Open Phones on the Dividing Line

Technical Difficulties and Return to the Dividing Line

And welcome to the dividing line. If we are here we don't know. Uh we just had to reset the modem. The computer crashed twice. It's great to be back. Evidently uh the computer would rather have john samson uh sitting in this chair.

Because it obviously does not like me uh because it isn't working well. John doesn't use computers. He uses you know paper. Yeah yeah yeah. And that's probably why he decided to start the esv only movement.

Uh and i've got to admit the um i suppose this needs to be plugged in. Boy which hole do i plug that into. We'll find out soon enough. Um uh the uh the endorsements that uh john got for the esv only movement were i thought the eric and canter one was was just classic.

That was. That was good. That was good. It's it's good to know that when the cat's away the mice will start heretical movements. Uh there you go. But uh it's good to be back. Um even though i'll have to admit the uh the weather sure was nice.

In in uh in uh santa santa fe and in evergreen colorado and boulder and places like that. And at the top of mount evans and uh going over loveland pass and all those other things. And uh i was going to do a travel log for you.

Maybe i will yet in the future. But we have other things to do. And and to thank everybody. Let me just briefly thank everybody that made the past two weeks for me. I hope you all found the debate with bob enyart to be useful.

I've seen a lot of commentary about that and the presentations we did on the subject of response to the quote gay christian movement end quote though i don't obviously use that terminology myself. Um but uh we'll hold that off uh a little bit later uh eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

We have not tested the phones but the nice thing is i actually i actually do have connection to the stack. So uh that's that's one of the few things that's gone right so far. Uh technically for us uh so we'll see we'll see what happens that that angle looks different.

Did you. Did you move it or zoom it or it seems to be taking a lot more of the computer screen in that it did before i i don't know it's just you didn't you didn't think things got moved. No i i had no no no no no no no no no back back off back off.

See this. Stop stop moving stop no go away. Oh is that a different stand. Yeah. But we can you know if you want we'll just uh what are you doing. Get it all. You know. How's that angle. Is that better.

You know the phones ring. I thought i'd let you know there's someone there's out there. No it's no it's that work. Okay you know people people on the podcast are really wondering what you're doing here.

California's Same-Sex Marriage Language and the Loss of Created Order

Uh i um i did want to mention one thing before we go to calls. Um there was an article um just absolutely amazing and i didn't get to comment on it. So I saw it the day that that it happened. And um as reported in the huffington post california's same-sex couples may now be pronounced spouse and spouse after governor jerry brown with a big old d behind his name signed a bill last monday eliminating outdated husband and wife references from state laws.

The post also explains that senate bill 1306 was introduced by state senator mark leno big d san francisco openly homosexual to eliminate confusion and correct discriminatory phrasing in the california constitution that contradicts state law.

Um of course there have been a few folks out here primarily ignored by the mainstream media who've been trying to say for a long time uh that there is more to this than the surface level absurd ridiculous outrageous civil rights argument which has been refuted so many times and most eloquently by especially black women christians who can say wait a minute that's absurd.

And it is of course absurd. The whole civil rights thing is is completely absurd. But there's a reason for all of this and there is a greater reason. It's not just that people are stumbling into this and and it's going to have bad effects here there and everywhere.

But there is there is a everyone who and anyone who would want to destroy a culture and a nature a nation that is has been blessed by a culture that was informed by a christian worldview. This would be the way to do to introduce a level of utter confusion that will fundamentally cripple human flourishing within a particular culture.

And that's what we have here. There is nothing more basic in my recollection than to think of my father and my mother. And i know the difference between the two. Um i think about how for example i would misbehave as a child and my mom would say i'm gonna tell your dad when you get home now.

Why was that relevant. Well because my my dad was the primary person responsible for my discipline and my and if i got hurt the first person i'd read to would be my mom. And that's natural. That's right.

That's that's the way it should be. And i learned about from my dad i learned i saw their interaction and that was an appropriate thing. But i knew who a mother was and i knew who a father was. And i didn't i didn't grow up in a a culture of confusion at that point in time.

But now in california um the leftist secularist nutcases um husbands. And if you do not have wives you don't have marriage. It's all there is to it. Um spouse a and spouse b is not marriage. No father no mother no husband no wife is not marriage.

Call it whatever you want. It's just not marriage never will be never can be. And calling marriage that is absurd ridiculous stupid. On its face it's disgusting. It's depraved. And from a christian perspective it's downright sinful.

It is an act of utter rebellion. There's no question about that no question about that at all. So we already had heard about how for example in certain european countries you have progenitor a and progenitor b.

There was a day when our culture had enough common sense to realize that a a nation that loses track of these things was a nation in great decline great decline. Um but there is tremendous common sense that has been lost in uh in our nation.

And um i believe it to be part of part of god's judgment. If you want an example then of what that has resulted in you have you have california doing away with these things. And then just before program someone career and she's a footballer.

And um says until last season my partner megan harris was a footballer and we played together at lincoln ladies. But her desire to be a mom far outweighed her ambitions in football. So she is the one who can't be by you will never be by you.

And so that's not your child. Oh like oh yes it is. No it isn't. In fact up until just a few years ago people who wanted to have other people's children we locked them up. You know when they snuck into the the uh you know one of the reasons i came out about my sexuality last february was because my partner and i were playing and having a family.

And i am so excited to say we are expecting twins later this year. That is like saying that i remember watching the altimeter on my cycling computer and once it went past 11 990 i knew that was top of loveland pass and uh so we were i was going into rarefied air literally and uh wow you you just you really feel like you can just see forever.

It is sort of the top of the world feeling there's no question about it and it would be like my going to the top of that mountain and looking out over the broad vistas you can just see forever and and deciding you know what i'm gonna fly over all of this i'm just going to jump off of this.

You know there's lots of places if you want to get a good start i rode around a few corners where gone fast enough could have gotten a real good start. Terminal velocity would have been pretty ugly. But um and i'm just gonna spread my wings and fly.

Well i can't do that because um god didn't didn't give me wings don't have them can't do it. It's against nature. I'm a human being not a bird. But we've lost track of that nature thing of recognizing what we are.

And so now you've got two women and uh my partner and i were planning on having a family and i'm so excited to say we are expecting twins later this year. You know when i told people that my wife and i were expecting that had a special meaning.

This is an insult to that meaning that i expressed to others an insult. Um because what she means is we underwent an expensive um medical procedure that has artificially begun pregnancy in one of us. Um and uh it's going to result in that child someday wondering who those twins actually someday wondering who their real father is.

Because casey stoney is not a father will never be a father cannot be a father. And if they dare tell these twins that their actual mother who bore them is actually their father. Is that not child abuse on a level that is absolutely perverse it is.

It is absolutely amazing. So one of them decides that they're gonna get pregnant um while the other one keeps playing football football. I am in a very fortunate position where i can become a mom in women's football without it impacting my career negatively.

Oh the selfishness the absolute self-centeredness of homosexuality. It truly is narcissism childish narcissism. It's just well it's not gonna i can become a mom. No you won't. You're not a mom never will be a mom.

You may be taking care of kids but you're not a mom. That word has meaning. And i've said over and over again isn't there anybody anymore. Isn't there anyone anymore who actually values something called motherhood fatherhood.

Don't don't those things mean something. Well just because they're coming up with a different meaning doesn't mean it impacts me. Yes it will. What about these twins. What if you're a parent right now and one of your offspring falls in love with one of these twins raised by two lesbians.

Remember last program uh the program well last program i was on or was it the one from colorado. I can't remember now. But i was it was talking about the little kid who um is undergoing sex change therapy at like age 11.

So he won't go through puberty because he was raised by two lesbians. Child abuse plain and simple. That's all there is to it. You can deny it. You can close your eyes to it. It's amazing amazing. Professing themselves to be wise.

This is foolishness. On a level that is truly truly difficult to begin to comprehend it really is really is all right. We have phone callers. The phone lines are open. 877 -753 -3341 877 -753 -3341. And uh let's talk to kyle.

Hi kyle.

Counsel to a Mormon Caller on Reading the Book of Mormon and the Bible

Hi how are you doing. Good for you. Um you know we're just talking and getting to know each other but you know the rubber and so i committed to them. I will read the book of mormon and you know. Then i'm saying okay you need to read john now you need to read roman.

But i want you to come along with me as well. Um and i'll comment on it. They'll only let they'll only let their leaders will only let. That go. So far by the way. Well i've i've met the leader and and i don't think he likes me.

But um which actually at the end of it i'll be honest with you i i'm actually i'm fairly heartbroken uh because i really do care about these guys. Yeah i understand. For some reason i don't have the compassion for the leader.

I don't know why. Well i understand that you you.

See these guys as as the ones who've been deceived and those who have authority over them as the ones.

Who have been doing the deceiving. I mean i've run into some of some of the people from their ward when we i take them out to dinner and stuff and it's like i'm in my in my heart i just like let them go do what you want to do but let them go.

But um i've seen some uh some of the lectures you on youtube they're very helpful but rather than kind of jump into the you know the the standard things i think people get into. Um i just started looking at it and and i i tried to take some things that i'd seen where you're going through the quran and saying listen that the author of the quran didn't really understand the bible.

Right. And i think that you see the same thing. Have you seen the same thing in the book of mormon where. Well it's like off comment and you say there's no way. You know my point to them is listen tom clancy from book to book doesn't get his characters wrong.

So the holy spirit can't. Right. Right. And so on one hand you know like there's offhand comments that if i'm reading it correct jeremiah would have said lehi was a bad fig because he left jerusalem instead of accepting the discipline to go where nephi is bragging that just as moses smoked the rock and provided water for all of israel.

So i'm doing blah blah blah and that's the great downfall of moses ministry he didn't go into the promise lane because he struck the rock instead of speak to it. You know and i'm just like there's these offhand comments that the holy spirit could not have inspired you know.

So there has to be different authors. And i'm just wondering if you if you've kind of taken that. Well yeah. And i've gone through the book of mormon.

Yeah but you got you got to remember a couple things. Uh first of all uh if the two young men with whom you're speaking are like a lot of mormon missionaries though they've been encouraged to so they may not really have read uh the book of mormon.

I mean i remember uh years and years and years ago uh we i was driving and at that time i was driving a 1964 dodge dart. No two body panels were the same color. Uh my my wife to this day uh just shakes her head when she remembers that particular vehicle.

And and uh we were up in provo utah and uh we we pulled into the parking lot of provo temple up there and we ran into this missionary. Little did we know that right down at the end of the of the parking lot was the missionary training center.

We eventually went down there but we ran into this missionary. We started talking to him. He did not even know where the book of abraham was. He had never read it. Uh so he you know you can't necessarily assume a high level of knowledge of the book of mormon or its context on the part of an lds missionary.

It would help if they had it. But you can't necessarily assume that. Secondly you've got to remember the eighth article of faith uh we believe the book of mormon to be the word of god. We believe the bible the word of god as far as it's translated correctly.

So there is a fundamental assumption on the part of the vast majority of of mormons that uh if you if you encounter a contradiction if you encounter something like that then the problems with the bible not with the book of mormon because the book of mormon's most perfect book of any on earth.

So yeah i've also heard like.

Art. Well not arguments but but comments and references to um well it's basically we believe these three books but we really want to submarine the bible as much as possible. Yeah. Uh-huh you know it's like it's almost like that's a ruse.

I'm really i'm using i'm using the word the bible and i'm using jesus name to kind of get me in the door with some people but you know that's that's not the focus that i'm hearing and it's it's very disheartening.

Oh yeah there's no question.

About that and by the way it keeps something in mind kyle about the the leaders. I believe me i know exactly how you feel about that. Um but those leaders were probably missionaries themselves. And what you're seeing is generation after generation of deception.

And you know those leaders are just as you know. Well i think it's very well described by paul. Deceiving and being deceived. So so they've been deceived and as they've been deceived they now deceive others.

And then you become truly established in your deception. And and then you become the one deceiving others. That's that's one of the horrible things about untruth. That's one of the reasons that you have such strong terminology in second thessalonians.

If you will not love the truth you'll be caused to love a lie. And we just don't take that very seriously. But no that is a good direction to go. But eventually you cannot avoid uh going after the testimony and establishing the reality of objective truth.

You have to eventually uh say to them look you know the testimony you've been taught to to look to your feelings to your emotions to pray about these things. Uh the reality is that the scripture says the heart is desperately sick and wicked and deceitful who can understand it jeremiah 17 9.

And that there is a way it seems right into a man at the end there of the ways of.

Death and proverbs 14 12 and difference here. But when you start unpacking what you mean by those words yeah then you realize oh we're actually just speaking different languages. Big time big time.

There's there's such a huge language barrier. If you don't know the language barrier uh you'll sit there for hours talking talking talking and uh then a few hours later realize we haven't been talking at all.

And that's that's a real problem. So yeah pray for him. You know you may never get to him again. I mean i i've i've i've had situations where i've really gotten to know missionaries and they've they've been sent home they've been transferred someplace else.

Uh the uh those folks the mission president knows when someone has gotten too close to somebody that's why they'll switch people up. Normally their their tendency is they will not allow someone to meet for more than just a few times unless they're seeing real progress toward that person expressing desire to be baptized.

That would be that would be different. But uh other than that they they know that if they allow this kind of relationship to go too far it ends up bad for them and so you know you can only pray for them.

I've sometimes run into some of the missionaries that i had encounters with sometimes.

I don't i've got to put them in god's hands at that point i understand but anyways but thank you for the you know the stuff uh especially on youtube you know people do watch it and it's.

Thank you all. Right. Thanks kyle. Okay. Bye-bye all right. Bye-bye. Yeah i still uh i still look at those uh at those missionaries when they go by. And man i'll tell you now uh i'm in the in the in between time where over the next decade and a half or so they're going to become the same age as my grandchildren right now.

They're younger than they're a good bit younger than my kids right now. They're almost 10 years younger than my kids. Yeah when i see it i i and when i first met with my first two more missionaries elders reed and reese uh i was younger than i was younger than i think i was.

Right in between elder reed and reese if i recall correctly so we were about the same age but i was younger than one of them uh because i got married at 19 and uh my wife was 18. So we got we got a nice good early start.

Calvinism, Molinism, and the Charge That God Makes People into Robots

Um so anyway let's uh continue on with colin in uh.

California. Hi colin. Hey how's it going. Can you hear me. Okay i sure can. Thanks for everything you do really appreciate it. I wanted to make some. You mean you. Thank you. Thank you're thanking me for riding riding up mountains on a bike because i do that.

Yeah and listening and studying while.

In fact let me tell you colin you know what i was listening to. I it was one of the most amazing rides in my life. I rode from evergreen to the top of mount evans. Now most people don't know what that is but mount evans is 14 160 feet above sea level at the parking lot.

And you know what i was listening to all the way up that beautiful fantastic gorgeous mountain. Bob enyard bob enyard. And i will always remember that for the rest of my life. The one thing you'll remember exactly where you were when you said each and every thing uh almost almost almost uh but it was it was.

I would rather have been listening to like some spurgeon sermon or something if i had to be listening to anything.

At all. But anyhow. Uh go ahead. Yeah it's in light of uh it's a little late at this point a couple months ago the molinism stuff you covered i guess this would. This would obviously apply to any non-calvinist view of the knowledge of god.

I wanted to you know respond to this accusation that comes along and basically says you know calvinism's view of the sovereignty of god makes man into a quote-unquote robot. Right. Um you know first of all i i understand.

I don't quite understand why a lot of calvinists shy completely away from that accusation. Because after all that they don't mean literal robot. All they mean is that god has determined all things including our actions which we fully affirm.

So uh i just simply when i when i i think i think i know why.

I mean we both know why. Because it it takes the humanity out. But it does so by misrepresenting where we're coming from. And i'm a little bit concerned that a lot of reform folks don't know how to respond to that.

I mean my my standard response to that is the incarnation demonstrates that's not the case because jesus entered into our human experience. And he didn't become a robot. Um so so obviously the reality of our actions in time are meaningful to god.

Or he would not have decreed his own interaction with us in time. I i think i think that's one of the reasons i took the open theism debate is that that's one of the fundamental problems that bob enyard has and his his followers is that he does not recognize the the richness of reform theology.

He takes the robot perspective as well. But i run into a lot of calvinists that really don't realize the richness of of what we're really affirming. Uh because because they they look so much to the decree that they don't at the same time see that the decree is what makes the temporal interaction of god and his people and us with each other.

And and justice and righteousness and and everything else. That's what gives it the very matrix of meaning uh that it can have. And and that's what allows christianity to be different than the greek and pagan religions where you had the fates.

That was one of the things about enyard that drove me crazy is he. He thinks that we believe that god is controlled by fate. He's like the great zeus or something. It couldn't be farther from the.

Truth couldn't be farther from the truth. The robot accusation stems from somebody else to do whatever made them into. You know. Right. Concluded. You know we are. We might. I can assure you that the the almighty god of the universe's control over you is far more exhaustive than any amount of control you could ever have over a robot even if you programmed it to do exactly what you do.

After all you didn't. You didn't create out of nothing the parts that make up the robot. You don't have its existence. You don't have an understatement. I mean i i appreciate the point you raised about stripping the humanity because that's true they're getting at.

Is that this brings me to my main point calvinism. If calvinism's view of the sovereignty of god makes man to be a robot then the the armenians view of the sovereignty of man is actually making god up to be a repeater.

Yeah. And he's choosing the best possible second best or third best. Problem lies is when you place god into a reactionary position you turn him into a robot. And the armenian when it comes to the foreknowledge of god he's conveniently left out.

And then anything he's knowing about his creation know that he's going to his first knowing that he's going to act from to begin with. And i guess that would be the grounding objection. Well there's there's no.

Question in my mind that i think what you're getting at here is that really. And i and i know my mulanist friends and my armenian friends if they would even use the term friends are are going to be upset about this.

But there is a fundamental lack of of trust of god expressed in both systems because both systems are all designed around maintaining a way where man can control god rather than being fully controlled by god.

Because there's a lack of trust that god will do what is right in uh in in everything the judge of all the earth will do right. And that's really what i see in this. Is that the the overriding thing in open theism or in mulanism whatever it is why did those systems come into existence to protect not the freedom of god but the freedom of man and the.

Result is to put constraints on god. Yeah you can't have. You know when it's all about the reactionary position if you don't start in the logical order of this entire discussion then you're starting with man.

We're not going to use that term. But you know best possible worlds where they come from. Man is coming first in that logical order. Now he's just reacting in the best possible way that he can. And where's the freedom in that.

I mean really that's that make what accusation can actually be flipped around. Even the standard. But even even if you take any given situation and have the standard armenian well god knows how to bring good out of bad right.

Well god being god might have a trillion different possible ways to bring good out of a particular. Gonna choose the best possible way right. I mean he's got to choose one of them. He's got to choose to act in one way.

But.

What's the problem there. Yeah. Well he's reactionary. Yeah he's not reactionary. But you also have to ask the question who gets to determine what the best possible way is. At least the reformed person can say god has a purpose that purpose is self-glorification and he is going to work that out.

To uh to to provide that. And i don't know what the ultimate purpose is in in an armenian bare foreknowledge perspective. And and there's all sorts of disagreement amongst uh uh amongst molinus as to exactly you know why i don't necessarily take the william lane craig view here and all this kind of all this kind of silliness.

And uh so yeah it's um they're they're. I think it is good to have a way of reversing the accusation. I certainly have suggested that in a number of contexts uh especially in our culture today. But it's uh it's a good good.

Direction to go there too. All right. Okay. Thanks colin. Thank you all right. All right. Bye-bye.

Debate Cross-Examination and the Brown Palace Hotel

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one um the video i did not know this but um berean warrior posted a lot of the uh of the debate um and i had only seen the one uh my cross-examination of bob enyard.

But the uh the actual uh 15 minutes of my my being cross-examined now uh yeah. Oh you want me to do that all right. Sure. Fine manuel go ahead. Uh i i i'll be honest with you manuel um i doubt you could last 30 seconds without losing control but if you want to try we've done it before.

Um we'll give it a shot uh but we just have a some of you know that we've had a regular caller over the years and have tried to reason on the subject of the trinity and have always failed. But hope springs anew.

That are my memories. Bad. That's probably more my memories getting back than anything else anyway. Uh but um i i had hoped uh that this this video is up there and i i found it just before the uh just for the program started while rich was running around trying to did you look at amin .org.

No why not. Because it was there. I didn't post it. Amin .org. Yeah. Well okay i was on it. I had all three of the ones that were recorded but by the end of the first day well i know that the entire i i know you mentioned you put the the big one up uh is homosexuality compatible.

No that's that's different one. The one that they posted that has the entire debate this is. No no this was the uh the day after the debate um this one started rolling in and he started working on the he actually posted first he attended my talk wednesday night and i didn't even know about this.

So okay. Well he he first posted you cross-examining bob right. And then he was working on and i posted that and while i'm posting that one he's uploading bob cross-examining you and then later that day someone else had um uh recorded uh i think it was bob's intro and and your intro.

So no bob's intro and you're closed something like that. So yeah. Well uh so here's here's this section. Do you have it. Do you have it available because i'm sending it to you. You've got it. Okay. I'm not sure how much of it i'm going to play uh but look here's the background.

There's one of the reasons i do this to give you some of the background we got. This is the brown palace hotel in downtown denver. Beautiful place. I've never been there before but i've seen pictures of it.

It's sort of a landmark in downtown denver. So it's good location. Uh the debate was set up nicely. Um you know the moderator who's sitting here in the shot did not know me at all and did not. I i don't think he knew bob i'm not sure but he was you know uh in between and uh so he he could be fair but i just don't think he even knew what to do.

Because we met beforehand we stood right over. Well if you're looking at this video shot it would be to my left to be the right of the camera which is where my desk was. And we stood there and we had we talked and we had an agreement and i said look when you do cross examination what i ask first i said we need to be very strict on the times i said i will never go over.

Here's my timer. Uh rich mocked me for buying my 15th debate timer or something because i didn't have one in my bag. Um but uh any i can say one thing with absolute certainty you go through the 137 138 some odd moderated debates that i've done since 1990 and you will find that there is one person who is very punctual and i consider that to be an act of respect for the audience.

And my opponent bob was not overly punctual even though he's a radio guy which he knows all about hard breaks and things like that. But anyway then we i specifically addressed cross examination and i said you ask questions.

You do not argue. You do not come back and make another point. You use your questions to make your points. But you are asking questions only. And we agreed to that. Let's listen just a couple minutes then we'll take the call.

Uh let's listen just a couple minutes of this and we'll see very quickly uh how this was really going. Because the change would require an alteration in the actual divine being there was no alteration.

If you understand the doctrine of hypostatic union change and action are not the same thing. And that's one of your fundamental misunderstandings of your ability in all of your lectures and everything that i've listened to.

You assume that if god acts in time that involves. Okay. Let me ask.

You a question um you said an action um is it isn't god the sun today and forever in the future. Uh have. Doesn't he have two natures a divine and human nature forever. Yes. Okay. So that's not an.

Action right. That's a state. He took an action in joining a human nature. He took an action in today.

And forever he has two natures. So you agree that eternally past god the sun only had one nature. Of course. And today god the sun has two natures. That's right. And so you don't think that's a change no.

Because it did not involve a change of divine being which is the only assertion we make in regards to divine immutability. So nature did not change the muslim debate you mentioned 2013.

That was titled can can god become a man. Um which one are you referring to. I've done a number. Well the one in 2013 that was titled can god become a man. And so uh you're asserting that when god the sun lowered himself and became a man that was not a change the divine being did not change in his view so it was an action that god.

Okay i think the only reason you're saying that is because you're struggling between the omnis and ems and jesus and god the sun becoming flesh. Is that a because. Uh. Okay i'll go on to the next beginning with god's freedom.

This question asks if god has libertarian free will jesus said that he could call on the father to save him from the cross. Do you believe that the father could have saved jesus from the cross if he determined to do so.

Yes of course at the. At the moment that jesus said that he could call on the father to save him from this hour. Do you believe at that moment that jesus that the father could have saved jesus.

Well again you're asking a question about a decision that was made before the creation of time playing out within time. This is something i've tried to explain to you and so the divine decree will not be changed.

If god had chosen to do things differently when he created that he could have done things differently. But could. Time is once time is created that's the way it's going to be. Could god.

Have decreed it differently when he decreed the way things would go could he have decreed it.

Differently god was absolutely free to glorify that the triune. God father son spirit could have chosen to glorify themselves in whatever way they find best. So god was free. The future was not.

Exhaustively settled in eternity past until god decreed how many weeds would be outside in the parking lot. Of course. Okay. So you reject that eternal. That exhaustive foreknowledge is an internal attribute of god because god was free to decree whichever way he wanted to.

No sir you've.