Dennis Prager vs Matt Fradd | HEATED Debate on P*rn | Pastor Reacts

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Warning, this conversation is very frank. So maybe a warning here moving forward, we're gonna get into some very difficult scenarios.

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Maybe you should put the kids to bed on this one. God made male sexual nature as variety oriented.

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I take that to mean that men need a variety of women to be satisfied. Where does the Bible teach that?

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That is what Frad should ask Prager because the answer is, wait for it, nowhere. If you seek other people besides your spouse in order to be satisfied, what theology are you speaking now?

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Let's say they looked at bathing suit ads, not at Prayboy. They looked at that other beautiful women together.

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Ladies, do we have any ladies in the audience? Would you be okay with this kind of behavior from your husband?

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Now, is there some kind of ontology to what Jesus is saying here? Are we held accountable by God for adultery if we look at a woman with lust for her?

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Or is there something else that's going on here? In order to answer this question, you have to be aware of rabbinic teaching in the first century because this is a very common practice for rabbis in Jesus' day.

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Welcome back, friends. Got a brand new video for your consideration. If you are brand new to the channel, I am so glad that you are here.

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My name is Nate Sala, and my job is to help you become the effective Christian that you were meant to be. Jesus gave all of his disciples a command as they got out into the world and spread the kingdom of God.

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He said, be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. And that's what we're attempting to do at this channel right here.

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Today, we're gonna have a very difficult conversation centering on a debate between Dennis Prager and Matt.

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Is it fraud, Frad? It better not be fraud. The issue is, is it okay for folks to look at pornography?

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I take it, is it okay particularly for married persons to look at those things? If even the title of this video makes you a tad uncomfortable, then

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I'm right there with you, okay? But there's no way around this. This particular issue is a huge problem right now in our society, and Christians need to know how to think through this, not only well, but biblically.

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So I have plans to show you what the New Testament actually teaches with regard to lusting and sinning.

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I know that a number of you have probably grown up in churches and heard Jesus saying, well, you know what? If you looked at a woman with lust in your heart, you have already committed adultery with her, and that has caused you a lot of concern and anxiety.

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Well, I want you to stay tuned to the end of the video because I'm going to walk through that passage together with you and explain what

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I think Jesus is really doing there. But first, let's go ahead and jump into the discussion. Also, I wanna say that I think

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I agree with you that obviously adultery and lust are different things.

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If they weren't different things, we wouldn't have two separate words for them. But yeah. Also, which comes somewhat of a revelation to my

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Christian friends, is there's no, there is no sin of this.

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There are 613 laws in the Torah. None of them say do not lust. You can't covet. Covet is a very different concept than lust.

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Covet means you want to take what belongs to another, and it is a very simple proof that it doesn't mean lust, covet.

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You don't lust after a house or a donkey, one presumes. Well, okay.

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Then what does covet mean in the Hebrew if it doesn't mean lust? So, I mean, that's actually two questions, really.

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One is, what does lust mean when Jesus uses that word in Matthew chapter five?

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And the second question is, what does covet mean in the Hebrew if the definition does not include lust? What's interesting is, if you go to Proverbs chapter six, verse 25, which

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I take it Prager accepts the wisdom of Solomon, right? So, right now I'm trying to find common ground between someone like me and someone like Dennis Prager, okay?

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So Proverbs 6 .25 uses the same Hebrew word for covet, only this time, watch this.

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It says, do not desire her beauty. Desire, there's the word, covet. Do not desire her beauty in your heart, who is her, the evil woman.

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Don't desire her beauty, nor let her capture you with her eyelids. For on account of a harlot, one is reduced to a loaf of bread and an adulteress hunts for the precious life.

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So clearly the Jewish Bible that Prager accepts uses the same word for covet that we find in the 10 commandments that say, do not covet, do not desire your neighbor's wife.

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But Prager says that coveting is different from lust. I don't see how. It just means to desire, to crave.

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I just don't see the Bible making a distinction between coveting and lust. And yet you're not allowed to covet those either.

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But do you make a distinction between sexual desire and lust? Do you see a distinction there? No, I don't. Okay, so therefore, if you don't see a distinction between those two things,

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I can see why you would think it insane to tell somebody they shouldn't lust. I don't know how you sexually desire your wife and have no lust for her.

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Oh, I do. Okay. I don't see how you can romantically desire your wife, but not have lust for her either.

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So I'm on Prager's side now. How quickly the turntables have turned.

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Well, well, well. How the turntables. I will say this.

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I don't think it's beneficial to parse terms apart from the teaching of God's word. So it would be great if this discussion hinged on Bible verses that both

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Christian and Jew would accept. Kind of like what I just did a moment ago in Proverbs. So I would think that - That's interesting.

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I would think that lust - So you think, so lust - Okay, yeah, you're right. This is interesting. I've never confronted it quite this way.

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So lust - Lust reduces the subject to an object. It subordinates the dignity of the person to the good of a selfish pleasure.

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It's also a distorted sexual act. So it's an act which is contrary to human nature or to the end of the sexual act,

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I suppose. Okay, so if sexual desire - Well, so I totally agree with Matt Frad. And I like how he's parsing this out in this way because I think he's right in the way that these words are used today.

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But the question is, is Frad's definition of lust the Bible's definition? That's literally what

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I would ask if I were having this conversation. Remember, friends, if you are a student of God's word, you cannot lean too far over the skis of scripture.

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And so your definitional questions have to be grounded in the Bible or else the conversation will quickly drift away from it without anyone noticing.

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The Hebrew word for covet that we find in the 10 Commandment verses about coveting your neighbor's wife.

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So like Exodus 20, verse 17, Deuteronomy 5, verse 21, you shall not covet your neighbor's house.

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You shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male slave or his female slave or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

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This word hamad, it has a few meanings. It means to delight in, to crave, to take pleasure in, and yes, to lust after.

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There's a connotation to hamad of not simply longing or craving for something but craving in order to take it, which

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I think is why you see the word used both for a neighbor's wife but also for your neighbor's possessions.

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The reason I'm bringing this up is I don't see the Bible treating the word lust, which we typically understand to mean craving someone in a sexual way.

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I don't see the Bible treating that as bad. Well, put it this way. The Bible only seems to treat this as bad if done outside the parameters of marriage, which means that a husband can lust after his wife.

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Now, Frad obviously disagrees with this, but I think a lot of Christians would disagree with Frad on this one. Aaron, lust are different.

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Can you sexually desire a woman you're not married to and not lust for her? Yes. Oh, well.

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I would think so. Okay, I haven't heard that from a Christian before. Because I suppose there were like three stages, if I would think of it.

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Like if I board an airplane and I sit next to a beautiful woman and I'm attracted to her sexually, how could

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I not be? Okay. That's beyond my control. Now, the next step could be, now what do

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I do with that? Do I sit here and fantasize about what I could do with her sexually? Like at that point, the will is engaged and that is something within my control.

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Right. So I think it is. So it seems like Frad draws a line between desire and lust, all right?

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This line in the sand is going to become extremely important, I think, in this discussion, right?

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Where is the line? That's probably the question that everybody should be asking throughout this video. It seems like to Frad, you can desire a woman, but not lust after her.

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Again, in my mind, I'm trying to square this with the Bible and I don't see a distinction there between those two things.

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Maybe you could draw the line at attraction and lust. And I think maybe there is a biblical distinction there.

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It's actually found in James chapter one. And I'm gonna go there towards the end of the video. So stick with me.

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But I don't think I agree with Frad here on where that line is. I think I'm more in line with Prager right now.

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It's important to make that distinction. And I think that might be part of what drives some Christians neurotic. If they think, well, sexual desire is a sin.

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Can't sexually desire anybody who isn't my wife. Well, I think not only Christians, but I think in some cases with Jews too, that it does drive people to be neurotic.

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It's like if I said to you, don't think of a pink elephant. Well, better, you're in a restaurant, don't think of food.

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That's a real life. Very bad. Stop it. Yeah. You'd go crazy. That's right. And by the way, the more you don't think about it, the more you think about it.

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So there's that element too. Agreed. So I differ with you and I did with the father.

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And by the way, I mentioned this is very important to note. What accredited is to Franciscan University, A, having me,

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A, as a religious Jew, obviously doesn't believe in Christ. I'm not a Christian. And B, that they discussed the openly with me at the university, what they heard me say on Daily Wire.

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But he did raise this issue about sexual objectification and that reduces the human being as one created

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God's image, et cetera. Just what you said now. And I have a different view of that.

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Sure. I think this, I suspect you may have not heard this before in one of your podcasts.

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Here we go. From any of your guests. I think that in the bedroom, if a loving husband and who is a loving husband, and I have a word to say about what a loving husband is, a loving husband who sees his wife in the bedroom as a sexual object,

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I will be totally open with you. I have said on the radio, if after X number of years married, your husband still sees you as a sex object, you are both very lucky.

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I would say it depends what you mean by sex object. If what you mean is your husband continues to find you sexually desirable,

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I would agree with you. If what you mean is the man essentially treats his wife as a warm body to masturbate in, not taking into account her feelings, her desires.

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Oh, of course. But that's not objectification. Warning. This conversation is very frank.

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So maybe a warning here moving forward. We're gonna get into some very difficult sort of scenarios.

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Maybe you should put the kids to bed on this one. I personally did not think I would be listening to this video and reacting to it when

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I started my week off. So let me just go ahead and say that. Patient has a dirty name.

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He said he doesn't, the father said, one shouldn't even objectivize baseball players.

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And it was an excellent analogy. I had thought of that myself, but I do objectivize the baseball player.

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I'm not sure if I agree with him. Okay, but it doesn't mean that you would automatically mistreat the baseball player.

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That's right, but I'm in a different relationship with the baseball player than I am with the one I'm married to. Correct, but there is a place in the totality of a relationship.

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So here is my motto, because I talk about men and women every week for an hour on my radio show, and I have for about 20 years, and that is you make love outside the bedroom and you have sex inside the bedroom.

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I think it's a romanticization of the sex act to say that it's always making love.

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It's okay to make lust. It's okay to have some objectification. That doesn't mean you're mistreating her.

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Yeah, I think I'd wanna know what you mean by objectification. Because a man - I had the sense that you're using language to convey something that I might agree with.

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Yes, you might. I think you really might. I agree with you. Yeah, what Prager is saying is difficult to track because I can't think of a biblical passage that talks like Prager.

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You know, like I can't think of a biblical passage that sounds like him as he's saying what he's saying right here. So then why not just say the same thing more biblically?

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First Peter 3 .7 says, you husbands, in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way as with a weaker vessel since she is a woman and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life so that your prayers will not be hindered.

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In other words, don't be self -centered. Don't be self -seeking. Seek the benefit of your spouse.

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Seek her good. Hold her in high esteem. Give her honor as your fellow heir of God's grace.

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Right? Paul says, husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her so that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.

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He who loves his own wife loves himself for no one has ever hated his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ also does the church.

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So why not just speak like this? You know, husbands are to honor their wives. They are not to be self -centered and self -seeking in their expressions of love towards their wives.

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Instead, they are to sanctify and nourish and cherish their wives, even in the act of making love.

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Does that take the excitement and fun out of sex? Not at all. What I'm saying exposes the motive behind what takes place in the bedroom for married couples.

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And maybe Prager and Frad and I are saying the same thing. I'm just trying to say it with an eye on key biblical passages.

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It certainly doesn't mean mistreat. It's not even implied, but any more than with the baseball player.

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And you'll say, well, I have a different relationship with the baseball player, but you're right. Sex is its own world.

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I don't like to romanticize sex. Sex is many, many things.

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Sometimes it's love. Sometimes it's just pure sex. When it's pure sex and not just love, there is an element of objectification.

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I'm crazy about her legs. Is that a statement of love?

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What do you mean? You don't love legs? What do you mean by love, right? So I would say Aristotle and Aquinas would say that to love is to will the good of the other for their sake.

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So I don't will my wife's good for my sake. It's not like I say, honey, I really need you to go to CrossFit so I can lust after you.

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But if I want her to get healthy for her sake, then this is love. So I would say - If she says to you, honey, there's a certain thing that you could do for me sexually that will really turn me on.

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And it may not really turn you on. Are you being objectivized? Or are you doing it because you love her and because she wants it?

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Well, first of all, she's asked a question in which I presumably am free to decline. Oh, she's not free to decline.

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That's coercion and there's no room for that. Objectification and coercion are not the same thing. So if she's asking me a question in which I'm free to decline.

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Right, so honey, would you put on this sexy outfit for me? Are you okay with that?

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Me? Yeah. Buddy, hell, that's a question I didn't expect you to ask me. Well, you opened it up. I would not be okay with that.

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That's interesting. I don't think. Even in the bedroom. It's not that I'd be morally opposed to it.

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It's just that I'd feel uncomfortable with it. Well, my view is that the more comfort that the couple has, the better the relationship.

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Let me tell you how spiritual I am. I have like four jokes floating around in my noggin right now. And I'm not gonna say a single word, all right?

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This has gotta be hands down the most uncomfortable video that I've ever reacted to. And I looked at Christian parody music videos, guys.

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Stop it, stop it. But we're all up in this now, you know?

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And again, stay tuned to the end. I'm gonna share the biblical passage that I think will help you understand the difference where the line is between sinning and not sinning when it comes to lust.

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So, you know, if you're with me on this and you haven't done so, I know I'm supposed to say this more. Please like this video, subscribe to the channel.

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I'm really bad with talking about these things. But listen, if I've earned your subscription, please don't forget to help me because we're trying to get

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Wise Disciple out to more and more people. And I really appreciate you guys. I think that's right. So long as comfort doesn't lead to what

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I would consider to be sexually perverse acts. Well, why is it sexually perverse to wear a sexy outfit?

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It's not, and that's why I said I'm not morally opposed to it. But if you're saying that - Oh, okay, so your discomfort is personal. That's fair.

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That's not an area I need to get into. One thing I would love you to get into, because you did say this in the email, is you think that the widespread proliferation of pornography is destroying teenagers.

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Help people hear this side of it. Well, I gave an example tonight. So I'm very friendly with a young woman.

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She's 23, very, very close to her. People could guess who it is because I do a podcast with her.

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So she is so open, God bless her. I don't think she would object to my telling this story.

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In fact, maybe it was even discussed on one of our podcasts. We're very, very open. So she was on a date and they were both attracted.

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It was not the first date. It was the second date. And they kissed, that's all they did, they kissed. And in the midst of the kiss, he grabbed her neck like this.

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And even me, Mr. Open, was taken aback. And so was she.

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To her credit, when she took his hand away, she said either then or later that evening or later another time, why did you do that?

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And he, to his credit, was open enough to say, I thought you would like it. That's what I see on the internet.

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That's a bad thing. The number of young men who learn about women through porn and not real life is a very scary thing that has developed.

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So I am as worried as you are about the pornification of society.

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When I answered the question that Jordan Peterson asked, which came out of nowhere, I'm not blaming him in the least, it was a perfectly legit question, but it came out of nowhere.

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I was thinking still in the way I have always defined it as Playboy magazine. That to me, that was porn.

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The stuff that is out there now is not what I think of when I'm asked the question. And so.

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Okay, so fair enough, right? There is a technical distinction between a magazine and a video of sex acts, okay?

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But again, square this with the Bible's teaching. I don't see a difference in terms of sinning or not sinning when it comes to a magazine.

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In other words, oh, it's a magazine, so therefore it's not a sin. Or, oh, that's a video, well, therefore that is a sin.

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No, the Bible doesn't give room for this kind of attitude. The sexual expectation that God places on his creation comes down to marriage.

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If you are with your spouse in the ways that we've already discussed, you're following the biblical expectation.

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If you're looking at someone who is not your spouse, you're already in trouble. I mean, there are a number of biblical passages that talk about uncovering the nakedness of other people who are not your spouse, and the

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Bible says that this is prohibited. And if you think about it, the only time that nakedness was a good thing was in the

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Garden of Eden. Genesis chapter two, verse 25, and the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.

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If you think about the significance of that past, the last several words right there in that verse, they were not ashamed.

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I think you see the significance of that phrase because if you are naked in front of others, you should be ashamed. Nakedness now is not appropriate in this world, but it is appropriate in the confines of a marriage in the sight of God.

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As a matter of fact, I propose that the nakedness we find in Genesis is meant to communicate the level of intimacy that mankind once had with God, and we no longer have that.

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We can certainly reflect that level of intimacy with our spouses because our marriages are meant to reflect our relationship with God.

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I just literally read the apostle Paul saying that in Ephesians chapter five. But we also pervert, we distort that intimacy when we give that kind of intimacy away to people outside of our married spouse.

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That's why I think you'll find all these passages prohibiting people to uncover the nakedness of another person in the

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Bible. Look at Leviticus 18 verses six in this whole entire chunk of text right here, right?

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None of you shall approach any blood relative of his to uncover nakedness. I am Yahweh. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father.

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That is the nakedness of your mother. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's wife, the nakedness of your sister, the nakedness of your son's daughter, the nakedness of your father's wife's daughter.

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You shall not uncover her nakedness. I mean, this whole chunk of text, and this isn't the only place in the

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Bible where this is, is running down the list of what not to do.

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All of this uncovering the nakedness of are prohibition passages. Now, a lot of people think that uncovering the nakedness of someone else is a euphemism for having sex with that person.

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So if that's all the phrase means, then it seems okay to literally look at someone naked as long as you don't have sex with them.

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To that, I would say, that doesn't explain the usage of the phrase uncover the nakedness of someone everywhere else in the

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Bible. I don't think sex is the best explanation for what Ham did to Noah, for example.

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But the other thing I would say is this, what is the reason for the euphemism in the first place?

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What is the reasoning behind choosing the word nakedness in the euphemism, right? Isn't the euphemism only appropriate if we recognize that nakedness itself is inappropriate?

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That's what I'm trying to say. And if I'm right about this relationship that we find in the

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Garden of Eden between nakedness and intimacy, and its reflection of God's relationship with mankind, well, then the euphemism itself reminds us that nakedness is inappropriate outside of marriage.

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So that's all really a long way of saying, I don't think playboy is unsinful to look at.

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It's still a sin for people. So Prager is not helping himself here. I did say this to the father tonight, and I'm sure it shocked everybody there.

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Did you ask him? No, keep going. I was about to make a bad joke. You'll get a charge out of this intellectually.

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It'll blow your mind, I think. So my dad was an Orthodox Jew, modern Orthodox admittedly, but Orthodox, never drove on the

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Sabbath, never ate a non -kosher food, wore a yarmulke in the house, sent the kids to yeshiva. I mean, he was the real deal.

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He was the president of the Kingsway Jewish Center, still exists, an Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn, New York.

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And he subscribed to playboy, which shocks Jews as well as non -Jews, to be honest.

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Good. Okay. Yeah. Good. Glad that it does. Yes, okay. Well, wait, wait, wait. If it shocks

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Jews, isn't that a problem? Are we getting a representative Jewish take on pornography from Prager?

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If Jews themselves are shocked by his father's actions here? Or, you know, is this just Prager's take on this issue, but not the typical

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Jewish attitude on this issue? However, so I was raised in a very sexually open home that was also deeply religious, and I never found them conflicting as he didn't.

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And so he was an outlier, I acknowledge, and I am an outlier, I acknowledge. However, I want people to understand, my parents were together 72 years, and they loved each other crazy.

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When she died at 89, he died at 96. He basically, his life ended.

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His screensaver was, I love you Hindi. That was his nickname for her, her name was Hilda. And she knew he got playboy.

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This did not trouble my mother. Oh, that's Mac, okay,

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I'm married to a live wire who was faithful and who loved me, and she was crazy about him, and that was it.

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What would be better? I would really take this story seriously if Prager said, and here's where my father got this attitude from the

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Bible. Turn with me, Matt, to Leviticus chapter whatever, or, you know, turn with me, Matt, to Deuteronomy chapter whatever, you know?

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But that's not what's going on here. So I don't take this anecdote very seriously, and I don't think you should either.

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And I say that, listen, I say that with much respect to Dennis Prager, I think he's a brilliant man, but we just, as avid students of God's word, we cannot lean too far over the skis of scripture.

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And this whole entire conversation needs to be standing on top of the scripture. For your father to love your mother and get playboy, or for your father to say, even though I'm tempted to look at pornography, my wife's body is enough for me, and I'm not going to look at that even though I'm tempted to.

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That's a very fair question. Which is better? I don't have an answer which will, I should give you the answer you want.

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I think you should too. Yes, that's a good point, you do. I don't know what that means, enough.

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As I said, which bothers, it's funny, there were two groups that it bothers, the very religious and the radical feminist.

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When I say that men are variety built in, God made male sexual nature as variety oriented.

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As one, I don't know who put it this way, but one wit put it, a woman. Where does the

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Bible teach that? God made men variety oriented. I take that to mean that men need a variety of women to be satisfied.

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Where does the Bible teach that? Where does God say that this is his desire for men?

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This is what he's implanted in men. That is what Fred should ask Prager. Because the answer is, wait for it, nowhere.

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The fact is God says that a man should be with one woman for life. The picture is clear. Genesis chapter two, verse 24, therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and cleave to his wife and they shall become one flesh.

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Jesus comments on this in Matthew chapter 19, verse six. So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

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What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate. The expectation is one woman for life and you should be fully satisfied with your wife.

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And the same goes for you. If you're a wife, you should be fully satisfied with your husband. Just about every time you find a man taking more than one wife, you see a problem in the

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Bible. Trouble finds this kind of person. Why? Because that's not God's design. So a careful reader of the

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Bible will notice that a man's desire for variety is a sin. A desire for a variety of folks to please someone sexually is giving in to sinful desires.

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It's a distortion of God's design. I think this tells you what you need to know when you listen to Prager.

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He's way off with his comment here and Fred should call him out on it. Loves a man and men love women.

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Now I don't want men to go around loving women. I'm totally opposed to that. I am and insist on my being.

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It's not even debatable that I am faithful to my wife. It's a given. My wife knows that other women are a turn on.

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She knows it. It does not bother her. To my luck,

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I am married to a woman who does not find male sexual nature frightening. Most women do and by the way,

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I understand that. But again, I think we have to make the distinction between sexual arousal and sitting and fantasizing or watching pornography.

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Actually, they looked at it together. And if you, well, that's sad too, I think. I don't, why is it sad? Because I think pornography is a version of the sexual act, which is holy, which is, let me finish, which is

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God's first commandment to humanity. Be fruitful and multiply. It is the most intimate thing two human beings can do together.

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Not watch the office, not go for a walk on the beach. It's the fundamental act that brings about the family, which brings about society.

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I would be offended if you pervert that fundamental act. I don't know why it's, why is it perverting?

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Why is it perversion? Because it usurps the natural end of sexual intercourse. If I eat food and then force myself to throw up,

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I'm usurping. So actually it does more than that though. And I've said this in other videos.

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Marriage is meant to speak theology. Marriage is meant to reflect the relationship we have with God.

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That's what I mean by that. You'll notice biblical passages in the Old Testament where it says, God is a jealous

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God. He doesn't want us worshiping him and any other gods. What is the first commandment,

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Mr. Prager, right? You shall have no other gods before me. Did you know this? Many Jews consider the 10 commandments as a set of marital vows.

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Like if you track the 10 commandments, this is a good exercise when you're done with the video here, you know, you go to like Exodus or Deuteronomy, right, and you just track the 10 commandments.

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It can be read as marital vows given on your wedding day. And whether or not that's correct, the bottom line is

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God's relationship with his people is reflected through our marriages and also vice versa.

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And when God says, don't have any other gods besides me, what he means is be satisfied with me and me alone.

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Let me be enough. This is the same thing that a spouse should be able to say to another spouse.

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You should be fully satisfied. In your spouse. That is why God says marriage is one man, one woman, one flesh for life.

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Be satisfied in what God has given you. And in that sense, let your marriage speak theology.

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If you seek other people besides your spouse in order to be satisfied, what theology are you speaking now?

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I don't think that it's a fair analogy. Let's say they looked at bathing suit ads, not at Playboy.

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Just they looked at that other beautiful women together. And it was okay with my mother.

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Obviously, the assumption is it was okay with my mother. If it wasn't, then it's not a good thing, clearly. The assumption is your mother was okay with it.

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So she never spoke out about this, right? You have to assume she's okay because she never said anything about it. You think she really was okay with this?

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I find that difficult to believe. Ladies, do we have any ladies in the audience? Would you be okay with this kind of behavior from your husband?

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I am more worried about men having to hide their nature.

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See, when you say God has built into their nature a desire for variety, it sounds like you're saying that therefore it would be unnatural to not look at pornography.

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Well, forget the word pornography because it's so loaded. I'm anti -pornography. But if pornography means anything that is arousing, then it could be a bra ad.

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Well, I think I could define pornography like this. I could say material which depicts erotic behavior that's -

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No, not behavior. There's no behavior in Playboy. Okay, well - No, it's not behavior. That's an important distinction.

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I think when you say behavior - Of course there's behavior in Playboy. If someone has disrobed in order to reveal their nakedness for the sake of others to look at, and we understand what happens when someone is looking at Playboy, typically speaking, right?

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That is a behavioral characteristic of what we call being lewd. That is what's called being vulgar.

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Do not for a moment buy the lie that Playboy is tasteful. It's not, ladies and gentlemen. In order to create

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Playboy magazine, you must disobey God's design for mankind. That is not tasteful at all.

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You know, I think you're meaning video or acting out. No, I didn't. That's why I re -correct -

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What do you mean by behavior then? No, I don't, I am not advocative of watching sexual behavior.

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I want to know what you mean by the word behavior, because if I'm going to say it's - Sexual activity between two people.

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Okay, so even a photograph in Playboy of two people engaging in a - But there weren't such, when I and my father got -

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You're opposed to that, but you're okay with a man looking at one naked woman, let's say. Yes, or they weren't even naked then.

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They were covered in their privates. But you're opposed to them looking at anything that might be arousing.

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What if a woman is wearing a regular, what if a man is turned on, which every man is, by an attractive woman in a nice dress?

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That's a turn on. So, no, no, no, please answer. I will. So is that bad with his wife?

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I'm going to answer, but let me unfold this a little bit. I think pornography can sometimes be a difficult thing to define.

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I would say, and let me see if I can redefine it for you, material that depicts something that's intended to sexually arouse or replace a prostitute.

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I mean, the word pornography comes from two Greek words, porne graphpane, which means the writing or the drawing of the prostitutes.

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It's meant to serve an erotic function. But what if the eroticism is then expressed with the wife?

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I'm okay looking at breasts and I'm okay looking at bums. And if you go to the

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Sistine Chapel, you'll see that Catholics are perfectly comfortable with nudity. But I think that nudity can be presented in a way that upholds and expresses the dignity of the person.

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So I could say, okay, I could look at that. And marvel at God's creation and the beauty of woman and the beauty of man.

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But I think I could also look at a lingerie catalog and in my mind, treat this person as a mere object.

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So I would say that in one aspect, I'm okay looking at breasts, let's say

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Sistine Chapel. But in another sense, if I'm looking at a lingerie catalog with the intention of lusting that that wouldn't be okay.

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What if I'm looking at the - What is the difference between some ladies and how they pose for Playboy?

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And the statues of nude women at the Sistine Chapel or anywhere for that matter. It seems like now,

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Frad is agreeing with Prager. Whereas a moment ago, he seems to have had an issue with Prager, right? I mean, using

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Frad's own standard, can't someone look at breasts and bums in Playboy and uphold and express the dignity of a woman?

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So what I'm doing is I'm trying to investigate the consistency of Frad's own comments here. I would say, again,

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God seems very clear about this. Be fully satisfied with your wife, with your spouse.

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If you can somehow look at a naked woman like a gynecologist would, then I suppose you're off the hook.

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But how many men would be able to say such a thing in today's day and age especially? I mean, I can't even say that.

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Lingerie catalog with the intention of getting my wife lingerie. I think the intention does matter, yeah.

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Okay, all right. We're not that far. I'm not advocating this. I know you're not. And I really want that to get -

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Yeah. Yes, it's very important, but I'm so worried. Remember, I come from the woman calling my show.

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I saw pictures on my husband's computer. I'm devastated. So what am

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I supposed to say? You know what? You're right to be devastated. Your husband is a real sinner.

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He treats you as an object. What would you like me to say to her? Here's what I'd like you to say. I think you could,

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I don't think you have to say, I think I would begin by validating her pain.

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I wouldn't dismiss it by, and I'm not saying you did this because I haven't heard this sort of phone call, but I wouldn't dismiss it by saying you're wrong to be hurt.

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I would say there are many things out there that your husband, I'm sure, loves you very much.

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Well, that's my first question to her. And you're right. Does he love you? And is he loving? And do you have a good love life?

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And I, yeah, and so those are all the good things. If the answers are all yes, go on. So if the answers are all. So as a pastor who has counseled a number of folks along these lines with specific regard to looking at pornography,

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I would actually say, well, I mean, I have said this. If you love God and you are a follower of Jesus Christ, there is a solution for you, but you need to want this more than you want to look at pornography because the solution to looking at pornography in order to lust after another woman is going to track along the lines of deepening your intimacy and relationship with God.

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And possibly your wife if they're married. So it's not simply a matter of guarding yourself defensively, although that is important, you know, getting a hold of those apps and programs to track your online usage, for example.

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But the solution is about deepening your love and satisfaction for the proper things.

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And that tracks along a more proactive aspect of fighting against this battle, right?

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It's kind of like the question of how you get over an ex -boyfriend or an ex -girlfriend. What is a good way to get over these kinds of folks?

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And the answer is fall in love with someone else, right? Well, it's the same principle when you struggle looking at pornography.

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The issue is love God more than anything else. And these kinds of sins will fall away.

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That is the strategy that I've used as I've counseled people through this issue.

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And I've watched the struggle fall away from these people's lives just about every single time.

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I'm not exaggerating. This is a much longer conversation to have, especially what that looks like practically and all those things.

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But I'm just saying, the bottom line is, saying it's normal for a person to not be fully satisfied with their spouse and then telling an unhappy spouse to just accept that and even possibly join in with their spouse as they find satisfaction in another person, that's horrible.

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That's a recipe for disaster. Yes, I would say, well, since he loves you and since this bothers you, there are some excellent resources that I'd love to tell you about that could help him be free of pornography.

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Because surely you would say, if a man is looking at pornography and his wife's heartbroken, you're not saying, well, she's wrong to be and he doesn't need to change.

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If she's heartbroken, wouldn't you wanna say to the man, here are some ways that you could quit? Yes, I would wanna say to both of them,

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I understand why you're heartbroken because you think that he loves her more than you or as much as you.

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And I want you to know that's not the case at all. I don't know if that's the only reason she'd be heartbroken. I don't think it's that she loves,

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I think that pornography trains us in selfishness. Yes, so. It also legitimizes.

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So what if he says to her, well, look, you saw lingerie ads and I'm dying to buy you some really cute lingerie.

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Would you be okay with that? I would say that we're verging on what's sometimes called the fallacy of the beard.

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You ever heard of this? Just because you don't know when something begins, it doesn't mean you can't say what a thing is.

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This isn't a beard. But in three months, if I didn't shave, it would be. And just because you don't know when it started doesn't mean you can't say what a beard is.

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And I would say that there are blurry lines. I would agree with you. Like a Victoria's Secret fashion show, is that pornography?

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I'd say probably. What about, but is it less bad than other forms of pornography?

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Yes. Not all pornography is equal. Some pornography can be far more wretched than others. We're really not that far apart.

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These are interesting things to say coming from Frant. And I like actually what he's saying. I'm tracking it as far as it goes.

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My gentle reminder here would be to keep it close to the text of scripture. Okay? Which is interesting because I think the

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New Testament has something to say about where the line is, right? And it is blurry. So let me acknowledge that up front.

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But there does seem to be a line. And the line is not drawn at temptation. It seems like there is a formula to help us understand this issue.

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I wanna see if they bring this up first. So I'll let them finish and then I'll talk about this formula.

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One of my biggest teachings is that there are levels of sin and there are levels of good.

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And that we should not, listen, I don't think this is not a Catholic thing, but many

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Protestants who listen to my show take issue with me when I say that God does not regard stealing a stapler from the office as he does child molestation.

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And they call me up and say, Dennis, love you, but I gotta tell you, a sin is a sin. Yeah, no, we would part ways without.

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I know you would. Yes, I know, I said Catholics do not, Catholics and Jews believe in gradations of sin. Correct. No, Protestants understand that there are gradations of sin as well.

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As a matter of fact, I don't know very many Protestants who think all sins are equal in the eyes of God. I mean, if you just pay attention to what

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God says in the Old Testament, certain sins are abominations, right? Well, I mean, even

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Jesus, right? In John chapter 19, when Jesus stood before Pilate, Pilate said to him, verse 10, do you not know that I have authority to release you and I have authority to crucify you?

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And Jesus responded, look at this, he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.

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Clearly there are sins which are worse than others. The sin of murdering an innocent person is greater than the sin of lying.

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I mean, I think that's just obvious. And a lot of Protestants like myself agree. Okay, so there are gradations in that arena as well.

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Yes, but I would say that just because something is less bad than something else, it doesn't make it good. So if you're saying -

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Okay, I'm not arguing it's good. So if you say - I'm arguing it's not as bad as people often make it out to be.

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I am not arguing that it's good. In an ideal marriage, would my father not have subscribed to Playboy?

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I'll be prepared to say yes, however - Look at you, good job. Yes, yeah, but it doesn't gain you as much as you think because I saw their relationship for seven,

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I didn't see it for 72 years, obviously, but I saw it for the bulk of their life. And the respect with which he treated her -

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I'm sure he did. I'm not making the claim that you have pure, pristine, holy marriage and haven of filth.

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I'm not saying that those are your only two options. Right, okay, so fine, so there are degrees. But if you're saying to the woman, better for him to look at porn than to commit adultery, then what

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I would say there is, it might be less bad, all things being equal, but less bad doesn't make it good.

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And if adultery can be analogized to shooting your marriage in the head, I would say pornography is the slow poisoning of it and that there's a great deal of research that would go to back that up.

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Yeah, but even the way that they're talking about this, because I'm in agreement with Fred, and actually

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I think he's handling himself very well against Prager here, but this way of talking, it just doesn't quite capture the essence of the biblical teaching, in my opinion.

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That's why I say this conversation should be standing on top of the Bible in order to justify the points being raised.

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The whole idea of creation and God's design is God wants us to imitate him.

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He has created us to be his image to the whole world. And if God can look at creation and say it is good, then people should look at what

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God has given them. Marriage is a gift designed by God, and we should be able to look at that and have

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God's reaction. We should say our marriage is good. I am fully satisfied with my spouse.

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That's what's missing from this discussion, and I think it's important. Let me just take the last few minutes

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I have and just turn to two places in the New Testament, okay? Because I think this causes quite a bit of consternation for a lot of Christians who look at the things maybe that Jesus said in Matthew 5, and they kind of scratch their heads over it.

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Jesus does appear to make things much more strict. Jesus says in verse 27, you have heard that it was said, you shall not commit adultery, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

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Now, is there some kind of ontology to what Jesus is saying here? Are we held accountable by God for adultery if we look at a woman with lust for her, you know?

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Or is there something else that's going on here? I think it's helpful in answering this question to keep reading a few more verses.

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So let's just keep reading. Verse 29, but if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

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And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

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Now, we don't have any problem recognizing that what Jesus is doing in verses 29 and 30 is he's speaking hyperbolically out of a cautious concern for folks to be thrown into hell.

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And so the concern here is one of creating safeguards around particular sins.

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So if your right eye makes you stumble, which I suppose stumbling means sinning, to be proactive, tear it right out of your head.

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But wait a second, where's the line there? You ever thought about that? Is the line your eye doing something?

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Or is the line the act of stumbling itself? Let me ask the same question using different words.

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Is the eye doing something? Is that the actual sin? Or is the stumbling itself the actual sin?

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Now, some of you might be thinking, oh, Nate, you're being too particular about an illustration that Jesus was using. I don't think

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I am because this happens also in James. And I'm gonna get there in a moment, but let me just finish the thought here with regard to Jesus.

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If Jesus is speaking hyperbolically about ripping out your eye and cutting off your hands in order to provide safeguards against you actually sinning, then the question is, is it possible that's also what he's doing in verse 27 and 28?

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In order to answer this question, you have to be aware of rabbinic teaching in the first century, because this is a very common practice for rabbis in Jesus' day.

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There is a teaching method called putting a fence around the Torah, and that is well -known. It happened a lot in Jesus' day, and I believe this is what

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Jesus is doing in Matthew chapter five, verses 27 to 30. He's putting a fence around the

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Torah. Well, what does that mean? Well, it means he's giving teachings and he's giving these kinds of rulings in order to prevent folks committing actual sins, actual acts of sin, in order for people to stay far away from actually committing those sins in the first place.

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And why would rabbis do that? Well, it's because Jews believed, and I think Jesus held this attitude as well, that the consequences of sin slope ever downward.

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And so therefore, the time to avoid sin is the moment leading up to the sin itself, okay?

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It's not in the act of sinning, that's when you should start going to yourself, oh, oh my gosh, wait a second. No, it's in the moments leading up to it.

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That's where you need to set those alarms, you know, those bells to go off. It's in the moments that you're close to sin, that's when you need to turn away.

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So I travel quite a bit, and everywhere I go, I rent a car, which is usually a kind of a brand new model.

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And, you know, I'm sitting here rocking a 2016 car, but when I rent a car, these are brand new models, fresh off the lot, right?

48:15

They have all these bells and whistles that are set up, basically in the same way that a rabbi would provide bells and whistles to warn his students.

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So these cars will automatically beep, you know, they'll light up, and sometimes the car itself, because of AI, will put on the brakes if there's another car that's approaching or it's nearby.

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Why? So that you are course correcting before you actually come into contact with another car and hit it.

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That is what Jesus is doing in Matthew chapter five, verses 27 to 30. When Jesus says, when you covet a woman who's not your wife, right?

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Because Jesus was probably speaking in Aramaic, maybe he was speaking in Hebrew, and so I think he's using the same word we find in Exodus chapter 20 and Deuteronomy five, right?

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He was saying the word covet, which remember has this connotation of the definition of craving in order to take for yourself, right?

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Jesus is saying, well then, if that's what you're doing, it's likely gonna happen. And so he's putting a fence around the

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Torah, around Exodus chapter 20 and Deuteronomy five, and he's saying, don't get to the point where it's likely going to happen.

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Stop yourself much sooner. He goes on to say, if necessary, rip your eye out, okay?

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If necessary, cut your hands off. I don't see verse 27 and 28 and 29 disconnected from each other.

49:34

You with me so far? So the inevitable question becomes, well, then where's the line, Nate, right? If you're right,

49:40

Nate, about Jesus putting a fence around the Torah, where's the line where someone actually slips into sin?

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This is where I think we need to go to James chapter one for this. James chapter one, verse 14 says this.

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Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

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There's that word again. This is the same Greek word that Jesus used in Matthew chapter five, verse 28.

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And I think this is meant to be understood in the same way that the Hebrew word covet is understood in Exodus and Deuteronomy, lust, okay?

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Then when lust has conceived, again, this word means desire, has conceived, it gives birth to sin.

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And when sin is fully matured, it brings forth death. Okay, there appears to be a formula here that helps us to reveal where the line is.

50:28

Do you see it? I mean, you could argue that the line is still a bit fuzzy, okay, but I think James helps us a little bit, okay?

50:36

You have temptation. Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust, okay?

50:43

That's temptation. Is that sin? No, it doesn't appear to be sin.

50:49

In order for sin to arrive, something else needs to happen. Lust has to conceive, right?

50:55

Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin, which is an interesting image, right? That's a sexually charged image, okay?

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So in other words, something needs to come together with desire, with lust, in order for desire to conceive.

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Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully matured, it brings forth death.

51:17

So there's a bit of a process going on here. It seems to start with an implied looking, right?

51:23

As well as probably an implied attraction, or else where did the temptation and the desire come from in the first place, right?

51:30

So there is, I think, an implied looking at someone and an implied initial attraction.

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Is that a sin? No, I don't think so, because it appears that the attraction then becomes desire.

51:45

Now, the question is, is desire a sin? No, it seems like there's an extra step, isn't there?

51:52

It seems like desire needs to be combined with being carried away and enticed with this desire.

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Now, this, I think, is a choice. How desire conceives is that it is being carried away and enticed by the person himself.

52:09

That's a choice. That is where desire is conceived, and that is what gives birth to sin, okay?

52:14

So what does this look like practically? I think if you're out and you see an attractive person and you think they're attractive, that by itself is not a sin.

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But I think the moment that you realize in your mind that not only is this person attractive, but you find yourself desiring them.

52:31

By the way, what's the difference there, Nate? Well, one is an observation. The other one is a craving. So I'm trying to use the word the way that it's defined.

52:38

You have a longing in the same way that a hungry person desires to eat food. There is a desire for someone.

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That's the moment that Jesus does not want you to find yourself in, because desiring in this way, if you let that linger, that is your choice.

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If you are carried away and enticed by this desire, it leads to doing something about it, and that's where you end up sinning.

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I do not think, especially in this day and age, where everything has become so hyper -sexualized that a person can see another attractive person naked and not desire them.

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And so I think Jesus would tell you you need to stay far away from all forms of pornography, including

53:19

Playboy. You need to be fully satisfied in your spouse. By the way, if you're not married, guess what?

53:26

God wants you to be fully satisfied in him as a single person. Oh, Nate, you don't understand.

53:32

That's not easy. I didn't say it was easy. It's very difficult to do at times, but the fact is, married or single, we are all having to walk this path with God, learning to be fully satisfied in the people and the things and the situations that he has given us as a gift.

53:49

The moment we are not satisfied and we start letting our desires take over, we sin. And this is what the

53:56

Bible is concerned to keep us from doing. What do you think? How would you have responded to Dennis Prager or Matt Fradd?

54:02

Let me know in the comments below. What do you think about my take on Matthew 5 and James 1? You can let me know as well in the comments, and I would love to interact with them.

54:11

As always, I hope something in this video blessed you so that you can think through this issue so that you can communicate it more effectively as a

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Christian in today's culture. I've got more videos for you coming up soon, but in the meantime, I'll say bye for now.