Ex-Mormon and Mormon High Priest get into a Spirited Conversation

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morning sir how are you good we're

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Christians from a local church we're just here trying to get into friendly conversations with our

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LDS neighbors yeah how are you today good good

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Oh state conference oh so it was before your sacrament meeting oh so at 9 a .m.

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will be a stake a center meeting oh at 10 oh so no one's gonna be here at 9 a .m.

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then huh until 10 yeah yeah okay well yeah we were wondering normally the cars would fill up a little bit by now if if the meeting was at 9 so okay yeah can

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I give you a track would you like to take one okay oh okay yeah yeah yeah how long have you been

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LDS all your life oh okay were you you've always lived here okay yeah hmm

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I'm sure there'll be corrections as we get more information okay For now,

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I haven't. I'm step by step. I just started with myself and recorded my parents' information and all that.

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Oh wow. You already know about that, probably. So anyway... Like those ancestry website sort of things?

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Yeah. First, I obtained all I could from my own parents. Sure. I was blessed because they had kept their own books of remembrance.

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Really? And they'd filled out their family group sheets with their parents and siblings and so forth.

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Yeah. And so, I rewrote, reprinted in India Inc.

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Back then, we didn't have computers or anything like that. Or I didn't even have a typewriter.

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So, I tediously printed in India Inc.

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my first family group records and sheets and pedigree chart, of course. And then,

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I just gradually, you know, I went to my four grandparents and obtained their information and put it in my...

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Sure, sure. Yeah. And then, later on, after I had everything from my own immediate family,

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I was blessed to have the church information. Yeah.

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So, I linked into that. Yeah. And eventually, it went all the way back. Oh wow. On that, on my main line, on my mother's main line,

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I still don't have it very far. It's only in the, what, 1700s is all. That's actually really good.

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I filled out one of those and we can't get really further back than the late 1800s.

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I'm like 85 % British, Welsh, Scottish, and Irish. Just those islands up there.

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Yeah, we're just right there. Yeah. Because we have all those too. Yeah. So, somewhere, we have a common ancestral line, you know.

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Potentially, yeah. We're all related. So, let me ask you though. You mentioned your testimony and the prophet

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Joseph Smith. Have you ever considered some of the prophecies that he gave that did not come true?

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That are demonstrably false? Does that concern you at all? That God would say, when

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God says in Deuteronomy 13 and 18, and he gives a test of a prophet, he says, if a prophet speaks presumptuously in my name, if he either, one, leads you after other gods, or number two, he says something will occur, but it does not come to pass, then he is, you know, a false prophet.

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And so, there's a list. I'm sure there's even some on LDS .org where you could see false prophecies.

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And according to God's standard of the Bible, you are not to fear him anymore. You are not to observe

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Joseph Smith's teachings at that point. So, what do you say to that, sir? I say that I stand on what

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I have felt from the Holy Spirit. And I witness very strongly that Joseph is a prophet.

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And I rely on that more than I rely on the written word. Okay, so you're feeling...

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I believe more than the Doctrine and Covenants oral prologue, Craig Price. Because the living prophet, President Nelson, is more important than all of them.

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Like, the living prophet Noah was more important than any scriptures they had earlier in his day.

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And the people didn't believe him, and they were destroyed because of it. The people in Enoch's day, you know, they had scriptures, too, from the earlier prophets.

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But he was sent to the people at his time period. And those who accepted his words were saved from spiritual destruction.

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So, there's that to consider. So, a succession of prophets, those who supersede the ones previously, they're at a more important time now than the ones prior, in a way?

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Yes. So, if God says in Malachi, I am the Lord, I do not change, and it says

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Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever... Same thing in the Book of Mormon. So, why would a modern -day prophet...

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God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Okay, so why would a modern -day prophet contradict what a previous prophet said?

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If God... A modern -day prophet doesn't contradict it. If you study it very carefully, you'll see that Joseph Smith always bore testimony of God the

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Father, his son Jesus. In fact, he said, I saw God and Jesus Christ standing on his right hand.

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What more of a testimony can you give? Oh, I mean something like this, sir. Like, they receive revelation of, you know, blacks were not allowed in the priesthood, and then in the mid -1900s, they were allowed in the priesthood by revelation of the prophet.

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Then you have things like, we certainly see... We've even talked to some Latter -day

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Saints who are homosexual, and they're openly homosexual in their ward, and then their bishop even approves of it.

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So, I'm almost wondering if we're going to see a full -on approval and maybe a revelation from the prophet saying that now homosexuals and transgenders can become bishops, they can be in leadership, which is obviously contrary to the

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Book of Mormon and the Bible, right? Homosexuality is a sin. So, why are these things changing over time with the culture, you know?

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Well, you see from the very beginning that the full organization of the

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Church, as we have today, wasn't revealed all at once. It was a progressive...

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what's the word for it? Progressive thing.

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The Lord didn't stop revelation just with the prophet Joseph.

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He continued with President Brigham Young. Well, it seems like a regression.

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God says homosexuality is wrong, and now all Latter -day Saints are saying homosexuality is something to celebrate.

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So, that seems like a regression with all due respect. All Latter -day Saints aren't saying it's something to celebrate.

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I myself am not saying that. So, you would disagree with BYU and all that they're doing in trying to get homosexuality to be at an acceptable level in the

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Church, not something to be repented of. Well, I believe what the

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President of the Church and the Quorum of the Twelve have said. They said we should treat them as fellow brothers and sisters of God.

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That's what they are. We're all spirit children of God, and we shouldn't be prejudiced against them or anybody else.

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Sure, we should not hate them. On the other hand, we don't sacrifice what we do know from God, His commands, to satisfy the social pressures of our day.

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That's wise. Yeah, well understood. And so, it's kind of a, you know, we accept them as our brothers and sisters, but we do not accept the practices of them that go against God's laws.

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Okay, yeah. We still have the law, what's known as the law of chastity, which is we shall have neither women of God or men of God shall have any sexual relations with anyone, any sexual relations with anyone except those, they are, we are legally and lawfully married according to God's law.

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See, it's not man's law, it's God's law. So there's a very specific direction, and that is accepted by all faithful members of the

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Church today. Okay, I appreciate that explanation. Taking that same standard, though, and saying we won't go, we won't abide by the social pressures of today, what about when the government, the

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U .S. government, was putting pressure on the LDS Church to stop practices of polygamy?

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And then all of a sudden a revelation came, and it's something that isn't required to enjoy the celestial kingdom.

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There's quotes from prophets, including Brigham Young, who said, you must have plural marriage to be in the celestial kingdom.

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You have to be. It's completely emphatic and indefinite. You must have this to be saved.

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In his day, yeah. So did they cripple against the pressure?

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We believe in a rock of revelation, you know. Christ's Church is built on revelation. Without revelation, there is no

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Christ's Church, as far as we're concerned. So part of the revelation, yes, the revelation did come, but before that, it was, and not all were required to enter it.

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Only those who were capable of supporting more than one wife and their children were allowed to practice it.

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And the reason it was given, I believe, in the first place in this dispensation was because the church was so small that it needed to be enlarged fairly quickly, and it was.

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And then later the revelation came, okay, there will be no more plural marriage. None was practiced after that time.

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They even tore down the endowment house, not because there had been more, but because there were rumors that there were more.

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So they didn't even want to give rumors any room for speculation.

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I see, yeah. There are a lot of things I do not know. Okay. However, I do know the basics.

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The basics are that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is the

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Word of God. President Nelson is a prophet today, a living prophet. And he's still receiving revelations even now.

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And we've seen that in the last, just the last couple years. Before the

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COVID -19 came about, he was, through the Lord's direction, already preparing the church for this time period when we wouldn't be able to come.

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You know, there was several months there that we weren't even allowed to come together.

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Oh, wow. Church meeting houses. Maybe China sent them a letter beforehand. I'm just kidding.

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You see, the Lord knew that, the Lord knows everything. He revealed to President Nelson that they should, we should be, it should be a home -centered church with a church -supported, family -centered church.

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Home -centered and then the church -supported. So that's a change. That wasn't in the beginning of the restoration.

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So that, yeah, there are changes. Revelation is continuous. Doesn't it seem, though, let me ask you real quick.

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Then you can see what you say. That's part of God being the same yesterday, today, and forever. He's always had living prophets.

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But what about objective truth? What you're describing seems very subjective.

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How do you know in a year or two, it's not like the whole fabric of what you understand today is not going to be completely changed?

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Because God has given us his word, and we understand that to be solid, objective truth. Unchanging.

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It was valid 3 ,000 years ago, 2 ,000 years ago, 1 ,000.

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God's word is objective today. It is truth. It doesn't change.

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The cultures change. The people change. But God's word doesn't change. And yet, somehow, with more revelation, it does change.

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But the doctrines, the basic doctrines do not change. God will be God forever. Christ will be

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Christ forever. The Spirit will be the Spirit forever. And the Savior's church will be basically, you know, it will until, of course, the

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Savior himself comes. And even then, I don't know. But there is a living prophet.

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He organized the church himself. You know that from the New Testament and the Old World. He organized the church.

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He himself was the chief cornerstone, just like he is today. And he had a quorum of the 12 apostles,

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Peter, James, John, and all the others. And we have a quorum of living apostles today.

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What other church on the earth today has 12 living apostles that have been ordained by those having authority of Christ?

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I don't know of any other church that even claims that, let alone says that. Well, because the office of apostle has ceased, you know.

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No, it hasn't. I would disagree. I think the Bible shows us it has.

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Well, I would disagree with you because there is no place that I know of in the Bible where it says that the apostleship should cease.

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It was because of the wickedness of the people. They killed Christ's apostles because they taught the same thing that Christ taught.

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Have these apostles seen the risen Christ? Isn't that right?

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Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't catch you. Christ taught and his apostles taught the same thing.

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Oh, yeah. Christ was crucified. His apostles were killed in different ways.

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Peter was crucified upside down. He felt unworthy to be crucified the same way as the Savior.

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Others were killed, all except for... John. John the Revelator.

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And he was taken out of the ministry because of the wickedness of the people. That left Christ's church then not because God wanted it to, but because people have their agency and they chose to kill

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Christ and to kill his apostles. And they were the foundation of Christ's church.

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The New Testament is replete with that. And so when you take a foundation out from, say, that house, there's nothing to support it.

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What's going to happen to that house? The foundation is the word of God, though. It's not living apostles. They've never seen the risen

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Christ. They're not apostles. How do you know that? That's the definition of what an apostle is according to the

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Bible, is you have to have seen the risen Christ. One of my questions for you...

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I don't think you can say that they haven't seen the Christ. So that's a subjective thing.

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No, it isn't. Because I could say I see this tree, and this tree is Jesus Christ, and they can hear the risen

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Christ. You can know all things through the Holy Spirit. But my question to you is this. You're talking about the word. So Hebrews 1, 1, and 2 actually says, in the past, which you talked about,

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Noah, in the past we spoke through the prophets. Because the idea of a prophet was to actually tell of the coming

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Messiah. And he says, now, in the last days, I speak through the Son. And what's another name for the

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Son? We know in John that he is the Word. So we're speaking through the Word. But he says, in the past we spoke through prophets.

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Now we speak through the Son. Also, he is the Messiah. He is the King of kings.

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But he's also our only high priest, as it says in Hebrews. It says everybody else... And that was written by past prophets.

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You're relying on their word. That wasn't a prophet. We have a living prophet today, sir. And I challenge you, in the name of Jesus Christ, to ask the

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Father in the name of Christ. If Joseph Smith is a prophet... Can I explain where I came from? If you do that sincerely, with real intent,

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I witness to you that you will receive an answer by the Holy Spirit.

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That he is. Not to play games here. That is not a game. That is a promise.

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Are you willing to humble yourself before the Lord and ask him, Is Joseph Smith a prophet?

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I know your theology better than you do. Are you willing to do that, sir? I already have. Are you willing to pray and ask?

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Are you willing to listen to the word of God? I have, and I am. Because that is the truth.

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We have living prophets today. But that's not what the word of God says. Hebrews tells us there's no more prophets.

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It says it's done. That's what the word of God says. You're contradicting it. That's your interpretation.

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It's not an interpretation. I don't believe that it says... Show me in Hebrews where it says that. I will show you.

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Hands down, I have no problems with this. And was that before or after the apostles were killed?

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The apostles weren't prophets. They were apostles. That's a different context. They were prophets. They prophesied that Christ would return.

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What do you mean they weren't prophets? You've read the scriptures, but you don't understand them.

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Read one and two. That's King James Version. That's the version you use. Oh, whoops.

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Did it go out? Here it is right here. Okay. This is the

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King James Version. Yep. Okay. God. Okay.

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And we know that that means the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Who at sundry times, different times, and in different manners, spoke or spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his

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Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

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We agree totally with that. Yeah. He's the final prophet. In these last days, he speaks through his

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Son. It doesn't say that. It doesn't say he's the final prophet. It says he is.

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In Hebrews 11, it actually says that he is the final high priest. It says that everybody who died lost their title, so therefore

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Peter, James, and John couldn't have restored the Melchizedek priesthood to Joseph Smith because they would have lost their title.

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That's in Hebrews 11. It shows us in the New Testament that Peter, James, and John were ordained by Jesus Christ.

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Right, but it says they lose their title when they die. The reason that Jesus is our final high priest is he rose again.

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He did not die. He's the only one in the order of Melchizedek priesthood, Jesus Christ. Okay, but when

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Jesus Christ, who has the Melchizedek priesthood, has ordained just because of death, we know that Jesus Christ ordained them to the priesthood.

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There's no record that he unordained them that I know of in the New Testament. We don't need priests anymore because Christ, as the priest, gave the final...

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Well, he gave the final sacrifice. It says he sat down once for all. But he didn't do away with his apostles.

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There's no record that he did away with what he established. It was the wickedness of the people that did away with it.

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Well, why did we need priests? We needed priests to carry out the temple processes and to sacrifice animals for atonement of sin.

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Jesus Christ gave the final sacrifice. Yes. As the high priest, he sat down.

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It was completed. We don't need any more priests to do sacrifices. You guys don't do sacrifices because Christ did the final one.

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So what do we need priests for? The Bible says in Peter's epistle that we are a holy nation, a royal priesthood.

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But it's talking about all believers as the church of God, as the body of Christ. It's not talking that we're actually in the office of priests and Levites, if that makes sense.

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Well, that's your interpretation. I don't believe that. I believe that Christ had a real organization, that different officers are named in the

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New Testament. And I believe it was the wickedness of the people that killed him and his apostles.

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That was the church was taken. I believe in the apostasy that the falling away that was prophesied by the apostles of Christ actually occurred.

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There was no church of Jesus Christ on the earth for hundreds of years after the apostles were killed.

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He actually told Peter, he's like, upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell will never prevail. So Jesus said they will never prevail.

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So if there was an apostasy, the gates of hell would have prevailed. So what do you say to that?

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Because he said they will never prevail. There's been a faithful remnant this whole time, even during the

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Roman church. But they didn't have the priesthood. Because the priesthood is over. Christ fulfilled it.

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No, because the priesthood was taken from the earth because of the apostasy of the people. The people fell away from the church. That's what they teach.

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That's not what the Bible teaches. That's not what the Bible says. Yes, it does. Chapter and verse. I don't have all.

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I used to have those lots of different scriptures memorized, but I can't quote you.

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But I know it's in the New Testament, in all the different books, that falling away was prophesied, and it did come to pass.

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That's what I'm asking for, is a chapter and verse. Because what Jesus actually said in the

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Red Letter Bible, read, in the New Testament, I know he had an organization. He had apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

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We know that because it's in the New Testament. You can read it in your New Testament. I shouldn't have to tell you that.

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He had an organization, and the organization functioned. The organization failed after John was taken out of the ministry, and the rest were killed by the people.

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The people were wicked. They killed Christ, they killed his apostles, and they persecuted and killed his followers.

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And I'm not going to say that. That's history. In the end, sir, the reason we're here is, we appreciate, actually, your time, but we want you to know the true

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Christ of Scripture, the one that can actually save. I know the true Christ of Scripture. It says in 2 Corinthians 11, verse 4, that many will come with a different gospel, a different Christ.

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There's nothing in the church of Jesus Christ, of Latter -day Saints, that contradicts anything, any prior truth.

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They have a created Jesus, not the uncreated eternal God Jesus. They have a Jesus who was made in the preexistence.

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That Jesus of the Mormon church cannot die and propitiate for sins. He's just an elevated man.

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You need the God -man, Jesus Christ, who has been God from all eternity, to die upon that cross. You have a different Jesus, a different gospel, a gospel of works.

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If you'll let me talk. The way of looking at it is this. See this tree? Look at this tree, just for a second.

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See the tree? I do. Okay, can I worship the tree? Free country, right? I can worship the tree? Correct.

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But if I called that tree Jesus Christ, does that make me a Christian? If I called this tree

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Jesus Christ and said, I'm a Christian because I worship Jesus Christ, does that make me a Christian? No. That's what we're talking about, sir.

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The creation, what the Bible talks about and who Jesus Christ was, he created everything. He created everything invisible and visible.

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No, because you don't believe he created Lucifer. You believe that Lucifer is his brother. Don't tell me what I believe. I'm telling you I do believe that.

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Then is Lucifer and Jesus brothers? Don't call me a liar when I'm not. Are Lucifer and Jesus brothers? That's all I'm asking.

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Yes or no? I believe that Jesus Christ created the heavens and the earth. Right, but are Lucifer and Jesus brothers?

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Yes or no? Before, and he existed before this earth was even created.

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Right, was Lucifer and Jesus brothers? Yes or no? They were spirit brothers, but Lucifer, whom we call

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Satan, Satan was actually an angel. Rebelled against God and was cast out to this earth, as you know.

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That's what we're saying. Lucifer was not a spirit brother. He was an angel who was created by Jesus who rebelled.

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He's a creature. He's a creature, not a brother. A creature? Yeah. He's an angel. The creator created angels, and he created

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Lucifer. So Jesus is the creator, so he created Lucifer.

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No, Jesus didn't create Lucifer. Well, you just agreed that he created all things. He didn't have a father or Lucifer as a spirit.

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Lucifer was originally a faithful spirit in heaven, believe it or not.

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He was high up. He offered to come to the earth to save all of us, but he would not give us a choice.

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He would force us to do what was right, and we'd all come back.

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The problem with that theory is that it's false. It doesn't work. You can't force anybody, any of God's children, to do what you want them to do, and that would eliminate a key component of the plan of happiness, which is giving us, our agency, the right to choose what we want.

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So are you saying that, so God being the creator, Jesus being the creator, can man thwart his plans?

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Can man surprise God? So if God wants something to happen, can man surprise him?

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No, God knows everything. So are you saying, if he can't surprise, then where's the choice?

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We still have our choice. God gives us... But if he already knows what you're going to pick, where's the choice?

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He knows what... Because we lived with him before this life, he knows us really well.

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That's true. But he still wants us to grow, to become like himself.

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And to do that, we need to have the ability to choose one way or another way.

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So the creature can thwart the creator? No. In this situation, creation can thwart him. The creator wants us to have agency so that we can develop.

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It's a process. If we didn't need to develop, we wouldn't have to come here at all.

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Is it true agency, though, sir? We'd automatically become like him. If he knows what you're going to pick, is it true agency? It's a law of progression, is what we call it.

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Right, and Isaiah 43 .10 says that there was no God's form before me, neither shall there be after me. So, again, it's a direct contradiction.

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The law of progression is a direct contradiction to the word of God. If there's no God's before, neither shall there be after.

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The only time that that law was put into place was Joseph Smith in the King Paul discourse when he said, I'll pull back the veil and show you that God wasn't always

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God and that you can become God one day. It directly refutes in Isaiah 44 .6,

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which says there's no God's. Do I know any gods around me? I know not one. Isaiah 43 .10 says there's no gods before me, neither shall there be after me.

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Apparently, you're taking that out of context. So, the context of this isn't the problem. The problem is it refutes what your theology is.

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And if I talk to any LDS person, unfortunately, those are the mistranslated verses. He used to be

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LDS. I used to be LDS for over 30 years, sir. I had two state callings when I resigned. Have you read the

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Book of Mormon? I've met Elder Uchtdorf, and he actually gave me the stamp of approval to teach Mormon doctrine because he sat in one of my classes.

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Don't tell me what I don't know. I did pray. I got a no. And if that doesn't scare you, that should.

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I did pray, and I got a yes. So, who's right, you or me? The Word of God. Well, then go to the objective standard, which is the

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Word of God. And when your yes refutes the Word of God, we have to go with the Word of God.

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My yes includes a living prophet of God that accepts all of the basic truths, including

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Christ's organization. Isaiah 43 .10 says no gods. Do you tell me who's right and who's wrong?

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Me. Because the Bible, my objective standard is the Bible. Isaiah 55 .8 and 9. What does it say?

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We can pull it out. You might be quicker.

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Yeah. Because I don't have to flip pages. I can just click. Well, here's Isaiah 55.

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For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

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So are you not relying on your thoughts, though? You say it's from the Spirit, but do you know it is?

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I know it is. Absolutely. How? Did you test the Spirit? Without a doubt. How? 1

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John says to test the Spirit. Did you test the Spirit that you felt? I did.

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I know definitely that Joseph Smith was a prophet. There's no doubt in my mind about it. There's no doubt that the

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Book of Mormon is the Word of God. Why? Because all that's good comes of Christ.

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Any Christian will believe that, and I believe that for sure. And anything that doesn't lead you to the living

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Christ, you know, that's where the ways part.

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Well, again, I would say 2 Corinthians 11 verse 4 says, Some will come preaching a different gospel, it says a different Jesus, and have a different spirit.

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It was given in context by an ordained apostle of Jesus Christ.

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So he said many will come with a different gospel. To those people at that time period. That many did come. They were teaching other doctrines,

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Hellenism and all sorts of stuff too, besides. And many were deceived.

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So that truth isn't for today? And that apostasy occurred, the falling away occurred. That's why the restoration was necessary.

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So the gates of hell prevailed, even though Jesus said they wouldn't? The priesthood was no longer on the earth. Sure, the other churches began, the

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Catholic and later the Protestant churches. But what I'm asking is, when Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail.

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Against the true church. Only Jesus Christ can give the priesthood. So why didn't he appear to Joseph and Oliver Cowdery?

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Why was it Peter, James, and John, and John the Baptist? Why didn't Jesus appear if he's the only one that can give it? Why didn't he give it to them?

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No, in the doctrine, Peter, James, and John gave the Melchizedek priesthood.

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Okay, but was there an ordination to the priesthood in that situation? But was there an ordination to the priesthood?

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You pray about it. You ask Heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, if what I'm telling you is true.

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And I tell you, in his name, that you will receive an answer. It's a circular argument, sir.

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Moroni 10 actually says that the only way you would get a no is if you didn't have real intent. It's not a circular argument.

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If you didn't have real intent. So all you're saying to anybody who gets a no is saying... Yeah, but listen to me.

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All you're saying to people outside who get a no is if they get a no, they don't have real intent.

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That's all it's saying. So there's no way anybody can get a no if they did, that they didn't have real intent. And that's a great belief if you want everybody to believe the same way you do.

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But it leaves no opening to this actual spirit telling you, no, do not follow after a false gospel.

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That is the problem with what you were saying. Because I definitely got a no, and I definitely was pulled out by God.

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So the fact of the matter lies in this. You can say that. But what you're saying is if I got a no, oh, you must not have had real intent.

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You must not have had a broken and contrite spirit. Because that's what Moroni 10 says. That's a circular argument. That is not a legit argument.

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That is logical fallacy. That's your opinion. I don't believe that.

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Sir, we would call you to repentance and faith in the true Christ. I call you to repentance and ask you to humble yourselves before God and Christ.

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And ask him, is Joseph Smith thy prophet? We have, and God has shown in his word he's not.

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He fails the test of a prophet. He's shown in his word. You're relying on the written word and not on the

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Holy Spirit. And that's the difference, right? You rely on your feelings in a prayer and not the word of God.

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That's the difference. Not on the past written word of God. I rely on the Holy Ghost. Yeah, the word is the very...

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I believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the

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Holy Ghost. All three, not just two. Oh yeah. Three. Certainly.

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And there, what they've done is... You're telling me that you're not relying on the Holy Spirit, which is part of the

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Godhead. That's, I call you to repentance. He's given us his word. I call you to ask in sincerity.

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So 2 Timothy says that all scripture, if you know the Greek, all scripture is Theanostas.

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Follow Moroni's instructions. Would you listen to me for just two seconds? I get it. Listen to me for a couple seconds. I get where you're coming from.

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I know your testimony. You want me to pray about Joseph Smith. I heard you, okay? I heard you. But you're not willing to do it.

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2 Timothy says that all scripture, which is the Bible, is Theanostas, or God breathed.

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So all of this is breathed out by the Holy Spirit. So you not trusting this word is you not trusting the

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Spirit, because all of this was God breathed. The Spirit wouldn't contradict what he's given and revealed in the word.

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He wouldn't reveal to you something that is contradictory to what he's revealed in his word. The Book of Mormon doesn't contradict that.

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The Book of Mormon isn't a revelation of God. The Book of Mormon is a false revelation. No, it is not. It's a true revelation.

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No, it's a copycat thing that Joseph Smith made. I tell you in the name of Jesus Christ. You can say that, but it is a false revelation, sir.

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You can say that, but just as I can't call the tree Jesus and be Christian, it's the same concept. I tell you in the name of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon is God's word.

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It's true. No. You can say that all day long. It doesn't change the fact that you can call something else Jesus and it's not

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Jesus. It doesn't change the fact that you need to humble yourself and ask for yourself. I am humble. I'm a sinner and I need a Savior. That is the reason

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I'm out here. I'm not better than anybody else. But I know that I am deeply deplorable. We're all sinners, right?

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And that you need a Savior and you need the actual Savior. We have a Savior. Jesus Christ is our Savior. I agree with that.

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Then why are you doing works to save yourself? I'm not doing works to save myself. Before you say that, can you get to the third level of the celestial kingdom without eternal marriage?

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And don't lie to me, because I know the truth. Can you? Can you get there? Without being celestially married in the temple, can you get to the third level of the celestial kingdom?

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Not without being faithful to your covenants. But one of those covenants is getting married.

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So without being married, you cannot make there, right? Not the highest, no. So that's a work.

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That is a work. That's a work to earn the highest level of salvation. That is a work. What we're saying is Jesus is enough.

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What we're saying is Jesus is enough to make it to that third level without anything else. Jesus plus anything is false gospel.

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And as Paul says, if you put law into it at all, you have fallen from grace. Jesus plus nothing equals everything.

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Jesus plus anything equals nothing. That is not the law of Moses. It is Jesus' current day covenant. That's not the law of Moses that I'm talking about.

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I said Jesus' sacrifice is enough to save you. And that is all you need. That is all.

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You don't need an organization. You don't need ordinances. You don't need words. Then why did Jesus organize his church in the first place?

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Back in the former times? Is that what you're saying? Former times and now. He did.

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It says there's an office of elder overseers and there's an office of deacons.

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That's it. Yeah, in the Bible if you read it. Sacrifice is the only thing you need. Why have an organization of his church?

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To come together to commune. That is what it's for. Why do you need to commune if you have his sacrifice?

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What do you mean? What are you saying? You're telling me that all you need is to know that Christ sacrificed his life for us.

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You don't need anything else. He's not talking about that doesn't mean that we don't come together to worship.

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He's saying, salvificly, what do you need to be reconciled to God? What do you need to be justified and made right before a living

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God? It is Jesus alone. In Galatians, all they were trying to do was add circumcision to the gospel.

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Why was Jesus baptized then by one holding authority? It says to fulfill all righteousness.

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It was the inauguration of his earthly ministry. Right. And if he was holy and was needed to be baptized, we that are unholy, how much more...

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He didn't need the baptism for sin. He was sinless. I know, but why did he teach his gospel, which included the commission of sins?

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He called them to preach the gospel. Matthew 28, the great commission to take it out. And to baptize people for their righteousness.

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Yeah, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yeah. That has not changed. Amen. It's the same today.

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Amen. And his authority as a priesthood has been restored to do that. But it doesn't say anything about authority.

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It just says... It doesn't say you have the priesthood or the authority to do that. It's all believers. And it says in the

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New Testament that the priesthood is all believers in Jesus. So, yes, what you're saying is there has to be a line of authority.

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But what Jesus tells us, what Jesus in the New Testament tells us, is that every believer has the authority to baptize.

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That's in the New Testament, too. So, if you leave those crucial elements out, brothers, there is no way that you can enter the true church of Jesus Christ.

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You can quote me on that. Sir, we care... I'm David St. Ambrose Chabot. And I'm a high priest of Jesus Christ.

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And I witness to you that that is the truth. We care for you, sir. Please turn from this place.

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We'll help you. We'll help you leave this. I know... Please turn. I know it costs you a lot to leave this place.

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We are a royal priesthood. We're a holy nation.

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We're a royal priesthood. Absolutely.

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And the only way you can do that is to come to his true church, his restored church, that has been brought back as it was prophesied by his ancient apostles in the

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New Testament. I witness to you that that's true. I know it's true. You have a false gospel, false

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Jesus, false prophets, false spirit, false revelation. It's all false, sir. You need to turn to the one true

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God. That's what you say. But I prophesy and I tell you that you will know someday that what

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I say is the truth. And I call you to repentance in the name of Jesus Christ.

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Thank you for your time. Take care. Thank you. I know the dialogue was spirited.

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Thank you for conversing with us. We mean no disrespect, sir. So, thank you for your time.