Special Broadcast: Dr. Walter Martin's Daughter

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00:02

Non -rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it.

00:12

Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

00:19

Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

00:25

So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me.

00:36

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

00:49

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies.

00:56

Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke, pastor.

01:03

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

01:26

Sanctify Christ as Lord in your heart. Always being ready to make a reasoned defense to everyone who asks of you a reason for the hope that is within you to do it with gentleness and with respect.

01:39

What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. Excuse my voice today, dealing with a little bit of allergies.

01:47

Coming back from Kauai is always hard. It is. I don't know if you guys know this, but Arizona has horrible, horrible air quality and allergies and all that stuff.

01:59

So when you leave the state and you come back in, if you have bad allergies like me, you suffer for about a week.

02:06

People used to come here for relief from allergies. I know. I don't know what happened. Why did it happen?

02:12

Well, a lot of people say that people from the Midwest came here for relief from allergies. And then they were like, oh, but this isn't green like the

02:20

Midwest. So they like planted flowers. Yes. Cottonwood. They brought all their

02:27

Midwestern. It's the dust, too. Well, and pollution, obviously. We're in a big bowl.

02:32

And we drive everywhere and it just hangs out with us. It hangs out.

02:37

And we're surrounded by desert. So that doesn't help. I've sneezed about 60 ,000 times since Sunday.

02:43

So, well, I'm back. Back in town. Back. Ready to go. Ready to serve the Lord. Ready to get back into it.

02:49

I'm Jeff Durbin. They call me the Ninja. That over there is Luke the Bear. What up? And that's Joy the Girl. Hello. Very excited about today's episode.

02:55

I cannot tell you how very excited I am. I know that I seem to always be excited about our episodes.

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But let me tell you, this one is something special. Because today, she maybe doesn't like me saying this.

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But we have, I think, some Christian royalty on the program today. Hey, do you guys know who

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Dr. Walter Martin is? I do. Of course. Of course you do. But everybody watching across them internets right now, do you know who

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Dr. Walter Martin is? I hope so. If you don't, you really should get to know him for real.

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You should get to know Dr. Walter Martin. Dr. Walter Martin wrote the book, The Kingdom of the Cults. If you don't have

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The Kingdom of the Cults in your library, you should sell your shoes, your shirt.

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You should sell all your other books and get The Kingdom of the Cults into your library. Because it's very important to have that.

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And I mean that. So, Dr. Walter Martin. So, I'll tell you just the background so you can hear as everyone is getting on to the broadcast today.

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Share the broadcast. First of all, share the broadcast. You're going to want a record of this. Let everybody across your social media platforms know.

03:58

So, I was not raised in a Christian home. And so, very interesting way that the

04:06

Lord got me some solid doctrinal instruction right away was, many of you guys know that the first Christian book

04:12

I ever read was from Dr. James White. And it was the King James Only Controversy. So, I got that in a library.

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What I did basically is when I first heard the gospel and I made a profession of faith, I used to sit in the floor at these two

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Christian bookstores in my town. I was so excited to get to know God and to get to know the

04:31

Bible. But I knew nothing. The first time I talked to my pastor about Jesus being God, I was talking about how

04:36

I was sharing with somebody. And when I said, and I told him Jesus is God, I looked at him for confirmation that that was true.

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Because that's what I was understanding the Bible to say. Like, he's God, right? And he was like, yes, go on. So, I knew nothing.

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And I'm about 16, 17 years old. And I'm in the Christian bookstore one day and I'm there every day.

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And I'm sitting on the floor and I'm reading all their books, stealing all their information. Not buying anything, just reading them.

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So, I had a good friend who I made friends with, one of the guys who was always behind the desk.

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He came over to me one day and he just gave me this cassette tape box thing, this long one.

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And we just fairly recently met. I don't know what led him to do that except, of course, the

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Lord. He hands me this box and he goes, here, you need to listen to these. And I knew nothing about anybody, the

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Christian world, nothing. And so, I get this box and I open it up. I remember I got in my car and I pop a tape in.

05:39

You should probably explain to some of our listeners what you're even speaking of at this day and age. Children, there were these things with little spindly things.

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And there was like little tape and you had to put them in machines. And they went, me, me, me.

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And then that's how it worked. And we listened to them until they broke, basically.

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So, the entire box was filled, filled with cassette tapes of Dr. Walter Martin.

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I didn't know the man. But I remember I popped the first tape in and I was absolutely in awe of the

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Word of God. Not just Dr. Martin's ability to communicate the truth of God, but it was the

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Word of God in power. And I got to hear the truth defended against error.

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It was Dr. Martin and he was defending the truth against Mormonism, against Jehovah's Witnesses, against the

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Baha 'i faith. And what was so compelling to me was it was Dr. Martin, after he would give a lecture or something, they would invite people to come up and their people were there from that cult.

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And they would come up and they would challenge Dr. Martin. And Dr. Martin would just answer them. And he had so much love and so much grace and compassion for them.

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But he also had such boldness. And he knew what the Bible said about that thing they were challenging on.

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And I had never known anybody in my life, because I wasn't raised in a Christian home, that actually knew the Word of God like that. And I was so in awe.

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I just want to tell you that my life looked like this. It truly did. I would come home. I was a martial arts competitor.

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Many of you guys know that. So I would just train all day. And then when I was ready for bed, I would basically just pop these

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Dr. Walter Martin cassette tapes in. And I would listen to them until like 2 or 3 in the morning. And I'd fall asleep to them.

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And that's how I got all of my initial Christian doctrinal training. It was from Dr.

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Walter Martin. And I would say this. And there's just no question in my mind about this. The ministry that you've seen through Apologia Studios over the years, all of the stuff we have on Mormonism, the

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Watchtower, Atheism, all that ministry, I was inspired to do that ministry, to put it on record so that others can see the truth defended.

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All that you see, the millions and millions of views that we have in all of our content, the countless

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Mormons that have come to Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists, all that stuff. I was inspired to put it on record for Christians to see and be encouraged by, and for cultists and all the rest to see and come to Christ through.

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So there's no question about this because of Dr. Walter Martin. And that is not an inflated way of putting that.

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It's the truth. The reason this ministry exists today is because of Dr. Walter Martin. Now, he's the man who gave me my initial doctrinal training, even though he was with the

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Lord when I was getting it. And he's the man that inspired me for this ministry that you are all watching right now.

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And so I want to thank God for the ministry of Dr. Walter Martin. And we have a very, very special guest today.

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It is his daughter. Her name is Cindy Martin Morgan. Cindy, welcome to the program.

08:41

Hi, Jeff. Thank you for that beautiful testimony. Wow, praise God. Thank you so much.

08:47

I'm sorry. One second. I don't even know what happened. Somebody is calling us. I think somebody's calling in on the other computers in the back.

08:54

It's definitely not mine. So let's—I don't know if we can get that solved. Sorry about that, everybody. Technical issues here on Apologia Studios right now.

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Carmen's getting the pay cut for sure. That's right. Definitely docking the pay. Carmen, we talked about it. No. So, Cindy, welcome to the program.

09:09

Well, nice to be with you. And I was thinking as you were sharing that just amazing testimony how it never ceases to amaze me how the work the

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Lord does through each of his children lives on even after we're home with him. Yes.

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And here you're listening to these tapes when my father is in heaven. Yes. And it just is so—it's so precious to be used by our

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Lord. Yes. Amen. And I want to express to you just what an amazing blessing it was for me as a young man who knew nothing about the

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Word of God to have your father in my ear in these really private moments and intimate moments at home where I got to receive all of this solid training, theological training.

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Your father's ministry put guardrails around me as a young man. And it was interesting because, you know, not being a part of church, not growing up in church, not having people connected to me that could help me, really, truly early on it was your father's ministry that did put those guardrails around me that protected me from so many bad theologies out there.

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And I had come into contact in the first two years of my walk with the Lord so many different opportunities to fall off the rails theologically, and it was your father's ministry, even with him with the

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Lord, that kept me and guarded me from that. And it's true, Cindy. I want you to hear that. I'm not sure how familiar you are with Apologia Studios, but Apologia Church is—I'm a pastor at Apologia Church.

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Apologia Studios is the teaching arm and outreach arm of our church. It has reached millions and millions and millions of people.

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We have lost count as to how many babies have been saved from abortion. We have lost count as to how many

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Mormons have come to Christ and Jehovah's Witnesses and atheists. And it's true, of course, this is all to the glory of God, and it's all through his spirit and all through his gospel, but he uses means to do it.

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And I just want you to be encouraged with this, sister. Your father is the reason for this ministry in terms of God's means to make it happen.

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Yes, yes. Praise the Lord for that. Absolutely. So this is a really cool thing for me. If you would have told me when

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I was a young man that I would be doing this today, I wouldn't have believed you. But I wanted to just—can you introduce us to your dad?

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I mean, Christian Research Institute was his organization, his ministry that he started.

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Of course, we know about the famous kingdom of the cults, but can you tell us about your dad, how he got into all that? Well, he founded

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Christian Research Institute in 1960, and he wanted to have—he wanted to really create a think tank to help

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Christians and nonbelievers learn—first of all, Christians to learn how to defend their faith, and then to also draw unbelievers in, like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and everything else, to teach them that they were following a false doctrine and to teach them what the truth was.

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And he wanted to have resources available for the church and resources available for the world to be able to find the real

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Jesus of the Bible and to know the truth. And he just had that desire in his heart, and he just—nothing could stop him.

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I mean, he just went forward to build CRI and to reach so many people for Jesus Christ.

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And he just—it just started from the ground up, I guess. God put that vision on his heart to do this.

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And he also noticed, too, that in churches that there weren't a lot of resources for to be able to reach the cult and to reach out to these different people that didn't have the real

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Jesus, and he had—he saw the need was so great, and he wanted to fill that need with the gospel of Jesus Christ in a more unique way.

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And that's how Christian Research Institute was born. And it really—go ahead, Joy. I was just going to say, it's something that maybe not everyone would realize, is just even the importance of him recording his ministry as a legacy.

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Like, without those recordings, there would have been no way—it's not something that at the time, everyone would have been thinking to do—invest time and money in the equipment that—to record everything that you're saying.

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But that information wouldn't have gotten to you, Jeff, if he hadn't recorded it.

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And so it is, you know, it's of course a unique ministry, but it's even unique in the fact that he thought, like,

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I want this to be something long -term, something that will stand even after I have gone home.

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Well, we've modeled a lot of what we do off of what he did as well. Right. Go ahead, Cindy. Sorry.

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Oh, I was just going to say that in my book, I go into the influences in my father's life, like Donald Gray Barnhouse and Dr.

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Gabelina, different people that influenced his path. And it's so fascinating to see how God wove it all together to bring him to the place that he got to with the birth of CRI.

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And so I have included that in the book to show just really, really how amazing

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God is. And he really does determine our steps, and he really does—his purposes really prevail in our lives, the lives that are surrendered to him.

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And it's just extraordinary what he did through my father. And I see it, and it's just, it's such a blessing to me even now.

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Yeah. It just has blessed me my whole entire life to have known him myself and to have learned about Jesus first through him.

14:44

Yes. So, Cindy, you mentioned that you have a new book. Cindy, is it out yet?

14:49

Yeah. No, it's not out yet. It'll be out in the next month or two. Okay. So it's not out yet.

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Okay. The name of it is The Bible Answer Man, Walter Martin and Hank Hanegraaff. Dr. Martin's daughter reflects on its founder, its history, and its current president.

15:05

Okay. Awesome. Excellent. And so that broadcast, The Bible Answer Man broadcast, was your father's creation?

15:16

Yes. Yes. And so that broadcast, as far as I know—and you would obviously be more aware of the history here than I would—that broadcast really blew up nationally, didn't it?

15:27

It did. Yeah. So it was on radio programs across the country. And it was a unique program because people could call in and they could ask their very difficult or thoughtful theological questions to your father, who just had this information sort of all in his head.

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Yes, he did. Which is exciting. Yeah, he had a photographic memory, which was amazing.

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And yet as he aged, too, he realized that he needed more than that. Yeah. He wanted to have the information not only at the fingertips of everybody else, but at his own fingertips, too, even when he was on the program.

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And he thought of that concept way back in the 1960s with Dr.

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Montgomery, to have a computer -based system that would hold all that information that could be accessed.

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And so it was just astonishing what was going on for the future that God was putting in place for all of this to come about and for the resources to get throughout the world in this way.

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It's interesting. Yeah. It's interesting because I remember, Cindy, when I was somewhere around 17 years old,

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I started really engaging with Mormons. And your dad inspired me to do that. And I had an immediate love for the

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Mormon community. And that was all because of your dad's influence. And I remember that I was able to contact, at the time, this was like 1995, 1994,

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I was able to contact CRI at the time and just say, hey, I need some help with this stuff. And they sent me for free,

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I remember this huge envelope of just photocopies of Joseph Smith's arrest record in Bainbridge, New York in 1826.

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And there's a huge stack of information. And they sent me cassette tape stuff, and they didn't even ask me for anything.

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They just were like, let's help you. And they just threw this stuff at me. And it was CRI and that organization at the time that really helped me to be prepared with a solid foundation when

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I approached my Mormon friends and neighbors. And so it was even at that time, with your dad, with the

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Lord, it was still this amazing resource to young believers like myself. So I just want to say this,

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Cindy. For those of you guys who are unfamiliar with Dr. Walter Martin, his ministry, let me give you guys a little bit of a clip here. This is

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Dr. Martin. He had a debate with Van Hale, who was a well -known

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Mormon at the time. Van Hale's still around today, but not as active.

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But Dr. Martin debated Van Hale, which is a big deal in the day. You had sort of the two heavyweights of Christianity versus Mormonism.

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And just give you an idea of the kind of, the way that Dr. Martin used to communicate the truth. I'll let you guys hear this.

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The Bible is a very scholarly work. The anchor Bible is not considered seriously in the area of Orthodox Christian theology.

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And the great majority of the church for 1700 years is Orthodox theology.

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It is what I am saying, what I am preaching, and what I am teaching. And it would be possible to parade a hundred scholars up here right now from major denominations, including the

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Roman Catholic Church, who would confirm what I am saying to Mr. Hale's satisfaction. Mormonism is a polytheistic, pagan, eternally polygamous cult, which arose in the 19th century and was recognized by the

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Christian church for what it was. The horror of it is that nice, decent, genuine people have been deceived by another

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Jesus, another spirit, and another gospel. It is the task of the Christian church to love the

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Mormons and to rebuke Mr. Hale and people like him who are trying to rewrite history, rewrite the

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Fathers, and redefine Biblical terminology, and they shall not be permitted to do so. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the

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Mormons haven't really done too many public debates since then. Not many. Not too many.

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There's not too many that are willing to do it. When that sort of information or being destroyed at that level goes public, they've kind of kept pretty quiet.

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Also, we need to mention that our radio show actually starts off with Dr. Martin. Yeah. So a lot of people may already not realize that they know who he is.

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Yeah. That's the Baptism of Boldness sermon. If you haven't heard it, I'd encourage you, after our show today, to go and search

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Baptism of Boldness, Dr. Walter Martin, on YouTube and be blessed. For sure.

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So, Joy, do you have anything you want to say? Yeah, I just—and I don't know what other questions you guys have.

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I do. I have some good ones here, just based on what she wrote in her little— Oh, okay. Then you go first. Okay, I'll go first.

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Mine's more of like a closing out, like last thoughts kind of thing. Okay, perfect. So, Cindy, I loved what you wrote here when you described what your book is about.

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I think everybody should get this book when it comes out. Just real fast, Cindy, do you know where they're going to be able to get a copy of the book?

20:28

Yes, it's going to be available on Amazon. Okay. And I'm sure in other venues as well.

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Perfect. I'll be one of the first ones to get it. So, you wrote a little right up here about what's in the book.

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It's more of a memoir of your father and one of my buddies and one of my heroes of the faith,

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Dr. Ken Gentry, endorsed it, which is awesome. So you know it's good. Yes, thank you.

20:54

And you said this, you were going to answer the question in the book, why was Walter Martin not invited back on the

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Trinity Broadcasting Network? I love this story, but I want you to tell it. Oh, wow.

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Well, he had an interesting conversation with Doug Clark and his wife on TBN.

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And it was kind of lengthy, actually. And my father was really challenging them quite a bit about the health -wealth gospel.

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And he was really calling Paul out to some extent, but trying to give him every benefit of the doubt that he could.

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But you could see the interview is available on YouTube and probably a lot of other venues.

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You can see the discomfort in the host, in both he and his wife, as they were just really getting concerned.

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Right. Paul was going to maybe have a nervous breakdown at home as he was watching this.

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In fact, at one point during the interview, he tells Paul to go have coffee. He's really talking about Dave Hunt, and he's talking all about things that Paul probably didn't want discussed.

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And Paul was pretty angry, and, of course, he was never allowed back on that broadcast. And I don't even think,

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I'm not even certain that the host was ever back on that broadcast again. Oh, wow. But really, either

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Doug Clark, I don't know that he was ever back on there or not. But really, my father, he was doing it in love, but he was just really challenging them and trying to get them to realize that, no, we're not little gods.

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I mean, he really went at them with the Hagen -Copeland statements. He had them right there in front of him so he could read them off the paper and just really confront them and explain to them why we're not little gods.

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And even in his loving spirit, they were saying to him, so are you saying these people are heretics?

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And he basically was saying, I'm not saying they're heretics, I'm saying they're doctrinally in error, and they need to repent, and they need to realize we're not little gods.

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And because my father was always trying to give Christians, professing Christians, the benefit of the doubt, he was always trying to say we need to correct one another in love and not always be willing to throw our brothers and sisters to the wolves and say, forget you, we need to fight for them.

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And so I really felt like in that interview he was fighting for Paul Crouch, he was fighting for Hagen, he was fighting for Copeland, and he was doing it in love and he was doing it with the truth and he was doing it with the gospel.

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And I think they just resented it. I think they didn't want to hear him.

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He reads something in that interview where Paul says that he doesn't believe that we're little gods, and then of course later he learned that no,

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Paul Crouch actually in fact did say that, and there was evidence of that. So I think that they just didn't want to hear the truth, and it just made them crazy.

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And yet my father was just that way, though. The truth and the gospel were what he lived for.

24:01

That's right. And it was really cool. Cindy, your father, one of the things that I learned from him as a young man was that you have to have such a rigorous commitment to the truth that you're willing to tell it no matter the consequences and lay your life down for it.

24:17

But one of the things I could see immediately in your father's example was that when he communicated that truth, even with as much boldness and sincerity as he did, he always showed a love for the person that was lost.

24:30

He did. Or that was theologically off. Yeah, and how he handled people from other denominations, as much as an error as he would have thought they would have been, he always showed that his desire was to reach them with the truth and not merely destroy them.

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Right, right. He wasn't out to destroy them or to humiliate them. He was out to help them to find their way back to the truth of the gospel.

24:57

So one of the things, you know, I know I always have a lot of sanctification happening in me and more to be done, but a lot of people will look at our content,

25:05

Cindy, in Apologia Studios where we're out doing evangelism at the Mormon Temple or whatever. One of the things that people have marked our ministry as is this is a very loving, gracious approach to the cult.

25:16

And the truth is, is early on, I was trained that way and taught to be that way because of your father's example.

25:23

That was the blessing that I had of listening to him. Praise God. Yeah, absolutely. Praise God.

25:29

So here's one of my favorite ones, and it's like almost no one knows about it. And I'm like, you guys got to listen to this.

25:36

Your dad debated on the radio, Madeleine Murray O 'Hare, who was like, she's like the

25:43

OG. She's like the original, like, atheist, like, you know, famous propagandist, like American Atheist Association, I believe it was her organization, right?

25:53

So she was the founder of that. And man, oh man, Cindy, was that a nasty, was that just a nasty moment?

26:01

It was. Yeah, it was. If you listen to it, you're like, man, this woman is nasty. She can be really mean.

26:07

And your father was so gracious to her. But tell us about it because you talk about that in the book.

26:13

What happened behind the scenes when he debated America's most infamous atheist?

26:19

Well, my mother was there at the time, too, and then his friend Walter Bjork, Jr., who was also on staff with CRI, too.

26:26

And I think that they were taken aback by the nastiness of this woman, actually. She was just hostile.

26:35

She didn't miss an opportunity to kind of be insulting to him. I mean, when you hear the interview, obviously it's pretty awful.

26:43

I get really amazed that, you know, whenever I listen to it, how my father was just so cool, cool in the sense of just being wise and just being loving and yet firm and yet not missing a beat.

26:58

Right. And staying on point and not letting her rattle his cage, you know. And a funny thing that did happen behind the scenes that I can share with you, there's more in the book and stuff, but behind the scenes,

27:10

I just get such a kick out of knowing that when they ended, my father offered to give her a ride home.

27:18

That's hilarious. My father and mother and Walter Bjork, yeah. And that just made her so mad.

27:24

That's hilarious. I mean, that just made her so angry because she didn't want, I mean, it really is like heaping coals, burning coals, like the

27:33

Scripture says. And he was genuine in that. He wasn't trying to insult or mock or, you know, do anything against her.

27:42

He really had a love for people, like you were saying. And knowing my father, he probably wanted to have another opportunity to share

27:48

Christ with her. So she was really something, I mean, really a tough cookie.

27:54

And I think he handled her extremely well. Yes. No, he did.

27:59

He did. So I encourage you guys all to do that. Go to YouTube. I think if you look it up, it should be in there somewhere. Madeleine Marie O 'Hare and Dr.

28:06

Martin. It's somewhere out there. You can find it on them dem internets. It's riveting.

28:11

It's really riveting. It is. It's an intense time. Yeah, Madeleine. OK, so this is this is a good one.

28:18

I'm interested in this, too. Why did why didn't he? No, actually, here you go. What happened off camera when

28:24

Walter Martin debated Father Mitch Pacwa on the John Ankerberg show? If you guys don't know this, Father Mitch Pacwa is a

28:31

Jesuit priest and scholar. He's a defender of Rome, Roman Catholicism.

28:37

He's debated Dr. White, who is a member of our church, actually several times.

28:43

But I'd love to hear this. What happened off camera when he debated Father Mitch Pacwa? Well, this is a story that Father Mitch Pacwa did share with me.

28:53

And I think I'm going to allow you to read this part in the book. I think it's it's just the long and short of it is that it demonstrates how

29:06

Father Pacwa wasn't looked upon as a true brother in Jesus Christ.

29:12

OK, by Dr. Ankerberg. And so the exchanges in the book. And I think

29:17

I would like to to leave it there where the reader can have a chance to actually hear that exchange, because I do.

29:24

I do quote Father Pacwa. I'll let him speak for him. That sounds good. Good on that. I like your style,

29:29

Cindy. Yes. No spoilers here. No spoilers. Well, this this would be a fun one.

29:37

How did God give Walter Martin the opportunity to witness to Muhammad Ali? What? Well, you know, my dad, he never did miss an opportunity that God put out in front of him.

29:49

And he was not a shy person, as you know. And he saw him in an airport and he thought, you know, an opportunity.

29:58

So I do let him speak for himself, too, in the book. And I do share that exchange in his own words with Muhammad Ali.

30:08

And it's absolutely amazing. And I think it'll bless you tremendously.

30:13

All who see that exchange, because it's so clear, so clear. God was there and God used my father in his life.

30:21

So get in those moments. Get the book, y 'all. Hey, so on a personal level,

30:26

Cindy, I'd like to just what was it like being raised by Dr. Walter Martin? Well, I had a healthy fear of my father.

30:37

I do talk about some of the childhood stories and my life with him.

30:44

I can tell you one of them real quick, just how he influenced me so much as being a pastor in the church when

30:50

I was a little girl. He was the associate pastor. And I would, when I was a little girl, five years old,

30:56

I'd pull the hamper out in the bathroom and put my Bible on it. And I'd line my dolls up on the tub and I would preach to them.

31:05

And if they didn't behave, they were really in trouble. Just like if I didn't behave, I was really in trouble. And so I kind of go into these stories about the kind of father he was.

31:17

And because that's what I'm asked. That's the number one question I'm always asked is what was it like to have him as a dad?

31:23

He was very strict, very strict. But like I said, I think it was a healthy fear.

31:29

He really instilled in us. And I think that that's a good thing. And I just, yet he had this tender side and this loving side.

31:37

There was one time where I was very ill, very ill. And I had to be, the doctor had told him

31:44

I would need to be hospitalized if I wasn't well by morning. And my father, I remember him picking me up in his arms and I had chills.

31:51

I was really little and I had chills so bad. I was shaking really hard and I had a high fever and they couldn't get it down.

31:57

And I remember him holding me in the chair, in his favorite chair until it was time for me to go to bed.

32:04

And praying over me and just holding me. And just saying, please God, you know, please just heal.

32:10

Please just heal Cindy. And so he had this very gentle and tender side where he was very present as a father in terms of emotionally just in that love.

32:22

And so even though he was a very good disciplinarian, he also had that gentle, loving, you know,

32:29

I will never leave you love. You know, that you can count on me. He was just a very, very good father.

32:37

Your father, Cindy, was in war. I mean, for the gospel. In a way that so many people will never ever get to experience.

32:45

And this is one thing as a pastor, I just want to ask you on a very personal level here. We are in a lot of battles ourselves here at Apologia Church in the way that we do ministry.

32:54

Again, inspired by your father. But nowhere near, I think, the kind of level your father was. So your father was being attacked on all sides from all these different religions and cults and all these different movements.

33:07

It must have been very, very intense to have a father that had a target on his back like that. How did your father protect you as his daughter?

33:14

As the daughter of a pastor and a man of God, a minister of the gospel? Someone that was involved like that.

33:19

How did you not hate the church? Well, I never felt that way.

33:26

My father was always quick to put the blame where the blame should be. Which is on spiritual darkness, dark powers in the spiritual realm.

33:37

And that our enemy was Satan. And that he did roam around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

33:44

And so my father made us very aware early on that we were in a spiritual battle.

33:50

And so I had some fear as a little girl of the devil. Because my father was very honest and open about this is warfare and yet we have

33:59

Jesus. And Jesus is our strength. And Jesus is our refuge. And so I felt the power of God was far greater.

34:07

Greater is in me than he that is in the world. And he really lived that. And so I felt that strength from him.

34:15

And even at times when I would be afraid, his strength. And just always pointing to the cross made me look to the cross too.

34:22

And it grew me up in love for Jesus Christ. And the fact that he was

34:28

Lord of all. That's awesome. That's good. Your dad used to say,

34:33

I heard him say it several times. And it was interesting because it seemed like when he said it people would like laugh. But I was like, I don't think he's kidding.

34:40

He would say that he believed he had an entire legion of demons assigned to him. And I think you would hear people kind of giggle about it.

34:47

And I was like, I don't think he's meaning for that to be funny. I think he's telling you the truth. That's what he believed.

34:52

Well, you know, he really did come up against demons. He did. In fact, I have a story in there about my father and I where there was a demonic encounter.

35:05

And I won't go into what that is. Because I think you need to read it and the details of it. And see where God brought us to in that place and time that we went through.

35:17

And I was in my teen years. And my father handled it so appropriately and so well.

35:23

And it just has stayed with me all my life. That experience and that courage that he has in the

35:31

Lord. And that acknowledgement that we are surrounded by demons, actually.

35:37

And they don't get talked about as much as maybe they should be. Because we really are up against demonic forces.

35:45

And we have to deal with our own sin. We have to deal with everybody else's sin. And we have to deal with demonic forces as well.

35:53

So he was very clear about that. And this experience that I had with him in his house in San Juan Capistrano is absolutely riveting.

36:01

Oh, I can't wait to read it. And I think you will be blessed by that. Cindy, you can't do this to me. It's a month away.

36:10

I'm sorry. No, I'm just kidding. So I just want to say this. Hopefully this brings some encouragement to you too.

36:17

You know, we see people in the Christian world go like one of two directions at times. In terms of dealing with the demonic and the spiritual in this way.

36:24

You have at times the hyper -charismatic side, which will be sort of – will overemphasize the demonic and see like the devil behind every rock kind of a thing.

36:33

It's like all – and it gets kind of weird, right? And so you have people in the Reformed world that almost don't even want to – they see that error.

36:41

So they don't want to go there. So they almost never talk about the spiritually demonic and the attacks that come. And so you're almost not –

36:47

Wait, don't tell them about that part in my book. Yeah, no, no, no. No, I want to – no, I'm Reformed and I want to read it.

36:54

I'm kidding. No, no, it's okay. And I'll tell you just – again, this is hopefully to encourage you and to bless you and to continue to talk about your dad's ministry and do more.

37:02

Write another book. Like just – let's keep your father's ministry before the world and point people back.

37:09

So recently we were just in – we have a church plant we've planted in the last year in the island of Kauai. And it's filled with the cults all over.

37:17

The whole island is filled with the cults and it's filled with all the New Age, the spiritism, all mediums.

37:22

And we were just there for the month of January, and it was some of the most intense and hardest ministry

37:28

I have ever been a part of. Apologia Church is about 10 years old, and we've been doing ministry longer than that.

37:33

But – and just 10 years as Apologia Church, it was the hardest month I've ever experienced.

37:39

And one of the greatest difficulties in Kauai being there and sort of living there with the team and doing ministry was dealing with the spiritual aspect of it, the attacks that we were all experiencing while we were there.

37:52

And I have to tell you this. And again, this is hopefully to encourage you. Where my mind went when

37:58

I finally realized the intensity of these attacks and where they were coming from, where my mind went was back to your father's instruction and to his –

38:08

I immediately was like, wait a second, Dr. Martin talked a lot about this. And I go back and I'm listening to his lectures on this stuff.

38:13

And your dad was, again, my resource, my stop to get encouragement in this area, to find boldness in this area, and to get instruction.

38:22

And that's me now 25 years later. I went right back to your dad's resources because he was so wise in this area, and he offered so much help.

38:32

And I'll tell you, even in this last month, it was your father's ministry all those years ago that sort of brought me to a place of peace and strength again in the month of January where we're on our mission.

38:43

Wow. Praise the Lord. Yeah. So you two – I was just going to ask, Cindy, I may be putting you on the spot here, but what is one fun fact about your dad that you would want people to know that's maybe not a commonly known thing about him?

39:01

Well – And you can think on that because I know I put you on the spot. I can tell you something funny off the top of my head.

39:09

Oh, awesome. I do tell – there is a funny story in the book about his hairpiece.

39:15

Walter Martin did wear a hairpiece. Yes, he did. And he was really a funny guy. He did joke about it himself in his

39:22

Bible class. He was not proud at all. He was hilarious. There's a very funny story in the book that happened to him and his children when we were out once.

39:32

And so I do share that in there, and, yeah, that comes to mind immediately. With the hairpiece. That's great. He was so much fun.

39:38

He was so much fun. Good. Joy? Well, I – yeah, when

39:44

I think of your dad, I, of course, think of his ministry, but I also think of his clothing style and the stuff

39:54

I've watched on YouTube. I have just always – that's just been this, like, little part that I've always enjoyed about him, just the suits that he would wear.

40:02

And it just seemed like he had – now, I guess here's my question. This is a question

40:08

I can ask. Was that your dad or was that your mom putting, like, behind him putting all that together?

40:17

No, no. Probably there should have been more putting together. Oh. No, that was him.

40:24

I mean, he was really comfortable in his own skin is the best way I can say it.

40:30

He really was. And that's one of the things I loved about him tremendously, that he was so comfortable in his own skin because he could – you know, his humor, you know, he could make fun of himself.

40:41

He just – I can remember going to Hawaii with him when I was a teenager. And, you know,

40:47

God forgive me, but I laughed at my dad with my brother. I'm walking behind him and he's in this really loud

40:53

Hawaiian shirt, you know, that says, I'm here. Yeah. And it was so loud.

40:59

I mean, it was just so funny and so colorful. And he was just – he was so cute.

41:04

And, you know, I look back at it now and I think, oh, he was just so adorable. I just love him so much. And he just – he wasn't concerned about what people thought of him.

41:13

Yeah. He just – he lived life to the fullest and he was a kind person and he spoke the truth in love and loved the

41:19

Lord with all his heart and soul. And, you know, he wore a cross all the time. He did. You know, it didn't matter if he was just casually dressed.

41:27

And we had crosses a lot in our home. He had them in practically every room of the house.

41:32

He had a cross. And I remember him saying one time that he wears it because the devil doesn't like it. And he just wanted to always have his attention and focus on the cross of Jesus Christ and the price he paid.

41:44

And he always had that before us as well. And so just, yeah, just a quirky guy but just a unique person.

41:53

I was going to ask you, you mentioned his sense of humor. I feel like he had a really great sense of humor. And I know one thing

41:58

I think sometimes Christians get overly pietistic about, like, people in that position, pastors, you know, like making jokes and, like, having fun.

42:08

Like you're not allowed to have fun if you're a pastor or an apologist, you know. And I get this sense of feeling from watching him that he was a really funny guy.

42:16

Can you talk about that a little bit? Oh, yes. Yes, he really was. And, you know, when I was writing the book,

42:21

I was thinking, oh, gosh, do I put this hairpiece story in or not? Well, I'm going to put this in because he was just so great.

42:30

And he was just, like I said, he'd laugh at himself and he would do stuff that was so funny. He liked, he would,

42:36

I used to tickle him. This probably sounds really funny, but, I mean, he was standing in our kitchen and I'd just walk up behind him randomly.

42:44

You know, he'd be talking to somebody and not, you know, it would be a family member he'd be talking to.

42:49

And I would just randomly walk up behind him and I would tickle him. And he just, he couldn't stand being tickled.

42:55

And he would just roar. And he was just very playful and fun. And he just, you know, he wouldn't get mad at you for stuff like that.

43:01

He just would join in. And he was just, he was just fun. That's awesome. He was absolutely just a joy to be around.

43:08

And I can tell you one story that is in the book where, you know, we visited him a lot.

43:13

Rick and I were in Arizona for quite a few years. And we used to drive back and forth between Glendale, Arizona and San Juan Capistrano and see him quite a bit.

43:25

And then he would come and visit us as well. And when our little girl Stacy was, you know, about, oh gosh,

43:32

I think she was like five years old or something. And she had a Cabbage Patch doll. And my dad was, my dad and my stepmom

43:40

Darlene were babysitting for us for a little while. And when I came home with my husband from being out,

43:46

I went to the family room. And there was my dad sitting there with his arm around this Cabbage Patch doll.

43:53

And our daughter Stacy was nowhere in sight. And he's just sitting there watching TV, you know, just with his arm around the

44:00

Cabbage Patch doll. And I said, hi, dad. And he looks up at me and he smiles and he said, oh,

44:07

I'm babysitting for Stacy. She needed to go shopping. And I'm keeping an eye on the baby for her.

44:13

Oh, that's awesome. That's great. You know, he was just the most precious grandfather that you could have hoped for.

44:19

And I just, I loved that. I love that part too, getting to see him with my children.

44:26

That was such a joy to see him with my children. Wow. That's great. Well, I love your dad even more now after this talk.

44:33

Absolutely. George, you have anything else you want to add? No. That was it? So the name of the book is The Bible Answer Man, Walter Martin and Hank Hanegraaff.

44:40

Dr. Martin's daughter reflects on its founder, its history, and its current president. It'll be out in the next month.

44:47

You can get it on Amazon. A month or two. A month or two. It'll be on Amazon at least. And hopefully we'll update you guys about wherever else you guys can get it.

44:56

I will be definitely getting a copy. Can you preorder it now, Cindy? No, not yet, but soon.

45:01

Okay. Well, we will make sure to update everybody. And maybe when the book comes out, we can talk about it even more and make sure more people get it.

45:07

Okay, sister? Okay. Well, thank you, Jeff, so much. It's so great to be with you all. Absolutely.

45:12

It was a real, real pleasure and joy to have you on today. Well, thank you.

45:18

God bless you guys. God bless you. Thank you so much. All right, guys. I don't know if that was really for everyone watching or if it was for me personally.

45:27

For you. All right. So what did you guys think? Was that awesome or what? That was awesome. That was cool, huh? Now, all she did was whet my appetite.

45:34

I know. Which is, I mean, she has the book coming out. She's a great salesman. She can't give it all away.

45:41

She's good at selling her books. She just sold a lot of books. She's very wise. Yes. Just like her dad.

45:46

That's right. So you need to get that book, y 'all. Wow. So what else happens since I've been gone? Anything significant we need to talk about in the next few minutes here?

45:53

What else has happened in the world? Let's talk real fast since everyone's still on watching. I want to talk for a second about the

45:59

State of the Union speech last night. Did you guys catch some of that? I actually did not, but I heard some of what was said.

46:08

Why did everyone wear white? I haven't gotten that yet. I know that I see all the memes about, like, you haven't seen this many

46:13

Democrats dressed in white since they started the KKK. All that stuff. I have no idea if that was just a...

46:20

I know it was the ladies. Some sort of statement about... Was that like a matching thing?

46:26

Something. I don't know. Sorry, guys. We're in the dark on this. It's been a busy last week for us. I did see a very funny...

46:32

Somebody, one of my Facebook friends, shared a picture of her watching the State of the Union. And she had put a towel over the part of her television that had

46:41

Nancy Pelosi on it. So she was like, this is how you need to watch it. She just had a towel over her top.

46:47

I did. No, I will say I watched it. And that was... The thing I kept finding myself do is...

46:52

I'm not watching President Trump anymore. I'm just looking at Pelosi. I'm like, what is she chewing?

46:58

First of all... Her gums. Sometimes I feel when I was watching... This is not even a political commentary at all.

47:06

But sometimes if I... I was watching it, and then I would kind of look away.

47:12

And I could just hear Trump's voice. And I felt like sometimes Trump was doing an impression of himself.

47:19

He got a little overly Trump -ish. And I'd be like, he's not doing an impression of himself.

47:26

But... I don't know. That's how... That's what a character he is,

47:31

I guess. Somebody said it was supposed to be a tribute to the suffragettes. Oh, okay. Oh, thank you guys.

47:37

This is great. It's good to have the live audience sometimes. But not always. No. We've already unbounced somewhere. So, just to talk about the

47:45

State of the Union speech. One thing I will say is that, of course, I don't believe that President Trump was completely consistent with what he said.

47:53

However, I'm thankful. I'm thankful. In terms of, he said that the unborn and the born are made in the image of God.

48:01

Or image bearers of God. And so I want to say, hey, thank God for that. Because we certainly didn't hear that during the previous eight years.

48:11

And it was the exact opposite. And so I am thankful to God that Donald Trump has Christian men and women around him who are speaking into his life and trying to reach him.

48:21

And I am thankful that we had a president who had the courage to stand before the opposition in that way and to say these are image bearers of God, unborn and born.

48:32

And the fact that he talks about these people are saying that you can kill your baby up to its birth.

48:38

And it was amazing to see everyone stand up on one side and applaud and cheer. And the other side, you've got all these

48:44

Democrats and all these pro -aborts that are sitting there just quietly folding their arms. It's like you have no excuse.

48:51

Don't act like you're being brave and proud by sitting down like that. You have no excuse.

48:57

And it was such, I felt like, an embarrassment for the left in terms of this is so grotesque.

49:05

The inconsistency with Trump is if they're image of God and they're unborn, that means you protect them from conception.

49:12

So there's the inconsistency. But of course, we all recognize that 40 weeks is extremely bloody.

49:20

There's a lot more blood. Well, that flies in the face of a lot of the argumentation that you get from the left, which is that because of how the baby looks, at 40 weeks, your argument can never be it's a clump of cells.

49:32

Right. Ever. So that's not a good enough argument for me personally. That's a good point.

49:37

Because even if, well, even early on, a baby does not look like a clump of cells.

49:46

From very early on, it looks like a little human. But you can't even argue that at 40 weeks.

49:52

That's right. Not even at all. Yeah. And, you know, so I felt like here was a, it was actually a pretty majestic moment where the president of the

50:00

United States says image of God, unborn and born. And he talked, he dissed, he dissed

50:05

New York. And he talked about how disgusting it was, essentially, that you had New York politicians applauding and praising the ability to kill these children that are ready to be born.

50:15

And I was, I thought, as the camera pans over to the people who are, you know, sort of, we should be able to kill our babies.

50:21

Like, you know, they're sitting over there. I'm like, you guys have nothing. This doesn't look courageous, even from your perspective.

50:27

You're talking about tearing the arms and legs off of fully formed human beings. It's very bloody.

50:33

It's very graphic. And you're still going to sit there, sort of, very proud. Just, we should still be able to kill our babies. Like, I thought how much of a beautiful exposure that was in that moment.

50:43

They have all these proud people refusing to stand for life, human life.

50:51

I did think it was amazing, too. Did you guys hear that the woman who, that woman that was up before the legislature that was arguing for the right to kill babies up to birth, she actually was also behind trying to put legislation in to protect, like, insects.

51:06

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That particular fly or whatever. I don't have any restrictions on when

51:12

I can kill a baby. No, there's no restrictions. No, there's, I don't think there are any. And it's the same woman that's putting in things to, like, protect insects.

51:18

It's like, unbelievable. Well, it's all documented. And even, like, I just, even if you consider our ability to look back on things like the

51:28

Holocaust through documentation, pictures and video and stuff like that, and just the shame that is heaped upon the people that perpetrated that, it's countless times more now.

51:43

And so there will be a moment when we look at all of this collectively and I really think people will be, will have no words.

51:55

Christian schoolchildren 500 years from now are going to be going into a museum in Washington, D .C.

52:01

that's like the Holocaust, and it'll be the abortion museum. And Christian schoolchildren will walk through this museum and there'll be little videos playing.

52:09

And one of those videos is going to be that woman saying there are no restrictions, you can kill them really at any time.

52:15

And then it'll have her bill next to it of where she was trying to protect insects. And then they'll have the video of the applause happening in New York City where they approve the ability to kill a child up to birth.

52:24

You'll have all these videos. You'll also have that video of the State of the Union speech where the President of the

52:29

United States calls them image bearers of God and you've got a whole side of the auditorium that's just sitting there going...

52:36

And just... Women. Women. Yes, women. That was the thing that got me.

52:42

I'm glad you pointed that out. I couldn't think of what I was trying to get at right there. That's the point. It was all women.

52:48

The person who is charged to grow and protect and feed and then when it's born, you feed it.

53:00

Just callous. That's what got me. Was that it was all the women in white just sitting there sort of just... And I'm like, but you're the mommies.

53:08

You're the mommies. That's terrible. Well, hopefully, I applaud Trump for that. Now, if he would only act upon those words, then you'll really earn some respect.

53:17

We're moving our way forward, guys. We're going to fight this battle with the Word of God, the truth, and the gospel.

53:23

But we are seeing some moments of victorious speech and language that I'm liking.

53:31

And so let's not merely stand over the president and say, but you're not fully consistent.

53:38

You know, you're a fool or you're stupid. Let's say, hey, that's not really consistent. But can we move towards more?

53:44

We're very proud of you that you use that language and you're courageous. But let's try to get all the way consistent here.

53:49

Let's hold our magistrates accountable, right? Yes. And an example, I'm going to bring this up now.

53:55

You know, we had Bradley Pierce on about a month ago talking about Jeremiah's wish. You know, Governor Abbott in Texas made a promise to a dying boy, dying of cancer, that he would end abortion in Texas.

54:09

And just yesterday, he had the opportunity in his speech to mention it and failed to do so. With 70 ,000...

54:15

Actually, I think they have 75 ,000 petitions now. So let's do this. Everybody who's watching this right now or who watches it later, why don't you go ahead and tag

54:22

Governor Abbott and his office in something on your social media platforms today, on Twitter, on Facebook.

54:27

Let's all actually fill up the governor's feed with a reminder of Jeremiah's wish and his commitment to a dying boy.

54:37

Was that just words to a dying boy? Was it just an encouragement to a dying boy? Or is

54:42

Governor Abbott going to be consistent with his convictions? And so let's go ahead and do that. I'm going to do that myself today.

54:48

I'm going to tag Governor Abbott and his office in a post to alert him to the fact that he made a promise to a dying boy.

54:54

You had 73 ,000 petitions go into Texas yesterday. And you have a large population of people that will support you,

55:04

Governor Abbott. We hope that you do what you said you will do, my friend. All right. Amen.

55:10

So that's it. Great show. That's it for today, guys. Thank you guys for watching. That's Luke the Bear. Peace out. Joy the Girl. See ya.

55:15

I'm Jeff the Calm of the Ninja. We'll catch you guys next time right here on Apologia Radio. You can get more at apologiastudios .com.

55:21

Don't forget to sign up for All Access. When you guys sign up for All Access, you make everything that we do possible, whether it's the ministry to the cults, to atheism, whether it's all of our outreach and teaching ministry, whether it is the ministry in the area of abortion mill ministry where you guys are getting to watch that content.

55:35

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55:43

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55:55

Oh, I almost forgot. Are we going to talk about it? Well, we haven't made any plans.

56:03

Meat Fest? What are we talking about? He doesn't even know. So let's do this. We should tell people to watch for it because we've got to figure out how we're going to do it.

56:11

Maybe tomorrow we are going to announce. That's good. Maybe later today. I don't know. We'll find a way to get back on with you guys and be on the lookout for it.

56:17

We are going to do another Meat Fest. Okay. 2019. We should probably explain what that means.

56:24

Meat Fest 2019. We've done this before in the past, and it's always been very, very exciting. We are trying to raise funds for our mission on the island of Kauai to bring the gospel there, to win that island to Christ.

56:36

However, we always do this in a very unique way. We call it Meat Fest because what we do is for all of you guys who donate, we want to give you a gift.

56:45

We want to give you some incentive as well to partner with us in this mission. So what we do is we put everyone who is given towards this ministry into something.

56:54

We draw maybe one or two names. I think we could do two. And what we do is we fly you out from wherever you're at, as long as it's in Canada or the

57:05

United States of America. We fly you out, and we put you up in a nice hotel.

57:10

We bring you on to Apologia Studios and their program, and you get to have a tour of the whole place.

57:16

And then we take you out to one of our favorite restaurants. It's in Scottsdale. It's called Pogo de Chow. And they come to you with meat on swords, and they just slice up meat on swords.

57:27

It's all you can eat. It's all you can eat. The best meat in the world. It's the best. It's so amazing. It's Meat Fest 2019.

57:33

So watch for that. Be on the lookout for it, guys. We'll let you guys know in the next day or two and how you guys can participate with us in our ministry in the island of Kauai.

57:41

And so that's sort of a heads up. Be on the lookout for that. The last times we've done it, it's been a blast.

57:48

It's been a lot of fun. And some cool people have won in the past too. That's right. That's right. And so this time I think we could probably commit to two.

57:55

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, we'll try to get two of you out from wherever you're at. Again, no cost to you. We'll bring you out.

58:00

We'll put you up in a hotel. We'll take care of you while you're here. We'll feed you. We'll take care of you the whole time you're here, but especially at Pogo the

58:07

Chow. All right, guys. Luke loves it when I say that. All right.