Special Broadcast: Dr. Walter Martin's Daughter

Non rock a bonus must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I Want to think it. You're gonna bark all day.

Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly.

Okay, it doesn't really hurt.

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

Going to all the world and make disciples. Not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right? Don't go in the world make homies, right? Disciples, I got a bit of a jiggle Nick. That's a joke.

We cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart always being ready to make a reason defense to everyone who asks of you a reason for the hope that is within you to do with gentleness and with Respect. What's up guys?

Welcome back to another episode of apology a radio. Excuse my voice today dealing with a little bit of a Allergies. Coming back from coming back from Kauai is is always hard. I don't know if you guys know this but Arizona has horrible horrible air quality and allergies and all that stuff.

So when you leave the state and you come back in if you have bad allergies like like me you you suffer for about a week.

People used to come here for relief from allergies. I know I don't know what happened. Why did it happen? Well, a lot of people say that people from the Midwest came here for relief from allergies and then they were like Oh, but this isn't green like the Midwest.

So they like planted flowers. And yes, and we cottonwood. Yeah. They brought all their Midwestern right? It's the dust too. Well in relation. Obviously, we're in a big bowl and we drive everywhere and.

It just hangs out with us. It hangs out and we're surrounded by desert. So that doesn't help.

I've sneezed about 60 ,000 times since Sunday. So well, I'm back back in town back. Ready to go ready to serve the Lord ready to get back into it. I'm Jeff Durbin. They call me the ninja that over there is Luke the bear.

What up? And that's joy the girl. Hello, very excited about today's episode. I cannot tell you how very excited I am. I know that I seem to always be excited about our episodes. But let me tell you this one is something special because today she maybe not doesn't like me saying this.

But we have I think some Christian royalty on the program today. Hey, do you guys know who dr. Walter Martin is? I do, of course you do but everybody watching across them internets right now. Do you know who dr. Walter Martin is?

I hope so. If you don't you really should get to know him for real. You should get to know. Dr. Walter Martin. Dr. Walter Martin wrote the book the kingdom of the cults if you don't have the kingdom of the cults in your library.

You should sell your shoes your shirt you should sell all your other books and get the kingdom of the cults into your library because It's very important to have that and I mean that so Dr. Walter Martin, so I'll tell you just the background so you can hear as everyone's getting on to the broadcast today.

Share the broadcast first of all share the broadcast. You're gonna want a record of this let everybody across your social media platforms know so I was not raised in a Christian home and So Very interesting way that the Lord got me some solid doctrinal instruction right away.

Was many of you guys know that the first Christian book I ever read was from dr James White and it was the King James only controversy. So I got that in a library. What I did basically is when I first heard the gospel and I made a profession of faith.

I used to sit in the floor at these two Christian bookstores in in my town I was so excited to get to know God and to get to know the Bible, but I knew nothing. The first time I talked to my pastor about Jesus being God I was talking about how I was sharing with somebody and when I said and I told him Jesus is God I looked at him for confirmation that that was true.

Because that's what I was understanding the Bible to say like he's God right and he was like, yes go on. So I knew nothing and about 16 17 years old. And I'm in the Christian bookstore one day and I'm there every day and I'm sitting on the floor and I'm reading all their books stealing all their information.

Not buying anything just reading them. So, um, I had a good I had a good friend who I made friends with that one of the guys who was always behind the desk he came over to me one day and He just gave me this cassette Tape box thing this long one and he you know, we just fairly recently met.

I don't know what like led him to do that except of course the Lord he hands me this this box and he goes here. You need to listen to these and I knew nothing about anybody the Christian world nothing.

And so I I get this this box and I open it up. I remember I got my car and I pop a tape in you should probably explain to some of our list.

Yeah, you're even speaking of children. Age children.

There were these things with little spindly things and there was like literal tape and you had to put them in machines. And then that's how it worked and we listened to him until like that we listened to him till they broke basically.

So the entire box was filled filled with cassette tapes of dr. Walter Martin I didn't know the man, but I remember I popped the first tape in and I was Absolutely in awe of the Word of God. Not just dr. Martin's ability to communicate the truth of God.

But it was the Word of God in power and I got to hear the truth. Defended against error. It was dr. Martin and he was defending the truth against Mormonism against Jehovah's Witnesses Against the Baha 'i faith and and it was so compelling to me was it was dr. Martin after he would give a lecture or something.

They would invite people to come up and their people were there from that cult and they would come up and they would challenge Dr. Martin and dr. Martin would just answer them and he had so much love and so much grace and compassion for them.

But he also had such boldness and he knew what the Bible said about that thing. They were challenging on and I had never known anybody in my life because I wasn't raised in a Christian home that actually knew the Word of God like that and I was so in awe.

I just want to tell you that My life looked like this. It truly did. I would come home I would I was a martial arts competitor many guys know that and so I would just train all day. And then when I was ready for bed, I would basically just pop these dr Walter Martin cassette tapes in and I would listen to them until like 2 or 3 in the morning and I'd fall asleep to them.

And that's how I got all of my initial initial Christian doctrinal training. It was from dr. Walter Martin Martin and I would say this and there's just no question I mind about this the ministry that you've seen through apologia studios over the years all of the stuff we have of Mormonism the Watchtower atheism all that ministry I was inspired to do that ministry to put it on record so that others can see the truth defended all that you see the millions and millions of views that we have and all of our content than Countless Mormons that have come to Christ Jehovah's Witnesses Atheists all that stuff I was inspired to put it on record for Christians to see and be encouraged by and for cultists and all the rest to see.

And come to Christ through. There's no question about this because of dr. Walter Martin and there that is that is not An inflated way of putting that it's the truth. The reason this ministry exists today is because of dr. Walter Martin.

Now he's the man who gave me my initial doctrinal training. Even though he was with the Lord when I was getting it and he's the man that inspired me for this ministry that you are All watching right now.

And so I want to thank God for the ministry of dr Walter Martin and we have a very very special guest today. It is his daughter. Her name is Cindy Martin Morgan. Cindy welcome to the program. Thank you so much, I'm sorry one second we just we I don't even know what happened somebody is calling us I think somebody's calling in on the on the other computers in the back.

It's it's definitely not mine. So let's uh, I don't know if we can get that solved. Sorry about that everybody technical issues here on apology of studios, right? Carmen's getting a pay cut for sure. That's right.

Definitely docking the pay Carmen. We talked about it. No. So Cindy, welcome to the program.

Well nice to be with you. And I was thinking as you were sharing that just amazing testimony How it never ceases to amaze me how the work the Lord does through each of his children Lives on even after we're home with him.

Yes here. You're listening to these tapes when my father is in heaven. Yes, and it just just it's so it's so it's so precious to be used by our Lord. Yes, and I I.

Want to express to you just what an amazing blessing it was for me as a young man Who knew nothing about the Word of God to have your father in my ear in these? Really private moments and intimate moments at home where I got to receive all of this solid Training theological training your your father's ministry put guardrails around me as a young man.

And it was interesting because you know, not not being a part of church not growing up in church. Not having people connected to me that could help me. Really truly early on it was your father's Ministry that did put those guardrails around me that protected me from so many bad theologies out there and I had come into contact in the first two years of my Walk with the Lord so many different opportunities to fall off the rails.

Theologically and it was your father's ministry even with him with the Lord that kept me and guarded me from that. And it's true. Cindy I want you to hear that this. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Apology of Studios, but Apology of Church is a pastor at Apology of Church.

Apology of Studios is the teaching arm and outreach arm of our church. It has reached millions and millions and millions of people. We have lost count as to how many babies have been saved from abortion.

We have lost count as to how many Mormons have come to Christ and Jehovah's Witnesses and an atheist and and it's true. Of course, this is all to the glory of God and it's all through his spirit and all through his gospel.

But he uses means to do it and I just want you to be encouraged with this sister. You're your father is the reason for this ministry in terms of God's means to make it happen. Yeah. Absolutely, so like this is this is a really cool thing for me.

If you would have told me when I was a young man that I would be doing this today. I wouldn't have believed you. But I wanted to just can you introduce us to your dad, I mean Christian Research Institute was his his organization his ministry that he started.

Of course, we know about the famous kingdom of the cults, but can you tell us about your dad how he got into all that?

Well, he founded Christian Research Institute in 1960 and he wanted to have he wanted to really create a think tank To help Christians and non-believers learn first of all Christians to learn how to defend their faith and then to also draw unbelievers in like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and everything else to teach them that they were following a false doctrine and to teach them what The truth was.

And he wanted to have resources available for the church and resources available for the world To be able to find the real Jesus of the Bible and to know the truth. And he just had that Desire in his heart and he he just nothing could stop him.

I mean, he just went forward to build CRI and to to reach so many people for Jesus Christ and He just it just started from the ground up. I guess God put that vision on his heart To do this. And he also noticed too that in churches that there weren't a lot of resources for Christians right to be able to reach the cult and to Reach out to these different People that didn't have the real Jesus.

And he had he saw the need was so great and he wanted to fill that need with the gospel of Jesus Christ in a more unique way and.

That's how Christian Research Institute was born and it really good. I was just gonna say it's something that.

Maybe not everyone would realize is just even the importance of him recording his ministry as a legacy like. Without those recordings there would have been no way. It's not something that at the time Everyone would have been thinking to do.

Yeah, we invest time and money in the equipment that To record everything that you're saying, but that information wouldn't have gotten to you Jeff if he hadn't recorded it and so it is. You know, it's of course a unique ministry, but it's even unique in the fact that he thought like I want this to be something Long term something that will stand even after I have gone home.

Well, we've modeled a lot of what we do off off off of what he did as well. Go ahead Cindy. Sorry.

The influences in my father's life like Donald Grey Barnhouse and Dr. Gable I know different people that influenced his past and it's so fascinating to see how God will it all together. To bring him to the place that he got to with the birth of CRI and so I I have included that in the book to show just really really how amazing God is and and He really does determine our steps and he really does He really his purpose is really prevail in our lives.

Lives that are surrendered to him and it's just it's just extraordinary. Yes through my father and I and I see it and it's just it's such a blessing to me even even now. It just has blessed me my whole entire life to have known him myself and to have.

To learn about Jesus first through him. Yes. So Cindy you you mentioned that you have a new book. Cindy is it out yet? Yeah.

No, it's not out yet. It'll be out in the next month or two. Okay, so it's not out yet. The name of it is the Bible Answer Man Walter Martin and Hank Hanegraaff.

Dr. Martin's daughter reflects on its founder its history and its current president. Okay, awesome. Excellent. And so that that Broadcast the Bible Answer Man broadcast was your father's creation. Yes, yes and so that Broadcast as far as I know and you would obviously be more aware of the history here than than I would that broadcast really blew

Didn't it? It did. Yeah, so it was on radio programs across the country. And it was a unique program because people could call in and they could ask they're very difficult. Or thoughtful theological questions to your father who just had this information sort of all in his head.

Which was which is which is exciting.

Yeah, he had a photographic memory. Mm-hmm, which was which was amazing and Yet as he aged to he realized that he needed more than that. Yeah, he wanted to have the information not only at the fingertips of everybody else but at his own fingertips to even when he was on the program.

And He thought of that concept way back in the in the 1960s with dr Montgomery to have a computer based system that would hold all that information that could be accessed. And so it was just just astonishing.

What was going on for the future that God was, you know. Putting in place for all of this to come about and for the resources to get, you know throughout the world in this way.

It's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting because I remember Cindy when I was So gosh somewhere on 17 years old I ran into I started really engaging with Mormons and Your dad inspired me to do that and I had an immediate love for the Mormon community.

And I was all because of your dad's influence and I remember that I was able to contact at the time. This is like 1995 1995 -94 I was able to contact CRI at the time and just say hey I need some help with this stuff and they sent me for free.

I remember this huge envelope of just photocopies of like Joseph Smith's arrest record in Bainbridge, New York in 1826 and and all this huge stack of Information and and they sent me like a cassette tape stuff and they didn't even ask me for anything they just were like let's help you and they just threw this stuff at me and and and it was it was that it was CRI and that organization at the time that really Helped me to be prepared with a solid foundation when I approached my Mormon friends and neighbors.

And so it was even at that time With with your dad with the Lord. It was it was still this amazing resource to young believers like myself. So I just want to say this any for those of you guys who are unfamiliar with dr. Walter Martin his ministry.

Walter Martin's Debate with Van Hale and the Defense of Orthodoxy

Let me give you guys a little bit of a clip here. This is dr. Martin He is he had a debate with Van Hale who was a well-known Mormon at the time Van Hale still around today, but not as active but dr. Martin debated Van Hale which is a big deal in the day you had sort of the two heavyweights of Christianity versus Mormonism and just give you an idea of the kind of The way that dr. Martin used to communicate the truth.

I'm letting us hear this. The Bible is a very scholarly work. The anchor Bible is not considered seriously in the area of Orthodox Christian theology and the great majority of the church for 1 ,700 years.

Orthodox theology. It is what I am saying what I am preaching and what I am teaching. And it'll be possible to parade a hundred Scholars up here right now from major denominations including the Roman Catholic Church who would confirm what I am saying.

To mr Hale's satisfaction Mormonism is a polytheistic pagan Eternally polygamous cult which arose in the 19th century and was recognized by the Christian Church for what it was. The horror of it is that nice decent genuine people have been deceived by another Jesus Another spirit and another gospel.

Is the task of the Christian Church to love the Mormons and to read mr Hale and people like him who are trying to rewrite three Like the fathers. And we can find biblical terminology and they shall not be permitted to do so.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Mormons haven't really done too many public debates since then. Not not not many. When they when they that sort of information or being destroyed at that level goes public they they've kind of kept pretty quiet.

Also, we need to mention that our radio show actually starts off with dr. Martin.

Yeah, so a lot of people may already not realize that they know who he is. Yeah, that's the baptism of boldness Sermon, if you haven't heard it. And encourage you after our show today to go and search baptism of boldness.

Dr. Walter Martin on YouTube and be blessed. For sure. So joy, do you have anything to say? Okay. No. Yeah, I just.

And I don't know what other questions you guys have. I do. I have some good ones here.

Just based on what she wrote in here and her little okay, but more of like a.

The Bible Answer Man, TBN, and Confronting the Prosperity Gospel

Close closing. Okay, like last thoughts. Okay, so Cindy.

I loved what you wrote here when you described what your book is about. I think everybody should get this book when it comes out just real fast. And do you know where they're gonna be able to get to get a copy of the book?

Yes, it's going to be available on Amazon, okay.

And I'm sure in other venues as well. Perfect and I'll be one of the first ones to get it. It's so you you wrote a little right up here about what's in the book. It's more of a memoir of your father and and one of my buddies and one of my heroes of the faith Dr. Ken Gentry endorsed it, which is awesome.

So, you know, it's good and You you you said this you were gonna answer the question in the book Why was Walter Martin not invited back on the Trinity Broadcasting Network? I love this story, but I want you to tell it.

Conversation with Doug Clark and his wife on TBN. And it was kind of lengthy actually and my father was really challenging quite quite a bit about the health wealth gospel and He was really, you know calling Paul out to some extent but trying to give him every benefit of the doubt that he could but you could see the interview is available on I'm YouTube and probably a lot of other venues you can see the discomfort in the host and both of you know.

He and his wife as they were just really getting concerned. You know, maybe have a nervous breakdown at home as he was watching this in fact at one point during the interview. He told Paul to go have coffee.

He's really talking about Dave Hunt and he's talking all about things that Paul probably didn't want discussed and Paul was pretty angry. And of course, he was never allowed back on that broadcast. I don't even think I'm not even certain that the host was ever back on that broadcast.

I don't know that he was ever back on there or not but really my father was he was doing it in love, but he was just really challenging them and Trying to to get them to realize that no, we're not little gods.

I mean he really went at them with the Hagen-Copeland Statements he had them right there in front of him so he could read them off the paper and and just really confront them and explain to them why we're not little gods and Even in his loving spirit he was saying they were saying to him.

So are you saying these people are heretics and he basically was saying I'm not saying they're heretics. I'm saying they're doctrinally in error and they need to repent. Hmm, and they need to realize we're not little gods and because my father was always trying to give Christians professing Christians the benefit of the doubt.

He was always trying to to say we need to you know Correct one another in love and and not be not always be willing to throw our brothers and sisters. You know to the wolves and say, you know, forget you we need to fight for them, you know.

And so I really felt like in that interview. He was fighting for Paul Crouch. He was fighting for Hagen. He was fighting for Copeland and he was doing it in love and he was doing with the truth and he was doing it With the gospel and I think they just resented it.

Yeah, I think they they didn't want to hear him. You know later he reads something in that interview where you know, Paul Says that he doesn't believe that we're little gods and then of course later. Later, he learned that no Paul Crouch actually in fact did say that and there was evidence of that I think that they just didn't want to hear the truth and it just made him crazy.

Yeah, yeah, my father my father was just that way though. He just the truth meant, you know, the truth and the gospel were what he lived for. That's right. And it was really cool. Cindy.

Your father one of the things that I learned from him as a young man was that you have to have such a rigorous commitment to the truth that you're willing to Tell it no matter the consequences and lay your life down for it.

But one of the things I could see immediately in your father's example Was that when he communicated that truth even with as much boldness and sincerity as he did He always showed a love for the person that was lost he did or that was theologically off.

Yeah, and that in how he handled People from other denominations as much as an error as he would have thought they would have been. He always showed that his desire was to reach them with the truth and not merely destroy them.

Right, right. He wasn't out to destroy them or to humiliate them. He was out to help them to find their way back. Yeah.

So one of the things, you know I know I always have a lot of sanctification happening in me and more to be done. But a lot of people will look at our content Cindy and Apologia Studios. We're out doing evangelism at the Mormon Temple or whatever one of the things that people have marked our ministry as is this is a very loving right gracious approach to the cults and the truth is is early on I Was I was trained that way and taught to be that way because of your father's example.

That was the blessing that I had of listening to him. So. Yeah, absolutely. Praise God. So here's here's a here's one of my favorite ones and it's like almost no one knows about it. Like I didn't like you guys got to listen to this.

That your dad Debated on the radio Madeleine Murray O 'Hare who was like the she's like the OG she's like the original like atheist like, you know famous propagandist like American Atheist Association, I believe is it was her organization, right?

So she was the founder of that and man. Oh man, Cindy was was that a nasty was that just a nasty moment? It was yeah, it was if you listen to it, you're like man this woman is nasty. She can be really mean and your father was so gracious to her.

But tell us about it. Could you talk about that in the book? What happened? Behind the scenes when he debated America's most infamous atheist.

Well, my mother was there at the time too and then his friend Walter Bjorker jr who was also a staff on staff with CRI too and I think that they were taken aback by the nastiness of this woman. Actually, she was she was just hostile.

She didn't miss an opportunity to kind of be insulting to him. I mean when you hear the interview, obviously, it's it's pretty awful. I I get I get really Amazed that you know, whenever I listen to it how my father was just so cool.

Cool in the sense of just being wise and just being loving and yet firm and yet not missing a beat. Right and staying on point and not letting her rattle his cage, you know. And a funny thing that did happen behind the scenes that I can I can share with you.

There's there's more in the book and stuff but behind the scenes I just get such a kick out of knowing that when when they ended my father offered to give her a ride home. And see that just made her so mad.

That just made her so angry because she didn't want. I mean it really it is like heaping coals burning coals like the scripture says and He he was genuine in that he wasn't trying to insult or mock or you know, do anything against her.

He really had a love, you know for people like you were saying and knowing my father. He probably wanted to have another opportunity to share Christ. Yes. Yeah.

Yes, no he did he did so encourage you guys all to do that go to YouTube and think if you look it up. It should be in there somewhere Madeline Murray O 'Hare and dr. Martin and it's somewhere out there.

You could find it on them dem Internets so. It is it isn't it's an intense time. Yeah, Madeline. Okay, so this is this is a good one. Interested in this too. Why did what why didn't he belong actually here?

Go what what happened off-camera when Walter Martin debated father Mitch Pacwa on the John Ankerberg show? Mitch if you guys don't know this father Mitch Pacwa is is a Jesuit priest and scholar. He's a defender of Rome Roman Catholicism.

He's debated Dr. White who is a member of our church. Actually several times, but I'd love to hear this what happened off-camera when he debated father Mitch Pacwa.

Well, this is a story that father Mitch Pacwa did share with me. And I think I'm gonna allow you to to read this part in the book. I think it's it's just the long and short of it is that It demonstrates how Father Pacwa wasn't looked upon as a true brother in Jesus Christ.

Okay by dr Ankerberg and so the exchanges in the book and I think I would like to To leave it there where the reader can have a chance to actually hear that exchange. Because I do I do quote father Pacwa.

I'll let him speak for him. That sounds good. Good on that. I like your style Cindy. Yes, no spoilers here. No spoilers. Well This this would be a fun one. How did God give Walter Martin the opportunity to witness to Muhammad Ali?

What?

You know my dad he never did miss an opportunity. That God put out in front of him and he was not a shy person as you know. And he saw him in an airport and he thought you know an opportunity. Let him speak for himself too in the book.

And I do share that exchange in his own words with Muhammad Ali and it's Absolutely amazing and I think it'll bless you. Tremendously all who see that exchange because it's so clear so clear. God was there and God God used my father in his life.

So get in those moments get the book y 'all. Hey.

So it's just on a personal level Cindy. I'd like to just what was it like being raised by dr. Walter Martin. Well.

Some of the childhood stories and and my life with him I can tell you one of them real quick. Just how he influenced me so much as being a pastor in the church when I was a little girl. He was the associate pastor and I would when I was a little girl five years old I I pulled a hamper out in the bathroom and put my Bible on it and I'd line my Dolls up on the tub and I would preach to them.

And if they didn't behave they were really in trouble just like if I didn't behave I was really. Stories about the kind of father he was and because that's what I'm asked. That's the number one question I'm I'm always asked is what was it like to have him as a dad?

He was very strict. Very strict, but like I said, I think it was a healthy fear he really instilled in us and I think that that's a good thing and I just yet. He had this tender side and this loving side there was one time where I was very ill very ill and I had to be the doctor had told him I would need to be hospitalized if I wasn't well by morning and my father I Remember him picking me up in his arms and I had chills.

So I was really little and I had chills so bad. I was shaking really hard and I had a high fever and they couldn't get it down. And I remember him holding me in the chair until it was in his favorite chair until it was time for me to go to Bed and praying over me and just holding me and just saying please God, you know, please just heal please just heal Cindy and.

So he had this very gentle and tender side where he was. He was very present as a father in terms of emotionally just and in that love. And so even though he was he was a very good disciplinarian. He was also he also had that gentle loving, you know, I will never leave you love, you know that you can count on me.

Yeah, he was just he was just a very.

Very good father your father Cindy was in war. I mean for the gospel I mean in a way in a way that so many people will never ever get to experience and this is one thing as a Pastor, I just want to ask you very on a very personal level here.

We are in a lot of battles ourselves Here at Apologia Church and the way that we do ministry again inspired by your father, but nowhere near I think that kind of level what your father was. So you your father was being attacked on all sides from all these different Religions and cults and and all these different movements.

It must have been very very intense to have a father that had a target on his back like that. How how did your father protect you as his daughter as the daughter of a pastor and a man of God a minister of the gospel?

Someone that was involved like that, how did you how did you not hate the church?

Well, I never felt that way. My father was always quick to put the blame where the blame. You know should be okay, which is on, you know spiritual, you know the darkness dark powers in the spiritual realm.

And you know that our enemy was Satan. And that he did, you know rum around like A roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Yeah, and so my father made us very aware early on that we were in a spiritual battle.

And so I I had some fear as a little girl with the devil. Yeah, you know I because my father was very honest and open about this is warfare and yet we have Jesus and you know Jesus is our strength and Jesus is our refuge.

And so I felt the power of God was far greater. Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world. And and he really lived that. And so I felt that Strength from him and even at times when I would be afraid his strength and just always pointing to the cross made me look to the cross too.

And it grew me up in Love for Jesus Christ and the fact that he was Lord of all.

That's good your dad used to used to say. I heard him say it several times. And it was interesting because it seemed like when he said it people would like laugh, but I was like I don't think he's kidding.

He would say that he believed he had an entire legion of demons assigned to him. And I think you would hear people that kind of giggle about it. And I was like no, I don't. I don't think he's meaning for that to be funny.

I think he's telling you the truth. That's what he believed.

He did in fact there is a I had a I have a story in there About my father and I where there was a demonic encounter. And I won't go into what that is except for because I think you need to read it and the details of it and And see where see where God brought us to in that in that place and time that we went through and I was in my Teen years and my father handled it so appropriately so appropriately and so well, and I just have stayed with me all my life that experience and that that courage that he has in the Lord and that Acknowledgement that we are Surrounded by demons actually and and they don't get talked about as much as maybe they should be because we really are again Up against demonic forces.