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August 30, 2017:
JOHN SAMSON, author & pastor of KING’s CHURCH, PEORIA, AZ to discuss “The Importance of CHURCH MEMBERSHIP & the FALLACY of the MAVERICK, LONE WOLF CHRISTIAN”
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnton.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 30th day of August 2017.
I'm so delighted to have back on the program a returning guest who has become one of my favorite guests and also has become a dear friend. His name is John Sampson, and he is an author and the pastor of King's Church Peoria, Arizona.
We are discussing today the importance of church membership and the fallacy of the maverick lone wolf Christian, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor John Sampson.
It's great to be with you again, Chris, I always enjoy being with you. And for those of our listeners who have never heard Pastor Sampson before, one very fascinating aspect of his life is that he is a former Word of Faith Pentecostal pastor and also a former Word of Faith Pentecostal talk show host, having served as a host on the local TBN affiliate in the Peoria, Arizona area.
And he came to the doctrines of sovereign grace by God's sovereign grace, and he is now a Reformed Baptist pastor. And King's Church in Peoria, Arizona is a church adhering to the 1689 London Baptist Confession.
Why don't you tell us, our listeners who have not heard you on this program before or have not heard you on James White's The Dividing Line program, why don't you explain to our listeners, especially those discovering you for the first time, a little bit more about.
King's Church? Yeah, we're very much seeing some major things happening and very much encouraged by what we're families in the church already. We don't have all the bells and whistles in place, but we have at least one bell in the next month.
But we're looking at whistles in the next.
Calendar year. Don't add too many bells or you'll wind up becoming a Catholic church.
That's very true. If I get too many bells, it'll be a lot of whistles.
And I think that you are a reminder to some of us who are staunch Reformed people who are perhaps so meticulous in our doctrine and so on, who unfortunately sometimes, it really goes polar opposite to the doctrines of grace we believe, but we have a tendency sometimes to give up hope or even develop any kind of hope for the salvation or the transformation of someone from that extreme heresy of word of faith Pentecostalism of ever becoming a sound and biblically faithful pastor.
We just don't even think in that category very often. And you are a living example of someone who God drew out of that heresy and into solid biblical Reformational.
Theology. Many times they're not even willing to show mercy towards me, but he put in me a desire to know the truth. When people do come out again, it's just as someone entrapped in the grace.
And I know that you have written a couple of books and there's a new booklet out that we already interviewed you on. And anybody who wants to hear the interview on your booklet, The Five Solas Standing Together Alone, they can go to ironsharpensironradio .com and click on the archive for the program.
And the archive button is on the top right side of the page where it says Past Shows and in parentheses Podcast. If you type in Samson in the search engine of that archive, S-A-M-S-O-N, leave the P out of that, S-A-M-S-O-N, and you will get all of the interviews that we've had with Pastor John Samson.
But for those of our listeners who missed your interview on The Five Solas Standing Together Alone, why don't you give an abbreviated.
Description of that book? Well, there's a lot of great, not everybody has something out there, that language. And I didn't see anything out there that I was really happy with. And so write something very concise, but yet able to talk about those things without the so necessary to understand this one because more accessible.
And I ended up with just and it can be read in about an hour. And one of the testimonies I have is that my mother, who died in May, one of the great pain the last few days. And my wife, Linda, was able to read the manuscript at that time.
The manuscript of this, it allows you to face death knowing the Word of God. So on the basis of vacation before God being declared right in his sight is on the basis in the person of the Lord. And that's why all of the glory for salvation goes to God alone, no other denomination or church.
Well, if anybody wants to order that book, and I strongly urge pastors to order at least a case of this booklet, because it is a very affordable and brief booklet on a very important issue. If you want to stack your track racks, or just to put them on the table in your foyer or your narthex for not only your members, but your visitors, especially if you're having a Reformation Day celebration, this would be the ideal booklet for you to hand out.
And go to solid-ground-books .com to order that book, The Five Solas Standing Together Alone. And that's from Solid Ground Christian Books, solid-ground-books .com, solid-ground-books .com. I had a very interesting conversation with.
A pastor in Ireland, Northern Ireland, and he was expressing his gratitude for the book, and he called it a booklet, of course. And so I said, well, if it's that good, you're going to ask me to come and do a booklet tour.
And he laughed like you're laughing.
Well, we are addressing a very important topic today, the importance of church membership and the fallacy of the maverick lone wolf Christian. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.
And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA. And obviously a subject like this especially might lend itself to someone asking a question that is in regard to a personal and private matter.
Perhaps you've been horribly scarred mentally and spiritually, perhaps even physically, from a horrible experience you had being a member of a church. Perhaps it was a church that was cultic or overbearing in its authoritarianism or some other issue.
Perhaps you were molested by a church leader or even just a fellow member, or there was some other horrible event that occurred that has perhaps made you extremely resistant to the idea of joining another church.
I understand that would compel you to remain anonymous. We will understand that and grant your request to remain anonymous. But if it's not about a personal and private matter, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
This is an important matter, Pastor John, because I'm sure you have met and I have met many people over the last 30 years of being a born-again believer where there are Christians who, or should I say professing Christians, who will say, well I don't see anywhere in the Bible where becoming a member of a church is necessary for salvation.
I see nothing but sinners and Pharisees and charlatans and hypocrites and frauds in the church everywhere I look. I am just fine by studying the Bible alone at home, having small gatherings perhaps of fellow believers in my home, having Bible studies, but I don't need to be a member of any church.
Been there, done that, ain't gonna do it again. And this is really not reflecting the heart and mind of a biblically literate born-again believer in Christ, is it? Not at all. I remember a conversation I had with.
Someone, and as the conversation normally goes when someone asks me, you know, what is it you do? And I say, well I'm a pastor. Sometimes that opens up more conversation, sometimes it just flatly shuts it down.
But not everybody, you know, wants to talk to a pastor. But one reaction I had, which is interesting, was a lady telling me, well I'm not into organized religion, just so you know. And my response was, oh, so you're into disorganized religion?
And they didn't really know what to do with that. But I'd like to kind of address what you said, because your question had so much emotion in it, and I really, as a pastor, my heart grieves to even think and consider that people have had those kind of experiences.
And I'm coming from the background of for many years as a pastor, not having what I now have as in terms of biblical church membership. And coming from that exact perspective, saying, where's that in the New Testament?
And over the course of the program, I'd love to get into some of the scriptures which only make sense in the light of biblical membership. Right from the beginning in Genesis 4, there's a description of Cain and Abel and the two offerings that were brought towards God.
And one was accepted by God, that of Abel, and the other was rejected. And if you do a bit of research on not only that passage, but what we find out in the book of Hebrews as well, chapter 11, which speaks about that incident, Cain is bringing his offering from the fruit of the ground.
It speaks of man's labor, whereas Abel is bringing a blood sacrifice. There's an animal that's been slain. And Hebrews 11 tells us that that offer on faith, and again, doing some research with other passages in our Bibles, faith comes on the basis of not nice music or a certain attitude towards God, but it comes by hearing the Word of God, Romans 10, 17.
So if an offering's based on faith, it's based on the revelation that God has given. And so Cain did the exact same labor, and the Bible's very clear that Cain's offering was rejected, Abel's was accepted.
And I think if you go then all the way through to the end of our Bibles, you've got Cain's religion producing the harlot of Revelation 17, and Abel's religion producing the bride. And so right from the get-go in our Bibles, not every kind of religion is accepted by God.
We go on to the book of Exodus and Leviticus and Numbers, where we have the outlining of the tabernacle. And again, God never said to Moses, hey, take a survey, ask what kind of service people will come to.
It's the exact opposite. God says, this is how you'll worship me. This is how you'll approach me. Everything is to be done. Everything, all things according to the pattern shown you on the mount in Exodus 25.
And that's a phrase we find repeated in the New Testament, Acts 7, 44, Hebrews 8, 5. Let me just quote Acts 7. Our fathers, Stephen said, had the tent of witness in the wilderness, just as he who spoke to Moses directed him to make it according to the pattern that he had seen.
So all that to say, there's a way of approaching God that is acceptable, but it's on his terms. And anytime we make up our own religion, I would say to anyone who's been hurt, may God heal every wound.
My heart bleeds as a pastor to hear some of the things you mentioned, even as a theory, to realize we're talking about people that actually experience those things, how heartbreaking that is. And yet I would say to them and to all of us, God still says what he says, and we have no right to make up our own religion and the way of approaching.
And when we come to the scriptures, God has not only the way of salvation very clearly defined, but also what happens to the Christian after he comes to know the Lord. And that is, he is, she is to be in the nurture of a local church, and that's what I'd love to get into.
Yes, of course. And I have said this many times on this program and off the air, that very often people will reject Jesus because of Judas. Judas was one of the 12 apostles, and yet he wound up betraying Christ in a manner that led to his murder.
Now, of course, we know that Jesus laid down his life willingly, and it was ordained that he die by his own father. But nonetheless, those that here on earth were the human culprits involved in his persecution and execution are no less guilty because of that.
And if Jesus Christ did not expect people to reject him because of what Judas did, there's no reason why people should reject Christ's church because of what some horrific church has done or what some cult has done to bring about serious harm, whether mental, spiritual, or physical upon anyone.
Would I be.
Correct in saying that? Yeah, absolutely. And the Lord of the Church, I'm sure, is deeply grieved by all of that, and the honest truth is, all those who've been involved in that will stand before the Lord one day, and it won't be an exciting prospect at all.
It'll be a day of dread for those that have inflicted harm on the people of God. Yet the Lord of the Church summons his people into the body of Christ, where he has ordained that we, the members, have elders over us in the Lord who are to watch over our souls as under-shepherds of Christ.
And that's something that has to be part of a local church, to be a local church, something that God recognizes. There's no such animal in the New Testament, no such person in the New Testament as someone who is a follower of Christ, who's not part of a local church.
And there's certain verses in the New Testament that scream church membership, and it's a lot like the Trinity. You can't just turn to one verse and say, there it is, there's one verse that shows you the Trinity, but it's putting the Scriptures together so that you and I can say, the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity clearly.
And I've come to see that the Bible teaches the doctrine of membership of the local.
Church clearly, and I'd love to talk more about that. Yes, in fact, I know that you have verses and texts of your own to bring up, but I want to... Actually, they're from the Bible, but... Anyway, in Hebrews chapter 13, verse 17, we read, Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.
Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. Now, obviously, how are you supposed to submit to leaders, obey and submit to them, if you're not even a member of your church?
And how are you supposed to have these ordained men keeping watch over your souls and giving an account for your soul if you are not a member of a church? I don't know how people who are professing Christians who claim to know the Scriptures can escape the truth behind this.
That's a very good point, and that was one of.
My verses. But just to look at that verse, I remember reading it and thinking of someone who was a pastor. Two things are there staring at me in the text that I didn't see for years, because I just went on to what I thought were more exciting things to talk about and study, but two things have to be assumed for that Scripture to be applied.
Number one, the people know which leaders they are to obey and submit to. They're not to submit to every leader in every church, but it says, obey your leaders and submit to them. And then number two, the leaders know which people they are to give an account for, not merely anyone who shows up at a service, but someone who comes along and says, I'm considering you guys my elders, I'm submitting myself to you, and I want you to watch over my soul.
And the picture in my mind is a staggeringly haunting one, and rightly so, that one day I as an elder will stand before the Lord and he'll say, do you remember Sister So-and-so? She was in your church for three years, and you need to, right at this moment, give an account for how you led her towards Christ-likeness.
Did you nurture her? What was she hearing in the sermons? What did you do to pray for her? Did you pray for her? Was it a regular occurrence? Do you even know her name? And give an account, John, right now, and then do that for everyone else who's been part of your church however long that has been.
And that's scary, and it's meant to be scary, so that we understand the relationship here. The people know who their leaders are they submit to, and the leaders know which people they are to give an account for.
And this is Christ, through the writer to Hebrews, giving us this instruction. This is not someone off on his own tangent. This is Christ nurturing his people and saying, I want my people in a nurturing relationship whereby I'm able to feed them in the feeding.
House, which is the local church. We're going to go to our first break right now, and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question about church membership, we would love to hear from you at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. You may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable, because the question is about a personal and private matter.
But if it's not about something that personal and private, please at least give us your first name, city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back with John Sampson and the importance of church membership.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Armson, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio for the full two hours is John Sampson, who is an author and pastor of King's Church Peoria, Arizona, and in studio with me, who has just joined us due to an appointment he had before the program.
We have back in the studio the Reverend Buzz Taylor,.
My co-host, and it's great to have you back. It's good to be here, and you know I missed the first part of the conversation, but I felt like I've been here from the beginning because I've already been fed just the last few minutes, because this was a big issue in my life.
Yeah, why don't you tell us about that?
Well, of course, I was ordained back in 1984, and of course anybody who's ever...
So there was something Orwellian about your ordination.
There was, yes. But anybody who's been through ordination knows exactly what it's like to when you get grilled, and one of the questions I was asked at my ordination council was, what do you believe are the requirements for church membership?
And I had just come recently out of a non-denominational church that didn't believe in church membership, and I was sort of persuaded the same way at that time, and that really caused a stir, and I was really worried about my ordination at that point.
But they decided with further counsel from the pastor that I was assisting at the time that they would ordain me after he enlightened me about church membership. And I have to admit, they did a terrible job of trying to convince me of church membership.
It wasn't until I really came into Reformed understanding that I started to understand even the concept of church membership as I understood covenant theology and so forth. Then I started seeing exactly like...
I mean, you just mentioned from Hebrews, how do you get around that?
Right. And yeah, Pastor John, I don't know, have you been my co-host when Pastor John.
Sampson has been my guest before? I'm not exactly certain. Chris,.
You've interviewed so many people. Well, anyway, Pastor John, you and Reverend Buzz Taylor have something in common in that you were both charismatic at one time and both came into the Reformed faith, although Reverend Buzz Taylor was never in the Word of Faith movement.
Well, I tickled it. Yeah. I was getting materials from Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland for a while. And I even took some of my church members of a non-charismatic church to some Hagin meetings. But when I started hearing some of the things that they believed, which were not taught to me before, as soon as I started hearing about Proto-Heaven and all that stuff that they taught, I immediately saw through it.
And it's like, I can't be part of this.
But Pastor John, Reverend Buzz Taylor brings up something interesting because it's not just lone wolf Christians who don't want to have any oversight upon their lives. They don't want to have any ruling elders overseeing them and leaving themselves open to discipline.
It's not just these lone wolves who are thinking that they don't need pastors or churches to be in fellowship with. There are churches that don't believe in church membership. They don't think it's a biblical concept.
I can remember years ago, I don't know if you remember this, this may have been in the 80s, perhaps the 90s, but there was a news-breaking event where a Church of Christ congregation was being sued by a woman who was put under church discipline because she was an unrepentant adulteress.
And she sued the church because she was not a member of the church because the church didn't believe in membership. And therefore, she was suing them on the basis of character assassination and so on because of the fact that the church made her situation public as any church should if a person is unrepentant over a serious issue especially.
And she sued the church. I can't remember whether she won the suit or not, but there are churches out there, even conservative churches.
That do not believe in church membership. Very true, and I was a pastor who would have said the same. I don't see it in the scripture because I couldn't find a verse that taught it. But again, the whole premise of the New Testament is when someone is converted, they repent, they believe, they're baptized, and they're added to the church, which is not merely the church universal, they're a member of the body of Christ, but a local church.
And if we can just get that concept that's really in place in our minds, we don't get to decide what the church is. It's Christ who does that. And both in the Old and the New Testament, God has said, this is how you'll approach me.
It's my way. That's what the tabernacle was. It was not the polling of the Israelites and showing you on the mountain. Similarly, when Jesus, in Matthew chapter 18, walks through the scene that this person is to be treated as a tax collector, which really means to be treated as someone outside of the covenant community, there's a definite in and a definite out.
You go to the elders, you go to the church, and there's a process involved that, again, was very eye-opening to me when I sat before some elders, and they were grilling me, and they were asking me about certain things that happened in my life, and even as a pastor, and they said, so if you had a biblical church, this is how we would have done it.
And my eyes were just open to realize, wow, you actually do? And they said, yeah, that's Jesus' commandment with all kinds of issues in relationship, and that's right, yeah, well-solving issues, and that is under the protection of the local church.
Oftentimes we see the abuses, things that you characterized at the beginning of the program today, and we are aghast, and our reaction is to run the other way a thousand miles an hour if we could, but if we get back to our standing there as Lord of the church saying, will you take on what I say?
And when we see Jesus' words, there are members of a church that you can go see the elders and talk about specific issues, and then in the New Testament, again, for us Corinthians, we have the incident in chapter 5 where there's gross immorality taking place, and if repentance doesn't happen, he's to be put, and to be put out means that there's first an end.
You can't be put, you can't leave a building unless you're first put out means that someone was, it's in that context that the whole New Testament comes to us. God expected that when, because they would be part of the gathered community, so that when Paul wrote to the Galatians, for example, ordained elders, not just people who met in a Titus 1 -5.
Paul writes to Titus and says, the reason I left you in Crete was that you might set in order what was unfinished and appoint elders in every town as I directed you, and he's saying, I want elders in every town.
If you don't have elders, I'm finished in getting a church started, and again, getting that in our framework is so different because we're so used to individualized Christianity, it's just me and Jesus.
I've got my Bible, I can listen to preachers, I can watch Christian television, I can do my own thing, but if we go back to the Lord Jesus and we take his word, I don't believe Jesus considers that a church, even meeting together with fellow Christians, unless there is these components of the word of God and baptism being administered and church discipline of the people.
And just a little bit more, if there's someone who's scamming the elderly amongst the church and protect the flock, and it's the elder's job to say, this is not right doctrine you're teaching, and you either need to repent of this or you need to leave because we are not allowing wolves to reign in the flock.
And it's for the protection of the people, for the nurturing of the people, so that when the Lord Jesus has one of his sheep, he can put that sheep in the protection of one of his group of under-shepherds, tightly nurtured, and the wolves don't run free.
And the Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say.
I think it's also noteworthy, I mentioned before in my short testimony there about, it was a fundamental Baptist ordination council that ordained me, and I said that they didn't do a very adequate job of explaining church membership to me, but that was also a group of churches that not only didn't believe in elders in the church, they were vehemently opposed.
It was unheard of that a Baptist church would have elders in it, and it's interesting because you mentioned from Titus, they would appoint elders in the church and you knew who the were appointed and they knew who they were leading.
In other words, they believed in the authority of a sole single pastor, or perhaps a pastor and associate pastor.
Or congregations, you know, voting. Well, listen, the church that I was in at the time, where I was an assistant pastor, not while I was there, but I heard in previous years, they would vote on how much toilet paper to buy.
I mean, it was really pathetic.
But as far as the visible leader in the church, it was a single pastor.
Right, single pastor.
And they did not believe that the office of pastor and elder were even the same.
No, they did not.
Okay. Now, obviously, from what you were saying, they didn't even believe the elder was a biblical office. In fact, how could they escape that? Because that's the wording in the Bible.
Well, what's interesting is that the church that I was assisting before I took my senior pastor, which was at the time of my ordination, when I was moving into my first senior pastor, when I was assisting that pastor, he was trying to convince his congregation of elders.
And, you know, I've had people come up to me afterwards and say, how can you work with him? He has elders in the church.
Well, weird. Anyway, so Pastor John Sampson, I know that you have some texts that you want to enlighten us with.
They're obvious when you see them, and I don't want to bore people who are so familiar with these things. But again, just understanding that it's not simply Jesus and me, me and Jesus. It's Jesus loving us enough to put us in a group where we will grow.
And he says, this is where you'll meet me. You know, the Israelite who was of the tribe of Naphtali, let's say, back in the Old Testament, he didn't get to decide how he would approach God. He came on God's terms and he would go to the feasts as God directed on the days God directed with the offering God directed, the way God directed ad infinitum until God said otherwise.
And it was the same with the tabernacle, move with the cloud, not move when you don't like the area where you're planted. It's move when God says move. And so in the New Testament, Jesus still loves his church.
He died for the church. He loves the church. He still loves the church. He gave himself up for her, Ephesians 5. And to claim to be one who loves Jesus, would we not love what he loves? He loves the church.
And so there's an assumption with the listening audience that they love Jesus. They love the gospel. I would assume too that they would want their local church to be a place where they could be known, loved, cared for.
And when you see that the New Testament is, the epistles are written to people in local churches, to churches as well as individuals, but individuals who are part of churches, we're one body in Christ.
The imagery of 1 Corinthians 12, the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you. We need one another. Whoever isolates himself, Proverbs 18, one seeks his own desire and breaks out against all sound judgment.
The desire to be independent of other Christians is forbidden. It's not armed. There's no such animal in the New Testament of the Christian by himself. We want a place we can call home. We want a place where we can, if there's an issue, go through a Matthew 18 experience.
You can't do that with just three buddies meeting in a coffee shop. There's not an organizational structure. And that's the problem. That's what I started with. The lady says, I'm not into organized religion.
Well, Jesus is. He's organized the way we are to approach him on the basis of the hands. Once inside the kingdom, we are to be part of this. The good shepherd who cares for his sheep. And just as the Trinity is a biblical concept, not because we can turn to one verse.
Church membership is a biblical concept where members, one of another, that phrases is used, but we are to be accountable to local leaders. And here's the thing I wanted to say, because people often get, because of their bad experience, perhaps say that's scary to me.
Elders are members too. And when an elder goes astray, the other elders, because biblically there should be a plurality, can do Matthew 18 on him. And so this protection Christ function is being carried out in the local church.
It's because there's been a lack of the biblical procedure and organization that we have all these horror stories of one man making his will known. And everybody has to say, yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
But in a biblical assembly, that would never be the case. There is a plurality of male elders. Let's just say it male elders. And they are given the description of their character in first Timothy three and Titus as well.
And these are the people you look for Timothy, when you're setting up your church, your local church, look for these characteristics, but that makes no sense. If elders aren't even needed, why even waste pen ink to tell him what.
To look for in elders if you don't need elders to be a church. Now, how do you respond to the individual who says, Well, look, in Hebrews chapter 10, verse 25, we read that we're not supposed to forsake our own assembling together, as it is the habit of some, but encourage one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near, they'll say, Look, I go to I attend a worship service every week.
I'm not forsaking the assembly. I'm there every Sunday. In fact, I'm there twice on Sunday and once on Wednesday night, but I just don't believe in membership. I don't want to be a member. How do you respond to that person who will say that that text is not saying anything about membership.
It's only saying that we are not to forsake.
The assembling with one another. I would talk to them about the fact that although that text doesn't mention formal church membership, everything else in our Bibles, certainly the New Testament screams that in the sense of define what an assembly is.
According to God, an assembly, what he ordains it to be, what he defines it to be, and that is the inclusion of local church elders, a church that he considers a church. It's not a church till there are elders in place, and the reformers listed three basic functions that need to be in place for there to be a biblical church.
One is the true preaching of the word, the gospel, the right administration of the sacraments, baptism, Lord's Supper, and the third one, which is really surprising, is church discipline. And unless church discipline was there, the Protestant reformers, based on the Bible, would say it's not a true church.
There's no protection for the sheep. There's no protection. Why would I as Luther in Germany say to someone in another country, it's okay to go to that place if there's no elders in place? Because someone can run riot with false doctrine or get them into some kind of financial scheme, and there's no one to bring order and discipline and say, stop that.
Stop that. Where's the discipline? And that's something you and I don't hear in our normal circles, especially in, you know, let me just say it, the Western world, and especially America, where we think we are in control, and God says, excuse me, I'm in control, and I'll say what a church is, and I believe the reformers got it right.
Unless this church discipline, which of necessity means church membership, here's a scenario. I was talking with a pastor recently. He's had a person that's been part of the church, in a sense of attending, for 11 years, and they've never become members.
And this person is causing some issues, but he can't do a thing because they're not members. And I'm thinking that there's a problem there because there's no protection for the members. And I was talking with another group of elders recently, and they said they have a three-month visiting policy.
I said, what is that? I've never heard of that. They said this. We tell people openly, we encourage you to come visit us, all of our services, prayer meetings, Wednesday nights, for three months. And after three months, if you're not wanting to be a member here, we would encourage you to find another place where you can be a member, because biblically, we believe that every Christian should be in a church and be a member of the church.
And if it's not us, it needs, capital N-E-E-D-S, it needs to be somewhere else. And for us to give you access to our people, and you not to even start the process of even coming to a membership class to learn what it is to be involved, it means you have no willingness to submit to the Lord Jesus, not us.
It's Jesus who says there should be elders. It's Jesus who said, submit to those elders and elders watch over them as those who'll give an account, watch over their souls. It's Jesus through the writer to the Hebrews.
It's Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. So we can say we love Jesus, but if we treat what he says with disdain, I don't believe we truly love Jesus. Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments. And his commandment is assemble yourselves and implied in that word assemble is on Christ's terms, which is in a place where there are ordained elders who will watch over your soul.
So even that verse screams the ordination of elders and submission to it for it to be a legitimate place to assemble. That's our answer. It's a long, long answer.
Well, we have to go. We have to go to our midway break now. And if anybody would like to join us, send us an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with John Sampson on the importance of church membership. Tired of box store Christianity, of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert?
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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.
That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.
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Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.
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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on WLIE radio, www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.
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Yes, everyone needs a pastor. That's going right along with the theme of our show today, the importance of church membership with our guest, John Sampson, author and pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.
If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor John Sampson on church membership, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Before we return to our discussion, I have some important announcements to make.
The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, in cooperation with the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship, present the Gospel of the Reformation 500th Anniversary Celebration featuring Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary.
He is a professor of apologetics and Islam on the faculty at Toronto Baptist Seminary, and that event will be held on Friday, September 29th, and Saturday, September 30th. If you would like more details on this event, go to wotchurch .com.
That's W-O-T, which stands for Word of Truth Church .com, wotchurch .com, or you could call the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island at 631 -806 -0614. That's 631 -806 -0614. Then the very following day, on Sunday, October 1st, Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Medford, Long Island, New York, is also having Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary speak for them at their morning worship service.
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Then coming up in November from the 17th through the 18th, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is having their annual Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quaker Town, Pennsylvania.
The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, a reference to Satan from the classic reformational hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress. And the speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.
If you would like to join us at the For Still Our Ancient Foe conference, which is a conference of the Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on Quaker Town Conference on Reform Theology.
Then after that, coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th, the G3 Conference returns to Atlanta, Georgia, the three G's standing for Grace, Gospel, and Glory. And this year's, or should I say, this January's theme for the G3 Conference is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.
It's another theme that really is connected to our topic today. The importance of church membership. Speakers include Stephen Lawson, Votie Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .P. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Methenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.
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Well, we're back to our discussion with John Sampson, pastor of the King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, the theme today being the importance of church membership and the fallacy of the maverick lone wolf Christian.
If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.
And Pastor John, one of the verses that speaks, I think, very strongly in favor of church membership is in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses 12 through 27. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one spirit. For the body is not one member but many. It's clearly describing the church as being comprised of members, and when you combine all of the other verses using the whole counsel of God in regard to this subject, whether it be the submission to the elders in a church, those that are held responsible for our very souls and so on, and when it comes to the ordinances of the church, it seems to me that you cannot escape that membership is a very biblical thing, if you could respond.
Yeah, absolutely. I think you've nailed it with what you've said there, and that's just one of many passages that address the issue of don't think you are doing Christianity by yourself and saying you don't need anyone else.
Some people in that position say, well, I do say I need someone else, but only for fellowship, and I don't need to be part of a local church, and while I can understand that, I don't believe it has any weight biblically, although I once understood that position because I held it myself.
Again, you look at that passage, you look at places like 1 Peter 5, Peter is speaking, and he writes, shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly as God would have you, and it talks about being an example, but it says to those in your charge, to those in your charge, he says that means your portion, your lot, those that you're responsible for, and again, the implication screams that the elders knew those for whom they were responsible, and that's just another way of talking about membership.
If we don't want to be held accountable by a group of elders and be under their care, we're going to resist the idea of membership, but again, they'll resist God's appointed way for them to live and be sustained in their faith.
We've talked about Matthew 18, and I've talked about how that passage there, verses 15 through 17, about the way to solve human relationships when they go sour, screams church membership. If there's no church membership, how can you define the group that's going to take up the matter of exhorting the unrepentant person, rendering a judgment?
How does all that happen if it's just you and three Christians in a coffee shop? It's a definable group. It's led by people who can make decisions about who's in and who's out, and 1 Corinthians 5, I alluded to it, but it's worth reading verses 12 and 13 there, where Paul is speaking about the necessity of putting someone out of the church, and again, for there to be an out, there has to be an in.
He writes this, what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? Before we move on, how does that apply to someone who doesn't believe in church membership?
It makes no sense whatsoever. It goes on. God judges those outside, purge the evil person from among you, and there's huge implications here. It talks about in the church, outside the church. People knew what that meant.
There's a line of demarcation. It's definable. There's recognized boundaries, and I remember coming across a quote, and I have it written down here. It's actually funny, but it makes a real good point.
It's by Michael McKinley, and he says, I cannot be removed from the Northern California Left-Handed Golfers Association because I've never been a member of such an organization. Now, according to their website, the NCLHGA will remove people from membership for several reasons, like right-handedness, perhaps.
I'm in no danger of being subject to such an action because you can't kick a person out who is never a member to begin with, and he's making a point. For this man to be put out of the church, he was in the church.
He was known by the leaders. Church discipline, chapter 5, verse 4 of 1 Corinthians, it says, when you are assembled. He's not talking to those in the coffee shop or meeting at the bus stop or on the way to work or just in a meeting room in an office where there is not this assembly of the saints under governmental control of elders.
They knew, Ken, when the church gathered, the church would have to be known who the people are in the church. It's vital we understand that. There's another verse, 2 Corinthians 2, 6, that I remember reading over many, many times for decades and not seeing this.
2 Corinthians 2, 6, and it refers to the discipline of the church inflicted on an individual as this. Here's this quote, punishment by the majority. And I remember reading that and thinking, punishment by the majority.
In other words, the majority of the church here has made a decision. And for you and I and anyone and Paul, because of the use of language, the existence of the word majority, and I'm saying to anyone who says, I don't believe in church membership.
What do you do with this? What do you do with this? What do you do with Hebrews 13, 17? What do you do with this verse? The existence of a majority only makes sense if there was a defined set of people from which the majority is constituted.
You can't have the majority of an unspecified group. You can't say 30 people is the majority if we don't understand that and there has to be 59 or less for 30 to be a majority. Makes sense. Just the law of mathematics.
If you're going to say the majority made this decision and there was 30 people, it's got to be 59 people or less for that to be a real logical statement. So was it the majority of people who happened to be present at the coffee shop or at the meeting place?
Even the gathering of the church?
No.
Could non-Christians vote? Let's know the country from Sweden and they're there on that Sunday. Are they allowed to vote? I don't believe so. No, it's local Christians who are part of a local assembly and all the people know who the members are for the statement the majority made this decision to be accurate and true.
And with that, we could rest our case. It's absolutely clear when you see it. For there to be a majority, you have to know in defined terms how many people there are that constitute the whole.
Yeah, and for those of our listeners who think that the church is just something you visit or the church is just a building, nothing can speak louder or clearer than Ephesians 5, 25. Husbands, love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her.
Are you just visiting this her that this verse speaks of? Or are you a member of her? Do you want Christ to love you? Or does Christ just love the entity that you're visiting? I know that I definitely want to be loved and I'm so delighted and grateful and filled with thanksgiving and praise that I am loved by this Jesus Christ who loves the church.
And I'm so thankful and grateful that I am a member of this church that he loves and laid down his life for it. I mean, it's inescapable that the church is not just some thing that people visit once or twice a week or three times a week.
It is a body of people.
Absolutely, absolutely. I would ask our other guest host if he wants to jump in on that and what his experience would be in addressing exactly that.
Yeah, well, Buzz, back in the days when you did not believe in church membership, this is actually when you were mature enough in the faith where you were actually having an ordination examination. What did you, how did you view the church?
First of all, a lot of these passages, it's hard to explain from my perspective. Now what I thought then because I've seen where I've, you know, things in the scriptures where I'm like, how did I miss that the first time through?
I know, exactly, exactly. When you see it, you think it's so obvious. How did I miss that for 28 years?
Of course, now, I had a lot of respect for the man who was my pastor at that time, but it was a church that did not believe in a physical membership role, yet they had, that was the church that also started me to believe in the concept of elders in the church.
So, I mean, it was kind of a mixed up mess. The pastor was a former Southern Baptist pastor who, he was in the ministry for 16 years before he actually came to Christ. And then he said, we're going to have a New Testament church.
And one of his deacons said, you're not gonna be around here long. And he says, he wasn't. But, you know, he would say things like, just, you know, obviously playing the devil's advocate now. He would look at things like, you know, the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Well, did they vote every day? No, they didn't. It was the Lord who was adding to the church, not the people. And that was, of course, their argument against church membership, things like that.
Well, we have some listeners here that have asked questions. We have Joe in Slovenia who says, dear brother Chris, thank you for addressing yet another vital contemporary topic. If I'm not mistaken, A .W. Pink eventually withdrew himself from fellowship with all churches.
If this is true, what should we make of such a theological giant taking this course? What is Brother Sampson's counsel for simultaneously striving for purity in sound doctrine and maintaining gracious fellowship?
That's actually two questions. Yes, I don't know if you know much about A .W. Pink, Pastor John Sampson, but that is true that A .W. Pink tragically did withdraw himself when he retired from the pastoral ministry.
He withdrew himself from fellowship with all churches. He had such a pessimistic view of the church, and he was also an introverted man to begin with, that those things combined caused him to withdraw.
And I don't know if he ever had a theological defense of that. I don't know if he admitted that with some kind of pride or satisfaction that he was obeying God, but he did withdraw from the church. All that means is that the best of men are men at best, that all men are sinners, and even a theological giant, we can learn from such a great hero as A .W. Pink, but that doesn't mean we have to follow and imitate everything that he did or thought.
Am I right?
Absolutely. I think you've succinctly said what I would say in that scenario. I knew of that also, and I think that's a tragedy in one sense, and yet hopefully it doesn't stop me or anyone else from feeding on his material where he is right.
I think Paul's admonition is very good at this point where he says, follow me as I follow Christ, and the implication is, where I don't follow Christ, don't follow me. And I think of Spurgeon, though, and I came across a quote of his where he says, the church is the dearest place on earth, and he says, give yourself to the church.
You that are members of the church have not found it perfect, and I hope that you feel almost glad that you have not. If I had never joined a church till I had found one that was perfect, I would never have joined one at all.
At the moment I did join it, if I had found one, I should have spoiled it, for it would not have been a perfect church after I had become a member of it. Still, imperfect as it is, it is the dearest place on earth to us.
All who have first given themselves to the Lord should, as speedily as possible, also give themselves to the Lord's people. How else is there to be a church on the earth? If it is right for anyone to refrain from membership in the church, it is right for everyone, and then the testimony for God would be lost to the world.
He's making the point, if it's right for one, it's right for everybody to withdraw, even if some of our heroes in the faith didn't quite see this. That's true of all of us. Luther had amazing insight on the gospel, but that doesn't mean he was infallible, doesn't mean he got it right on everything, even though we celebrate this year probably more than any other in our generation what happened in the 16th century Protestant Reformation under Luther and others that God used, but he was the spearhead for sure, and yet there's no way we would say he was infallible.
So let's be like Spurgeon and see what the scripture says, and when we see someone refraining from membership, however we might esteem them, let's go with the scripture rather than with the man.
And the second question that Joe in Slovenia had is, what is Brother Sampson's counsel for simultaneously striving for purity in sound doctrine and maintaining gracious fellowship?
I think one of the keys there is having the maturity to understand the difference between major doctrines of the faith and that which is still while important, not deal breakers regarding fellowship. Regarding church eldership, I think it's right for elders to say this is what we believe scripture says regarding, say, the manner and mode of water baptism, and that's why I heard of a church in Japan where half the elders believed in credo baptism, that someone needs to come to faith before they're baptized, and half the elders were those who believed in infant baptism, and everyone at the beginning thought this was a wonderful thing of unity.
How wonderful that people are coming together this way, and all was well and happy in this little church until there was a couple who had a baby. And the decision was, well, what happens now? If they went to half the elders, they'd say, baptize the little one, and the others would say, don't do that.
Wait till he comes to a profession of faith. And so there needs to be a clear word. There needs to be a word that says, this is what the Bible teaches and we affirm, and this is what we believe. And that's why, although someone like John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul can meet together and do many conferences together because of their clarity on who God is and the shared understanding of that, who God is, who Jesus is, what the gospel is.
On many, many levels, they can have unity and make themselves of one voice to the worldwide community. But they, I don't even use the word probably, they couldn't serve in the same local church as elders because of their difference on baptism.
And in that sense, it allows until we're convinced otherwise by Scripture, each of the two to say, this is what we believe Scripture says and have a church whereby they can make that proclamation as elders.
And they both agree that one of them at least is wrong. And if they could be shown from Scripture how they are themselves wrong, both believe of the other party that they would change. And they haven't yet been able to convince each other of what is the truth.
They, one believes one thing and one believes the other. And so it's legitimate that these are elders in the body of Christ. We recognize that. We can have fellowship on every kind of level. But when it comes to eldership, we need to be on the same page to be of one voice, to be able to pastor the couple who's having a baby and has had a baby.
And we ask those kinds of questions. I don't know if that's helpful, but it's really understanding in terms of fellowship. There are deal breakers. If someone denies the Trinity, denies the gospel, there's no basis for fellowship.
Christian fellowship can occur in any setting such as that. But in terms of eldership, we need to be on the same page for the sake of the people.
So the one church that finally sprang up, one evangelical church that finally sprang up in Japan, split?
I think that's what happened in the end is that they realized this happy club couldn't continue without one voice because there's just confusion.
And by the way, that was a little bit of a joke, but the population, the evangelical Christian population in Japan is supposedly like 1 of the population. But Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say.
You know, you just said a mouthful.
And he went down to eight, you know.
But you just said a mouthful that I think, I hope that our listeners caught. I know it's slightly off subject, but you were talking about, obviously, you have to have different types of churches in an area because people need to live by their convictions.
And like you said, John MacArthur and R .C. Sproul couldn't serve on the same church board together. But what I've seen many times is, of course, a lot of times, Baptists go to Presbyterian churches and vice versa.
And what happens is their kids meet and they fall in love and they get married and they've taken the situation right into their own homes. What will you do? Everything's fine until the baby's born.
In fact, we'll pick up on that when we come back from our final break. If anybody would like to join us on the air, now's the time to do it. We do have several people still waiting to have their questions asked and we'll get to you as soon as possible.
But if anybody else would like to get in line, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please, as always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.
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Welcome back, and the voice of Charles Haddon Spurgeon that you just heard was actually the voice of my guest, John Sampson, who is speaking about and has been speaking about for the last 90 minutes and the next 25 minutes to come the importance of church membership and the fallacy of maverick loan and the fallacy of the maverick lone wolf Christian.
If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Before the break, the Reverend Buzz Taylor was speaking about the dilemma that often arises when you have a Reformed Baptist church joining fellowship for many reasons on many occasions with a Presbyterian church and then the young people, the single people get to know each other and socialize and they wind up falling in love and marrying and then the question is where do they become members and what should they do with their babies when they're born?
Pastor John, do you have any advice on that?
Not at all.
Well, I did say it was a bit off subject, so I'll go with that.
Well, don't you think that the don't you think that because of male headship, the convictions of the husband is what should rule in this area?
Well, that's generally the way it does go. Yes.
Yeah, it is. It is. And it's a very difficult one because both are to follow their own conscience. And yet it's a big responsibility being a husband. And that's part of it is learning what the scripture says so that you're sure of what you believe.
And therefore I think in that situation that the wife should follow the husband as long as he's under scripture and he has the responsibility of saying yes. And it's a difficult one though. It's not an easy one.
Well, that only entered my mind because you did mention that about the churches or, you know, they get along fine until the baby's born. But I just wondered maybe I missed this because I did come in late.
But even the definition of the word ecclesia, doesn't that tell us a lot right there that we're called out? We must be called to.
Yeah.
It also involves if you're being called out, that means that there are individuals being called out together.
Yeah. And it has the connotation, the ecclesia is of an official gathered elite group that make decisions in a city. All of that is in that word ecclesia. It's sometimes translated church in the New Testament, sometimes assembly.
But historically, in the empire of Rome, it meant the group that made decisions for the city. There's a governmental part of even the definition.
OK, we have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who says, what is that tea that Pastor Sampson loves so much that he has to special order it from the UK? And is it loose leaf tea or is it in bags? This is a serious question as I am now starting to drink more tea than coffee.
Well, if any moment in time, I'd like to relive the Boston Tea Party as now, because I'd like to throw this listener off the ship. But anyway, if you could, I'd love to bring up the Boston Tea Party when I'm talking to a Brit.
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, if you're going to have the divorce of nations, let it be over something important like tea. I think also it's a biblical question. And when we've got an entire book of this called He Brews.
And I always thought that was about beer on my mistake. OK.
Oh, yeah. Oh, no.
It's the original language of the Greek. It's the English tea.
And Bill, do you have it?
Again, the whole Bible has to be understood through the English prism of understanding. And I hope all of our listeners will one day hear the immortal words of the Lord as he says to them. Well done. Good and faithful.
Oh, you want to hear something? You want to hear something funny? A pastor who is co-hosting with me one day from the South, he heard the Solid Ground Christian Books ad and he started laughing. He goes, that's funny.
That guy has a real fake English accent. I said, no, that guy's from England. But anyway, the question,.
The official tea bag I use is a bag and it's called PG Tips. And I used to have to order it, but there's actually a local store that that has it. And when I see it there, I get every every box in the store normally, because sometimes it's it's out and you have to go a month without it.
And that's not a good thing. It really stretches my sanctification. And if I go too long without any of these PG Tips, I can turn Armenian.
So you're saying P as in Peter, G as in George tips, like like like Q tips, T-I-P-S.
Exactly.
OK.
And if you go online and plug that into YouTube, you can see commercials from the 1970s. The owners of the company dressed monkeys up in suits and did their 32nd commercials by means of the monkeys. And so it was just drilled into me.
If this tea is good enough for monkeys, it's good enough for me.
You know, and and the Brits have called the Yanks uncivilized and you're having tea commercials with chimpanzees. OK.
All right. Well, we well, thanks a lot for wasting our time. Thanks a lot, Ted, in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, Tuscaloosa, Alabama, for wasting our time for about five minutes there. We have Tyler Smith. Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York, who asked, is it true that we see elders taking numbers for members of the church as in when it says that 3000 were added at the preaching of Peter?
I'm not sure what he means by that if he's viewing like envisioning it like a delicatessen where you take a number. I'm not even sure what Tyler means by that. Is it true that we see elders taking numbers for members?
I have no clue on that. Do you?
At a desk writing names down and counting up all the all the names of the people who were added to the church. And I think in some ways there was some way of designating who those people if they were not just nameless faces.
And such is the case when we have another listing in the New Testament to get on the list, as it talks about, of widows who are going to be supported by the local church. Again, there was a list of names and there were certain requirements to get on a list to kind of think that it's only us in the 21st century that have the ability to write things down and make lists is certainly not true according to the New Testament.
To get on the list there meant you qualified as a widow. You had to be over 60 years of age. It was there were certain requirements. And if there was a list there, it doesn't boggle my mind to think there was a list of who the members are.
And that's certainly the case when we put 2 Corinthians 6 with what we've already talked about. And that is the people were able to know what a majority was. There had to be a list of members for that verse to even make sense.
There was formal membership in the local church.
Yeah. Well, now we can see that carding was also scriptural. If they had to be 60, somebody had to card them.
Right. That was the Reverend Buzz Taylor, everybody, not me. But RJ in White Plains, New York, says, can you please give some counsel for those listening who have had horrific, nightmarish experiences as members of churches, causing them to have utter terror and fear and anxiety to ever darken the door of a church again?
I would, my only counsel would attend the church until you feel in any way comfortable that the people who are leading have your best interests in mind and the people of God's interest in mind. Only the Lord can heal those wounds.
But here's what I found in my experience is when we open up to the Lord, he is able to lead and guide us to certainly imperfect people, but people who genuinely love the sheep. There is a difference between what a doctor needs to carry out his practice and what an elder should have.
And that is a desire to come alongside people. When a doctor loses a patient and they get a message to say, take me off, I'm leaving. I don't want to, I don't want you to be my doctor anymore. They can care deeply, but it can be the case that they say, oh, well, there's 30 other people that want to be on the list.
No big deal. I've lost number 483 and number 484 today, but no problem. Secretary, just get the next two on the list and put them on it. But for a pastor, there's weeping, there's deep, deep hurt sometimes when people leave.
And that's because God gives them a shepherd's heart. And one of the advices I had early on in my ministry was so helpful. It says, love people deeply, but hold on to them lightly. Allow them to leave rather than just being full of vengeance and wanting to quarrel and be nasty.
Leave the door open. And you might find, as has happened recently in our church, some people left and, you know, years later they come back because you kept the door open. You were nice. You were Christ-like.
And all you can do in that situation is ask the Lord to heal the wounds. And oftentimes God uses not maybe the same people, but other elders with a loving heart to show the shepherd's love. We can receive it directly from the Lord himself, but oftentimes he puts people in our lives who are the exact opposite of what we've experienced.
And they do care. And there are, in every city, I'm sure, because the Lord is building his church, there are people who genuinely care. And can there be mixed motivations? Yes. Can there be evil inclinations and motivations?
Absolutely. It lurks in all of our hearts, but there's also the genuine and the fact that someone has had their money stolen and had their house broken into and their items removed by robbers doesn't mean that we don't try to regain our hold of legitimate, genuine finance again and have dealings with people go out to work and earn money.
Again, in that realm, we understand that there's bad experiences that happen. And I'm very, very sad that that's happened for the person that's writing in with that question. But beyond the person that you see, trust the Lord behind them.
And the Lord is able to heal wounds. He heals the brokenhearted. And that's the promise of God. And for the Lord Jesus to say to us, even in our broken state, my will for you is to be part of a church.
I don't think he rescinds that and says, well, you've been hurt. You don't need to do that. Actually, I think the exact opposite. He's saying to all of us, you may have been hurt. And part of the healing process is for you to find a biblical church where you're loved, you're nurtured, and you're cared for.
And that would certainly be my prayer, though I might never meet the person myself in this life. My prayer would be, Lord, lead them to a legitimate biblical church, to qualified biblical elders who love this one as precious and valuable in the sight of the Lord.
Yeah, just like I said in the outset of the program, you should not reject Jesus because of Judas, and you should not even reject the other 11 apostles because of Judas, just because there are churches out there that are false churches or even true churches with sinful leaders and members.
In fact, all churches contain people who sin because we're all sinners. But just because there are abusive churches and abusive church leaders does not mean every church is like that. And I think that everyone who is shunning the idea of church membership really knows that in their heart of hearts.
They know that not every church is like the one that they experienced. And, you know, just like you were even saying, just because there are some doctors that are guilty of malpractice doesn't mean that we should never go to a doctor or a hospital again.
And just because that there are some parents who are horrific, evil people who torture and molest their children and perhaps even murder them doesn't mean all parents are like that, doesn't mean we shouldn't ever allow a child to be adopted by parents just because there are horrible, evil parents out there.
But Buzz Taylor, you have something to say.
Well, I'm wondering, it's a sad fact that there are very abusive churches out there. And I'm wondering, though, if this gets back towards what Tyler was talking about with his question, whether there may be church leaders who mistake numbers and members.
In other words, let's just get the biggest multitude we can get in our building and not have the slightest care for each individual person as a member.
Right, you're talking about those that are so focused on numbers.
That's the only thing I can make of Tyler's question.
They can sometimes are involved in even softening the warnings of the Bible or eliminating them and making it palatable for those who are still in love with the world to enter into their membership or in their attendance because they want so desperately the numbers to rise more than anything.
I'm assuming that's what Tyler meant.
Yeah, go ahead.
Well, I was just assuming that's what Tyler meant, but I could be wrong. What's your response though?
Yeah, I was just going to jump in and say one of the things that I've done that I knew in doing it might be offensive is coming alongside someone and saying I'm concerned. I'm concerned that there seems to be this apathy towards getting together when someone is saying, well, I don't need church and yet they're a member of the church.
I remember writing to someone and saying, I'm not saying who's saved and who's not saved, but part of being regenerate and alive towards God is to listen to the words of Jesus and obey him. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.
And it's a concern to me that you are treating the church so lightly. And I know in writing that, even though I'm saying I'm writing this in love, they were offended and this has happened, you know, with numerous people over the years.
And yet you write those kind of things and you come alongside and you say those kind of things, knowing that truth can mean that someone's offended by it. But 10 years, 15 years later, I still stand by what I wrote.
And I know this person has an offense towards me. And I've said, I'm sorry I offended you, but I still believe what I said, that it's concerning to me you claim to be a Christian, but the words of Jesus seem to you.
And that's a concern to my soul. And I just want to encourage you to, whether it's with us or somewhere else, be part of a church where you can contribute your gifting, be nurtured in the faith and where you can be lovingly disciplined.
And that's what we sign up for as members. And all elders are members. And should they go astray, they can be disciplined too. And that's the protection of the people. When it's done right, it's Jesus' system of protection for his flock.
And as someone once said, there is no perfect church. And if there was a perfect church, it would cease to be one once you joined it.
Yeah, very true.
And well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all the contact information that they need. The King's Church, or should I say, King's Church of Peoria, Arizona can be located on the internet at kingschurchaz .com.
And of course, there's no apostrophe in the URL. It's just kingschurchaz .com. And the publisher of both of John Sampson's books, one is titled Twelve Whatabouts? Answering Common Questions. I'm sorry, Answering Common Objections Concerning God's Sovereignty in Election.
And also the one that we mentioned earlier today, The Five Solas Standing Together Alone. Both of those books by John Sampson can be ordered through solid-ground-books .com. Solid-ground-books .com.
And as always, you could order any book mentioned on Iron Trip and Zion Radio at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com. CVBBS .com. Pastor John Sampson, do you have any other contact information that you care to share?
There's a personal blog site that I usually update daily, sometimes a few times a day. I link to effectualgrace .com. E-F-F-E-C-T-U-A-L. You can find me there as well.
Great. Keep in mind, ladies and gentlemen, mark on your calendar for tomorrow that Chris Rosebro of Pirate Christian Radio returns to Iron Trip and Zion Radio. I want to thank everybody for listening today, especially those who wrote in questions.
I want to thank Pastor John Sampson for being my guest and Reverend Buzz Taylor for being my co-host. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.