August 9, 2017 Show with David Herbert on “Becoming God: Transhumanism & the Quest For Cybernetic Immortality”

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

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Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania,.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday

on this ninth day of August 2017 and

today we have both a first -time guest and a first

-time topic.

Today we're going to be discussing transhumanism and according to the publisher of the

book that our guest today has written, transhumanism is a growing philosophical movement

among leading business leaders, scientists, artists, politicians and futurists.

They believe that the future of humanity lies in a post -human world.

In the book Becoming God, David Herbert, our guest today, traces the philosophic and

scientific roots of this movement through the changes brought with the enlightenment, the

Victorian era, religious humanism and secular humanism leading to the rise of

transhumanism profiling the key world figures in this movement, Ray

Kurzweil, Aubrey de Grey, Kevin Warwick, Natasha Vita -Moore,

Nigel Ackland and others.

He explores their views both common and unique on aspects of transhumanist

philosophy and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron.

Sharpens Iron, David Herbert.

And I consider it a privilege to have you on the program and in.

Studio with me is my co -host the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello once again, sounds like an interesting subject.

Yeah, I thought that this would interest Buzz because this is either life imitating

science fiction or science fiction imitating life.

I'm not really sure which, but my co -host is quite a science fiction,

what's the word I'm looking for?

Devotee?

Enthusiast?

I won't go quite that far, I do like it.

Yeah, well those are obviously from our conversations your favorite movies.

Yeah, oh yeah.

But anyway, this is quite a remarkable subject that

is quite bizarre and quite frightening and quite disturbing actually, but it's something that I think our

listeners should know about.

Before we even get into the subject and about the book, I want to know something about you,

Dr. Herbert.

Whenever I have a first -time guest, I typically like to get an idea of the religious

atmosphere they were raised in, if any, and what providential circumstances arose in your

life.

That the Lord used to draw you to himself and save you.

Well, I did, my mother married and

she made sure that my sister, my two sisters, myself went to Sunday

school at a

fairly young age.

Now mind you, during my growing up in a non -Christian home, of course we

always have

the

teaching then.

From that

time on, occasion and teaching, the Lord became

very, very...

Well, praise God, and I know that you were, or

should I say are, a retired teacher.

I know you're a graduate of London Teachers College.

I know that you've gotten your BA from the.

University of Western Toronto.

No, Western Ontario.

Oh, I'm sorry, Western Ontario, and your MA from Wheaton College here in the United States, and your Master of Divinity

degree from Heritage Theological Seminary, and your MED and your EDD from the

University of Toronto.

That's where the confusion came in.

And you've written on at least four books on the study of origins and Darwinism.

When in your life did this fascination arise in regard to

origins, in regard to refuting the unbiblical and even

unscientific theories of.

Darwin?

Right.

Actually, I'm just a publisher yesterday, working on my 14th book.

Wow.

And so

one of my desires was to be

13.

And so when I moved from the elementary up to secondary, one of the

courses

at that time was a grade 11 course on ancient history.

When tongue -in -cheek art began,

it became a passion for me.

From that, I've

had an

opportunity in

my high school, and out of that developed a number of books.

Well, this is a subject that we are discussing today that I think a lot of our

listeners might be totally unfamiliar with, as far as it being an actual

phenomenon, an actual goal of real scientists and so forth, rather than just

something that is the theme of science fiction movies.

Tell us something about, or define if you could, what transhumanism is.

And the people, and

as you mentioned in the introduction, these people, and they're really, many of them

now are in full, two

founders of Google, Larry Page, of

course, and others, sort

of transhumanists.

So they

have

seen

smaller, when they see that

the technology would be so much advanced

that we can merge technology.

And another thing I

can mention, when you think of

transhumanism,

you think of IMAX, eye disorder, and in the book,

it says

it's almost as if it's technology, and it

goes beyond

all

ages.

Now, this line that you used about the scientists, the atheists in

Silicon Valley, having a goal to become God, I mean, is that your way of categorizing

it, or do they actually describe it that way themselves?

Well, in

my book,

not

yet.

Not yet, there you go.

Well, most of our, I shouldn't even say that most of our listeners would remember the six million

dollar man, perhaps most of them wouldn't.

It depends on what my, I never took a poll on the age groups that listen to my show.

But if you're at least 50 or 55, as I am, you would

remember the six million dollar man.

And I see nothing at all wrong with

the technology that is helping to restore the lives of, for instance, disabled

veterans, veterans who come home, and they are missing limbs and all kinds of things.

And I rejoice in the technology that God has provided for mankind,

the intelligence that he has granted certain people to develop this technology, to help

enable disabled people to live normal lives, self -sufficient lives, and so

on.

Where would the concept of what I'm speaking of part company with what you are

describing with transhumanism?

Yeah, and I would certainly help

people have

Parkinson's.

I think that's commendable, the behind it.

You see, for example, of a transhumanist.

First of all, he says there's no God.

And when he looks at you, he looks at us more, nothing more

than just information.

I think back in terms of the mapping of the human genome.

Now, we've done that, and the last frontier, of course, is our mind.

And so what you have, there's no spiritual dimension in you at all.

And so we're just sort of the collection of information as they see it.

Then why shouldn't we be able to take that information and put it in some sort of,

it's really, the division comes, as it always does, is

what is the people's theology?

As you were saying before,

make their lives better and make them more useful.

That's one thing.

To a point, because they become

God.

And I'm assuming you would

also believe that other than those that.

Are actually identifying themselves with an ideology of transhumanism, there may be

Christians involved in the field of medicine, in the field of computer

technology, in all the fields that would be involved in enabling disabled

people to live self -sufficient normal lives.

I'm assuming that you would believe that a Christian could, without any troubled conscience, be

involved in.

That spectrum of technology.

Some young people

becoming God.

The thing is,

what's controlling what?

I mean, I control the computer.

But I think, as I mentioned before, now we're in a situation where technology is

controlling.

I mean, I'm

certainly...

I'm kind of getting a flashback.

From the movie, the 1970s movie, Westworld.

Did you ever see Westworld?

No, I haven't.

Oh, really?

Well, it's basically about a futuristic amusement park where the robots look

exactly like real human beings.

And one of the three amusement parks in this futuristic theme park was

Westworld, where it was the whole amusement park in that

section of the theme park was the Wild West.

And there were cowboys shooting each other, and their guns had some kind of sensor where they

could never even accidentally shoot a real human being.

And there was a computer glitch where the robots were hunting down all

the humans in the movie and killing them because all these safeguards that were

built into the system had gone awry.

So anyway,.

I would suggest that you watch the movie.

Well, okay.

But as I said, I don't have a television, but I'm sure you could find it on

YouTube somewhere.

I'm trying to figure out here,.

Since we're talking about technology and movies and becoming God and all that, I'm trying to figure out which movies

we're talking about, really.

And so, I mean, you're talking about like artificial intelligence also, right?

Are you talking about just the human mind.

Developing to Godhood?

Well, I think intelligence is really part of the

whole thing.

I mean, as I

mentioned

before, and

this one wave,

and she's

now, she's gone through primal,

the

human capability, they

want to

get in this.

Well, I want to read

an endorsement for.

Your book by a guest that I have had on this program a number of times.

He's one of my favorite guests, Jerry Bergman.

Oh, yes, I know Jerry.

Professor and author of Hitler and the Nazi Darwinian Worldview and a number of other books.

Jerry says, transhumanism is an international cultural movement that has as its goal the radical

transformation of humanity by the development of technologies that greatly enhance the intellectual,

physical, and psychological capacities of humans.

While a laudable goal and one that has attracted many supporters from a wide range of

perspectives, its roots and fruits lend credence to the objections of

Stanford University professor Francis

Fukuyama.

He ranks the idea as among the most dangerous in history.

Although biologist Julian Huxley is regarded as the founder of the

philosophy, basic transhumanist ideas were first articulated by British evolutionist J .B .S.

Haldane.

Haldane supported the now infamous philosophy of eugenics, the application of genetics

to improve humanity, which led to, among other things, the Nazi Holocaust.

In Becoming God, Herbert explores the goals of the transhumanist movement

and documents the reasons why it is so dangerous and threatens the values of free

society.

Dr. Herbert is a careful and thorough researcher and has written a valuable book that both

informs and analyzes this growing movement.

And as I said, that was Dr. Jerry Bergman, a frequent guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And by the way, I don't know if you're aware of this, Dr. Herbert, and

actually there's no reason why you would be already aware of this, but I lived about 20 minutes away,

the hometown that I grew up in, Amityville, Long Island, New York, and I only moved away from

Long Island in 2015, but I only lived about 20 minutes away from the Cold Spring Harbor

Laboratories, which was the headquarters of eugenics in the United States

prior to that no longer being a facet of that laboratory.

Yeah, oh no, and of course, we in Canada, there was,

you

know, this eugenics was going.

Well, let's go back to the, trace this to the very roots.

Let's go back to the Enlightenment and discuss how this has its roots even in the Enlightenment.

It goes

on, he

said, Enlightenment

or better is that everything has to be

compatible to read 17th, 18th century when the

Enlightenment was in terms of moved up

into Scotland and certainly in the United States, we think in terms

of independence, many of

the

Enlightenment

thinking and through

the

Enlightenment

and became the answer, the what became the driving

force

and that

signals the 21st century.

By the way, I have two of those questions that are a bit altered that I ask my co -host, Reverend Buzz

Taylor, every day.

Why are you here and when are you going?

I hope he gives a biblical answer.

But anyway, well, let's move on from there to the Victorian era, which

is the 19th century.

Yeah, well, when you think

in terms of, for

example,

and so we have

those

are coming along

and along with that,

the 19th century

coming those two

streams.

Yes, and I understand that a lot of the racist

ideas of eugenics since they had their

at its root in the 19th century, a lot of that really

arose to have popularity amongst the liberal

elite, or at least the elite in general, the racist elite was because of the

fact that slavery had become outlawed in the United States, the Civil War was over, and you

had a lot of elitist whites who were looking for a

solution to the fact that the North American continent had been a

lot of freed slaves that they were worried about.

They were worried about what these slaves would now do now that they had more freedom and power in their hands.

So they developed all these evil ideas, which eventually led to

Margaret Sanger in the early 20th century, starting what is now known as

Planned Parenthood, and a lot of people still don't realize that Planned Parenthood's main

goal was to sterilize those of non

-white backgrounds, non -white races, although I believe there's only one race, the

human race, but to use their language, so that the population

would basically eventually just die off.

And of course, then Planned Parenthood, when abortion became legal, they became the masters

of the infanticide mill.

But if you could comment on that whole progression there.

Yeah, although it's 1959, I mean, the whole thing was,

of course,

when he came back from

South America.

Well, we're going

to

go to a

break

right now.

If anybody would like to join us.

With a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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country of residence.

And before we go to the break, I will read you a question and then you could answer it when we return.

Daniel in San Jose, California is our first questioner.

Can you ask Dr. Herbert to briefly explain the shift hundreds of years ago

from the Christian worldview to deism, naturalism, and so on to the postmodern view?

That is the first of a couple of questions he asked.

In fact, I will I will email you, I will forward you

Daniel's email so you will have all these questions in front of you and you can mill them

over during our station break, if that's all right with you.

And once again, if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orensen, if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today for the full two hours, with 90 minutes to go, is Dr. David Herbert, graduate of

London Teachers College, having earned his B .A. from the University of Ontario, Western Ontario,

his M .A. from Wheaton College, his Master of Divinity from Heritage Theological Seminary, and his

M .E .D. and E .D .D. from the University of Toronto, and he's the author of a number of

books on origins and Darwinism.

We are discussing his book Becoming God, Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic Immortality.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail dot com.

Chrisorensen at gmail dot com.

And as you know, Dr. Herbert, before the break, I read one of a couple of questions, or three questions,

submitted by Daniel in San Jose, California, the first of which is, can you ask Dr. Herbert

to briefly explain the shift, hundreds of years ago, from the Christian worldview of deism,

naturalism, and so on, to the post -modern worldview?

Yeah, I have it on my computer here, too.

As I mentioned before, when you think in terms of a worldview,

and again, I think of those three eternal questions, but a world in the

18th, 19th century, up to the 20th century, as I mentioned before,

understanding those three questions and how we answer them, the spirit of enlightenment, the

final, when we went through, the

Bible was replaced by reason, and as you mentioned right here, for example,

tried to answer those three questions, when the Bible was pushed and moved right up to the

21st century, we live in a time now where Christianity has been totally marginalized, and so in answering those

questions, we depend on reason.

Now, of course, deism, naturalism, or post -modernism, the foundation

of all those is reason.

And Daniel in San Jose, California, also asks,.

How that ties into transhumanism, and also, can you explain how Christians

can properly understand transhumanism so as to accurately represent it

when we engage with those who.

Hold that view and proclaim to them the gospel?

Yeah, that last question, in my book,

and in the appendix of my

book, we had what's called a transhumanist questionnaire, and we,

one -on -one, and one

was dealing with transhumanism, the

opportunity of having a

more intelligent, and again, these were dealing with some of

them, and, but the

last question deals with

death.

And,

I'll give

the options

that we

had an opportunity.

Well, Daniel,.

You have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing today, Becoming God,

Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic Immortality, by our guest, David Herbert.

Thank you very much for contributing excellent questions to the program.

Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron and spreading the word about the program in San Jose, California, and beyond.

And the next question we have is from

Rose in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

And, Rose, I have to enlarge her question because the font is so small.

Transhumanism, amazing, the search to overcome death, all the while they are killing new life in the womb by

the hundreds, if not the thousands, actually millions, by the day.

Does this not drip with irony?

This is more of a comment than a question, but leads to a very

very important ironic element of this whole discussion.

There are a lot of ironic elements that are arising day by day within

leftism.

For instance, not that this is a part of our discussion today, but you have

leftists wanting public bathrooms to be available to anyone, regardless of their gender,

and now you actually have feminists who are part of the leftist movement who realize that's insane, because the

feminists have for decades viewed men as predators, sexual

predators, if not all men or the majority of them, and they see how this is

insane to be permitting men to be strolling into the restrooms where they are

desiring or needing privacy.

But what she says about abortion going on, and you have

simultaneously this quest for eternal life.

Physically, it is quite an ironic thing, isn't it?

See, for example, in Canada, we're way ahead of you people.

Yeah, so I hear.

I mean, for example, we have legislation which was what I think was in 2000 that men

couldn't, you know, marry men, and as far as the transhumanist

gender, we might have

prime minister.

Wow.

So, I mean, you've

got some catching up to do, but the unfortunate part is I look across the

border, I think you're going on the same, you're on the same wagon we're on.

Yeah, yeah, it is quite tragic.

Do the architects of this

movement, do they have any response to the question of abortion at all?

I mean, are they a mixed group?

Are there any pro -lifers among them, ironically?

Or are they, from what you understand, are they all pro -death or pro -choice?

It was interesting that even the atheist Christopher Hitchens became pro -life,.

But if you could comment on that.

I'm not too sure.

Are you saying, for example, for example, the abortionists and

so on?

Or are there any pro -lifers among them as well,.

Amongst the transhumanists?

If they even discuss it or mention it, I'm not even sure.

Yeah, well, I think, you know, basically

in academia, and of course, as I said right from the beginning, when you think

in terms of Mark

Zuckerberg

and so on,

I mean, these

and the

humanists,

as I said,

it's the greatest

threat.

The internet and

Google, the internet,

three in the pews, really know very little about transhumanism.

Now, there is an interesting thing going on here that's also a tension

between conflicting ideas.

If most in the transhumanist society would be

leftist, and they are on a quest for immortality,

for achieving immortality for humans, leftists are also pretty much

leading the charge against overpopulation, which is why they're in favor of abortion,

and so on, and why they're in favor of euthanasia.

There seems to be a interest here.

Do they expect procreation to come to a halt at some point with this technology?

Yes.

Oh, they do?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, well, that's right.

I mean, for example, when you become,

we think that would come to an end.

So they actually expect the human aspects of cybernetic beings to

be diminished, and in fact, perhaps even nearly entirely erased?

Right, I would think so.

That, looking down the future, and they are to the future,

but my

understanding,

that

would

be

to finally,

they

think

they're going to...

Very good point.

Well, let's now move on to both religious and secular humanism, if you could

approach those two areas of humanity when it comes to transhumanism's rise.

Yeah, well, you, for example, what I did,

Cresting assigned it, and John Dewey was one of

them, in the Humanist

Manifesto of 1932, they recognized what they saw,

what they wanted

to society, which is,

and then, of

course, a

particular humanist...

Yes, I remember him on the John Ankerberg program years ago.

I think he even debated Walter Martin, if I'm not mistaken, or one of the apologists on the panel

that Dr., or should I say that John Ankerberg had on his program?

Absolutely.

Now, of course, you see, we've got a progression here.

We've got, being a religious authority

now, and so,

at the

university, four

or five thousand

confirmed atheists, and, but he was

the new, which is 1973, and,

of course, now,

the 1990s, moving up to, you

see, and certainly, when

you think in terms

of Paul Kirk, he had a,

could

be

humanitarian,

and so

they

were

in

control, and using technology and so on, we can accelerate...

Wow.

Well, we're going to go to our midway break right now.

This is an elongated break that we have to conduct to accommodate our friends at Grace Life Radio 90

.1 FM in Lake City, Florida, who require a 12 -minute break between our two

segments.

So, if you would like to join us on the air, why not write some questions right now while we're on a break, and

send them in as soon as possible.

There are a couple of people still waiting to have their questions asked and answered, and we will get to you as soon as possible.

But our email address is chrizarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at

gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away.

God willing, we'll be right back with David Herbert and more of our discussion on Becoming God,

Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic.

Immortality.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs

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One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively

use batterydepot .com for all your battery needs.

At batterydepot .com, they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory

of top -of -the -line batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

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And I wonder if Battery Depot has batteries for cyborgs.

That would be a good line of batteries for them to develop.

If you've just tuned us in, our guest today is David Herbert.

He is the author of Becoming God, Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic Immortality.

We're going to be returning to our discussion momentarily, but I just have a few important announcements to

make.

The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the Long Island Spurgeon

Fellowship present The Gospel of the Reformation, a 500th anniversary celebration

featuring my friend Dr. Tony Costa, who I just mentioned to Dr. Herbert a little while ago.

Dr. Tony Costa, who is a professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist

Seminary.

He is going to be joined by Pastor Caleb Bunch, Pastor Bruce Bennett, and Pastor David Corson

at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island from Friday, September 29th through

Saturday, September 30th.

And if you would like to register for this conference, it's free of charge, but

please call them to register at 631 -806 -0614.

631 -806 -0614.

Although it's free of charge, a love offering will be taken.

And the Word of Truth Church can also be found at wotchurch

.com.

That's W -O -T, standing for Word of Truth Church dot com.

Then on the very next day, Dr. Tony Costa will be also speaking at Hope Reformed

Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, located on Route 112 in

Medford, Long Island.

And he will be speaking at the 11 a .m. service at Hope Reformed Baptist Church

of Medford, Long Island.

If you need more details, you can call Hope Reformed Baptist Church at 631 -696

-5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711.

Or you can go to hopereformedli .net.

Hopereformedli .net for directions and other information.

Then coming up in November from the 17th through the 18th, the Alliance of Confessing

Evangelicals is conducting their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

And I do plan on being there with an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth.

So I hope that you join me there.

The speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott

Oliphant.

The theme is for Still Our Ancient Foe, referring to Satan, of course.

And that is from the line from Martin Luther's classic Reformational hymn, A Mighty Fortress.

If you would like to register for that conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet

.org, click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.

And then coming up from January 17th through the 20th in Atlanta, Georgia, we have the G3

Conference.

Returning to Atlanta, G3 standing for Grace, Gospel, and Glory.

And I will, God willing, also have an exhibitors booth there.

So I hope you join me in Atlanta for this conference on the theme, Knowing God, a Biblical

Understanding of Discipleship.

January 17th will be exclusively in the Spanish language, and January 18th through the

20th, the conference will exclusively be in the English language.

And the speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles Jr.,

Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller,

Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

If you'd like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com.

That's G, the number three, conference .com.

And if you contact any of these organizations to either register for their events or just to ask

questions about them, please make sure you tell them that you heard about those events from

Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And now it's time for my daily season or my daily episode of

grubbing money from you, and it makes me very uncomfortable to do that, but my advertisers

who have been keeping Iron Sharpens Iron Radio afloat and on the air have urged me to make

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the air.

Well, we are now back to our discussion that we began a little over an hour ago

with Dr. David Herbert on Becoming God, Transhumanism and the Quest for Cybernetic

Immortality.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Herbert, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we do have a listener.

This is quite interesting, Dr. Herbert.

I don't know if our listener in Rock Hill, South Carolina, Tony with an I, I

don't know if she's a prophetess, and I'm saying that tongue -in -cheek because I don't believe in extra -biblical

revelation, but Reverend Buzz Taylor and I, my co -host, during the break, we were

actually discussing this question that she poses.

She says or asks, I was wondering how your guest views transhumanism with regard to

eschatology.

And end -time events as prophesied in Scripture.

Yeah, that's a good question.

Again, I haven't done a lot of research, and

I went back, and

my desire was to

come about on, you

know, the whole idea.

Well, the

reason why the Reverend Buzz Taylor and I brought it up.

Is because it would seem that the biblical record would discount

the cybernetic humanoids, however you want to describe them, as having

taken over the earth, if you will.

If the dream of those in the transhumanist society were to come true, it would seem

to conflict with the biblical record of there being humans, real humans,.

On the earth when the Lord returns, etc.

Yeah, I would certainly

agree.

Now, how

that's going to work,

I feel comfortable making

any, and

when the Lord intervenes...

All right, well, let's go through, before we even get to the core issue of why this is the most

dangerous threat, in your opinion, against the Christian Church, let's go through some of the main characters,

some of them you've already mentioned, but perhaps you could go into further detail about some of the core figures

involved in this movement.

Let's start with.

Ray Kurzweil.

Oh, Ray Kurzweil,

certain audible sounds

for the deaf, he

did

that, I mean, he

designed that to be the size of a

desk, and today you could hold that thing in your hand.

You think in terms of the synthesizer, and

he's written

some other

singularities, as I mentioned in 2045,

you have

the emerging of humanity with technology, he's now saying

it's 2029,

Larry Page, and

become, and again, he's sort

of a millionaire with a number of companies, and so the first time

in 2028, he's an engineer.

By the way, I

forgot to tell Tony in Rock Hill,.

South Carolina, I need your full mailing address, I just have your city and state, because we're going to mail

you a free copy of Becoming God, Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic Immortality,

compliments of our friends at Joshua Press, and also compliments of our friends at

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cv, for Cumberland Valley, bbs, for biblebookservice .com,

cvbbs .com, who will be actually physically mailing that book out to

you, so please give us your full mailing address.

Thanks again for submitting an excellent question, Tony, and if anybody else would like to

submit one, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail

.com.

Before I go to any of the other listeners waiting to have their questions asked, let's move on to

Aubrey de Grey.

Yeah, he's a British

in the

game,

where we can use that,

that's really...

And one of the other main figures in the book that you address is Kevin Warwick.

Yeah, another pretty interesting

work.

He's the one that a

mechanism, a radio thing, put into his in his arm,

it's one that was able to, and he

also was able to, using the computer, connect also New York, and so he's, as

an engineer, some interesting things,

and even putting things in, you know, implantables in your head.

And where does Natasha Vita -Moore come into the situation?

Yeah, now, as I mentioned,

I

mentioned

her design a body,

she wants to maintain a human body, but to be

all these extended

heart, more capable than our body now.

She's even thinking, for example, if you have this body could dive into the water,

and you stand on the water for...

Now, where are we, in regard to technology, that

you know of, and when I say we, I mean, where is the

scientific world at, in regard to the development of

this technology, you know, that is being actually used right now,

even experimentally, with human beings?

How far have, has science come in regard to the

artificial elements of humans that are, in some way, at least, they perceive them to be

beneficial to them?

Okay, that's a good question.

When you think in terms of the stages that we've gone

through, I

remember, for example, my son lives in

out west, and you go sit

in there, and they got their cell phone, and so the first day,

and we're certainly beyond that, I mean, when you think in terms

of how many people are walking around holding the cell phone.

The next stage is what's called, so we got holdable, we got wearable, and you think in terms

of the

thinking of putting, what,

these whole thing in your clothing, like a GPF, put them into your clothing.

The next, so we got holdable, now the next one is implantable, now that's really interesting.

An article in

Wisconsin, and as

of last week, what they, is

that they're putting FID, re

-identification, they're going to put

the, between your index finger and your thumb,

device, open the,

turn on their

computers, they would have their medical record.

Then the last one, and this would be down in the future, is

that

we will have, with these

nanobots,

if there's any problems we have, say cancer or whatever, these

nanobots would take care of that.

These nanobots, of course, they'd be also located in your brain, and this would then connect

them,

and so when you think

in terms

of these implantables in their hands, and I certainly,.

Well, going back to something that I touched on earlier,

if I were in a horrific accident, and as long as I

knew that there would be nothing done to my mind that would

somehow alter who I was as a person,

and as long as things like my love for God, and love for

my family and friends, and things like that, were not negatively altered,

many of the things that you discussed, as far as the body is concerned, would seem to be

very helpful, good, and wonderful things that we should celebrate.

Where would the line be crossed, in your opinion?

Well,

what my

wife, where,

and before,

and

we're in control,

as I mentioned,

as we're moving along, there's this tremendous dependency, like, we're even

talking about people cannot be,

and I think that's a real danger.

Well, here we have something that's very similar to the question I asked.

Maggie, in Dallas, Texas, says, Don't think this too

medieval a mentality, I hope.

At what point should we be concerned with altering the image of God too far,

or insofar, that we make it an abomination?

For example, as I said, we're on that path right now, and

all they have, and that's, I suppose, another thing too,

Chris, is that when you're thinking about, I

mean, I have a program I use for my book.

If I was to update that, I'd have to get one,

you

know, controlling all this stuff.

And, by the way, Maggie, you have won our final copy of Becoming God,

Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic Immortality.

We need your full mailing address in Dallas, Texas, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service,

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service, can ship that

out to you.

So, keep your eye open in the mail for a shipping label that has a return address that says

CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service dot com.

CVBBS dot com.

We thank Todd and Patty Jennings for being faithful supporters of Iron Sharpens Iron, who own and

operate CVBBS dot com, and ship out all of our winners in the Iron Sharpens Iron radio audience,

their Bibles, books, and anything else they win by submitting questions.

So, thank you again, Maggie.

Please get us your mailing address, and hopefully you'll get that in about a week or so.

And we're going to be going to our final break right now.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com.

And please always give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of

residence, if you live outside of the good old USA.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with David Herbert.

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my

advertisers.

I know you all use batteries every day, so I'm urging you all from now on to exclusively

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At Battery Depot dot com, they're changing the status quo.

They're flipping the script.

They're sticking it to the man.

In other words, they're changing the status quo.

They'd like to change the battery industry for good by providing an extensive inventory of top -of -the -line

batteries that are uniformly new, dependable, and affordable.

Ordering from Battery Depot dot com ensures you'll always get fresh, out -of -the -box batteries

you can count on to work properly at competitive prices.

Whether you need batteries for cordless phones, cell phones, radios, PCs, laptops,

tablets, baby monitors, hearing aids, smoke detectors, credit card readers, digital

cameras, electronic cigarettes, GPSs, MP3 players, watches, or

nearly anything else you own that needs batteries, go to Battery Depot dot com.

Next day shipping available.

All products protected by 30 -day guarantees and six -month warranties.

Call 866 -403 -3768.

That's 866 -403 -3768.

Or go to Battery Depot dot com.

That's Battery Depot dot com.

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books for all ages.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes and the next half hour to come, our guest has been and will

continue to be Dr. David Herbert.

We are discussing his book, Becoming God, Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic

Immortality.

If you'd like to join us on the air for the question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail

.com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

Please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA.

And we have RJ in White Plains, New York, who asks, Do we not need to be careful

about being superstitious?

There have been many well -intentioned Christians throughout history who were opposed to

certain developments in technology and medicine that viewed these things as dangerous

for unbiblical reasons and were purely superstitious in their reaction against them.

Don't you think that we have to be very careful about not repeating history in this regard?

...to a mind, and I went through those

implantable...

When you think in terms of...

And when people...

And as I mentioned, well, not only Google, but you've

got Google, Facebook, I mean, all these technologies, and these men that are controlling these

are men who have an agenda.

Well, let's revisit exactly why you believe that this is the most

dangerous thing facing the future of the Christian church.

That's quite a remarkable claim there.

Well, it's interesting.

I'm just...

One of the...

Okay, and I think in terms of Mormonism...

Really?

Oh, absolutely.

Well, you think in terms

of developing beautifully with Mormonism.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, they think that they are, and not necessarily that we all are.

Well, but the thing is, you see, the theology of

Mormonism...

Really?

...in the church in Fort Lauderdale...

Wow.

...also writing

on Islam.

And so, you think in terms of

becoming a

number up front.

Now, what would be different about the theists, and I'm assuming, although

I'm not 100 certain about the Presbyterian transhumanists being theists, because

there are some from the left wing of Presbyterianism that might even be atheists

while simultaneously claiming to be Presbyterian, but there would be theists that you're

mentioning, and the most bizarre, I think, would be the Islamic transhumanists,

because they even believe that the most horrific sin that

one can commit is the sin of a shirk that attributes partners with God,

and therefore they even condemn the belief in the deity of Christ as something that is

an abomination.

So, the idea of a human becoming God through cybernetic technologies would seem to

be in conflict with even Islam, but if you could touch on the theists involved with this and how it differs from

the atheists that you mentioned earlier.

Well,

35 ,000 Muslims, and they're young people.

But is there any explanation, like, for instance, those that are professing to be Christian,

do they see a future just like the atheistic transhumanists that

would be devoid of any fleshly, physical humanity existing in the

future, where everything is just computerized and cybernetic technology?

What is their view, the ones that claim to be Christian?

Well, I can't speak with any definitiveness, because I've only just started.

One thing

that linking up this thing...

Wow.

So, this is, I think, Chris, you brought some good, but I think this is one area

where we need to do more research, and I think it's going to come more and more to the fore.

The thing is, the tremendous control that it's having upon our young, well, not our

young people, I mean, I think that's a

big...

Who is in control?

And I

can see that,

and when the four

young people,

they brought up this thought,

I guess that's the point.

And you have a concluding chapter in your book about the resurrected body, the Christian's hope, if you could

explain further.

Well, that's

in cheek.

I say, well, if you're going to put me in a computer, make sure it's a Mac.

Yeah, but good luck getting parts when you fall into a problem,

or a repair.

Yeah, you see, the thing is, and

one that's

totally

unacceptable,

I'm looking forward to a new body that comes through Jesus Christ, to have one just like

he has.

And certainly that's not the...

I mean, he wants to emerge with technology.

This is one thing they're wrestling with.

What do I become when I become part?

I'm going to have a new body, and that body will certainly...

With the Lord, and my wife, and other

Christians who are going to spend eternity with me.

He wants to get rid of

that.

He's going to be strengthened.

Let's see, we have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, a number of years ago, there seemed

to be quite a scare regarding what became known as test tube babies.

Babies that were developed in a laboratory without the

normal God -given procreation activity that would bring about human

life.

Is your, or should I say, does your study have anything to do with this phenomenon,

where we may have multitudes of humans in our future that have come to be

without normal parental procreation?

Well, they

are

talking

about...

That's what Hitler was trying to do.

Well, that's right.

But you see, that's about the

only comment I can

make.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, what do

these transhumanists envision as being the intelligentsia

that would be involved in repair and other things that go haywire with these

humanoids of the future?

I'm just not too sure.

I'm just not too sure of the intent of that question.

Well, for instance, if human beings are no longer in existence and their

ideology, their idea of nirvana, of cyborgs roaming the earth without any

physical human traits left, if there's going to be a malfunction with these

things, who is going to be repair...

I'm assuming this is what our listener is getting at.

Who's going to be repairing these cyborgs?

Well, as I said before, Chris, make sure you get a Mac.

That'll take care of that, right?

That's a good question.

The most important

thing

is

your

identity.

And so the whole idea of mind uploading is having a backup for your mind.

That's actually been...

Talk about that has been going on for decades.

There were rumors.

I don't know if the Walt Disney rumor is true, but do you know anything about that?

Is Walt Disney really frozen in hopes that...

I think there is a change, if I can understand correctly, and Ted Williams is another one too.

That's right.

That was very recent.

That was just a few years ago.

Yeah.

Now, I'm not too sure about Walt, because I think, if I remember correctly, there was

the family changed their mind.

Sorry, Walt.

And I might check,

but they have a thousand people that have already signed up ready to go.

And that's including...

That's another aspect.

Then what you want to do is, as I said, you have really two options.

But more importantly, you want to have your head preserved because if you

can revive,

then they feel that they can then construct a body for it.

But once the body or the brain or the head...

Let's see.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,

are there any from the liberal and leftist community that you are aware of, even

scientists who may be joining the more biblically moral and conservative

society in protesting against this kind of thing?

I don't.

If you've got, say, a large majority of people in academia...

Well, I want to make sure that you have at least five minutes to really summarize what you most

want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners in an uninterrupted fashion

before we take any further questions that may come in.

So you have the floor right now to really make sure that you say everything that you want our

listeners to learn today.

In summary.

Just going back again, the whole idea of the people who are really

pushing forth the transhumanist movement.

I talk about billions of dollars into different areas, like

in the case

of the California Life Company.

And it was founded by Larry.

And if you go through...

For example, I mentioned Ray Kurzweil, Musk.

These men here are becoming

more

and

more dependent.

And the

people, as

I've already mentioned, we now talk about implantables.

We have in your country, in Wisconsin, now

implanting these things in

their...

And I look at

the transhumanist movement...

Now, are there any voices that you know of within medicine and science

that view this, just because of the technology that we already have,

that they view this as, even if it were possible for this to be developed, this kind of

level of technology that you're talking about, who are saying, well, even if this were possible, you're talking

about hundreds of years into the future.

Is there anybody saying anything like that in the scientific community?

It might not even be at all connected to religion or faith.

They're just talking about what they know of from medicine and science.

Are you saying, for example...

Maybe not opposed to it because of any ideology that they have,

just that they believe that it is perhaps either a scare tactic or that it's not

something that we could ever imagine happening within either our lifetime or even the next couple of generations,

that this is probably hundreds of years into the future, even if it's possible?

If anything, I think they're embracing the terms of,

again, as I mentioned,

and I just say from academia...

And as far as the soul is concerned,

obviously this would be another key thing that would discount

this coming to fruition as far as all of humanity globally is concerned, because

technology can't possess a soul.

And if these are cyborgs or robotic

machines, really, rather than beings, they would be devoid of souls, and therefore

the scriptures also would discount the possibility of this becoming

a technology that completely replaces human beings,

according to the scriptures, that could not ever happen.

Well, I agree with you, but just keep in mind, as I think I've mentioned before, I'm not going to speak in

terms...

I can't speak in terms of being totally

marginalized.

Christianity has no part.

I mean, you think in terms of, again, in 2006,

the whole idea of homosexual marriage,

and so when we're making legislation,

we are

becoming

more and more godless.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information.

First of all, the fine folks at Joshua Press who

provided these books today that we gave away, if anybody listening would like to find out more about

Becoming God, Transhumanism, and the Quest for Cybernetic Immortality, you can go to

joshuapress .com, joshuapress .com,

also, just always keep in mind that you can always order any book that we bring up on Iron Sharpens

Iron Radio.

You can always order that through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley,

BBS for BibleBookService .com, CVBBS .com, and if they don't have

it when you contact them, they can certainly order it.

And do you personally have any other contact information, Dr. Herbert, that you would like to provide for our listeners?

No, I don't really.

Tell us about Sola Scriptura, because I don't have right in front of me the contact information for Sola Scriptura.

Yeah, it's the same as Joshua Press.

Okay, joshuapress .com, joshuapress .com.

And, well, I just want to thank you so much for being on the program, and

this was certainly a fascinating discussion, and I'd be looking forward to see what kind of sequels you write as the

technology develops, and other things come about in the news.

And I do also want to remind our listeners one more time that the Word of Truth Church in

Farmingville, Long Island, New York, in cooperation with Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, are having the

Gospel of the Reformation 500th Anniversary Celebration in Farmingville, Long Island,

on Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th.

Please call them at 631 -806 -0614.

Area code 631 -806 -0614.

The following day, October 1st, Dr. Tony Costa, who is speaking at that

500th Anniversary Celebration, will also be speaking at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island

in Medford, New York, at their 11 a .m. service.

You can go to hopereformedli .net, hopereformedli

.net.

And don't forget to try to join me also at the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology, November 17th through the

18th, at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

That website is alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, and click on Events,

and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.

And then don't forget about the G3 Conference coming to Atlanta, Georgia from the

17th through the 20th of January.

The 17th, as I mentioned earlier, is exclusively a Spanish edition of the conference, and from the 18th through the 20th

is exclusively in English.

And the speakers are many at that conference, including Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith

Gay, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Matheny,

and Michael Krueger, and others.

The theme is Understanding, or should I say Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

You could go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

And tomorrow, I hope that you tune in because we are going to have

a first -time guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron as well.

His name is James Dolezal, and we are going to be discussing tomorrow his book,

All That Is in God.

All That Is in God.

It is a book that I have been hearing about from a lot of

folks, not only listeners in the Iron Sharpens Iron audience, but scholars and so on that I know

who are raving about this book and who actually are the ones who urged me to interview

James Dolezal.

So he'll be on tomorrow, 4 to 6 p .m., and I hope that you join us tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron and

be prepared to submit questions for James Dolezal.

And we've also been notified by the publisher of his book, All That Is in God,

Reformation Heritage Books.

They are providing us with some giveaways to those who submit questions.

But I want to thank you again, Dr. David Herbert, for being on our program.

I want to thank you, the Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host today.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And if you haven't given me your mailing addresses yet, those of you who won the book, please let me

have those mailing addresses as soon as possible so I can give them to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs

.com.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.