The Kindle, and Many Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white So so should we start now or ten minutes? The dividing line will begin one minute ago

The dividing line will begin Look, I know you're replacing me. I will not go easy quietly.

That's I will begin For those who do that have any idea why don't we start the program this way

Because you're listening to the podcast didn't remember there are people who listen to the podcast We have no idea what goes on before the program.

They miss all the fun and games. But yes, we have ordered the replacement computer for The two computers that make this program

Possible and thanks to all those who made that a possibility as well But evidently the computer knows that it's eyes are numbered go out the door kicking and screaming

Well, that's that's what you get when you when you put a bunch of professionals together in one room we wouldn't know anything about that but Remember these were put together.

We called at the time bailing wire duct tape and chewing gum Electronics man, you go up there and part it together and put it together and hey the one in my office still 24 7

How many years now? I bet you that was like 2003. We put that down probably fact I think that's actually its second motherboard.

I think the first yeah, it was 800 megahertz. Yeah, something like that And it's still run same drives.

It's amazing. So anyway, no one really is overly excited about our car You know, I actually got a phone call a message on my phone machine last week from the computer

Well from a gentleman that felt that we needed to take the word live out of the podcast portion

Oh, oh you mean edit it out each time? Yeah. Oh Well, okay So that he would know that the podcast wasn't live

I'm not gonna say a word about that I'm just you really shouldn't have told me about that and I'm back the entire world that in fact

I'm gonna go now you should go now and and screen that next call. That would be A good thing.

Hey, welcome to the dividing line on the 22nd of December 2009 and if you're listening live, it's live and if you're not listening live, it's not

Put that in there for anyone who might be confused about the situation anyway

I'm just sort of You know We couldn't do this if we were like on networks and stuff like that to where you know, you have hard breaks and you only have a certain amount of time and It's it's it's a whole lot easier to just recognize that people don't mind when

Rich and I talk to each other once in a while I'm on one side of the office.

He's on he's on the other anyhow last do on the program today.

I have Some comments I would like to make on a debate that I had not heard that evidently took place last year between Dennis Prager Dinesh D'Souza and Christopher Hitchens I got to listen to it while writing yesterday and therefore wish to make some comments

But I'd like to start off with something really practical Lane and channel was mentioning that his parents had

Purchased him a Amazon Kindle, which is very nice and I Utilize my

Kindle all the time and it's got a new cover for it because I used the standard cover but when you travel as much as I do you need a zipper cover to protect it a little bit better and I also got a light for it because if you have not used a

Kindle, it is not a backlit device and If you're going to want to read in the dark, you're going to want to get a light for it.

So I got a light for it For those who are not familiar with it the Amazon Kindle. There's a number of digital readers out there now

But the Kindle is far and away got the advantage over the others for the simple reason it's connected to Amazon and Amazon has become the source of digital material books

Etc, etc. I mean it's just so easy to use and They're fast

Reliable, they've got great prices this way it is, you know, I mean when somebody has put together a great business model

There's no reason to say anything else. So You can with an

Amazon Kindle Well, I give an example as I was going out to debate Dan Barker the first time as I was getting on the plane

I wanted to get a work on a basic introduction to logic to review the various Laws of logic rules of logic just just for a review on the flight out

We were already we're already doing the pre -boarding When I fired up my Kindle It's a wireless device you do not pay a monthly charge for it and no

I don't get any kickbacks to this by the way Went into the Kindle store found the exact book

I wanted and Said buy it. I left it on stuck it back in my bag

Got on the plane sat down pulled my Kindle back out and the book was already there

It was delivered just that quickly The main reason that I use a

Kindle is a I can carry 80 90 books in it That I can sort of pick and choose what

I want to be reading on and it weighs Very little and therefore gets through TSA much easier

Than carrying a big bag of books with me So for the traveler, there's just nothing better but I am also now 47 years of age and That means this thing called presbyopia eventually catches up with you, which has nothing to do with the mode of baptism

That's to do I could just see some people going what what James why just became a

Presbyterian what? Presbyopia obviously refers to What I can't stand is that where the

Presbyterian sprinkle of a be really far away far away It's on the Presbyterian is presbyopia because he has to baptize the baby at arm's length to see what he's doing

And the Baptist has to baptize someone and wear something at arm's length to see they're doing that's right It's obviously when your eyes

Get to that point where? Things close up don't look as good as they used to And man people have started using really small fonts, especially on like pill bottles my goodness

That's like 2 .4, and I couldn't have read that when I was 16 let alone now. It's ridiculous, but anyhow

That is one of the main reasons to get a Kindle at age 40 or so Is do the fact that you can not only adjust the font size?

But it's just simply easier on the eyes than anything else. I've seen it is just that that nice But then

I discovered the real reason to get a Kindle And this is why I want to take a few moments here at the beginning and talk about this and we'll go to our calls

And I've got the Hitchin stuff And I've if I can get chance to respond to someone who took on John MacArthur on a world net daily today

I'll try to get to that too. We'll see but I Have discovered just a trim this this is really what makes the

Kindle a tremendous benefit for me a Few months ago, and I mentioned this in the blog

I may have mentioned on the program. I don't recall You all keep hearing me here say things well,

I listened to this on a ride Now if it's something like a debate, then you can understand why how

I did that I download an mp3 file or I found something on YouTube download the video file strip the audio from it and put it into an iPod

Nano Which is what I ride with now because the iPod Nano has the ability to speed up what you're listening to you

So you can listen to it even faster. You can get three hours worth of lecture From a class on iTunes you or three hours worth of debate something like that into about two hours and and 10 10 2 hours 15 minutes worth of time

While you're on a nice long ride That's I think a really good way of using using your time staying healthy and doing all your studying all at the same time

But the Kindle has made that even a greater opportunity Because the

Kindle will read Anything you can put on it now you can send to your own Kindle you can send

Word documents PDF documents to the Kindle and So that includes anything you can get in Word or PDF format

The Kindle will read it for you one day. I was sitting there and I had a book review due for the CRI journal And all sudden it struck me.

Wait a minute. I I've got this book in Kindle format so I could have the

Kindle read it with the digital voice It's it's it's just like all digital voices Sometimes it mispronounces something but it's a very good digital voice.

You don't have a bunch of different voices You can choose from it's just one but it's a good understandable clear digital voice

I said wait a minute if I can listen to that in my earphones, I can plug that into my

Mac and I can fire up a free audio recording program that I have and I can record anything that I could put on my

Kindle Into mp3 format or any other format on my Mac, which means any book

Document PDF Word document anything else that I can put on the Kindle. I can listen to while I'm writing

Now, I'm not sure how many titles they now have on Amazon on Kindle It's I think it's over 300 ,000 now

It had been down the hundred and fifties or something like that But it's becoming more and more common to be able to get a book in the

Kindle format, but archive org internet archive Just came out where they have taken all of their documents books

Google books all sorts of stuff like that and they're all available in Kindle now 1 .8

million texts available for free in Kindle format which means that's 1 .8

million texts that can be put onto your iPod to be listened to While you are doing other things

So that is a I don't know that that kind of Capacity and availability just simply was not

Even on the on the the radar screen only a decade ago But there it is and I don't see that trend reversing itself anytime in the future.

And so If you're if you're looking at so the things to give to people to help them

Make better use of their time That's what I've got to do people. I said, I just don't know how you can address all these things

I think you study all these things. I've got to redeem the time I have to exercise a lot to stay to stay in shape.

It's just the way, you know genetics or genetics That's the way it is. I eat like a bird, but I still got exercise like everything or I'll look like I don't know what

So I've got to spend a lot of time out on that bike and that's what keeps me healthy. I feel better I speak better.

I think better I write better when I'm when I'm pursuing a goal so I've found a way to redeem all of that time and That's when

I do so much of the study You look at my iPod right now. I've got introduction to Buddhism on there iTunes you you can get anything off of iTunes you these days both

RTS and Covenant Seminary Have a lot of their classes on iTunes you you can listen to those classes I've listened to an entire series on the

Crusades about to do a second whole series on the Crusades You know, I've got lectures from from future

Muslim opponents and debate and so on so forth. It's just a great way to do things and so I Just mentioned that for people because I've had a lot of people say well, you know,

I've heard about this Kindle Well, you know about the Kindle. Well, it's an extremely useful device. No two ways about it.

So with that I Have lots to get to today, but since we have filled up the phone lines right off the start let's go ahead and get to them and let's talk with Rology in Oklahoma.

Hi. Hi, dr. White. This is actually Rology from rollers all blog. Yes, sir Channel, how you doing? I didn't know how you pronounce that.

I you know, oftentimes. I don't even know how either Okay, well

I've seen I've seen the name obviously from the beggars all James one's Blog, so good to have you with us.

Thank you. My question today is on philosophical Torah I'm in a debate with an Eastern Orthodox guy on the topic and kind of In other blog posts that he's doing sort of surrounding the topic.

He's been bringing up various early fathers like Ignatius Justin Martyr Pauly Carp and and and the diddy came and asking to these

You know, do these ancient witnesses show any evidence of having believed in soul scripture Torah? I remember in in various places including debates

You said you need a scriptura before you connect, you know before you can operate according to soul scriptura

That's all scriptura is how the church operates during its, you know, during its normative normative function, right?

It's a normative rule of faith But not during periods of inscripturation all those would be would be beyond that anyways

Right. Well, you know, so those so these early fathers, you know, they don't have access to the whole or even most of the

New Testament So it kind of makes me wonder did you know my first instinct is to say well

It doesn't matter whether these guys believed in soul scriptura because they didn't have access to most of it But I was just wondering if you could expand a little bit on that.

Well, yeah the problem that you immediately encounter here is the trying to place early church writers in context to force them to address issues that were not even a part of their

Of their thinking that is one of the primary problems I have with the abuse of Ignatius for example in regards to trying to turn him into someone who believed in Transubstantiation it's just gross anachronism or to say well

You know we can criticize this individual for having an inferior doctrine of Imputation or something like that long before there had ever even been a major discussion of the subject it's

I realized that especially Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are in a situation where they are forced to find in patristic writings their modern formulations of doctrines mainly just because the dogmatic statements of Rome as far as Roman Catholicism is concerned or the the the much less easily definable

Authoritarian structure of Eastern Orthodox, and I don't know if I don't I don't know if the you know I don't know who you're debating if you're debating a real

Eastern Orthodox person from the east I've found them to be significantly different than Eastern Orthodox folks in the

United States. Yeah, because as you know, I'm just doing this for other folks not so much for your benefit, but Eastern Orthodoxy One of the reasons

I you know people are always writing all you need to do this and you need to address that so on so forth I have resisted it because for many reasons, but one of the primary reasons is that Eastern Orthodoxy real

Eastern Orthodoxy thinks and views the world in a very non Western way and it is extremely difficult for a

Westerner either to really enter into the the

Liturgically driven theology of Eastern Orthodoxy But even more so to try to explain that to other people in standard evangelical churches

I mean the the chasm is is huge there and I just don't see myself as being the one has the ability to To try to bridge that chasm let alone really the desire to do so either so further they can't really communicate it very well

I've really never found anybody who could you know, give give me really any solid answers about it Well, you know the interesting thing is the only

Eastern Orthodox folks that I have been helped by in understanding their perspectives were the same

Eastern Orthodox folks who had no interest in debating me whatsoever and Did not have any problem with me being a

Christian. It was it was the fire -breathing We are the one true church and you folks are all split off from us

They I think both lack the the willingness and the ability to To make that type of communication and again because they've got to make some effort from their side that's what's difficult here is that it is really a very very wide and hard field to to address because They think differently they think in different paradigms

They don't think in the Western mindset and it makes it very very difficult and people on our side want to ask questions that They just go that's not even really a question for us and we go

What has to be because you say this over here and they don't see the connections that we see so it becomes extremely difficult all of that to come back to the the idea that the liturgy that has become the the law of And the very container of the theology of Eastern Orthodoxy has to be

They stay do still at least partake of the of the idea that Roman Catholics have that There's back in the back your mind somewhere no matter what you do with Newman's development hypothesis and all the rest of stuff

You still have to have the idea that the primitives believed what we believe at least in some type of seed form and and Once you start looking at liturgy and things like that they say hey here's the primary evidence that even we are more ancient than the

Romans because Look at look at the liturgy the the the consistency of the liturgy and things like that so you end up with this type of anachronism where you're asking these early writers to address issues that Just were not on their on their radar screen

It'd be the same thing like reading something that I've written today In light of some conflict that comes up 200 years from now that I'm not even familiar with it would be unfair to try to Say well, he would have said this because of this over here.

So when we when we look at The issue of solo scriptura, I think obviously

Brother King and brother Webster have done a fine job in Pointing out that so much of the information that is published out there ignores the normative recognition on the part of the patristic writers of a

Difference between that which is inspired and that which is not they do recognize that they do have a high view of God Said these things now, you're right.

Some of them didn't even have access to the full can of scripture I mean Justin Martyr you look at his theology and the primary reason that it breaks down at certain areas is because He never once quotes

Paul. He doesn't even seem to be familiar With with the Pauline epistles and so he has a a limited

Exposure to the New Testament text at that point But the the question really is is somewhat irrelevant for this reason and you already touched on it and that is if these individuals

Do not even have the entire canon of scripture Then why are you trying to make that relevant to a situation where we all?

have the entire canon of scripture and the question is what is authoritative for the church and what is not and These individuals were not promoting to us some kind of nebulous

Undefinable Tradition that is contained only in the infallible statements of the

Roman Church I mean, so that's just not what they believed and in fact many of them made statements exactly contrary to that Tertullian's of course famous mockery of his opponents using that very kind of definition of tradition is

Something that immediately comes to mind so If we allow them to be who they were Then we see that they had the kind of view of scripture that did place scripture on a completely different par than anything else

But then we have to remember they didn't have all of scripture and therefore some of their beliefs were

Not as balanced as we would like them to have some are just downright wrong We have to examine them in the exact same light that we would want to be examined

But unfortunately in the types of debates that you're engaging in trying to get somebody on the other side to be fair on that level in light of their dogmatic authorities that define for them what they have to believe is

Sometimes very difficult to do I think that I think that last the last point you made about the you know the comparison between What they're talking about and what you know this nebulous?

You know it I cite tradition whenever it suits me right you know it's very very helpful

It occurred to me in reference to this question you know having read the Webster and King's discussion of the church fathers a kind of overarching paradigm of tradition as You know scriptural interpretation

And comparing that kind of to the idea of second Thessalonians 2 15 you know whether Where the word comes you know by word of mouth or by letter or it seems to be pretty much the same message coming through Well, it is different streams.

Yeah, well obviously in the second that's when it's 15 that the context There is the gospel which had been precious Thessalonians both in Paul's presence as well as by his letters

That one's really clear But but also very clear is is Irenaeus is use of tradition when you look at what his tradition was it is sub biblical that is it is derived from the biblical testimony

As you go farther down the road and developments away from biblical teaching

Begin to seep in obviously those promoting those things are going to seek to start finding some other way of substantiating later

Emendations they make to the faith, but The the reality remains that from their perspective

They recognize there is a difference between that which inspired and that which is not this idea of well. It's all just tradition

That's just written tradition. We have oral tradition, and it's all just one big Blob of stuff that only we can define

But we won't define it for you, and if you ask us to define it for you We will call you an anti -catholic bigot or something that that's just simply not a part of of the that that early period at all and it has to be read into it and Once you've you've in essence signed your mind over to a dogmatic definition that you can't question well

You're you're good. That's what you're gonna read into it. That's that's that we see it over and over again, but you got to remember

You know years and years ago when I was doing basically what you're doing

But it was back on a BBS if you know what a

BBS is before the Internet Spending hours typing up patristic citations and digging things out and things like that and it's very important to do that I learned you know over the years afterwards that you can't always know who's observing

Those encounters and it sometimes can become very easy to become Disillusioned disheartened burned out especially when the primary person you're talking to just seems to be absolutely

Incapable and unwilling of listening to what you're saying, but there are others who are watching

There are others who are seeing it, and it's those people that years later All of a sudden you meet them at a church someplace, and they say you have no idea

But you know 15 years ago what you wrote here was absolutely instrumental in my conversion my

Coming to Christ my not going into this that I think you just never know and so as long as you have the right attitude in doing it

It's you know for the glory of Christ then I can sort of help avoid the the burnouts syndrome very good reminder

You know it's I learned I learned quite a while ago that I'm doing this for the lurkers You know it's not necessarily for the for the opponent

For the lurkers the people I never know are reading and you know hopefully it's helpful to them to see the the question -begging nature of Saying yeah, we you know our rule of faith is tradition and tradition is whatever is convenient for me at the time

Yeah, I will never forget Jerry Matta ticks in one of our debates

I I quoted from an early church writer and all of a sudden

Well, but he wasn't early church father you see he's just an early church writer

And and no matter what it would what you'd throw at him It was just it was just so obvious that it was well

I pick and choose which sources I will and will not accept That's just all there is to it and the people on my side of the argument could see that and they're sitting there going don't

You see this, but then you look across the aisle and and here's a person. Oh, oh Mmm.

The wise yes, oh and and you just you want to beat your head against the desk But you know you can't because they then they'd have that on video and play it forever, so All righty, sir, thank you very much for your time.

Thank you for calling. God bless today eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let's talk with Anthony up in Colorado where I'm gonna be heading in May early

May of next year could be heading up to do a Series up in Colorado. Hopefully it'll be nice up there.

Can you arrange for it to be nice in in May in Colorado for me? Yes, sir, okay good

You're supposed to say I'm sorry. I can't control the weather in Colorado in fact.

No one can All right, I'm sorry. That's all right guys.

I have a question. Yeah, we know Sir I was calling in about the issue of Christ's soul after the crucifixion mm -hmm last week

Micah had Err Posted that Jesus went to heaven immediately after he died on the cross could you

Explain your view on this for me well the the only the only issues here of course people know the

Apostles Creed and the phrase descended into hell that comes from Peter's discussion of Something that we we really don't know a whole lot about because it is only mentioned in in passing and that is that Jesus is said to have made proclamation to the spirits who are in prison now there are all sorts of issues as to the identification of these spirits

Specifically they are said to have been disobedient in the days of Noah On There's one direction of interpretation that identifies these with the sons of God in Genesis 6 that they are in a special place of restriction or imprisonment because they specifically attempted to destroy

God's plan through the seed of the woman by corrupting the human race in that way and therefore they have been kept under a

Special guard and that all this is talking about is that Jesus went and made proclamation of his victory over them after his crucifixion in that situation then you also have the question of Jesus's statement

I have not yet ascended to my father and to your father to my

God and your God And so is that to be understood as there was there there's some who've developed in a rather complex idea that there was a time after the crucifixion where Christ Enters into the presence of the father presents his sacrifice there

And that that's different from the ascension in the end of Luke for example when

Jesus is taken up from the disciples that it's that those are two different things and fit that into the various resurrection appearances

So that those are those are some of the issues that are raised there now the idea of Jesus going into hell to suffer

That's a completely different thing That's completely different than the idea of Jesus making proclamation of his victory over certain spirits in a place called

Tartarus There is no evidence Jesus goes into hell and suffers in hell

In fact a lot of that goes back to confusion as to the various terms used in the

Bible And in English translations the Bible between Hades, which is the realm the dead

Gehenna Which is hell Hades, which is the realm the dead Sha 'ol in the

Old Testament is the Hebrew term for the realm the dead They are not the same thing We see that in Revelation when it says that that death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire

So there's there's a difference between them and not all English translations are overly consistent in their rendering of those things, but the the primary idea is that Jesus does not go into hell to To be tormented by demons or something like that as many people have tried to present that idea

His his sacrifice has already been accepted and So when he says the thief on the cross

Today you'll be be with me in paradise Paradise was not necessarily the same thing as heaven either.

This is another issue and that is in Luke 16, we have the story of the rich man

Lazarus and It seems that the Abraham the

Abraham's bosom is Different than being in the presence of Christ So is this what is referred to when it says he led captivity captive that is that there is a transition a change after the death of Christ to where The believer goes directly into the presence of the

Lord because they are in Christ and he's opened up that way That's that's a possibility as well.

But I think we need to be careful not to try to get too dogmatic about things after this life in the sense of There are many people written entire books as to exactly what heaven's gonna look like or exactly what's gonna be like I don't think we can know

I think there's there's We see in a glass darkly and and we we really have a hard time.

I think grasping exactly what life is going to be like after this physical life and so I think we need to affirm what is plainly affirmed but resist the temptation to try to create the exact kind of Description that some people want to come up with about certain of these things

All right. Well, thank you, sir. Okay, I just blew my mind away cuz like I didn't know there were different understandings of paradise

And well, yeah a paradise and we'll think about it in Luke 16 you you have word is the word is

Lazarus goes he goes to what's called Abraham's bosom and The rich man is is in torment, but he can see where Abraham is and and where Lazarus is so that's not in heaven at that point

Everyone in the Old Testament goes to show all when they die, which is the realm the dead evidently it has two compartments to it

But Paul says that when he dies, he will be in the presence of the Lord So there's some type of a transition it seems and that might be what is what is mentioned by Paul when he says he led captivity captive that is that those righteous who had been

In Shaul, but were in comfort in Shaul Go to the presence of Christ With his at his resurrection and that every believer after that then enters directly into the presence of Christ Upon their death.

So that's one of the questions that is brought up as the relationship of Shaul and Hades the grave so on and so forth.

It's a it's pretty big big area actually Big isn't a lot of discussion about it.

I don't know how big it is. I've never measured it myself All right. All right. Thank you sir.

All right. Thanks for calling Anthony. Bye. Bye. Bye. Hey, he made it didn't pass out That's It's young man from our chat channel that has come a long

Long way from when he first showed up So I'm glad Anthony called in today and we appreciate his participation the channel even though sometimes some of us older folks don't

But the Lord helps us with our patients We're gonna take a brief break be back with Andy and your phone calls eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Alpha and Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the

Christmas morning CD by Todd Lindstrom Passion and peace are what sets Todd's music apart from others

These 12 instrumental favorites will bless and inspire you as you entertain guests and spend a

Christmas morning with your family You can find this beautiful music that celebrates the birth of our Lord in the bookstore at a omen dot org

The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

You Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce in a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you And Welcome back to the dividing line eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number that Andy called.

Hi Andy Hi, Dr. White. Yes, sir. Hey, thank you for taking my call. I just want to thank you for the

Forgotten Trinity I had read it a couple times and just realized that my own church how many people have absolutely

Really no clue what the Trinity is and that kind of leads to my question But before let me just tell you what happened.

I went to a pageant. I was talking to a buddy And somebody brought up the word Trinity and I said, well, what's up with the

Trinity and he said well, why are you using the word Trinity? And I said, well, what do you mean? Why am I using the word Trinity because it's not in the

Bible And I said, wait a minute. Hold on I said you sound like a Muslim because I thought he was putting me on I'm like you sound like a you know

Muslim who says because the Bible doesn't say or Jesus doesn't say I am God Exactly in those words.

He can't be God and I kind of was like well And he said he went to a

Bible study and Some guy had brought it up. He goes to some BSF. I don't know if you ever heard of that It's like Bible study fellowship and they end up kicking that guy out

But now this guy kind of took on this and he's like, well, it's not that important He's like, you know, it's not in the

Bible. We can't understand it. So that's it And I said, are you kidding me? And it just got it went from bad to worse because I thought at first he just didn't want to use the word

Trinity But as I kept asking him questions like about the person of the Holy Spirit and Who Jesus Christ was

I mean, it just got bad He was kind of saying like on the cross Jesus the Spirit of God left

Jesus Christ, and I'm like Okay, and then we talked about the Holy Spirit.

He said God is spirit But I said, well, what do you mean? God is spirit God the Father God the Holy Spirit and like he couldn't delineate no

No, and then I asked him, you know It was just thank you for your book because I was asked, you know able to ask him some questions

And I just kind of wanted to know when when is it like heretical? I guess because I mean as a

Christian we have to I mean, that's a fun, you know foundational doctrine, isn't it? It is and You're you're you're unfortunately

Highlighting a reality that we face in evangelicalism today. And that is that there are many people who believe that they are sort of engaging in Epistemological humility

To say well, you know, we really don't know. I mean their entire church is one of the members of Phillips Craig and Dean Goes to a church where in their statement of faith.

They basically throw their hands up in the air and say nobody knows Yeah, so you're like, okay

What is what is that fundamentally saying now? Yesterday I posted a blog article called chicken coop theology and the reason

I was I was if you've seen an inside of a chicken coop, there's all these different places for the chickens to go and and They're sort of separated from one another and you can stick your theology and all these little little spots

And and we don't see how they relate to one other this gentleman obviously does not see that by taking the position that he's taking not only is he in essence saying that scripture itself is

Insufficient to make a clear revelation as to the very nature of the one we worship

But then there are all sorts of other areas. I bet if you probed into the issue of Atonement the issue of the relationship of the father to judgment there would be all sorts of contradictions in this person's theology because clearly they are in a situation where they are not being

Challenged from the pulpit in by the elders of the church to think biblically and to think in such a way as to honor

God by by honoring his truth and Unfortunately, especially in a postmodern society that is becoming more and more and more the case

Which which absolutely handicaps a person from not only doing any type of ministry to Muslims as you yourself mentioned

But it likewise handicaps anyone from being able to give any type of of authoritative proclamation of what the gospel is the

Gospels triune If you don't understand the triune nature of the gospel You're going to be giving a muddled probably very man -centered view of the gospel to begin with so Yeah When does that become heretical when?

Correction is repeatedly offered and rejected when when if it's based merely upon ignorance

And the man is willing to be corrected and and doesn't just go well, I just reject all that Trinitarian stuff

There's there's where I draw the line. I think that's I think it's a fair biblical line is to recognize that I've talked to people.

I mean when I was first born again, I was a very young person. I did not have the knowledge of the

Trinity I have now and so When I first started asking about the Trinity as a teenager because I had ran to Mormons Most of the religious leaders to whom

I spoke in my church gave me bad responses They gave me modalistic

Examples of the Trinity and these were the religious leaders. Yeah. Okay. Does that mean I was lost?

No, it doesn't when I when I saw the truth. I embraced the truth There there are people who need to be lovingly

Challenged to really understand God's Word and to know the nature of the God that we worship but when you encounter someone who says

Actually, I know what you're teaching there and it is wrong that I believe is

When it becomes radical now, there could be lots of people in any church that are false believers I mean in the

United States, you know, you ain't losing your job yet for going to a church so there's lots of people who for this reason or that reason might be a member of a church and You know, the person could be as lost as a goose

I have no way of knowing that but I think it before we start throwing the the heretic word around We want to make sure there's real clarity as to the issues

Yeah And I you know what I think yeah that because I was it was I've known this guy for about eight years and it just really

Blew me away. I never thought you know, I guess that's the whole thing about knowing the flock I'm not an elder at my church at all

But obviously I think that the clock needs to be checked or you know Something like that because I was like, all right

I first I thought he was pulling my leg right but me and a buddy you're gonna go over to his house this week And I think he was kind of saying the whole thing of like well

If you're a new believer, all you need to know is Jesus Christ died on the cross and it's all of grace and I said, okay

I mean if you're a new believer, I don't think anybody's gonna really, you know Apprehend the Trinity. I know I didn't just kind of like you said

But if you study the scriptures and then you come to the conclusion that the holy come down Luke The Holy Ghost is not

God Then I think you've crossed and that's where he was kind of bad that he had studied and that's what he and I'm like so I'm gonna go over there and I think

I'm gonna take the approach that I Think I heard you talking to somebody about this before kind of showing how each of them are

Yes, you know distinctly God not going with the philosophical cuz I know if I turn talking persons and He's gonna be you know, yeah

Stay in the scriptures stay with what what what the born -again person is going to find to be

Something that that's useful to you, but I'll let you take care of your parental responsibilities

I'm a teacher. I'm home, and this is a tough job. I love my wife Luke Luke needed some attention immediately and for us before this forces and that's that's fine.

I Not gonna have time to get to Hitchens. We'll keep that queued up for for Thursday, but I did want to get to an article that I was directed to today by one of my bloggers

Mike Porter sent me a link to a world net daily for Tuesday December 22nd

Dave Welch World net daily exclusive commentary John MacArthur wrong on this one posted

December 22nd 2009 Dave Welch is the founder and executive director of the

US Pastor Council in Houston area Pastor Council Inter -dominational interracial ministries of and for pastors based in Houston, Texas over the past 24 years

He has held numerous leadership positions including founding executive director of Christian Coalition of Washington national field director of Christian Coalition executive director of Vision America and So with that in in mind

He says with nearly 300 ,000 citizens added to the original 189 signatories the Manhattan Declaration of which

I was privileged to be one Opposition from the outside is not only natural but expected taking even reason compassion and principle stands in the sanctity of life definition integrity of marriage and vitality of religious freedom are

Throwing red meat before the pitbulls the media political academic and even the religious elite. It is the in -house opposition

I would like to speak to recognizing my very humble standing to do so I Would like to specifically address concerns and opposition expressed by some evangelicals.

Dr. John MacArthur in particular Who have given seemingly legitimate and theologically based reasons for opposing the

Declaration I'm glad that he gave a link there to Grace to you and to dr.

MacArthur's article if you would like some other articles to link to I'd be happy to provide them as well a

Necessary disclaimer is that I am NOT ever I am NOT nor ever will be in the same league of biblical training education or proclamation

As dr. MacArthur. He is one of the truly outstanding biblical scholars of our day MacArthur's primary objection is that quote the

Gospels barely mentioned in the Declaration in quote He is also opposed because quote thus for the sake of issuing a manifesto decrying certain moral and political issues

Declaration obscures both the importance of the gospel and the very substance of the gospel message and quote

Unfortunately, that is all that. Mr. Welch gave of John MacArthur's response and I think that's why

Dave Welch missed it. He missed it because that's not Dr. MacArthur's primary problem.

He's not just simply saying this document should have been a full explication of the gospel

The point mr. Welch and the point that we all have been making in attempting to respond to the Manhattan Declaration is

That the document mentions the gospel it talks about the gospel.

Let me quote from it Christians are heirs of a 2 ,000 year tradition of proclaiming

God's Word notice all Christians Catholics Eastern Orthodox Protestants it speaks of the gospel of costly grace and It says specifically it is our duty to proclaim the gospel of our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in its fullness both in season and out of season now, these are Catholics Eastern Orthodox and Protestants talking about the gospel and Everyone knows as mr.

Welch knows that there are not only side issues of Definitional difference there are fundamental defining differences between what each of those groups believes the gospel actually is

Dr. MacArthur's problem is that if you're going to mention the gospel if you're going to say we are

Christians making these statements then we cannot allow the gospel to remain undefined and The key elements the gospel are not in the document.

The cross is not in the document The wrath of God is not in the document. It's not there and there's a reason for that the reason for that is that the primary writer of that document a man by the name of Robert George is a natural theologian and a natural philosopher and As he has said since the document was released

I'm quoting now over lunch last month the Princeton Faculty Club George noted that many

Evangelicals had signed the Manhattan Declaration despite the traditional

Protestant skepticism about the corruption of human reason quote

I sold my view about reason exclamation point Quote he declared

He was especially pleased that by signing on to the text so many Catholic bishops had endorsed his new natural law argument about marriage

It really is the top leadership of the American Church. He said so here is

Mr. George who in and of course Timothy George who is not Robert George and Chuck Colson willing

Abettors of Robert George who is a Roman Catholic Saying I sold my view about reason

Well, here's the problem. This has been one of the fundamental differences between Reformation Christianity and Roman Catholicism all along now it's not shocking that there are many

Protestants that have already abandoned the Reformed view of the total depravity of man and If you're wondering who

I'm talking about remember just a few months ago, we went through William Lane Craig's discussion of these issues and his adoption of a slightly modified view of the

Council of Trent over against the Reformers as His preferred definition of the gospel

So there are many who have already bought into these things, um Frank Beckwith clear example of someone who never bought into the

Reformed view of the nature of man the preeminence of Scripture over human reason this has been part and parcel the argument all along and So here the very man who wrote this thing is saying

I sold my view Which is an anti -reform view rah rah rah me and Evidently, mr.

Welch would be one of those who has likewise About that view even if he the problem is I doubt that even recognize that I don't know

I don't know what discussions he had with mr. George but that is the issue that John MacArthur is raising

Alistair Beggs raising I am raising in this matter as we mentioned last week in My discussion of this subject when

I went through J. Ligon Duncan's explanation of his signing of the of the statement And I should say that Sunday Saturday night.

I've got a very nice note from dr. Duncan in an email and He signed signed it your friend.

So that's we remain friends on that level and I appreciate that Let me continue on with mr.

Welch. I must state why I believe he has missed the point the declaration Although at least he is consistent with the fact that he also believes that the

Declaration of Independence Was a violation of biblical principles of authority I won't digress on that other than to assert that there is no rational defense of that position biblical or historical

Unless a person grants absolute authority to civil rulers and institutions in clear violation of sound biblical interpretation so that sounds like a

Challenge there with the current declaration. However, I believe the issue is simple. It was based on a Christian worldview

But was not designed or purposed to be an evangelistic document any more than was the

Magna Carta lex rex the 69 and 89 English Bill of Rights, etc Okay Once again, we have the exact same

Argument is being made. It wasn't meant to talk about the gospel. Then why does it talk about the gospel?

Why does it assert That we as Christians Catholics Eastern Orthodox and Protestants have the duty to preach the gospel in its fullness

Why does it do that I'm not getting any answers to that and as we pointed out last time dr

Neil Nielsen the president of Covenant College brought out those very things and Said quote while I could unreservedly commit my name to the main body of the

Declaration regarding sanctity of human life marriage and religious liberty I hesitated to sign because of these references to the gospel recognizing as I must

But there is not a common understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ among the signers in early November.

He sends out some emails and here was Here is one of the things that specifically said the key question for me is am

I willing to sign a statement? Like this along with Christian leaders who define what has stayed as the basis for the statement in very different ways for example

What are the Catholic leaders sign the statement mean by is our duty to proclaim the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in? Its fullness both in season now season.

Well, I can tell you one thing. They are going to include the sacraments in it They're gonna include a a mass that is a blasphemy against the finished work of Christ So, how can you sign it becomes the question and what

I have said is that I don't see how dr Nielsen actually gave us a reason for why he did anyways That's the problem.

He saw what the problem is And says I wish that such theological language had been left out entirely and that the statement referred more directly and exclusively to the issues themselves but when such a statement as that the bottom of page 2 is included the document implies a theological agreement on the content of the gospel and thereby goes beyond cobelligerence in a similar way as the

ECT documents and They knew They knew

He says later on it's hard for me to imagine that Colson and George both ardent supporters VCT are not at some level

Still just as ardent about the theological reunifying of Protestant Catholic communities the theological language of the document extraneous of the purpose is cobelligerence pure and simple

Carries implications and connotations for a theological agreement that I don't think I can countenance.

Well, I don't know why he eventually could But those remain the very reasons why

John MacArthur RC Sproul myself Alistair Begg and others have said nope, can't can't go there and so There is no parallel between this and the

Magna Carta Because that was not written by ecumenists That was not written by a

Roman Catholic philosopher and two ecumenical Protestant leaders who are at the very

Forefront of attempting to forge a political ecumenism in America You have to allow context to be context

He says I reject Catholic and Orthodox doctrines that place Church ecclesiastical Authority equal to that of Scripture the elevation of Mary beyond that of one who was clearly a virgin favored by God to give birth

And nurture his son our Savior Jesus Christ as well as salvation by anything other than by faith in Christ through grace alone

I am a sola supporter However, and here's where we really I think here what's going on today

Time and time again over the past 20 years I've stood side -by -side with Catholics and Mormons who shamed the evangelical church by the level to which they put their money in their time

Where their faith is in standing for life and marriage According to a California Proposition 8 insider over three -fourths the money and volunteers that effort came from these two religious groups again

That this was in spite of many megachurches in California flowing with money and manpower and What did

I say in 1994 when I wrote my first response to the evangelicals of Catholics together.

I've seen the ecumenism of the trenches Where when you stand side by side with someone?

Against a common evil What happens more often than not?

is your priorities change and the purity and clarity of the gospel which is the only power given to the church that can impact any of these cultural areas is sacrificed

For a unity that does not actually exist and that's the problem.

That's the issue here you cannot address a Anti godly view of life without talking about the author without asserting his right and his law and his wrath and his judgment and The document doesn't do that and it can't do that But it remains a theological document its own writers admit it

We have to allow the authors to define what the intention of that document was

So once again, hopefully that is helpful in understanding what's going on thinking these issues through Thursday we will be here.

I thought you want two o 'clock Okay, we're gonna be here two hours early

You know how even even Taco Bell closes early on Christmas Eve So we will to two o 'clock on Thursday for the dividing line.

I'll make sure to blog that we'll see you then We need

The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 973 4602 or write us at PO box 3 7 1 0 6

Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks