September 14, 2004

Opening Remarks on the Dividing Line and Live Call-In Format

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic. Here is James white.

Tennis, Travel, and the Morning Show Banter

Well, good afternoon or morning, whichever it is for you. Welcome to the dividing line. We are live today on September 14th 2004. I was just telling angel about about some avi's we have hiding on her.

Just realized that could really cause pouring some some nightmares. Especially if you like watermelon that would be bad thing. 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is phone number if you want to be involved but we haven't taken phone calls in a long long time and some of you are probably thinking that.

Oh, please don't even mention that someone just mentioned the cheeseburger I had Harvey's up in Canada and That was that was just wrong. That is the only way to describe it that cheeseburger was wrong.

What was that actually beef. I Looked a couple times and it you know, I was just so hungry at that time and it was so, you know Late in the evening that I ate it. Anyway, but it was just it was a Canadian cloned cloud a cow a Canadian cloned cow.

Yeah, that would explain it because that was just I was it was wrong. That's Describe. This morning I was I was going over to get Destroyed in tennis and and that's that's what happened. I played the best of played in a long time, but you know you just can't getting this body to accelerate is in is an ugly ugly thing and anyway, I Was on my way over early in the morning because you have to play real early in the morning to really survive here in Phoenix.

Right now and I was listening right at the beginning at six o 'clock to the Laura Ingram show and she was late. The theme music's on and they're putting her on on her cell phone. Then she'd get in the elevator and it would disappear and she goes running comes running into the studio five minutes late.

I mean they're on the air and She was talking about, you know traffic and and of course, she immediately pulled the the the sexist card. Well, it takes us women longer to get ready. It's like yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, sure. Mm, right. Anyway, I haven't done that. I don't think we've ever been the only time we've ever been late on this program was we couldn't get the computer to work. That was the only time. No, not at night under the lights.

I I don't see the ball under those lights. I haven't let's put this way I haven't found lights that work well enough that I can actually see the ball. I don't see the ball until it's over the net and that's just too late.

If you know anything about tennis, I was once a very good tennis player. Really? I went to state as a sophomore and I really I do know the game and in fact I could teach the game pretty well. It's just convincing your body to do what it did 20 years ago.

That's it's a sad reminder of the passage. It really is anyway, we haven't taken phone calls a long time and some of you are probably thinking there's no way you'll be taking phone calls today and the reason the reason for that is.

No, yeah, not even with my miracle glasses. Yeah, I've got those bullies that allow you to see the optic yellow over a while but not under lights and it's just too that just doesn't work and I Let I let rich try those and he didn't like that.

That was funny, oh, yeah 20 years I I was playing Even longer ago than that. I remember one summer when I was about I don't know 14 years old. We would me and a friend we would go out and we would play tennis in Phoenix from like Noon to three or one to four in the afternoon.

Now if you know anything about Phoenix and there's no shade. We were playing for like three hours at a hun anywhere from a hundred and five to a hundred and twelve. Somewhere around there depending on and that's that's in the shade and you were not in the shade.

I almost looked like I was a different race at the end of that summer. And yeah, I was just I when I when I get into a sport, I really get into that sport big-time and and tennis is great. But you know what?

You gotta you gotta have fast footwork. You got to just be moving all the time and it's great aerobic stuff. But Wow. Anyway, at least the person who beat me is a member of the United States Tennis Association and is a pro so Getting four games wasn't overly bad.

I guess. In fact, I played the best I've played in in two years, but I have no backhand anymore and it was it was sad. So anyway, that's neither here nor there I'll get so wiped off the court again tomorrow morning.

In fact as well. So a seven seven seven five three three four we haven't taken phone calls some of you are saying you're not going to because you keep yapping about Tennis and talking to people in the in the chat channel, and I'm sorry about that and the reason being that.

Most of you are probably assuming that I'm going to sit here and do nothing but respond once again to The dr. Seyfried who wrote a three and a half page response to me yesterday in which. And I'm not gonna do that I'm I might deal with like the first paragraph, but I've already started writing my response.

But my response could take the form of an open letter and I'm not gonna rush it. In fact that it was odd there almost seemed to be a complaint that that I responded too quickly to stuff before. It evidently it doesn't matter what I say.

It doesn't matter how I say it I'm gonna be wrong for even bothering to say it evidently since since the seminary has spoken. That's it whether my questions and whether my Concerns Have been addressed doesn't seem to matter it just seems to be you're not supposed to question these things.

You know scholars have the right to say what they want to say and and if you happen to believe the things that they Say are wrong and sub-biblical. Just just take it man. That's just the way it is so.

Anyway, no matter what I say no matter how careful, I am in saying it it just it's not going to make any difference one way or the other and You know if I make sure not to say anything Personal about dr. Seyfried then he will have all the freedom to say everything personal about me.

He'll be able to refer people to Paul Owen. Oh, by the way obviously Those of you who read the blog know that last week. I challenged Paul Owen to come on this program he wrote a lie filled article that I started to review last week and and It's just you know it's just in-your-face Razor type stuff you know that's all it is and by now everyone's got an idea who Paul Owen is and everybody has an idea of the level of his behavior and That's just the way it is, but I you know I challenged him to come on the program because you know he Went after me personally.

He's some somehow has the ability to read my motivations and So I I got an email back from him and of course he said that you know he wasn't gonna do that and da da da Da and I told you last week He wouldn't because he knows he's a very bright man even though he Constantly has to attack my intelligence and say I'm stupid and hey, maybe I am I'll let the readers decide I'll let those you all go get all of dr. Owens books and all of his articles and pick up all of his debate DVDs and things like that and You compare him with what I've done, and I'll leave it up to you to decide.

You know if he has any basis for his Not only attacks upon me, but you'll notice what I post on the web. He really doesn't feel that if you've been benefited by this ministry that you're an overly intelligent person either.

And he also has an odd view of the pulpit ministry. He definitely is the poster child for modern academia he definitely Shows us what the Academy and can devolve into and what I don't want to ever ever be a part of personally if That's if that's what it means to be a part of the Academy.

Well. You can have the Academy I'm not interested, but we invite him to come on the program. He won't because he knows that I will then ask him. Okay. You said this where did I say that about dr. Seyfried you said this where'd you get that could you document this and he can't and he knows that.

He's an intelligent person. He knows that he's engaging in very childish behavior, and he won't defend it so we gave him the opportunity and of course he he was you know not willing to do that and so you know that's that's how it is.

I mentioned that that was the way it was going to be and That's just how it ended up working out so anyways that we won't have we won't have their. That won't be happening. This is our new That's actually somebody else's theme song we use that for poor Rusty and Rusty's in channel now.

And but you know what it fits so much better for a guy who is Just a little bit. It suffers from little man's disease. That's that's probably got. Hey, I heard that from you, you know I never heard that till you introduced me to it.

Thank you, you don't need to turn your microphone. They can hear you laughing through the door. That's just all there is to it man. I'm sorry, but you know life is life. I've been listening to enough Laura Ingram recently tonight starting to develop a backbone.

Rusty just heard me mention him hi rusty rusty is the man who has the most nicks in channel. I think he's getting close to 1 ,800 Nick so far since January, and I'm sorry you know if.

Academia keeps up this kind of dialogue. We may have to get a picture of Spurgeon or Boyce and put it on a milk carton.

Thinking about this too. I said you've seen this theologian. We haven't seen anything like you have you read this theologian. Is he just a fallible human being. Well, you know I think he is a fallible human being.

That's what he claimed to be. But that's an odd way of putting it anyways. That's we'll get around to it eventually. Anyhow, but no I'm not gonna sit around and and do that today. It's just it's just that's just not.

It would be too boring however we do. Being encouraged very strongly. Go ahead go ahead do it do it. No, no no no you just do. We all just do not. Understand we need to do other things like.

That's the Spanish Inquisition, I am usually referred to as the master. There are some who call me.

Dave Armstrong, Catholic Answers, and the Debate Over Sola Scriptura

Yes indeed it is time to continue your review of Dave Armstrong on Catholic answers and We have definitely rejuvenated Dave's experience on his blog. He he's been cranking him out and It's really It's really shrill in fact what it reminds me of a little bit is you know if you listen to Rush Limbaugh years ago He had that Theme song for the like the NEA crowd the the feminazis and And they had this thing from this rally where this was is we're we're Feminists and we're in your face, and then they just kept making it get squeakier and squeakier.

That's what keeps going through my mind whenever I Just sort of zoom past Dave's blog the past past couple weeks because it's just been wow. Like I said just keeps proving my point as we keep as we keep.

It's hey if you're gonna do one or two things you're gonna laugh you're gonna cry. You know there's this it's just one of those two things so That's what we're gonna. Do so we're picking up with with Dave Armstrong like I said right toward the end of this program.

There's this great call. It is really really good, but we stopped. I keep putting Little sticky notes on my computer screen which of course I don't put sticky notes on a computer screen. But I have the sticky note program, which is really cool by the way, and so I just keep putting in there.

What where we are in the program and as I recall we stopped somewhere around here?

All right, let's take a short break here on the program. Dave Armstrong with us for the first time on Catholic answers. I'm doing a great job. We appreciate your insight here. And we have more questions and the calls to get to on the other side of the break.

And I believe we have an open phone line at by the way Ben. Thanks for that phone call. Triple-a.

3 -1. Let's get to the break here. Let's hear. Better place. Well that sounded really odd. Didn't. Make it more capital. Make the world a better place. To make it more capital of guide public by Catholic it.

Oh voters guide.

You know that was with today's guest. That's all the battery at 1 8 8 8 to 31. True. That's one triple 8 3 1 8 7 8 8 4 and now. That's Johnny in the background. Johnny's coming to Phoenix. Thank you your great questions for Dave Armstrong today.

Line number one. We go to Toronto Canada program.

Very well, thanks for the call. Good. I thought I would contribute to the discussion by recalling In the actually Apostles on Pentecost Sunday Peter addressed a large crowd and now 3 ,000 or so were converted to and it goes on to say at chapter 2 of Acts verse 42 These remained faithful to the teaching of the Apostles As well as to the brotherhood to the breaking of the bread to the prayers but I'm my emphasis for this for this conversation is Remaining faithful to the teaching of the Apostles as opposed to written scripture.

Wow.

Let's stop that right there. Hmm. So to be relevant to the issue of solo scriptura, what would have to follow? Well, what would have to follow is that what is in the teaching the Apostles is different than what they then in scripturated?

Under the guidance the Holy Spirit in the writings of Paul the writings of Peter and things like that, right? That's that's what would have to be relevant because we're talking here about before the writing of the New Testament.

So that's how it'd be relevant and I'm sure that that'll be brought up here as we continue on.

I think that is a something worthwhile keeping in mind and through the topic. Yeah, that's good.

The second thing is just from my own experience. Wait a minute. Was that a comment? I think that I think we just missed the comment. Yeah, that's good. Okay. All right, there is the comment.

People that I have talked to who express a conviction about Sola scriptura at that be mean. Well, I do. At the same time a number of these people will say they have such a close relationship with Jesus Themselves that they don't need any other man for the forgiveness of sins.

Whereas at the end of John chapter 20 Gives to and on the evening of the resurrection the power to forgive or to retain sins.

Power of the keys. Which of course is in regards the proclamation of the gospel. But if you sort of lost the connection here, especially regards Sola scriptura.

Yeah, so that if people really believed in scripture They would want to find out who those people are that have the power to forgive or retain sins, yeah. So that's all I was going to contribute. I don't really have a question.

That's that. Those are good comments, Dave.

I'm sure you. If you didn't have the the passages there and those ideas in your arsenal, you're probably gonna add them now.

Well, I had a few 42 but I'd like to I like that that one I like that that I want to hear that again.

So that's all I was going to contribute. I don't really have a question but that's that those are. Yeah good comments, Dave.

I'm sure you. If you didn't have the the passages there and those ideas in your arsenal, you're probably going to add them now.

But I'd like to quote one more dimension second Timothy 1 13 and 14 is similar because Paul says Follow the pattern of the sound words, which you have heard from me. Guard the truth which has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

Mm-hmm. So that doesn't mention writing. It says words, but it's oral words. Wow, that doesn't mention writing.

Well, wait a minute when when Paul wrote to Timothy before he left. Let's see. He says in second Timothy and trust what you've heard from me to men who are Worthy and and they're able to teach. That that must be those oral traditions so that that why does Dave hold to the material sufficiency viewpoint if.

Clearly, that's part and part them. Oh Well, you know, it's convenient to just you know, sort of go back and forth between each one. But when when when Paul is actually getting ready to depart, what does he refer Timothy to?

Does he refer Timothy to the oral traditions outside of Scripture or does he refer Timothy to that? Which is they are new sauce. Oh, I think it's that they are new stuff stuff. That's that's where it came from.

So.

That's a motif in Scripture that it's the oral teaching and. That's really what? When you read Acts and see what the first Christians did they went out and they they preached the gospel. Which is Jesus Christ dying for us rising from the dead.

They didn't hand out Bibles.

They Didn't hand out Bibles, of course the New Testament hadn't been written yet and Wow when when they did go into the synagogue. What did they do? They said the scripture says and that was the final argument again.

Does anyone else notice that these folks just aren't overly there doesn't seem to be a concern here about? Actually addressing the position of Anyone other than shall we say. And I don't get angry here, but but shallow theological fundamentalists and what I mean by that Conservative people they've got the right ideas in general.

But they've never really thought through why they have those ideas these this type of argumentation Would only be relevant to those people. They're not trying to convince myself I'm trying to convince people like that.

They're trying to convince the people in our chat channel the people in my church because We think past those issues. We discuss those issues far beyond this. It's just this this well, you know, listen to the Apostles had oral teaching.

What does that have to do with Rome. Has Rome ever defined a single word that they taught? That they actually spoke outside of Scripture. No, they haven't. Where is this tradition we keep asking? Can you show us this tradition today before you come up with some new dogma based upon it and claim it came from the Apostles?

Can you tell us what's in this tradition today, and they cannot do so. You can't come up with what teachings Exist within this alleged tradition. You just can't do it. You didn't have as many.

You didn't have the printing press but. So no one can deny that it was an oral proclamation. As I'll make the argument that. Well, yeah in those days it was oral but then when the Bible was finished now, it's all scriptura.

Well. Now what would be the difference?

Between The book of Acts the period described in the book of Acts and a period one century later. Dave. That you and I would both agree on. This is where the debate thing works because if this was cross-examination and this would be his time to answer see.

But he won't do that. So I will I will need to answer for him and that is the difference being that we both agree on is that there's no more revelation taking place. So the scriptura has come into existence whereas in the primitive church in the book of Acts The scriptura that is in the New Testament is still being written.

So solo scriptura speaks to today. What is the honest us today? What is binding today? Do you have Apostles? No, we don't have a puzzle. Do you have continuing revelation? No. We don't have continuing revelation and Roman Catholics get upset and because sometimes they're misrepresented people will misrepresent the Pope as if the Pope is like the the the prophet in Salt Lake City who 100 years ago not anymore really but the prophet in Salt Lake City, you know receives these revelations and you write it down you make it scripture.

That's a misrepresentation. That's not the understanding of the concept of revelation. They'll get upset when they're misrepresented that way but if they're going to be consistent then you're gonna have to admit that in reality something did change and You need to address the issue as it is today.

What is the honest us today? And how do you know and when you look at what Rome has done over the years? When you look at what what she's done in her dogmas, you know people they all get upset when I keep focusing on Mary well, I'm sorry, but the last the last Three dogmas that have been defined alleged in the basis tradition two of the three are about Mary one's about the infallibility of the Pope and When we debate these issues historically folks go listen to the debate.

We did the sound sadly is terrible. This was long before we began doing our own sound recording and video recording. But go back and listen to the first debate in Long Island with Jerry Medetic's on Mary and listen to the cross-examination and You'll see that when we debate these issues historically it doesn't go real well for the other side.

It really doesn't and that's why we address those issues is because this is where tradition is most clearly seen as Rome understands it and as Rome uses it. I don't think that flies logically or The Bible has authority, but it's not the only authority.

So ah, so there is another equal authority. Evidently, that would be the only way to understand that statement. But as soon as you say well, you know We've got the three legs and the data and that would mean those are the things are what they're the honest us.

Where do you find that in Scripture? You don't find Paul teaching? There's something else. It's they honest us. Why didn't Paul tell Timothy and why didn't Paul tell the Ephesian elders look to Peter?

Look to the successors of Peter look to the oral tradition. He didn't do any of those things. He didn't identify in those sources as being they honest us, right Brian.

Thanks again for the phone call and for joining us. You got us on EWTN global shortwave radio. Let's move along line four. We will talk next with Betty calling from Rochester, New York. She has us on WVO a today.

Betty oh, hi. I Am. I was talking with your screener and I told her I think a wonderful book that would resolve this problem. For not just Protestants, but for a lot of Catholics because today everything is a little bit mixed up the most wonderful book I ever have read is rebuilding a lost faith by an American agnostic John L Stoddard.

And In that book Stresses that Jesus Christ never wrote a book and he never asked anybody else to it was the church. He found it in the authority He gave the power to that decided that the parchment and the sermons Had to be preserved and there is your former caller said there was no printing press You know and they started gathering them together.

And it was a few hundred years before they were able to print out some Bibles. And they certainly were not plentiful and everybody didn't have one or probably couldn't have afforded one. So it was many many many hundreds of years before there were really a lot of Bibles and everything was word-of-mouth and Individual parchments that the Catholic Church had to sort through.

Now you notice again here nice nice little ladies calling in but not a real critical presentation here. You don't have any seeming understanding of the centrality of Scripture in the writing of the New Testament itself.

You want to many Catholics want to sort of push off the idea that anyone even we knew what the Bible was for hundreds of Years that everything was was all confusion and personal opinion. And it's all based on this oral tradition as if this or that oral tradition of that time had anything to do With the Rome's traditions today, etc. Etc. Etc.

And Jesus never wrote a book. Well, that's wonderful through his Holy Spirit. He wrote 66 of them.

Hello, I thought we were Trinitarians here somewhere organized and decide how the Bible would be put together.

And of course the assumption that the ancient church back then was the Roman Church. I was talking with somebody at the up in Toronto about this and I pointed out, you know. This is a challenge that I've thrown out many many times.

To ask a Roman Catholic apologist. Name me someone at the Council of Nicaea who believed. What you believe about Salvation. What you believe about the canon. What you believe about? Mary. What you believe about the Bishop of Rome.

Name me someone at the council at the Council of Nicaea in 325. Who believed all the things you believe on those issues. Who believed in purgatory. Believe in indulgences. Believe in papal infallibility.

Believe in the body assumption of Mary. Believed in these things. Show me someone who believed that. Well. They can't and that's where you get all the development stuff. Well the acorn in the tree and all the rest that stuff.

And yet they want to sit there and say but That was our church. We've just sort of grown and developed and blossomed and all that neat wonderful fun stuff. And I say, you know, it's interesting if I walked into a church today where the people didn't believe this this this this and this.

I wouldn't call it a Roman Catholic Church, but you insist upon calling that their own Catholic Church.

It's an odd double standard that doesn't really work overly. Well, and that's the fact you can't deny it. Actually, that's a good observation. Oh, I love John L. Stoddard's book. I've worn it out in just a few years.

I need another one. I love it. Good choice. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye Betty.

Well can't argue with that Dave I guess huh? Oh, I agree with her.

Hey, they could add to me too, but it just sort of sounds fine. So do we save? Do. Let's let's go ahead and take our break and Let's come back to this because I want to get this last caller in his last caller was a lot of fun.

So, uh, let's let's go ahead and take our break and return to Dave Armstrong on Catholic answers live. We'll be right back.

Break and Promotional Material on Justification, Bible Translation, and a Debate Event

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Technical Glitch and Return to the Broadcast

Why isn't this telling me how many files I have in here. Mm-hmm. Where's it? Oh, oh, well, it's supposed to tell me how many files I have in there, isn't it? At least you used to tell me that isn't that what it's supposed to.

I can't say I can't see there's there's. I don't know How many thousands of sound files we have in here, but there's a lot of stuff we could do with them. If in point of fact I I could oh was that you know.

How do you. I can't preview something because you'll all hear it and that that would really that's a bummer. Oh, well, I was gonna have something fun to play there. But we will continue on welcome back.

According to according to Rush Limbaugh, just simply talking to yourself on the air is a good thing. So reading from the how-to book Rush Limbaugh, let's continue on Listening to Dave Armstrong on Catholic Uncertainty.

Well, you know what?

I have a feeling from our next call here that not everybody who's listening to us today is in complete Concert with everything that we're saying. Yes, thank.

You. It wasn't necessarily that day we were listening but since then here comes the fun call here we go.

Sola Scriptura, Tradition, and the Catholic Claim to Authority

I think line to Malcolm in Washington State has some thoughts to add to the program. Malcolm. Welcome. We're happy you joined us today. Good.

I made the point that You said I didn't. I was misrepresenting but I made. I Wanted to make sure to make the point that Protestants don't aren't totally against tradition. So I did say that.

You know, I I Think I made that comment, too.

And on the last call I was agreeing with the fact that it was mostly oral in the beginning. If the emphasis wasn't on writing. That's simply historical fact. You didn't even have the first mention of all the books in the New Testament in one place is by st. Athanasius and I think the year was 367.

So you're talking about 330 years after Jesus died. Right, and no one even had a complete new distributor, but it doesn't the historical fact that it was primarily an oral tradition.

Was it primarily oral tradition day that became scripture, which would be the only logical conclusion? What was just being said? You see that you see the difference here. Yeah, you don't actually answer the question the the the caller is right and.

The problem is as a follower of Newman you you can't actually affirm That the tradition which eventually developed is anything more than in the acorn stage at this point. Anyways. His point is you've got to be able to demonstrate that this tradition contains something other than was actually found in the scriptures.

And that's not going to happen any time on this program anyways.

And you can't you can't ignore all the indications in the Bible of church authority.

Tradition now you say that traditions change church authority. There you go. Again. We've already discussed this. It's either you and your Bible in the woods or Church authority the Pope infallibility.

How about the New Testament teaching of church authority? That would be a good thing to sort of throw into the mix there, but Doesn't get in there. Which in a live debate, you know, I would make sure that happened, but you can't really do that.

Well, I'll give you one.

Catholic Church celibacy is based on Explicit teaching from Paul that the single person can give undistracted attention to the Lord. So I don't think I think we're running out of time.

Now I'm looking at my way for him here. Okay for those of you who aren't really into the computers that's the the graphic representation of the sound file and. We are at 45 45 and it goes to 50 42 so there is almost five minutes left in this in this program, okay, almost five minutes left and so.

Here this guy has just demonstrated without question that he has taken it out of out of context that is an improper application and. That specifically in regards to the leaders of the church Paul did not hold the position of celibacy and.

What do we get as soon as it now? It's here's Dave's chance. Here's his chance to demonstrate his self-proclaimed Exegetical expertise and so on so forth. And what happens. I didn't contact and you have to apply it to all man.