Does Romans 4 teach Faith Alone??

The fact that he's using Abraham lets us know that he's not talking about works of law.

Was Abraham justified apart from works of law? Yeah. He was also justified apart from baptism.

But that's ridiculous because that's not even in his context at all. But we know that Abraham did do works.

He did things like leave the land of the Ur of Chaldeans, like you mentioned. He did do things like he was obedient to get circumcised and circumcise his son.

He did things like willing to sacrifice his son Isaac on an altar.

So did Abraham do works of obedience? Yes. And guess what

Paul is saying? He could have boasted about him if that's what justified him. Welcome everybody to the

Parish Reformed Podcast. I've got again, I've got another guest. Not another guest. Probably the same name you've seen quite a bit.

But we're going to be talking about a little bit of Romans 4. And justification and just the gospel.

We really want to spend some time talking about these things. And it's kind of been a hot topic, not just with us, but everybody.

And I think this has been the topic, and it always will be, defending the gospel and the doctrine of justification.

So here's my guest, Jeremiah Nortier. There you go. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got here, and what we're going to talk about, what's on your heart.

Yes, well Tray, thanks for having me on again. So I do an apologetics ministry here in Jonesboro, Arkansas, called

The Apologetic Dog. And you can find most of my content on my YouTube channel. But I also serve as an elder here at 12

Five Church with Nathan Hargrave. And Tray, it's just been a blessing getting to serve alongside with him.

And so I just want to encourage your viewers to look forward to more and more content coming out.

Tray, you and I both have engaged in public debates. And so people have asked me, why in the world would you spend time debating these issues and causing division?

And I want to encourage people. The Bible tells us to speak the truth in love. And we see that model in the book of Acts with the

Apostle Paul and Barnabas contending for the gospel against the Judaizers. And so that's kind of my heart desire,

Tray. As I pursue apologetics, I want to guard the truthfulness of the gospel and avoid irreverent babble or pagan philosophy of knowledge that contradicts itself.

So that's a little bit about me, Tray. All right. Sounds good. And, you know, we were talking about Ulrich.

You're going to name your son Ulrich, right? Uldrich Zwingli. My wife would never let me do that.

So we were looking at a quote from Uldrich Zwingli. I think it was yesterday.

About how my Christian's getting such like, it seems like such battles and such arguments, you know.

And Zwingli, all the way back there, the reformer, said it's because we're the ones with true piety.

True piety. You know, a lot of people come across very pious. But true piety is defending the sovereignty of God.

Like that's what it is. It's evangelism. It's defending. And it's just loving the doctrines of grace and the gospel, what he's done.

And when you defend those things, like we're commanded to do, like you just said, it rubs people, you know.

I mean, look, truth divides always, right? Truth divides from error. So what's the one thing you were wanting to talk about today?

You mentioned Romans 4, correct? Yeah, like you said, this is becoming a hot topic of controversy.

And what we're contending for is that justification comes by faith. And we see this come out.

Paul's thesis or grand conclusion of Romans 4 comes out in Romans 5, verse 1.

He says, therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

Lord Jesus Christ. And this verse, Trey, is so clear of how we have peace with God, how we are made right before God to be declared righteous.

It's by faith. It doesn't say anything else in this verse. And when we do look to the totality of Scripture, it does lead us to live a life of obedience.

And so I think Paul could not be more clear. But as we've seen, there's other people.

We may see if we'll call them out by name, but we'll see. But they really want to add works to justification by faith.

And it's so sad. I just want to look at this real quick. Just for our viewers that might not have a

Bible near them, let's just look at that. So right here, chapter 5, this is the thing.

And it's so sad to me. I should have just typed it in. But it's very clear.

Let me get rid of all of this so we can see it clearly. I like your little notes you've got going on, Trey. Oh, dude, I've got this whole thing filled up, so sometimes

I have to do that. But therefore, since we have been justified by faith.

And see, here's the thing. Like the guy I debated, right? He wants to use

Jude 3, where Jude 3 is talking about the faith, defending the faith.

And we talked about this in our review of that debate. But just by adding that, you know, it changes the whole definition and the whole doctrine of justification by faith that has historically been in the church.

Because this can't be any more clear. Therefore, since we have been justified by faith. Right there, right?

And it's just heartbreaking. And it's worth defending. I mean, this is what the gospel, this is what the

Christian faith is. The foundational level is built on this doctrine right here. I mean, this is what they say that this is the hinge on which the door swings of Christianity.

Right? I mean, that's why it's such a big deal. That's why it's worth fighting for. And so many people don't really think it's worth fighting for.

They're like, oh, just love people. And man, let me tell you something, Jeremiah. Where I come from, my background and my people, where I live, you know.

It's just, why argue this? They love Jesus. Just love people.

Just do what Jesus did and love people. That just breaks my heart. You know? And because I think that they really believe that that's what they should do.

Because that's what they're taught. Right? But it comes back to apologetics. Right?

By what standard? Like your love based on what? Is it the Mormons love Jesus? Are we good with them?

Right? And so it comes down to what is love? And you don't know what love is unless you know God's word.

And is it loving to tell people, hey, you believing that, faith plus something else will bring you salvation.

Faith plus baptism, let's just say that, will bring you salvation. Then according to the book of Galatians, you're going to go to hell for that.

So would it be loving for me to tell them that and then possibly get upset at me?

Or would it be more loving not to say anything, just to get along with them? Right? And that's what, you know,

I don't think the church is used to in my day, my generation where I live in America today.

I don't think the church is used to men standing up on God's word and just not budging.

I mean, they're used to just nice guys. Like just whatever, you know, oh, just, oh, yeah, we love you.

God bless you. You know? And I don't think that's nice, according to God's word. God is a stickler.

Right? When he tells the guy, listen, don't touch the Ark of the Covenant. If you touch it, you're going to die.

There was a good -hearted man when he saw that thing falling over into the dirt. Such a good heart. He was like, oh, no.

And he put his hands up to stop it so it wouldn't fall. And what happened to him? Right there on the spot.

Because God's not playing around. When he says something, you better believe it. Right? Add to that.

Yeah, well, I think the most loving thing we can do is share the truth with somebody.

I mean, that's the most loving thing we can do. And when the Bible tells us that we are justified before God by faith, apart from works, the most loving thing we can do is contend for that truth like you're talking about.

We live in a world and a culture where if you disagree, then you are somehow being unloving.

And to be fair, there's a difference between trying to be right and proving that versus loving somebody and pleading for them.

I think it was Charles Spurgeon. I can't remember the quote exactly how it is, Trey, but he talked about that we should be people that wrap ourselves around people's feet and ankles.

Them having to go over our bodies into hell. And that's the picture and imagery that even

Jude kind of paints. That a lot of us have even been burned by the snatching of branches.

So it's always your heart motive. If you're doing apologetics or debates just for the sake of proving that you're right to win an argument, that's vain.

That's empty. Go read Ecclesiastes. Now, you're going to be accused of that, though. Oh, yeah.

I'm accused of that all the time. It's all just my personal motives. You get the same thing.

Guess what? Charles Spurgeon got the same thing. Jesus Christ got the same thing. Paul got the same thing. Go ahead.

I just want to point that out. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We're going to get accused of this, but it always goes back to the heart matter.

If your heart loves Jesus, loves his word, then you're called to obedience.

I believe it's 2 Corinthians 10, verses 4 and 5. But we are fighting a spiritual battle, right?

And we destroy arguments that rival the knowledge of God because it's satanic in origin.

And so I try to encourage people, look, I don't hate the false teacher that I'm continuing against.

I hate the true enemy who's Satan that's using this individual and their ideologies that rival

God's truth. And so it goes back to the heart matter, Trey. If somebody is wanting to do apologetics and step in the sphere, they really need to be prayerful about it.

I would say seek out wise counsel, other men in the faith, and let them help guard you because,

Trey, it's tempting to fight fire with fire. When you get insults thrown at you or someone talks condescending to you, you want to respond the same way back.

Listen, Jeremiah, we've become close friends over the last few months. What's it been, three or four months?

Yeah. And very quickly, look, here it is. What you see now with me is what you're going to see later.

Like, this is me. But what you've learned just being a little bit closer to me, what you just said right there, oh, my goodness, you know me, dude.

When I first hear it, when I first get it, I'll get so fired up. And I have to call you, my friends, and just get it all out first because,

I mean, I'm a human just like everybody else. I mean, you don't like the things that you hear about yourself, you know, and I don't like it.

Or just even just false gospel stuff, and they're out there doing this or doing that. Yeah, I mean, we struggle just like everybody else.

But, man, here's the good news of the true gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the doctrines of grace, okay?

The beautiful thing is, dude, I was literally there. I don't think you've ever really been that deep in there.

I was there. And I know this. There's a couple people I'm convinced. This is what convinces me.

One is myself and my own experience of believing a false gospel. And when I tell you believe in it, I'm telling you all in, buddy.

All in. I'm all in. I was all in. And I would have sat and debated anybody, you know, fully convinced, blinded, right?

So God got me out of that. And then when I read the scriptures now, I'm like, how could I read what we're about to read, what we're about to read,

Romans 4, break that down, and get into chapter 5. How could I have ever read that and not seen it?

I know what it's like to be blind. I mean, like, I was old enough to experience, like, really experience it, study it, study it, study it, study it, never see it.

So that convinces me, one, of God's goodness and His grace that He can do it. And it's not up to me or you, right?

Our job is to go reclaim it. Not peddle it, not try to convince, just show the scriptures.

And the other one's Paul, the apostle. I mean, if God could open his eyes, there's no one outside the grasp of God.

I don't care how hard they are. I don't care how convincing. God can open anyone's heart and eyes.

So let's just jump in to Romans 4 here for us. I'm going to let you lead this, and I'll just tag along and add some tidbits and everything here.

So let's look at it together with our viewers and see what it says.

Let me begin in verse 1, and we'll go to verse 8, and we'll kind of break it down like you're saying. So Paul begins,

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh?

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

But what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. And to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one whom God counts righteousness apart from works.

There in Psalm 32, Trey, David says, Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. That's good news.

Yeah, and he's really setting us up for the rest of the chapter. He just demonstrates this case a few more times.

And so what is a good apologetic in Paul's mind is starting with Abraham.

Abraham is before the law of Moses. So what he's doing is showing that whatever we can find of Abraham for the

Jews is also going to be true for the Gentiles. And so how would you show how to be saved universally?

And I'm not saying everybody gets saved. I'm just saying how can everybody, no matter what your tribe, tongue, people or nation you come from, how can you be saved?

Well, you would want to point to Abraham. That's what you see going on in the book of Hebrews. And we see that going on.

The writer of James also made his case with Abraham. I want to point out something real quick. I want to add to you right there.

I tell people when I'm teaching people, look, to get a really good grasp of Scripture before we just really dive in.

The three characters you really need to know and to have a good understanding of is the first Adam, right?

Because then you know yourself. You need to know Abraham. Know really a good idea of Abraham and what he went through, what happened to Abraham.

And know Christ, the second Adam. If you know those three, you got it. I mean, you're going to know what happens to everybody in the

Bible here. And what you're saying is, how can everyone universally be saved in the same way?

And it's by looking at Abraham. He's the perfect image of that. Right. And you see at the end of chapter four how it is.

I mean, it just says clearly why he was counted righteous. It is very clear. Now, other people who want to add to the gospel.

Right. And I want to talk about the gospel here in a minute with you. We'll find a way segue in that somewhere. When they want to add to the gospel, they want to look to the things that Abraham did.

Like taking Isaac up. Right. Yep. Or leaving Ur of the Chaldeans. Like that's what he did.

So he had faith and he did this. And that's why he was counted righteous. Well, if the Bible doesn't contradict, which everyone admits to saying that it doesn't contradict.

But if you believe it's something else, it's faith plus something else. You're going to be contradicting yourself everywhere in scripture.

And so we have to have a good understanding of these things. So, yes, people will say because you have to.

You have to say everybody. We're all saved. The Gentiles are saved just like Abraham was saved.

Well, if you ask him, OK, well, how is Abraham saved? Well, he left Ur of the Chaldeans. That's how he had faith and he left.

Well, I don't live there. How can I have faith and leave there? Or, well, he had faith and he offered

Isaac as a sacrifice. Well, I don't have a son named Isaac. How do I do that? So what

I'm saying is when you say you're saved in the same way, not only do you have to change the definition of the word faith and add to it to make your system work.

You also have to change the definition of the meaning of the phrase in the same way. Because when you say in the same way, you don't really mean in the same way.

You mean a little different. Right. Yeah. You want to add to that? Go ahead. Yeah, because especially engaging with Church of Christ, one criticism we get is, oh, you're saying you can just have faith, but not an obedient faith.

And we're saying that's not what we're saying. True saving faith desires obedience.

And so that obedience just demonstrates if you have the real thing or not, which

God sees the heart and God already knows. The demonstration is for our good, right, showing us the work that God has already begun in our heart.

And us demonstrating our faith is for the world, right, seeing how God's people are salt and light.

And so I just I think it's unfortunate when people start saying, well, you believe in faith alone, but it's a faith that doesn't have to be obedient.

I'm like, well, we're not even on the same page yet because we're talking about the word faith. We're talking about the word pistis, which really biblically we're getting at understands facts.

But those facts, that knowledge penetrates the heart. If it's penetrated the heart, then you're going to have what we would call conviction, right, of what

Hebrews would say of evidence not seen. That conviction is going to lead to living your faith before mankind.

And so that's everything that we see with Abraham. Because did he have obedient faith? Yes, absolutely.

We see his life demonstrated, but it's the faith that justifies us before God.

And so that is what Paul is making his whole argument here in Romans 4. Do you want to add to that any?

Yeah, I mean, I think that when, you know, it's so close to me when you say that you're saying faith alone.

Therefore, it means you don't have any obedience. That is just I don't even play that game. It's just ridiculous. You know, it is ridiculous.

Go ahead. What are you about to say? I agree. It's ridiculous. But I've noticed there are

Church of Christ that that's all they've been told. They've been trained. And so when they hear something different,

I've met some people that they're really like, wait, James 2 talks about a dead faith, which assumes an alive faith.

You're saying faith alone. So that seems like a dead faith. I've had the opportunity, Trey, of explaining to somebody that's not that's not exactly that's really not close at all.

We're talking about now. Do we believe that there is such thing as a live act of faith and a dead faith? Yes. But true saving faith is always going to demonstrate itself out.

What James is talking about, we'll probably get more into this because we know that Paul in Romans 4 is not going to contradict

James in chapter 2. But James 2 is talking about a religious person who has a said faith.

And then James in verse 218 is saying, show me, demonstrate that faith for me.

You say you have faith, but I'm going to show people my love for them based on what I do.

And so that's that's the benefit. If I told you all day long, Trey, that I was your friend and all these things, but I wanted nothing to do with you.

Well, you would start to question what I'm actually saying. And so that's essentially the argument that James making.

Paul is getting at a vertical relationship before God. That's kind of we'll get more into this.

And I want to hear what you have to say. But he says, for if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

So this is that vertical relationship that our justification by faith is serving. It's justifying us before God, not necessarily before man.

And the only way you can truly love your neighbor as yourself, which the

Christians charge is the New Commandment, right? That Jesus gives and it's to love yourself.

He says, look, I give you another a new commandment in John 13, and that's to love one another just as I've loved you.

And so it's actually to love yourself, love others more than you love yourself, because there's sometimes, you know, the Old Testament was love your neighbor as yourself.

There's sometimes I don't love myself. So it's not hard to love my neighbor. Right. So Jesus' command to the

Christian is to love your brothers and your sisters in Christ the way he loved us, which is more than yourself.

Right. And so the only way you can truly love your neighbor more than yourself and or just love your neighbor, the only way you can truly do that without using them is to have that vertical relationship like you're talking about secure, like a secure relationship, knowing and trusting and having faith in God that he's going to do what he had promised.

OK, if not, if not, guess what? You need your neighbors to use them to prove to him your love to him by helping your neighbor.

So I'm doing it not really for their benefit and for their good. I'm doing it for mine to prove myself to him. And so it just really tears everything down.

Yeah. Also, that view of trying to justify yourself by your works before man and God, it also starts to infringe on many attributes of God, like his omniscience.

God is also immutable. He doesn't change and react to man and he doesn't learn. So once again, like when we're having these dialogues with the guy like that you debated, and we'll let everybody know

Travis Thomas, he's actually going to be talking on Romans four. So that kind of we wanted to be in the same conversation so people can hear both sides.

But you've got to be consistent with the whole counsel of God. When we read things that God, I, the

Lord, do not change Malachi 3, 6 or that Numbers 23, 19. God is not like a man that he should repent or change his mind.

God cannot lie. God is immutable. God is not like shifting shadows, the New Testament tells us.

So you've got to be consistent with your anthropology, your study of who man is, with your understanding of who

God is to have a theology proper. And so all of this is relevant to this conversation.

And Paul, we want to show how he is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Now, the Church of Christ, they would have to agree with that.

But it's another thing to be able to show it, especially contextually, and to be consistent with true definitions of words.

Because that's – when people want to get away from the Greek, when people want to say just speak where the

Bible speaks, and where the Bible is silent, don't say anything else, that's an impossible standard when it comes to teaching.

And so we do go to the original language to adjudicate, to really understand the definitions or understandings of what the

English is telling us. And so, Trey, I was wanting to also point out, we're not making something up when we say that this is before God.

Now, Paul clearly said that there. But if you look back in Romans 3 .20, he is talking about the

Jews there. So I want to bring out a concept that he's been talking about in chapters 2 and 3.

And then chapter 4 is so pivotal in this entire conversation. Verse 20,

Paul says, For by the works of law – so I just want to pause. He's talking about a type of work here.

Romans 4, he's talking about the definition of works, which is kind of this foundation. And then you can talk about different kinds of works, examples that fit on top of that definition.

So right now we're looking at an example of a type of work that Paul was rebuking the

Pharisees for having. For by works of law, no human being will be justified in whose sight?

In God's sight, in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

And so the reason why I bring that out is, for one, this is in his sight, vertically before him. But he's talking about a type or an example of works here, works of law.

Now what we're going to see here in chapter 4 is it's not talking about works of law.

It's talking about works, period. Now in my debate, Trey, the individual that I was debating,

Brock Kendall, and his debate partner, Aaron Dodson. They were emphatic about, just because we read works of law here in Romans 3, that's what it necessarily means in Romans 4.

And for one, it doesn't say works of law only. Because talk about holding each other to the same standards.

It doesn't say law alone here, the law of Moses alone. Now they're going to get mad at us for saying that we're justified by faith alone.

Now I will admit, alone, that's an interpretive conclusion. When we go look at a few of these verses, especially

Romans 5 .1, that's all we see is faith. And you ask the question, what is faith? You look at a definition, and it's right there.

It's firm trust in Christ, literally from the heart. So my point is, the individuals that I debated, they want to see – when you just see the word works, they're saying, well, it's actually the

Mosaic law. And they want to make the case that it's only talking about that. But that's a different conclusion than the individual that you debated,

Travis Thomas, on one of his programs. He actually admits that this is not talking about works of law.

So Church of Christ need to understand that they're not in agreement on this passage.

Now to Travis's credit a little bit, it doesn't go the direction that he wants. But he's right in understanding that works here with Abraham is not talking about works of law.

You want to know why? Because Abraham came so much before the

Mosaic law. Paul is getting at a more fundamental principle that he's not talking about examples of works.

He's talking about works period do not contribute to our justification because if it did, then you could boast about the things that you accomplished.

So do you want to add to any of that? No, man. One hundred percent. I don't even know what to say,

Jeremiah. Because it's so close to home to me. Yeah. OK. It is so close. And I get a little fired up.

And so you know how I have to get things out first before I really talk too much about it. But, you know, it's very clear.

I mean, it's this is what I don't know. This is what I can't say. Right. This is where it gets me is because it's literally as clear as a bell right there.

And I'm just telling you, it just proves to me that.

Reform theology. Is one hundred percent because it is as clear as a bell right there.

And there are people who I know and love and, you know, in love. They just look at this and say, no, you can't see it.

You know, and it's one of these things where, you know, you can't unsee what you now have seen.

Right. Once you've seen it and I look at back in the you know, I'm 44 years old and you're a young man.

I just turned 30. Welcome. But back in the late 80s, early 90s, there was these pictures that had just like just a blob.

Right. I mean, you couldn't there's nothing to it. But it was done in a way, you know, computer generated where if you looked at it like at an angle with your eyeballs, you could see a picture in it or if you like made your eyes not focus and might clear up.

You could see a picture within that blob. I could never see it. I never knew how to do it. It was very frustrating to me because other people would see it.

Oh, look, it's a ship or it's this or it's that. And I'm like, what in the world? I don't see anything. Right. And this is why riddles make people mad.

This is why Christianity is the most hated religion in the world. This is one of the reasons we get other religions do this and you get this do this, this and this and you get this.

You mess with us. We kill you. Hey, we understand those things. Right. But we don't like riddles.

Nobody likes riddles. Everybody likes a riddle on the front end. If I tell you a riddle and it's funny, funny, funny.

We're in a big group. But as soon as you see one of your friends get the riddle, then it becomes real funny.

Right. Then another friend gets it. Then all of a sudden you start getting frustrated and you say, tell me, what is it?

I don't want to play this more. I don't want to do this. Right. That's what this is. It's like I see it.

They don't see it gets frustrating because they really can't. I mean, it's just. So that's a really good way of putting it.

When a when a riddle becomes clear because we actually see that being played out in the Gospels with the disciples.

But what I want to encourage people is it's not that me or Trey, that we're smarter than the next guy.

We've figured out the riddles. We, with all of our heart, believe that God has revealed these things by his spirit.

And that's that's way different than the Gnostics that said, you know, you just got to chant and meditate and, you know, of your own human autonomy.

Or let me teach you a secret knowledge that nobody else knows. What we're what we're saying is only by God's grace.

That's what separates me from the guy that doesn't understand. Now, can I demonstrate it objectively to someone who doesn't see it?

Absolutely. But what we're getting at is they don't trust it with all their heart. They can maybe even under I know atheists.

I sit down and talk with these things. They can understand these things intellectually. And you know what? They time and time again have said

Calvinism is the most consistent understanding of Scripture. But they they hate that understanding of who

God is, that he would be sovereign absolutely over his entire creation. Because that's what the whole that's what the war is about, right?

It all goes back to the Garden of Eden. We want to be God. We don't want to have him telling us what to do. We want to trust ourselves more than his word.

At the end of the day, it all goes back to that. So these atheists who say, oh, of course, I mean, it's the most consistent.

I'm sitting here reading it, you know, and I'm that's what it says. It's very clear and it's consistent all the way through Scripture.

But they just don't like that God. That's fair and honest. But and this is what happened with all these other. Go ahead.

Well, because I've been in dialogue with Travis Thomas, and so I can tell and I mean this with love and grace.

He's not understanding the doctrine of total depravity because he just says, why? Why would you waste your time interacting with someone who's totally depraved?

Well, because we're called to for one. And he's like, yeah, but I can't understand it.

So it seems like a waste of time. Well, God uses means to bring about his end purposes. And so one of those means is

I can demonstrate logically and contextually the truth of something. But I understand

I can't give the increase. I can't twist someone's arm into making them believe it. They can understand the facts.

But to open up that heart like Lydia, that takes something that's of the Holy Spirit.

And I want to say this to Trey for other audiences, maybe of the Church of Christ side.

I remember something that I didn't get to speak to in my debate. I talked a lot about regeneration in mine, especially in the question and answer.

And Brock said my understanding of regeneration is not the Bible understanding of regeneration.

Or for one, the definition means rebirth. So that should immediately make us go back to John chapter three.

But another comment he made is your understanding of regeneration is nowhere to be found in the book of Acts.

And Trey, we were answering audience questions at the time, so I didn't want to just blurt out,

Lydia, Lydia. Open your heart. I want to add to that. Let me add to this real quick, and I want to show you this right here.

Let's look at it together. How about that? This is what you're talking about here. Second Corinthians, chapter four, here in verse five, it says,

For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.

That's what we do, right? For God, who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

That's what it takes. That's what you're saying. It's by grace that we're saved.

It took God, the Father, shining the light of the knowledge of Jesus Christ in our hearts.

Just like when he spoke, because there was nothing there, right? There was no faith there. Before that happened, it was complete darkness.

Think of creation. This is what God does. He spoke light into existence. This is what he does.

He brings forth life. And that's what he did in Genesis.

And that's what he did with each individual miracle that comes to the Lord Jesus Christ. That would be

John 3, 16 through 21. And so it's the most gracious and loving message you'll ever hear because it is the true gospel.

And it is hard to because it doesn't fit in this world. This is why we have to renew our thinking. It doesn't make sense in this world.

This is why Paul tells in first Corinthians one and two that you're never going to know

God through wisdom and philosophy. It's just not. But this is what we're trying to use. You're not going to know him. You can't understand him that way.

But I know you want to get into Romans 4, so we're going to do that. Yeah, I want to say one thing that kind of echoed what you say.

And I'm going to mention this a little bit in my sermon at your church coming up, which I'm super pumped for the road trip.

So there's two religions in the world. You've got the religion of human achievement. You pick any religion of the world, and it's going to fit under this umbrella.

You perform this task of X, Y, and Z like you're talking about. Then you obtain paradise. Then you obtain favor with God or right standing.

Take your pick. All the religions of the world say the same thing. It's the same gift, just with different packaging on the outside.

But true Christianity is saying salvation is accomplished only by the divine hand of God, by divine accomplishment.

So it's take your pick, human achievement or divine accomplishment by grace and grace alone.

And I use that word alone because you've already experienced this.

Church of Christ, they get mad at us using the word alone. Alone means alone. And what we want to say is that has a historical context.

The five souls of the Reformation are all talking about different aspects of salvation.

They're not using alone in the same way to contradict each other. And so when we say by God's grace alone, we're saying

God's grace is sufficient. The Roman Catholics, they would say that God's grace is necessary,

I'm sure, just like the Church of Christ. But we're saying no, no, no. God's grace is sufficient. He is the one working all things together after his counsel in accordance with his will.

Before the foundation of the world, God is monergistically, he alone is working out all things to a particular end.

And so that's what we mean by grace is grace is done by God. And he's beginning this work, beginning to end.

He's accomplishing it. And so that's what we mean by grace. And so we're going to actually see that if you demand anything like this list of human achievements, then grace is no longer grace.

It's something that you're earning for yourself. And as we're going to see, what

I want to encourage Christians, Protestants, as you're debating or interacting with Roman Catholics or Church of Christ, I don't mind telling them this.

Ask them for a definition of the word works because that's hard for them.

If they give you that, that's going to be a standard that they cannot be consistent with from beginning to end.

I just want to throw that out there. We'll show them, the 55 people who watch this, we will show them the definition of works and how to talk this through with people to try to defend the faith, apologetic, of how to defend faith alone.

So you ready to go through it? Yes. So let's look back at verse 2. We've already been kind of alluding to it.

So verse 2, for if Abraham was justified by works, and this

Greek word is ergon. This is going to be very important for us getting more into this. So for if Abraham was justified by works, he would have something to boast about, but not before God.

So yeah, do you have that Greek word for ergon pulled up? Just give them some of the highlighted words.

This is BDAG. That to me is one of the most crystal clear explanations of what works is.

Any action, any deed done, and when we're talking about action, we're talking about human energy.

This is where doing some more in -depth study into ergon, in English we have the word energy.

This finds its root in this Greek word ergon. It's human energy. It's everything that you do perceivable to the human eye.

Now what we're going to see here in Romans 4 is Paul is using two different terms.

He's using works, and then he's using faith to show that there's true distinctions between both of them.

But as we see, I would say here in Romans 4 a little bit later and in James 2, faith leads to our works.

It actually will demonstrate itself out in works. Faith works love,

I think Paul says in Galatians. We would say absolutely it does, but they are not one and the same.

They are distinct from one another, and that's the case that Paul is making here. So verse 2, kind of a couple thoughts, talking about Abraham, and he's making the case that if Abraham was justified, declared right before God, not guilty of his sin anymore, by his works, then he would have something to boast about.

Now that's key because he's – you can say it kind of the flip way. When you do works, then you can boast about what you've accomplished.

When I go through schooling and I get a diploma or I get a degree, guess what? I get to say

I did that. I get to say I accomplished this. And a lot of people will say, well,

I'm not going to boast in me getting up and walking down into a baptistry. But they've missed the point.

You could. You could have grounding for boasting in what you did and what you accomplished.

So you get the word. Go ahead. Yeah, yeah. Again, when you talk in the

Christian topic with people who claim to be Christians, everybody's going to speak the Christian language, which we call

Christianese. Because, of course, you're going to say, well, I'm not going to –

I don't boast about being baptized. But you do. And let me explain to you how because when you don't understand

Ephesians 2, 8 through 10, you're saved by grace through faith. And this is not your own doing.

This is not your own doing. It's a gift from God. So that no man can boast, right? Here's how you do it on a subconscious level because I don't believe –

I don't think I did on a conscious level. I didn't go around saying, well, I got baptized. But here's what you do.

When you and your friends are at the house hanging out and you're talking about Johnny down the street, you know,

Johnny down the street who's not a Christian. And he's still drinking and partying and smoking and having sex.

You know, so Johnny down the street, man, he's lost. So you come into your buddy's house and you go, hey, man, I shared the gospel with Johnny down the street.

And everybody's like, what'd he say? And you're like, well, he said no.

I mean, he just wants to keep partying. I mean, he said no. And then you go about your business, right? No big deal, it seems.

But here's what just happened. What you're really doing is saying, but look, guys, we did. See, we did quit drinking and smoking.

We did quit partying. We quit having sex outside of marriage. See, we did it.

Now, you're not saying that because, you know, you can't. But that's what you're thinking because, see, Johnny didn't. But if we understood the gospel of Jesus Christ, we understood that we've been saved by faith.

We've been saved by grace through faith, not our own doing so that nobody can boast apart from works.

You would have come in the door and said, hey, man, I just shared the gospel with Johnny down the street. What'd he say?

He said he doesn't want to quit party, man. He just don't want to live for the Lord. Then you would have said, hey, guys, let's get together.

Let's pray for Johnny. Johnny, let's pray for him. And let's say, God, Father, Father, I pray you open

Johnny's heart, Lord. God, do something, whatever you have to, God, because we know if it wasn't for you changing our heart and opening our eyes to your gospel of grace, well, we'd probably be worse than Johnny.

So, God, please do whatever you have to open his heart and eyes. See, now, you know, he's not looking down at Johnny as if, well, we quit.

No, no, no, no, no. It's oh, Lord, thank you for opening my heart. It's amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

They wrote a song about it. But this is why we say, do you really believe that that song? And I've actually had a deacon from one of those churches call me back and said he can't sing it because he doesn't believe it, you know, because you don't.

And so that's why it's important to understand what you're talking about. I just wanted to add that, throw that in there. Continue on.

Well, well, thank you, because I love your personal experience and testimony because you're able to speak to their hearts and minds.

You were you were once there as where I grew up in Jonesboro, Arkansas, here, and all the

Church of Christ teaching is in my front yard. I meet so many people. And so this is an area that's near and dear to my heart because I see

Jonesboro as a mission field. I want people to turn from this gospel of works righteousness, which is really no good news at all.

It's a yoke. It's a yoke of bondage that they're having to carry around. And I love what you said before is, how are you doing in keeping these things?

Because you're never going to be good enough. And that's why you can ultimately lose your salvation, because if it depends on you, you're going to have bad days and worse days, right?

Even on your best days, it's going to fall short of the glory of God. And so the last thing

I want to say about verse 2 is you don't see works of law there. This is huge.

Two reasons. Holding the Church of Christ to their own standard doesn't say works of law. So you can't just appeal to the context according to their standard and insert that in there.

And number two, even if you were trying to use context and interpret verses, because it's okay to interpret and ask what

Paul is meaning, the fact that he's using Abraham lets us know that he's not talking about works of law.

Was Abraham justified apart from works of law? Yeah. He was also justified apart from baptism.

But that's ridiculous because that's not even in his context at all. But we know that Abraham did do works.

He did things like leave the land of the Ur of Chaldeans, like you mentioned. He did do things like he was obedient to get circumcised and circumcise his son.

He did things like willing to sacrifice his son Isaac on an altar. So did

Abraham do works of obedience? Yes. And guess what

Paul is saying. He could have boasted about him if that's what justified him before God. Yeah, of course.

Now that destroys the Church of Christ teaching about this obedient works and then you actually doing the works is what justifies you before God.

Now they've interpreted, they won't say this, but they've interpreted Acts 2 .38, Acts 22 .16,

1 Peter 3 .21, Mark 16 .16. We know all the verses, right, Trey? And look, I want to also say Romans 6.

And look, my guy who mentored me for 18 years, love him to death.

He just did a little podcast, and I'll let you figure that out who that is if you are watching this, on when you're justified, when are you saved.

And he is 100 % convinced it's when you get baptized. He talks about Naaman because of Naaman and Romans 6.

And I'm like, I just wanted to jump in that show and explain Romans 6 and what it means that we died with Christ, right?

Like we don't die with Christ in our baptism. Christ doesn't die every time someone gets baptized.

Christ died once, and we died with him because he was our substitute, right?

And so that's what they don't understand. They don't understand that doctrine. Sure. And it's heartbreaking.

Yeah, it is. And my point is that we know the eight proof text or whatever. They've interpreted those such a way where they have to mangle this passage of Scripture.

And what's going on is verse 3, Paul is giving divine interpretation of Genesis 15, 6.

So I've got accused that, oh, Jeremiah, you're just reading the whole Bible through the lens of Romans chapter 4.

Number one, that's not true, but you have to have a systematic theology. You have to look at the whole counsel of God. So, yeah, you do have to account for this text just like I have to account for Acts 2 and the book of Acts and all the rest.

So verse 3, for what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.

I know time is kind of fleeting, but the big point here is the word counted. This means to be impute.

This is an accounting term where you can receive in exchange for something. To be credited.

Now my debate, Trey, yeah, credited, right? I asked Brock, I think a really hard question.

He absolutely refused to answer it. I said, Brock, what do you receive in exchange for your baptism?

Well, he says, I'll quote the Bible, Acts 2 38. I'm like, OK, well, with you just reading that, then you have a contradiction here in Romans chapter 4.

And their next chess move is saying, well, let's talk about works of law. No, it's not. That's not talking.

Abraham is not talking about works of law. In fact, and then we kind of get Paul's explanation, not of works of law, an example of works, but for works, period.

OK, so this is where four and five is so crucial to this, this whole argument that Paul is making. Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as is due.

But, Trey, I didn't earn God's grace by my baptism, but you did it, right?

And they're like, well, that's what Peter told the Jews at Pentecost.

What must we do? Well, you need to repent and be baptized. And save yourselves. And save yourselves, right?

Well, for one, you've got more going on in the book of Acts to tell us exactly what Peter talked about.

And if you actually look at 1 Peter 3 21 in its entirety, the verses before and after, it's almost like Peter is clarifying, hey,

I'm not talking about water that washes or removes dirt. That's not the thing that saves us, right?

So, anyway, I'm just saying there's context to all these verses. What Peter is calling the Jews is he's calling themselves to be all in to Jesus Christ, to truly repent from the heart.

That would entail faith, right? And they would leave their messed up version of Judaism behind, realizing that Judaism is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

So what must you do when you repent and look to Jesus as your Savior? Identify yourself with Him the way that He told us to.

That would demonstrate true saving faith. I want to add to a couple points there.

So just remind me of the wall. But I want to hit 1 Peter 3. And I had a

Church of Christ preacher call me one time about 1 Peter 3 21. And it's because this is how they read it.

It's just ingrained in them. And this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you, right?

This is how I try to give them a look at context. Okay, let's just stop right there. What is this saying? Well, it's saying that baptism saves you.

That's when you get saved. Well, it doesn't say that's when you're saved. It literally says baptism saves you.

It says this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you. So this is why context really matters.

Do you really believe that the waters of baptism save you? Or do you think Jesus Christ saves you? And they're like, well,

Jesus. Because they have to, right? Okay, well, if you really believe Jesus saves you, because that's what the

Christian faith does say. This is now we're talking Christianese, right? Because that's what the Christian faith says. Then you also must say then this verse is not actually saying what you think it's saying.

Because it says this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you. But we know Christ saves us.

So it has to have some context. It must mean something more than what it's saying, right? This is why it matters.

They don't go that deep. And the other thing about the law and what you were talking about, just to add on to that.

A Jewish person, okay, was not a true Jew unless— because you can't be a true

Jew and love the law and hate Jesus. You cannot be a true Jewish person.

Why? Because Jesus fulfilled the law. Like he was the picture perfect. He did it. So you can't love the law and hate

Jesus and be a true Jew. That's what we get in chapter 2 at the end of chapter 2, right? A true

Jew is in the heart, right? But you can't be a Christian either and love all of Jesus and hate the law.

You can't be a true Christian. Why? Because Christ did the law what God requires.

Every one of us, he requires perfection. And thank you, Jesus, that you did it. This is why the

Bible goes on and Paul goes on to say in Romans that the law is perfect and beautiful and righteous and good. We love it, right?

But I don't think they understand that. They separate these two. It's either Jesus or the law. You can't—it's all in Christ, all there.

Yeah, that's awesome. So notice what Paul is saying here. For one, he's not talking about just an example of law anymore or an example of works.

He's talking about the underlying understanding of what works is. And whatever works is, that's not getting you saved.

That's not justifying you. Now to the one who works are gods in mind, stronger meaning saying if you are performing a task to receive something in exchange, then you are earning it.

It is your due. That's why when someone's getting baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sins, then you've earned it.

It's no longer of grace. That's why we know that's not what Peter's talking about. And it's no longer of God. You did it. It's exactly right.

You did it. And they want to argue, no, it's not, I didn't do it. No, you did. You just don't want to admit it.

That's what it is. You don't want to admit that you did it. You did it. Congratulations. And so when you get to heaven, you can wrap your arms around Jesus and say, we did it.

I don't think you're going to say, we did it, right? I don't think you're going to get to heaven and say, you know,

Jesus, aren't you glad I chose your team? Because look at all the people I brought with me. If it wasn't for me, all these people wouldn't be here.

I don't think that's the way we should go. Go back to your Romans 4. Yeah, well, I love you bringing that because we understand that God gives the increase.

Now we've heard Brock Kendall say, well, I believe that. Well, it's like, yeah, but we're talking about being consistent with that.

Just like you said, we're not saying, God, look what I did. Aren't you proud of all this increase? No, God, he's the one working all things together after the counsel of his will.

All things there. That would include the increase, right? He is the one that has purpose there.

So verse 4, now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift.

Literally, grace. It's no longer grace. That's why in verse 16, if I could just hop over there real fast.

That is why it, the promise of salvation through Abraham, depends on faith, pistis, in order that the promise may rest on, what's that word,

Trey? Grace. Grace. So the point is, grace and faith go hand in hand, but works has to be outside of that.

That's why later in Romans 11, verse 6, Paul says, but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works.

Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. So this is Paul's argument throughout the book of Romans.

And so on the flip side, verse 5, into the one who does not work, who does not ergazimai, who does not demonstrate themselves in external actions of performing a task, but believes, right?

This would be pistuo, right? In him who justifies the ungodly, his faith, his pistis is counted as righteousness.

So there's a transaction going on. When you look to Jesus and not to yourself or anything in this world, and you're trusting in him solely, then that's how you receive a perfect righteousness that's alien to yourself, that's foreign to yourself, covering your account completely.

And then all of your sin gets put on the cross of Calvary. And so I want to add this because I know time is fleeting, but in the church of Christ world, they only look at these verses as saying your past sins, your past sins, right?

And I've noticed the line. Most of them, not all, but most. I want to give them a little credit. That's fair. I want to give credit.

Yeah. I want to give credit to the ones that wouldn't impose onto the text there, right?

And wouldn't be breaking the standards of speaking where the Bible speaks and silence where it's silent because it doesn't say past sins.

And we do have Colossians 2, 1 John 1 that talks about how we actually are forgiven of all of our sins because their line of reasoning is, well, what all sin have you committed?

And they would say just the ones in the past. I'm like, yeah, but you're having to look and read into that. It's only talking about the ones in the past because I would say if you continue to live, you're going to continue to sin, right?

So – but here's why past sins doesn't work here, and this is profound and simple all at the same time,

Trey. It's because Jesus is a perfect Savior. Jesus is the perfect righteousness of God.

We read that back in Romans chapter 3 earlier that Jesus is the righteousness of God.

And so if that righteousness is imputed to you, credited to your account, then it's perfect.

And we can know that it's perfect and it covers even our future sin based on what

David said in Psalm 32. So this goes on in verse 6. Just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one whom

God counts righteousness apart from works. I want to pause real quick because the doctrine of sola fide, faith alone, is getting at that we are justified by faith apart from works.

That would be apart from works of law or ceremonial work of baptism, of reading our

Bible, getting up and going to church. It's all the works because that's what works is by definition.

And so guess what? Every example of works that would be human works would not get you in because you could boast.

So that's why. And again, hit this, that Christians do works. We do do works, but those works aren't what justifies, saves us, makes us deemed to be righteous and counted as righteous before God Almighty.

That's not what does it. Those are fruits. Those are outpourings of a changed heart and a changed life. This is what Christians do.

Christians repent. Christians get baptized. Christians go to church. Christians read the Bible. Christians share the gospel. This is what we do.

We evangelize. This is what Christians do. But those doings, this is the important thing, right?

False religion, a false gospel says I obey, therefore I'm accepted. But the gospel says

I'm accepted, therefore I obey. That's why. Right. That's what the true gospel teaches. So I just want to clear that up because if you hit it too hard, we've got to remember this stuff has been dripped into people's heads so long.

They just miss that. They just get off on some – you're saying you don't do anything.

Well, no, no, no. Not for justification, not to be saved. But this is what Christians actually do. We are very active.

This is why we're doing a podcast, right? Oh, yeah. We're doing works right now. Contending for the faith is a work.

And like you said, Ephesians 2 talks about how we are created and ordained for good works.

Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount says that we are to let our light shine before others that when they see our good works, right, it's ultimately going to point back to glorifying

God. So we believe in doing good works as a result of that faith that justifies us before God.

But we don't put our works before. And so kind of two last thoughts for me,

Trey, and we'll have to kind of wrap up here. But, man, I love doing this with you. And you've got this fancy new program. We're going to have to definitely get at it again.

Oh, it's fancy schmancy. This is our first one to do with it, so we're figuring it out. Verse 6 talks about a righteousness that is by faith is apart from works.

So I just want people to hear that when we say faith alone means that we're justified apart from works, this is where he's saying it.

He said it earlier in Romans 3, 28. And then he gives the quotation in Psalm 32. Blessed are those whose lawless deeds, sin, are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. I want to encourage your listeners here.

Go look up the emphatic negation here. This is one of the strongest ways in the

Greek to say will not count his sin. Now, this is in the

Aorist subjunctive. Now, for Greek students, this is one of the strongest usages of saying that it is not imputed and will never be imputed.

Jesus uses this kind of language in the Gospel of John. He says, whoever comes to me, I will by no means ever cast out.

And we understand. He's talking about when someone truly comes to him by grace, through faith, understanding who they are, then

Jesus doesn't let go. Jesus is a perfect Savior. Gosh, that's good news. That truly is good news.

I will never forget when I was – it's so good news to know that you are secure in him.

To know that his words are true, that he came to do the Father's will. And if you ask people, did Jesus come to do the Father's will?

Yeah. Did he accomplish it? Yeah. Well, guess what that was? He tells you in John 6 that he loses nobody. So either he did his will or he didn't.

And if he didn't, he's not the Savior. But if he is, which he is, he loses no one. Because when you read 1

John as a Church of Christ person, whoever continues on sinning is not truly his. And you're like, oh my goodness,

I keep sinning. And you don't understand what this is meaning, what this is saying. Oh, it's miserable. But you can't say it's miserable.

You still have to play the game because it's work, work, work, work, work. And you're just hoping by the time you're 80, you can be like the old elder who's such a good man.

It's so bad. Go ahead. Explain it. I hate to jump in on that.

But go ahead. Finish your thought on that. I understand. Yeah. Last thought is you see

Abraham, you see David, and then you see Paul identifying himself in verses 22 through 25.

And the point is all saints of all time, whether Abraham before the law, whether King David under the law, or Christians after the law's fulfillment, salvation has always been by grace through faith.

Our justification being justified has always been this same way. And so you see that here in Romans chapter 4, and that's why 5 .1

talks about that's how we have peace with God is that we're justified by faith. And it's funny because I'm teaching through Hebrews 11 now.

We see in the hall of faith that it begins with Abel. So we understand that Adam and Eve are a unique type of what happened in the garden, but even

God by his grace provided a covering for them. And so the first saint after Adam and Eve, Abel, we see that it was by his faith that he did what he did and that he was counted.

Different term there. He was favored by God. He was shown favor by his faith, and then we see that how it's demonstrated.

So I want us to perhaps revisit this again in the future. Oh, definitely. Next time

I want to do this again, I want to hit this again right here. And I also want to talk about the gospel itself.

And what is the gospel? We talked about the other day on the phone. There's so many people.

I didn't understand it for years. I didn't. It doesn't make sense. And this is what we are to contend for, the gospel itself, the faith, the whole message here.

And it's worth fighting for to preserve the purity of the doctrines of grace of what

God has done and who he is. He's a sovereign God. Everybody says it. So let's talk about it.

What's your final thought on this? Final thought is for the tens and tens of viewers out there.

Tens. Everything that Paul is talking about here in Romans 4 is the gospel.

The good news, that Christ lived a law, lived a perfect sinless life, was perfectly obedient to the law.

He is the righteousness of God. And if you look to him in faith, when we say alone, we're saying apart from what you can accomplish and do, apart from anything else in the world.

But looking to the only Savior. That's all throughout

Scripture. John 14, 6, Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the

Father except through me. He is the way. He is the only way. That's what that means with the death and the oracle.

And so when you look to Jesus Christ in faith, then you are justified because of that legal exchange that's happened.

And he doesn't just say, good luck with the rest of your life. We've been promised that God will change our heart, that he regenerates us.

He takes out that heart of stone and gives us that heart of flesh. And so we now desire to live a life to glorify

Jesus Christ, to be in that koinonia, that fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the

Spirit, and the rest of the saints. Good deal, man. Good little presentation there of the goodness of the gospel.

I just encourage people, if you're still watching this, to read Romans 4, 20 -22, and you'll see why

Abraham was considered righteous and counted righteous. It was not because of what he did with Isaac.

It wasn't because he packed his bags on the left, his family. Nope. It tells you very clearly. It says, literally, this is one.

This is one. This is one. And so it's simply by faith, by believing God's word, trusting

God's word against his own reality. Like his reality said, there's no way that's possible, but I believe your word.

And so when you think this is just too much, it can't be like this, believe the word.

Because the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and that is Christ Jesus. So thanks for listening. Thanks for doing this,

Jeremiah. I love it. I feel like you're a co -host, and I'm a co -host on your show, and you're a co -host on my show.

I love it. That's right. I learned a lot from you. I know we've got some things planned coming up this summer. It's going to be awesome.

You're coming down here to preach for us in a couple weeks. Had some of your people down here last week. Awesome people.

Love them. So thanks, man. I appreciate you preaching to me. I appreciate learning from you and talking with you and Nathan.