Dead Men Walking Podcast with Joel Arcieri from Theology of Music Podcast

Dead Men Walking

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00:03

So what's up guys, how's it going? Pretty good. What's going on, man? So if you guys don't know,

00:10

I am talking right now, obviously, you'll know from the title, but I am talking to the dead men walking podcast, who have probably one of the most official setups

00:19

I've ever seen in my life for like, well, here's the thing, you guys, I mean, you're not like Joe Rogan, right?

00:26

You're not like this huge podcast, but I love how... Hey, well, here's the thing, are we going to start talking about naming and claiming?

00:36

Yes, we will. Yes, we will. We are going to change our theology to become popular. Money coming to us.

00:44

Sorry. Isn't that one of the most frustrating things about being on like the reformed side is there's no way to really be popular, even amongst the reformed people.

00:52

Yeah. Like Doc and Devo did it, but they still like are pretty chill. I know that they hold to the same stuff, but they don't go like all out.

01:02

There's a folded audience out there right now, putting their arms together. Booing.

01:09

I don't like that. I mean, I can't really talk. My wife said the back of my picture looks like I'm in a pot store, like a hoop lounge.

01:19

Yes. I like it. Great. Thank you. It's all about the contrast, right? I've got this orange, yellowish light on me.

01:26

The blue behind, you know, depth of field. You know, that's so stupid.

01:31

I think we got an artist on our hands. Yeah, we do. Well, I am. I have to be a songwriter. I kind of like, you know,

01:37

I got to do that. And I will say when my daughter asked me to draw something, I take it way too seriously. So it works.

01:43

Do you guys do that? Have you ever? Perspective lines aren't exactly what they should be, honey. Yeah. She's two years old.

01:50

She wrote it with a Play -Doh. Hold on. She can learn. That stick person has way too many fingers.

01:56

All right. Or not enough. Maybe she was drawing. The hair isn't right. Why'd you draw my beard like that,

02:02

Lucy? Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? That's not how it looks. That's not how a beard looks. No snack for you.

02:07

So you're particular and insecure. And he is an artist.

02:13

I am. Hey, there you go. You've pegged me in the first few minutes. It was that easy.

02:18

We're the same. It's okay. Well, that's the thing. Okay. So how about this for my listeners who might not know you?

02:24

Obviously, I'm going to tell them, you know, subscribe to your podcast, follow you guys on Instagram, that kind of thing. But we're like, how did one, how'd you get into podcasting?

02:31

And two, why? Like, where's the music? Cause you guys said you used to leave music. So what happened to that?

02:37

Where was the switch to do? Was there a switch? Well, so the podcast came about because of COVID and I, and I had been thinking about doing a podcast for quite a long time because I realized after 10 years on social media, nothing has ever won on a

02:54

Facebook argument. Oh, well, I beg to differ. Jason's one of you.

03:01

As, as you say that, that's literally the person who never wins an argument on Facebook. I beg to differ.

03:07

Hey, how would you get off my stupid post about fruit or vegetables? Get out of here. It's not woke. Okay. Vegan.

03:12

So in April of 2020, we, we launched and, and it was funny because in my mind,

03:20

I had an idea of like what it was going to be. And then Jason was my first guest and I was like, that went really well.

03:27

So I called him up like two days later. I was like, why don't you just come on with me and co -hosts.

03:33

And he's like, I don't do anything like that. Absolutely not. But yeah, I'll do it. Sounds like a horrible idea.

03:39

Yeah, sure. Those are the best ideas. They have no merit, but they work.

03:44

And then we have like, you know, we do some music on the, on the program that Jason will play the guitar and we do some drops and our intros and, and the book suggestion intros.

03:56

We do that kind of stuff. And we've been rolling around doing a little more music. Jason's I'm kind of taking a break from our worship team, but Jason's playing music in church.

04:05

Yep. Nice. He was a international touring musician went all over the world, did really well with his band and his

04:11

BC. I don't know if there are the official BC before Christ days or just like, no, no, no. This was, this was all.

04:18

We did, we did, but you, you were, we had Christ lyrics. And then we went into the backslide.

04:26

Wait. So what was your band? We're called scratch track. So it was a, yeah,

04:32

I was on acoustic guitar playing riff based. Yeah. Guitar parts.

04:38

And then there were two guys that beat boxed and then there was harmonies, hip hop gospel.

04:44

It was, it was really cool. That's on iTunes and, you know, everywhere has Spotify or whatever.

04:50

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, I don't even think we get eight is best described as an acoustic hip hop soul band that formed in Tennessee in 2000.

05:00

Group is composed of vocal beat boxer, DJ Lee and guitarist Jason Hamlin.

05:06

There was, there was two of us after four or five years or something like that, but yeah. Yeah, bro.

05:13

All right. You're big time. It's now. Well, I don't mean to, to don't mean to brag.

05:18

You have a YouTube, you have a Google search like that comes up. Okay. Really?

05:24

Yeah. That's funny. I have not been on there in a long time. I mean, you know, here and there,

05:29

I'm like, man, I remember this one song we used to play. Oh yeah. We wrote it. That's cool. That was a good tune.

05:36

Here's what's funny really quick too. I just want to interject this. This is what makes this so handy. He has toured. And any musician that's toured for a long time will understand this.

05:45

Every single person that we've had on as a guest and we've had over 80 guests on, they will say where they're from.

05:50

And he'll go, Oh, that little bar right there on second street where they play the honky tonk. And they're like, yeah, he knows every spot.

05:57

Icebreaker and cred. Yes. Oh, instant cred. They're like, Whoa. It is pretty crazy how many different colleges we played in small

06:06

Podunk towns. I mean, across the, across the well, the U S pretty much, but, and in Europe, those were more at venues and bars and more in Japan.

06:17

Okay. But anyway, so I'm, I'm like, yeah, man, I'm, I'm getting the dead men walking. I'm really,

06:22

I'm getting an international music star on the podcast. And the dead men walking is just kind of nice little side.

06:30

No, Greg is a commissioner, a County commissioner. That's what needs to be said for sure.

06:37

What? So, okay. We got a lot to this story, right? Yeah. You know, but so my music thing was, you know, it was homeschooled.

06:47

I wanted to learn drums. My dad said, Nope, you got to learn piano. Did that for eight years. Then got a little older and said, okay, buy me my drums.

06:53

He's like, you're old enough to buy your own now. So he got, got me on that one and basically just focus on piano and drums are my two.

07:00

When I'm in a rowdy mood, I'll play some drums. When I'm in a worshipful mood, I'll sit down. You'll just sit on the one in four.

07:08

You're like, Oh yeah, I want to feel it right now. And that's awesome. Always been, always been part of my life.

07:13

Jason is much more talented though. In the music. No way, man. He's, he's led, he leads worship.

07:19

He like leads worship, you know? And that's a skill that really, this is, this is making me uncomfortable.

07:26

Good. Good. This is where we need to sit in this podcast. Think about it. I mean, like the guy that's leading an entire congregation, no matter, no matter if it's five people out there or if there's, you know, 500, it's, it's a really hard thing to do.

07:42

And you definitely have to be prepared for that role. Well, I will say this. I've had people come up to me and say that was different.

07:49

And it's like, because I really was different. It was different. And they say that, but just because, you know, when you're in a kind of emerging church or you're kind of in something where it's like production based, like you were saying,

08:00

Joel, before we got started, it's very like that guy that's at the front or that woman that's at the front is kind of the center and leading everything.

08:10

And mine was always very much more like, Hey, Jason's going to work on the guitar now, or,

08:15

Hey, it's going to be very much more corporate. I like to hear, I think we're going to get into this a little bit.

08:20

Yeah. But what drives me crazy is when I can hear just maybe one or two voices being led and it's not corporate.

08:28

It's, it's such a good thing to hear the voices of, you know, 50, a hundred, 200 of your sisters worshiping with you.

08:34

And that's kind of where, kind of where I was when, when I did have the opportunity to lead.

08:40

Yeah. I, I was, when I was training or like mentoring worship leaders, I always told them it's, and it's the same thing when it comes to songwriting.

08:48

And I don't know if Jason, you ever heard this. I think Taylor Swift said at one point, she said, if you can't do your song on an acoustic guitar and just singing, then it's not a good song.

08:57

Like if you can't convey this song on an acoustic guitar and just singing, then it's not a good song. And I think it's the same thing with leading worship. Like if you can't lead a congregation worship with just you and your instrument, then you're not a good worship leader because you shouldn't be, you shouldn't need all the stuff to be able to lead five or a thousand people.

09:14

And I would always tell people and they'd be like, wouldn't you be nervous if you led like 10 ,000? I'm like, no, because it's not about the number.

09:20

It's about what you're doing it for. Yeah. And not that the Lord ever gave me that opportunity, but like, it's just, it's the reason, like you guys said, it's not about being the person on stage where all the attention's on.

09:31

And it drives me nuts. It really does when I was ever looking at churches when we were kind of moving and I never,

09:37

I saw them give the opportunity for the congregation to sing. Yeah. And you don't have to just stop singing.

09:43

Right. Cause there are people, I will say like, I've been on all the sides. I've led all the different types of denominations of churches, different types of services.

09:51

And I get it. There are people who just are nervous. Right. I mean, and you've, and you've got people within, you know, like, let's say are more reformed churches reformed

09:59

Baptist churches, Presbyterian churches who also sing come the fountain and don't sing the call for songs of loudest praise.

10:05

And they sing it like they're like two DBs. They don't know how to sing a loudest praise, but they, they're just nervous or they're not used to singing with more gusto and more fervor.

10:16

And so when you pull off of the mic instantly, they clam up and, you know, they don't want to sing. So there's, but you have to train your church to be a singing church.

10:24

You don't just say, Oh, they don't like to sing. And then that's it. Cause that's what happens. I mean, how many worship leaders have you talked to that, you know?

10:31

Right. Well, they don't sing when we do it. Consequently the two DBs also a name we considered for this podcast.

10:39

Two DBs. Well, I love that you guys like, that's how you guys ended up. I think that's so cool that you guys did, you know, so Jason, you, you were a guest and then you guys were just like, actually, this is really good.

10:52

I don't know if you've found that in your podcast. I think it's the same thing too. I think people enjoy podcasts more when there is more than one person, unless you're like this expert, but even

11:01

Joe Rogan has, you know, guests on every week because people listen, not only for you, but they also want to hear the other perspective.

11:09

And then, you know, they want to hear your banter with them. You want to, they want to hear how you get along and talk and what you guys do.

11:17

Yeah. The interaction. Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah. I was just going to go back to the, to the worship section that we were just in, but I just remember at fight lab feast.

11:28

I mean, it was so cool when we sang a mighty fortress is our God. And it was just like all the voices.

11:36

I mean, the, the, the music leader would, would start it in the microphone just to get everybody started and then back away and everybody would just sing.

11:45

And, and they were, we were singing psalms. We were singing a lot of different tunes, but man, it was, it was so fun.

11:54

Yeah. And, and, and, and to piggyback on Joel's point, what was his name?

11:59

Cause we had him on the podcast, the music Aaron, Aaron Schnell, Aaron Schnell, Satan. He's an, he's my name guy too.

12:05

I can't remember a name to save my life, but he would do something too, to where you were just saying, you know, you have to teach your congregation to sing.

12:13

And it's like, we would have a thousand people and he would go, okay, everyone who kind of has a lower voice sing this.

12:19

And they would say they go in this section, sing that. And within five minutes, we had three parts of a thousand people who had just the music and you know, the, the words in front of them sounded glorious.

12:31

Was it professional? Was it going to go pay $200 and hear it in an orchestra? But it's not what it's about.

12:37

It's not what it's about. It sounded beautiful. It was giving glory to God. And as he goes, yeah, that's all it takes.

12:42

So it goes back to your point, Joel, to to where it's like, you just can't get up there and be like, Oh, I guess they don't sing. It's like, you have to do a little bit as the leader, but you also expect a little bit from the congregation.

12:53

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they want, and they usually want to participate in exactly. Well, it comes back to literally what you said, what you just said.

13:02

So you boil it down to its basic thing that takes time. And if time is precious to your production on a

13:09

Sunday, you're not going to do that. Yeah. Right. So if time is precious to your production on a Sunday, you're like, well, we don't have the time to train our church a little bit more.

13:19

Right. Or, or, or do another song or do the same song again next week. So they're more comfortable or, or minimize, right.

13:27

Are the song sets that we have in the sense of we're not just singing a new song every week, but we're really training our congregation to learn the songs and learn the hymns and the

13:37

Psalter and anything. Right. Yeah. But if you don't think, you know, if you think it's a waste of time, but yeah, you're never going to do it.

13:43

I remember, have you guys ever gone to T4G at all? No, we haven't. So if you like Fight, Laugh, Feast for the, you know, obviously other things from Fight, Laugh, Feast, but the singing at T4G is unparalleled because so you guys know

13:57

Bob Conflin from Sovereign Grace. Right. So he, I'm trying to remember how long, he's been doing it a long time and he's in his seventies.

14:04

I'm kidding. He's up there. His son Devin, I think is going to be on the podcast next month. We saw him at G3, but yeah.

14:09

Yes. Awesome. So, so Bob will lead the music and he'll lead it from the piano and that will be it.

14:15

And there's like 14 ,000 people. Wow. So just imagine Fight, Laugh, Feast time, 14 ,000.

14:22

Yeah. And that's what it is. I mean, you're hearing people pastors from all over the world and country singing a song, you know, and it's like a mighty fortress all

14:30

I have is Christ come now found, you know, it is well a bunch of like just amazing hymns that, you know, have enriched our faith as we've just been, you know, even as worship leaders or people leading worship or playing worship music, right.

14:44

Yeah. Hymns that you would just enjoy and then hearing a bunch of people sing them. And like you said, sing them out, right.

14:50

Not just, yeah. Just not just singing them, singing them out. And then you naturally with 14 ,000 people, you're going to have multiple parts.

14:55

So it's really cool when you hear like 14 ,000 people and you've got the melody and a harmony going, oh, it's amazing.

15:02

That's awesome. Also kudos to you to get Devin on the podcast. Yeah, no, it should be good.

15:07

We just emailed him last week and he was like, yeah, let's do it. And sometimes we get in these grooves where we talk about the same thing.

15:13

Yeah. Yeah. With the same guests. And we're like, does our audience want to hear a podcast on worship music?

15:19

Yeah. We've done like five. Well, let's, what should we talk about? Let's change it up. Yeah. Right. We're on yours.

15:28

We're on yours. So that's okay. That's fair. I keep forgetting that I keep forgetting that I'm supposed to be driving this conversation because I'm enjoying just talking.

15:35

I don't like my people aren't going to listen to this podcast. Oh, they totally will. Who is he talking to? Oh, well, okay. Yeah, for sure.

15:41

Get a twofer out of it. There we go. Well, and I really appreciate though. I love that you guys, you care about theology and you, you guys do it.

15:51

And what's a really fun, cool way is obviously through memes, right? That some way you can enjoy, but I love that you guys have targeted guests on where you talk about specific doctrinal

16:01

I think tent poles of, of what could be issues in our culture right now, things where we're we're not landing on.

16:07

I mean, you look at, I think about what's just, I mean, obviously you know what's going on in our culture and how crazy it is right now. And I always just go back to, like I talked about this last week on my podcast or not last week, but I talked about, this is my father's world.

16:19

And I talked about how that, that hymn is more about the supremacy and the sovereignty of God.

16:25

Right. Not about like, Oh, you know, he reigned. So I don't have to be sad. Right. Which everyone just focuses on the last stanza.

16:32

But the first two are, he's literally the one who owns and made everything. Yeah. So you have no, like you have no ground to stand on when it comes to talking about what you think the law of nature should be, what you think whatever human rights should be.

16:46

Right. You just, you don't get to be a part of the discussion, right. When it comes to setting the stage. And, and I think we miss that in music because we've we in, even in like,

16:58

I think even in reformed places, like we, we get camped. I think we get, we either get, we're on our

17:05

Bethel elevation Hill song side, CCM, super contemporary, simple. There's no, there's tons of ambiguity.

17:10

You don't know what the heck you're singing half the time. And then you know exactly what you're singing. And it's incredibly verbose and incredibly theologically rich and deep with, with more of the reform side.

17:22

Right. Which I love, I love to write both types of songs. But the problem though, is it's like, one of the cool things about hymns back in the day was they were written and they were kind of culturally sensitive in that sense, right.

17:35

They were written by people who were living in the times. And then they stole melodies from bar songs.

17:41

So that's for you. But you know, like they stole bar songs to take that. And so it was, everything was culturally, culturally relevant because it was true and it was from the

17:50

Lord, but they were really mindful of that. And I think, I think what we do often though, is we try to go against the culture to say, well, the culture is talking about this.

17:57

So let's just, you know, put this in the face of it. Like, no, what's the, what is the need? What's the felt need that these people that are completely running away from the

18:06

Lord, or even are in the church and are wrestling, what, what can we do in the songs that we sing to show them where they're at and what they need to know and what they don't know.

18:16

Right. I just think that there's, we need to keep caring about what we sing in a way that we also don't just care about the theology and the depth, but we care about, okay.

18:24

Yeah. But let me think about this from the perspective of where is this person in their faith when they're wrestling with, you know,

18:31

I would deal with this a lot with millennials, like deconstructing their faith. Okay. What's the truth that rebuts where they're at, you know?

18:38

Yeah. So anyway, I just went on a tangent, but what about you guys? I don't have a problem with being culturally relevant in our songs.

18:46

It's just that sometimes I think we disagree on what's culturally relevant. I think the word of God is culturally relevant.

18:52

Amen. So I think our song should reflect that. I think the big issue we're having in Western Christianity and worship is the reason why we even worship first and foremost, very simple, right?

19:02

It's we don't go there to be blessed. We go there to bless, right? The very first question of the

19:07

Westminster, what is the chief end of man to love him and glorify him and enjoy him forever? Right. And I'm paraphrasing that, but everything we do must glorify

19:15

God as a first Corinthians 10 31 says, whether you eat or drink or whatever it is, and that includes worship.

19:21

So that's one, two. I also think that that experience that we're talking about when you hear, you know, 15 ,000 people singing in corporate worship, a hymn in you understand that you're blessing the

19:33

Lord, that you're, you're, you're giving him everything that you can give him in worship, the production side of that in a elevation church or, you know, a mega church.

19:43

And I'm not saying anything against mega churches particular, but this, you know, in a, in a, maybe a progressive or emerging church, it's almost like a cheap, the production style.

19:54

It's like a cheap representation of that. Yes. That's a really good word. A little bit. It feels good for a little bit, but you can only eat a chocolate cake every day before you, you start to get sick of it.

20:05

You know, you have to go get a nice you know, T -bone that's medium rare and it has some mushrooms on top.

20:13

Yeah. And that's, you know, but my point is, is

20:20

I always want to be in the right mindset of who I am in juxtaposition to God. Right. Proverbs says the beginning of wisdom is to fear the

20:28

Lord, not only have a fear of what he is and who he is and what he can do, but also have a reverence for him.

20:35

And unfortunately I feel we don't approach the throne of grace in worship that often in churches anymore with that fear and reverence instead of what am

20:44

I going to get out of this? Right. Like I had a bad week. I just need to get in the presence of the

20:50

Lord to recharge so I can recharge. Right. And I can, and I can feel it. And it's like, no man, when

20:55

I come before the throne, I come humbly. I know I'm forgiven. I know my, my sin has been, you know,

21:03

Christ righteousness has been imputed to me. I get all that, but at the same time, I can't forget where I came from and why

21:08

I was saved by his grace and by nothing else. And that should be reflected in our worship. And I think the biggest thing with that is the words for me.

21:15

Yeah. We did a whole episode on that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't necessarily the music. Right.

21:21

Cause I'll sit down and play Jerry Lee Lewis with the rest of them on my piano and enjoy it. And I, you know, there's times

21:27

I'm sitting there and I'm not worshiping. Yeah. There's, there's times I'm sitting there listening to Hank senior saying, you know, stop cheating on me.

21:35

And then all of a sudden it's, you know, I saw the light. So like, you know, we, we go through these things.

21:41

I mean, David Bonson at the first fight lab feast had a talk on, it was called punk rock

21:49

Kuyperianism. Right. So not sure if you guys know who Abraham Kuyper is, but you should really check him out.

21:57

But one of his quotes is there's not a square inch in the whole domain of our human existence over which

22:03

Christ who is sovereign over all does not cry mine. Amen. Amen.

22:09

When you bring that into a podcast, into worship and you know, like,

22:14

I mean, there are so many subjects that we can sing about. There are so many things, you know, to and you know, for Christ, you know, and and I really think, you know, whenever we come into corporate worship,

22:30

I mean, that is what it's about. Amen. You know, and like we've talked about it so many times on here, the me gospel, you know, over and over.

22:38

Oh my gosh. It's like, it, it starts to just drive you crazy because I mean, you're, you're sitting there in a, in a church with with, you know, the red, blue, uh, cannon lights or can lights pointing down at the stage.

22:51

It's more of like a concert. It's like people are sitting there. The, uh, the, the people that they're trying to be secret sensitive to they're sitting there like, come on, show me something.

23:02

Almost like when I used to do showcases in Nashville or LA or New York, like people, people would show up, cross their arms and just stare and press me.

23:11

Yeah. Like do something, you know, paid money. So let's go. Exactly. But that's what it's turning.

23:17

You know, it's like, I brought it up with, uh, Sam storm, dr. Sam storms on our show. Um, just the

23:22

American idol, um, critical spirit that ends up coming in. And it's like, man, it's like, what are we doing with, with our work music, you know?

23:32

But at the same time we should call out some of these hair heretical, uh, right.

23:38

Versus that are being sung. Yeah. Yeah. It's our fault though.

23:45

Yeah. It's a balance between don't be too critical, but also you have, you have to understand that it can do real harm in worship and in preaching and in teaching sermons.

23:55

If we, if we, if we lead away from the true theology of Christ, the truth true theology of God, the father, like we, we have to know who rightly know who he is and rightly know who we are, or you just set yourself on a trajectory over years and years.

24:09

And we've talked about it before on this podcast, you can talk to Christians that have been sitting in church once a week, twice a week for 20 years.

24:16

And if you don't touch on their little five things of what they've learned outside of that, they go, what, what are you talking about?

24:22

I don't know about the issue or that, you know? And it's like, so I don't know, man, like we don't want to be critical, but also you have to, you have to raise up a standard too and say, look at, we have to do what the call commands us to do.

24:34

And we have to worship in spirit and in truth. And I think sometimes we focus too much up on the spirit it says and in truth.

24:41

And it's like, well, what truth is that? The truth of the word of God. If you're worshiping outside of that truth, then you are falsely worshiping.

24:47

You should not be doing that. I'm not really too concerned about the way it sounds. I'm pretty liberal on the sound of music.

24:54

I know I've said it many times, but AB Wilson has a quote and he says, does the devil own the seventh? Does he own the fifth?

25:00

Does he own the core? Because if so, we will go to hell. We will plunder it and take it back because it belongs to us to glorify

25:06

God. And that's what I use music for to glorify God in all that I do. I don't care if I'm playing a minor chord, a major chord, a blues riff, you know, like a one and a four, like you were sitting there.

25:16

It's like, it's all glory to God. And I was going to go to what, what you kind of got in a discussion with Dr.

25:23

Storms just about Bethel and about the two books and about Bill Johnson, just bring up certain things that Bill has said.

25:32

Yeah. And that was a tough moment for us and for you, especially because you were ready, you were ready to kind of have a debate.

25:43

He was, he was defending him in love and love, but yeah, he was defending Bill Johnson and you know, it was, it was an interesting moment.

25:52

Yeah. That'll drop that. That'll drop on our, the, what is that? I don't know. On Wednesday, this Wednesday, that was an interesting one because here you have a very learned man, someone who has taught me a lot about eschatology, who's been super respected, super respected, right.

26:07

Amazing. And saying, Oh, well, when he said Christ laid down his divinity and just lived as a man, that was just sloppy theology.

26:12

And it's like, okay, well you're a pastor. And he goes, well, he's not really a theologian. Well, okay. 10 ,000 people that show up.

26:21

You need to know what you're saying. Yeah. So you love Sproul, right? So I remember this story right after Sproul died at T4G it's

26:29

Piper, DeYoung, Dever, who else was up there?

26:37

MacArthur. They're all doing this panel and they say, let's let, yeah. They're like, let's just talk about Sproul.

26:43

What's your favorite Sproul memory to kind of honoring him and Piper, John Piper was like, I remember this one time

26:49

I preached this amazing sermon at a conference. I just, I was so good. And I left the stage like, yes,

26:54

I'm in like, okay. And RC Sproul comes up to me and he goes, did you mean to say if instead of like, if God or something like that, you know?

27:07

He said, yeah. He's like, it's since it's not, if words matter,

27:12

John. Wait, hold on. But he was like, he was so right because I had this opportunity to speak clearly and to, and to speak, you know, rightly about who the

27:24

Lord is in this matter. I forget what it was about. And, and RC Sproul was like, you, you didn't blow it, but you didn't do it all the way that you could have went.

27:33

And I think that's so true. So you can't, you can't make that excuse about anyone. You were all image bearers.

27:38

It doesn't matter if you have a pulpit or a platform, right? We are all, we are all image bearers. And so we're all responsible to speak rightly about the

27:46

Lord and who he is and his character and what he's done and his plan for us. And if we don't, that's on us.

27:52

It's not on, it's not on anyone else to defend us. It's on us and the Lord to say, yeah,

27:57

I got, I, I didn't, I need to learn. Right. You need to help me because I, I, I was wrong, but that's part of it.

28:04

So the difference too, and I think this is something that you guys do too, because you said, you know, there's, you're talking about why you did the podcast.

28:11

And I think one of the reasons you said to was it was, it was about like you're not gonna win an argument on Facebook.

28:19

And so I often will go back to kind of similar mentality in that I want to lean into discipleship relationships to, to win the people over to, to the side because so often

28:31

I've interacted, same thing, kind of like knocking on Dr. Storm's, same thing. People who are more towards that side, leaning more towards a faith that's more charismatic or something like that.

28:43

It's, it's not that they are dead in their sins and you can't save them, but it's hard to convince someone they need, they're not right and they need to learn something.

28:53

If there's no part in them that thinks I need to learn something. And so it's so difficult when

28:59

I would find. And so I even discipled a guy who was this edgy, stupid edgy worship leader who just wanted to say the

29:07

F bomb all the time. Cause he got hurt by the church. And I was like, you got to stop doing that. If you want to lead worship, I never want to lead worship.

29:12

Well, I, I, I got him hired to take over my place when I left this one church. And he's a fantastic worship leader, but he's still growing in his faith.

29:20

So at first he was all like, he would do elevation style church. Right. And now he's started to develop more of a depth in his theology, but that's over time.

29:30

And it's really hard to get people to a lack of depth in their theology to depth in their theology from one conversation.

29:37

And I'm always really more keen to do a long -term discipleship on a journey with them for that.

29:43

And I think it's built into worship leading, right? Discipling volunteers on your worship team, stuff like that.

29:49

And I think worship leaders are doing a bad job, not doing that. That's what I was saying was it's our fault. Like we've, we bought into the lie that we were told in the nineties churches, like a gas station, you know, your tank's empty.

30:00

You need to just fill back up. Like that's not what church is about. That's not what corporate worship is about. Yeah. There's things

30:06

I would say real quick too is, you know, my, it's not famous, but what

30:11

I've always said is we, and I told this to a church planner once and he looked at me sideways. I said, we need less pastors and more disciples.

30:19

And, and he just went, what? No, that's how you reach people. And it's like, well, if we had more disciples, we'd be reaching people.

30:24

It's not the building that we raise a million dollars for, and then go in debt for, and then, you know, plan it in some part of church or, you know, the city to where we say we need it.

30:33

Just let's make more disciples. Like you were saying. And then too, it's like, when did we think that it's, that we could be more liberal with our theology when it's a worship leader or someone who's, you know, a choir director or whatever label you want to put on it.

30:45

But in, in, but we make sure we're not with the pastor, like make sure his theology is good, but then we're loosey goosey kind of more liberal with the worship.

30:55

And it's like, no, you're, you're singing theology. That's all you're doing different. You're just like the, I would say,

31:00

I would put them on equal footing, maybe not in a, you know, an overseer in a pastoral sense, but delivering on a

31:06

Sunday morning or, you know, on a Sabbath of theology, you're just singing your theology.

31:12

He's speaking it. So it's like we need to rightly understand with worship leaders too. Like what they're doing is extremely important for the body.

31:20

That's the same as having a song on Caleb. I mean, a lot of those, those people that are on Caleb, if you're listening to any of that stuff, a lot of people are picking up that kind of theology from that radio station when they have great, there are some great tunes, like, you know, you kind of got to dig a little bit.

31:38

Yes. I mean, Melodies pledges. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. There are some great melodies.

31:44

There are some great harmonies and guitar parts even. And whatever, you know,

31:50

I mean, if you're just talking about just a regular pop tune or whatever, but the lyric is so soft.

31:58

It just does not do Jesus justice. Okay. Unpopular opinion here.

32:04

So this is just me. You two tell me what you think here. If I'm not worshiping.

32:10

Okay. And I'm just listening to music. Yeah. I'm not going to listen to that music.

32:15

I would rather go listen to Southbound by Doobie brothers. Oh yeah. For sure. Or go in and go and know how to parse out the words.

32:23

Okay. I don't think there's a spirit attached to a Led Zeppelin song, but I'm like, if I want to hear a riff or a drum beat or a blues,

32:30

I'm sorry, but the quality of music for kind of that poppy love, like Jesus, my boyfriend,

32:36

I just don't want anything to do with it. Just give me the actual, give me the hit of the good stuff. Right.

32:41

And when I say that I'm saying I'm saying from musical standpoint. Okay. Because I think,

32:47

I think worship is more about words and less about music. And I think God can also be glorified in, you know, and like I said, in a blues riff as well too.

32:57

So I don't know, man. It depends on who the, who the blues guy is and what he's saying, but yeah,

33:02

I just can't, I just can't get Gary Clark Jr. Yeah. The, the, for sure.

33:08

Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm saying is like the words aren't doing anything for me and the music's not doing anything. So it's like, what's the point.

33:13

Yeah. Right. I hear you. I, yeah, I think, I think in, in our situation, I mean, with, with Aubrey being 12, you know, we're, we're trying to just show her, you know, some better music and what she's learning about at school, but, you know, of course, man, like I'm a,

33:30

I'm a musician's musician, man. Like I listened to everything from Mozart to,

33:37

I mean, I want, yeah, yeah. There's, there's other stuff that I listened to not really over and over and over again, but you don't really love strap.

33:47

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You're hit with, you're hit with the kids. Yeah. He's really great.

33:54

But, but yeah, I mean, I mean, there's, there's so much great music out there for sure. And it would be great to see some of that Christian music get, get up on that level.

34:06

And of course to, you know, like using that term, of course too, is, is like hard to, because I mean, when we were backslidden, we would just tell people that we were, we were doing regular music.

34:21

Yeah. We were, we were doing regular music. We were just, if we had a song that we were talking about Jesus and redemption, and then the next song we were talking about how, you know, a girl broke our heart or whatever.

34:34

It's like, yeah, it's coming from that same person, you know, that, that might be an apostasy that was an apostasy, but still, you know,

34:45

I knew that Jesus was King. Yeah. That's all that matters. Yeah. No.

34:51

And I love, I think, I don't think that's wrong to do. I was actually talking to my wife about this. So I just, so in my story, right.

34:59

I had a bad break from the church. And I didn't think I was ever going to play on a worship team again, which is hard because I'm a singer songwriter.

35:06

Like I've got my guitar case behind me. I write music. I write worship music with my friend in our band, the grace collective.

35:12

Like we, we, we care about depth and we, we want to write more songs for the local church that people can sing that.

35:19

And, and I was, I was joking with my wife. Like, I don't think many worship musicians look at a song and go, okay, how can

35:27

I push myself to be a better musician in this? Right. In the sense, like we don't value not production.

35:34

We just don't value excellence. Yeah. Right. And, and, and I'm like, dude, if there's a riff.

35:40

So I make the joke because one of my old churches they did one of our songs called overall. And it was cool because it felt like people were genuinely worshiping

35:48

Because it's closhings one and it's all about Christ who's over everything, right. Yeah. And, and it's all about the supremacy of Christ.

35:55

And it was cool because you could notice a song before. Was fine. People weren't like they were in it, but they're not, you know, it was kind of the, you're in it.

36:03

Cause you're there. Yeah. But then you saw the reality of people seeing the risen

36:08

Christ in the reality of the supremacy of Christ and the truth that was in that song that we poured a lot into and then we poured a lot into the music too.

36:15

And then I laughed because I still know people that play there and the bassist didn't play the bass line that I wrote for the song and I was like, how dare you?

36:23

You had one chance to play it. It's not that hard. Anyway. But it's just it's like,

36:28

I want us to do both. And I want us just to do better. I want us to write better songs and of which

36:35

I think you guys should get I don't know if you know them yet. The Journey Worship Co. from Tennessee. They're really great. They're from Journey Church and they're trying to do the same thing.

36:43

They're trying to write better worship songs and they have this amazing song called Come to the Lord. I had the guy on talking about it.

36:50

And they they went against what people usually do in a song where they just throw some general issue you wrestle with like anxiety or depression and it was just the sadness and God's here.

37:00

And it was just like, hey, if your marriage is struggling in the song, it was like if your marriage is struggling, come to the Lord. If you're weary from from sinning, come to the

37:09

Lord. Right? And it's just this like it's this opportunity for people to identify kind of what we're saying like culturally identify today where your shortcoming is and now just come to the

37:20

Lord with it. Right? Because that's the beauty of our faith in Christ is it boils down to you're not enough.

37:26

Like you said, right? You don't have the answers. You're not enough. It's not about you. It's about him.

37:32

Worship is about him. So just come to him today. And the only issue too that I have with that sometimes is when that's the theme month in and month out.

37:42

Yes. Amen. Like get your breakthrough. He's he's enough for you. I hate that word. Right? Like, the only problem with that is, is who do you have to tell that God is good and God is going to provide for you in a very immature new

37:58

Christian. That's who doesn't understand that. That should be, you know, month three, you should be passed.

38:05

God will provide for me as of who he is. Because when you were regenerated, you understood

38:10

I was a wretched sinner, but now I'm saved by grace. So you have these churches that are singing this month in a month out year in and year out and you almost see an immaturity in the congregation that they can't get past that the relationship with Christ is no more close than if I get into trouble or something happens, hopefully he'll work it out for me.

38:32

Right? Where, you know, I want to sing, you know, Charles Spurgeon saying the sovereignty of God is the pillow on which

38:39

I lay my head when, you know what I mean? When the, when the sea, when the sea billows roll and it's like, that's what we have to get past that in corporate worship to almost like an immature or a vague or a dumb down or a milk kind of, well,

38:53

I mean, Paul talks about it, right? He's like, right. Milk versus me, but you gotta get to the meat, dude. You gotta get the protein.

38:59

Like I said, the steak. And it's like, that's my, that's what I really hope for. When I look at Western Christian church, kinda generally speaking,

39:08

I think we're more on that side. Yeah. It was perpetual, you know, God's going to help me out of something.

39:14

And it's like, man, we got to get over that. God is so much more than that. You got to get, he's bigger than our circumstance. Yeah. It doesn't matter what my circumstance is, man.

39:21

And he could take my life tomorrow. He, I owe him nothing. He owes me nothing and it's good and it's well with my soul, you know?

39:28

Well, you owe him your life, but yeah, I said it backwards. Yeah. I got going there. Yeah. But I think you're hitting it on, like you're hitting the nail on the head because I think the, the issue that goes to that too.

39:41

And I said this when I was talking about, this is my father's world is we have stopped being wowed by God and what he's done through everything he's done.

39:50

Right. And so we're just more consumed with what we're doing. And if we're more consumed with what we're doing and what we're doing now is bigger than the wonder of our creator, then of course, that's going to take precedent over God.

40:02

And I think that's part of it. Because I think there are, there are people that have been misguided by their selfishness and their, their me centeredness, right.

40:09

But they've been trained, like you said, by pastors that are just doing me theology. And I feel, I feel so bad for those people on, in worship services because their circumstance bigger than God, because they believe their life is bigger than the

40:23

Lord. And they're not looking at as the author of this is my father's world goes like you're in rustling grass.

40:29

I hear you pass like everything you've made. You've, that's you. Right. So how, like how then in the third stanza, he goes, then how could, why could my heart be sad?

40:37

That's where you get to then where you're like, well, yeah, how could my heart be sad? He created everything. And if he created everything, and his hand has wrought everything as the author says, then why would my heart be sad?

40:48

Right. Don't get there. If you have the me theology, like you guys were talking about. So I think it's so spot on spot on.

40:54

Yeah. You're rightly setting up who God is and who we are. Yep. That song. And I think every worship song should try to do that in some way or another rightly always telling us who

41:05

God is and who we are. And I mean, and also just, just to nail this point down again,

41:13

I mean, Durbin, Jeff Durbin, it was either Durbin or it was Jeremiah Roberts.

41:19

I can't remember who said it to us. But he, they were just like, look, you could start a podcast and for a year and a half talk theology.

41:27

But what usually happens to those podcasts it once, you know, the year and a half mark shows up, then they kind of just fizzle, you know, and it's like, is there anything wrong with talking theology?

41:37

No. And Greg and I, we talk about it all the time. At the same time, you can bring in, you know, all these different subjects, all, you know, all these different things that are, that are going on in the world and actually talk about these things.

41:53

Yeah. And, you know, and that's something that, you know, we've, we've ran across on this podcast.

41:58

I mean, we talk about so many different subjects and bring up actual world events, but those pastors that do shy away from actual, you know, conversations, actual preaching about what's going on in the world and not afraid to stand up there and use

42:16

God's Word to teach, you know, is what we need in the church right now.

42:23

Yeah, it seems to be more fluff from those mega churches than anything.

42:28

It's about, you know, the breakthrough and the me gospel and all those, all those other Yeah. I remember this, this week

42:36

I was presenting to, I was doing like a guest lecture for someone for Liberty University. And I was, they were asking me to do a worship leader as counselor.

42:44

So they're walking through like worship leader as a quipper, worship leader as counselor, worship leader as, I think a couple other things.

42:50

So, and I actually got my master's in counseling. Oh, and well, thank you.

42:55

I'm not an internationally touring musician. So, and I'm not a commissioner, so I can't. County commissioner, baby.

43:01

I'm like, put me down here and you guys up here. No, me, you, me, you.

43:07

That really is. That's awesome. But what was, I, I genuinely thought you were going to do sheesh.

43:18

Anyway, that was a drop from Jason. That's him doing that. So I did the, we were talking about like what you do as a counselor, as a worship leader, like how you're going to, and I said,

43:34

I don't envy you guys right now. Cause as you're going to enter into worship leading, kind of like you were talking about before, right?

43:39

Like you have to be really focused on the congregation and the

43:44

Lord. Like you can't just mull your way through it. You can't just lackadaisically go through this. And you guys are going to be facing things like current, current cultural events.

43:54

So whether it's the riots in last summer, or it's the mandates of this summer, right. And this year, right.

44:00

Like it's not your job to sway people either side, but it is your job to point people back to the

44:05

Lord. Yeah. So when people come into your, your green room or whatever, your practice, and they want to start talking about whatever, it doesn't matter what side you land on, like you have to remind people,

44:15

Hey, why would you be afraid of what's going on in the world? Jesus has already overcome it. You have to remind them of that. Right.

44:21

Like Romans. Yes. Anyway, why, like why

44:28

I said, why be, now you got me thrown off because you got me spun off about that.

44:35

No, and I was also saying, it's not the dark side talking about, it's a good side.

44:42

It's the more happy side. And you really threw me off. Sorry, go ahead.

44:47

No, no, no, no, no, you're right. The kids in the class. Yeah. And we were talking about like, so you can't the over Jesus has overcome the world.

44:55

The other thing though, too, is like, if you look at the world and it's crazy and you're fresh, like, how do we keep running to eat?

45:00

Like what the problem of evil in the world, Romans, like nonce righteous. Why are you surprised by this?

45:08

Remind people of the truth that's in the word and then refocus them on the common goal, which is on the

45:13

Lord. Right. So it wasn't, Hey, you're counseling people to not be whatever anti -vax, who cares?

45:18

You're counseling them to go back to the whole council of God, which is his word. You know, don't, don't buy in.

45:25

Yeah. Like don't buy into what the world wants you to do. And like you said, there's a balance though, between preaching at what's going on in the culture and letting the culture dictate where your church goes by like, that's what is the temperature of what you do on a

45:38

Sunday. And the same thing with the music, right? Like what we're doing right now in the grace collective for this next album, we were just kind of really convicted by, so me convicted by counseling.

45:48

How many times was it in a counseling session where I just wish I had us like a scripture to give to them.

45:54

And then a song that was like, boom, because you guys know the power of music with like lyrics and melody really married together.

46:01

Well, God created it for a reason. And I was like, so we just started writing songs and going back through songs that we've written, like, okay, what would

46:10

I want to say to a counselee that's wrestling with doubting that God is sovereign over this area of my life?

46:18

And like, okay, now let's go from that perspective. What's the truth in scripture that rebutts that, you know, and it's been really fun to kind of approach songwriting from that perspective, rather than like you guys, we've talked about like feelings, right?

46:30

Or, you know, it's more, what would you say to someone who's wrestling with this and you need to give them the truth of the word?

46:36

How can you say that clearly and effectively? So, and I think we need more of that. We need more people that care that way about their church.

46:42

Yeah. Yeah. I would just say too, like, I don't want anyone to think that's listening. I'm like anti -feelings either.

46:48

Like God. You so are though. Yeah, you are. You know, it's so funny when you're reformed. You've told your kids to repress. You have to redefine every, you have to like define stuff just to make sure, like,

46:57

I'm not saying emotions are bad. But I don't know if we necessarily lead with that. And I don't know if we necessarily use that to entrust in that first, right?

47:06

Jeremiah says heart's deceitful. It's blah, blah, blah. Right. I can't believe I just blah, blah, blah. Yeah, you did.

47:11

I'm sorry. Forgive me. Wow. Wow. Heathen. But yeah, I don't know if we lead with that.

47:16

And that's the problem is we lead with emotion. We lead with feeling. We trust in that. We go, well, if it makes me feel a certain way, it's good.

47:23

If it makes me feel another way, it's bad. And that's where it kind of, you know, gets me. Don't you wish you didn't have to caveat? Don't you hate caveating?

47:29

I hate caveating and prefacing. Yeah. Yeah. It's the most annoying thing where you have to say, well, I'm not saying.

47:35

Right. Oh, that's caviar. Oh, whoops. Yeah. Oh, man.

47:43

Edit that out. No, keep it. Totally. I'll keep it. I have done so many bad intros on my podcast.

47:49

I keep it. I keep all of them. Yeah, we have one too. So, well, what else?

47:55

I mean, we've kind of touched on a bunch of stuff. I know we're getting pretty long on our podcast. I mean, I've enjoyed every conversation we've had so far with this.

48:04

Like what would you use? What would be if you're, so I've got listeners probably that are all over the place, right?

48:10

They listen to Elevation. They also listen to Matt Papa, Matt Boswell, Sovereign Grace, right?

48:15

Places like that. Like what would be if you could say something to them? One thing to everyone who just is not consuming, but partaking in corporate worship and listening to worship music, like what would you say to them?

48:30

I know that's a big ask. Holy cow. Yeah. What would we say to them in what aspect?

48:35

What are you asking? Yeah, like clarify that. From your perspective of what you guys on your podcast, what you care about, what's important to you, what would you want to be important to people who are maybe trying to re -examine how they look at worship music?

48:50

I think, well, I'll try. I'll try this. We'll probably have close ones. But we will.

48:57

I'm on the same page as everyone else with lyrically, you know, we really have to watch the words and just understand why we worship.

49:12

You know, we don't worship, you know, to get that breakthrough all the time, you know, and like it's all about us or whatever.

49:21

I think what Dr. Sam Storm said that was really interesting. You know, he was saying that you could sing one or two of Bethel songs.

49:36

And I'm not trying to be an apologist right now for Bethel, but there are certain songs,

49:43

I guess, you know, you could probably find with some Bethel song, whatever, that might be fine, right?

49:54

Yeah, there's a few out there. There's a few. I am not saying, you know, like, get out there and get the new

50:01

Bethel record. Like, not what I'm saying. Go Gravesoak to it. You know, buy the

50:07

CD and Gravesoak at the same time. That's right. And just know that you're a mini God. And why do we get like a redneck voice every time?

50:15

I do the same thing, too. Like when we're stupid. Why do I do that? Yeah, right. Sorry for all our guys down south.

50:20

We love you. But all I'm trying to say is, I guess, just like, look at the lyrics that you're singing, you know, like, realize that we're really just trying to focus on Christ whenever it is worshipful.

50:34

And you know what? Like, I brought this up, too. If you guys go to our show, you're going to hear everything that I'm saying right now is on that show.

50:43

But I did ask Dr. Storms if, well, okay, well, then what if Led Zeppelin wrote one song that was, you know,

50:52

Christ centered? Right. What if the Beatles wrote a song that was Christ centered or Bob Dylan or whatever? And I know

50:57

Bob Dylan did. Or as vague as some of those worship songs. Right. That's a really good point. What about Cat Williams?

51:03

I mean, he has some studies. Do we, you know, right. Do we, you know, can we throw those in? Can we throw those in?

51:09

And he was just like, no, you can't throw those in. And I'm just like, well, I know that was probably, you know, where he was like, all right,

51:16

I'm getting off of here. I'm not talking to you guys ever again. No, it didn't get that bad, but it was getting a little frustrated. But yeah, that's something that I would bring it to.

51:25

So just to add something to what you said, it amazes me that the U .S. federal government in all of its horribleness and trying to legislate everything understands that we have to put limits on types of words and warnings on words for secular music.

51:43

But the church can't understand that same concept. Yeah, right. So, like, we literally had

51:50

D Snyder. Was it was it was it Snyder taken down? Yeah. Taken down Al Gore in the 80s and 90s.

51:58

Remember that about the labels and this? And it's like, but churches don't understand that. So I'm with you, Jason. Like, we need to know what we're singing.

52:05

The words we're saying are important. I would probably say if there was one thing that I would tell listeners that are going,

52:11

I need to reexamine how I'm worshiping is we need to bring back holiness into worship.

52:18

We need to understand what holiness means. And repentance. And repentance. And whoops. No, absolutely.

52:24

Like, literally, I've asked people, what does holiness mean? They're like, oh, it means like living right. Or it means like not sinning.

52:30

And it's like no holiness. Holiness means set apart. It means unique. It means one of a kind untouched.

52:36

That is who God is. And we need to approach worship in the throne that way. We need to understand when we come in on a

52:43

Sunday, or if it's a Monday afternoon and you're 15 minute break and you're worshiping the Lord, you can worship the

52:48

Lord anywhere. But, you know, for this argument, we're talking about corporate worship. Like we have to bring back holiness and understand what it is.

52:56

And I think that we're just too flippant with worship. I just do. It's a serious, serious matter because we are going to be judged one day.

53:04

We will get to heaven. And the first thing the Lord is going to go around. He's going to go away. What did you say? I said in my name, because we got enough.

53:10

The Lord's going around a lot of that stuff. Lord told me this. Lord told me that. I feel the Lord saying this. He needs to go. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

53:15

I didn't say that. And two, he's going to go, wait, how did you worship me? Because I distinctly told you to worship me in spirit and in truth.

53:21

And you were doing neither one of those things when you were there on Sunday. You needed, like you said, recharge your batteries, you know, sing a song because it sounds aesthetically pleasing to my ears.

53:32

It's like, yeah, bring back the heaviness and the holiness of what it is. And that's not saying we can't walk away feeling blessed, right?

53:38

Like, that's the whole awesomeness of worship. We bless the Lord, and it blesses us to bless the

53:43

Lord. It created us that way. And it said, we go in going, we want to be blessed. We want something out of this.

53:49

Oh, you're going to get something out of it. Sometimes it's not the thing that you want. You might get your flesh cut in worship, but that's what you needed.

53:55

And that's what you walk away with. So it's like, that'll preach. Are you reformed? It sounds reformed.

54:02

Yeah. Let's just bring back holiness. Yeah, yeah. Amen. Let's not play games anymore. Amen. Well, yeah. And you're hitting the nail on the head when it comes to the holiness, because we've stopped caring about personal holiness when we approach

54:13

Sunday morning too, right? Like, one of my favorite verses that I don't think people put in, kind of married to corporate worship on a

54:20

Sunday morning, is the verse about not letting the sun go down on your anger. And what he talks about in the scripture, he says, drop your offering at the altar, which to me, it translates to today.

54:33

Why are you coming to Sunday morning worship, acting like you're worshiping the God and you're giving him something, when in reality, he's not even listening to you because you have bitterness and anger and resentment towards your brother and your heart.

54:46

Come on, preach it, brother. And you haven't done anything. David said, with sin hidden in my heart, you could not hear my prayer.

54:51

Yeah, exactly. You're slamming on the head. We don't, and that's where that comes from. That's where the lack of appreciation for God's holiness is.

54:58

Because if we really saw God as holy, then we would understand that we're not. And we would take those scriptures seriously.

55:04

When it says drop your offering, who would actually do that? I, even among reformed brethren of mine,

55:10

I doubt we would have a lot of people who like, honestly have an issue with someone, would actually drop the offering at the altar and make amends, like as Roman says, as much as it depends on you live at peace.

55:22

I mean, you're convicting me right now, just by saying that, by me thinking about that. Like I have to, like we're married.

55:28

How many times have we taken our wives to church and not made right the night before, right?

55:34

And then we were expecting to lead our families on a Sunday morning saying, hey, Sunday morning's the Lord's day.

55:39

It's set apart. We need to take this seriously. Like we're full of BS because we're actually not taking it seriously.

55:44

So like, I just think about that a lot when I've been, God's been convicting me of that, right? I led worship in that mindset of, ah, well, you know, like I got, it's my job.

55:54

I can't take a day off because my heart's not right. And in reality, God's like, I didn't create the worship pastor position so that you're paid and you just show up and this is your job.

56:04

I didn't create that. God didn't create that so that that's what we do. God created, our whole goal was to give him glory.

56:12

And we've done this and we've created more of these positions. And that's totally fine. But we can't put the job above, like what you said, which is our ultimate goal is

56:21

God's glory. And we have to appreciate that. And we have to care about holiness as a result. Sorry, you got me on that when you talked to me.

56:26

That's awesome. No, I love it. I just love that. I just love the fact that like you made me think like King David got up to heaven and was like, what

56:33

God, you're paying those guys now. Yeah. I played for free for King Saul. I like, are you kidding?

56:39

He almost killed me. You're talking about how much do they get paid at Elevation?

56:46

They pay the musicians. Yeah. Not even the worship leaders. Unlimited coffee. They get paid in Yeezys.

56:58

Yeah, comfortable shoes. They really are. I wish I had bought them when they first came out.

57:03

Okay, we're at basically an hour. And I feel bad for your listeners in mind. I don't know how long you guys typically go for.

57:10

Yeah, 30, 40. We started out going longer. We just noticed everyone just quit listening after 40 minutes. So we're like, we'll keep it to 40.

57:17

Yeah, exactly. It's so hard because you have such good conversations with some people. Yeah, no, absolutely.

57:23

I'm sorry. This was good, man. Yeah, I appreciate you. Thank you. Okay, so where can they find you? Obviously, you said this, but do you guys have any personal accounts you want people to follow?

57:31

Obviously, the Dead Men Walking podcast on Instagram. Obviously, your Spotify, Apple, every type of streaming service for you guys for your podcast.

57:40

But any other places? Oh, I mean, Instagram, Facebook website, dmwpodcast .com

57:47

is the website. But I mean, if you just Google Dead Men Walking, which funny story,

57:52

I met the gentleman that has dead man walking ministries. I said, we got a real kind of queen vanilla ice thing going here.

58:02

Yeah, I apologize for where there's like one letter off, but I didn't steal it. You know, he's like, no, no, it's cool. We're friends now.

58:08

So it's not dead man. It's dead man based on Ephesians two. He was going to go with dead mans. But who's mans is this?

58:17

You said dead? No, that's what ours was going to be called. It was going to be called Dead Man's Walking.

58:22

Oof. No. But yeah, so Dead Man Walking podcast, you Google it, you'll come up.

58:28

But we appreciate it. And then for everyone else listening, shout out yours, too. So we know we're all yours. Yeah.

58:34

So the Theology of Music podcast is on all streaming platforms.

58:39

You can follow us on Instagram. You can also support financially through buymeacoffee .com slash Theology of Music.

58:44

If you want to become a subscriber. What I'm trying to do is because I love these conversations is I know they sometimes go long and I'm trying to put like, you know, a second half behind a little bit of a paywall.

58:53

So because I don't want to stop the conversations. But, you know, like you said, people don't listen past 40. Yeah. You also follow my worship group,

59:01

The Grace Collective. Same thing with your Dead Man Walking podcast. If you put Grace Collective, it's some random

59:06

Ohio youth group that does EDM songs. So please don't do that. It's The Grace Collective on Spotify.

59:13

I've got three albums, did one through Colossians, one through Romans recently. And then we're working on a fourth album right now.

59:20

And then, yeah, you just follow. I mean, if you want to follow me on Instagram, my name, but yeah, follow the podcast.

59:25

And yeah, thank you guys. This was, I just was a ton of fun. Absolutely. And can I just say, man, on your

59:31

Instagram account, you are a blessed man. You've got a beautiful young family there, man. God has been good to you.

59:37

I really enjoy these pictures. I love to see men of God taking care of their family and being the men of God that they're supposed to be.

59:45

Fruitful and multiply. Fruitful and multiply too. Absolutely. That's how we win the culture war. That's right.

59:51

I would have more, but money is diapers that cost a lot of money. God will take care of it.

59:57

He takes care of the sparrows. He's going to take care of your children. You know what? I'm going to name it then. I'm going to name it. God, send me diapers like manna from heaven.

01:00:05

I want money. Give me those pampers, Lord. To me. I thought he was going to name his kid

01:00:10

Sparrow. That's what I thought he meant. I was like, that's kind of a cool name. Hey, which album should I get on The Grace Collective?

01:00:16

Oh, I got three right here. He's got the album up. I think Kingdom of Your Son is probably the best.

01:00:23

The last one is This Is Not the End. We wrote that from Romans. I think it was good.

01:00:29

I think we just bit off a little bit more than we could chew with Romans. I was transitioning out of ministry, moving, and we just rushed the editing process and the mixing process.

01:00:41

So there was just a little like the mixes just aren't good. You as a musician yourself, if you know the mix isn't good, you don't want people to listen to the song.

01:00:49

It could still be really good, but you know that's not as good as it could be. You're like, just listen to the other one. My ears were tired.

01:00:56

My ears were tired. Well, this was cool. This was, I think, our first ever kind of crossover episode.

01:01:02

I think we're going to talk about this and probably throw this up or at least patch it up on our feed.

01:01:07

And we'll make sure we tag in it. And I never say no to second times.

01:01:13

I always like a second date. So it'll happen. His wife was like, what?

01:01:22

We didn't have a second date. I'm teaching your listeners who

01:01:28

I really am. Anyway, thank you guys so much. I'm obviously going to end the recording on my end soon, but thank you guys so much for this.

01:01:34

Thanks again. You know, I hope you guys have a wonderful. I wish this to every single person that comes to my podcast. I hope you have a wonderful Lord's day.

01:01:40

I hope you guys just enjoy worshiping together corporately on a Sunday. And then, you know, as you bless, like you said, you're blessed too.