JW Caller in London

Jehovah’s Witnesses and the 144,000 in Heaven

Peter on the line. Peter, welcome to the program. Where are you ringing from tonight? Hello. Hello, Peter. Where are you ringing from? We're Wickham in Essex. Wickham in Essex, all right. Well, we're delighted to have you.

Thank you. Now, where do you stand on this issue tonight? Well, I'm a Jehovah's Witness.

Right. And you're talking about the nation of Israel and the God's chosen people. Yeah. Well, they were, but God rejected the fleshly nation of Israel. Now he's dealing with a spiritual nation of Israel, 144 ,000 in heaven.

So the fleshly Israel, God has rejected. Nothing to do with them because...

If I could address Peter... This is Dr. James White speaking, Peter. Hello, yes.

Hello, Peter. When you say that the 144 ,000 are in heaven, I would point out to you that even in the New World Translation of Jehovah's Witnesses, that the great crowd is in heaven in Revelation chapter 7, and that the interpretation that has been provided to you by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, where you have 144 ,000 anointed Christians, and these are the only people...

Bought from the earth. Yes, these are the only people who truly are in the new covenant, who are truly justified and things like that. Not only is not what the society has always taught, but it's directly opposite of what the scriptures teach.

Because this distinction that is made where you have the anointed class, and then you have the great crowd, is not a biblical distinction. Either you are in Christ, either you are spiritually alive, or you're not in Christ and you're spiritually dead.

The great crowd are going to live on the earth forever.

Well, that's what the Watchtower Society teaches. That's what the Bible says. That's what the Watchtower Society teaches. But Hebrews chapter 7 shows us the great crowd is actually in heaven. Oh, no, no, no.

Yes, actually, if you look at the Greek, it's very, very clear that the great crowd is in heaven. So, the attachment that the Watchtower Society has attached to that is just as false as when the Watchtower Society identifies Jesus Christ as Michael the Archangel, the first and greatest of all creation.

It's Jesus. That's what the Watchtower Society teaches. And likewise, when they say that the Holy Spirit of God is an impersonal active force, rather than the one who speaks in the book of Acts and sends Paul and Barnabas and is very personal.

So, I would strongly encourage you to go to... Can I mention a website? Revelation chapter 7, when you look at the great crowd, you will notice what it says concerning where they are located. Do you have a...

It's sort of difficult to do this over a phone line, but do you have a Kingdom Interlinear translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures published? I do, yes. Okay, look at the Greek words that are used in the Interlinear and you will notice that they are the words that indicate that they are in the inner temple.

Not the outer courts, but the inner temple. The Society has actually deceived people about that in the past in its publications. I'd encourage you, check out the words for yourself. And if you would, Peter...

Please look into it. And go to our website, www .aomin .org. And you will find a section there that I've written a number of things on Jehovah's Witnesses. And a couple of years ago, I had the opportunity of debating a man by the name of Greg Stafford, who is a Jehovah's Witness apologist on what the Bible teaches concerning the deity of Christ.

And that's available online. You can listen to it in MP3 format. And I'd encourage you to check these things out, because I honestly believe to you, say to you, that what the Watchtower Society is presenting to you is not the Gospel of Christ.

And a Jesus who is but Michael the Archangel will never be able to save you.

The New World Translation and the Deity of Christ

Well, the New World Translation is a very accurate translation. I would say just the opposite.

The Watchtower Society is. Peter, if you'll look into the history of the New World Translation, you will discover that it was translated by the Watchtower Society. The only person who had any training in biblical languages in the New World Translation, had two years of classical Greek.

It was not done by scholars. And it purposefully misrepresents the Bible. I've documented this many, many times. John 1 .1, John 8 .58, Colossians 2 .9. They're all mistranslations on the part of the Watchtower Society.

So, check it out. Listen to the other side as well, and see if their arguments really stand up.

The Cross, the Nails, and the Meaning of stauros

Peter, go on. One last question, Peter, and then we're going to move on.

Do you believe that Jesus was put to death on a cross?

Actually, given the fact that Thomas says he wants to see the print of the nails, plural, in his hands, how could, as the Watchtower Society says, and some people listening may understand. Let me explain here.

The Watchtower Society says that Jesus died on a torture stake, a single upright beam, and not upon a cross. The problem is that Thomas says that he wants to see the prints of the nails, plural. There would only be one nail if his hands were just simply over his head.

Multiple nails demonstrate that there was the crossbar that was involved, and was classically involved, and, in fact, archaeologically has been demonstrated to have been a part of the normal form of crucifixion outside of Jerusalem in the first century.

Peter. The word used was staros. The word used was staros. The Greek term staros is classically used of cross, sir. I'm currently getting prepared to... Sir, I've taught it seven times longer than anyone on the New World Translation Committee even took it, so there's a bit of a problem there.

Peter, I think it would be good if you perhaps in the morning rang up the studio and left your name and telephone number, and maybe sometimes we need to have a longer debate with you. But for tonight, I think that we'll leave it at that.

I know that if Howard was here, he'd love to be debating with you because he has a background where he had some involvement in the Jehovah Witnesses, and he's already telling me in my ear, wasn't there back in the 80s some falling away from Jehovah Witnesses, somebody called Brother Francis, I think it was, and a France and a...

Raymond Franz is the name, and he's probably referring to the book Crisis of Conscience. All right.

Well, Peter, bless you. We do pray blessings upon you, and thank you very much for ringing up and talking tonight.