December 20, 2018 Show with Dr. William Webster and Rev. David T. King on “The Lie of Rome that Sola Scriptura Was Invented by the Reformers” (Part Two)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 20th day of December 2018 and I am so delighted to have part two of a fascinating discussion we began last

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Wednesday on the 12th of December. Today we have Dr. William Webster and Rev.

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David T. King returning for part two of the lie of Rome that sola scriptura was invented by the reformers.

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Dr. William Webster is pastor of Grace Bible Church of Battleground, Washington and founder of Christian Resources and Rev.

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David T. King is an ordained minister having served in the Presbyterian Church in America denomination otherwise known as the

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PCA and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church otherwise known as the OPC and he is the co -author with Dr.

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William Webster of the three -volume monumental massive work Holy Scripture, the

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Ground and Pillar of our Faith and it's my honor and privilege to welcome back Dr.

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William Webster and Rev. David T. King back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Thank you

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Chris. It's great to have you both on the program and our email address for anybody listening who wants to ask a question it's chrisarnson at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

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If you live outside the USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I would especially love to hear from Roman Catholics today although we will accept questions from Protestants, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Atheists, Agnostics, Sweden, Borginists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and anything that you happen to be we would love to hear from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com with a question for our guests today. First of all let's just do some summary of what we covered the last time you were on for part one of this discussion.

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If you could, David T. King, why don't you just define Sola Scriptura for us?

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Yes, well Sola Scriptura does not mean that all revelation that God has ever disclosed is revealed in Holy Scripture but it does mean that all things that are necessary for our salvation and to the attainment of good works are set forth in Holy Scripture in language that can be understood by the ordinary reader with the aid of the

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Holy Spirit. Sola Scriptura means that the

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Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and practice for the church and that it is the ultimate authority for the adjudication of doctrinal and moral controversy.

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And that word infallible or inerrant is a key phrase or are key phrases or words because we do believe that there are authorities in the church that are beneath the authority of the scriptures and of Christ himself of course.

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We believe that in order for churches to function biblically they have to have elders, overseers, those who have authority over the church, those who the church, the members of the congregation are to submit to.

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And we do also have confessions of faith which are just summaries of what we believe to be biblical truth.

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So there are rules of faith, there are authorities that we believe exist but they are not infallible or inerrant and they can never be put on the same par or override the authority of the scriptures, right?

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Exactly. For instance the Westminster Confession of Faith is what we as Presbyterians would call a norma normans.

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It's a norm that norms. The scripture alone occupies the place of what we would call a norma norma non normata.

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It's the norm that norms but is not normed by any other standard. So it's scripture that norms for us of our confession.

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Our confession is drawn from scripture and then also the authority that the church has is likewise normed by holy scripture.

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You go for example to Hebrews chapter 13 and there in verses 7 and 17 we're told to obey those who have the rule over us and of course that is in that particular context it's speaking of presbyters or elders in the church and we're to submit to them.

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Doesn't mean that they're infallible but it does mean as far as they're following scripture we're to submit to those authorities.

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So sola scriptura does not mean it is the sole authority but it does mean that it is the sole infallible authority.

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And Dr. William Webster you know that many Roman Catholics slander those that believe in sola scriptura and adhere by that watchword of the reformation by saying that we believe that individuals may interpret the scripture any way they choose to and obviously that's an absurdity.

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You would have to be in a real liberal leftist apostate church in order to come up with a conclusion that that was what sola scriptura meant.

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And it's ironic how Roman Catholics will make a claim like that and then be upset when we say that if you are a

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Roman Catholic faithful to the gospel of the council of Trent you're damned.

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So therefore we obviously don't believe you could twist the bible in any way you choose if we're saying that there are people who are damned who profess to be

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Christian. Well you've entered into this a second major issue in this controversy.

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The first is that with respect to sola scriptura is it materially sufficient?

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Is everything that we need contained in the word of God that relates to what

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I need to know about salvation, about who God is, about how

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I am to live my Christian life, how to know him. It's materially sufficient in that sense that everything that I need with respect to salvation and living is contained in the written word of God.

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The other issue is there that comes up in is the issue of interpretation. And what the church of Rome claims is that it alone has the authority and the right and the infallible charism of the spirit of God to rightly correctly interpret the word of God.

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If we are opposed to the church we are opposed to God's infallible institution which has been given to give us a correct understanding of the scriptures.

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That was a claim of the Council of Trent where it basically sets forth in its decree on scripture.

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Scripture itself is not sufficient. It's insufficient on two levels. It's insufficient because the church of Rome has oral apostolic tradition that has been handed down from Christ to the apostles that is still retained in the church and is on a level of authority equal to the written scriptures because it is also divinely revealed.

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It is part of the revelation given by God. Secondly, that we as individuals cannot properly understand the word of God apart from an infallible interpreter which

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Rome claims to be. The problem is that you run to now when you look at the claims can those claims be backed up by fact?

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Is there in fact an oral tradition that's been handed down that is still in existence that somehow the

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Protestant church has missed and therefore this teaching of sola scriptura is from the standpoint of the material aspect of scripture it is opposed to the truth that has always been held in the church that this is a novel teaching.

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Well if you go back in the history of the church you find patristically the church universally held to the teaching that the scriptures are materially sufficient.

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There is no such thing as an oral tradition anymore from the apostles.

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All that they taught orally has been inscripturated and handed down to the church and to believers throughout the ages in the written scriptures.

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Secondly, when you look at the history of interpretation you do not find an infallible interpreter in the church.

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The Roman Catholic church just has a claim. First of all with respect to oral tradition it cannot produce a list of what those traditions are.

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It's just a claim when you ask people to explain what it is we are missing.

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If I somehow do not have the full revelation of scripture what is there that I'm missing?

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They cannot produce it. It doesn't exist. Secondly, you claim to be an infallible interpreter but there is no such thing in existence.

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The Roman Catholic church has never produced an infallible interpretation of scripture.

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It has, by its own definition, interpreted in an infallible sense.

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Even as Roman Catholic authorities like Fittner will admit, a handful of verses.

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It's less than 15. So this claim to be an infallible interpreter doesn't hold water.

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You go back into the teaching of the early church with men like Augustine who give you principles of interpretation and what he's saying is that the ordinary common believer, if he follows the laws of interpretation which he set forth in his trietis de doctrina, you will be able to accurately interpret the word of God.

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So what you find in scripture then, in history, is that there is the historical witness that comes against and is contrary to the claims of the

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Roman Catholic church because the Roman Catholic principle of unanimous consent of the fathers as a principle of interpretation is contradicted by the church itself and its interpretations of scripture.

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On the most important issue that relates to any man or woman living on the face of the earth, which is the gospel, how can

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I know God? How can I know eternal salvation? The fundamental truths of scripture are contradicted by the

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Roman Catholic church itself. Now could you provide for us, both of you in fact, some citations from the patristic evidence which would defend the idea that sola scriptura existed before the reformers used it as a watch word among the church fathers.

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If you could provide us some citations and keep in mind for those of you who are immediately before you even hear these citations, are you going to cry foul and say these are being taken out of context which is the immediate response to any time a protestant will quote from the patristics to reveal that in a certain area these specific church fathers believed in something once thought to be uniquely protestant.

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It happens time and time again, oh you're taking it out of context, well if you get a hold of this three volume set that I mentioned in the beginning of the program,

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Holy Scripture, the ground and pillar of our faith, the three volume,

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I believe it's over 900 pages of data including many patristic quotes that are taken fully in context, one of the reasons why the book is so long and contained in three volumes, you could go there to see that these citations are not cut and paste out of the context, they are fully within an understandable context.

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But if you could Dr. Webster and then Reverend King if you could follow up with some citations.

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Well I'll just give you a church father and some brief quotes that you can easily discover in their writings if you get the books it's all documented.

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Tertullian said I do not admit what you advance of your own apart from scripture. Athanasius said the holy and inspired scriptures are sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

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Harkin he said to the scriptures, Basil of Caesarea said every word and deed should be ratified by the testimony of holy scripture.

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Gregory of Nyssa and these are fourth century fathers, he said that whatever is not supported by the testimony of scripture we reject as false.

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He went on to say in a conversation he had with his sister Macrina and Macrina is considered to be if you have three fathers who are called the

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Cappadocian fathers that's Basil the Great, Gregory of Nyssa and Basil's brother

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Gregory of Nyssa. They also had a sister who was apparently an eminent theologian in her own right.

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She said we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please.

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We make the holy scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet or dogma.

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We necessarily fix our eyes upon that and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.

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Cyril of Jerusalem said concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the faith not even a casual statement must be delivered without the holy scriptures.

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He said in this salvation which we believe it depends not on ingenious reasonings but of a demonstration of the holy scriptures.

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He said unless you learn from the holy scriptures what I am saying to you do not accept or receive anything which

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I teach you unless it can be confirmed from the written scriptures.

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Basil the Great says this about those who hear the teaching of those in the church.

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Those hearers who are instructed in the scriptures should examine what is said by the teachers receiving what is in conformity with the scriptures and rejecting what is opposed to them.

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There's a basic principle of interpretation that the church fathers use of what of it they put it in a simple statement do not violate silence the divine silence of scripture.

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In other words if it's not in scripture it cannot be known and therefore there is no such thing as an oral tradition that is still in existence in the church.

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David T. King do you have any follow -up citations? Well I'm just thinking of one of the first ones that came to my mind is

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John Chrysostom's exposition of 2nd Timothy chapter 3 verses 16 and 17 and he's commenting on the phrase that the man of God may be perfect or complete and Chrysostom says for this is the exhortation of the scripture given that the man of God may be rendered perfect by it and without this therefore he cannot be perfect he says you have the scriptures in place of me if you would learn anything and remember he's writing to Timothy he's writing to not a fellow apostle but surely one who was an apostolic man he's writing to Timothy and if there was ever a time when he would encourage

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Timothy to look to oral tradition for his authority surely he would have said so here this is apparently what we believe to be

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Paul's last epistle and perhaps the last thing he ever penned from his hand and he tells

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Timothy he says you have the scriptures in place of me if you would learn anything you may learn it from them and then

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John Chrysostom goes on to say if he wrote thus to Timothy who was filled with the spirit how much more to us you find over and over again when you explore patristic literature that they are affirming the material sufficiency of scripture they affirm that scripture alone is to be the ultimate infallible adjudicating authority and in other places they also affirm what we would refer to as the formal sufficiency of holy scripture can you define both of those uh the material and formal uh well bill's already referred to material and the material sufficiency means that everything necessary for what were the belief concerning god what were the belief for salvation what were the belief for faith and practice uh materially material sufficiency means all of those things are found in one place or another in holy scripture that scripture has the material necessary to communicate those truths for faith and practice formal sufficiency speaks to the whole issue of purpose purity or clarity that the scriptures are essentially clear in the necessary things uh in fact it was chrysostom who said all the necessary things are clear he made he stated that uh explicitly all the necessary things are clear and it is mind -boggling when you have very learned men brilliant men who are roman catholics some of whom do not appear in their ordinary practice of life in their communication of what they believe they don't appear to be intentionally deceiving people and at the same time you have these catholics over and over and over again saying that the catholic church today would be in harmony with the unanimous consent of the fathers and yet from what i've understood from reading uh from not only uh holy scripture ground and pillar of our faith the three volume set that you both have written but also bills works published by the banner of truth and what i have read by dr james r white and other protestant apologists about the church of rome that there are many many things if not every one of the the uniquely roman teachings uh that are considered to be dogma of the church especially that these are totally absent from the reams of uh written history that we have from the patristic error that these things are not among those things that were the unanimous consent of the fathers is this right uh dr william webster that that you could search high and low through the patristic evidence and the things such as the papacy the existence of a papacy the uh the fact that uh that only the magisterium can uh accurately interpret the scripture and define uh teachings from the scripture and things like the adoration of the elements of the eucharist in fact the perpetuatory sacrifice of the mass itself and uh purgatory and the sacrament of penance and you could go on and on the veneration of the saints uh the sinlessness of mary the perpetual virginity of mary i mean can't you go on and on with the things that are considered the primary things taught by rome and you cannot find them anywhere in the writings of the church fathers well you have to i think you need to make a distinction between what rome would consider primary dogmas and then those that are secondary in nature that are not necessary for salvation whatever the roman catholic church defines as dogma becomes part of the rule of faith and is necessary to be believed for salvation if you read the council of trent and especially vatican one vatican one makes it makes it very clear that it is necessary for salvation that one embraces fully what saving faith means and saving faith can only be defined by the church and your salvation then is directly related to your being in unity with not just any church that professes christ it has to be the roman catholic church because that is the one true church to not be in communion with the roman catholic church in submission to the bishop of rome and fully embracing all the dogmas that are taught by the roman catholic church is to cut oneself off from any possibility of salvation but when you look at these dogmas uh and i mentioned last week the assumption of mary that was defined as dogma in 1950 you find complete silence in the patristic age in an in some kind of an affirming way of the assumption of a couple of fathers who even mentioned the death of mary tell you no one knows what happened to her but the actual teaching itself of the assumption originated with gnosticism even roman catholic mariologists will affirm that fact it was condemned by two bishops of rome in the fifth and sixth centuries as heretical it came later into the church through certain church fathers who were deceived by spurious writings of the gnostic origin of these writings where they thought it was a legitimate church father from the second century and it just made its way over time into the church and into the piety of the church and it's been elevated now to a place of dogma where we are supposed to believe this for salvation it is part of the rule of faith and what the roman catholic church has done is it has added other dogmas to the rule of faith that were never taught in the early church the assumption being one the immaculate conception of mary being another the teaching of papal infallibility which was not defined until 1870 and papal rule which was not defined until 1870 you had the teachings of purgatory which were very late developments of this this notion of a treasury of merit and indulgences you find none of that in the early church and there are all these contradictions where you have the claims that rome is making but then they when you begin to examine the actual historical facts the facts do not support the claims that are being made in fact the roman catholic church contradicts its own principles where for example trent sets forth this principle of unanimous consent that it is unlawful to interpret scripture in any way contrary to the unanimous consent of the fathers well on the most important scripture or passage of scripture relative to the roman catholic church and its authority that being matthew 16 18 the rock of matthew 16 18 and peter's confession when you examine what rome teaches that means that the church is built upon peter personally and then that authority is then communicated to his successors in rome exclusively so that the bishops of rome are now the supreme heads of the church the theological basis for that is matthew 16 18 uh then you have papal infallibility which was added later which is luke 22 32 when you examine the patristic interpretation of those passages none of the church fathers interpret those passages in conformity with the way vatican 1 interprets those passages they teach uniformly that what christ is saying to peter is that you are peter on this rock of your confession that i am the messiah the christ the son of the living god the church will be built and the church the gates of hades will not prevail against that church that is built upon the profession of faith that you have given augustine said christ did not build his church on a man but on peter's confession and that is the consistent patristic interpretation that you find so the very principle that trent enunciates of interpretation is contradicted by the patristic evidence and you find this throughout the history of the roman catholic church and that's why when you look at its teachings on the gospel and what salvation means much of that teaching developed over time some of it is very late in the history of the church and based on the fundamental teachings of the word of god and what the theological terms of salvation mean such as grace and faith and repentance and justification and sanctification these terms are interpreted in a way that is contrary to their biblical meaning now reverend king uh if one were to even just for the sake of giving the benefit of the doubt even though the three of us would disagree with the conclusion that matthew 16 is declaring infallibly that peter is the rock of which christ spoke and therefore peter is the pope even if you were to give the benefit of the doubt to the catholics that peter is the rock i mean as much as i admire dr d .a

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carson i understand that he believes that peter is the rock being spoken of by jesus but dr carson not being catholic uh does not believe in this succession of bishops that come out of that text that is actually very crucial to the whole concept of papacy according to rome there is nothing that could be exegeted from that passage at all that would even give you an inclination of a succession of bishops correct no there's no indication in matthew 16 that uh there was any intention of peter leaving a line of succession uh that would then be known as pope and surely uh there was nothing said there about uh the church of rome uh in fact you know peter went and ministered if we don't know for sure that peter ever made it to rome uh i believe that eventually he did and i believe that the traditions uh indicating that he did eventually make it to rome i believe that there is there's good warrant for those traditions but there's nothing about those traditions that are necessary for faith and belief and there's nothing about peter being in rome that automatically establishes that from there some notion of a papacy is going to be established after all peter ministered in anioch uh before he ever went to rome and you don't see uh any papacy uh that that began uh in antioch with with the ministry of peter there and as i've often thought when peter sat down and he wrote the epistle to the romans um and he takes a great deal of time at the end of that particular epistle to various uh saints in rome and uh he mentions a great many people uh whose names for the most part are lost to history but he never mentions peter uh he never uh pays any respect to peter and of course ambrosiaster tells us that um the church in rome was probably established without the miracles or the uh ministry of any apostle we have to go to our there are contradictory traditions uh respecting that i would like to say also uh about the the dogma of the perpetual virginity of mary could you pick up on that when we return can you pick up on that when we return from our first break sure just just make it make a note that we're going to pick it up on the of mary if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question uh for dr william webster or reverend david t king on the issue that we are discussing today the lie of rome that the reformers invented sola scriptura our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnz and gmail .com please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the usa and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away god willing we will be right back with more of dr william webster and david t king after these messages from our sponsors chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a master's degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafuco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chris arnzen at gmail .com

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that's chris arnzen at gmail .com james white of alphanamega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle all in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

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that's ptl bible rebinding .com welcome back this is chris arnes and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go or so uh are dr william webster and reverend david t king the co -authors of holy scripture the ground and pillar of our faith a massive groundbreaking monumental three volume set containing over 900 pages of documentation and we are discussing part two of a discussion we began last wednesday on december 12th uh the lie of rome that sola scriptura was invented by the reformers if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and before i forget i just wanted to plug one of william webster's books that was was directly written uh specifically on what we were just talking about before the break which was the claim uh of rome that peter is the rock that jesus was referring to in matthew 16 and that meant and means in the mind of the church of rome that peter was the first pope and that text also in their mind the mind of rome uh includes a succession of infallible bishops that lead up till the present day known as popes and dr webster's book is called the matthew 16 controversy peter and the rock that's the title correct yes and then before the break uh david t king wanted to say something about the perpetual virginity of mary or should i say the claim of rome that mary was perpetually a virgin even after the birth of jesus yes i just wanted to comment on something that we had from um basil assessoria um in one of his homilies on the generation of christ he was addressing uh the verse that we find in matthew 1 and verse 25 where we read that for he that is joseph did not know her mary it says until she gave birth to a son her firstborn and uh basil comments on that he said uh but this could make one suppose that uh mary after uh having offered in all her purity her own service in giving birth to the lord by virtue of you know the intervening work of the holy spirit uh that after that she did she did not refrain from normal conjugal uh relations and he's commenting on that and of course now basil understands he he does believe in the perpetual virginity of mary but then he goes on to deny that belief in perpetual virginity of mary would be anything akin to a dogma of the church a dogma being something necessary to believe for one's salvation and basil says um whether she remained a virgin or not he says that would not have affected the teaching of our religion at all so he's implicitly denying that his dogma he says because mary's virginity was necessary until the service of the incarnation so basil is holding to the virginal conception and birth of the lord jesus christ but he says what happened afterwards need not be investigated in order to affect the doctrine of the mystery so you know here we have uh an early church father from the east uh who's explicitly denying that there's there it's necessary to believe in the perpetual virginity of maybe for salvation he he says it's not necessary for our religion and then just one comment i wanted to make upon uh or something that epiphanius said with respect to uh mary he tells us that no one knows her end no one knows whether you know she remained alive whether she was assumed to heaven he says no one knows her end and surely uh here are men who are a lot closer in time uh to these truths and yet they're denying that these things are necessary for our salvation now uh dr william webster we keep hearing from the both of you about dogmas of rome are things that are necessary to be believed for our salvation your modern roman catholic especially one that was born and raised after vatican ii may be sitting there listening to you saying what on earth are these guys talking about i mean pope francis believes atheists can go to heaven in fact the modern day catechism of the catholic church uh believes that not only protestants are going to heaven but muslims and buddhists and hindus can go to heaven uh so why on earth are these two protestants making the claim that catholics have dogmas that must be believed for one to be saved they they are i'm sure totally baffled by these claims you're making you asking me yeah i did start this the question off with dr webster i'm sorry i'm trying to go back and forth between the two of you so trying to give both of you i got it okay sorry about that now it is uh conferred by the councils if you go back and i don't know just go and pick up a copy of the council of trent the council of trent goes through a very extensive documentation of the roman catholic teaching on salvation and it has promulgated many anathemas against those who would in any way contradict what is being taught on these on the subject of the sacraments the priesthood the church the means of grace of what it means to be saved and how you deal with sin all of these sacraments within the church and they give a positive declaration of the teaching and then they give after each segment a listing of anathemas that they promulgate against those who would in any way contradict what they have been teaching and what they're saying is that this is the truth the saving truth that has been given by god which you must believe in order to be saved these are dogmas uh and there are certain truths that have been promulgated by bishops of rome that are dogma they're the teachings of councils which are infallible teachings that are dogma when they define dogma as such such as vatican one did with the papal teachings and they say explicitly vatican one in particular unless you fully embrace the teachings of the roman catholic church you cannot experience justification and saving and in the experience of salvation with the living god so this this is not something we're making up this is even though with vatican two they refer to protestants as separated brethren that flies in the face of what has been clearly revealed throughout the history of roman catholicism in the 14th century the very beginning of the 14th century monopoly declared and this is considered a dogma it's considered to be an infallible uh ex cathedra teaching of a bishop of rome that no human being can experience salvation who is not subject to the bishop of rome so these are clearly revealed they're there in history uh i appreciate the fact that the church of rome is trying to be a little more conciliatory at vatican ii but that does not in any way negate what has gone before with the official teachings of the church of rome all it demonstrates is a contradictory position so all of these things that we hear uh declared by pope francis and even john paul ii uh and uh perhaps even in between uh when cardinal ratsinger became the pope although i believe he may have been more uh orthodox in the sense that he was more in allegiance to vatican one than the other two that surrounded him uh these these things that we keep hearing uh that we have most of us listening to this show or who are participating in it our whole lives have been spent knowing that the church of rome had open arms to those in religions outside their own i mean i had i have older brothers who were taught by the nuns that it was a mortal sin to even walk through the door of a protestant church but obviously those days have long gone by but when we hear these things when we read the modern day roman catholic catechism that teaches that the muslims and roman catholics together adore the one same true god uh are we to say well these are just novel ideas that have become popular and even if a pope says or writes things like this unless he is declaring these things ex cathedra he is basically just saying or writing or teaching something that is whether he is going to admit it or not or whether roman catholics recognize it or not it is an utter defiance to the actual dogmatic proclamations of rome that must be believed am i explaining this correctly that is true i mean a bishop of rome can be a private theologian and express opinions that are contrary to the dogmatic statements of the church and its teaching i think you see that in the present pope and there are a lot of conservative roman catholics that are very upset about it that doesn't mean he's taught something ex cathedra at this point but where you do have cathedra teaching uh and that has been clearly revealed throughout the history of the church uh no in the history of roman catholicism there it would be anathema to them to suggest as vatican two did that if you're simply sincere and you're a muslim or you're sincere and you're jewish you're sincere as an atheist just following your conscience that somehow the light of god is going to reach you and that he will accept you that runs so contrary and this is where the principle of sola scriptura becomes so clearly revealed as being important because our faith is based upon the revelation of the word of god and it tells us very clearly jesus said i am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me that eliminates every other way the apostle peter said there's salvation and no one else there's no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved and the call of the church is to go into the world to all the cultures of the world to all the nations of the world to proclaim a message of truth that is authoritative that comes against quite often the common teachings of a culture which are contrary to what the word of god teaches but we are called to stand in the truth of that gospel and proclaim it to men and be faithful to that message so this if i could create yes go ahead if i if i could just follow up on on what bill said about our our muslim friends um they do not worship the same god uh john tells us explicitly in this first epistle they they deny that god has ever come in the flesh muslims deny that they mock uh the the whole concept that god could become man and yet john tells us in his epistle that every spirit that does not confess that jesus christ has come into flesh is not of god and he goes on to say that anyone who makes such a denial is of the spirit of antichrist so our muslim friends are are not our brothers right in fact i years ago on the old iron sharpens iron radio program out of long island i had uh my friend david wood debating a psalm zawadi a muslim apologist right there in the studio together and i read from the catholic catechism the citation about muslims adoring the one true god along with the roman catholics and i said do you worship the same god as roman catholics or for that matter anyone who professes to be a christian are you worshiping the same god as christians are and he chuckled and said absolutely not so i mean this this is a figment of rome's imagination modern day rome's imagination and uh i i have a hard time believing that all of these modern roman catholics going back to the mid 20th century would survive uh a tribunal of the church of rome during the days of the council of trent or even perhaps uh much later in history uh that they would survive uh a tribunal having been tried and so on for these beliefs that even the pope today declares uh that they would uh not have been executed for believing these things i mean these things uh would have been viewed as absolutely abhorrent uh by those gathered to the council of trent wouldn't they yeah i guess the the members of the council of trent would would have none of this modern day uh ecumenism that uh even goes beyond what is with in christendom uh council of trent was as they did with so many others would have pronounced an anathema upon all right we have to go to our midway break right now it's a longer than normal break because grace life radio 90 .1

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fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break so that they can localize radio to lake city florida by airing their own public service announcements and commercials so please use this time wisely by writing down questions for our guests dr william webster and reverend david t king about our theme of the lie of rome that sola scriptura was invented by the reformers uh and also please uh write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them because we rely upon our advertisers financial support to exist and they are more likely going to remain our advertisers if you continue to support them and patronize them so please write down their information and write down questions for dr william webster and reverend david t king to chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com as always give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter uh don't go away god willing we are going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors james white here co -founder of alvin omega ministries and occasional guest on iron sharpens iron radio i'm so delighted that my friend chris arnson will be heading down to atlanta for the next g3 conference from january 17th to the 19th 2019 where i'll be joining a very impressive lineup of speakers on the theme a biblical understanding of missions speakers include john piper steve lawson vody baucom mark dever conrad mbewe phil johnson josh vice yours truly and many more i hope you all join chris and me for this phenomenal event for more details go to g3 conference .com

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that's g3 conference .com paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church we are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostle's priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solidrockremodeling .com

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that's solidrockremodeling .com solid rock remodeling bringing new life to your home my name is steve lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for ligonier ministries i serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the master's seminary in los angeles i would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students andy woodard serves as the pastor it's called new covenant church nyc they are a reformed baptist church that meets in midtown manhattan you can find their service times and location on their website which is www .ncc

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.nyc they believe in a sovereign god who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel if you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching which is simply biblical preaching in new york city i'd like to recommend that you visit new covenant church nyc again their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc have a great day i'm dr gary kimbrell patsy bethlehem baptist church in laurel mississippi god tells us in james 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction in the providence of god three years ago i discovered a poor small church outside lusaka zambia in a township called cabanana who are taking care of 24 orphans i found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding what was i to do could i just say god bless you and walk away the situation of the children set heavily upon me as i was praying concerning this need it came to me i trust from the lord to tell the orphans plight to a broader audience the entire need for their clothing food education and some medical services is 73 per month per child if just 50 of us would give 35 a month we could meet the need bethlehem baptist church will pay the fee to get the funds there so if you give a dollar a dollar we'll get to the orphans and seasons of hope and giving will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans please send your gift of any amount to bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com

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again the address is bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com

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thank you Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio hello my name is james renahan and i'm the president of irbs theological seminary in mansfield texas the word of god says if a man desires the office of an overseer he desires a good thing do you have the desire to serve jesus christ in pastoral ministry 20 years ago the institute of reformed baptist studies at westminster seminary california was born for those two decades these institutions worked together to train men for ministry in reformed baptist churches it's been a wonderful partnership now we have advanced our school into an independent seminary offering a full program of courses leading to the master of divinity degree this is irbs theological seminary we believe that the scriptures of the old and new testaments are the inspired and inerrant word of god that jesus christ is god in the flesh who came to save sinners by his life death and resurrection and that the task of the church is to honor and serve the triune god in all things irbs theological seminary is dedicated by god's grace to preparing godly ministers who will be committed to these doctrines do you sense a call to serve jesus christ in his church as a pastor why not consider irbs theological seminary you'll find more information at irbs seminary .org

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that's irbs seminary .org two s's in the middle i hope to hear from you soon god bless you hi i'm buzz taylor frequent co -host with chris arnson on iron shepard's iron radio i would like to introduce you to my good friends todd and patty jennings at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service todd and patty specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone since 1987 the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors their website is cvbbs .com

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browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence as todd and patty work in service to you the church and to christ that's cumberland valley bible book service at cvbbs .com

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that's cvbbs .com let todd and patty know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio and you can call cvbbs .com

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at their toll -free number 800 -656 -0231 800 -656 -0231 monday through friday between 10 a .m

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eastern and 4 30 4 30 p .m eastern time please mention chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio and you'll receive free shipping on all orders of 50 or more uh also i have a few announcements to make about upcoming events that i hope that you will attend uh during the next uh number of weeks that wait await us we have first of all coming up very very soon my iron sharpens iron radio free luncheon for men in ministry leadership that's going to be held thursday january 3rd 11 a .m

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to 2 p .m at the carlisle fire and rescue banquet hall in carlisle pennsylvania my guest speaker is dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary and he is going to be speaking on the meaninglessness of life and the destruction of western society without god this is an event sponsored by battery depot .com

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linbrookbaptist .org and nasbible .com publishers of the new american standard bible and if you are a man in ministry leadership whether you are pastor elder deacon or leader in a parachurch organization this is free to you your lunch is free the message that you will hear from dr tony costa is free and you're also going to be getting free books donated by many christian publishers in the united states and the united kingdom uh you'll probably be leaving with two heavy sacks each of books that i have personally selected from these publishers and nothing is for sale at the arnie turpin's iron radio pastor's luncheon nothing is uh being hidden as far as some kind of ulterior motive or a hidden agenda to try to sell you something this is all just to give men in the ministry a restful and relaxing time a fun fellowship edification from a powerful word from our guest speaker uh free food free gifts and this was at the insistence on of my late wife julie who began these luncheons in the 1990s and uh she did not want there to be any ulterior motives in regard to selling anything or signing somebody up for amway or something this is all just a free event with nothing but the best of motives so that pastors can enjoy themselves for one day and if you'd like to come to the pastor's luncheon just send me an email to chris arnson at gmail .com

01:07:43

chris arnson at gmail .com and put luncheon in the subject line then immediately after that from friday the 4th of january through sunday the 6th of january dr tony costa who will still be in this area in pennsylvania after the luncheon he is going to be speaking at a free bible conference at the first or should i say the enola first church of god in enola pennsylvania dr costa's theme is contending for the faith the church in a post -modern world the thing that separates the conference from my luncheon is that everyone is welcome to the conference whether you are a man woman or child whether you are in leadership or whether you are christian or not you could be an atheist we look forward to in fact many hopefully many non -believers coming to the conference we would like to see the place filled with non -believers well if you would like to attend this three -day conference at the enola first church of god you could call them at 717 -732 -4253 717 -732 -4253 or you could go to their website enola cog .com

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enola cog .com forward slash bible dash conference that's enola cog .com

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forward slash bible dash conference then after that the long -awaited g3 conference is going to be held january 17th through the 19th that's thursday through saturday january 17th to the 19th at the georgia international convention center in college park georgia which is a suburb of atlanta uh they are going to be once again having a an enormous lineup of phenomenal speakers including dr james r white john piper stephen j lawson vody balkan mark dever conrad and bayway tim challis phil johnson of todd friel uh stephen j nichols of the reformation bible college the president of the reformation bible college founded by the late rc sproll and ligonier ministries and many more are on that lineup the theme is going to be uh the uh the true missions uh that is the biblical understanding of missions and if you would like to attend along with me i will be manning for the third year in a row an iron trip and xyron exhibitors booth go to g3 conference .com

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g3 conference .com i would strongly urge you if you have a business uh a parachurch ministry a church or a special event that you want to promote there i would strongly urge you to register for an exhibitors booth while there's still room because they're expecting between four and five thousand people there so go to g3 conference .com

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g3 conference .com last but not least uh the deep south founders conference uh is going to be held january 24th through the 26th in laurel mississippi at the bethlehem baptist church i will be for the very first time manning an exhibitors booth there god willing this will be my first time ever in mississippi at all and the theme is going to be uh sanctification and the speakers include uh rusty reed, gerald henderson, jason goodwin, bobby crenshaw, conrad mbaywe who is the keynote speaker, my favorite pastor or preacher alive on the planet earth uh dr conrad mbaywe a pastor of cobotta baptist church lusaka zambia africa and chancellor of the african christian university if you would like to attend the deep south founders conference january 24th through the 26th go to deepsouthfounders .com

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deepsouthfounders .com and by the way uh i don't know if you heard uh dr kerry kimbrough's ad uh reverend david t king but uh the uh the accent that uh our brother dr kerry kimbrough had a pastor of the bethlehem baptist church in laurel mississippi his southern accent is so thick you sound like a yankee in comparison last but not least if you folks want iron trip and zion radio to remain on the air you don't want us to disappear please go to irontripandzionradio .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line we certainly could use your advertising dollars and that's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guests dr william webster and reverend david t king that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:14:02

chrisarnson at gmail .com give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa and only remain anonymous if your involves a personal and private matter i'm going to go to a couple of listener questions and then i have one on my own about uh the claim by some roman catholic apologists that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy but before i have you address that uh we have cody uh cody uh lives in albany oregon and his question is and thus holy scripture instructs us saying prayer is good with fasting and alms giving and that's from an apocryphal book tobit chapter 20 verse 8 and for he who will give us in the day of judgment a reward for our labors and alms is even in this life a merciful hearer of one who comes to him in prayer associated with good works thus for instance cornelius the centurion when he prayed had a claim to be heard for he was in the habit of doing many alms deeds towards the people and of ever praying to god to this man when he prayed about the ninth hour appeared an angel hearing testimony to his labors and saying cornelius your prayers and your alms are gone up in remembrance before god those prayers quickly ascend to god which the merits of our labors urge upon god thus also rafael the angel was a witness to the constant prayer and the constant good works of tobus tobias i'm sorry saying is honorable to reveal and confess the works of god for when you just didst pray and sarah i did bring the remembrance of your prayers before the holiness of god and when you didst bury the dead in simplicity and because you did not delay to rise up and to leave your dinner you didst go out and cover the dead i was sent to prove you and again god sent me to heal you and sarah your daughter -in -law for i am rafael one of the seven holy angels which stand up and go in and out before the glory of god and tobit chapter 12 verses 12 through 15 uh cyprian ad 250 anti 9c and father's volume 5 pages 456 uh now i'm looking for where his uh does he say have any question in regard to this is what i want to know um i don't see any question uh regarding this well the the basic question is obvious that he is quoting from the apocryphal books or what the roman catholics call the deuterocanonical books and they will say the roman catholics as you know the they will say that the reformers removed these books from the canon of scripture but that isn't the case at all is it let's start with uh dr william webster uh it is not the case at all the in the history of the development of the canon you find many of the church fathers who rejected the apocryphal writings as being authoritative scripture as being canonical in the primary sense there were two concepts of the term canon you'll find this in athanasius for example where he defines the canonical books of the old and new testaments and he rejects the apocrypha of the old testament and he says that the basically the old testament canon consists of 22 hebrew works that's the jewish canon the jewish canon did not include the apocrypha the new catholic encyclopedia affirms that fact athanasius said that you have the primary inspired canonical works from the old testament and then you have these apocryphal works which he said there some of these works are in a secondary sense can be viewed as being part of the canon they're ecclesiastical books but they are only useful for edification they are never to be used for the determination of doctrine or to be used in an adjudicating sense to determine what is right and wrong with respect to controversy in fact uh i think that you may be answer i finally found cody's question i think you may be answering it he said uh he wanted your comments on the belief of the early church fathers in regards to the apocrypha before the time of jerome i have found quotes that seem to support that they saw them as scripture and i will include one of them and i'm assuming that he is referring to ciprian uh yeah anti -nicene father uh because he quotes ciprian after the to the book of tobin right and you do have fathers in the in the early church like ciprian for example and others who believe that the apocrypha was part of the septuagint and was part of scripture on the other hand you have men like athanasius syrilla jerusalem basal the great uh rufinus jerome i mean you go on and on there's a whole list of eminent church fathers who totally disagreed with that perspective and held to the jewish canon jerome makes it clear because he is a hebrew scholar he spent time in palestine with the jews when he was translating the vulgate he rejected the apocrypha as being part of the scriptures and he makes the statement that the church does not receive maccabees or ecclesiasticus or thabit or judah as being canonical they are relegated to that secondary uh sphere of influence where they are considered to be ecclesiastical books but not authoritative augustine and the north african churches of hit within the councils of hippo and carthage they did accept the apocrypha they thought they were part of the septuagint but after jerome and going all the way up through to the time of the reformation the church held to the view of jerome and i i mentioned last week the the bible that was used in the training of theologians throughout the middle ages is called the glossa ordinaria in all the prefaces to the apocrypha it makes the statement that these books are not received as canonical by the church they are useful for purposes of edification cardo kachatin the great opponent of luther in the 16th century wrote a commentary on all the historical books of the old testament he makes the statement that we are not to receive the apocrypha as being canonical we are to understand this term canon is in terms of the way i described it just a moment ago you have proto canonical books and then deutero canonical books and he said that is how we are to understand augustine and the north african councils back in the fourth century in 393 and 397 that they viewed the apocrypha as being canonical in a secondary sense not in a primary sense that is what he says so that is on the very uh threshold of the council of trent which definitively defined for the first time in the history of the church the apocrypha as being part of the canon of scripture it had never been done before before that time again the new catholic encyclopedia explicitly makes that statement so in the patricic age you find varying opinions about the status of the apocrypha it is you find very eminent uh church fathers who disagree with the perspective that you are to receive these as being canonical they followed the jewish canon of 22 books that was the jewish enumeration it would it would correspond to the 39 books that the protestants hold today because of the way they group books together once jerome defined that the uh the true canon the church from then on all the way up to the reformation in the history of the reformation held to a deutero canonical status for the apocrypha it was not canonical gregory the great in fact in making a reference to maccabees makes the statement we receive this book as a means of edification although it is not canonical he makes that statement about the book of maccabees so that's just a brief history then of where the apocrypha falls out in terms of the history of the church when the council of trent defined it as being canonical those apocryphal works they went contrary to the overall history of the of the church well thank you cody and you have won a free copy of william webster's book salvation the bible and roman catholicism compliments of our friends at the united states headquarters of the banner of truth right around the corner from where i'm sitting right now so please make sure you give us your full mailing address there in oregon so that cvbbs .com

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can mail you out the copy of salvation the bible and roman catholicism by dr william webster so therefore from what you just said uh it's clear that the protestants didn't remove the apocrypha from the canon the church of rome is the one that dogmatically inserted them in the canon even though that there was healthy debate for centuries prior to the council of trent about whether the apocryphal books or the were canonical and there was much opposition to them even from jerome being included in the canon so it was really obviously a matter of fact of history that the church of rome is the one that added them that's correct if i'm if i may chris uh from from what bill just said i think it would be very safe to say that belief in the apocrypha as scripture does not represent the catholicity of the early church uh the early church did not universally affirm those books as holy scripture and uh and for for for the uh communion of rome uh the canon was not officially established until the 16th century with trent as you've noted so uh belief in the apocrypha as scripture does not represent the catholicity of the early church and by the way folks uh dr william webster has a separate volume specifically on this issue called the old testament canon and the apocrypha so if you want to find out more information on that you could go to the christian resources website uh and that uh website is christiantruth .com

01:26:44

christiantruth .com uh one thing that may on the surface lend credibility to the church of rome's claim of the canonicity of the apocrypha or deuterocanonical books is that the only copies that we have to my understanding correct me if i'm wrong but the only copies that we have of the septuagint that was the greek old testament or the old testament in greek that even jesus christ used i'm not saying that he used the very copies that we have today i'm just saying that he used obviously the septuagint when he walked the earth now the ones that we have today include the apocrypha am i right on that on the septuagint version yeah i have heard even from those that vociferously oppose the canonicity of the apocrypha uh they will say that i believe in even dr james r white our mutual friend will say that the copies that we have in existence today of the septuagint include the apocrypha and i was just wondering how either of you would explain that the apocrypha basically uh was part of the reading again you you have books that are canonical you have those by the way by uh dr webster your voice is kind of muffled i don't know what your if your voice all right there there you go sorry about that that's okay and if you could continue you have a theory that the septuagint which is a greek translation of the hebrew old testament which was done uh prior to the time of christ uh probably around 250 to 200 bc it originated in alexandria and there is this view that you have two perspectives on the canon of scripture from a jewish perspective you have the palestinian canon which the jews held to in palestine which was comprised of the 22 would they consider 22 books of the old testament writings would be the 39 books that the protestants hold to and then you have the greek speaking jews in alexandria and throughout the greek speaking world who held to a broader canon which the septuagint represents but the fact of the matter is we don't have any idea what the original septuagint consisted of because the only septuagint versions that we possess today are the fragments that are from the fourth and third centuries uh and they do contain the apocrypha but those are church copies of the septuagint after the time of christ during the church age so what that original septuagint looked like we we have no way of knowing other than to say that it's it's a pretty safe bet that the septuagint when it was originally composed did not have the apocrypha because philo who was an alexanderian drew comments and uh comments on all just about all of the old testament books and he never reversed to the apocrypha so it's it's a safe assertion i believe uh supposition to suggest that the septuagint in its original form did not include the apocrypha the apocrypha came later with the church and what you have are these writings that were grouped together uh with the other writings that were canonical and there was no way to distinguish in the way they were written what what was truly canonical as opposed to what was secondary and so you have this division taking place in the church throughout the patristic age the debate going on between those who held to the hebrew canon than those who had it at a more expansive canon and believed that the apocrypha was in fact canonical uh but that is a a church age distinction and debate the jews the jewish church never held to the apocrypha as being part of the right that's a that's a very powerful bit of evidence that smothers everything else because the jews throughout history have been meticulous and painstakingly accurate in that they're passing down of what the hebrew scriptures were what the canon of the hebrew scriptures were and are to this day you find josephus affirming the fact that the jewish canon and you know this is first century it consists of 22 books uh melito assartis was a second century uh church father in the early second century went to uh palestine to determine what the extent of the canon was he said it consists of 22 books it is a jewish hebrew canon uh that is to be distinguished then from the later development that took place with some church fathers who included the apocryphal works in the canon of scripture all right we're going to go to our final break it's going to be much more brief than the last break and i want you to lead off when we come back by answering the charge against protestants by catholics that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy that if you believe that the bible is the sole infallible inerrant authority over the church that that leads to chaos it leads to all kinds of heresies uh erupting uh all kinds of sex springing out of nowhere where it is the it is the fertile ground of the cults i remember hearing marcus grodi once during the journey home the roman catholic program that is dedicated to hearing the testimonies primarily of former protestants but there were also people of other religions who became catholic that they interview and he said that sola scriptura was responsible for the jehovah's witnesses and the mormons and i couldn't help but laugh uh because neither of those groups really practice sola scriptura in any real fashion the the jehovah's witnesses rely upon the watchtower bible and track society which is more like their vatican and the mormons have other books that they even believe are superior translations to the bible uh that they that they follow so it's a ridiculous assertion made by marcus grodi but if you could answer that charge when we come back uh and i have anybody else wants to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

01:34:05

chris arnson at gmail .com as always please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal private matter don't go away we'll be right back after these messages with dr william webster and reverend david t king gotta tell you for my money chris arnson's radio program is just the best iron criticizing i think that's what it's called this is todd friel of wretched radio and tv with phil johnson of grace to you inviting everybody to come to the g3 conference which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country and it is it's a great conference i love it and chris arnson was there last year he's been there i think every year it's great to see him there you and i actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place which is a highlight tons of stuff going on tons of great speakers and no matter where you are in the building you will hear chris arnson's laugh and that's worth the price of admission alone if you would like to join phil me chris and a cavalcade of great preachers so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers and me g3 conference .com

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forward slash podcast that's w for world n for news g for group dot org forward slash podcast linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit liyfc .org

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that's liyfc .org i'm dr gary kimbrough pastor bethlehem baptist church in laurel mississippi god tells us in james 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction in the providence of god three years ago i discovered a poor small church outside lusaka zambia in a township called cabanana who are taking care i found them just at the time when they had lost all their funding what was i to do could i just say god bless you and walk away the situation of the children set heavily upon me as i was praying concerning this need it came to me i trust from the lord to tell the orphans plight to a broader audience the entire need for their clothing food education and some medical services is $73 per month per child if just 50 of us would give $35 a month we could meet the need bethlehem baptist church will pay the fee to get the funds there so if you give a dollar a dollar we'll get to the orphans and the seasons of hope and giving will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans please send your gift of any amount to bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel mississippi 39443 or donate through our website bbclaurel .com

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again the address is bethlehem baptist church 838 reed road laurel mississippi 39443 or bbclaurel .com

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01:43:03

welcome back this is chris oranzen and before i return to our discussion with dr william webster and reverend david t king i just want to remind you please do as much as your christmas shopping as possible while there's still time from solid ground books .com

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and that will also help you to achieve the $50 mark faster in order to get free shipping anyway i just thought i'd let you know that and now we are back with our final segment of today's show uh with dr william webster and reverend david t king co -authors of holy scripture the ground and pillar of our faith this is part two of a discussion we began last week on the 12th of december on the lie of rome that sola scriptura was invented by reformers and i know that both of you have heard the the claim it might have been scott hahn that coined the phrase i'm not sure but that sola scriptura is a blueprint for anarchy that we need their infallible magisterium to accurately exegete the bible to know what the bible is really teaching us because without their infallible magisterium we are utterly hopeless and we will be in chaos now the thing that is quite ironic about that claim and i think that you would both agree and we'll start with you dr webster isn't it true that there are many divisions under the umbrella of roman catholicism that perhaps even exceed those divisions that exist amongst conservative bible believing christians and i and i make that categorization for a reason of bible believing christians because even we would not consider liberal apostate denominations as truly protestant uh we we have a totally different view of the scriptures than those liberal mainline churches do so it's not fair to include them in our ranks but if you're just talking about conservative bible believing protestants as much as we disagree on them we disagree on a lot of i think that the church of rome exceeds us in their differences i mean they have no real basis to make that claim that they have safety in a magisterium where we have chaos in sola scriptura do that well the magisterium changes in their perspectives the magisterium of the early church is not the magisterium of the church of rome today why you know this claim to be infallible we've already brought up the fact that they contradict the interpretation of matthew 16 and link 22 of the patristic age that they they're claiming to be infallible but they contradict the unanimous consent of the fathers a bishop of rome was condemned as a heretic in the seventh century at the third ecumenical council three constantinople they're not infallible they prove by what they do in their teaching as as time has progressed throughout the history of the church in 1950 they elevate this doctrine of the assumption to be a dogma condemned in the early church as being heresy it originated with gnosticism what what am i to follow here if i embrace this supposed church magisterium that is infallible i'm going to embrace the error uh i don't know what they're going to teach you know 50 years from now uh it's constantly changing and that now they held this hold to this view of living tradition where you hold to whatever the church teaches at the present time because the church is infallible and dwelt by the spirit of god so it doesn't matter what was taught in history doesn't matter what is taught in scripture what matters is what the church at this point in time teaches and it's called living tradition and therefore they have now completely repudiated any notion of history of accountability to history of accountability to the word of god no this is what is divisive this is what brings this unity if they have the magisterium tradition in scripture so does orthodoxy where is the orthodox church in the roman catholic church where have they been for at odds with one another so this this appeal to you need us god and our authority and our tradition because otherwise you'll have anarchy what you find throughout the church is anarchy there are violent throughout with respect to the debates that have gone on within the history of the church you find violent disagreement between various schools they get violent bloody and the tradition the authority of the church did not prevent that happening in fact the early church as we have stated and i think as we have proven the universal belief was sola scriptura there was a uh universal belief in the rule of faith which the protestant evangelical church completely agrees with it's the creed that's the that's the patristic understanding of what is apostolic tradition aside from that you have many differing opinions about how to interpret scripture so if you want to talk about anarchy with respect to that nobody agreed on how you interpret scripture individually apart from the rule of faith so the the answer is not going back to rome and a supposed infallible authority the answer is coming back to and this is exactly what the early church said you come back to the head and the source and the ultimate authority over you and truth that is what brings unity when we all agree on this fundamental principle of sola scriptura and the and the interpretations that come out of that the rules of interpretation it's it's the turning away from that principle that promotes anarchy and reverend david g king one of the other absurd reasons to say that without their magisterium there is chaos that they have the key to peace and harmony uh in rome because of their magisterium one of the reasons that's absurd is isn't it true that there have hardly ever in history uh been ex cathedra declarations made that's the first thing and number two is has rome ever really defined dogmatically any verse of the bible well we we hear that rome hasn't but i would like to push this whole thing of uh sola scriptura as being a blueprint for anarchy all the way let's let's examine it in light of the ancient church first of all if you read basel of cesarea his preface on the judgment of god you you read it i'm laughing because it's funny because basel talks about all of the disagreements and all of the divisions within the church of his day and he said that the reason for those divisions if you read his preface to the judgment of god is because people are not following the head of the church whom he says jesus christ and in that preface he says that jesus christ is the only head of the church and he talks about these problems that proceed from lack of belief and embracing that reality he knows nothing of for instance in 1896 leo the 13th came out with this uh salvus cognitum and uh he said that uh one must be in communion with the bishop of rome well if you if you push that back into the early church you've got serious problems you've got someone like uh jerome who uh came into the area of antioch and he sees that antioch this church of antioch has three rival bishops and uh he rejects all three of them he says i know nothing of vitalis i reject maletius i have nothing to do with paulina he that gathers not with you talking the bishop of rome he says he does not of christ is of antichrist now the funny thing about that is this you take chrysostom who was who was his bishop in antioch well it wasn't vitalis who was probably an arian and uh paulinus who was probably considered uh somewhat orthodox but it was the masses in rome who supported paulinus as the rightful bishop however chrysostom was baptized at the hand of maletus he was ordained as a deacon by maletus maletus was the one who presided over the uh third ecumenical council until uh he died suddenly in the midst of that council and then after maletus was philebian who ordained chrysostom as a presbyter by the standards of salvis cognitum chrysostom was not in communion with a roman pontiff for most of his ministry so when you apply that to the early church it's just comical because there was so much division going on in the early church that's such a paradigm uh to try to place it on people today and the other thing is is that what they mean by that is there must be uniformity you must be in uniform you must have the same beliefs as rome we as protestants believe that there can be unity and diversity uh we don't have to be members of the precise same ecclesiastical uh framework we can be we can be baptists we can be presbyterians and yet have intimate communion with one another but rome uh simply wants to put you outside the edifice of the church if you're not in communion with their bishops so this blueprint for anarchy is really one of the most it's the most hypocritical argument i've ever known to be raised against sola scriptura we have uh grady in ashborough north carolina who says why would scholars like charles coast why would scholars like charles colson and j .i

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packer sign a document like evangelicals and catholics together it's oblivious or should i say it's obvious i think that's what he meant to write it's obvious we're still fighting the reformation yeah obviously only those two men can answer that question and one of them is in uh in in heaven charles colson who has departed this earth some time ago but uh this is a problematic thing when you have well -known and beloved evangelical protestants especially j .i

01:55:49

packer a hero of reform theology who would dare sign a document like that i don't have any explanation do you have any comment on that well i do remember one of the evangelical association i'm trying to remember the correct name for it anyway i remember that robert uh godfrey was there and uh he stood up and he rebuked uh j .i

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packer to his face for what he had done in trying to uh make ties to rome like that and john mccarthur and r .c

01:56:26

sproul and the late um d james kennedy the late r .c

01:56:31

sproul and the late d james kennedy years ago i believe it was in the early 90s or was soon after the ect document was forged i can't remember when that was exactly uh but those three men were on the john ankerberg show to vociferously oppose the document and they had a loving rebuke of dr packer for his involvement but anyway have any further comments because we're running out of time yeah well packer does not speak for the as as much as we're respecting he's not our pope he does not speak for all of protest in this any final words uh dr webster oh i would just say you come back to some scripture again and you you evaluate everything people say by the word of god and unfortunately in this issue uh j .i

01:57:20

packer as much as i love packer i do he's been a great help to me but on that issue he's just dead wrong and he actually contradicts many of the things he said and has written previous to that unfortunate time and by the way one of the uh most amazing things i learned today was that the men's hair product very popular in the 1970s vitalis was named after a pope i never knew you're using dry control by vitalis you can't see it but you know it's there for natural for supernatural hair but anyway he was one of the rival bishops in any yacht chris oh okay um but i want to thank both of you for being on the show and i i would love for this to be a monthly visit from the two of you i hope that you could do that or at least a lot more than you have been doing it i i am eager for your return i'm going to send you a calendar of dates that we have available because i want you both to come back i think you work well excellently together in addition to separately but together as a team you're phenomenal uh and i want to remind our listeners that for more information on the three volume set that we've been discussing holy scripture ground and pillar of our faith you could go to christian resources website which is christiantruth .com

01:58:39

christiantruth .com and i want to thank again our friends at the banner of truth who supplied some books that we were giving away during part one and part two of uh today's discussion uh go to banneroftruth .org

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banneroftruth .org and you can always go to cvbbs .com our sponsor cvbbs .com