June 24, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Dr. David Murray on his new book “The Happy Christian: Ten Ways to be a Joyful Believer in a Gloomy World”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday and I am so thrilled to have our guest,

David Murray, on the program today, a dear old friend who was on Iron Sharpens Iron in the past when we originally ran between 2006 and 2011.

Dr. David Murray is the professor of practical theology and at Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan, founded by the president,

Joel Beakey, who has also been a guest here on Iron Sharpens Iron many times and we look forward to having him back.

And Dr. David Murray is the author of Jesus on Every Page and Christians Get Depressed Too, the latter of which

I was personally enormously blessed by after the passing of my wife,

Julie, and it was actually given to me directly by David Murray, our guest, as a gift during those dark times.

And today we're going to be discussing Dr. Murray's latest book, The Happy Christian, Ten Ways to Be a

Joyful Believer in a Gloomy World. Welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. David Murray.

Chris, it's wonderful to be back on with you and so good to hear you back on the air again and to know how the

Lord has kept you and upheld you and brought you through a dark valley in your life. So it's just great to see

God's grace at work in you as well. Thank you so much, Brother, and as our listeners can immediately detect,

Dr. Murray is not originally from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is from Scotland.

Whereabouts in Scotland are you from originally? Well, I was born and brought up in Glasgow, which is a big city of a couple of million, and then

I was pastoring in the North West Highlands of Scotland for about 12 years.

So mainly down in the South of Scotland and then latterly in the North. And my current pastor, after I relocated to Carlisle, Pennsylvania from New York, my current pastor,

David Campbell, is a fellow native of Scotland. Do you know David? Yeah, I do actually.

I don't know him well, but I think he was at seminary with my father. My father went to seminary late in life and I think they both went to the

Free Church College in Edinburgh, if I recall. Yes, they did. Well, I know that David Murray did, yes. I mean, I'm sorry,

David Campbell did. David Campbell did, yes. I don't think, I may be wrong, but I don't think I've met

David, but he has many good things about him. He's a precious brother and a wonderful shepherd and an excellent preacher.

A soft -spoken man, but a powerful preacher. And the reason why

I find this topic fascinating today, the happy Christian, is because I'm wondering if you had a lot of Calvinists say to you, excuse me, you're writing on what?

Calvinists aren't supposed to write books called The Happy Christian. Have you had that kind of reaction?

Oh, yeah. Almost uniformly.

Well, just to put our listeners at ease who are fellow Reformed believers, this book has received high accolades from folks like Dr.

Richard Phillips, Senior Minister of Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina, who says a timely corrective to both the excesses of the prosperity gospel and the gloomy spirit that overcomes so many

Christians. Also a name that is very familiar to most Reformed Christians, Derek Thomas, the

Robert Strong Professor of Systematic and Historical Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta, Georgia, and Senior Minister of the

First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina, he writes a robust and welcome defense of how the gospel acts in the lives of those who have been transformed by it.

A great read, transforming and uplifting, and there are many others as well.

And a lot of this confusion over why on earth a

Calvinist Christian would write a book called The Happy Christian, a lot of it,

I'm sure, is a reaction, when people are puzzled by this, it's a reaction to not only the fluff and the heresy and the syrupy sweet man -centered nonsense that we hear from Christian pulpits on the television and radio constantly and also many of the best -selling books that even transcend

Christendom and are top sellers amongst unbelievers in the world that are written by Christians or so -called, are on this type of a theme, but obviously they're drawing totally different conclusions on how one is to be happy.

Take us in a contrast between, for instance, one of the founding fathers of the positive thinking movement,

Norman Vincent Peale, and his protege, Robert Shuler, and many others have mastered the power of positive thinking, theology, or ideology, or philosophy.

How would this book that you have written contrast with that? Yeah, I think you're right,

Chris. A lot of the suspicion of the idea of being a happy Christian is rooted in the abuse of it.

We've all seen so many examples of ministers and books which have totally warped the whole idea of happiness, turned it into something completely man -centered and circumstance -centered.

In other words, this is something you find within yourself and it's something that's dependent on things going well in your life.

The health, wealth, and disparity gospel, for example. So my book differs from these, and these two aspects are linked that the happiness

I'm seeking to promote is God -centered and also it is independent of circumstances.

Now, that's not to say that God does not use circumstances, of course he does at times, but it's saying that this is a kind of happiness that is not necessarily dependent on circumstances.

So, I think even in my first chapter I try to tackle that straw man and burn him to pieces, try and contrast him with what

I'm trying to put forward here. I'm just very concerned that we don't let the abuse of something good take it away from the

Christian church and instead I want to reclaim this word, happiness,

I want to refill it with biblical meaning and really help

Christians take it and enjoy it again. Yeah, well, one of the reasons why another one of the reasons why non -Calvinists would be puzzled as to why a

Calvinist would write a book for a happy Christian is because they have a completely slanderous or caricatured understanding of what

Calvinism teaches and who we are. Now, of course, we've all met gloomy, depressing, stoic, arrogant

Calvinists, but they're not all that way and the theology shouldn't produce that. In fact, as you and I well know and as all of our

Presbyterian listeners would know, the very first question in the Westminster Shorter Catechism is what is the chief end of man and the answer is a man's chief end is to glorify

God and enjoy Him forever. That seems like a remarkable statement especially the latter half of it for a

Presbyterian creed or confession, isn't it? It's amazing, isn't it?

I think we focus so much on the glorify work that we miss the enjoy work and I think it does all come back as everything does to our view of God.

Who do we think God is? What do we think God is? What is God like? And if our

Calvinism leads us to see God as some kind of cold, despotic distant robotic figure then that's what we'll be like too.

On the other hand if we see God as He is presented in the Bible as the ever -blessed

God the God who is continually joyful and happy then again

I think our theology, our view of God will ultimately percolate into our lives.

God, our view of God is just so central, so pivotal and influential and all that we do really it determines our emotional state and what we say and what we do.

And I'm going to announce our email address if you have a question for Dr. David Murray our email address is

ChrisArnzen C -H -R -I -S A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

and for the first five listeners who email a question that we read on the air you'll receive a free copy of Dr.

David Murray's new book, The Happy Christian 10 Ways to be a Joyful Believer in a

Gloomy World that will be sent to you absolutely free of charge compliments of Thomas Nelson books and also our friends at the

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service C -V -B -B -S dot com

C -V -B -B -S dot com will actually be shipping you that book so it doesn't cost

Iron Sharpens Iron a dime to ship those out and we want to thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service for helping to support the work here of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and now of course

Calvinists don't corner the market on the persona or the character of continuing non -stop anger and righteous indignation and gloom and doom of course there are many in the fundamentalist movement that have taken on identity and of course there is always a mixture of slander and caricature and unfortunately there are many instances of these things being true a gospel minister who stands behind the pulpit doesn't he need to not only give the bad news which is an absolutely essential element of the gospel to present the bad news before giving the good news but he needs to give the good news and he needs to give hope and reasons for people to have joy and with the understanding that the modern day false ecumenical gospel that is being spewed from the pulpits today the modern evangelical gospel

I should say is one where they just want to give good news without the bad news and yet no one can really appreciate how glorious and amazing and wonderful the good news is unless we hear the bad news so you have those errors on both sides don't you?

You have those that eliminate the bad news and those that eliminate the good news I think that's the balance that we're always trying to strike

I wrote Christians Get Depressed 2 I think I almost called this one Christians Can Be Happy 2 because I think we tend to fall into one or other extreme often that you can be a

Christian and be depressed or you can be a Christian and be happy in a world like this and the fact is that in the

Bible you see in the Psalmist and you see in the Apostle Paul that they combine both and that's realistic

God has given us plenty to be happy about in this world not least His truth and His salvation and yet He's also given us things to grieve us things that afflict us things that cast us down I think that's why for example the

Apostle Paul says in that beautiful passage that He is sorrowful yet always rejoicing and that's one of the reasons again

I wanted to set this book apart from the Joel Osteen type of thing because He just cannot conceive of a life that can be rejoicing if it's got any sorrow in it and as you know

Chris and as we all know we're not long in this world until we realize that there is a lot of sorrow in it and sorrow comes into our own lives and therefore we need a faith that can deal with the sorrow and compensate for the sorrow and eventually triumph over the sorrow though that may take a long time to happen and one of the major problems

I have found when I hear authors like Joel Osteen and those of his ilk being interviewed on secular television

I have never read a Joel Osteen book I'm just judging from what he has said from his pulpit and from his interviews very often these books that they tout that they've written are using earthly means unbiblical or extra -biblical and very often anti -biblical methods for a person of any religion or no religion to achieve happiness in fact the chief end of man in that sort of catechism would be to enjoy life forever and without the aspect of a glorifying

God and if you could comment on that isn't it often the case that these men who seek to tickle the ears of their listeners are often just giving proverbial language that any person of any religion or no religion who has common sense might develop yeah

I mean it's very appealing to the natural heart the idea that I could have a life that's just happy happy happy all the time time time, who doesn't want that?

so you know that's very attractive and so Joel Osteen has a congregation of 40 ,000 people but my question is is it the same 40 ,000 every year?

from what I can gather it's not it's a revolving door because yes it attracts people and you know they get totally swept along with it and then life hits them as it does in your health, in your job through your family different ways and it just doesn't ring true anymore so you either sit there and think well

I can't be a Christian or you leave and most people ultimately leave because most people ultimately find that this does not it doesn't pass the life test and therefore they give up and the sad thing is it's not like they turn to true

Christians, they think we've tried this and it's been found wanting and we do have a listener in Arlington Texas who writes, while I certainly have an intellectual assent to God's sovereignty and providence,

I've experienced some I have experienced some things hold on a second,

I have to enlarge this here, I've experienced some trials over the last three years that have placed a fog between my intellectual understanding and my practical living how can

I practically pierce the fog to fully experience the joy, that's a rather poetic way that he has expressed his question but if you could comment on Ken from Arlington Texas his question

I think that's a very common Christian experience in a way it's what we've just been talking about though in a different way, so if you're somebody that has a strong theological conviction about the sovereignty of God and then again we light it nobody's saying that the

Christian in such circumstances you're very quickly instinctively and automatically adjusts and picks himself up and off he goes again, no

I think the Psalms make it very clear that at times providence knocks over the best of us and it knocks our theology as well you have the psalmist continually wrestling with God, I thought you were like this and now

I think you're like that are you like this or are you like that so I think that the psalmist does give us the pattern though of how to begin the process of standing up again which is to be really honest with God to bring before him and say look

I used to believe this about you I believe the Bible still teaches this but it's hard for me to believe this in the light of what's happened here, here and here

I'm struggling because of this, I'm thinking this about you God knows anyway so we might as well be honest with him but what the psalmist does is he says put it out on the table just be completely up front transparent and I think it's in that kind of transparency and honesty that God begins to minister and he begins to take his truth to a deeper level in our hearts in an applied way not just in a theoretical way and again it's not saying that it's a smooth, easy all the way upwards path with no blips or dips no, it's a struggle you look at Psalm 42, you look at Psalm 43 73, 78 77 they're all, it's just it's a painful up and down and dark and light but eventually if we stay that course

God will bring us out to the right place and ultimately we end up with a better theology because it's an experiential theology not just an intellectual theology and by the way

Ken if you could please email us your mailing address because you're getting a free copy of The Happy Christian by Dr.

David Murray I apologize I didn't mention before those who are emailing us questions please include your mailing address because as I said, the first five whose questions we read on air will receive a free copy of the book and even if we don't have time to read all five questions on the air, if you're among the first five that email me, as long as they're reasonable questions we will send you off a free book and this is one of the things that makes me very unhappy Dr.

Murray, is that my eyesight is failing me which is why I could barely read the last question that my listener emailed us

I realize that I need new prescription glasses here as long as it's not your ears

Chris or my voice we do have another question from a listener in Ridgewood, Queens, New York Johnny writes the scriptures in Isaiah 58 tell us to call the

Sabbath a delight why is it that so few modern Christians delight in the

Sabbath day and how did our Puritan forefathers seek to remember it, keep it holy and delight in it and what are some practical exercises we can glean from them that will help us and our families to delight in the

Sabbath well that's interesting because you are a professor at Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary and if anybody has the stereotypical description of being dark, gloomy and joyless it's the

Puritans but that wasn't even true was it no it wasn't true it's a caricature of their very positive views of even things like sex they wrote about it, they spoke about it, they preached about it, they didn't view it as something to be embarrassed about sex in marriage of course yeah of course yeah within heterosexual marriage we have that now as well but I don't know for some reason their name has become associated with a very bleak and negative outlook on the best gifts of God I do actually touch on the

Sabbath day in my book I see it as a very important part of building happiness in life because from what

I've seen you know Chris I've had a long interest in depression and counseling people with depression, the vast majority of depressions

I am coming across in these days is caused by stress and overwork that people are just running themselves into the ground without rest on a daily basis and especially not on a weekly basis in God's provision of that one day in seven in which we cease from our works and I think eventually the body says no

I wasn't designed this way and I'm just not going to cooperate anymore, our brain does the same again she does the same and we have to recognize that this is the designer's wisdom and goodness that has given us this

I think that's where we want to start again again it comes back to our view of God and giving us the commandments do we see

God as a killjoy in doing this does he just get delight in taking away our delight if we can begin to see this as a gracious, loving, good kind gift from a good kind and loving

God then we begin to approach the day in a different way, it's not how do

I get through this but how do I get the best out of this so starting with our view of God using his means of grace as well, if we think that we're going to keep going to find delight in Sunday just by staying indoors all day and doing nothing no, we just get totally and utterly bored, but God has given us this church and we have to get out there and get amongst people and enjoy community and fellowship with one another but there are many ways to approach the

Lord's day in a positive way we probably as a family are amongst some of the strictest sabbatarians you might say and yet if you ask our children, they'll tell you they love the

Lord's day, now not all of them are not Christians, but they just love the rest, they love the quiet they love being able just to be at peace and read and sit around and chat, there's no pressure to work or study and it's just a really good family day and that's the way

I've seen it growing up of course I've seen the opposite as well where it's just very legalistic and really deadening but again

I think that it's possible to do this by approaching it with a good spirit, seeing it as the best day of the week and providing good books, good study materials, good conversation, good friendships good church we go along with God's design it will work out best for us and we have another question from a listener

Todd in Carlisle, Pennsylvania that I originally was thinking maybe

I shouldn't read this because it's not on the subject but then I said to myself what actually very much relates to the subject of happiness because, and you'll find out why in a minute

Todd in Carlisle, Pennsylvania writes, David Murray recently spoke at the

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology Conference on same -sex marriage, actually

I'm sorry it's sex and marriage what would he say is the biggest threat to biblical marriage and how should the church best combat it and that's where the same -sex part comes in because that is what is the biggest threat today it seems to traditional biblical marriage other than the sins that take place in the personal lives of married people

I'm talking about the and I'm actually not really 100 % sure which angle our listener was taken on that, but the reason why

I said that it does relate is that what you hear constantly the drumbeat of people that are in favor of same -sex marriage, people who are in favor of Bruce Jender's self -mutilation through elective surgery and hormone treatments and all these things that are going on that are an abomination in the sight of God the drumbeat that you constantly hear is if these people want to be happy and this is how they believe they're going to find true happiness and joy, why don't you just leave them alone, stop raining on their parade let them be happy in the way that they seek to be happy unless they are in some way harming another individual now

I'm going to let you think on that as we go to a station break so we can take your answer to Todd's question when we come back and of course he may have been addressing an even broader picture on marriage biblical marriage than just the what we're hearing in the news constantly about same -sex marriage but you could respond after the station break and remember if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr.

David Murray our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com and please include your mailing address so you can receive a free copy of David Murray's book.

We'll be right back after these messages I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron. If you've just tuned us in our guest today is

Dr. David Murray who is a professor of practical theology at Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

He's the author of Jesus on Every Page and Christians Get Depressed Too. Today we're discussing his latest book,

The Happy Christian, Ten Ways to Be a Joyful Believer in a Gloomy World. And where we left off before the break,

Todd in Carlisle, Pennsylvania wrote David Murray recently spoke at the Presbyterian Conference on Reform Theology on Sex and Marriage.

What would he say is the biggest threat to biblical marriage and how should the church best combat it?

And I was just saying that it relates, I believe, because very often the root of sin is individuals seeking happiness in an unbiblical manner.

And that isn't only related to homosexual marriage so -called, but even in heterosexual

Christian marriages there is sin and there is divorce and there is anguish and depression and fighting and separation because of people seeking happiness above all else in an unbiblical way.

Now if you could respond to what Todd asked and what I commented on. Yeah.

I think there are a number of ways to approach that question. Obviously the cultural redefinition of marriage is a terrible danger to marriage.

Not perhaps so much for those of us who have been married and are a bit older, but for those coming into it,

I don't think we should underestimate the impact of cultural redefinition of marriage upon our children and how they will be viewing that even if they've been brought up in Christian homes.

But I think you also made a good point, Chris, that in some ways the greatest threat to Christian marriages are

Christians with terrible marriages who are the worst adverts for Christian biblical marriage.

And that's an area where we can take responsibility for. We don't need the Supreme Court to change that.

That takes personal repentance. And I do of course, marriage is such a vital and central part to so many people's lives.

If that's wrong, then our lives are not going to be happy. That's why in the book I do address marriage in one chapter.

Especially looking at the verse it's more blessed to give than to receive. A lot of people are going into marriage with, you know, what can

I get out of this? Mainly looking for happiness, of course. That's okay to a degree, but the general biblical presentation of marriage is that we have to approach with this question, not what can

I get but what can I give. And that is strangely the key to happiness.

It seems counterintuitive. We think surely the more I get, the happier I'll be. But Jesus says, no, the more you give, the happier you'll be.

It's more blessed to give than to receive. That's not just speaking about giving money. It's giving in service.

Giving in marriage as well. And I think we have to, of course, use the biblical data.

Make the argument based on that case. I think we also need to use science. I refer to science quite a bit in the book.

And what's remarkable in all the scientific research into happiness is how much it's confirming the biblical view, the biblical view of happiness, which we shouldn't be surprised about.

True science will always support the truth of God. It will always be consistent with it.

But you take that whole area of homosexual marriage. This is data and information that the media are just desperate to prevent getting out.

But the actual stats and the research into homosexual lifestyles and the physical, the emotional, the psychological impact of a homosexual lifestyle is horrendous.

In fact, so desperate are they to keep the lid on this. I don't know if you saw this, Chris, but Boston Hospital, which is

Harvard affiliated, recently expelled a senior physician for voicing concerns about the medical impact of homosexual behavior.

And it was all researched, scientifically supported, and yet this is one area of science nobody is allowed to talk about, to mention, to highlight.

And this guy, I don't know if he's a Christian or not, but he's basically saying, you're not doing people any favors. You're not helping people be happy at all by hiding this kind of information.

So I think we too can appeal to science that's biblical, that's consistent with the scriptures, and also use that as a way of arguing with people, even in your own self -interest, this is a disastrous course to go down.

Yes, we will never find true, lasting happiness if we violate God's law and His commands and His will for our lives, will we?

I mean, we may have momentary happiness while sin, in some way, deceives us into believing that we are happy for a brief period of time.

But it doesn't really give lasting joy, does it? No. It's very clear that the commandments are set forth in Scripture as a gift of God and as a way to blessedness.

Israel were viewed as the most blessed nation, the most happy nation, because they've been given such laws.

And you look at Psalm 1, blessed is the man whose life is based upon the word and law of God.

And you look at Jesus Christ, who kept the law perfectly, He was the blessed man.

So, again, it's an act of faith. It goes against our flesh, it goes against what the devil whispers in our ears, it goes against what the culture presents in the media and in its films, that there's another way, completely opposite way, that ultimately ends in everyone happy ever after.

No. The Bible says that there's only one way to true happiness in time and eternity.

And it's the way of holiness. We have an anonymous listener who writes to us from Georgia who wants to know, is it ever within the will of God for a

Christian who is plagued with depression to take medication?

And he also adds that other Christians have rebuked him and basically are telling him that he is not relying on the goodness and grace of God, that his problems are all based in sin in some way, even if he doesn't recognize what the sin is, and that the medication is wrong for him to be taking.

So, if you could comment on that. Yeah, the first thing I usually say to such people is, show me your medicine cabinet.

Because the people who say that you shouldn't take medication ever for mental illness are usually pouring medication down their throats and injecting in different ways for all sorts of ailments.

Are they not trusting in God? I think it's terrible ignorance, really, of humanity as God created it, and of medical science, and of the

Bible. You know, it betrays a lack of understanding of the fallenness of humanity.

You know, every single part of our body has fallen in the fall of Adam and Eve, including our brain, the most complicated organ in our whole body.

Are we really saying that, yes, our pancreas, and our hearts, and our lungs, and our skin, and our fear have fallen, but no,

I mean, our brains are perfect. No, not at all. The brain is such a complex organ, in fact, there's even more fallen, you might say, or more messed up.

So, we can expect the brain to have problems with damage to it, with malfunction, with too much and too little electricity, too much and too little of certain chemicals, and that will ultimately have impact on our thinking and our feeling.

So, I think this is all based, a view of refusing medication is based on a false view of fallen humanity, and I view medication as a wonderful gift of God to a fallen race that, yes, people often run to too quickly and rely on too independently of God and other means, but I have seen it used time and again when it's taken for the right reasons, it's taken in the right way, it's taken in conjunction with things like improved exercise, improved diet, improved sleep, improved social life.

Never seen medication help anyone when that's all that's taken, but when, again, viewing man in a holistic way and putting in place all the basics of what builds humanity, yes, medication has a part to play and God has frequently blessed it to the recovery of people, and I would view it as far less a rejection of God, but a relying upon God and an acting in faith upon means that He has provided.

Now, don't you think, having said what you said, giving hearty approval to people taking appropriate medication, don't you think that we are living in a day and age when psychologists or psychiatrists or both are, or doctors, general practitioners, are having medicine prescribed to children especially, but also adults in too far of a rampant way where as soon as somebody says,

I'm depressed, the immediate thing they do is get out a prescription pad. Don't you think that it can be also harmful?

We even see the commercials sometimes about the side effects of these things and people having suicidal reaction at times.

Right. Couple of things there. Yes, medication is grossly over prescribed and people run to it too quickly and people rely on it without putting other things right in their lives that may be wrong.

But again, it goes back to what we were talking about, happiness as well. Abuse of something does not mean that we should never use or take something.

So, it's never a first resort. It's never the only resort and it's got to be done in a careful way.

On the other side of things, yes, there are side effects sometimes for some people who take it.

That can be alleviated by trying something different. It's not an exact science.

This science is still very much in the early stage. But you've also got to think of the side effects of not taking it.

And I've seen this time and again that people refuse to take it but there are side effects not just for themselves but for their whole families.

A knock -on effect and maybe not just for themselves but their families suffer for many years as well through their incapacity and inability to do basic things of life.

And sometimes it's just sheer pride that will not allow people to accept this help as given by God.

And so, yet at times, again, it would appear that they are.

Some of these drugs are implicated in some terrible deeds. But again, you've got to ask, what is the chicken and what's the egg?

The people who are prescribed these drugs, especially in extreme mental states of distress, were they going to do that anyway?

Just because there's correlation does not mean there's causation. Again, I think it takes a lot of care, a lot of pastoring, a lot of counselling, a lot of patience but also it can be a legitimate option for people.

Yes, and then I think, wouldn't you agree, it would be a great idea for people if they're seeing a psychologist, a psychiatrist, or if they're being prescribed a medication to ask brothers and sisters in Christ they trust if they know anybody who's been on this certain kind of medication and what the side effects have been and all that kind of thing, in addition to a medical professional advice which can sometimes just be as misleading as anything else, brothers in Christ who have experienced the prescription and so on.

No, that's well put, Chris. I always try to approach these things in a team kind of way.

I think a pastor should always be involved, a Christian counsellor perhaps, a doctor, a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and working together

I encourage my students that wherever they end up in their ministries, that one of the first things you should do is build a team.

Get to know the best, the most reliable, ideally Christian practitioners in these areas so that when these problems arise they can approach this in a holistic way, that spiritual problems are dealt with spiritually, physical problems are dealt with physically, psychological problems are dealt with cognitively, and so on.

We have to go to one final station break. If you'd like to email us a question for Dr. Murray, please do it now because we're running out of time.

We've got about less than 15 minutes left. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. We'll be right back after these messages, so don't go away.

Introducing 1031 Sermon Jams. But now for the good news that sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears, especially if you're like me and you know that you don't need

Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are. If you'd like to learn more about 1031

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It's about God and His glory and the Gospel is about... Linbrook Baptist Church on 225

Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the Gospel is clear and relevant.

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

that's linbrookbaptist .org Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen and if you've just tuned us in, our guest today has been

Dr. David Murray of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

We're discussing his book The Happy Christian, Ten Ways to Be a Joyful Believer in a

Gloomy World and we do have another listener who has written us a question. Brian in Toronto, Canada and I believe

I see where he's relating this to happiness. He says, Absolutely everything happens for some divine reason.

On one hand, it's emotionally difficult to understand for some that God has not lost control in relationship to all kinds of horrific evil that takes place on this planet.

But what about all this evil? On the other hand, it's emotionally encouraging to understand no oops,

O -O -P -S exists in the almighty. And that was an interesting way of phrasing it.

I have a pastor friend, Josh Fryman in Riverhead, Long Island, who uses the phrase, there's no bloopers in the

Bible. Isn't that a source of comfort, joy, peace and happiness to know that whatever is happening on this planet, that God is in control and he has a reason for it?

Yeah, I think it was John MacArthur, I think, who said about the implications of not believing in the sovereignty of God, that he just could not conceive of how anyone could possibly be happy if he did not believe in the sovereignty of God.

And I think it's logical, but also I think something we experience as well.

You know, when things go wrong in our lives, if it's just chance, fate, bad luck, then

I'm miserable. But if I believe that God has not only ordered this, but has promised to turn it out for my good, then

I have a basis to fight for joy in that scenario. And I think no doubt, being in that battle yourself for months and even years, as you come to terms with your own great loss, you know, what misery unless you believe that this is part of the perfect plan of God.

Amen. Yes, and thanks to Brian in Toronto, Canada for that question, or actually comment that related to the topic for today.

The one thing that I have said before on this program, and I've said to others in relationship to what you just said, isn't it amazing, and this shows just the common grace of God, in my opinion, that isn't it amazing that those who reject

God's sovereignty over all earthly events or all events anywhere in Heaven or on Earth or anywhere in the

Universe, those that reject that, that He is in total sovereign control over all things, they still walk away from a funeral of a beloved one that has perished in their sin with no evidence of being a

Christian. And these Christians who reject Calvinism or Reformed theology will most often, with some exception, will most often eventually come to some semblance of peace and tranquility and calm and acceptance over this death.

But that is really inconsistent with their theology, isn't it? Because if they had only witnessed, evangelized to that person one more time, that person could have been saved.

If they had only been more loving or more articulate or more humble when they evangelized, that person could have been saved.

And you could go on and on and on with scenarios, but those who believe in the sovereignty of God need not torture ourselves with that.

And it's proof that these people aren't really, for the most part, torturing themselves either, because by God's grace they're being inconsistent, aren't they?

Yeah, I didn't quite catch all of that because your voice was breaking up a bit.

Oh, I'm sorry about that. Basically what I mean is, is there any logical reason why an Arminian can have a sleepful, restful, peaceful night's sleep when loved ones die lost?

They do very often, eventually, because they're really being inconsistent with their rejection of God's control over all things, aren't they?

No, that's right. Yeah, I think it's a blessed inconsistency if I may say that.

Because, again, without that inconsistency, you're left in a desperate situation where you're entirely responsible, and therefore to blame for your loved ones going to a lost eternity.

Whereas you bring this under the sovereignty of God, and you find a resting place.

And if you could, we have less than seven minutes left.

I really want you to unburden your heart with what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners when they leave this program.

Yeah, I think the key thing that I've discovered in all my research into happiness is that this is something you have to work at.

It doesn't land in our laps. You don't become happy just sitting there waiting for God to inject joy into your life.

When you look in the Bible at the greatest saints of God, they had to battle for this.

But God has provided means. So you see that in the Psalmist, you see it in Job, you see it in Elijah, you see it in Jeremiah, how

God's people are fighting for joy. The book

I wrote is Ten Ways to be a Joyful Believer in a Gloomy World. There are more than ten. I thought these were ten that were low -hanging fruit.

But it does say, Luke, you've got to get after this. And there's nothing wrong with going after it.

God is calling us to this. Rejoice in the Lord as a command.

Again, it doesn't get obeyed by just sitting there trying to be joyful.

He's provided means and ways and methods. And it's not something either that you reach and then you can coast with it.

No, this is lifelong, because the pains and the sufferings that come into our life are lifelong.

And we're just in continual need of finding what will balance and even overcome the sorrows in our lives.

So, I think that's what I would want to say to people. Be God -centered in your pursuit of happiness, but pursue it and use the means

He has provided. And, of course, going back to something we said earlier, our personal happiness is not to be the all -in -all of why we exist, is it?

No, obviously, like everything, it can become an idol. Again, I think that's one of the reasons why many

Christians don't want to admit to trying to be happy or don't pursue happiness, because they think that's an idol.

Now, it can be, but it need not be. And I think we miss out so much when we miss out on happiness.

You look at Nehemiah, he said, the joy of the Lord is your strength. And I think that's one of the fascinating things that the science of happiness that has been published on much in the last 10 -15 years, how much happiness is a strengthener of people.

Their physical health improves, their emotional health, obviously, even their exam performance, their job performance, their friendships, their ministries, their church membership.

It's just amazing the evidence for the strengthening impact of joy.

And, you know, we're as Christians, we're entering a time where we're going to come under increasing persecution, we're going to feel weaker and weaker, and we're going to need to seek out ways to strengthen ourselves, to stand, even just to stand, never mind go forward.

And joy is the primary way that God uses to strengthen us, to stand and contend for the faith.

Now, the words in the Scriptures count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, and other scriptural commands, even, that we rejoice in the midst of suffering.

Don't you think that there are many Christians that abuse those texts and begin to judge their brethren who, after suffering a horrific or tragic loss, after a insufficient period of time, start laying into the person a guilt trip.

But why on earth are you still gloomy and depressed over this? You've really got to snap out of it. And I know that I've even been on the personal end of that kind of counsel, which is reminiscent of Job's friends, which were no friends at all.

But isn't that something that, unfortunately, is all too frequent, where people put an unbiblical timetable on the length of time somebody is supposed to be grieving the loss of a loved one, or mourning over some other tragedy in their life?

Yeah, as you know, Chris, usually the people who say these things are people who know nothing yet about the person's suffering, so I think you have to be patient.

They will learn, and sadly, they will learn the hard way. But at times we do need a prod, and a push, and a challenge, but when you look in the

Word, you see a very patient God who allows people to grieve, who grieved himself when he was here on earth, who wept, and it's part of the healing process.

There's much to be learned in the Valley of Grief. I think there can be joy even in the

Valley of Grief, without the sorrow being cancelled out.

There can be moments when we experience the nearness of God in very, very special ways, but I think that the key thing is really to get our timetable from God, and it may be that he wants us to be in that valley for longer than people would like us to be there.

And yet also, we have to be aware that we could be just wallowing in it as well, and it's just a very hard balance to strike.

Yes. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Dr. David Murray. I really eagerly want you back on the program soon.

In fact, we can even continue this topic. The book can be investigated at happychristian .net

happychristian .net is the website where you can learn more about this book, The Happy Christian, by Dr. David Murray.

I want to thank all of our listeners from all over the United States and Canada who wrote in today with questions, and I want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. God bless, and thanks a lot, Dr. Murray, for being with us today.