Discussing Atheism and Politics | Apologetics Live 0017

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This is the Politics Live with Matt Slick and Andrew Rappaport, part of the

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Christian Podcast Community. All right,

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I don't know how long we were live for there before Matt came in and just started it off.

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Who knows how long this has been going. It's all right. That's all right.

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They can see we're just normal people like anybody else. No big deal. All right, well, tonight we're going to do, well, as usual, be open to open

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Q &A for folks who have questions, and you can find the link to join by going to apologeticslive .com.

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That takes you to the site where there will be a link to participate. My name is

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Andrew Rappaport. I'm with Striving for Eternity and the host of Apologetics Live, and with us is our resident apologist,

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Matt Slick from Christian Apologetics Research Ministry. He's been doing apologetics for like 30 years.

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Thirty -nine. Twenty -five years old. That's my theory. Thirty -nine years. Thirty -nine years.

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I like 30. He likes to be precise, this one. Yeah, that's right, because I'm accurate, unlike some people.

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I'm still accurate. So we're hoping that we could get some folks in.

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I was at, Matt, this week went onto Skylar Fiction's channel and did a two -hour show with him.

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Okay. Although we did have, maybe it was less than that because we had lots of technical problems. But yeah,

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I do want to announce, though, before we get started, a conference that we got going on here in New Jersey, March 15th and 16th.

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It is called the Sanctification Through Suffering Conference. Now, anyone that is friends with Matt Slick knows about suffering.

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Oh, not bad. And so this conference is for you.

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No, but we're going to deal with issues of anxiety, depression, physical ailments.

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Keynotes will be provided by Justin Peters, who, for folks who don't know, he has cerebral palsy.

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We'll also have Pastor Frank Mullis, and he is one of Georgia's leading experts in sexual abuse, counsels hundreds of sexual abusers a week.

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That's a job I wouldn't want. Yeah, so he's got an extensive background in counseling.

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We're going to have breakout sessions by Pastor Joe Suazo, who is a missionary in India, suffered with physical ailments and had to return to the

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States. And returning from the mission field actually brought him into a depression. And so he'll talk some about that.

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And then for the ladies, the breakout session will be done by Colleen Sharp, who is a mother and has struggled for a long time with physical ailments, which is hard to do when you're raising several boys.

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So we're going to have some great sessions. That's going to be March 15th and 16th in Freehold, New Jersey, at the

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Chinese American Bible Church. And you can find out all of the details at strivingforeternity .org

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slash conference dash on dash suffering.

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And for once, I will beat Charlie to dropping the link in YouTube because I had it before him.

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So Charlie's quick with those. So I encourage folks to come out to that conference.

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And the cost is $40. What we're going to probably do is end a little bit early in the afternoon.

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We'll do a Q &A at 2 .30 is the plan. And then what we're going to look to do is after the

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Q &A, break up into either smaller groups or allow more one -on -one discussions with the different speakers.

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So that maybe more issues that people wouldn't want public or whatnot can get some help.

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And so the purpose is to try to help folks who are struggling with different things. And a lot of us struggle alone because we don't want to let anyone know that we're dealing with issues.

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So I encourage you to come out to that conference. Please share it with others so that they would know about it.

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Uh, you know, we should, we should raise a fund to get Matt's wife to get to go to the conference.

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Not because she's suffering with her physical ailments, but comparing her physical ailments of suffering to being married to Matt.

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I'll tell you her physically, she's so off so bad now that it's actually worse than being married to me.

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She, um, the only way when we moved to Arizona, we're going to put her on a plane and, um, because we had to have somebody fly with her.

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A drive she can't handle. Um, she's not going anywhere, doing anything.

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Anyway, that's, that's what it is. Yeah. So pray for, pray for Nick, um, that, uh, she basically sneezes and breaks a rib these days.

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So, yeah. Yeah. Not good. So, so what we wanted to start off with, and we hope folks will get in early, by the way, if you want to get questions to ask

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Matt or challenges, it is best to come in early. So go to apologeticslive .com

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and click the link to join. Now, Matt, you and I wanted to start off with discussing atheism.

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This was even before your radio show, when you got a caller that came in, but you know,

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I was on Skylar Fiction's show. We were talking about that. How badly did you do?

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Well, I did better than you cause you weren't there. That's true. That's true. Um, well it was, it actually almost turned into a

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Bible study on an agnostic show, but cause you know, it's typical.

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They want to challenge with, well, what about this verse? And one of the things is, is they want to try to show that somehow they want to come in and do an internal critique of Christianity and the

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Bible, and then somehow say that God is contradicting himself or God is, you know, setting up rules.

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He doesn't follow himself. And I find it always so interesting. I even, I pointed out to him, you're, he's not doing an internal critique when he says, well, if it's wrong to do something, you know, his, his argument was if it's wrong to always lie for us as humans and God allowed a spirit to be a lying spirit, therefore

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God must have forced that and therefore God is, uh, contradictory.

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But if you're going to do an internal critique of the Bible, you have to start with the point that God is perfect, that God can't sin, that God can't tempt.

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And therefore when God uses his people to, you know, uses people to wipe out a group of people that he's been warning, that's called justice.

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That's not called, you know, recklessness or other things that people were trying to say. So when you have people that try to do an internal critique, do you find that they often don't want to stay with their conclusions, with the viewing of the conclusions that we see in Scripture?

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I understand the question. Internal critique, because an atheist couldn't do that of the Scriptures.

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Wouldn't be an internal, unless you mean that they're looking at what the Scripture says. Well, that's the point.

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They, if they're going to do an internal critique, they have to do it from what the Scriptures say, but when they draw the conclusions, their conclusions are based on their worldview, not the

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Scripture's worldview. And that's where I think they fail in doing internal critiques. Right. Well, their worldview doesn't carry any water at all.

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But when they, like an atheist today called up and, I forgot what the issue was.

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Oh, yeah, you know, it's a standard thing. And he had to explain all these details. I got the point within a few seconds.

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But you have a little old lady. She's really nice. She helps out. She does this. She does that. She's a really good person.

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There's all kinds of good works. I go, gotcha, you know. And then you have a murderer, and he's been bad his whole life.

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And he gets to go to heaven if he receives Christ at the last minute, and a little old lady doesn't, if she'd been good her whole life.

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I said, you know, oh, yeah. And I said, well, the Bible says, well, that's what your book says. I'm like, oh, jeez, you know, it's like that.

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And so I just had to put him on hold and answer biblically. So, okay, why do you say that their worldview carries no order?

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Because with atheism, you can't account for any universal transcendentals. You can't account for the laws of logic.

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You can't account for ethics. You can't account for our own existence. These are three very important areas, rationality, our existence, and morality.

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And the worldview just doesn't work. Now, I've been doing a lot of research today and lately on atheistic views of propositions.

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And I've been approached recently and told that TAG, it doesn't work, my view of TAG, because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, propositions.

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I'm researching propositions, and they don't even know they're talking about with propositions. People are always arguing about what propositions are.

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And so this gets more detailed. And they're always trying to find some way, somehow to take the place of God and excuse themselves in the sense of they can make moral choices.

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They have the authority. They're the ones who can tell us how we got here, or they bow to the

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God of science. What I mean by that is science has become more and more,

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I think about it with atheists, it's become a pseudo -deity, a hemisemidemigod, to make a musical thing.

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But they say, well, science is the way to truth in life.

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It is the way to truth, and it is the discoverer of truth. And you can have life if you follow science, you'll have a better life, better ethics, better everything.

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And so they look to science, which is a man -made creation, as the cure of all things. And even that is a philosophically -based system.

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Science is, which presupposes the laws of logic and is basically empirical in that you have to use empirical systems.

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And induction is a problem, and induction is based on empiricism. And they don't think very deeply about the philosophical and logical issues behind truth and knowledge and things like that.

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And so when we get into the deeper areas of discussion with atheists on these various issues, they just don't know what they're doing.

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And they can't answer the difficult question, just like latent flowers cannot answer the difficult questions about human free will and providence and sovereign grace and things like that.

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You can't answer them, and neither can they in their respective areas of error.

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So it's just stuff like that. Someone in the YouTube chat is saying, atheism's god is science.

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Now, I disagree with that. I wonder if you do too, Matt. Well, in one sense, yes, it is. Because I was just saying that science is something that they look to for truth.

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Science will provide the answer. Our hopes are in science and its ability to give us truth, et cetera.

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And so in that sense, yeah, it's definitely a form of a god. It's an idol, you could say to them.

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They don't even realize it, but it is. Well, OK, so I guess, Matt, so it's not that it's not science.

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It's the philosophy of science that they hold up as an idol. Yeah, the whole thing of science, you know, looking and observing the process of science and the broad scope of what it is.

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Science will provide the answers. Science gives us medicine. Science gives us rockets. Science gives us cell phones.

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Science, science, science. And if we don't have an answer now, in 100 years, science will provide the answer for us.

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So they replace God with science and then look to science to be the way the truth of life for them.

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That's what they do. It's not a god of the gaps. It's a science of the gaps. Oh, yeah. I've said that many times. Science of the gaps.

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, but I mean, there's a difference between science when we follow through in the scientific method and come to conclusions that way and a philosophy of science where statements like science answers all things, that everything can be determined by science.

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That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just speaking generically, because even atheists would admit when you really get down to the nitty gritty, you're not going to say you can answer every single detail.

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But I'm saying that generically, they look at science as the end all of everything that they want to find and look for.

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So that's what's going on. John is telling you not to mention Leighton Flowers or he'll do a two hour video to refute you.

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Yeah, it's going to take a two hour video. But if he wants to do a two hour video, then do the video on the topic of why is it one person chooses

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God, another one does not, if prevenient grace is given to them? And doesn't God know how much prevenient grace to give to somebody to bring them into the place of belief?

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And if it's up to their free will, then why is it that one person's free will enables to believe another one does not? If he says just because it's free will, he's not answering the question.

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And these are the questions and the issues that he cannot answer. But reformed theology can. At any rate, let's get back on topic.

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Yeah, we got to get Leighton in here to do a come in and do a debate and choose a topic and make him actually, you know, like stay right to this.

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Yeah. Yeah. All right. So atheism is probably one of the fastest growing religions, shall we say?

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Humanism is actually recognized officially as a religion. What really gets me is the the

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ACLU and the center, whatever it is that Dan Barker's in Center for Freedom of Religion Foundation.

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That's right. They they want they want to get rid of all kinds of religious ideology from anything inside of the government.

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Yet they are inadvertently promoting humanism, which itself is a religion. So I think their hypocrisy is profound, that they should be working against humanism and Christianity if they're going to be consistent.

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And humanism is most definitely a religion. And it's been stated as being so by the Supreme Court in the

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United States. That's right. There was I think it was a 2005 ruling or 2009 ruling where they they ruled that the case was was with a guy who was in prison.

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He had been basically the people who could get time out for religious.

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Religious services, things like that. He wanted to have some time to be able to sit in a library and read, and he argued that he wanted to study religion, his religion, which was atheism.

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And so that was his argument that he should be allowed to to be given time.

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And so the whole issue came down to whether atheism and humanism is a religion and they had ruled that it was.

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And so and they had the reasons for ruling that. And those reasons fit, you know, you know,

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I could I could pull up. Hold on. But the point is that humanism is a man centered ideology and atheists are very man centered.

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And so it's a problem. It's a problem. Well, let me just I'm going to quote from my own book, but what we end up seeing is the definition of religion has changed recently with the definition that has has been the definition for a very long time.

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They've they've had to change religion to require it to be only about God. But when we look at the definition here, and this is page two of my book,

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What Do They Believe? I'm just trying to find where the good spot is to start.

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But what you end up having here is. That religion deals with more than just a belief in God.

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So here, but here, quote, it is today commonly used to refer to those beliefs, behaviors and social institutions that have something to do with the speculation on any and all of the following.

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The origin, end and significance of the universe, what happens after death, the existence and wishes of powerful non -human beings such as spirits, ancestors, angels, demons and gods, and the manner in which all these shape human behavior, unquote.

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And so they ignore that first one, the you know, the origin, end and significance of the universe.

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That includes much of what humanism is doing, is talking about how the universe affects things.

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And they want to cut that out, say, you know, it's just about God, just about a belief in God. Well, then, you know, they're being hypocritical.

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They're redefining things in order to win. And that's a problem. And so they shouldn't be doing that because it's unethical.

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What gives them the right to do that in the first place? Second, define God. And if they're going to say that excludes

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God, then it's a defined God because you have Hinduism, or excuse me, Buddhism, which is basically an atheistic religion.

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And you can have all kinds of religious systems where, just as you say, they answer those questions because that's what religions do.

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And it's a religion of science in that science is the thing. And we could go through and list the similarities between it and religious beliefs and systems.

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There is no difference in a lot of areas. In fact, when I went to an atheist convention, I think it was in Minnesota, and I wrote an article about it.

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It might be worth going to really fast. I haven't thought about this for a long time. Let's see. Atheism, religion on karma, and a religion of atheism.

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To strengthen your point of them redefining to win, look at how they've changed the definition of atheism over the years.

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Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's gone from to know God doesn't exist now to the, I lack a belief.

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Because if they say they know God, they know it's impossible to be able to defend the claim that God does not exist.

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So what they had to do is change the definition so that they could try to win in these debates. Right. It shows how lacking their view is.

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Right. And that's exactly what the problem is. They redefine terms to their advantage, and then they say, here's how it really is.

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And, you know, I can do that. I could define atheism as anyone who is antagonistic to Christianity.

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Okay. And that's what atheism is. And I could define that. Well, what makes it right definition? Well, in our society, it's become an issue of vote.

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So on the 33rd Annual Atheist Convention in Seattle, Washington, April of 2007,

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I went there. And I've been to a few of them. And I was taking notes.

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I was listening. And they actually have a creed. This is what

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I gathered from their meetings, sitting in their meetings. A creed. No God or anti -God, promo -sexual and anti -Christianity.

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A crisis created a problem and offered a solution. The problem was religious oppression in society with atheistic ideals as a solution.

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They have assemblies. They're gathered in groups with meeting times. They have a pulpit, the lectern from which speeches were made.

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Their ideas were promoted and their reasons for their belief system were validated. They're evangelistic. The atheists sought converts to their causes.

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They frequently spoke out about getting the idea of atheism into society and to move people away from atheism.

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Celebrated converts. They rejoiced. I watched this. People were converted out of religion into atheism.

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There was applause. There was, you know, cheers, back slapping. They're zealous for their cause. They were exclusive.

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Only they have the truth. The attitude was, we're the atheists. We're the smart ones. Y 'all, you are religious backwards people.

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There was an us against them mentality. There was a profound description of the division between atheism and theism, with atheists being the ones who were defending themselves against the intrusive theists, which

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I find ludicrous. I find the idiocy of that statement.

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I remember that. I was like, you guys are insane. It's you guys attacking us. Anyway, they were concerned about their public image.

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There was a profound lack of critical thinking. I noticed that. Misrepresentation of opposing views.

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They had a voting bloc. They wanted to have atheists vote a certain way as a bloc. There was infighting, even.

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That's normal for any group. And money. They didn't have tithing, but there were plenty of things for sale.

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And let's not forget to mention how they sought donations to help cover the costs of promoting atheism, etc.,

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etc. So let me just read each one what they were. Creed. Crisis. They had assemblies.

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A pulpit. They were evangelistic. Celebration over converts. Zealous for their cause. Exclusive. Mystic.

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It's us against them mentality. Concerned about public image. Lack of critical thinking. Misrepresentation of opposing views.

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They wanted to be a voting bloc. There was infighting, and they were seeking money. And yet they say that they're not a religion.

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They don't have any characteristics like that of religion, and religion's bad. And yet they're guilty of the very same thing that they accuse others of doing.

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And plus, they impose their values on society, which is to say, Christians don't have the right to do, but then they do by going into courts and saying, remove this, remove that, remove this.

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You can't teach that. You can't have that. The lion sacks of crap. L sucks.

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And the hypocrisy is profound within them. As it wasn't saying in Star Wars, the force is strong with you.

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We should have the hypocrisy is strong with you. Well, I mean, now it's even, you know, how dare the vice president's wife.

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Yeah. At a Christian school, teaching Christian values that that's not allowed.

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A lot of it's just atheists on that one, but the left. Yeah. So who is it that's actually forcing their beliefs on who?

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It's not that the Christians are not forcing where we want to enforce the laws that have been the law of this land since its founding.

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Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're just not looking at the law. It's just, they want, they want, they want country made effort in their image.

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They want morality in their image. And we stand in play. They're going to get rid of us one by one. I mean,

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I'm not saying that they're going to put us in concentration camps, but why is that I keep thinking about? Why do

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I keep thinking about these camps? Which I happen to know do exist. Camps do exist in America.

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Felony camps. It's not talked about. Do you actually go to the web and look it up? And it's pretty scary, but they're fully funded with coffins and lots of stuff, just like internment camps and they're modern.

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But what's going to happen when the antichrist arrives? Are you going to say all Christians are to be gotten rid of? And I'll tell you, if you're a prominent

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Christian, you could be one of the first ones that they're going to come to get. And they won't do it after they've started their attack.

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They're going to come in a night or two before. Hey, are you so -and -so? Yeah, what's up? And then boom, they're going to isolate you and then confiscate property and things like that.

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This is what I'm worried about, because if you've, I don't know if you've been aware of the leftist, moronic, idiot, leftist politicians.

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One's a Muslim who, you know, it's just is talking smack about Israel now and wants equal stuff for Iran and stuff.

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You know, she wants to promote Islam. And we've got AOC on there or whatever her name is.

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You know, the idiocy that she's promoting, what, the planet's going to be dead in 12 years.

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I love when she speaks because you can't display the idiocy better than when she, when she opens her mouth.

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It's like, I can't believe she got elected. That's what it really tells you how bad it is in the world. You've got that right.

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And what about this new what now New York, you know, abortion is up to the birth time. We've got this one socialist, a moron woman,

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I forgot her name, and she wants health care. It's a right for everybody and get rid of the private organizations, make it all government controlled.

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This is socialism. This is socialism. Anyway, we're not about politics, but it's the same mentality where those who think they know better than others want to be in power and control what others have and believe and do.

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What do you think is going to happen in society if and when these far leftists get in control?

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They're in control. You're not going to be allowed to have a job if you think homosexuality is not true because a homosexual community, what they're going to do is say, oh, you, you are condemning us.

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You're a bigot. You need to be boycotted. You can't have a store.

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You can't have a business. This is the kind of mentality. It's the same thing that happened in Nazi Germany, the socialist party of Nazi Germany.

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It's what they did. They gradually ostracized a group of people and then start boycotting their their businesses, eventually confiscating their property as they were denying them their rights.

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And then look what happened. And people say, well, it won't happen in America. Don't say that. They said it wouldn't happen in Germany.

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They said it wouldn't happen in Germany and it did. And that's the point. They thought they were too civilized for that to be able to happen.

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But here's the thing. What you end up seeing in Nazi Germany was what someone got into power, what

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Hitler got into power with was using a group of people as a scapegoat. He was going to lose power if he doesn't keep it going.

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We have politicians now that are getting into power. Barack Obama gained a lot of power by pushing the homosexual movement.

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And there's a lot of people that see that. The issue is they're making that into a political issue and they can't stop. That's why we've gone to extremes.

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And we're discussing atheism. The whole transgenderism and homosexuality proves that atheism is false.

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You can't intelligently. Why? Because once you deny the biology, once you say that if we're just chemical reactions from our biology and we're not, we don't have a spirit within us, then every male is going to always have sex with a female.

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You're not going to have homosexuality. You're not going to have someone that's a male and thinks they're a female. That's not going to happen because it works against the biology.

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So the fact that they say that someone could be a gender different than the one they're born shows that they are not just a bag of cells.

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They're not just a material only thing.

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They are both material and immaterial. And so that's the irony.

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They don't even realize that they've just given up their atheism when they argue for this. You know, we're in a major crisis, a moral crisis, and I think it's

27:52

First Kings and everyone did what was right in their own eyes. This is chaos and the fall of a country.

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And what's happening is we have a degradation of morality because we've gotten rid of Christianity. The coherent, adhering, coalescing value of Christianity now is basically kicked out.

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And so everybody's going to do what's right in their own eyes. And our country is going to fail. It's going to at this rate. That's what history teaches.

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I did a little bit of research here just now and Foundation for Economic Education. The contemporary criticism of the

28:24

Nazi program failed to serve a purpose. People were busy dealing with the mere accessories of the

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Nazi doctrine. They never entered into a full discussion of the essence of national socialist teachings.

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The reason is obvious. The fundamental tenets of the Nazi ideology do not differ from the general accepted social and economic ideologies.

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The difference concerns only the application. These are the dogmas of present -day unorthodox orthodoxy.

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And this is an article on Nazi socialism, okay? Capitalism is an unfair system of exploitation.

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It is, and number two, it is therefore the foremost duty of the popular government to substitute government control of business for the management of capitalists and entrepreneurs.

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In other words, get rid of private education or private ownership and have businesses take over everything.

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Price ceilings and minimum wage rates are to be established by the state and to be enforced.

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Easy money policy, credit expansion is a useful method of lightening the burdens imposed by capitalism on the masses and making a country more prosperous.

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That's what they said. And that's not what's happening. Debt is not good. And all those who deny the foregoing statements and assert that capitalism best serves the masses are ill -intentioned and narrow -minded apologists of the selfish class interests of the exploiters.

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This is the kind of stuff we're hearing on the news from people, leftists. There's a lot more here, but this is the mentality that was in the political and social area that was being raised by the

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Nazi Germany regime. And we're seeing the same kind of thing here in America. So, we're talking about atheism here, and atheism, and this is the problem.

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I like to say to atheists is that when Adam and Eve were in the garden, problems didn't start until they behaved like atheists.

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And what do I mean by that? Well, when they decided to make morality on their own decision, when they started to decide that they themselves know what truth is, that's what atheists do today.

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And when Adam and Eve were doing what they were doing in rebellion against God, they were behaving in an atheistic -principled way.

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And so, by so doing, that's when sin entered the world and problems and death entered. And death is the logical conclusion.

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And I believe this. I'm a pessimistic amillennialist. And what that means is

30:47

I believe things are going to get worse, and worse, and worse, and worse, so bad that we're going to kill ourselves. And God says in Genesis 2 .17,

30:54

the day that you eat of the fruit, you will die. And Romans 6 .23, the wages of sin is death. And Matthew 24 .24,

31:02

well, it says, if those days be not cut short, there would be no flesh left.

31:09

And let's see, I think that's what it is. Or no, false prophets and false Christ have gone out into the world to mislead. Where is that verse?

31:16

Dang it. I'm not going to find it because it's important. No flesh left. Maybe someone will find it for me.

31:24

But there's a verse, I think it's Matthew 24 .13. I'm not sure. Let's see if I'm right. But the idea here is that our independence from God brings death.

31:33

That's what happens. And when people start deciding for themselves what is true, then what we get is, no, it's not that one.

31:41

Man, I'm going to find that because that bugs me. What we're seeing is the atheistic mentality and the humanism, they're in bed with each other, atheism and humanism.

31:54

And being so wedded in an unholy union, what it does is this kind of a thing breeds contempt for the

32:04

Christians, breeds contempt for absolute morality that does not rest within the human psyche, the human social structure.

32:12

And this is a problem because in history, when this kind of thing happens, what happens is those who with the light are the ones who are to see are killed and oppressed.

32:23

And this is what's happening to us in America is what's going to continue to happen in America unless we Christians stand up.

32:30

Anyway. That's right. I mean, they're getting into power by oppressing

32:38

Christians. They can't stop because otherwise they lose their power. So how come the

32:44

Christians are standing up and fighting? That's what gets me. Mamby -pamby Christians.

32:49

Come on, get up and do something. There's a couple of reasons. I think a lot of what we call

32:55

Christian church in the last several decades has been focused on trying to build their numbers up rather than share the gospel.

33:04

Yeah, I wish they could. I should hire myself out. Just give me two weeks of preaching and I'll help purify the church.

33:13

Not that I'm the great whatever, but I'll just preach the word, the truth of the word with force, with authority, with confidence.

33:20

And let's see how many people leave because they don't like what the word of God really says. Matthew 24, 22. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved.

33:29

But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. I believe that atheism, humanism, evolution, which is atheistic, all these secular religious systems which rob, try to rob and usurp the authority, morality, position, and truth, nature of God himself.

33:52

They split themselves in just as God prophesied. The day that you eat of the fruit, knowledge of good and evil, you're going to die.

33:58

I believe, this is my opinion, that the world's going to get so bad that we're going to bring ourselves to death.

34:05

And Jesus is going to stop right before we're going to kill ourselves as a race, as a human race.

34:12

That's what I believe will happen. This is my opinion. I think to think about if you study

34:19

Nazi Germany, picture what Nazi Germany would be like with the technology we have today where you can't -

34:28

Well, I mean, think about it. Nowadays, you go through a red light or through a traffic light and it's checking your face.

34:35

It's checking your license plate. I mean, so many of them were able to hide and get out of the - so many

34:41

Jews were able to hide, get out of the country, things like that. You're not going to be able to do that with the technology now.

34:48

If you have something like that happen now, it'd be scary. You wouldn't be able to run and hide like so many were able to survive.

34:57

Yeah, I mean, you know, unless you live in the Northwest or someplace like that where there's forests, you might be able to go build a camp, you know, among a couple of trees and maybe they'll leave you alone, that kind of thing.

35:08

But we know from persecution of history, in the history of the Christians, that thousands and thousands and thousands upon thousands of Christians have been murdered by various secular states and religious oppression, particularly the

35:22

Roman Catholic Church, the apostate false church that it is has killed many Christians as well. And many

35:29

Jews as well. And Jews, that's right. That's right. I should always include that because it's true. They did.

35:37

So, you know, if we Christians don't stand up and fight back, and I mean fight back, and I don't mean carry a gun and go, you know, go fight.

35:46

I'm not talking about that. I mean, what the unbelievers do is they get up and they -

35:52

It's a matter of standing up for truth. Standing up. How do you do that? It's not, you know,

35:58

I mean, because I just want to clarify, because you're not saying that we have to, we have to use the world's methods and act like them to fight back and get even.

36:07

It's about standing up for truth and not being pushed over, which I think many

36:12

Christians are, you know, they just, they want to get along with the world and they think just like many

36:18

Jews did in Nazi Germany. I think that if they just get along, people will leave them alone, but they won't.

36:25

You know why the Jews were stupid? You know why they were stupid? Because they didn't believe what the

36:31

Bible said, because what they wanted to do was just turn the other cheek and then don't worry about it. They were actually misunderstanding what really the

36:38

New Testament was saying, but they would just leave us alone. We'll get along. But is that what happened with Egypt? No.

36:44

Is that what happened with the Assyrians? No. That would happen with the Canaanites? No. They got to understand, and we do the same thing.

36:51

I understand people don't want to, you know, risk losing, you know, a man's life so his family can't be provided for.

36:57

But you know what? During the Revolutionary War, there were, I forgot what writings, I should call up, what's his name,

37:03

Federer, and ask him for quotes. But some of these founding fathers of our country said there are greater things that you have to value than your own life.

37:14

And some of them were the principles of righteousness. It's willing to risk your life for the righteousness that God has given us and for the proclamation of that gospel and for the defense of private property, believe it or not, which is a biblical thing, and the right to do with your creation or what you have in your property as you desire and not have someone else tell you what you're supposed to be doing because that's dictatorialism.

37:39

We don't need that. We don't want that. They said it. They were very eloquent. They were great, which I was, but I'm not.

37:45

But we need some more people like George Washington and Franklin and John Adams, these great thinkers today.

37:53

But if they were there, if they were suddenly resurrected, so to speak, and walked the streets, they'd probably be jailed, called bigots, and all that.

38:04

In fact, I wonder what would happen if somebody actually, like William Federer, were actually to go around the street, because he has so much stuff memorized from the constitutional fathers, and just start quoting things from George Washington and Franklin and stuff and see what kind of reactions people would give.

38:22

They would call him, you're a bigot. You're a hater. You're this. They wouldn't know who he's quoting.

38:28

No, they wouldn't. He's impressive. All right. Well, we got our first guest that's in here.

38:36

Before, as I bring her in, this may lead in great for her question, but John Wilkinson in the council on Facebook posted a great picture from Soteriology 101.

38:51

That's the ministry that Layton Flowers works for. This is a picture of a whole bunch of books in a bookstore, and it says, this is what the person at Soteriology 101 said,

39:01

Matt, and you'll love this. It says, quote, feeling disheartened. I am at a local bookstore and just skimmed seven different Bible studies only to find that every one of them begins with a

39:14

Calvinistic premise regarding the doctrine of election and predestination, unquote. And I think

39:20

I agree with John Wilkinson when he said, that warms my heart. Wow. Yeah.

39:26

Well, you know what the difference is ultimately? Is man -centeredness, Arminianism, God -centeredness,

39:31

Calvinism. Yeah. That's what the ultimate center difference is.

39:37

If you're going to study the Bible, you're going to study about God, so it's going to be Calvinistic. If you're going to study about man, you're in the self -help section.

39:46

That's right. I'm not saying Arminians aren't Christians, but I view Arminianism as elementary school theology and reform theology as you can't get any better because it sticks with Scripture and God is the sovereign king and not man.

40:00

As I've had discussions with so many Arminians about the issue of free will and sovereignty, they cannot answer the difficult questions.

40:07

And then they have to reinterpret Scriptures and reword Scriptures like somebody we know who goes to Philippians 129, which says,

40:15

God grants that we believe the object of the thing that's granted is our belief. He goes, no, that's not it,

40:20

Matt. It's God grants you the opportunity to believe, and it's not there in the text.

40:26

That's what it really means. Golly, I want to say, stop it. Stop it.

40:32

I want to get a t -shirt that says, stop it. Stop it. Stop being stupid. Just walk around like that. Stop it.

40:39

Oh, we got to play that video again? Yeah, I know. Stop it. Hey, John Wilkinson, you need to go out to Soteriology 101 and you need to let that person know you should go there and type, hey, if you want to find the

40:53

Arminian Bible studies, go in the self -help section. Yeah, self -help section.

41:00

There you go. I would love to see the response to that. Hey, look at this, man.

41:06

Look what's happening in the chat over there. Matt Slick never represents Catholicism correctly. Of course

41:11

I never do, to you. But actually, I'm representing it correctly. It's a false apostate religious system that'll lead you to hell.

41:18

Now, that's an accurate representation of what Catholicism teaches. And then when I quote them, they don't even know

41:23

I'm quoting them sometimes. Then they say, yeah, it's wrong, man. At any rate, it's Catholic schmathlics.

41:30

We're probably going to get into that discussion a bit because I think, I believe his name was Joseph is back in.

41:37

But before we get to him, and I don't know if he's got any questions. I didn't see it in the chat. But Kat had a question for you.

41:42

So if you want to unmute yourself, Kat, and ask your question. Hey, guys. So this is along the lines with the doctrine of depravity.

41:50

If you can maybe, like, in real time, explain it a little bit more for understanding for everybody.

41:56

But at the same time, I know that you can look at somebody and say they are a good person in general.

42:01

That's a good person. That's a kind person. And then there's a difference, a huge difference between being able to say, that's a godly person.

42:08

That's a Christian. That's a man on fire, woman on fire, whatever. So with the doctrine of depravity in place, can you truly just call somebody a good person?

42:20

Or do they need to be godly as well in order to be called a good person? So if you want to explain a little bit for everyone and myself.

42:27

Thank you. If you want to know what depravity is, I would suggest at the bottom of the screen, you'll see in our room, there's several people in.

42:34

Far left is John Wilkinson. So there's a good example of it.

42:40

And if you want to see it exemplified in real life, just go hang out with him. And that'll work. Wow.

42:47

I gotta be honest. But total depravity is a teaching that sin has touched all of what a human being is, heart, soul, mind, body, etc.

42:58

So everything's affected by sin. It doesn't mean that we carry out the totality of sinfulness in every degree to the max.

43:06

It just means that it's all affected by sin. And furthermore, it means the effect of the total depravity according to the scripture is that those thus affected certainly have free will.

43:18

They have the ability to make choices consistent with their nature that are not coerced. But their nature is against God and hostile.

43:25

So therefore, they're going to choose sinful things. And so they will never of their own free will come to Christ.

43:31

And the Bible says there's lots of verses for that. As you guys know, I can go through that. And so I forgot what the rest of your question was.

43:39

It was a long question. So I only got the first part. What was the rest of it that you said? Can you truly call somebody good?

43:45

Even if they're not a godly person, Mother Teresa did some beautiful things in her life, had some beautiful works behind her.

43:52

Can you truly call her good, though, if you are also a believer in that doctrine of depravity?

43:59

It depends what you mean by good. There's good on a human level. There's good on a human level.

44:06

There's good on the divine level. And so no man does good, Romans 3, 10, 11, and 12. So one of the examples of this is, so I was literally back there on that couch praying for 20 minutes, just praying and praying and praying one day years ago.

44:21

I'll never forget it. And I was just puking out everything I could to God about my sin, my lust, my pride, my arrogance, stubbornness, whatever it was.

44:29

And I couldn't find anything else to say in my confession. I was as deep as I could.

44:35

I was scraping. There was nothing left. And then I was praying, and I thanked the Lord that He didn't make me like the

44:41

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. And of course, that's out of Luke 18, 9 through 14, or Luke 14, 9 through 18,

44:53

Luke 18, 9 through 14. And so the tax gatherer and the rich man, or a tax gatherer and the

45:00

Pharisee, and the Pharisee said that, thank you for not making me like that tax gatherer over there.

45:05

And the point is that even at my most humble, I was full of sin. We don't even know the depths of our sin within ourselves.

45:13

This is the effect of total depravity. So therefore, from that perspective,

45:18

I can do no good. I can do nothing good because everything I do is touched by sin.

45:24

And the Bible says, Isaiah 64, 6, our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God. So nobody can do any good.

45:30

Nobody. Period. Except Jesus, of course. Now, an atheist sees me drop my wallet and hands it back to me.

45:37

I'd say, hey man, thanks for being good. And what I'm saying is on the human level, that's a good thing. On the divine level, it's not.

45:44

And the ultimate issue is what is ultimately make something good. And the atheists don't have a good definition for that because they'll say such things as what is good is what helps survivability.

45:55

Or good is what makes most people happy. Or good is what causes the least amount of pain. And these all have problems.

46:02

So they can't define what good is. So they can't complain about what is good and bad. They don't have any standard by which they can assert or deny.

46:09

Only we Christians can do that. When the Bible says no one does good, it's speaking from the divine perspective. We're not humanists.

46:16

So nobody does anything good. But what we do as Christians is filtered through the blood of Christ.

46:23

And so it is seen, so to speak, as being good through the blood of Christ by God the

46:28

Father. And that's how we have to look at it. All right. But it would be all right to say something like, if I thought my daughter was kind, compassionate, a good person in general, it's okay to call her a good person.

46:42

Tell her she's a good person. And just let her know the differences between good and godly good.

46:49

Right. You know, hey, you're being so good today. Thank you, thank you. And ultimately, you introduce theological truth so they can understand true goodness.

46:58

You know, and that's fine. I mean, you know, they're four years old and they brought you something that they broke on the way in as they're trying to help you.

47:05

Oh, that's so good of you. You know, you know how it is. Yeah, oh, definitely. Oh, that toothpaste sandwich is good.

47:11

Yeah, I love that. That's, that's really good. And you pretend to eat it as you're, yeah, uh -huh. Here, doggie.

47:19

That's right. Yeah, we've had that happen when our girls were young. They brought us a meal once.

47:24

And let's just say that it was interesting. Mm -hmm, yeah, definitely.

47:30

We had a dog that we would, we were the opposite when my brother and I were kids. And we'd slip, like, the vegetables under the table.

47:37

And my mom, we couldn't figure out for the longest time why she, how she knew we did that. And then we realized he comes out of the table, out from under the table with broccoli on his back that we couldn't reach and get.

47:47

And we were, yeah, it was just, yeah. Yeah. We were not good then. You were not being good. And so nobody is good.

47:54

And it's a standard of God that we've got to, we've got to appeal to. Jesus, or God says in 1

48:00

Peter 1, 16, be holy for I am holy. He's the standard of goodness and holiness, not us. So when atheists, like on the radio today, an atheist called up and talked about, you know, someone, a little old lady being good her whole life.

48:12

Well, Bible says, you know, no one's really good. What does he mean by good? And he was obstreperous. We didn't get very far before the show ended.

48:19

Right. Yeah. Thank you very much for that. Sure. No problem.

48:25

Let me just jump in really quick. We've got the Catholics on the chat. They're saying, I always misrepresent

48:30

Catholicism. I have specifically, I'm calling them out right now, specifically saying, show an exact instance.

48:37

Give me one exact instance where I specifically misrepresent Catholic theology.

48:43

Okay, just, you know, if you can't do it, then stop bearing false witness. All right. So where were we?

48:48

Yeah. And maybe you should come on in and we could finish the debate that you guys had before.

48:55

The one where he didn't do too well. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

49:03

Before we bring, we'll see. I don't know if Joseph has something. I'll bring him in a moment before we do.

49:08

Why don't we take a word with our sponsor? If you want to be able to get your beauty sleep like Matt Slick.

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Now, Matt needs about 24 hours a day to get enough beauty sleep. And it's still true. It doesn't help.

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It's not working. But with my, my pillow is now reduced to 20 hours a day where I need it.

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Still needs more. Still needs more. Matt wished that there was 50 hours in a day so he can get enough beauty sleep.

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But with his, my pillow, he has, he can reduce those hours somewhat. And so actually my pillow now has a new thing,

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Matt. I don't know if you know, but they have a bed topper. I know. And I was asked about it. Someone wants to send me one.

49:50

I hope they do. I want to give it a shot because my back is killing me and maybe it'll help. Yeah.

49:55

I'm thinking of checking that out. But if you want to check out one of the best pillows, I actually think it is the best pillow that you can have because your sleep is important to you.

50:05

You need to be able to get a good night's sleep so that you can, you know, debate with atheists all day long.

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50:23

That's 1 -800 -944 -5396. Make sure to get your, my pillow and say you heard about it on Apologetics Live.

50:33

And so we'll bring Joseph in and Joseph, you can unmute yourself. I don't know if you have any questions tonight.

50:40

I was asking in the chat here and didn't see any. No, no, I don't usually.

50:47

It's been a bit of a confusing day so far. But I was listening to the early part of the discussion about the rise of, the rise of socialism in America as we're seeing it.

51:00

Now, I know there wasn't much mention of the, obviously, the Soviet Revolution, which killed 23 million

51:05

Christians. Then where, I mean, we could even, I mean, if not, if you don't want to count the

51:11

Orthodox, they killed off Lutherans too. And they killed off all sorts of people. But the point is, and there was, they didn't, they used that.

51:20

But what was interesting was one Russian elder who was well known, he actually said, what began in Russia will end in America.

51:27

And to that degree, he's kind of right. I mean, he died, you know, it's pretty depressing.

51:35

And the hard part is that, yeah, you do have to fight, but ultimately fighting means martyrdom. And that's, that's the only way out.

51:43

I mean, there's, it's, that's how it's, oh, there's, I mean, we have, one thing we have is the blessing and the foresight of history.

51:51

So we know, like, for example, the Soviets, even though they were, they were militant atheists, they were also militantly anti -homosexual.

52:00

So they didn't have to, you didn't have to deal with the problem of reproduction not occurring anymore, which is basically what we're faced with in that sense.

52:08

So we could end that way, which would probably mean apocalypse. We could end, there's a theoretical possibility because the

52:17

Roman Empire was also a completely amoral state, which included pederasty and homosexuality in it, when the

52:26

Christians first rose and we converted the state. So that went away.

52:31

But the point is, so that's one possibility. And the other possibility, I hate to say it, is we keep seeing more and more

52:37

Islam. And we know they're intolerant of the homosexuals, too. They throw them off buildings. So the reality is, if we are not, and maybe

52:46

I shouldn't say, if we're not manly enough, and I'm not just talking about men, but women, but if we're not, then we're either going to be all destroyed, the society will collapse, the

52:56

Antichrist takes over, that's one possibility. Islam could take over. We've already putting them in government, and it's, you know, we're seeing

53:02

Sharia law starting. So that's a theoretical possibility. So there's all sorts of awful ways this could go down.

53:10

And that's, you know, that's part of the difficulties. You need to maintain faith at that point. And so, you know,

53:16

I mean, the Soviet period was terrifying, but it's a great blueprint for what we're going to see now.

53:22

And we just have to add a little bit of the Roman Empire to it. You know, I was just doing a little bit of research while you're talking, listening to you, because I totally agree with what you said.

53:30

I just learned a new word. Democide. D -E -M -O -C -I -D -E. The intentional killing of an unarmed or disarmed person by government agents acting in their authoritative capacity and pursuant to government policy or high command.

53:48

So, according to Death by Government, 1994, 110 million people were killed by communist democide from 1987.

53:58

Another one says 170 million. Another one says 85 to 100 million. So, I mean, it is the communist socialistic regimes, because a lot of people don't know that socialism is one step closer to communism.

54:12

We have capitalism, which is private property. And this is a very oversimplification. You have capitalism, private property, where the state serves the person.

54:21

Then you have socialism, where, yeah, you have private property, but the state tells you what to do with it. And you kind of serve the state a little bit both.

54:30

Communism is no private property. The state owns it, and it owns you. It tells you what to do.

54:35

Now, those are exaggerations, but I want people to get the idea that socialism is one step closer to communism.

54:42

This is how it works. And you'll notice, and we're old enough to know this, what was Russia called? What was it?

54:48

USSR? Yeah, the United Soviet Socialist Republics. Yeah. It's not called that anymore.

54:54

But it was the United Socialist Soviet Republic. Well, this is one of the things that you've got to stress to the kids, because there's an eschatology to socialism and to communism.

55:04

And yes, an eschatology of death. But my point is this, that one of the reasons that socialism and communism managed to stay alive is because of this fantasy that one day we're all going to be imagined by John Lennon or something.

55:18

And the point is, but it never gets there, because as soon as you've trained people in evil and you've trained them to hate and kill those that they disagree with, you are training them to, once they get up to the point where they can say, oh, well, everyone needs to share now, they're going to be like, screw that.

55:34

We're in power now. That's why it never happens. Because you can't have, you can't, communism, like all atheist movements, assumes a fundamentally good society.

55:44

But if the society that you create is fundamentally evil, it can never become that society.

55:50

So it's quite an amazing thing. So for me, that's a very interesting talking point, which is,

55:56

I always point out, where has this happened? Because every time we supposedly point to some successful socialist regime, it's built on a bunch of dead bodies.

56:06

It's nothing but theft, and it's disgusting. Confiscation of money, confiscation of rights, confiscation of property.

56:14

You know what, you just reminded me, someone sent me an email, and it's rather long, I'm not going to go through all of it.

56:19

How does civil wars happen? It's when two or more sides disagree on who runs the country. The Mueller investigation is about removing

56:27

President Trump from office and overturning the results of an election. I'm skipping stuff.

56:34

What do the sure odds of the Democrats rejecting the next Republican president really mean?

56:40

It means they don't accept the results of any election that they don't win. It means they don't believe that transfer of power in this country is determined by elections.

56:48

That's a form of civil war. There's no shooting, at least not unless you count the attempt to kill a bunch of Republicans at a baseball game.

56:55

It's kind of a Snyder mark there. This isn't dissent. It's not disagreement. You can hate the other party.

57:01

You can think they're the worst thing that ever happened to this country, but then you work harder to win the next election.

57:08

When you consistently reject the results of elections that you don't win, what you want is a dictatorship, and that's exactly correct.

57:17

Our socialist morons in this country, the election occurred, and they want to overturn everything and then change the rules so that they can win.

57:29

That's not a democracy. It's not a republic. They want a dictatorship. I have to point out, you're giving them a little too much.

57:36

I mean, you're being a little charitable to a lot of them. To many of them, you've described them correctly, but many of them know exactly what we're talking about, and they want it, and it's a mask.

57:46

So in that sense, some of these demagogues, their goal is precisely what we're talking about.

57:54

They're just not stupid enough to say it, because if they do, then no one will vote for them. That's right.

58:00

This person goes on and says, if the Democrats are in the White House, then the president can do anything, and I mean anything.

58:05

He can have his own amnesty for illegal aliens. He can fine you for not having health insurance.

58:11

His power is unlimited. He's a dictator. But when Republicans get into the White House, suddenly the president can't do anything.

58:18

He isn't even allowed to undo the illegal alien amnesty that his predecessor illegally invented.

58:24

A Democrat in the White House has discretion to completely decide every aspect of immigration policy.

58:31

A Republican doesn't even have the discretion to reverse him. That's how the game is played. That's how our country is run.

58:37

It's sad but true. When a Democrat is in the White House, states aren't even allowed to enforce immigration law.

58:42

But when a Republican is in the House, states can create their own immigration laws. And that's how the Constitution is set up, for the states to be able to do that.

58:50

Anyway, under Obama, a state wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom without asking permission.

58:56

But under Trump, Jerry Brown can go around saying that California is an independent republic and sign treaties with other countries.

59:04

It goes on. This is a great little email. You know, there's some things that people may not even be aware of because it wasn't in the news long enough.

59:11

But, you know, under Obama, he actually killed an American citizen on foreign soil without due process.

59:20

Yeah. So here's a little thing that ended up happening. There was an American citizen who went over, became part of ISIS.

59:27

He was a fighter with ISIS. He was one of the most wanted. But Obama moved him up.

59:35

They had him in their sights and they moved him up the list from the most wanted to be in the top 10.

59:41

And then they used a drone strike and killed him. And then there was big news.

59:48

They got the, you know, one of the top ISIS guys, someone in the top 10 most wanted for ISIS.

59:55

And then all of a sudden it was discovered he was an American citizen and what was done was illegal. And all of a sudden all the news just dropped it.

01:00:01

No more talk about it. Here's an interesting thing. We had that whole investigation with George W. Bush to see who gave the name of Valerie Plume.

01:00:12

If you remember that incident, they wanted to know who it was that leaked the name to Robert Novak.

01:00:20

By the way, Valerie Plume was someone who they took off. She did work for the CIA. She was taken off cover because of the fact that she kept blowing her own cover.

01:00:30

She kept telling her boyfriends that she works for the CIA. So she blew her own cover, but when

01:00:37

Robert Novak was interviewed, he's the first person the special counsel interviews. They asked him, was your source

01:00:45

Chris Armitage? Yes, it was. That should have ended the investigation because they now know who gave the name.

01:00:52

But Chris Armitage is not someone that's in the Bush. He's against Bush. So what they do, they kept this whole investigation going for what a year and a half millions of dollars until they could find

01:01:03

Scooter Lemmy, who just happened to say something that he didn't remember.

01:01:08

And they could say, look, they tied it to the vice president and said, see, it's the Bush administration.

01:01:14

And then they were willing to close up. That's what they do. They just keep suing, suing, suing. Now, let's take a look at Obama. Barack Obama.

01:01:21

We have six people that are in Iran. They're captured. They say that they're contractors and they're put on trial for treason.

01:01:28

The Iranian government says that they're they're a traitor, that they're spies for America. They deny it.

01:01:34

And they say that they are that they're contractors. Now, the whole argument with Valerie Plume was that lives were at risk.

01:01:41

People were put at risk because her name was revealed. Well, she wasn't even on cover. What do we see with Barack Obama?

01:01:47

He does a public appeal to Iran to release our six CIA agents who blew whose cover and put them in danger.

01:01:58

It wasn't Bush because it had nothing to do. Bush didn't blow anyone's cover. But Barack Obama took men who were who were on trial for being spies and blew their cover to that nation.

01:02:11

Now, what was the end result? Well, Barack Obama gave them about 150 terrorists and said, just give us back our

01:02:16

CIA agents. That's because he's a he's a Muslim. Let me finish reading.

01:02:22

I want to get this off the last part of this email. And if you guys want you put your email in there, I'll send it to you.

01:02:28

He said, this is really good because it's all true. And you're right. Obama and Trump, they're light years apart.

01:02:36

And Obama should be tried for some of the things that he did. Hillary should already be in jail, but they're not. Now we're seeing what the pros can do when amateurs try to walk in on them.

01:02:46

They spy on them. This is what's happening in our government. They spy on them. They investigate them and they send them to jail.

01:02:52

They use the tools of power to bring them down. That's not a free country. It's not a free country when FBI agents who support

01:02:58

Hillary take out an insurance policy against Trump winning the election. It's not a free country when Obama's officials engage in massive unmasking of the opposition, just like you said.

01:03:09

It's not a free country when the media responds to the other guy winning by trying to ban the conservative media that supported him from social media.

01:03:16

It's not a free country when all of the above collude together to overturn an election because the guy who wasn't supposed to win did have no doubt we're in a civil war between conservative voluntary government and leftist

01:03:29

Democrat professional government. Yeah. I mean, look, it was very interesting to give, uh, to give you look at, if you remember way back when with Barack Obama, there was all the talk of Egypt every day.

01:03:48

We were talking about Egypt because what happened? Barack Obama worked with, uh, to, to basically have the

01:03:54

Muslim brotherhood topple the Egyptian government. And then the military came in and toppled the

01:04:00

Muslim brotherhood government. And Barack Obama was saying that, you know, somehow the military is wrong for doing their coup when he supported the previous coup and somehow that's wrong.

01:04:11

And there was talk every single day. Egypt was in the news until one moment.

01:04:17

The, the head of the prime minister of Egypt put out a statement in English so that the

01:04:23

American press would pick it up. And 15 minutes after that statement, there was not a single mention of Egypt in the news.

01:04:29

Again, what was the statement that was made? The Egyptian prime minister announced that they're not going to be bullied by the

01:04:35

United States when the half brother of the president of the United States was a leader in the

01:04:43

Muslim brotherhood. In other words, they revealed that the, the terrorist group, the Muslim brotherhood that they were toppled.

01:04:50

It was Barack Obama's half brother who, because of his being able to get into the white house, he rose very prominently in the

01:04:58

Muslim brotherhood. That's the reality. No, no news about that. Nope. Can't, can't talk about that.

01:05:04

Yeah. But in the, in the reverse, you know, with Trump, some alleged connection with Russia, his son allegedly talked to somebody or whatever.

01:05:11

And all of a sudden it's a, they're going to be kicked out of office for this. I mean, the hypocrisy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy based on a forged document, a forged dossier.

01:05:22

That's the funny thing. Yeah. Well, you know, we heal in a postmodern society.

01:05:27

Truth is not what anybody's after. Truth is a relativistic commodity to be used in order to uplift an agenda.

01:05:37

And the agenda is control and manipulation and the destruction of those who hold to absolute truth.

01:05:43

And so therefore we Christians are on the list of targets. I guess to stay with the theme, right, of atheism, this is where atheism leads you to.

01:05:53

Because, because when you try to, when you try to deny God, we're created by God with a sense of community, with a sense of worship.

01:06:06

And when we remove the object of worship, we're going to start worshiping self. And this is the result of it that they, they, everyone is starting to think, try to argue that every, the whole world should revolve around them.

01:06:21

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not a Democrat or Republican, but, and I disagree with what's his name up there, but a

01:06:30

Catholic traditionalist, he said something that's true. Democrats are evil.

01:06:36

Not every Democrat is, but I understand what he means. It's probably the far left Democrats. And sadly, many Republicans are weak and spineless.

01:06:42

Republicans don't fight back. And basically there's truth in that. We've got to, you know, you got to fight back. I remember

01:06:47

I heard once that all, and throughout history, all nations that fall, fall gradually through moral degradation or it's all, all democratically based kind of systems do.

01:06:59

I forgot what the exact quote was. The only way to get them back is by revolution. It's the only way.

01:07:05

And there has to be a very quick, very sudden taking out of the bad people and starting, so to speak, rebooting.

01:07:13

And that's how it has to be. So I've actually known people for years.

01:07:18

I mean, I know them personally, but well, I can say yes or no to that, who are waiting for a revolution to occur.

01:07:26

They want to, they want to, they want to pick up arms in March. And, um, I'm like, well, okay. But, uh,

01:07:32

I know of people, uh, where that's, I don't believe as Christians that we would, we should be doing that though.

01:07:39

Yeah. I know people who are, are that upset about what's happening, that they want to do that.

01:07:46

I think the reason that a guy like Donald Trump could get elected is because people are so sick.

01:07:54

There's obviously a large part of America that's so sick and tired of hearing Republicans that just, as you would say,

01:08:02

Matt, the man be Pamby Republicans, right? They're they're just, they want to get along and not actually take a stand.

01:08:09

And that's why a guy lacking morality like Donald Trump could get elected because they just, they want someone to act like a leader and stand on his principles.

01:08:20

That's because the Democrats have that they, the leftists have no problem with it. So I like what

01:08:25

Kat is saying slick for president 2020, that could be, you could, you could, okay. We should do that.

01:08:31

We should do a picture picture. Matt slick as president, president slick.

01:08:40

Oh man. I have so much bad history that the left media would be all over me like a monkey on a cupcake.

01:08:47

And there'll be so much stuff that is true that I'd be in trouble up. The homosexual agenda would hate me.

01:08:53

The women's people would liberals would hate me because no women pastors and elders. Oh man.

01:08:59

Could you imagine the, the crap storm I would be in? Do it, do it.

01:09:04

I mean, seriously, at least bring attention to Christianity and to God more. I wish

01:09:10

I wish I could wish God called me to do something like that. It'd be great. I mean, I'd love to be president of the

01:09:15

United States and I'll tell you, I mean, it's not going to happen whenever it is blabbing, but I'll tell you if it ever is the case, which not going to happen in a science fiction, parallel universe.

01:09:25

I would say I would do my best to clean frigging house. Just like Trump is trying to do.

01:09:31

Trump's trying to clean house. Matt. All right. Let's have some fun. It's president slick.

01:09:38

It's your first day. Charlie's already saying impeach slick. I haven't even gotten in the office.

01:09:49

There's plenty to impeach me over. And, and Charlie's known you for a very long time. So we, you know, he's told me about 39, 40 years.

01:09:58

Yeah. It's Charlie's fault that Matt is in apologetics. Just saying. So your first day in office, president slick, what do you do?

01:10:08

What's your day? Probably pray all day. I'd probably just say, leave me alone.

01:10:14

I'm going to be praying to my Lord and asking him for wisdom. And I would ask for others to come in and join me in prayer.

01:10:21

And that's what I would probably do the first day. And they say they don't like it. That's not your problem. I'm going to pray.

01:10:27

That's what I would do. Ask God for wisdom. And then I would surround myself with brilliant people.

01:10:34

With smart people. And that's what you do here with me. I said with smart people.

01:10:44

And I think Trump, and well, it's more humble than me. But, but I think

01:10:50

Trump makes mistakes when he does his Twitter thing. That's a mistake. He needs to be presidential in some areas and it makes it good to be left too much to hate.

01:10:58

And I would have somebody who knows how to word things properly. But another thing I think, I think Trump would do this, which

01:11:03

I would do. That would have a special website. It was very, very guarded. Very, very public.

01:11:10

But, you know, so guarded in that hackers can't get in that kind of thing. And I have it constantly looked at. If anything happens, it goes to another

01:11:17

DNS and all this stuff. But where things are documented. What's happening.

01:11:23

Who says what in the government. What policies are coming out. I would have it put up so anybody could go and look at it and see this is what's happening.

01:11:31

That's what's happening. This is what's going on. I think that's a critically, a critical thing that Trump is missing.

01:11:38

I think the web, the internet is a way to do it and put just documents, links.

01:11:44

You have people work on it all the time. I think that's what needs to be done. See, I have a different, I have a different view with his stupid

01:11:51

Twitter things. I actually think he does it on purpose. I think that he does it because there's, there's no way the media would talk about the things that he's tweeting about unless it was the tweet.

01:12:04

I came up, I came upon this when he did that thing about, he called that woman horse face.

01:12:10

And, and it's like, okay, you slept with her. Obviously you didn't think she was horse face then. But the reality is, is no one would have been talking about the fact that she, she did something.

01:12:21

She broke the wall. It was the, the judgment went against her. They would have been silent about it in the media, except he called her horse face.

01:12:28

And now it's, why did he call her horse face? What was the tweet? And the, because of something like that, that got the attention to it.

01:12:36

I, I, not that I approve of what he's doing, but I think it's effective for what he's trying to do.

01:12:42

I think he does it on purpose. Sorry, I just read the topic of apologetics.

01:12:48

First executive order Matt does is put your hand in front of your face. You'd say everyone from CNN, put your hand.

01:12:59

What's the match like salute? There you go. Oh my goodness. I love it. That would be a, wouldn't that be a good, oh man, a good t -shirt, just a smiley face with a hand in front of it like this, you know, that's like for president.

01:13:14

What makes no sense. So yeah. Hey, I couldn't do any worse than, uh, and say things any worse than AOC.

01:13:23

Yeah, that's true. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to add, uh, Cody here. I don't know if he has any questions.

01:13:29

He hasn't responded in the, in the chat at all, but, and folks, folks who are watching live, you're more than welcome to come in, ask any of your apologetic questions.

01:13:38

I know that there's a Catholic out there that he kind of went quiet. I guess Matt, since you challenged him, but, um,

01:13:45

I don't know, but Cody, if you want to, you can unmute yourself if you want and ask any questions you have.

01:13:51

And for while he's doing that, anyone else that wants to come in, you're more than welcome to come on in, ask any questions that this is a live show that to answer your questions.

01:14:00

It doesn't have to be combative. It doesn't have to be just people who are looking to challenge Matt. But if you maybe were asked a question, you were trying to defend the faith and you were asked something you didn't have an answer to.

01:14:12

This is what it is. This is an opportunity for you to ask those questions a little bit different than his regular radio show

01:14:18

Monday through Friday. Um, Matt's like live because here he has a longer time to give answers.

01:14:24

So I see that Cody unmuted himself. So go ahead, Cody. Yeah. Kind of on the same topic. Well, how's it going guys?

01:14:32

Um, Matt, do you remember who Cody is,

01:14:37

Matt? No, it doesn't. Well, maybe, um, we go through this every time.

01:14:45

What do you think? He's going to remember you, Cody, right? Oh, wait, Cody. Hey, Cody. Yeah. Cody. Hey, man.

01:14:51

Hey, what's up, dude? So he's a guy made the smallest thing I had in my office, my other office thing, their video room.

01:14:58

Yeah. I just had a question kind of on this cultural topic. I've been thinking about it. What in regards to God's providence, um, for Christians that have a loved one who is incapacitated, um, brain dead, um, some type of internal damage in which they're in a coma or the doctors are telling them they'll never pull out.

01:15:25

And they're suggesting that we terminate life support. Um, what, what do you think the

01:15:32

Christian's response should be to that? Well, I've had a similar situation in my life occur similar, but not identical.

01:15:42

In that, um, we had a, a son, Jacob, who we found out three months before delivery had holoprosencephaly and long story short, the doctor said he will not be able to survive on his own outside of the womb.

01:15:58

Then we had the opportunity to discuss and contemplate taking measures to keep him alive by introducing, um, machinery because his lungs were underdeveloped.

01:16:11

His hands weren't right. His feet weren't right. His skull was not right. But some, we call them hollows for short, have actually survived and, um, have lived, uh, but they're basically bedridden and that's about it.

01:16:27

So, you know, in a sense it's pull the plug or not pull the plug in the sense of, do we try and keep them alive with machinery or not?

01:16:36

And so my wife and I had to actually face that decision. And I can only tell you what we decided and, um, whether right or wrong, people can debate, but this is something we really had to decide.

01:16:49

We really did do this. And so we decided that we would not use extraordinary means to keep

01:16:56

Jacob alive in that, um, his quality of life would be horrible and that the defect was deadly.

01:17:06

And we decided if he were to live on his own outside the womb, we do everything we could to continue in that.

01:17:12

But if it was so bad that all they would do is have machines in them, then what is that? And we decided to let him go home, be with the

01:17:19

Lord and he died in our arms. So you have decisions like this.

01:17:25

It's never, it's never a, uh, here's one thing you got to do. Uh, there are variables, there's emotions, there's, uh, difficulties, there's, uh, ethical issues, there's godly issues, there's personal wants, desires, needs, abilities.

01:17:44

There's the issue of what is the life of that person? All of this is like a big hairball.

01:17:49

You pull on one of these threads and everything else is affected and it's difficult to, to deal with.

01:17:55

So having said all of that, if there's someone in a deathbed and I mean, they're being kept alive by my machines and there's no brain activity and that's it.

01:18:06

And basically two or three doctors all say the exact same thing and they say we can keep the body alive, but that's it.

01:18:14

Personally, I would say, okay, well, let's, let's pray and ask God if it's okay to pull the plug. And if it's, if it's not to communicate to us because everyone dies sometime and not that we want to hasten it or excuse, you know, that, but let it go.

01:18:30

And that's just my, my belief. It's time to say, okay, we're done and, um, move on.

01:18:36

You know, like I would probably have a will to some sort of, you know, a will stated that if I'm in that situation, just, just, just let me go.

01:18:44

You don't go home, be with the Lord. Um, and then there's those kinds of situations. A close family member that went through that too, and they were believers and she, she did.

01:18:55

And I know that was the hardest thing. It was her husband. He had a stroke, he had a stroke and they, I mean, they're in the fifties.

01:19:01

They're not, they're not ancient, you know, like you. And so, um, no,

01:19:06

I'm just kidding, but, uh, but you know, and it just kind of got me thinking about it.

01:19:13

You know, I, I'd seen an article that, that actually Tyler Baylor posted, um, regarding a young man that was probably 10 years old,

01:19:21

I think. And it came down with some disease and I don't remember the name of it, but, uh, the doctors told the parents that, um, he's going to be in a vegetative state the rest of his life.

01:19:31

So they told him, they told him you need to take him home and just, uh, basically let him starve to death.

01:19:40

Um, and, and, and they, or, you know, there's nothing more we can do for him, just, you know, whatever.

01:19:47

And the kid ended up, um, after about three years, he was, cause he was out of it.

01:19:56

I mean, completely gone, nobody home after about three years, he came to, but he couldn't communicate.

01:20:04

He didn't look any different to the parents. Couldn't do anything, couldn't function, but he was there cognitively. And so he remembers all these things, including his mom saying one day, you know, to him, you know, he wished you would just die.

01:20:16

She was just frustrated and, you know, and he had to deal with that internally. And after 11 years, he completely came out of it, recovered.

01:20:25

Yeah. He just, everything started working. I mean, cause he was completely paralyzed. They would take him, they'd bathe them and stuff and then take him to this place for, you know, eight hours a day.

01:20:35

And he'd sit, they'd make him sit and watch Barney. And they just, you know, watch him or whatever and come get him.

01:20:41

And so I had to feed him to get worse. Give me some sci -fi stimulate the brain.

01:20:47

Right. But, um, but he came to, and it just kind of got me thinking about that because I mean, our, our culture is going to be pushing that, you know, ease the suffering, got to, got to take them out.

01:20:58

Um, you know, that's going to be more pervasive and played upon people's emotions.

01:21:04

And I just, you know, yep. Oh yeah. There's all kinds of situations like that where people are, are, you don't even know and they're cognizant.

01:21:12

I remember reading about a story where this woman, I don't know what the situation was that why she was in the condition she was, but, uh, she could live and breathe on her own and no movement, uh, she had brain activity, but just nothing.

01:21:28

And so she had to be cleaned and, you know, catheterized and fed intravenously, all this kind of stuff.

01:21:34

And it's been on for years and years and a nurse, a male nurse was taking care of her and he was a really good guy.

01:21:42

He just started talking out loud to her. That's what he would do. And he just talked out loud to her while taking care of her and he was a good guy.

01:21:48

And, and, uh, he looked into her eyes and she blinked and, uh, he's like, and so he's talking and, and, uh, she blinked again.

01:21:57

And he got the idea. He goes, if you can hear me blink twice. And she dink, dink, and he goes, blink three times.

01:22:06

And you can hear me, you know, dink, dink, dink. They went and got doctors the whole bit. She had been perfectly conscious the whole time for years and nobody knew it.

01:22:17

So, you know, when you pull the plug, you really, you know, it is really a very serious thing and you want to make sure in our situation,

01:22:26

I would say, and this is going to sound stupid in some ways, it was easier than a lot of other people's situations.

01:22:31

It wasn't easy, but what do you do? What do you do? And so I think that the natural way, let it go naturally and see to a point, um, you know, to a point naturally, because, you know, sometimes they need to be kept like me.

01:22:47

I was in a very, very serious car accident in 1976 and, uh, could have died from it.

01:22:53

It was in, I woke up in ICU. It was the hospital five days, you know, uh, they just let me alone.

01:22:59

Uh, I don't know if I'd have made it or not, but, um, you know, what do you do? It's just not an easy situation, not an easy question to answer.

01:23:09

It's just not. It's not. What are you going to do? That's why I will never point fingers at somebody in a, in a gray area like that.

01:23:18

I'll just say, yeah, it's tough. You know, what are you going to do? I make a decision and you got to live with it.

01:23:25

So, yeah, yeah, it's tough, but I've had to live it to some degree.

01:23:33

Sorry. You had to go through that. Yeah. But you know, what's interesting though? Um, about that is, uh, we had a funeral and people showed up and I had a professor from seminary, uh, drive a hundred miles, give the eulogy and all that kind of stuff.

01:23:52

And, um, my wife, you know, she bore this baby, gave birth knowing the baby was going to die.

01:23:59

Knowing Jacob would die. I even included a little bit about Jacob in my novel, The Influence.

01:24:06

But, uh, she, you know, she's a great woman and, uh, she, you know, we endured this.

01:24:12

Okay. So after a few months, she decided to attend a woman's group of a group of women who had lost children and that they were a support group.

01:24:26

That's what it was. A support group for mothers who'd lost children, something like that. So she went to go get some support, uh, because, you know, this is hard and she could meet women who'd been through it for many more years in the past, you know, and it healed through it and she was going to get support and she comes home and she said, those ladies are in trouble.

01:24:47

They don't have Jesus. There are women who've been there for years, lost a child years ago, and they can't get over it.

01:24:53

Not that you just get over it. I'm not being callous, you know, it's not that, but they didn't have the

01:24:59

Lord. And so they were still in this complete loss and unhealing area.

01:25:04

She ended up ministering to a whole bunch of people. And, uh, people deal with it differently.

01:25:12

Anyway, it's just bringing back stuff, memories, but it's tough. It is. Yeah. Thanks. Sure.

01:25:23

Something I've been chewing on. Well, thanks for bringing that to a depressing note,

01:25:32

Cody. Oh, that's true. Aren't you doing a conference on suffering?

01:25:41

Well, I suffer every time I have to hang out with Matt. That's true. You could do a whole section. Aren't you doing a conference?

01:25:47

Aren't you? Aren't you doing a conference on suffering, Andrew? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to be speaking, actually.

01:25:55

It's Frank Mulls from Striving Fraternity. I'll be one of the keynotes, not me. So. All right.

01:26:02

So you have anything else, Cody? No, I'm good. All right.

01:26:08

Uh, so folks. Not even one. By what standard? The Bible.

01:26:15

Romans 3, 10, 11, 12. Next. Yes, we get it. We get it. Folks, if you want to come in, ask any questions.

01:26:21

I know there's, you know, a bunch of people watching, a bunch of people commenting on YouTube, but come on in and ask your questions.

01:26:29

So Matt, I know I live in Jersey, but I got a new toy this week. Uh -huh.

01:26:36

I hear it. I know what that sound is. You know what that sound is? It only takes about a month and a half to be able to get a

01:26:43

Glock in New Jersey. It's nice. How long would it take you to pick up a Glock in Idaho?

01:26:50

The whole process. Probably you go up. Let's see. As soon as you say, I want that from buying it to walking out the door.

01:26:57

It's probably 20 minutes. Half hour tops. You know, it only took me about a month and a half of paperwork.

01:27:07

And I can't buy another one for 30 days. I have to wait 30 days before I can get, I got the

01:27:13

Glock 19 and I'm going to pick up a 17. That's what I carry. It's a 19. But, and this is a 17.

01:27:20

I got to pick up the 19. Okay. Another nice thing about Idaho is you go through the process.

01:27:26

You can buy ammo and your gun at the same time. They, they walk, you say,

01:27:33

I want to get this and that and you get the ammo. They go, okay. They walk you over to a little side area. That's what happened with me. And then you fill out your name and stuff like that.

01:27:40

And then they do a background check on you right away. That's what they did with me. And they go, okay, fine. Okay. Good. All right.

01:27:46

Great. And then they say, here you go. How much, you know, you pay. And then they, they charge you and you give them the card and walk out.

01:27:52

Then they literally walk you out the front door. And so they walk you out.

01:27:58

Somebody just says, okay, we'll escort you out. And it's just procedure. That's where I went. They walk out the front door. They go, see ya.

01:28:04

And you got your gun in your hand or bag, whatever, in a box.

01:28:09

You could go out to your car. And which I would do it in my car. You could take your

01:28:14

Glock out, load it up all the way you want. Put it in a holster that you already have.

01:28:20

Put it on your hip. You could drive home. You get stopped for a speeding ticket and you got a gun on you. The cop wouldn't say anything.

01:28:26

He goes, good for you. That's how it is here in Idaho. Yes. The land of the free.

01:28:33

Is that what you're trying to say? The land of the free. Yes. All right.

01:28:41

So maybe we'll go through the comments here. Joseph came back in. I don't know if he has another question.

01:28:47

So I'll add him in. So Joseph, if you have questions, you can ask away. Oh, no.

01:28:54

Well, yeah. I mean, in terms of, you know, we were going to discuss other things and I never got to it because this was a very interesting discussion once you started talking about the

01:29:03

Soviet thing. But somehow I had scheduled literally everything. I had scheduled,

01:29:10

I guess a broadcast got scheduled for me at the same time, which is why I sound scattered. So I'm kind of going back and forth and back and forth.

01:29:17

But in any case, so basically, I guess one of the things that I wanted to talk about.

01:29:25

Well, first off, I was following the chat and I noticed that for some strange reason. Oh, yeah.

01:29:31

I noticed that for some strange reason, James, we actually had him on and we had a nice discussion with him, was talking about the

01:29:41

Catholic and Orthodox beliefs. Now, Matt, I know that a couple of, oh, by the way, I invited

01:29:46

Ira Munkinuk. He's a priest monk and a friend of mine. He's actually, we do the show together.

01:29:52

So I said, why don't you come on the show with me? But anyway, so he's just there. But one of the things that I was noticing was that James, I guess, was talking about the

01:30:00

Catholic and Orthodox beliefs. And just for fun, just for fun, I was listening to your show earlier this week,

01:30:08

Matt. I went to, I listened to the Monday show. And one of the things you mentioned was the belief in the Catholics and Orthodox in the real presence.

01:30:15

And I thought it was interesting because what you had mentioned was this monstrance. And that's a

01:30:21

Roman Catholic thing. They really do bow before the monstrance with the Eucharist before their worship. What you might not know, however, is that that's actually, again, a tradition that formed well after the schism of Rome and the

01:30:34

Orthodox. Those monstrances were actually used originally to hold relics of saints.

01:30:41

And so what ends up happening, they used them for, you know, processions to heal the sick. You remember we talked about the healing of the sick, so on and so forth.

01:30:48

But after the schism, some groups and specific historical individuals started surmising, well, if you've got holy saints in these things, why don't we just put the

01:30:57

Eucharist in it? You could just worship that instead. And so that's where the entire bizarre devotion of praying and sitting in front of the host for hours.

01:31:07

They even have a perpetual adoration thing. I remember when I was a Roman Catholic, you're sitting there for hours and doing shifts.

01:31:15

So all this stuff, my point was that while we do worship the Eucharist, we certainly wouldn't make a habit out of it.

01:31:22

It's not something that you're supposed to be doing like that, because he says take and eat, not take and stare at.

01:31:29

So you admit to worshiping an object? Well, it's not an object, it's Christ. So the wafer is

01:31:37

Jesus with two natures? Well, it's interesting that you say that, because we had this discussion and there seemed to be some confusion.

01:31:46

But one thing that you had talked about was the human essence of the human essence of Christ.

01:31:53

Now, I had a question. Does that human essence have DNA? No, only the biological aspect.

01:32:00

The spirit of a person doesn't have DNA. Okay, so his human essence is in the bread and wine. How do you know that?

01:32:06

Because that's what he said. No, he didn't. No, he said this is my body and this is my blood.

01:32:11

He didn't say the human essence is in the bread. You said that. Well, that's what we've always taught.

01:32:18

Because you're making it up. Well, no, I'm not. How do we make the argument that I'm making it up?

01:32:26

If St. Ignatius, in talking about the docetus, specifically states that the reason the docetus separated was because they denied that the bread and wine were the body and blood of Christ.

01:32:37

But even further, I was looking at one of the quotes on the QARM website about the Eucharist because it interested me.

01:32:43

And it talks about one of, I forget which father it was, but he's talking about literally how Christians were being killed because they refused to say, oh, no, that's not really the body and blood of Christ.

01:32:54

He said it's really the body and blood of Christ. They got killed for cannibalism. So the point is, from a practical standpoint,

01:33:00

I'm not saying there's DNA in the bread. That's ridiculous. I'm not saying you can poop gut.

01:33:06

That's also ridiculous. What I am saying is that somehow, mystically and spiritually, and this is the tough part.

01:33:13

I've noticed this. Um, this has kind of been one of the impasses that we have in discussion.

01:33:20

Um, is that, uh, it seems to me there's always a logical thing going on. There's like, it's, this is illogical.

01:33:27

And it doesn't make sense. But our faith doesn't, in the end, make sense. We believe because it doesn't make sense.

01:33:35

Tertullian actually says, I believe because it's absurd. But the point is, that's whacked.

01:33:41

Why? I believe because it's absurd. Well, you know what? Blue sleeps faster than Wednesday.

01:33:49

That's absurd. Should we believe it too? What's absurd? Blue sleeps faster than Wednesday.

01:33:56

Blue sleeps. I don't even understand what that is. That's absurd, isn't it? No, it just doesn't literally make sense.

01:34:02

What is blue and what is Wednesday? Are they people? I think you're going to have to explain this to him. Matt, it went over his head.

01:34:10

I'm saying there's a difference between what we consider physical absurdity, like miracles, like healings from cancer that suddenly happen.

01:34:18

That's, from a scientific standpoint, absurd. But when you reduce that to, like, people speaking garbled

01:34:24

English, I mean, I'm sure there is somebody who says blue sleeps faster than Wednesday. Who knows? Hipsters might start saying that now,

01:34:29

Matt. The point I'm trying to make is that absurdity, in its true nature, and what

01:34:35

I mean by real absurdity, is the preposterousness of the gospel. And it is the preposterousness that makes it what it is, because God isn't a god of logic.

01:34:45

He doesn't make sense in the human sense. That's a load of crap. Sorry I got to say that. God's not a god of logic.

01:34:51

Of course he is. He's a god of knowledge, 1 Samuel 2, 3. I don't deny that. He's perfectly logical.

01:34:58

Come, let us reason together. The Logos became flesh and dwelt among us. To say he's not logical is just philosophical mumbo -jumbo.

01:35:05

My back hurts. I'm walking. It's absurd. OK, so I don't accept that for a second. So you believe that the

01:35:12

Eucharist is only the body of Christ, right? It's not the blood. Well, no, we believe in the blood that's united to the cross, and that the blood is the blood in there.

01:35:21

It's the same blood. Did he say, this is my blood? Yeah, he said it when he raised the cup. No, he did not say, this is my blood.

01:35:29

My blood of the new covenant. He literally said that. Yeah, he said this cup is poured out. Right, new covenant in my blood.

01:35:36

Did he say, because you guys are sticklers. You say the Eucharist is his body because he said, this is my body.

01:35:42

That's what you guys say. Did he say, this wine, this is my blood? Did he say that?

01:35:49

The answer is no. I'm pretty sure it's. No. Go ahead.

01:35:55

I'm doing it. See here, we'll go through the various translations.

01:36:02

This is my, the NIV says, this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for their mission of sins.

01:36:08

That would be a Matthew 26, 28. And the King James says.

01:36:14

Hold on. Let me look. Yeah, yeah, no problem. Okay. Yep.

01:36:30

It says in NDSB, this is my blood of the new, of the covenant, of the covenant.

01:36:36

Specifically saying it's, we, we would take that to mean where he's specifically saying, this is my blood of the cross because the covenant was sealed through the crucifixion.

01:36:45

So yeah, literal blood, totally take it. So you say, do you know what intinction is? Yes, I do.

01:36:51

Okay. Do you affirm? And oh, people don't know. Intinction folks is when the bread is dipped in the wine and the wine becomes infused with the bread is intinction.

01:37:00

One thing I should say, and we've got James here. He's a, he's a fellow scholastic and buys the logic.

01:37:06

Oh, okay. Great. I don't, I'm not a scholastic. I don't buy the logic thing in case we haven't figured it out. My point is we don't believe,

01:37:12

I mean, it's like basically your body and your blood are united. They're kind of, you know, there's no, there's, is there a meaning to it you're asking about?

01:37:21

Cause I don't know what the meaning is that you're getting that. To what? Is this intinction word you're using?

01:37:27

What are you, what are you referring to? Oh no, I was just saying, if you affirm it, that's all. If you affirm intinction, I'm assuming you get it. They put the body in the blood, but I don't understand precisely what, what that's supposed to mean.

01:37:37

Cause I assume there's a meaning to what you're asking about. No, I was just asking to see if you know about it.

01:37:43

It's like the formula thing. Like, you know, if you say a formula, then I gotcha. I was just, I was just asking to see that's what you believed.

01:37:50

Well, I don't believe in it. It's just a practice. There's nothing to believe in. You don't believe in intinction?

01:37:58

What does that mean? Believe in it. Where intinction is where the blood is infused into the bread in that process.

01:38:07

At least in Roman Catholicism at the lifting it up and the dipping and things like that. And then they're infused into each other.

01:38:13

You don't take two separate things. You take one thing. No, no. What happens is the body is physically united to the blood when the priest does this intinction as you refer to it.

01:38:24

But you know, it's all the body and blood of Christ. Like, in other words, if you intinct the bread and the wine, you do that.

01:38:32

Then when you're doing, you separate out communion to give to the sick. The assumption is that the body and blood are there.

01:38:38

But it's not like a specific. It's a strange question you're asking. It's just their body and the blood.

01:38:47

No, it's not a strange question. We're just probably talking past each other. Yeah. But you brought this back up.

01:38:53

But it, you know, take this is my body. And I've asked you quite. Sorry, I've got a bad bone back there.

01:39:01

And every now and then I have problems. I'm also a pastor. I'm very sympathetic to needing to paste. You're also what?

01:39:07

A pacer. Somebody who paces when they're thinking. Oh, oh, no, I do because my back hurts.

01:39:14

Deformed lower fourth lumbar vertebra. Well, you know, you brought this up about this whole thing. You're the one who says that, you know, we went over this last week.

01:39:22

I think it was whatever. And I was asking you questions, the nature of the answer. Feel bad I don't have much time. But it was kind of screwy how

01:39:29

I'm reading that today. But I'll get, I apologize for that. Well, okay. But first of all,

01:39:35

I want to back up a little bit for you to say God is not logical. You've got to abandon that because that's that's that's contrary to scripture.

01:39:43

But second, this idea of, you know, this is my body. You're going to have to say, and as I try to remember, as the

01:39:51

Catholics say, it's a sacrifice body of Christ. That is the element that you're taking, right?

01:39:57

Well, I wouldn't be joined to the sacrifice of Christ. Is it the sacrifice? Ask your buddy,

01:40:04

James, because the Catholics say, yes, it's the sacrifice body of Christ. Well, no, they do believe that it's the sacrificed body of Christ.

01:40:11

So when Jesus, the question is, when Jesus says, this is my body, he was saying when he said that this is my body. He was actually saying this is my sacrifice body.

01:40:19

He was saying it's my well, when Jesus is saying this is my body, and this is my blood of the new covenant.

01:40:25

It's not just his sacrifice body. It's his resurrected body. It's his body at all times.

01:40:31

So then the bread was actually his sacrificed and his resurrected body. In that bread, he was holding in his hand.

01:40:38

He changed it for his apostles and said to do it in memory of me. And he used the word anamnesis to make it a perpetual memorial.

01:40:45

Okay. And so you don't have a, you can't have a problem with it because you're given over to this.

01:40:52

So, so you're, you're given over to the depravity of your own home, your own heart, mind and stuff, because you're not saved.

01:41:00

You're not regenerate. Okay. Well, that's an interesting concept. I would say that as long as you are trapped within the balance of logic and continue to limit

01:41:08

God through logic and scholasticism, then you're not letting him into your life. Well, that's what you do.

01:41:15

You misrepresent me. I didn't say limit God through logic and scholasticism. I never said that. I just said,

01:41:21

I didn't say you were, I didn't say you said, you just said that. I'm saying the use of logic in this way is scholastic.

01:41:29

You said, I limit God using logic and scholasticism. That's what you said. That's not true.

01:41:35

I simply said to you, God is logical. You don't know what I do in atheist circles.

01:41:41

You mentioned a thing, an ordo something. What was it? Ordo salutis. Let me, let me finish. You don't know what

01:41:47

I do in atheist circles. I actually discuss and been doing it for many years and hundreds of hours discussing the relationship with the laws of logic, their transcendental essence to the very mind and the heart of God.

01:41:58

It's a topic I've, I'm known for in atheistic circles. So I would never say what you said about God.

01:42:04

What I would say is that the laws of logic are reflections of the mind of God himself. We would say he's a necessary precondition for intelligibility and we'd get into all kinds of stuff, but nevertheless,

01:42:14

God is not illogical and God cannot do that, which is illogical because logic and the true aspect of what logic is, is a reflection of his mind.

01:42:25

He cannot make a round square. And so that's just possible. I don't want to go into circles,

01:42:30

Matt, because I believe we covered this. I'm just reiterating, making sure that you understand that that's the case.

01:42:36

When we get to the issue of the, of this, of this stuff, what you're saying to me is that it's the resurrected body of Christ that he was talking about.

01:42:44

Well, why is it the resurrected body of Christ when the text doesn't say it? Because there's an inconsistency in your part. You say, this is my body, which means it's literally his body because he says it, but here's what he doesn't say.

01:42:54

And we're saying that it's also that. In other words, what you do is you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want to say, look,

01:43:00

I'm going to be literal here when it suits me, but I'm not going to be literal when it also doesn't suit me.

01:43:06

I think that, I think that the problem is that you're, you're kind of trying to put boxes in what

01:43:11

I'm saying. You keep saying, like, for example, you're saying that the body and blood or the sacrifice body and blood, do you believe that?

01:43:16

You said that. Well, no, you said that. You asked me if I believe that. Yeah, I'm saying you're the one saying that.

01:43:22

I'm not saying that. You are, I'm asking you. My point is that I don't limit Christ's body to the crucifixion.

01:43:29

He's in heaven with his body. Well, I don't limit him, whatever that means, to the crucifixion.

01:43:37

Of course, he's in heaven, a glorified body. So that's a meaningless statement. He can place that body anywhere.

01:43:44

But the point I'm trying to make is that it is larger than simply saying a fixed point in time.

01:43:51

So when you say that is his sacrifice body, what does that mean? And my point in bringing this up is because I want to get to the fact that these are bigger concepts than just a logical

01:44:05

A to B to C. That's exactly what created Roman Catholicism. And to some degree, the early

01:44:11

Protestants did not, but many of them eventually adopted scholastic categories. And that's why that ordo salutis is fascinating.

01:44:17

And there's no orthodox list in the different schemes on the Wikipedia, because it's kind of not how we do things.

01:44:26

The point is, faith in something, especially faith in God, requires a leap, a bit of a jump there that I don't see when we start saying logic is a reflection of the mind of God.

01:44:38

Thomas Aquinas could have said that. That's exactly what I would expect. But except his logic would never look like our logic.

01:44:44

Our logic would be weak in comparison. We can never understand that. And we established that. Of course, I got that. I have no problem with that.

01:44:50

But you're just driving a truckload through this one little statement, just like Luke 128 with the Catholics, full of grace, which is not what it says in the

01:44:57

Greek, but they'll drive all kinds of truths through this that really don't exist. And just like you're doing this in my body.

01:45:03

Now, all of a sudden, it's his sacrificed, resurrected body. It doesn't say that. It just says it's his body, which is a big deal.

01:45:10

Yeah. And we've already discussed what that means. I'm just going one step beyond that. What you have said is it's his glorified body, resurrected body, a sacrificed body.

01:45:19

That's what it is when he was given that to him. But it's not what the text says. I'm calling you out for your inconsistency.

01:45:26

I'm saying you want to say it's my body. So believe what it says. But what it also means is there's other stuff that it doesn't say.

01:45:32

So which is it? You're going to take it for what it says or you're not going to take it for what it says. OK, well, was Jesus's body sacrificed?

01:45:39

Later. Was Jesus's body resurrected? Later. Was Jesus's body born?

01:45:46

Earlier. OK, so all of those things were Jesus's body, though, right? Now you're equivocating.

01:45:54

And what you're doing is you're making a logical error. This is why you have got to start studying logic. Just because he is born doesn't mean when he says my body, this is the essence of my birth.

01:46:02

And just because he was crucified later doesn't mean this is the essence of my crucifixion. It doesn't mean those things.

01:46:09

Because Catholics have said to me, well, God can do whatever he wants. He's outside of time. What does that mean? Wait. Yeah, what does that mean?

01:46:15

Wait, but when Roman Catholics say God can do whatever he wants, it's a cop out because they know very well. That's what you're doing.

01:46:21

No. You're copping out. No, I'm absolutely not copping out. Yes, you are. I'd say my entire system is copped out.

01:46:28

I wouldn't pretend it's logical one day and then say it's a logical another. I'm illogically consistent. I'm showing you your inconsistency.

01:46:36

You say he said this is my body. So it means his body. We had a big discussion about that last week and the problems with that.

01:46:44

And then what we did was, as you're saying, it's also his blood, which doesn't make sense.

01:46:49

But anyway, and now you say, no, no, now you say, but no, you didn't.

01:46:55

You don't understand what you're doing. Okay. You think you showed me something that's not what it says, not what it means according to what you think.

01:47:01

So you said, this is my body. And you said, let's take it literally. But now you're saying when he said this is my body, what it also means is it's his resurrected, sacrificed, glorified body.

01:47:11

But it's not what the text says. You say, believe the text. And then you, on the other hand, you say, don't believe the text.

01:47:18

You're contradicting yourself because you're saying this is my body, but then you're adding all kinds of stuff into it that it doesn't say.

01:47:24

So which is it? Do we believe it for what it says? Or is it not the case? We believe, believe it for what it says.

01:47:30

That's a very good point. I'd say yes. Which is it? Do we believe it or not believe it?

01:47:37

We believe it, but it is going to be more than what we understand it to be. Okay, thus says you.

01:47:44

No, I'd say that's consistent with the entire Orthodox Church on that. Well, yeah, but you're representing the

01:47:51

Orthodox Church. And I don't buy the Orthodox Church's validity for a second. I believe that all who feel to, who uphold and believe in official

01:47:59

Orthodox theology regarding salvation are lost. No, that's an interesting concept.

01:48:06

I think it's, you know, I would say that's consistent of you. And I believe that if you don't accept, you know, the

01:48:13

Orthodox position and you don't receive the body and blood of Christ, then you have no life within you.

01:48:19

Now, I'm not, I'm not going to, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to get combative on it. And I feel like it's because I feel constrained for time.

01:48:26

And I don't want to take up your time all the day, all the time. Well, this is fine. I like to hear this, but you don't, doesn't your church, just to back up what

01:48:33

I was saying, doesn't your church teach, doesn't your organization teach that salvation is by your faith in Christ and what you do?

01:48:43

We believe that salvation, and I think you called me, you said, I upgraded from Mormon to Calvinist on this, that your actions would be a product of your faith.

01:48:52

So then would you say you're justified by faith alone in Christ alone, by grace alone without any works that you've done?

01:48:59

Yeah, no, I would say that. I would say that's in our prayers every morning. The point is, you know, we actually say that in our prayers.

01:49:06

Then how can, how can, how can your justification be a process? I don't,

01:49:12

I'm saying your life is a process. That's how it is a process. So, but you can lose your salvation.

01:49:18

Yes. And how do you lose your salvation? Give me one or two things, you know, how do you lose it?

01:49:23

By abandoning Christ. Okay. So you abandoned Christ. What does that mean to abandon

01:49:28

Christ? Seriously. You reject him. You say, this was all dumb. I give up. You know, I believe what the atheists believe.

01:49:35

I think he's just dead somewhere. So then when Jesus, when

01:49:40

Paul said that Jesus canceled the certificate of debt, the sin debt, and he canceled the sin debt for everybody.

01:49:47

Can that, which sin doesn't exist for a person then be restituted back upon the person? Ask your question a little more slowly.

01:49:55

I didn't quite understand what you said. Colossians 2 .14, in the context, having forgiven us all of our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees, which was hostile to us, he took it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

01:50:07

So Jesus took the certificate of debt, the sin debt, that's the context, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled the sin debt.

01:50:14

Okay. At the cross. How can you lose your salvation if all of your sin debt has been canceled at the cross?

01:50:22

That, well, you're talking about everyone's sin debt? Like in other words, like, well, it sounds like it because that's the only conclusion

01:50:29

I can... Judas, I assume, still believed in Christ after he betrayed him, and then he saw him resurrect and realized, oops,

01:50:36

I made a mistake and hung himself. So the point is, does he have salvation? Is there a Saint Judas? I mean, it's really, you know, some things can't...

01:50:42

Hold on, you're not answering my question. Because I believe in limited atonement. I do not believe Jesus bore the sins of everybody who ever lived, but only the elect.

01:50:49

And I can back that up from scripture. That's what my position is. Now, if he bore the sin, 1

01:50:55

Peter 2 .24, and he canceled their sin debt, Colossians 2 .14, then how is it possible for a person to lose his salvation?

01:51:03

Because that would mean then that the sin debt, all the transgressions of that person are canceled, then become back upon that person.

01:51:10

But how can it be that they don't exist anymore? Well, a fool returning to his folly is like a dog returning to his vomit,

01:51:16

Matt. It's wrong, but it happens. Okay, you're not answering the question. But it's like this. Let me give it... You don't understand the logic.

01:51:23

This is why you got to think more critically. And you're not doing that, which is why I believe you're...

01:51:29

Yeah, you do. So look, if I have a mortgage, right? And I say

01:51:36

I owe $100 ,000 on it. And someone goes to the bank one day and pays it off.

01:51:41

My legal debt is now canceled, right? Does it exist anymore? No. Can it be reinstituted against me at any time?

01:51:51

Well, how about a refinance? Can the same debt... Listen to exactly what

01:51:56

I'm saying. Those debts are gone. Okay. So it cannot be reinstituted to me, can it?

01:52:02

Okay. Sin is a transgression of the law of God. First John 3, 4. Jesus equated sin with debt, legal debt, when he said,

01:52:09

Forgive us our sins, forgive us our debts. And our Father who art in heaven, two versions. And that's how we're supposed to pray, yeah.

01:52:16

And so since he canceled it on the cross, he removed the sin debt, all of our transgressions.

01:52:21

So let's just pick a person who goes to heaven. Let's just pick a person, Bob. So I want you to think through this logically.

01:52:28

So Bob has all of his sin debt canceled at the cross, right? Sure. Okay.

01:52:34

All of it. Now, is it possible for Bob then to go to hell? I would say yes.

01:52:41

How is it possible if all of his sin debt, all of it is canceled?

01:52:47

Because after it is canceled, he sins again. But that's canceled. How can it, all of it be canceled?

01:52:54

How can he go to hell for something that doesn't exist anymore? All of it. Don't you understand what the word all means?

01:52:59

So you're saying past, present, and future. That's what it was to him on the cross.

01:53:05

All of our sins were future to him. All of them.

01:53:12

So you're saying effectively that you cannot at this point sin. I said all of our sins, past, present, and future.

01:53:23

If you're listening, it would not. Be logical for you. It would not be logical for you to say that I can't sin.

01:53:30

Well, that sounds like anarchy. What's to stop you from, you know, going and killing someone and then saying, hey, you know,

01:53:36

I'm good. This is the problem I have with people who say the same thing that they apparently don't understand what regeneration is.

01:53:44

They don't understand what regeneration is with salvation and justification. So you're saying you're changed as a person.

01:53:51

Yeah. 2 Corinthians 5 .17. New creatures are born again. What happens if you revert? We can't revert.

01:53:58

You can't make yourself unborn again. God makes us born again. He caused us to be born again.

01:54:03

1 Peter 1 .3. You're off topic. Listen, I'm trying to get you to understand and focus on something.

01:54:09

Sin is a legal issue. Not only, but it is a legal issue. If all of our sin debt is canceled by Jesus, he canceled all of Bob's sin.

01:54:19

All of it. How can Bob go to hell? Okay. You said a legal issue.

01:54:25

It is. I told you that. Legal issue. Sin is breaking the law of God.

01:54:31

1 John 3 .4. I think, okay, maybe now I'm starting to understand where we have kind of a difference here.

01:54:38

I don't believe sin is simply a legal issue. I didn't say simply. I said it is a legal issue.

01:54:45

Okay. I do this a lot with people. You do exactly what everybody does. I mean, I'm not mocking you. I'm familiar with this.

01:54:51

This is what happens. People don't hear exactly what I'm saying. I say it's a legal issue. I think not only a legal issue.

01:54:58

Okay. It's a legal issue. Matthew 6 .12, Luke 11 .4. Respectively.

01:55:03

God said, Jesus says, our father in heaven, forgive us our debts. Forgive us our sins.

01:55:09

Yeah. This is how you were to pray, right? Yes. Okay. Listen.

01:55:16

So, what Jesus is doing is he's equating sin debt with legal debt.

01:55:23

Sin with legal debt. The word sin is hermartia and the word debt is philema.

01:55:29

And he's saying, forgive us our sins, hermartia. Forgive us our debts, philema. He's equating legal debt with sin.

01:55:37

Jesus said in the cross, it is finished.

01:55:44

Oh, I can't believe it. 2219, John 2219, I think it is. I can't believe I forget that one. Anyway, he said, tetelestai in the

01:55:52

Greek, which is, it is finished, which is a legal statement that has been found in the bottom of tax receipts, handwritten after the contract's been written, which says the legal debt has been paid.

01:56:04

That's what it means. Tetelestai, legal debt. The word kairagraphon in Colossians 2 .14, having canceled the certificate of debt.

01:56:11

The word kairagraphon, which is certificate of debt, is a legal IOU of indebtedness, of legal indebtedness.

01:56:21

And Jesus bore our sin in his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2 .24. I could ask you a bunch of questions.

01:56:27

How is that possible from your perspective if sin is not legal? Because you can't transfer some ethereal presence of essence or whatever.

01:56:35

You get some weird stuff. Since Jesus equates sin with legal debt, Jesus is the one who said he, where is that verse in John?

01:56:44

Someone type that in. John, no, not 1 John 2 .19. That's another one. I'll get to that later.

01:56:50

The verse in, which is, it is finished. I can remember that. I've quoted it a thousand times.

01:56:56

I hate it when my brain does that. So Jesus is equating sin with legal debt. Paul talks about the legal debt being canceled on the cross.

01:57:03

Jesus bore our legal debts, our sin on the cross. If he canceled our sin debt, and if they're actually canceled, how could anybody go to hell?

01:57:13

Can I ask a question? You just did. Go ahead. Another one. Yep. So when in 2

01:57:21

Peter 2 .22, it says, for if after they've escaped the filthy things of the world through the rich knowledge of our

01:57:28

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again get entangled in them and succumb to them. Their last state has become worse for them than their first, for it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than having known it to turn back from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them.

01:57:46

They are illustrations of the true proverb. A dog returns to its own vomit, and a sow, after washing herself, returns to the mire.

01:57:54

Now, my question to you, because you keep talking about legal debt, is whether or not a person can return to the foul state they were before they were regenerated in Christ and returned to the state they were meant to be in.

01:58:10

And the answer, I think, is practically yes, because we have seen that happen.

01:58:16

So now you have doctrine by experience. As far as 1 and 2 Peter, you should read that it's written to the

01:58:22

Jews, just like the book of Hebrews is written to the Jews. So it's written to the nonbelievers? Let me finish.

01:58:30

If you go to Hebrews 6, 4 -6, you can go to Hebrews 10 -6, and you can go to 2

01:58:35

Peter 2 -20. They talk about the same kind of a thing. Those Jews, those people who were made aware of the grace of God, made aware of the sacrifice of Christ, and apprehended to some degree, they went back to their old ways, they're lost.

01:58:51

It never says that they were justified and saved. And that's the problem, is that those who are justified, in fact, let me show you something.

01:59:02

This is one of the heart issues of false doctrines and Roman Catholicism stuff.

01:59:09

This works, because it's true. Listen to what Jesus says. John 6 -37, all that the

01:59:14

Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. For I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

01:59:23

This is the will of him who sent me. This is the will of God the Father who sent Jesus, that all that he has given me,

01:59:31

I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. So that's John 6 -39.

01:59:36

The will of God the Father is that Jesus not lose anybody. All the ones that the

01:59:43

Father has given to the Son, the will of the Father is that Jesus not lose any. Can Jesus fail to do the will of the

01:59:49

Father? No. Then can he lose any? No.

01:59:54

Then that means you're eternally secure and you can't lose your salvation. But you're going back into universalism again, because—

02:00:01

I am not. I'm limited atonement. Limited atonement is not universalism.

02:00:06

He only paid for the elect. But that's not what the text says. That's what

02:00:11

I believe. I'm not going into universalism. The text says, all that the Father gives me will come to me.

02:00:17

Did he give everybody to the Son? Well, yeah, but—

02:00:23

He did? Everybody didn't choose to go with him. All that the Father gives me will come to me.

02:00:30

And the one who comes to me, I will certainly not cast out. So all that the Father gives them— Everybody, if you're saying that all that the

02:00:38

Father gives them is every individual that ever lived, then you're saying the Father gave everyone to Jesus. They'll come to him, and he will never cast them out.

02:00:46

No, that's not what I— I didn't say that. What I said, and I'm simply affirming that Jesus with the Father has dominion over creation.

02:00:54

All that I have— All that the Father has— All that I have is of the Father. What you're talking about is—

02:01:00

And the verse you just quoted is referring to Christ being equal with the Father. It isn't saying that all mankind is going to follow him.

02:01:07

That's universalism. No, you go to John 5 .20 and 5 .18 for that equality thing.

02:01:13

But look, you don't understand. He says, all that the Father gives me will come to me.

02:01:18

That's not every individual. Do you think that Jesus came to save everybody who ever lived?

02:01:23

He did not. No, he— Well, in theory, yes, but not everybody was going to follow him.

02:01:29

And I could go in all these different directions, but focus on the text. I'm about to start wrapping up, Matt. Why don't you just let me close it down?

02:01:38

I'll close it down. No big deal. I feel bad. Every time I want to talk to Andrew on this— Just let me close the room down, okay?

02:01:47

Yeah. I'll close it down. No big deal. This is important. This is good. And I want to—

02:01:53

He's on the ropes, and I'm going to show him he's on the ropes. I'm on the ropes? Yes, you are. I feel very logically on the ropes.

02:02:01

For Jesus says, all that the Father comes to me will come to me. All that the— excuse me. All that the Father gives to me. Who's the all that are given to the

02:02:08

Son by the Father? Let's say it's all dominion over creation. Okay. Who's who?

02:02:15

Not the what. Who is it that the Father gives to the Son? The life of creation.

02:02:22

I mean, all mankind. So you're saying every individual who ever lived? I'm saying every individual who ever lived, whether they are sinner or saint, whether they are fallen or not, is under the dominion of our

02:02:34

Lord Jesus Christ. So all that the Father gives me means every individual who ever lived, the

02:02:40

Father gives to me. That's what you're saying? Okay. So every individual that lives, the Father gives to me and will come to me.

02:02:48

And the one who comes to me— I didn't say that. That's what this— I'm reading what he says in John 6, verse 37. Okay, read this.

02:02:53

But what you say— Oh, you're reading very expressively. I'm trying to understand your position to put your words into the text because I'm reading the text to you and you're fighting against the text.

02:03:07

What do you think it means? Let me read the text because— John 6, verse 37.

02:03:12

All right, there we go. Let's get to John 6, verse 37. Okay, here we are.

02:03:19

John 6, verse 37. Let me turn on the light here. This refutes Catholicism, and it refutes

02:03:26

Arminianism, and it refutes Eastern Orthodoxy. It refutes it. That's why this is so critical.

02:03:33

So, and Jesus said unto them— Oh, wait. Hey, can we start at 35? Sure, start at 35.

02:03:40

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life. He that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

02:03:48

But I said unto you that ye have also seen me, and believed not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me.

02:03:55

Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came not down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

02:04:04

And this is the Father's will, which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but I should raise it up again at the last day.

02:04:13

And this is the will of him that sent me, that everyone which seeth the Son, that believeth on him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

02:04:22

Then the Jews murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, is this not

02:04:29

Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that he said, save I am come down from heaven?

02:04:36

I think that pretty much establishes that what I said, which is that everything that's given to Christ from the

02:04:43

Father is complete and total dominion. And he specifically says on 39 and 40—

02:04:48

Wrong, that's not what the text says. I literally read the text! Yeah, you read it, but then you just bastardized it.

02:04:56

Listen, all that the Father gives me will come to me. That's about people.

02:05:02

And then he says— Right? The one who comes to me, is that about dominion, or is it about people?

02:05:10

I'd say it's about all of it. Is it about people, or is it about dominion?

02:05:15

We'll go with people. We'll just go with people, because I feel like we're losing something in the theology there, but I'll go with people.

02:05:22

We're not. You are. But I say to you, I mean, verse 37, all that the Father gives me, you say the all, is every individual who's ever lived.

02:05:30

Yeah, that's what 39 would indicate, and then 40 would— Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. So all that the

02:05:36

Father gives me, every individual that the Father gives me, every individual who's ever lived that the

02:05:43

Father gives me will come to me. And the one who comes to me, I will certainly not cast out. Okay?

02:05:48

So you're saying that every individual on the planet who's ever lived will come to Christ.

02:05:54

Well, no, I'm saying every individual will be raised up at the last day, John 6, 39. Well, hold on.

02:06:00

Look at verse 37, one verse at a time, and then we read down what it says each time, because you don't realize it, but there's a trap in there for you.

02:06:11

Don't be so eager to jump ahead. What's the trap? Just one verse at a time. All—you're saying every individual that the

02:06:19

Father gives to Him, which you mean means every individual that ever existed, is who the

02:06:25

Father gives to the Son. And then that means that every individual who's ever lived will come to Christ.

02:06:30

Well, no, if you look at John 36, what he's talking about is people who have seen Him and still don't believe

02:06:35

Him. And the point is, when he says people that come to Him, those are the people that are saved.

02:06:42

So it's not everybody who ever lived. Well, no, I believe 39 points out that He will still be judge over everyone who ever lived.

02:06:50

Got you. But I'm asking you, all that the Father gives me, who's the all? I keep asking the same stinking question.

02:06:58

Okay, well, that would be those who are given to Him. Who's the all who are given to Him?

02:07:05

Those who will go to heaven. So it's not everybody who goes to heaven, so therefore not every individual is given to the

02:07:12

Son. Well, you see, when you say given, and it's almost like you're kind of implying here that the

02:07:19

Son doesn't have dominion over those who don't believe in Him. I'm just going for what it says right now.

02:07:25

All that the Father gives me, who's the all? You're just now saying it's not everybody who ever lived, when earlier you did say it was everybody who ever lived.

02:07:35

So which is? It's, what he's talking here, it's about those who are saved.

02:07:41

It's not everybody who ever lived? No. Okay, good. The people he's talking to aren't included in this.

02:07:50

These are the people who are going to leave him. Now, so it's not everybody who ever lived.

02:07:56

So you've changed your position. That's good. You're being more biblical. But notice that I have to get you to go over and over and over.

02:08:03

Let me finish. I have to go with you over and over and over in a text to get you to see what it actually says.

02:08:10

Well, you know why that is. You keep reading into the text what isn't there. Well, the reason that's occurring,

02:08:17

Matt, is because I could not tell the difference between what you were reading and what you were saying. But this round, I opened...

02:08:22

That's not a good sign. Well, this round I opened my scriptures so that I could see which texts you are referring to and what you are saying about them.

02:08:32

You should always go by the text. Well, you know, then we wouldn't be using logic, we would be using the scriptures.

02:08:40

But now if we continue... Logic and scripture go together. And look what it says. All that the

02:08:46

Father gives me will come to me. So it's not every individual. It's a limited group. But who that limited group is, is not yet disclosed.

02:08:54

We're just looking at what the sense says. So it's not everybody who ever lived. So it's... So we just say not everybody ever lived.

02:09:01

It's a limited group, whoever that is. Those people who are given to the

02:09:06

Son, the one who comes to him, he will never cast out. I will certainly not cast out.

02:09:12

So he says, all that the Father gives me will come to me. The ones given to him by the

02:09:17

Father will come to him. It doesn't say those who go to heaven are given to him.

02:09:24

That's reverse. No, those who are given... Okay, that's kind of... Okay, go ahead.

02:09:30

They're given to him by the Father. And the one who comes to him that Jesus will never cast out.

02:09:37

I certainly will not cast out. And then he says, for I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

02:09:43

This is the will of him who sent me. That all that he's given me, I lose nothing.

02:09:50

So the ones, as you say, go to heaven, not just the ones who go to heaven later on, and then they're given because they went to heaven.

02:09:55

That's not the text. It says that the ones who are given him by the Father will come to him. That means they were given to him in the past.

02:10:04

They will come to him. It's not a future giving. Okay? Because it says all that the

02:10:10

Father gives me. It's, you know, in the present tense. It's not a future thing. It's talking about the past and what's going on.

02:10:15

He's given them to me. And the one... I'm saying it's an eternal thing, but okay. It has to do with election.

02:10:21

That's another topic. That's what it is. But that's the logic stuff. But this is what it says.

02:10:29

He says, for I've come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. This is the will of him who sent me. That all he's given me,

02:10:34

I lose nothing. If it's the will of the Father that Jesus lose none of all that are given to him by the

02:10:41

Father, can Jesus lose any? Um, okay.

02:10:47

Let me see if I understand you correctly. Can Jesus lose any of the Father that the

02:10:52

Father has given to him? Can he lose any of them that are given to him by the Father? No. Good. So the ones who are given by the

02:10:59

Father to the Son will come to him. That means there are people in the future who are going to come to him because they're given to him by the

02:11:07

Father and they will never be lost. Um, yeah. Okay.

02:11:13

I'll buy that. That means you just said earlier that you could lose your salvation. Well, yeah, because you don't know if you're one of those lost.

02:11:20

No, it doesn't matter if you know or not. That's not the issue. You don't know how much it matters. No, it does not.

02:11:26

You don't understand. You do not know how to think critically. Knowing whether or not you're elect doesn't mean you are or are not.

02:11:32

What he's saying here is of the group that are given to him by the Father, he will never lose any of them.

02:11:40

They cannot be lost. I agree with that. So then you cannot lose your salvation.

02:11:47

Well, in theory, and I'll say what I mean by it. Yes, but you cannot tell me who is going to be saved.

02:11:55

That's irrelevant to the issue. It doesn't matter. No, it's not. No, it's not.

02:12:01

Because look, you don't know who that is. But the Father knows who they are. The Father gave them to the

02:12:07

Son. And the fact is what Jesus is teaching is once you're given to the Son, you cannot be lost.

02:12:16

And that's the point I'm trying to make is that Jesus is clearly telling us you're not, you're never going to be lost.

02:12:22

You say you can be lost. You contradict Scripture. You contradict

02:12:27

Christ. And you accuse Jesus of sin. No, I do not. Yes, you do. You're saying that Jesus failed to do the will of the

02:12:36

Father by losing some. Okay, I'm saying that those people who were lost, were lost in a temporal sense.

02:12:45

Were they ever written in the Book of Life? I would say no. That's not relevant to the question of whether or not they were lost here on, whether or not they were lost here on Earth.

02:12:55

Those are two very different types of things. Jesus, you can't lose your salvation.

02:13:00

Jesus says he will lose nothing. But you don't know if you have your salvation. Yes, I do. I know I do. Look, the issue here is that the point is that those who are given to the

02:13:10

Son by the Father cannot be lost. They will not be lost. They cannot lose their salvation.

02:13:17

So what does St. Peter mean in 2 .22? I explained it. He's talking to the

02:13:23

Jews, to the Jews scattered abroad. Read the first few verses of each book. And you see he's talking to the

02:13:29

Jews. And he's talking to them about, as a matter of fact, he says, denying the Lord who bought them.

02:13:37

Yeah. Right. And if you know any Judaism and you know Old Testament, I think it's

02:13:43

Deuteronomy 32 .6, where it says that the people of Israel denied the

02:13:48

Lord who bought them. And they were bought out of Israel. It doesn't mean that they were all saved.

02:13:54

And if you also were to scan through, in my Bible, Old Testament quotes are in caps.

02:14:00

So I could just page, scan, scan, scan. And you'll see that Peter is writing, he's writing, he's referencing the

02:14:07

Old Testament numerous times, plus allusions besides just quotes. It's a very

02:14:12

Jewish appeal that he's giving. And he's using the Old Testament phraseology, which in my opinion, I can't prove it.

02:14:18

I believe he's referencing Deuteronomy 32 when he says that the Jews who were bought by the Lord and were in the wilderness were denying the

02:14:25

Lord who bought them. It doesn't mean they were all redeemed. That's a Jewish, that's the context of this whole thing.

02:14:34

Now, in Colossians 2 .14, Paul says that Jesus canceled the sin debt, the certificate of debt.

02:14:43

If it's canceled, it cannot be held against you. You cannot lose your salvation. You're calling

02:14:49

Jesus a liar. I'm not calling Jesus a liar. I think part of the problem is that...

02:14:55

Can you lose your salvation? It's an interesting... I mean, from a perspective of God, no.

02:15:02

Okay. You either can lose your salvation or it's not the case that you can lose your salvation. I mean, one could make the argument that what appears to be a loss of salvation is, as you would put it, a predestination of what was meant to occur.

02:15:16

That said, that said, I can't see the future because I'm not

02:15:22

God. Neither are you, last I checked. So the point is, I must operate under the assumption that, in fact,

02:15:31

I can become one of those who fell, one of those who lost his salvation, because we are...

02:15:38

You just said you can't lose your salvation. From God's perspective, you can't.

02:15:43

From a human perspective, you can. So which perspective is the one that God's talking about, or Jesus is talking about in John 6?

02:15:50

Obviously God's. Right. And when Paul's talking about it in Colossians 2 .14, which perspective is it?

02:15:56

Obviously human. No, it's not. He canceled the certificate of debt on the cross.

02:16:03

Who did he cancel it for? So then how did they return to their vomit? Wow. Talk about ripping something out of context.

02:16:10

Who did Jesus cancel the sin debt for? Everybody who ever lived? Or not everybody who ever lived?

02:16:17

Everyone who the Father gave him. Then it's not everyone who ever lived. So you believe, just like I do, in limited atonement, that Jesus only bore the sins of the ones given to him by the

02:16:28

Father. Well, yeah. I mean, I never believed everyone was going to be saved. That would make me a universalist. So you don't realize it.

02:16:34

If your friend James is listening, and if he knows his Orthodox theology, he's going to have to sit you down and correct you now.

02:16:40

He doesn't know Orthodox theology. He's a Roman Catholic. Oh, okay. I thought it was an

02:16:46

EO guy. So you just are speaking against EO now, and you don't even realize it. I'm not speaking against EO.

02:16:52

Yes, you are. They teach you can lose your salvation. They're talking about it in a temporal sense.

02:16:58

No, they're not. Yes, they are. I shall prove it, if I may. Please do.

02:17:05

Okay. Remember how I said it's in our morning prayers? May I?

02:17:12

Yeah. Sure. Hold on. Give me one second, because I have to pull it out here.

02:17:22

Matt, while he's looking, we're going to have to wrap it up. So the guys at the after show are waiting. Oh, that's right.

02:17:27

I forgot about that. Let's just go to the after show. We'll just go over there. You want me to just go to the after show?

02:17:32

Well, can I just finish this? Because I think you'll find it very interesting. Let's finish it up, and then we'll do that. But if you want to have the longer discussions, you got to come in early, not at the last 15 minutes of the week.

02:17:43

Literally, this was a mistake in scheduling, and I really apologize again. That was it, but it'll be fixed.

02:17:50

Hold on. Where's the after show link?

02:17:57

Right there. The search engine is killing me.

02:18:08

How about if I just go over there, and you can finish it over there? How about we'll wrap it up here, and then we'll go to the after show at the council.

02:18:16

Where's a link to this after show? It's in the chat here. So, and then

02:18:23

I'll put it onto the YouTube page. Are you coming, Andrew? Probably not.

02:18:29

Oh. Why? We never get to, because we never get to talk. All right.

02:18:35

Well, that's what this show. You can do it. All right. I'll show up on time next time. All right. So, I'll bug

02:18:40

Matt now. All right. So, I'll give time for Matt and Joseph to get over to the after show, and if you want to join the after show, it is,

02:18:51

I think, on the council's hangout page or YouTube page.

02:18:58

But I'll drop a link in that's put on by the guys over at the council. So, and they started over,

02:19:06

Eastern Orthodox is how the council started. But anyway, they're a great group of guys. So, they may turn their after show into a podcast soon that might be part of the

02:19:17

Christian podcast community. We look, and this has been Apologetics Live, which is, you can be heard as a podcast on the

02:19:26

Christian podcast community. So, you guys can check that out. The link is kind of taking me into this thing.

02:19:36

Hold on. It's taking me. Oh, okay. Hold on. Hold on. All right. Okay. I see it.

02:19:41

Let me close out the show, and then you could do that.

02:19:47

All right. All right. So, he's gone. Good. All right.

02:19:52

Well, so, if you want to find out more about the Christian podcast community, you can go to christianpodcastcommunity .com,

02:20:02

find out more. We got several podcasts coming up. Justin Peters will be starting up Didache pretty soon, which we're looking forward to getting some of his teaching.

02:20:12

We just released the Christian podcast awards. And so, if you want our community awards, you can just go to the

02:20:20

Christian podcast community, that podcast, and listen to the awards given. You can also find it at Striving for Eternity, just in the search type podcast awards, and see what we thought were the best

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Christian podcasts and best Christian podcast episodes for 2018.

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We thank Matt for coming on and all the guests who came in. We do want to encourage folks, come in early and join often.