ones which it's I can just sort of go eeny meeny miny moe and I do I don't know so Gotta start doing that putting a little line number there.
So we know what in the world we're talking about let's go all the way down to The land that has a city called an area called Oakland, right? That's what you call it down there Oakland, right Peter Hello, Peter Oakland Oakland.
Yes. Yeah instead of we call it Auckland but How is that New Zealand. Well, that's funny. Well, don't you don't they call it Oakland those have Auckland? Okay, that's a it's a it sounds like the reason I said that is a fellow went down that direction They kept talking about this place called Oakland and he totally confused him because he was going how do you people know about, California?
Because yeah, yeah, you know he had seen the the word spelled out But he had no idea Oakland that's where the A's play that's you know, and and it's one of those misconnection cultural misconnection stuff.
So anyways, what's up down there?
Look, you know, I just listening to last Monday's program I've been getting. And problems I've had in our own church as you I've probably shared with you before Down here in Sydney, which I was going to for 28, right?
And I think that's a problem with a lot of the churches. I you've got that book, but I think that it's got a lot to do with it. When I started off I said disappeared my message. Didn't I as far as yes.
Yes on the level of the apostasy. Yeah, that is the same thing. Just another thing. Yeah, I think you find that the problem is but the wrong church government in the first Place not a biblical church government is responsible for a lot of this because people left out as you've mentioned before people come to Pay and so they don't teach the truth.
I want to hear like they're itching ears and. So there's no no word of God. There's no real teaching. There's no spiritual dead place and they're run by one person up the top. And there's no and I think that what do you reckon that that's the reason why these people are dredge Christians.
And it's worrying because it's actually about New Zealand. Hmm, and just leave the people like behind the church from when they're not getting anything. It's a church. They're not getting any real Christian.
So if they turn or something.
Spiritual thing. Yeah. Well, you know, I spoke with a number of folks this past weekend at the founders conference and one of the issues that that came up was what happens when you are in a church situation and you have The wrong kind of government.
It is ironic though I think Harold camping believes in the right form of government at least used to as far as a plurality of elders, but Obviously doesn't. Well, yeah, no kidding, but he doesn't believe that anymore.
I mean, what what good is that? But one of the things that they were that they were discussing was the fact that Trying to bring Reformation and a more biblical Perspective on the gospel to a church that has does not have a biblical form of church government Is extremely difficult because what you end up having in it, for example a lot of especially Southern Baptist churches.
But Baptist churches in general is you have what are called deacon boards now everybody's heard of them but where in the world did you get that and These deacons. They don't have the qualifications of an elder in the scriptures but they are put in a position of being de facto elders and they hold to to to their traditions with a tenacity that is just beyond all measure and even if the the the pastor quote-unquote the pastor ends up being a hireling the pastor ends up being a person who is who serves at the pleasure of this.
Deacon board in essence, and if you know what if he teaches anything other than what I want exactly.
He'll be he'll be looking for a new job. And so you it's a very very very common theme that you run into over and over and over again. And it's very discouraging to the people that are that are involved with it or attempting to to bring about some type of.
Biblical.
Reformation revival and so yeah, it is it all it is it all comes together and I've addressed this before it's it's hard to get people overly excited. Concerning the issue of church government, but when you think about it We're talking about isn't isn't Christ the one who should order his own church.
Shouldn't we care about that?
I.
Not just that I think there's only one way the church is going to function that if Christ is the head of the church and if we don't have that and. These other people have got all this ammunition to throw around like Harold camping and the Jehovah's Witnesses and their people will listen because they say Yeah, what they're saying is partly right.
Partly, right? Yeah. Get away with all sorts of garbage after that because people say all this going obviously understand.
He has his yeah, he has his followers and he makes a connection with them and Those folks as I pointed out out of Acts chapter 20 It says these these people who arise up from amongst you do not spare the flock and that means Heresy is not a victimless crime and the the sheep that are that are carved out of the flock are Destroyed in the process.
It is it is an ugly thing to see These people who for example have followed after Harold camping when when that stuff all falls apart. And there's nothing left there. What are they going to do? Where are they going to go?
What's what's left for them?
I'm wondering about that.
Well, you know. Especially in a situation like this. That's one of the issues I mentioned last week. Is that one of the hardest things to deal with? For the church down through the ages has been how to deal with someone who does get carried away.
But comes back and you know those who never come back. Well, okay there, you know, that's not as much of a problem. Well early on the novation schisms and things like that the view of sacramentalism that was a part of it all the rest that stuff.
But how do you deal with that? What do you what do you do with someone who say is is in leadership position in your fellowship right now? They go off after her old camping camping stuff fizzles out eventually and they come back.
How do you handle that situation? What all of the counseling and everything else you're dealing with and How long can a person remain in that kind of a in that kind of an environment? Expressing hatred toward Christ Church and and Christ's people and things like that.
Those are very difficult issues.
You really think it's a situation that's going to come up. Oh. There's no question. There's no question. We don't generally come back. I.
Think that in this situation. Honestly, I think in this situation what you're going to have happen is when when the camping movement collapses. Certainly some of these people may indeed end up out in non island as far as That goes I mean sort of like the more than a million Jehovah's Witnesses Who became witnesses and then since 1974 they just disappeared they they became nothing.
They they're religiously that the religiously burned out. Okay, there will be someone even come to your church. I'm sorry.
Have any of those?
Yeah, I said that's a few but but the majority unfortunately that the polls show that so that the studies have shown that the vast majority of those who became a part of For example Jehovah's Witnesses because of the idea of the end of the world coming right around the corner End up being burned out.
They end up no place. I think it's gonna be a little bit different with this movement of campings people because a While it is tied into end times stuff. It's a theological thing and these people are theologically interested and whether that means they're of the elect or not I don't know but they certainly are going to be a Pastoral issue because there I think eventually there's going to be a number of them that are gonna be coming back and we're gonna have To be dealing with how we deal.
How we handle someone who was who was a part of the Herald camping stuff? They obviously have to be very carefully handled like you don't just say hey, welcome back. You want your Sunday school class back, you know, I mean.
Sadly very. Why is that going in last that you played of his show? That was talking about the fast. Anybody that can take that sort of teaching and just accept it. It's got it. You've got a problem for that person.
Of discernment. Well discernment.
Discernment's lacking all across our land and at this world.
Before you can teach a class you've got to learn right something yourself. Oh, no question about no question. I have to be rehabilitated in about a basic Teaching position like there's no no question about that at all.
I agree a thousand percent.
That's that is what is required. And unfortunately in so many churches You're just so desperate to find anyone who's willing to do anything that the the discernment level is not normally overly high in that situation.
Hey Peter got to go to my break. Thanks a lot for your church. You've got a little bit more right?
I I fully understand. Hey brother press on for the Lord down there. Thanks for calling. Thanks for your call today. All right. God bless to you and we will be taking our second call right after our break here at the bottom of the hour.
And then.
Either your phone calls or we'll move on from there to the Continuation of our examination of page. Patterson certain. We'll be right back.
Such a rare. Today many stop strong and true quickly fall away.
Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.
In Their book the same-sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject. Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.
Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.
The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or Alaska. The unspoiled land of nature and immensity both in its realities and its possibilities.
Alaska can stir our hearts and minds like no other place on earth. Join us this summer for the 2005 Alpha-Omega ministries Alaskan cruise as we cruise the inside passage to the great land of Alaska with dr James White and Christian recording artist Steve camp as they explore the great doctrine of solo scriptura.
For our guests the journey north is an odyssey of glorious landscapes and majestic wildlife as we sail on the luxury five-star Sun princess by towering glaciers into some of the most Remarkable points on earth.
All this and a price is beginning at six hundred twenty four dollars per person. Plus port taxes and fees half the price of other offerings to Alaska with other groups. Contact us today at a omen org or at eight seven seven SOV cruise.
Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul the second to recognize the Virgin Mary as co-redeemer with Christ. Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion.
In his book Mary another redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven.
Viewed as co-mediator with Christ and now recognized as co-redeemer by many in the Roman Catholic Church Mary another redeemer is fresh insight into the woman The Bible calls a blessed among women and an invitation to single-minded devotion to God's truth.
You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another redeemer at a omen org.
This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.
The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.
On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 2 6 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.
Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.
I love pilgrims progress. It's not an easy way. It's a journey to this and oh.
Well, it's a pilgrims. I Heard I could hear rich the through the wall going. Whoa, what'd you do there Nellie? It's not like I flew progress. Oh, but that was progress, huh? That's that you know when you when you move the thing down very slowly it's called a fade that's that's that's funny.
Uh-huh. Yeah, it's a fade. In fact now you're now your entire microphone sounds really bad. Yeah, I don't know what's causing that. Aren't you in control of all this stuff? I gotta go now. Bye. It's good to be on the bleeding edge of technology.
Anyway, what was I saying? Oh we um, we had a I Flew southwest and the guy on the way out had a train whistle he played over the over the speaker system the the pilot did and he played all aboard for st. Louis and then when we landed this afternoon or this morning actually one of the Cabin stewards flight attendants.
I grew up there stewardesses. But anyway, one of the flight attendants got on and sang the the Barney song We love you you love us it sure was faster than a bus we hope you liked our hospitality Marry one of us and you fly for free.
So And I so I I asked someone that I happen to know that works for another airline, why can't you guys be funny and She didn't really have an answer for that so there really wasn't anything to do with that.
It's eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.
Man Just.
Watching stuff and channel here. Let's go to California. Hello, Aaron.
Hello, hottie. Okay. Yes, sir. I I've got some a Few questions relevant to the apologetic interaction we have with our opponents and the first one I don't even think would be necessary if our opponents were a little bit more attentive.
It concerns John 316 and basically just our opponents using whosoever I wouldn't bring it up except it gets brought up so often. And there's something you once said about the word whosoever that it is not in the Greek.
It's just those who believe or so too. Well, I explained.
Because one very nice Opponent of mine only listened to a certain portion of what I said there and decided to try to Use that to rip into me which I've noticed he seems to have disappeared for a while and I I don't know if he's just recharging his batteries or just what but What I said was that the there is no Stand-alone word that means whosoever that the whosoever comes from a certain construction in The language and it is simply saying all the ones doing something hence whoever is doing this action.
So it's all the ones believing. And that to read into that the concept of whosoever as in there is no particularity Is the exact opposite of what the text says the text is particular. It is only the ones believing who have eternal life and it is limiting in in its context and so to read it that way is to read it the exact opposite way of What the text is actually saying?
So yeah, that's that's what I'd expressed that I'm not saying that that that it's a mistranslation I'm not saying that it's just a word. We are supplying. It's coming from the construction itself when you put POS With the with the participle that is that is how it is sometimes rendered in English.
It can be rendered as also all the ones doing X Y or Z.
Right.
Right and and in fact if when when you listen to some very popular preachers Who are speaking on this subject within the context of John 3 16 or whatever else it is? What you hear them do is you hear them say so that whosoever? Believeth in him and if you're going to actually emphasize something in such a way as to Seriously deal with it.
What you'd have to do is say so that whosoever Believes in him, but that's not what they're doing. That's not the that's not they're not following the text that point there there this is this is a classic example of isa Jesus reading into the text a concept that is not contained within the the original words of the little context of The writing but it it certainly preaches and when you've heard somebody do that long enough.
And when you when you've heard someone who's done that and that person happens to be the greatest spiritual Authority in in your life, maybe the only real spiritual authority you've ever known. It can be very Frightening to consider the possibility that at that point they are Shall we say someone entrapped in their own? Tradition and are not accurately representing the text.
There's no there's a reason for that. I've I've commented on that myself. You look at At Norman Geisler. It is very clear to me that he developed his Understanding of why he does not believe in Calvinism probably back in seminary and I have seen no evidence from his written works that he has ever been seriously challenged or or just taking the time himself to Seriously think through the conclusions he came to then instead you go into a defensive mode, and you're just constantly defending the position that you adopted a long long time ago and that seems to be the case with a large number of these folks certainly Dave Hunt has a long history of Having rejected Calvinism.
It's just only recently he's gotten really you know gone off the end about it. But but he's always rejected it, and I don't see any evidence. I mean let me hunt an excellent example because We have the radio debate that he and I did where he said he'd never read any of the Reformers.
So it's really easy to take what he said there compared to what he's saying today now that he claims No, no more about Calvinism the 90 of Calvinists do and is he making any better arguments today that he did then the answer really?
Is no he he isn't so. No, they're not listening that's the whole point they they have their position and I've seen it happen in talking with lots of folks before when you encounter The authority of tradition as soon as you bring forth the Word of God in light of that this this dull look comes.
It's like you could have just spoken that in Swahili. They wouldn't have even noticed that you did it in Swahili because they're not Listening to what you're saying and you can try to find other ways of of communicating.
You can try to vary the examples are using you can try to vary the text you're approaching you you can try to say you Know this is important because of X Y or Z, but in the final analysis you can't force anyone To to listen seriously to what you're saying.
You can't force anyone to be serious in examining the text of Scripture. It's just it can't be done as frustrating as it might be to hear people repeat the same old tired worn-out.
Refuted 14 ,000 times before assertions, that's just all there is to it. What's really disturbing is when I recently decided this. Asked some of the people I've been talking for the 200 hours some people have only given a dozen hours.
Tell them you know if you ask me Do I know what you believe I can tell you and I go right down. Jove a witness on Michael. Are the Archangels to you? Etc. Etc. Etc. And I asked them I've talked to you with this.
Like for a very long time. Can you tell me what I believe you tell me? And almost no one I've ever I've talked to about this and actually after that no.
Well, it's disturbing but it is it is it's certainly it's expected simply because the fact that that attitude of What drives certain people to be consistent in their beliefs? Is again something that is both unusual in a lot of evangelicalism a B.
I think it's I think it's a spiritual issue. I think it it People need to understand that God is not glorified by mushy thinking give an example when I first started beginning back in my first or second year seminary to Adopt the the proper terminology to express myself on these issues.
Let's put it that way I was speaking to a fellow student in Seminary with me about these things and and he very honestly a nice guy I mean honestly a very nice guy a big heart for the Lord. No question about it, but he honestly said to me once he said the main problem I have with reformed theology and Calvinism and the whole argument is The fact that I don't think you can have that level of certainty.
I I think God Has not given us that level of Revelation to where we can be certain about these things and I think we lose all the mystery. And I've you've probably heard a number of people say that but this was this was someone That I knew very well, and he was basically saying that's why I don't like it.
It's too clean. It's too consistent. There's not enough quote-unquote mystery in it now of course thing. It's an unbiblical definition the term mystery, but that's another issue for him. That was an argument against Calvinism was that it was consistent and For myself I I obviously the opposite is is the case the idea of holding to Purposeful inconsistency I cannot see how that is in any way shape or form Glorifying to God and It really ends up destroying all all Revelation and and certainty of knowledge of the gospel and and the doctrine of Trinity and everything else really when you start thinking about it.
But you realize the inconsistencies with the Arminian position are what are what the atheists and you know people with atheist talk I'd say that's what they go after and they rip rip them to shreds. I know.
Frank I remember I've forgotten the man's name because it's been over 20 years now. But there was an author for Prometheus books. And I've probably got the book around here if I just dig to the library far enough.
There was an author for Prometheus books and Prometheus the large atheist publisher and He wrote a book this would have been about 86 or so right around 20 years ago, and He I was on with him once or twice on the Tom Likas show when Tom Likas was here still here in the in the Phoenix area before he went over to LA and became a notorious shock jock and One of the things was fascinating about this guy is he wasn't a formerly religious person.
And.
He was he was really sort of just a fairly scholarly guy and the thesis of his book was That it's obvious beyond question that the authors of the Bible believed What most modern evangelicals don't and that was that that God? created all things and he created time and he he Chooses whom he's gonna be merciful to in other words.
He he said I just look at the Bible and the Bible teaches what these Calvinists talk about. Got it. So why are all these other people running around? What are they embarrassed about why not deal with it?
And it was interesting because when I came on with him, I believed that and so he was like hey, you know, this is great. I'm actually going to talk to someone who actually believes the Bible he could respect me.
He couldn't respect the person who was Throwing all this spin at the scriptures because he saw it. He didn't believe it, but he could at least Respect me for being willing to defend what the Bible actually said.
So it was interesting to be on with with him because he's just coming from an atheist perspective and saying How can you argue this? It's all through the Bible from beginning to end, you know. He'd go through the Old Testament and all that stuff and and it was it was interesting.
So yeah, there's no question. That's It having sound theology is the foundation of doing sound apologetics as well and.
Would encourage folks if you do what I've done in in some of my apologetics classes. And that is if you really want to see, you know, some people say, you know, this stuff just doesn't matter. You know, we're all on the same side saying the same thing.
Well, all right. Let me ask you to take the time. To listen to the Bonson Stein debate and how Greg Bonson debated Gordon Stein on the subject existence of God and how he answered questions how even answered question because Gordon Stein asked him personal questions about his Belief in God and and and Greg Bonson gave wonderful responses to that.
But he also gave a devastating philosophical critique of the position the Gordon Stein had. But it was one based upon the necessity of who the Christian God was in Scripture compare that With the pretty nice production It's on VHS and DVD of the debate between William Lane Craig and Frank Zindler now Frank Zindler somebody I know I had encountered him back in the 80s.
He's a geologist. He's an atheist. He pretends to have a lot of knowledge of the text of Scripture back in those days. We actually had a newsletter that we produced many many many many moons ago and There are some letters going back and forth on textual critical issues Between myself and Frank Zindler, so they're back in the archives someplace something we have to drag all those things out.
Scan them and post them on the website. Just simply for historical reasons. But anyway Zindler not much of a challenge for William Lane Craig. Okay, really. Not really much of a challenge for anyone to be perfectly honest with you.
But but during the audience Questioning some people through some questions at at Craig and it was Fascinating because again William Lane Craig brilliant man brilliant scholar, but he's a Mullenist. He believes in middle knowledge.
He is in Arminian in his soteriology. And if you want to see where that theology deeply impacts apologetics you're gonna see it by comparing those two debates and the fact that in the one you have a person proclaiming that it is Absolutely necessary that the Christian God exists that he exists without question.
Over against the argumentation of William Lane Craig who says that the preponderance of the evidence points to the greater probability of the existence of God. Now folks, those are not the same statements.
Saying that the preponderance of the evidence points to the greater probability of the existence of God is Not how the Apostles proclaimed the resurrection. They did not say it is really You know, we've got a 55 Probability rating on the resurrection here.
This is good. You know, that's that's not what they did that that's not the apostolic proclamation and Yet that's what you're reduced to if your systematic theology is so minimized and so unbiblical and derived from philosophical considerations rather than exegetical considerations that it just can't support any larger edifice than that and It really does make a difference.
So anyhow It is interesting to compare and contrast those two of those two perspectives. All right, thank you doc. All right. Thanks for calling. God bless. All right. Bye. Bye.
Alrighty.
Oops, there you go. Thank you. I just didn't want to have the cut thing. That's I got the last time which I Imagine you can do that better than I can because you can pot it down before you do the thing.
So well there, you know, how many weeks now have I had this screen up in front of me? With the the Patterson sermon at the exact same point the entire time It has not moved. We got what two minutes at one time.
Got through about two minutes and it's been sitting here Since before I reinstalled Windows because I'm not exactly sure where we ended. I was going to start at 16 minutes. It was somewhere around 16 minutes something like that and it's been sitting here Consistently ever since then I was however, I should mention this.
Was given some some tapes While I was at the founders conference and there's one of especially that I want to listen to and if it's what I think it is we might be mp3 in that baby and Cueing her up for for next week's dividing line if it's what I what I think it is I don't know.
I'm really not sure. So what I'm gonna do here is I'm gonna see if I can get just a minute or two of this sermon in. So at least I know where we ended this time Before we run out of time the program today and see if we can gain something from that once.
They always say it.
Guarantees that once a man is born again He will never ever ever forfeit that salvation. Let's see if that's true. Look beginning In verse 31 and let's see what happens in Romans 8. What shall we say then to these things if God be for us who can be against us.
Now immediately I can tell.
That's going to be very very difficult To start and stop this because we're right at this point we're going into the the issue of The golden chain and Some of you might remember back To what was it to.
I think it'll be three summers ago this summer when There was a a sermon on Romans 9 that had been Broadcast shall we say on national radio. And it wasn't Paige Patterson. And we took the time to respond to it and it was very useful to allow it to do it slowly enough to hear where people would correctly interpret the text and At the same time here when all of a sudden the exegetical methodology they use to correctly interpret the text Regarding for example justification.
This was yes. It was Adrian Rogers. He when he talked about when Adrian Rogers talked about justification. It was great. It was wonderful. It was fantastic but the same exegetical methodology then was not applied once it ran into tradition and that is such a valuable thing to see and To avoid obviously, I think it's a horrible thing when you we mistreat God's Word that way.
But it's something that happens all the time. So something tells me we're not get too far here because the the music's coming up in two minutes.
But let's get as far as we can if God elects us who's going to cast the negative vote. You also did not spare his own son But delivered him up for us all how shall he not with him also freely give us all things.
Okay, now this is actually right after the golden chain, but Immediately you're all at least well if you're a regular listen to this program you're going. Now you've got a comment on that if you've if you've wrestled with that text and You know that he says who gave himself for us How shall he not with him freely give us all things.
Now, we've already heard in months past Certain assertions about the extent of the atonement in this sermon and so if the giving here is sacrificial which it clearly is and The us is everybody Then how do you explain freely give with him us all things?
How do you do that I? Mean you'd have to say yes, God has has given to every Unregenerate individual all the blessings all the blessings of spiritual spiritual blessings in heavenly places That he gives to the elect.
They just don't choose to exercise them. They just don't choose to appropriate them. I guess that'd be the only way you could have to address that.
But talk about bringing something in from outside the text who shall bring a charge against God is God's elect. Anybody gonna bring a charge against God's elect.
Okay, but doesn't that? Phrase right there. Identify who the us is. Who is the us for whom the son was given who is the us to whom all things have been given with him it is? God's elect. Is that not clearly.
What is being said. It certainly sounds like it is to me. And it's very important again. Just on an exegetical level and if and if you could have give-and-take if it wasn't just one side. Talking at the other side and the other side talking back, and that's why at least at least I play what they say.
You know I get as close to having an actual conversation as I can get. But it's still not a conversation because at this point you you would say wait. Could you please explain? In your system how it is that Paul can speak this way.
But unfortunately we don't get a lot of those conversations so anyway. We will continue on with that at some point in time. We got 43 seconds 16 minutes and 43 seconds. Someone write that down. I'm gonna write down myself.
We got 43 at this rate. We will finish in the year 2011 but we'll Go back and string them all together. Thanks for listening to the buying line today. God bless.
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