Does Romans 4 teach Faith Alone??

The fact that he's using Abraham lets us know that he's not talking about works of law. Was Abraham justified apart from works of law? Yeah. He was also justified apart from baptism. But that's ridiculous because that's not even in his context at all.

But we know that Abraham did do works. He did things like leave the land of the Ur of Chaldeans, like you mentioned. He did do things like he was obedient to get circumcised and circumcise his son. He did things like willing to sacrifice his son Isaac on an altar.

So did Abraham do works of obedience? Yes. And guess what Paul is saying. He could have boasted about him if that's what justified him.

Romans 4 and the Doctrine of Justification

Welcome everybody to the Parish Reformed podcast.

I've got again, I've got another guest. Not another guest. Probably the same guy you've seen quite a bit. But we're going to be talking about a little bit of Romans 4. And justification and just the gospel.

We really want to spend some time talking about these things. And it's kind of been a hot topic, not just with us, but everybody. And I think this has been the topic and it always will be. Defending the gospel and the doctrine of justification.

So here's my guest Jeremiah Nortier. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got here and what we're going to talk about. What's on your heart?

Yes, well Tray, thanks for having me on again. So I do an apologetics ministry here in Jonesboro, Arkansas called The Apologetic Dog. And you can find most of my content on my YouTube channel. But I also serve as an elder here at Twelve Five Church with Nathan Hargrave.

And Tray, it's just been a blessing getting to serve alongside with him. And so I just want to encourage your viewers to look forward to more and more content coming out. Tray, you and I both have engaged in public debates.

And so people have asked me, why in the world would you spend time debating these issues and causing division? And I want to encourage people. The Bible tells us to speak the truth in love. And we see that modeled in the book of Acts with the Apostle Paul and Barnabas contending for the gospel against the Judaizers.

And so that's kind of my heart desire, Tray. As I pursue apologetics, I want to guard the truthfulness of the gospel. And avoid irreverent babble or pagan philosophy of knowledge that contradicts itself.

So that's a little bit about me, Tray.

All right. Sounds good. And, you know, we were talking about Ulrich. You're going to name your son Ulrich, right?

Ulrich Zwingli. My wife would never let me do that.

So we were looking at a quote from Ulrich Zwingli. I think it was yesterday. About how my Christian's getting such like, it seems like such battles and such arguments, you know. And Zwingli, all the way back there, the reformer, said it's because we're the ones with true piety.

True piety. You know, a lot of people come across very pious. But true piety is defending the sovereignty of God. Like that's what it is. It's evangelism. It's defending. And it's just loving the doctrines of grace and the gospel, what he's done.

And when you defend those things, like we're commanded to do, like you just said, it rubs people, you know. I mean, look, truth divides always, right? Truth divides from error. So what's the one thing you were wanting to talk about today?

You mentioned Romans 4, correct?

Yeah, like you said, this is becoming a hot topic of controversy. And what we're contending for is that justification comes by faith. And we see this come out, Paul's thesis or grand conclusion of Romans 4 comes out in Romans 5 verse 1.

He says, therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. And this verse, Trey, is so clear of how we have peace with God, how we are made right before God to be declared righteous.

It's by faith. It doesn't say anything else in this verse. And when we do look to the totality of Scripture, it does lead us to live a life of obedience. And so I think Paul could not be more clear. But as we've seen, there's other people.

We may see if we'll call them out by name, but we'll see. But they really want to add works to justification by faith, right?

And it's so sad. I just want to look at this real quick. Just for our viewers that might not have a Bible near them, let's just look at that. So right here, chapter 5, this is the thing. And it's so sad to me.

I should have just typed it in. But it's very clear. Let me get rid of all of this so we can see it clearly.

I like your little notes you've got going on, Trey.

Oh, dude, I've got this whole thing filled up, so sometimes I have to do that. But, therefore, since we have been justified by faith. And see, here's the thing. Like the guy I debated, right? He wants to use Jude 3, where Jude 3 is talking about the faith, defending the faith.

And we talked about this in our review of that debate. But just by adding that, you know, it changes the whole definition and the whole doctrine of justification by faith that has historically been in the church.

Because this can't be any more clear, therefore, since we've been justified by faith. Right there, right? And it's just heartbreaking. And it's worth defending. I mean, this is what the gospel, this is what the Christian faith is.

The foundational level is built on this doctrine right here. I mean, this is what they say that this is the hinge on which the door swings of Christianity, right? I mean, that's why it's such a big deal.

That's why it's worth fighting for. And so many people don't really think it's worth fighting for. They're like, oh, just love people. And man, let me tell you something, Jeremiah, where I come from, my background and my people, where I live, you know, it's just why argue this?

They love Jesus. Just love people. Just do what Jesus did and love people. That just breaks my heart, you know? And because I think that they really believe that that's what they should do because that's what they're taught, right?

But it comes back to apologetics, right? By what standard? Like your love based on what? Is it the Mormons love Jesus? Are we good with them, right? And so it comes down to what is love? And you don't know what love is unless you know God's word.

And is it loving to tell people, hey, you believing that faith plus something else will bring you salvation. Faith plus baptism, let's just say that, will bring you salvation. Then according to the book of Galatians, you're going to go to hell for that.

So would it be loving for me to tell them that and then possibly get upset at me? Or would it be more loving not to say anything, just to get along with them, right? And that's what, you know, I don't think the church is used to in my day, my generation where I live in America today.

I don't think the church is used to men standing up on God's word and just not budging. I mean, they're used to just nice guys, like just whatever, you know, oh, just, oh, yeah, we love you. God bless you, you know?

And I don't think that's nice, according to God's word. God is a stickler, right? When he tells the guy, listen, don't touch the ark of the covenant. If you touch it, you're going to die. There was a good-hearted man when he saw that thing falling over into the dirt, such a good heart.

He was like, oh, no, and he put his hands up to stop it so it wouldn't fall. And what happened to him? Right down the spot because God's not playing around. When he says something, you better believe it, right?

Add to that.

Love, Truth, and Contending for the Gospel

Yeah, well, I think the most loving thing we could do is share the truth with somebody. I mean, that's the most loving thing we can do. And when the Bible tells us that we are justified before God by faith apart from works, the most loving thing we can do is contend for that truth like you're talking about.

We live in a world and a culture where if you disagree, then you are somehow being unloving. And to be fair, there's a difference between trying to be right and proving that versus loving somebody and pleading for them.

I think it was Charles Spurgeon. I can't remember the quote exactly how it is, Trey, but he talked about that we should be people that wrap ourselves around people's feet and ankles and them having to go over our bodies into hell.

And that's the picture and imagery that even Jude kind of paints that a lot of us have even been burned by the snatching of branches. So it's always your heart motive. If you're doing apologetics or debates just for the sake of proving that you're right to win an argument, that's vain.

That's empty. Go read Ecclesiastes.

Now, you're going to be accused of that, though.

Oh, yeah.

I'm accused of that all the time. It's all it's just my personal motives, and it's this. You get the same thing. Guess what? Charles Spurgeon got the same thing. Jesus Christ got the same thing. Paul got the same thing.

Go ahead.

I just wanted to point that out.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. We're going to get accused of this, but it always goes back to the heart matter. If your heart loves Jesus, loves his word, then you're called to obedience. I believe it's 2 Corinthians 10, verses 4 and 5.

But we are fighting a spiritual battle, right? And we destroy arguments that rival the knowledge of God because it's satanic in origin. And so I try to encourage people, look, I don't hate the false teacher that I'm contending against.

I hate the true enemy who's Satan that's using this individual and their ideologies that rival God's truth. And so it goes back to the heart matter, Trey. If somebody is wanting to do apologetics and step in the sphere, they really need to be prayerful about it.

I would say seek out wise counsel, other men in the faith, and let them help guard you because, Trey, it's tempting to fight fire with fire. When you get insults thrown at you or someone talks condescending to you, you want to respond the same way back.

Listen, Jeremiah, we've become close friends over the last few months. What's it been, three or four months?

Yeah.

And very quickly, look, here it is. What you see now with me is what you're going to see later. Like, this is me. But what you've learned, just being a little bit closer to me, what you just said right there, oh, my goodness.

You know me, dude. When I first hear it, when I first get it, I'll get so fired up. And I have to call you, my friends, and just get it all out first because, I mean, I'm a human just like everybody else.

I mean, you don't like the things that you hear about yourself, you know, and I don't like it. Or just even just false gospel stuff and they're out there doing this or doing that.

Yeah.

I mean, we struggle just like everybody else. But, man, here's the good news of the true gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the doctrines of grace, okay? The beautiful thing is, dude, I was literally there.

I don't think you've ever really been that deep in there. I was there.

Right.

And I know this. There's a couple people I'm convinced. This is what convinces me. One is myself and my own experience of believing a false gospel. And when I tell you believe in it, I'm telling you all in, buddy.

All in.

I'm all in. I was all in. And I would have sat and debated anybody, you know, fully convinced, blinded, right? So God got me out of that. And then when I read the scriptures now, I'm like, how could I read what we're about to read, what we're about to read, Romans 4, break that down, and get into chapter 5.

How could I have ever read that and not seen it? I know what it's like to be blind. I mean, like, I was old enough to experience, like, really experience it, study it, study it, study it, study it, never see it.

So that convinces me, one, of God's goodness and His grace that He can do it. And it's not up to me or you, right? Our job is to go reclaim it, not peddle it, not try to convince, just show the scriptures.

And the other one's Paul, the apostle. I mean, if God could open his eyes, there's no one outside the grasp of God. I don't care how hard they are. I don't care how convincing. God can open anyone's heart and eyes.

So let's just jump in to Romans 4 here for us. I'm going to let you lead this, and I'll just tag along and add some tidbits and everything here. So let's look at it together with our viewers and see what it says.

Let me begin in verse 1, and we'll go to verse 8, and we'll kind of break it down like you're saying. So Paul begins, But not before God. David says,.

That's good news.

Yeah, and he's really setting us up for the rest of the chapter. He just demonstrates this case a few more times. And so what is a good apologetic in Paul's mind is starting with Abraham. Abraham is before the law of Moses.

So what he's doing is showing that whatever we can find of Abraham for the Jews is also going to be true for the Gentiles. And so how would you show how to be saved universally? I'm not saying everybody gets saved.

I'm just saying how can everybody, no matter what your tribe, tongue, people, or nation you come from, how can you be saved? Well, you would want to point to Abraham. That's what you see going on in the book of Hebrews, and we see that going on in the writer of James also made his case with Abraham.

I want to point out something real quick. I want to add to you right there. I tell people when I'm teaching people, look, to get a really good grasp of Scripture before we just really dive in, the three characters you really need to know and to have a good understanding of is the first, Adam, because then you know yourself.

You need to know Abraham, know really a good idea of Abraham and what he went through, what happened to Abraham, and know Christ, the second Adam. If you know those three, you got it. I mean, you're going to know what happens to everybody in the Bible here.

And what you're saying is, how can everyone universally be saved in the same way? And it's by looking at Abraham. He's the perfect image of that. Right. And you see at the end of chapter four how it is.

I mean, it just says clearly why he was counted righteous. It is very clear. Now, other people who want to add to the gospel. Right. And I want to talk about the gospel here in a minute with you. We'll find a way segue in that somewhere when they want to add to the gospel.

They want to look to the things that Abraham did, like taking Isaac up. Right. Or, yeah. Like that's what he did. So he had faith and he did this. And that's why he was counted righteous. Well, if the Bible doesn't contradict, which everyone admits to saying that it doesn't contradict.

But if you believe it's something else, it's faith plus something else. You're going to be contradicting yourself everywhere in Scripture. And so we have to have a good understanding of these things. So, yes, people will say because you have to.

You have to say everybody. We're all saved. The Gentiles are saved just like Abraham was saved. Well, if you ask him, OK, well, how was Abraham saved? Well, he left for the Chaldeans. That's how he had faith and he left.

Well, I don't live there. How can I have faith and leave there? Or, well, he had faith and he offered Isaac as a sacrifice. Well, I don't have a son named Isaac. How do I do that? So what I'm saying is when you say when you say you're saving the same way, not only do you have to change the definition of the word faith and add to it to make your system work, you also have to change the definition of the meaning of the phrase in the same way.

Because when you say in the same way, you don't really mean in the same way. You mean a little different, right? You want to add to that? Go ahead.

Faith, Obedience, and James 2

Yeah, because especially engaging with Church of Christ, one criticism we get is, oh, you're saying you can just have faith but not an obedient faith. And we're saying that's not what we're saying. True saving faith desires obedience.

And so that obedience just demonstrates if you have the real thing or not, which God sees the heart and God already knows. The demonstration is for our good, right? Showing us the work that God has already begun in our heart.

And us demonstrating our faith is for the world, right? Seeing how God's people are salt and light. And so I think it's unfortunate when people start saying, well, you believe in faith alone, but it's a faith that doesn't have to be obedient.

I'm like, well, we're not even on the same page yet because we're talking about the word faith. We're talking about the word pistis, which really biblically we're getting at understands facts. But those facts, that knowledge penetrates the heart.

If it's penetrated the heart, then you're going to have what we would call conviction, right? Of what Hebrews would say of evidence not seen. That conviction is going to lead to living your faith before mankind.

And so that's everything that we see with Abraham because did he have obedient faith? Yes, absolutely. We see his life demonstrated, but it's the faith that justifies us before God. And so that is what Paul is making his whole argument here in Romans 4.

Do you want to add to that any?

Yeah, I mean, I think that when, you know, it's so close to me when you say that you're saying faith alone. Therefore, it means you don't have any obedience. That is just I don't even play that game.

It's just ridiculous.

You know, it is ridiculous.

Go ahead. What are you about to say?

I agree. It's ridiculous. But I've noticed there are Church of Christ that that's all they've been told. They've been trained. And so when they hear something different, I've met some people that they're really like, wait, James 2 talks about a dead faith, which assumes an alive faith.

You're saying faith alone. So that seems like a dead faith. I've had the opportunity to try of explaining to somebody. That's not that's not exactly that's really not close at all. We're talking about now.

Do we believe that there is such thing as a live act of faith and faith? Yes. But true saving faith is always going to demonstrate itself out.

Right.

What James is talking about, we'll probably get more into this because we know that Paul in Romans 4 is not going to contradict James in chapter two. But James 2 is talking about a religious person who has a said faith.

Right.

And then James in verse 218 is saying, show me, demonstrate that faith for me. You say you have faith, but I'm going to show people my love for them based on what I do. And so that's that's the benefit.

If I told you all day long, Trey, that I was your friend, all these things, but I wanted nothing to do with you. Well, you would start to question what I'm actually saying. And so that's essentially the argument that James making.

Paul is getting at a vertical relationship before God. That's kind of we'll get more into this. And I want to hear what you have to say. But he says, for if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So this is that vertical relationship that our justification by faith is serving. It's justifying us before God, not necessarily before men.

And the only way you can truly love your neighbor as yourself, which the Christians charge, is the new commandment, right? That Jesus gives, and it's to love yourself. He says, look, I give you another a new commandment in John 13, and that's to love one another just as I've loved you.

And so it's actually to love yourself, love others more than you love yourself, because there's sometimes, you know, the Old Testament was love your neighbor as yourself. There's sometimes I don't love myself.

So it's not hard to love my neighbor, right? So Jesus' command to the Christian is to love your brothers and your sisters in Christ the way he loved us, which is more than yourself. Right. And so the only way you can truly love your neighbor more than yourself and or just love your neighbor.

The only way you can truly do that without using them is to have that vertical relationship like you're talking about secure, like a secure relationship, knowing and trusting and having faith in God that he's going to do what he had promised.

OK, if not, if not, guess what? You need your neighbors to use them to prove to him your love to him by helping your neighbor. So I'm doing it not really for their benefit and for their good. I'm doing it for mine to prove myself to him.

And so it just really tears everything down.

God's Immutability, Total Depravity, and the Meaning of Works

Yeah. Also, that view of trying to justify yourself by your works before man and God. It also starts to infringe on many attributes of God, like his omniscience. God is also immutable. He doesn't change and react to man and he doesn't learn.

So once again, like when we're having these dialogues with the guy like that, you debated. And we'll let everybody know. Travis Thomas, he's actually going to be talking on Romans four. So that kind of we wanted to be in the same conversation so people can hear both sides.

But you've got to be consistent with the whole counsel of God. When we read things that God, I, the Lord, do not change. Malachi 3, 6 or that Numbers 23, 19. God is not like a man that he should repent or change his mind.

God cannot lie. God is immutable. God is not like shifting shadows, the New Testament tells us. So you've got to be consistent with your anthropology, your study of who man is, with your understanding of who God is to have a theology proper.

And so all of this is relevant to this conversation. And Paul, we want to show how he is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Now, the Church of Christ, they would have to agree with that. But it's another thing to be able to show it, especially contextually, and to be consistent with true definitions of words.

Because that's when people want to get away from the Greek, when people want to say just speak where the Bible speaks, and where the Bible is silent, don't say anything else, that's an impossible standard when it comes to teaching.

And so we do go to the original language to adjudicate, to really understand the definitions or understandings of what the English is telling us. And so, Trey, I was wanting to also point out, we're not making something up when we say that this is before God.

Now, Paul clearly said that there. But if you look back in Romans 3 .20, he is talking about the Jews there. So I want to bring out a concept that he's been talking about in chapters 2 and 3. And then chapter 4 is so pivotal in this entire conversation.

Verse 20, Paul says, For by the works of law so I just want to pause. He's talking about a type of work here. Romans 4, he's talking about the definition of works, which is kind of this foundation. And then you can talk about different kinds of works, examples that fit on top of that definition.

So right now we're looking at an example of a type of work that Paul was rebuking the Pharisees for having. For by works of law, no human being will be justified in whose sight? In God's sight, in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

And so the reason why I bring that out is, for one, this is in his sight, vertically before him. But he's talking about a type or an example of works here, works of law. Now what we're going to see here in chapter 4 is it's not talking about works of law.

It's talking about works, period. Now in my debate, Trey, the individual that I was debating, Brock Kendall, and his debate partner, Aaron Dodson. They were emphatic about just because we read works of law here in Romans 3, that's what it necessarily means in Romans 4.

And for one, it doesn't say works of law only. Because talk about holding each other to the same standards. It doesn't say law alone here, the law of Moses alone. And they're going to get mad at us for saying that we're justified by faith alone.

Now I will admit, alone, that's an interpretive conclusion. When we go look at a few of these verses, especially Romans 5 .1, that's all we see is faith. And you ask the question, what is faith? You look at a definition, and it's right there.

It's firm trust in Christ, literally from the heart. So my point is, the individuals that I debated, they want to see when you just see the word works, they're saying, well, it's actually the Mosaic Law.

And they want to make the case that it's only talking about that. But that's a different conclusion than the individual that you debated, Travis Thomas. On one of his programs, he actually admits that this is not talking about works of law.

So Church of Christ need to understand that they're not in agreement on this passage. Now to Travis's credit a little bit, it doesn't go the direction that he wants. But he's right in understanding that works here with Abraham is not talking about works of law.

You want to know why? Because Abraham came so much before the Mosaic Law. Paul is getting at a more fundamental principle that he's not talking about examples of works. He's talking about works, period, do not contribute to our justification because if it did, then you could boast about the things that you accomplished.

So do you want to add to any of that?

No, man, 100 percent. I don't even know what to say, Jeremiah, because it's so close to home to me.

Yeah, OK.

It is so close, but and I get a little fired up. And so, you know how I have to get things out first before I really talk too much about it. But, you know, it's very clear. I mean, it's and this is what I don't know.

This is what I can't say. Right. This is where it gets me is because. It's literally as clear as a bell right there. And I'm just telling you, it just proves to me that. Reform theology. Is 100 percent because it is as clear as a bell right there, and there are people who I know and love and, you know, in love.

They just look at this and say, no, you can't see it, you know, and it's one of these things where, you know, you can't unsee what you now have seen. Right. Once you've seen it and I look at back in the you know, I'm 44 years old and you're a young man.

I just turned 30. Welcome. But back in the late 80s, early 90s, there was these pictures that had just like just a blob. Right. I mean, you couldn't there's nothing to it, but it was done in a way. You know, computer generated where if you looked at it like at an angle with your eyeballs, you could see a picture in it.

Or if you like made your eyes not focus and like clear up, you could see a picture within that blob. I can never see it. I never knew how to do it. It was very frustrating to me because other people would see it.

Oh, look, it's a ship or it's this or it's that. And I'm like, what in the world? I don't see anything. Right. And this is why riddles make people mad. This is why Christianity. Is the most hated religion in the world.

This is one of the reasons we get other religions do this and you get this, do this, this and this and you get this. You mess with us, we kill you. Hey, we understand those things. Right. But we don't like riddles.

Nobody likes riddles. Everybody likes a riddle on the front end. If I tell you a riddle and it's funny, funny, funny, we're in a big group. But as soon as you see one of your friends get the riddle, then it becomes real funny.

Right. Then another friend gets it. Then all of a sudden you start getting frustrated and you say, tell me, what is it? I don't want to play this more. I don't want to do this. Right. That's what this is.

It's like I see it. They don't see it gets frustrating because they really can't. I mean, it's just.

So that's a really good way of putting it when a when a riddle becomes clear, because we actually see that being played out in the Gospels with the disciples. But what I want to encourage people is it's not that me or Trey, that we're smarter than the next guy.

We've figured out the riddles. We, with all of our heart, believe that God has revealed these things by his spirit. And that's that's way different than the Gnostics that said, you know, you just got to chant and meditate and, you know, of your own human autonomy.

Or let me teach you a secret knowledge that nobody else knows.

What we're what we're saying is only by God's grace, that's what separates me from the guy that doesn't understand. Now, can I demonstrate it objectively to someone who doesn't see it? Absolutely. But what we're getting at is they don't trust it with all their heart.

They can maybe even under I know atheists. I sit down and talk with these things. They can understand these things intellectually. And you know what? They time and time again have said Calvinism is the most consistent understanding of Scripture.

But they they hate that understanding of who God is, that he would be sovereign absolutely over his entire creation.

Because that's what the whole that's what the war is about, right? It all goes back to the Garden of Eden. We want to be God. We don't want to have him telling us what to do. We want to trust ourselves more than his word.

At the end of the day, it all goes back to that. So these atheists who say, oh, of course, I'm it's the most consistent. I'm sitting here reading it, you know, and I'm that's what it says. It's very clear and it's consistent all the way through Scripture.

But they just don't like that God. That's fair and honest. But and this is what happens with all these other.

Go ahead. Well, because I've been in dialogue with Travis Thomas, and so I can tell and I mean this with love and grace. He's not understanding the doctrine of total depravity because he just says, why?

Why would you waste your time interacting with someone who's totally depraved? Well, because we're called to for one. And he's like, yeah, but I can't understand it. So it seems like a waste of time. Well, God uses means to bring about his end purposes.

And so one of those means is I can demonstrate logically and contextually the truth of something. But I understand I can't give the increase. I can't twist someone's arm into making them believe it. They can understand the facts.

But to open up that heart like Lydia, that takes something that's of the Holy Spirit. And I want to say this to Trey for other audiences, maybe of the Church of Christ side. I remember something that I didn't get to speak to in my debate.

I talked a lot about regeneration in mine, especially in the question, the answer. And Brock said, you know, my understanding of regeneration is not the Bible understanding of regeneration. Or for one, the definition means rebirth.

So that should immediately make us go back to John chapter three.

Right.

But another comment he made is your understanding of regeneration is nowhere to be found in the book of Acts. And Trey, we were in the answering audience questions at the time. So I didn't want to just blurt out.

Lydia, Lydia.

Open her heart. Open her heart. I want to add to that. Let me add to this real quick. And I want to show you this right here. Let's look at it together. How about that? This is what you're talking about here.

Second Corinthians, right? Chapter four. Here in verse five, it says, for we proclaim. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ is Lord with ourselves as your servants for Jesus sake. That's what we do, right?

For God, who said, let light shine out of darkness, has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. That's what it takes. Mike, that's what you're saying.

We're it's by grace that we're safe. It took God the father shining the light of the knowledge of Jesus Christ in our hearts. Just like when he spoke to see there was nothing there.

Right.

There was no faith there before that happened. It was complete darkness. Think of creation. This is what God does. He spoke light into existence. This is what he does. He brings forth life. And that's what he did in Genesis.

And that's what he did with each individual miracle that comes to the Lord Jesus Christ. That would be John 3, 16 through 21. And so it's it's the most gracious and loving message you'll ever hear because it is the true gospel.

And it is hard to because it doesn't fit in this world. This is why we have to renew our thinking. It doesn't make sense in this world. This is why Paul tells in First Corinthians one and two that that you're never going to know God through wisdom and philosophy.

It's just not. But this is what we're trying to use. You're not going to know him. You can't you can't understand that way. But I know you want to get into Romans four. So we're going to do that.