April 19, 2016 Show with Tom Ascol on “Bringing Maturity to Young, Restless, and Reformed”

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Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 19th day of April 2016.

I'm so delighted that we have returning to our program one of my favorite guests from the old Iron Sharpens Iron broadcast, Dr. Tom Askell, who is Senior Pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

He is the Executive Director of Founders Ministries and Teaching Fellow of the Nicole Institute of Baptist Studies at the Reform Theological Seminary in Orlando, Florida. Today we're going to be discussing the theme, Bringing Biblical Maturity to the Young, Restless, and Reformed, and we're going to be examining what this group is all about and also trying to get definitions on things like New Calvinism and all kinds of things that I'm sure will develop as a result of that.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Tom Askell. Thank you very much, Chris. Oh, I'm very honored beyond words, brother, and it's time for me to introduce you on air, at least, to my friend and co-host as of late, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Hello, Tom.

Hi, brother. It's good to meet you.

I thought he was about to say the late Buzz Taylor.

Grace Baptist Church, Founders Ministries, and the Nicole Institute of Baptist Studies

Before we go into the theme at hand, some of our listeners may be discovering you for the first time. Tom, why don't you let them know about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, Founders Ministries, and also the Nicole Institute of Baptist Studies.

Right. Well, Grace Baptist is a church that has been in Cape Coral, Florida, for about 33 -34 years to complete my 30th year of ministry here. And sadly, like most or at least many Baptist churches, there are some wrong motives in being 89.

Our second London Baptist Founders Ministries is an organization that's been going on since 1987. Seven guys in a prayer meeting and thinking through the implications of the origins, we decided to try to have it once.

And the Nicole Institute of Baptist Studies, obviously, I'm guessing, that's named after Roger Nicole? That's correct. Roger Nicole,.

When he was in Conwell, moved down to Orlando. Now, going back to Grace Baptist Church of Cape.

Coral, was that church founded by Ernie Reisinger? No, it was not.

Okay. Yeah, the reason I brought up Ernie is that I knew he had some connection with.

Grace Baptist, and he did found the church where I'm currently a member, the Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania. That's correct. That's very true. And, well, the theme that we have today seems to be a very controversial theme, and there seems to be confusion amongst a lot of folks, including myself, as to where on the landscape of theology the Young, Restless, and Reform movement falls.

And would you use, as a synonym for this movement, New Calvinism, or is that something different?

Well, I suppose it is somewhat of a synonym, though, both, and in that Young, Restless, and Reform movement, in fact, they are thinking about it's true today, outside the camp. Well, yes, obviously, going back to your.

Comment about Calvinism itself, or Reformed theology, or Reformed Christianity, I should say, being diverse, obviously there are a number of different confessions of faith, which would be proof right there that you have a diversity that has existed.

You have the Westminster Confession, you have the Savoy Declaration, you have the Three Forms of Unity, you have the London Baptist Confession, so you have the 39 Articles of Religion of the Anglican Church, so you do have different expressions that have existed throughout the centuries of these doctrines.

Right, and then when you stop to think about people, and John Gill, Andrew Fuller, within the Puritans themselves, there seems to be an interesting mix of people that are associated.

With what is called New Calvinism, or the Young, Restless, and Reform, that don't seem to, on face value, belong together. Mark Driscoll and Al Mohler, really, that's interesting.

Yeah, I do, and, you know, back in the 80s, whenever we talked about a law, heresy is not enough, and I'm almost tempted to go into that today. In fact, I'm beyond tempted, I'm there, to say that Reformed is not enough, or Calvinism is not enough.

Harsh about that.

Now, would you have men that you and I both love and respect and admire, like Al Mohler and Mark Dever, would they identify themselves as New Calvinists?

Well, I don't think so. I mean, I certainly don't identify myself that way, because I'm nearly 60 years old, so there's nothing to do about it. Mark and Al aren't that far behind me, so, leadership.

Now, one of the things that I've heard about this movement that could be taken very positively, whether or not those who are the movers and shakers in the movement are being a bit too free with their criticisms of, quote, quote, old Calvinists, perhaps even misrepresenting or to the point of slandering, but the understanding that many Calvinists have become, in practice, hyper-Calvinists, not that they were doctrinally hyper-Calvinists, but they were very isolationist and satisfied with remaining in fellowship within the four walls of their church buildings and not really reaching out into the community and trying to redeem the culture surrounding us.

Would that be a justifiable way or a correct way of explaining the phenomenon?

Yeah, I think so, and, of course, there's a broach to be brought to the table. So, I think some of the young, and so I admire, Associate Pastor, today, how much we have to learn, perhaps, how much we have to learn to reach out and love.

Some go too far and some are naive and almost think we're not proclamating communication verbally of the message or we're not sending the message out, recognizing the dangers of worldliness. People like John MacArthur have seen this clearly and spoken to it very boldly and, I think, helpfully, but I don't think it's always been received real well by some.

Do you think that the New Calvinism movement might be, even if unconsciously, buying in too much to what used to be the playground of the Arminians exclusively, but the seeker-sensitive movement and trying to adopt too much of the characteristics of the world in order to be appealing to the lost community around them?

Like, for instance, I know that the New Calvinism or the Young, Restless, and Reform group have been criticized by those with more traditional music in their churches, perhaps even from outside of Reformed theology.

The fundamentalists have harshly repudiated the Young, Restless, and Reform group for incorporating rap music into their evangelism and worship and so on. Now, like, for instance, to give you an example about the view I have of that, of rap music in particular, I mean, when you boil down rap to its essence, it's really just poetry, it's rhyming, but I do think that there is something very evil about the stage presence and the gimmickry of the hip-hop culture that really, you know, has imagery of arrogance and pride and greed and misogyny.

Bad dude kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah. You know, the whole gold, thick gold chain and, you know, the whole arrogance and machismo and so on that very often accompanies even Christian rap. But am I making sense here, though, as far as this movement being equated with incorporating that kind of thing too much?

Well, yeah, I think I understand you. I would say, I'm not sure I would, I wouldn't say it the way you just said it, and I'm not sure I'm thinking about guys with theology talking about, we're talking about rap song.

But I've also, I've also been, you know, there's a, and there's a wonderful place that's really quickly savvy.

Let me speak from the standpoint of perhaps some of our listeners, because not everybody listens to Iron Sharpens Iron, you know, haven't listened to it very long. And I don't get all the reform magazines and things like that.

But you're mentioning a bunch of names and things, and these things have not yet, I'm not getting this from my pulpit in church. So I'm not really understanding what exactly it is we're getting at here, because I don't know the people you're referring to or what they're doing.

So can you give me a little bit more of a definition of what you mean by the New Calvinism or even the Young Restless and Reform? Because to the lay person in the church, you know, it's not coming across our Christian radio station here because it's not reformed at all.

So I'm totally uninformed about what you're talking about, I guess is what.

I'm saying. Yeah, well, I think there'll be guys that take God's word seriously. They believe in inerrancy and sufficiency of scripture. Firm might be a little bit out of a... We have to go to a.

Break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Tom Askell regarding the New Calvinism or the Young Restless and Reformed movement, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Whether you agree with what's being said, whether you disagree, or whether you're just not certain, we would love to hear from you.

And please include your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA. If it makes you feel more comfortable to remain anonymous, we will respect your wishes. And we're going to be right back after these messages with Tom Askell, so don't go away.

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Defining New Calvinism and the Young, Restless, and Reformed

Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Tom Askle. And we are discussing the Young, Restless, and Reform Movement, a New Calvinism, as it's sometimes called.

And if you would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And we look forward to hearing from you. If you have questions, we already have a couple of people that have sent us questions. So we look forward to reading them in a moment and seeing if Dr. Askle can answer them.

But we also, before we return to our discussion, I wanted to make sure that I let you know about a pastor's retreat that's coming up. Our newest sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron, P &R Publishing, also known as Presbyterian and Reform Publishing, they wanted me to inform you that they, in cooperation with the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, are running the Faithful Shepherd Men's Retreat, or pastor's retreat, May 9th through 11th at Harvey Cedars, which is a beautiful conference center on the Jersey Shore in New Jersey.

That's May 9th through 11th. The speakers are going to be Dan Doriani and David Powleson, both of whom have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron. And if you'd like more details on this pastor's retreat, go to AllianceNet .org, and you click on the tab at the top that says Events.

So we hope that if you are a pastor and live near New Jersey or in New Jersey that you would be attending that event. I also want to keep reminding you that a week from this Thursday, the Iron Sharpens Iron pastor's luncheon is going to be held at the Thornwald Mansion right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and the guest speaker is David Wood, who is an expert on Islam.

He has traveled all around the world debating some of the most prominent Muslim apologists and clerics, and he is, I describe him, he doesn't describe himself this way, but I describe him as having at least nearly a photographic memory when it comes to not only the scriptures, but even the Quran, and he is a really amazing resource on this issue of Islam.

He's basically going to be speaking on separating facts from fiction when it comes to the Islamic religion. This is all free of charge. If you are a man in ministry, you're going to get a free lunch. You're going to hear the speaker that I just mentioned, David Wood of AnsweringMuslims .com.

You're going to also hear a word from Pennsylvania State Representative Stephen Bloom, who is a man who is truly committed to his Christian faith, unwavering commitment to Christianity. He's a very impressive brother in Christ who's been on this program twice.

I look forward to having him back many times. It's very rare that I hear someone involved in politics who is as unashamed of his Christianity as Stephen Bloom is, and he is a very bold voice for the gospel in the political arena.

He will be speaking there as well. Each pastor that attends this luncheon is going to be leaving with a very heavy sack filled with books donated by major Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom.

I'm serious when I say that it's probably going to be close to 30 or 40 pounds that they're carrying out. But anyway, if you'd like to join us on that day a week from this Thursday, please RSVP by Saturday, and you can email me at chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Just to remind you, this is absolutely free of charge, and that you're not going to be having to spend a penny at this luncheon, so we hope to see you there. We already have some listeners that want to ask a question of Dr. Askell.

First, we have Tyler in Mastic Beach, New York. Hi, my name is Tyler. I'm from Mastic Beach, New York. I'm a student online with Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I agree with all you said. There are some elements of worldliness in the New Reform Movement.

What advice should you give to the charismatic gifts since it compromises scripture alone? What advice? That's the way he worded it, but perhaps what do you have to say about the danger of the charismatic movement, I guess, is basically what he's talking about, because he sees it as a violation of sold scriptura.

Yeah, we're basically talking about biblical authoritative preaching. Praise God. I believe in an ongoing prophetic ministry. I think it is set forth, same thing with apostles, the apostolic word of God.

So, yeah, I do think there are some real cautions and impose them upon themselves to guard against undermining. Well, thank you very much, Tyler. And since you have.

Emailed us a question today, you're getting a free New American Standard Bible, bonded leather, beautiful Bible, compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible who are sponsors of the Iron Sharpens Iron program.

And they are celebrating their 74th year of bringing God's word to God's people. So we thank them for not only sponsoring this program, but for providing Bibles for our listeners. And we thank Tyler for writing.

We also have a listener in Georgia. We have Brandon, who has a question. What do you think about the New Calvinist perspective, understanding, and practice of the regulative principle of worship? Or is the.

Movement too diverse on the issue to apply the question? Yeah, well, I think they're going to make one chapter. Well, thank you, Brandon in Jackson, Georgia. You're also receiving a free,.

Beautiful, bonded leather. New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers. So thank you for that great question. Now, are the Southern Baptists that are obviously in your denomination who are not reformed, are they using the New Calvinism as a way to broad brush all Calvinists in your denomination, and therefore continue launching the attack against the doctrines of grace by trying to basically cookie cutter Calvinists in the.

Denomination? Well, yeah, I think some have attempted that. I don't, it doesn't gain much.

Now, I know this is a little bit off topic, but my mind is still totally boggled by the fact that you could have vehement anti-Calvinists who are considered the bulwark of the Southern Baptist Convention.

And how do they go about continuing to radically oppose and vociferously and aggressively oppose Calvinism when it is clearly the doctrine embraced by the founders, which is why, you know, the organization that you're the executive director for, Founders Ministries, that's why you call it that, is because the denomination was founded by Calvinists.

So.

How do they justify that? Well, less of that going on. Again, that doesn't mean critique, not at all. Wow. You know, can easily disprove that. I could see that as a Presbyterian. Yeah. And so when you get that kind of stuff coming out, and this is the, like that, historical mistakes like that are made, then we need to make them.

There are too many superficiality. People are still doing it, and it's being done in academic circles as well. There was an article that came out in the Theological Journal of my alma mater, Southwestern, wrote the article.

It's a high level, there wasn't any name calling, or because there's just too much evidence on the.

Other side. Is there any kind of fellowship taking place between those in the Young Restless and Reformed group and those who are from the Emerging Church movement? Well, you know,.

There's an interesting history behind that. Mark Driscoll actually came out of the Emergent Church movement, and it's a fascinating story. So at least the old guard of Calvinists should be.

Pleased that the complementarian aspect of gender roles is still intact in their view.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so many things to celebrate and to be grateful for. I mean, we can take a snapshot. And where would the majority of these Young Restless and Reformed.

Individuals be from denominationally or in regard to fellowship? Would most of them be Baptistic? Would they be Presbyterian? Would they just be equally divided amongst those groups?

Well, it's really, and I don't know. That's to the consternation of some who don't think so. You know that. Oh, yeah. That argument, pretty sure. Yes, yes. You are referred to as Calvinistic Baptists.

Yeah, right, right. But it's fascinating to me that it seems like at least there's a strong element. We certainly have a significant place. We're going to be going to a break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Tom Askell and our discussion on the Young, the Restless, and the Reformed.

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If you just tuned us in for the last hour, we have been discussing the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement with our guest, Dr. Tom Askle, and we will continue to do so for the next hour. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Now, you've been saying a lot of positive things about this movement. What are your major concerns that you think might require a lasso of some sorts to hold them at bay to a degree or at least get them.

To pause and reconsider things? Yeah, well, there are two or three things that I believe quite a while. They're about the first church life, internal faith, and everyone should be formal about it, be willing to be formal about it, and a good confession of faith does that.

So, that's one area that I see as a weakness. I mean, they're good guys, and some of them will even tip down to confessions, but not really. Now, is there objection to that, that it's.

Too much of an anchor to the past, or what's the point on the anti-confessional?

Well, yeah, I think for some, at least, I think there's a naivete. You know, we don't need what others have said and not like the vision of it and aspects of it, and in doing so, they think about how to minister.

I think you're missing out on something that is good confession of faith, used well in the life of a congregation, used well in the life of a Christian. Yeah, as they have been called there, they're excellent guardrails against heresy,.

Because somebody has to, if you have an official confession of faith that you have adopted, then when you violate that, there's going to be more of a noticeable drift outside of a cherished and firmly held system of belief.

Absolutely, and what it is, it's saying we are pre-committed to these truths, or wanted us to enter from seventh day Sabbath. We're not coming to the table neutral. We're coming to the table with pre-commitment.

We lay our cards on the table. This is what we've already thought through. This is what we've already affirmed to be these things, and it's not always gone over. We're just not open-minded. Well, we are open-minded, if you can show us from Scripture, but we're not coming here without conviction.

We've nailed our convictions to the mast. This is who we are. This is what we think is true. Otherwise, you're going to have to show that we have confessed, and we have confessed with people now for hundreds of us to.

Talk. Well, you mentioned robust confessionalism, but we're still missing two points here.

You said there were three things that you were... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I would say the other, and it kind of flows out of that confessionalism, but one thing where there's a glitch is the issue, the relationship of law and gospel.

I think there's this foundation. Good confession will get this straight and will assert it, and the longer that I live and minister, the more convinced I am that this is the very truth of what is people thinking.

So, to the view of law and gospel, how they relate to each other, how they serve each other, that the other does any number of errors, and in fact, I think can be traced back at some point problems with sanctification, and we've got a lot of that today.

Right, yeah. This is law. Law and gospel appreciate the fact that they see the importance of each other. I believe it's begun, this new book, by certainly in the last 10 or 15 years. And we still have a third.

Yeah, and this would, again, it fits under the confessional issue, but it would be in the realm of, I should say, a lot be more in terms of leadership and being a, and so putting on a video in seven different places, old care be done.

Again, I know there have been a lot of debates about this. I just had to remind myself that I'm listening to a Baptist. Well, it was a very big.

Controversy, at least in my area, in Buffalo, New York, years ago, around the time of my ordination, and it was a hot topic. Yeah. And Baptist, and I was almost like the word elder.

Was removed from the scriptures. Oh, I know, I know. Some people still get really nervous about that. But, you know, if you look at our old Baptist records, I mean, it's just some of our, and in the Mississippi, his name was elder or something.

That's how they call it. They call him pastor. They call him elder. Come back to why would you be offended by a word that's in.

The Bible? Well, that was my contention at that time, but I was definitely in the minority. Well, this is when I was in, well, of course, like I said, I, I pastored in, I can't even say it anymore, independent Baptist church.

And so, you know, it was a total different species from what we're talking about now, as far as reformed Baptists are concerned. And elder was, was just, it was non-traditional, but Baptist churches did not have elders.

And how could you justify being in.

A Baptist church that did that kind of thing? Well, obviously there are Baptist churches, though, that have created an unbiblical elder board. That is like some kind of a morph between deacons and pastors.

Do you follow what I'm saying? Would you agree with that Dr. Rascal?

Okay. Yeah. Elaborate on that a little bit more of what you're talking about.

Well, in my experience amongst reformed Baptists, the teaching has predominantly been, with some exception, but predominantly has been that there are only two offices in the church in the scriptures, and that is pastor and deacon.

And the pastor would also be described biblically as an elder or as a bishop, but, but the overseer, shepherd, but there's only two offices, elder, deacon, and there are some churches that almost have developed an advisory board or something of that nature that is called the elder board that doesn't really have the identity of the pastors.

Or the elders or the shepherds. Yeah. Yeah. I think I understand what you're saying now, like church councils or committee on committees or something. And what I've seen too in churches, I've been a part of deacons, deacons take on more of a ruling function.

Yes. Yes. They're the decision makers. And, and, uh, you know, some of the, they were not doing the same Bible saying, but that's not what deacon's supposed to do. We do have a question from Christian.

In Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and it basically, uh, touches on something you were already saying, and perhaps you could elaborate more on that. His question is, uh, because of the lack of confessional standards amongst many in this young restless and reform movement, do you see a blending or a dominance of the new covenant theology being embraced?

Because since I've witnessed that most of the new covenant men that I have become familiar with are non-confessional.

Well, yeah, that's, there probably is a connection there. I think that's probably.

Maybe you could define that. I mean, and I want to make it clear also that I do have very dear beloved friends who are in the new covenant theology movement and I've interviewed them and some of them are really brilliant writers and powerful speakers and so on, but if you could.

Yeah, absolutely. And basically the new covenant theology, as I understand it, it'll be primarily as a covenant. Which would include nine of the 10 commandments. Yeah, usually the fourth commandment is the donkey on which the tail or the tail on which the donkey is.

Right, right. And so it's a fine point. The best that I've got new covenant friends too, and the best another implication or question I have is if we're going to get our, that we've got, we've got, does not forbid no Israel in special ways.

So it came to Israel as a Jesus.

And by the way, uh, Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, we'll start, we'll start, we are still waiting for your full mailing address so we can ship you out a new American standard Bible and a Christian in Cumberland County.

We are going to be sending you one as well. Thank you very much for the, uh, the question, the excellent question. Um, now one of the things that, uh, that seems to be a positive thing. I mean, when it comes to ecumenism, uh, there is, I mean, some of us from more conservative backgrounds, uh, you know, go into convulsions when they hear that term, but obviously there's a biblical ecumenism that should and must be taking place if you're going to be a biblical and obedient Christian.

But, uh, uh, obviously that can be taken to a sinful and unbiblical extreme when people are linking arms with apostates and so on. Uh, but, uh, do you see a healthier understanding of biblical ecumenism coming out of this movement or is it too dangerous in your.

Opinion? I think it's healthy. Well, conference was, we were talking about, well, I think one of.

Our guests, I can't remember which one since we've had so many, if you talk to Chris, everybody's.

Been on iron sharpens iron. Well, I don't think I've ever made that, but a few weeks ago,.

One of our guests actually pointed out, and I thought this was a really good way of looking at it because we're accused so often of building these walls around our groups and that was okay. And he said, no, it's backyard fences.

Yes. Yes. Where we, we talk over the backyard fence, we're good neighbors, but, uh, so, and, but yet there's certain places where we have to like, you know, I certainly wouldn't come to you with my children and say, would you please baptize them?

You know, so I have to go to a place where that's going to happen, but that doesn't mean that.

There's a wall. It just means there's a backyard fence. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And when that request comes over the fence, that's when I turn the garden hose on you. Oh yeah. Spray. You guys had a new baptism.

Okay. I didn't mean as a form of baptism. I mean, to chase you away. Oh, sorry. But, uh, there seems to be, uh, a lot of, uh, I mean, what's the word I'm looking for? There seems to be a lot of militancy that exists amongst the reformed community, uh, that is, uh, sectarian in spirit.