Provoked: The Importance of Dying To Self - Part 2

Brothers, what we do in life echoes in eternity.

I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian church today. We don't know who God is, and we don't know who we are.

This is where we hold them. This is where we fight.

Officer, you need to repent of your lawless conduct. You don't know the law, and yet you pretend to represent it.

That's not law enforcement, sir. That's being a thug. We will not stop fighting and bothering you all until this monstrous, barbaric practice of legalized abortion ends, and we are teaching our children to do the same.

God's word says that the shed blood of innocent humans cries out for justice, and mark my words, they will have their day in court.

Nobody gets saved by being treated nicely. They get saved by hearing the gospel. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

If we don't open our mouths and commend Christ, we're not loving them, no matter what we're doing with our hands.

What's up, everybody? It is episode something or other. I don't even know. 13 or 14 of Provoked.

I'm here with two of my best pals in the whole universe, Pastor Zachary Conover. Hey, hey. What's your middle name?

Michael. Michael. Yes. I never knew that. Pastor Luke, what's your middle name? Charles.

Charles? Did you know his middle name was Charles? I knew it was something having to do with royalty.

It's rare. That's a powerful name. A lot of Charles on both sides of my family. How about you? Clint.

But it's spelled Clint. It's spelled Clint. So my dad spells his name Clint, but he pronounces it

Clint like Clint Eastwood. But it's C -L -E -N -T. Zachary Clint Morgan. So anyway, we are

Provoked. And what are we doing with this show? Well, we want to glorify God. What are we doing?

Hopefully, we want to be helpful for the church. If this doesn't glorify God, then it's going to do nothing.

But if you feel like it's helpful for you, and if you feel like it is glorifying to God, uplifting to the church, then we'd ask you to share it.

Send it across to your social media thingies, and we would be so thankful. So what do we want to do to ultimately glorify

God? Preach the gospel, rescue babies, destroy idols. We picked that word provoked because it's an important word.

Here's a provocative statement for you guys. Tell me if you agree or you don't agree. We need more angry

Christians on our planet. Potentially loaded statement, right?

In what way? I can't answer that yes or no. Yeah, because you need more. Context. Some context or stipulation is placed upon that.

Right, OK, so let's broaden that out a little bit further. So the Bible commands us to be angry. Actually, it's an imperative in Ephesians chapter 6.

Be angry, but do not sin. So when babies are dying, when babies are being murdered, the reaction should be anger over that, just like we're angry about slavery, we're angry about the atrocities of Hitler and all he did.

There's a righteous anger that rises up. So that's where I'm coming at, is we need to have a righteous anger that provokes us to action.

Like Jesus flipping the tables in the temple, cleaning out his temple. That was a righteous, non -sinful anger.

Amen. I'm thinking Romans 12, abhor what is evil, cling to what is good. There's something that is a hallmark of belonging to Jesus Christ, being a follower of Jesus Christ, and having an abhorrence for that which offends

God. Exactly right. And so loving what he loves and hating what he hates. And that, immediately.

Exactly right. Exactly, and that gets in, and we could bunny trail all over the place, but that gets into the heart of really the doctrine of regeneration, is that you know you're a

Christian when you hate the things that God hates and love the things that God hates, or love the things that God loves, because the new regenerate heart that God gifts you is going to do that.

So it's working the spirit. You got to ask the person, are you angry over the things that God hates?

Or do you support them? Do you love the things that God loves? And if there isn't really the fruits of true regeneration, people really have to examine theirself to see if they're in the faith, just like Paul said in 2

Corinthians 13 5. Yeah, well, hey, go to Apologia Studios right now and become an

All Access member, because when you do that, you support the ongoing work that goes on here at Apologia Studios.

And Luke knows we're up to our nose in stuff. Church has doubled since COVID -19.

We're drowning. I can't touch the bottom right now. I'm swimming in Ezekiel's vision right about now.

We got so much stuff going on. It's a good busy. It's a busy busy. I mean, but we got a lot going on.

So what does that mean for you? That means when you go to Apologia Studios, you become an All Access member. You continue on in your education.

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So yeah, go there, do that, do it now. Literally pause, hit pause, go sign up, and then come back and finish listening.

Yeah, perfect. So I wanted to do, my wife said we need to add some variety to the show.

So maybe you guys can help me out in the future. Wives just give such good advice. Did your wife actually listen to your show? I don't know.

I think so, no, she does. That's good. You have a good wife. Because she says, hey, act happier. Mine doesn't listen to my show.

Smile more. Yeah, smile more. No, I love my wife so much. But okay, so I'm gonna do a new,

I started a new segment, and it's a get to know you segment for my guests that come on.

Also, I don't want to forget about my sister. Be praying for her. She's on maternity leave. She's my regular wonderful little co -host.

So I love you so much, Desi. She'll be back in a couple of weeks. Little baby Noxie. We're gonna have Dennis Sarfate on.

Nice. And it's gonna be straight Japanese fire. Oh, fire. Japanese fire. Is he gonna throw a fireball at you?

Probably. It's gonna be in the form of exposing all of the athletes and athletic departments that are supporting the

Black Lives Matter movement. Talking a lot about that. It's gonna be fun. Oh, I like that. And he's gonna throw a baseball at your head. It's gonna be provocative.

At your face. All right, get to know you segment for you guys. Question number one. Oh, okay.

Where were you born? Sweating. I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Grand Rapids, Michigan. Yep. Zachary? Mesa, Arizona. More specifically,

Desert Samaritan Hospital. Which isn't even a name anymore. Yeah. Back in the day, that was the only hospital around.

Now there's a lot of hospitals in the East Valley, but back then there wasn't much to come into the world to.

It wasn't. He's a native AJ right here. I was born in National City, California, just a suburb outside of San Diego.

And my grandpa's brother, that'd be my great uncle, he was the mayor there for 40 years.

Really? Yeah, fun little fact. That's a fun fact. Was he a Morgan as well? Yeah, his name was

Carl Morgan. You can look up stuff about him. Okay, let's move on. What's your favorite food? You could eat it all day and all night.

You don't get sick of it. This is easy. Can I have more than one? Yeah, okay.

Well, probably pizza. I could eat pizza every day and be fine. But what's your favorite pizza though?

What kind of pizza? I mean, it's gonna be Gino's East, Deep Dish, Sausage Patty.

Oh yeah. We're talking Chi -Town, right? Chi -Town, yeah. That's by far my favorite. But I like all kinds of pizzas.

There's not very many I don't like. Like with Oreos on it? If there's Oreos on it, I'd probably eat it. But my kryptonite is definitely donuts.

Yeah. Like if there's, like if I was to walk into any location whatsoever at any given time and there's a box of fresh donuts,

I'm gonna eat one. And more than once, probably. I'm the one that's like hovering.

I'm like, hey, if y 'all, did you get, you got one? Okay, cool, I'm gonna get it. Like, that's me. Well, it shows.

It's nice, because once you get over 40, you're not there yet. You're not quite. Almost. Yeah, your body's like, no can do anymore about that type of food, so.

Yeah. Eat it while you can, because after 30, you blow up like a big fat blowfish. I've just cleared that home, so I'm gonna get blown up.

Were you surprised by my answer? You seemed shocked. No, well, pizza, I knew you liked it.

Didn't know that much. I 100 % thought you'd say donuts. Oh, yeah, that's definitely. Yeah, I was tracking with that completely.

Okay, favorite food? Me, Mexican food, specifically. Chipotle. Chipotle is just so hard to beat.

You shouldn't promote that place. Chipotle. It's just so hard to beat. It's just delicious. But any type of like Southwest Mexican food, like Arizona, Southern California, New Mexico, all in that area, it's just so good.

We gotta do a leadership retreat in San Diego. Yes. Because I wanna take you guys, and look at that.

Yeah, just a lot of different places and restaurants. I went to the one place, and you were really disappointed in my opinion on that place.

Specifically. I think I played it up. It's just like when you watch a movie, and somebody plays it up. Oh, expectations. Oh, your expectations are so high.

But I do have a couple more that maybe, I'll say that they're horrible, and maybe they'll be good. Okay, favorite food for me,

I could eat sushi all day long. Spring rolls are good. I eat them almost every single day. Your favorite food is any sort of unknowable meat.

Yeah, just some meat. Surprise? Yeah, like I don't know, it's some sort of meat, and it's fried. Mystery meat.

It's in a sushi or something like, you're like, yep, that's my favorite. Favorite way to relax.

What is that? Favorite way to relax. I don't know what that is. What's your favorite way to relax? Like your work hobby.

Oh. He's like, I don't even know what that word is. No, it's funny, because I know you're the same way.

My wife's like, the other day, I was like, because I'm always doing stuff around the house, and to me, that's relaxing sometimes, like just fixing the house and doing things.

Like I'm redoing my bathrooms right now, and the other day, I was supposed to be getting ready to do something, and my wife came in, and she's like, why aren't you ready yet?

And I'm messing with the mirror, and she's like, just stop working. I was like, I can't,

I can't do it. There is something about those tasks, though, that are therapeutic, especially for men,

I think. I was touching up paint last night, and my daughter came in, and she was like, is this fun? And I was like, yeah, it's kind of relaxing.

Like, I don't mind painting. Oh, painting's the best. You don't even have to think about it. Anyways. It's rhythmic, it's consistent.

I like to watch movies. Movies. Sweet. I like, yeah, we'll go with that.

Hanging out with your sweeties? Yeah. In the pools? Yeah. I only have one, but just for clarity.

What do you like to do? One sweetie? Oh, I mean, family time is awesome. One pool, I mean. I have two sweeties, daughters.

One pool, just to be clear. Yeah, as Pastor Luke said, yeah. Family time is great.

Movies, I'm, of course, a big fan of that. It's funny, this is one of those questions where it's like, you can answer what you'd like it to be, or what it actually is.

It's like, I would love it to be like, oh, hiking. I enjoy going out and doing activity, or running, or something physical, and it's just like, no,

I would rather actually read a book. Honestly, I'd rather read or study something.

That's my problem, I can never turn my mind off. I would love to read more fiction, just something completely unrelated to theology or something like that, just to get your mind in that mode of just enjoying it.

Cool, all right. It's not common. Couple more. What about you? I figure a way to relax.

Let's get that answer. My answer's yours. I mean, it's hard for me to relax, because when I'm relaxed, I'm like, well, I need to be reading.

I need to be reading this and that, and preparing for this and that, but just spending time with my girls, and my boys, my kids, my wife.

I love camping. Anything out, I mean, I love it when you go camping out in the sticks, because you have to.

It kind of forces you. I really relax when I can separate myself from this little fray. And that quietness, too.

And the smells, and the goodies. Who is your favorite preacher? Preacher.

I'm gonna ask you who your favorite teacher is, but who's your favorite preacher? Okay, is that living or dead? Could be dead or living. I mean, this is easy.

Spurge. Yeah, Spurge. He's my all -time favorite. Preacher. Yeah. Okay, because I'm gonna ask you who your favorite teacher is.

Because I feel like that's the same, though. Yeah. Could be. He was a pretty good preacher teacher. Okay, so Spurgeon, like, dead.

Spurgeon. Zach knows that. You both know that. For sure. But, like, living? Dead and alive.

Let's just say dead and alive. I would say, like, living, some of my favorites are Joe Boot, my boy,

Das Boot. I love me some Toby Sumter. Little good, like, good old

Sumter Fire. And I love me some Doug Wills. Doug Wills' son.

You know, we got some pretty good ones here, too. The Derbs and the - Mm, mm -hmm. And the old

Blanco. Yeah. Doc Blanco. Some of the best on the earth. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyways.

On that note, yeah, I've always loved listening to Jeff. That's kind of where I got my flow from, if you will.

Can I just have that be my other answer for your other question, too? That's fine. Because they're kind of the same. Yeah. Because, well, we'll just mix it up.

Okay. Who's your favorite preacher teacher? Jeff? Well, you can - Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

No, definitely, like, teacher -wise, Joe. I mean, yeah, I can't think of anyone that I enjoy listening to more than Joe.

Old school, I mean, Spurgeon, how do you compare? But Whitefields, George Whitefields, I mean, reading his biography, reading some of his sermons, just absolutely incredible stuff.

I mean, obviously, his focus was on the new birth and regeneration and, you know,

Reformed theology and all of that. It just melts through, like, the sermons. It just cuts you like crazy, so.

You know, what these guys did in their lifetime, like you're talking about, a couple days ago, Whitefield and Spurgeon, what he was writing at the age of 21, it's just amazing.

It's just otherworldly. Martin Lloyd -Jones is another one. You read his stuff, and it's like, my goodness.

It's powerful. Yeah. Preacher, Jeff, I mean, Jeff's a hybrid because he's such a good teacher, too.

But as a preacher, somebody who just brings the fire, I just don't anybody, on the planet,

I think Jeff may be, in my book, the best preacher. Teacher, John MacArthur's always been.

He's not so much of a preacher, but he's an incredible teacher. His exposition, though, is unbelievable. Votie Bauckham, Paul Washer.

I mean, these are just off the top of my head. Votie would be an incredible, he's an incredible teacher. I love listening to Piper.

Who's the most fire preacher you know that you enjoy? It'd be Washer. I mean, fire, bringing down the brimstones.

How many moments could be, like, action? Yeah, I should say that. Fire, fire. I mean, I've been spit on by Rusty Thomas more than one occasion, so.

I would have to say with Rusty Thomas, for me. Because he was preaching, not because he was spitting on me. Rusty Thomas has been the most impactful, one of the most influential for me when

God was transitioning me to a certain segment of my life, or when it came to being enlightened or awoke to the abortion issue, it was all

Rusty Thomas. Yeah, for sure. You can't be sleeping on him because he will literally scare the daylights out of you.

He has such great, I think what makes him effective is he goes from loud to quiet, and it just draws you in, and then boom, explosion.

We might get into this a little bit when we're talking about our main segment, but I think why Rusty's been so effective is because of his holiness, his godliness, his integrity.

I mean, he's just a biblical man, and I think that lends to. Steadfastness. You know, your preaching capability and the power in your preaching capability, too.

Just God, just straight up godliness. There's unction there, for sure. Just to move through a couple more, what has been the most impacting book other than the

Bible that you read? Mission of God. Mission of God. That's way too hard. It's way too hard. Not for me. Mission of God is really, really formative, but I've read so many books this year alone that were so formative.

John O. and the Mortification of Sin was probably, that book will just kick your teeth down your throat.

It was just so powerful. And in terms of practical application to your life and killing sin and walking in holiness, my goodness.

But even something like When I Don't Desire God by Piper, that was huge this year for me, just dealing with that valley experience of, you know.

Is this a confession? If you wanna hear more about it, we can talk offline. Got a little ugly, but no, yeah.

Bettner, Reformed Doctor of Predestination, Pink Sovereignty of God. Yeah, huge for me.

Those are probably, and then Bridges, Jerry Bridges, Respectful Sins.

Those are probably the, oh, and Driscoll, if I'm allowed to say that, Who Do You Think You Are has been a big one for me, too.

His doctrine book was pretty slamming, too. When He Once Believed on It. Yeah, poor guy, gotta pray for him.

For me, I think as an early minister of 2021, would have been

Attributes of God, and it would be Pink Sovereignty of God. I remember just reading that late at night, just having it change me.

Later on, gosh, it just completely just gave me the Holiness of God, did I already say that?

The Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges. So anything by Jerry Bridges. Bonson, massively.

Always ready for suppositional apologetics. Gentry and Bonson, yeah. Okay, what kind of legacy do you wanna leave in your life?

Sorry, one more thing on the books. Paradise Restored, David Chilton. That was huge. Yeah, just a legacy of faithfulness, whatever that looks like.

I always think of my grandparents who, I know I've talked about them before on this show, they've been just a shining example for me of two amazing

Christians who lived their entire life completely faithful to God, to their dying breaths.

And so I want to pass on that legacy to my kids and grandkids and great -grandkids.

Yeah. Can't get any better than that. I mean, right in that same vein, just finishing as well as you start,

I guess. I mean, just finishing well. I've fought the good fight, I've finished the race,

I've kept the faith. I think that's what every Christian man, woman, especially minister aspires to is just finishing well and having people, hopefully when they think about you and bring you up in conversation after you've passed is, that man knew

God, he knew Christ, and his whole life was to make him known. And that's what

I wanna be remembered for is just that conduit. Like this is my Lord and this is who he is and this is the power that he has to transform the world.

And when I think about this man, that's what I remember is that he knew God, he was close to God, he walked with God and God worked through him as an instrument.

Praise God. And I think there's probably tangible things I'd like to be a part of, but I don't care if my name's attached to them, you know what

I mean? Like ending abortion, where I think we all wanna see that in our lifetime, but none of us care if our name is attached to that, but that's something.

It's the fight of the current time. I know you would love to see Kawhi won to Christ once again.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's again, something we're all a part of that we're fighting for, but I don't care if my name's attached to it or not.

But that's just, so it's like weird, it's like, that'd be your legacy, but like not necessarily by name.

Yeah, to see the coastlands fall down and return to worship the triune God. I mean, what more could you ask for?

Can you imagine the day when abortion ends? I mean, what are we gonna do? Cry for seven days or eight days?

Get a really expensive bottle of whiskey. When it's done. Or even the first state that decides to defy.

Yeah. Hopefully it's our state. Yeah, praise God. We gotta party for like a month straight, just 40 days of party.

I mean. 40 days. Just the concept of like where I'm gonna be when I find that news out and what's gonna happen.

I just, it just seems so surreal, an impossibility. But it is, but with God, all things are possible.

What about you? What's your answer? Pretty much the same thing. I mean, I just wanna be a servant.

Zach, talking about finishing as good as you started. You see a lot of guys don't do that, you know.

Benny Hinn started out well. I mean, he started out believing. Did he really? Essential doctrines, yeah, he did.

And he just let, false doctrine, I think he let a lot of applause, a lot of spotlight on him, popularity corrupt him.

I think that's what can happen to us, is we can allow things like that to knock us off course.

Yeah. I think Paul speaks to it, saying what God began in the spirit, don't you dare try to perfect or bring to a conclusion in the flesh.

Exactly. So that's it, just being a servant, being faithful, being, not have anything really attached to my name.

I want my kids to see a genuine Christian man in me. And I know it's something that we are always aspiring to be and working to be, and it's nothing that we're ever gonna perfectly accomplish.

But I want my kids, when I die, to say he was a Christian man, all the way up to his death. He believed the Bible, he taught the

Bible. He loved my mom, he stayed faithful. He loved us, he didn't love the ministry more than us.

Yeah. That's huge in and of itself, just generational faithfulness. If your grandkids and great -grandchildren profess and bow the knee to Jesus, I mean, that's it.

Yeah, I mean, I can speak to that even, so my kids would be, so my great -grandparents were missionaries to Africa, so that would be like fifth generation that I can trace back.

And probably further than that, because they came from Germany and stuff before that, so I don't really know a lot about my ancestors before that, but that's five generations, which is amazing, yeah.

Yeah, it's huge. It's awesome. It's testimony. That's so awesome. Okay, just one more before we get into it.

What's the most embarrassing, crazy thing that's happened to you during ministry?

Something that's happened to you during ministry. I can start if you want me to. I don't think I have anything embarrassing yet.

I'm a young minister, but. I think I told my, when the chair. Something crazy, just something. When the chair broke on me on a mission trip, that was by far the most embarrassing.

Did you hear that? I didn't hear that, but we'll have to get caught up on it. I can tell you the quick version. I was on a mission trip, and I talked about when

I was on with you and Desi in Nicaragua, and it's super humid and hot there, and the floors were super gloss tile, and we had those plastic -molded yard chairs to sit in, and so during, but I will tell you,

I could just feel the legs just kind of like, like one, like just eek out, and I was like, this is not good, and then sure enough, at one point, it just, and like,

I mean, this chair exploded. There's a green plaster. It exploded. There were shards of plastic chair just like shot across the room right in the middle of Bible study, and I just ate it, and it was embarrassing.

I ended up sitting in two chairs the rest of the week. Put two together. Still didn't trust them. I still to this day don't trust those chairs.

Yeah. Anyways, that's probably mine. What do you got? That's a good one. I can't even think of anything. It's embarrassing.

Nothing yet? Nothing comes to my head. You'll have plenty. Well, I've got a bunch when I was a young pastor here in Phoenix, because we focused on the homeless.

We actually built a men's ministry called Men Builders where we'd take the homeless, and God was doing some amazing stuff during that time.

Like guys were like totally renouncing homosexuality. I remember a big pile of like satanic paraphernalia.

Like God was saving these guys. But we were young, and we didn't have the right type of leadership. I remember one time, there were so many homeless people.

80 to 90 % of homeless people on the street have mental issues, mental instabilities and stuff like that.

So we were having a service, and the pastor was preaching. He was crying, and this woman just started going, cry, baby.

Did I tell you this? Like full volume in a pretty packed church.

And then every like 30 seconds, could you cry, baby? And so when he would get emotional, and then he was looking at her going like, no, no, like stop.

She wasn't calling him a cry baby. She was telling him. Cry baby. Just encouraging. Cry baby.

He just rolled out, and everybody was like, oh my gosh. And so finally I look at him, he looks at me, because I'm like the associate pastor, and I'm like trying to pull her out.

Oh, can we come out? And I get her out into the foyer, and I say, hey, we just can't do that. We can't disrupt what God's doing.

And so I stand at the door, and she gets like in a linebacker stance, right?

And she's like, I'm coming through that door right now. And I'm like, no, you're not. I'm not letting you.

And she did the whole like bowl thing, with the bowl, you know. Scrapes the ground. Yeah, scrapes the ground.

She comes at me, and she just buries her chest right into my shoulder.

I just stood there like a wall. Yeah, she wasn't hurt. She was homeless?

She was homeless, yeah. So it was pretty crazy. Somebody trying to bulldoze their way through into a church service.

Anybody else see it? Yeah, I don't know if, yeah, everybody saw it. I mean, I think there was deacons and stuff.

That's really funny. I will say one of the first Kauai trips that we made, where we went to the south side, or more towards the west side, where a lot of the local people hang out, and we went to the park there.

Yes, this. Yeah, this is pretty good. I forgot about this. Yeah, I mean, I forgot about it, which is saying something, because I didn't think

I'd ever let you forget it. Yeah, and you know, Jeff was interviewing all these people on the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, and just getting really good content, and we were just starting to get to know these people.

I'm pretty sure you were there. Go ahead. Yeah, we started to have them welcoming us into their lunch area.

This was the trip before mine. Yeah, it was just really positive, and then I ended up not seeing on the picnic tables in very big letters that said, don't sit on the table, and I was, sure enough, posted up there.

Like sitting right on top of the table. Right on top of the letters, yeah, and Jeff was talking with someone, and the guy was answering a question.

He said, for example, this guy right here, sitting on the table with his butt, right on the picnic table, that someone would come along and try to fight him for something like that.

It was like a highly offensive. And I realized everyone was trying to get my attention. It was like, but without talking, everyone was just like, get down, get down.

Like that, I'm just like, hey, the breeze is so nice here on the beach, and I just finally realized,

I was like, oh no. I forgot about that. That was really offensive. That happened to me, too. That's highly offensive. I can't remember which beach it was.

In Kauai? Yeah, in Kauai. It's a beach we always go to when we're there. Kalea?

Yeah, Kalea, and I was sitting on a grass mound, and it wasn't even next to some type of burial monument, but yeah, the guy almost challenged me to a fight sitting there.

Oh, it was like a burial thing? Yeah, I was just sitting on one side of it on the grass, and he's like, hey, my buddy died right there.

Oh, was it the surfer thing? He was acting like he was gonna fight me until I stood up, and I was about 12 inches taller, and then he just walked away.

That's hilarious. Yeah, because in Kauai, in Hawaiian culture, you don't put your rear end where the food goes.

Right, right. There's another way of expressing that, but yeah, that was the PC version. Yeah, so everybody should know when we go there, we do our best, of course, to honor the culture as far as we can.

We wouldn't do any of those things. As far as is appropriate, and not at the expense of the truth. Of course. Okay, so first segment we did last week, which

I think was phenomenally awesome, was encouraging young pastors and missionaries. We're kind of zeroing in on pastors and young guys who are aspiring to the eldership, aspiring to plant their own churches, go out on the mission field.

We gotta be talking to our nation's pastors, because I think somebody said this, the state of the nation is a reflection of the state of the pulpit.

So goes the pulpit, so goes the church, so goes the nation. So we've got to lovingly critique, but we have to critique it, and challenge our pastors simply to be faithful pastors, biblical pastors, nothing more.

Spurgeon called pastors the watchdogs of not just their local body, but even their community, like you were saying, their culture, the nation.

So the nation is what it is, because pastors have failed to be watchdogs for the culture.

So it starts in the pulpit, but like you said, it grows out. You should be affecting even your local community, and then it should grow from there.

Yeah, that's what Jesus said, talking about in Acts chapter one, being the witness, starting in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, being faithful in your local area.

And you're right, it's not only preaching, but it's preaching to train up the people of God for the works of the ministry.

Ephesians chapter four, it's one of the predominant purposes of a pastor, and to get out there and do it.

And I think because the pulpits are silent, they're not training and teaching and inspiring their folks to get out there.

Then we see a culture, which is the result of that. So what do we gotta do?

We gotta get our pastors and missionaries properly trained and properly prepared, because it's gonna be more of the same.

It's just gonna be a cyclical thing that's continued to happen. So the first episode, we talked a lot about the importance of pastors and missionaries, of course, the inadequate preparation of young pastors and missionaries, what success looks like biblically, talked a lot about faithfulness.

What does it mean to be a faithful pastor? We broke that down. Are we supposed to be culturally relevant? One word, no, we're not supposed to do that.

And a bunch of other stuff. So let's just kind of continue our conversation. Again, this is all hopefully helpful for younger men and helping them start out the best so that they could be the most effective right off the bat.

So here's a question for you guys. What are some of the most pressing things that a young aspiring pastor needs to hear?

The most what? Pressing things, the most important things. Maybe he's not hearing it.

Maybe it's something that people feel like these guys need to hear down the road.

Do you wanna? Yeah, mine's pretty short. So it's, being a pastor is not a nine to five job.

We always say it's not a job, it's a lifestyle. And it really is.

If you're doing it right, it is. Because you're living it. You don't get to shut it off. You don't get to turn it on at nine in the morning and turn it off at 5 p .m.

Yeah. It's ongoing. So that's my short answer. And that's the call of any Christian, but especially like a minister.

The stakes are higher, obviously, because the responsibility is higher in that regard too.

But one thing I always remember is in leading up to be raised up and ordained as a pastor was the constant questioning from you guys.

Are you sure? Are you sure you wanna do this? And just the constant,

I think what was so effective was the desire to talk me out of it, or in a way to at least impress upon me the gravity of what this role requires, how much suffering will be involved, how much struggle will be involved.

And that's still something that's raised. Like I told you, I told you this would be hard. So a year into it, do you still want to?

Yeah, sure. But I mean, that's just, of course, like make sure that you're called.

Be sure of your calling. Make sure that you're called. And there's two aspects of that. There's the internal call that an aspiring minister will feel, whether it be to preach or to shepherd other people.

So loving people in some capacity is really important. Feeling a relationship to them as you would a shepherd to the sheep.

And that, I mean, you talked about the recovery of the pulpit, but how about something that's a microcosm of that, the recovery of fatherhood in this nation?

If there's no healthy fathers, then there's no healthy pastors. And so it starts smaller than that because that first group that you're ministering to and trying to be faithful with is your family.

Family worship, church is there, that home worship being established first. And so that calling internally needs to be there, but then like we talked about the external calling, the confirmation of men in authority, other elders, other pastors to watch your life, get to know you, confirm your giftings and confirm if you really are called or not in the wisdom that God has given them as those ordained means to make sure that that calling is assured.

Yeah, you're answering my question there. Actually, it's like everything I'd say, you're saying the next thing, which is awesome.

But a lot of guys think, well, it's just a feeling. It's something that I feel like I want to do.

What would you say to the young guys that are saying, you know what, I feel like I'm called and I'm just gonna go run out there, grab my wife and kids and I'm gonna build a church, independent church.

What would you say to that guy? Yeah, I would just say you're potentially gonna hurt a lot of people, including your own family, really badly, if you don't take time beforehand and just try to discern the will of the

Lord in this. And obviously, there comes a place for faith. I don't think you can ever have 100%, a certain amount of like, yes,

I'm absolutely supposed to do this. But you should have a reasonable belief based on the means that God has put in your life to say, yes, this is what he would have me to do.

And then I'm going to step forward now into that and trust him and have faith that this is where he wants me, based on what he's provided, based on my own desires.

But my own desires are never first. That's never primary. It's what's

God's will? What's he providing for? What has he provided for? And then, what do

I want? And as long as those things are harmoniously lining up, then you step forward in faith and trust

God. Yeah, I think a lot of the guys in the example you used, because we get that message, those questions a lot, it's guys are just being impatient.

There's something they don't like about the church they're at. And so, or there's not a solid church within a comfortable driving distance.

And it's like, well, I'm just gonna go start my own church. And it's like, yeah, that's not how that works. I would say it's crucial.

The external call is crucial, because you may feel like you can do it.

You may feel like you have the ability to do it. And you might be right. And you might be right, but what are your pastors telling you?

Do they see that in you? Because if they don't, then that's a big fat no.

In most cases, there might be situations where the pastors are dingleberries or something.

But like - Not yet, or not right now. But you should always have, like Zach said, both of those callings.

And if you don't, then it's a no. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, just, I mean, with the question of just up and going and planning your family out there,

I mean, you need to have men in your life that can ask you really hard questions. Like, are you prepared for what you're gonna bring your family into?

Is your wife cognizant of the sacrifice that's going to be made and the impact that it's going to have on your children?

Are you cognizant of that? Is she on board with that? It needs to be, everybody needs to be brought into that and say, wow, if this is what

God will have you do, there's nothing else that you could possibly ever desire otherwise. And it's gonna be glorious and it's gonna have blessing and joy and all of the glory of God displayed by him in your life,

Lord willing, but it's also gonna be very hard and it's also gonna require a lot of travail and sacrifice and suffering if you intend to be faithful.

Right, if you wanna be faithful, if you wanna pay the price of faithful ministry, then this is what you should expect.

And I don't think that there should be any mincing of what to expect. It should be very much real.

Real conversations need to happen about what you're preparing to do. Because you will need your wife.

You will need her for a lot. And so you need to make sure that there is abject unity moving forward into the field.

That's good. Yeah, without the wife on board, it's a big fat no. And she might not be as enthusiastic about it as you, because she's designed to follow your lead, but she has to be on board or it's just not gonna work.

I was just gonna say, I can't emphasize enough how important it is for men to be raised up within the local church.

And I think, honestly, a big failure of the church in our culture is this kind of like business model.

We're just putting out resumes and those guys end up just jumping around a lot.

Churches fail because of it. And so we know of groups that got mad at the local churches and went and started their own churches.

And it was just a matter of time when they completely imploded on one another. And we know of churches that were planted.

Say there was a guy that planted a church from a different state, but wasn't really watched and raised up from that planting church, descending church.

And then that situation failed and imploded because even though you may think you know a guy, if you're not actually watching them and raising them up, you don't really know them.

You know what I mean? And so I think it's so important. We were able to do that with Zach.

We're doing that with Wade right now. And so I was just talking to Wade last night and I was just saying how thankful I am that he's able to get some special time and attention where he can really learn how these things go and we can trust him.

Like we were able to trust Zach. From our perspective, I don't trust someone with my life.

I'm not sending them to plant a church. It's that simple. If the plan is to multiply and reproduce what's here, you have to ask the question necessarily, what are you going to reproduce?

Are you gonna reproduce that CEO business model? Like you're gonna reproduce the wrong thing. You wanna reproduce a biblical model of church planting and disciple making.

And so, yeah, I mean, that's huge. And one more note about that, seminary is awesome, but having the ability to shadow men who are hands -on and doing the work of ministry and pastoral shepherding and counseling, absolutely invaluable for you to understand how church works.

And I don't just mean that in the sense of Sunday service. I mean like the hard conversations during the week, the counseling, the late night ministry.

If you shadow that, and if you watch a man in action on the field of battle and you are there to listen and you're there to watch and you see how they handle conflict, you see how they don't get worked up when the enemies are railing against them, you see their character and their holiness modeled in front of you, that's what young men need.

That's what I needed. I need to see what faithful ministry looks like practically that I can stand next to and learn.

Like it's just as much caught as it is taught. Like I can't really read a book about that.

Like I can read a book about heroes of the faith in the past that were faithful and did that. But if there's a faithful man in front of me and I see his life,

I see how he treats his family, I see how he ministers faithfully, I see how he does really, really hard things and does really confrontational things too, not just evangelistically, but within the church in the body of Christ, if I can watch that, that is much better preparation.

There's no substitute for that. That's the church, that's the model. And that's why you gotta be within the local church.

Right, second Thessalonians Paul says, we didn't only share the truth with you, but our lives.

Which like Pastor Luke was saying, it takes, it's a slower process. Takes time. Because again, the consequences, the ramifications of this work here is astronomical.

We have to trust people, not only with their lives, but handling the word of God. If they go out there and they're not capable even of doing that, then they're heaping up on themselves with even a greater, stricter judgment.

That's just the individual consequences of what's going on. How many people are you responsible for? Exactly, how many people are you influencing?

Are you caring for the sheep the way that they need to be cared for? Is it all about you? So yeah, that's why a slower is better, of course.

And that's what Mark Arthur says with exposition. But I think slower is always better too. When we were raising up men, because men think,

God needs me. He didn't have me. And I think especially, and I'm not gonna get too far off on this, in the abolitionist movement, we see a lot of the church not involved.

And people can say, you know what? They rail against the church. They think they can do it better. Kind of like an Absalom spirit.

David's son Absalom would sit at the gates and tell the guys, I can do better than my dad here. Let's revolt.

And so they kind of have that attitude of, I just, I can do it better. It needs to be done this way.

And they end up going and imploding and taking a lot of people down with them. I mean, going back to fatherhood as a theme, like what's an elder?

What's a pastor? He's a father in the faith, right? So you have, that's what we should aspire to be.

And obviously there's things that come into contact with that when you're a younger elder and God may put under your care older people, like their age is older than you, but still, that's what it is.

I mean, there's fathers in the home, there's fathers in politics, in the city, there's city fathers, and then there's church fathers.

There's men who have modeled fatherhood of the flock, of the sheep, that we should have modeled out before us.

It's essential. It's really essential. Oh man, guys, we could talk for hours. Some of the most pressing needs before I move on to the next question is don't be a pastor if you don't like people.

Like my pastor told me, he said, you don't like the smell of sheep, don't be a shepherd. And that's, I think that's more common for men like me who might tend to fall on the more introverted category, right, like you like to retreat and be alone and be away from people, you're good at preaching, but having the

Holy Spirit pull you out of that, and it all comes down to loving neighbor, right? Not loving yourself more than you love others and God.

That's the bottom line in all of it, is you came to die, you came to lay your life down, you didn't come for yourself and for your own glory, you came for the glory of the king and his people.

And so that's who you've been called to serve. And so it's not about you. It's awesome. Yeah, and I was gonna say too, like, sheep don't smell good.

That's exactly right. And when you hug them, they're itchy. Right, they're repulsive. So like, you can go on and on with that analogy.

I think it's perfect, but yeah. So be prepared for that. Be prepared to smell a lot of poo -poo. And, you know, be rubbed the wrong way and, you know, be bitten.

Sheep bite too, the hands that's feeding them. That's good. That's caring for them. You gotta continue writing your book.

One day. It's all about that. If I can get my eyeballs above the water, maybe. One more thing. You gotta work hard as a pastor.

You have to rest under the yoke of the manifold responsibilities you have.

And of course, it's different from a one -year church or five -year church, a 10, 20 -year church, but you have to be tough.

And to say it as simply as I can put it, you have to be strong. You see that all throughout the scriptures.

I'm teaching our biblical manhood training about the strength of Christ, about a necessary component of manhood.

Who better to model manhood than Jesus? Than Jesus, right? Of course. Yeah, but you gotta be strong. You gotta be tough. You gotta just say, okay, this is what

I gotta do, and you've called me to do it, and I'm gonna enjoy the labor of this and go at it with everything you can.

Because if we're not, especially as young guys starting planning in church, young guys on the mission field,

I mean, you're gonna be doing a ton. I mean, we have the awesome grace of God that even in our eldership, we have different giftings, different strengths, different weaknesses, and we mold and we harmonize.

But when you're starting out, you don't got that. It takes time. And so you're setting up chairs. You're leading worship.

You're working. You're providing for your families. You're helping the chief that you do have deal with their issues.

It just takes a tremendous amount of work, but all of that is formative, and you can have joy in the midst of all of that.

Yeah, because it's not based on the circumstance, right? Sorry, I was gonna say you can't be soft.

Can't be malicoy. Malicoy, can't be a pansy. And I know you're gonna make a point here, but I think one thing,

I put in my book if I ever finish it, is pastors essentially are pack mules.

They just work, they get dirty. But what does a pack mule do? It carries everyone's burdens.

Responsibility, yeah. Right, and so as a pastor, you have to carry everyone's burdens, and you can't be weak, because they're looking to you.

So even if you're feeling weak, buckle up, buttercup, you can't be weak, because the moment you're weak, strike the shepherd's guide or the sheep, they're looking to you to lead.

Yeah, and one cool thing added onto that is people look at, remember when John laid his head on the breast of Jesus, because he loved him?

I mean, that's an awesome moment of intimacy, but also, what do you see in Jesus? An incredible, stable, powerful figure.

With all the pain and all the hardship that they were going with all through their training, you see John in that moment being able to rest on him, right?

And it's just the stability within that man, within that shepherd, to take on the weight of somebody else.

Like you said, it's taking the burdens on, taking the weights of the people that God's put us in charge of.

There's a reason he's the solid rock, right? It says in scripture that on his mission to the cross, he set his face like flint toward Jerusalem.

That's a rock. That's firmness, resolution, that's single -minded pursuit of the objective, which is what?

The Father's glory. And so, that's essentially what should drive us all.

But, I mean, yeah, there's so much that could be said. Jesus wasn't a hand model, right? Like he had calloused hands.

Can I read one verse here? Look at Paul's description while you're looking up that verse. Paul's description, right?

An athlete, a farmer, and a soldier. There's no softness in any of those descriptions of the man of God, right?

Right. 1 Corinthians 16, 13, be watchful, right? Watchful over yourself, your sin, your family, others in your care.

Stand firm in the faith. Act like men. Be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.

Some of the best counsel that I've ever gotten was actually yesterday, and it was that.

It was like, here's what I'm going through. Here's all the problems that I'm facing. I don't know if I can do this. Like, I just don't know.

And it's like the best counsel ever, I think, for young men is pick yourself up, be strong, and keep going.

Move forward. And be a man. Absolutely. Like, that's the best counsel that a young man could hear that is struggling with frustration and discouragement because I think the first instinct is to be like, okay, come here.

Like, let's, you know, let me get next to you and we'll huddle up together and be sad. It's like, be a man. Pick yourself up and keep going and do it joyfully in God because think about what awaits you in eternity.

Like, you're gonna look back 1 ,000 years from now, 10 ,000 years from now, and what would you tell yourself in that moment?

You would tell yourself, wipe your face, wash it off, get up, and keep going. March forward, carry the cross, and plant that flag.

Like, that's what you would do. I feel like we've had, like, in our nation, there's been like waves of men, you know what

I mean? Like, obviously the men that founded our nation was that sort of man. Like, they had to go through hell and back to freely worship.

We couldn't imagine. Yeah, you know, and then, like, you know, you see, like, the men who fought in the Civil War, like, and then you see, like, you know, men that survived the

Great Depression and then went to World War II, you know? And, like, you look at those men and you look at, like, the snowflake millennials we have right now, and it's, like, not even the same universe, you know?

So it's, like, we need that next wave of men, and it has to come from the church. And that's why you also need to read about the dead guys, specifically missionaries, because the amount that they suffered and what they sacrificed is, honestly, it makes your experience as real as it is.

It's not that it's not real. It's not that it doesn't hurt. It just, by contrast, you wonder to yourself, why am

I complaining again, you know, in a sense? Missionary bios is so essential. It just, it gets you right in the right perspective.

It lets you look at your problems that you feel like are, you know, massive mountains that are just impassable.

It puts everything in perspective. Whatever it is, discouragement, anxiousness, you know, whatever you're going through, just buy perspective, get that perspective.

Awesome. Two more questions and then we're done. Okay, and these are big ones, but two more and we're done.

What are some of the most difficult issues these guys are gonna deal with? What are some of the most difficult things that they can expect to, not when, sorry, not if, but when these things pop up?

I think the most difficult is being bitten by the sheep.

That's what I got right here, number one. Because I could care less if like a

Planned Parenthood supporter threw a bottle of urine at me. Yeah.

I could care less if someone on the internet, you know, said something nasty about me.

But like, if it's someone that you, like, if you're doing, if you're pastoring the way you should and you're loving the sheep and you're laying your life down for them when they bite you, that's like the, probably the hardest thing.

Yeah. You know, and I constantly would say this, I've said this to you all the time, I said it to Wade last night, like, we're not doing this for the sheep.

Ultimately, we're doing this for Christ. And if our mentality or perspective ever changes to where you're doing it for the sheep, you will get, you will be destroyed and you will wanna quit.

Yeah. And that's why so many guys quit. In a sentence, just be prepared to be hurt by people that profess to love

Jesus. Right. That's what my pastor told me a long time ago. Most painful thing is when people love you one day, they hate you the next.

But Paul, again, he prepares us for that. He said, they will come from within you, among you.

Yeah. Those who look like sheep, but, and they fool you too, but they are wolves and they want to destroy you and the enemy will use them or what specific sin could be bitterness.

Yeah. Could be past conflict. We've seen this, that they didn't deal with correctly. The enemy has an in within this person's life and then they wreak havoc on the church.

But internal conflict amongst the sheep is the most difficult thing to deal with. Because again, we could get shot in the face, preferably not the face, the shoulder would be better.

We get shot, we get beat up, spit on, we get all that. I might do you a favor. I mean, some of the conflicts that we have gone through within the two years

I've been a pastor here, I would have rather got shot in the leg or stabbed in the neck than go through that.

It was that painful. Yeah. Hundreds of hours with one conflict. So you have to be ready for that.

And what we would say to you, when that time comes, you have to operate on principle. Yeah. You have to operate on principle.

You have to tell them what they need to hear. You have to confront the sin, because it's going to be there.

And don't let the possibility of somebody leaving your fold get you to compromise on what you know to be true and the right thing to do.

You do the right thing to do, no matter what. And you guys have modeled that. Remember, we're not going to get into that.

There was a point in your ministry, three disciplinary procedures in one night. You thought it was going to go, but you guys said, no,

God's word is true. This is what he's called us to do. And we'll let the chips fall where they may.

All right, last thing, what kind of temptations are thrown at young pastors? What, because you're going to get into the field, and of course the enemy is going to assault a shepherd.

You strike the sheep, the shepherd, the sheep will scatter. So what type of temptations are thrown at young pastors?

Yeah, and I don't just mean - For the sake of expediency. Yeah, I don't just mean like theology, or I don't,

I mean, I've never even felt that pull, like the compromise on theology. But I think just on principles, like you have to be grounded in principle.

You have to say, this is what God, this is how God's word says to deal with any given situation.

And I have to stick to that, no matter how hard it is, no matter how many people get hurt, or attack you, or whatever.

Like, this is the truth, this is my objective standard, and I have to stick on this. That would probably be the most tempting thing to compromise on, because, and again, a lot of it's because you really like people.

And so you're willing to compromise on those things because you like someone and you love them, but that may not be the best thing for them.

Absolutely. And if you've compromised on something in that scale, odds are it's because you've compromised on a smaller scale.

So Jesus says, he who is faithful with little will also be faithful with much. And so what about your own life?

What about your own sin? What about your own family? What have you allowed to go on without addressing? What have you left unchecked in terms of what the enemy has introduced?

Whether it's temptation to be unfaithful to your ministry, or your family, you know, what have you, that the compromise doesn't just present itself and go, hey, here

I am. Like, it starts smaller. So what has led you to that point? And so, yeah.

I think you hit something else too that is important. I think there's a tremendous temptation to,

I think we may have talked about this last time, but to make the church your mistress.

So there's, it's very easy to, you know, to keep putting your family and your wife to the side.

Because there's, like, you're doing righteous things. It's not like you're sinning or doing something sinful, but it can become sin when you've, you know, not kept it in the correct order.

So if you're shunning your family and not giving the time and love and attention they need, because you're putting all your time and energy into the church, like, then that becomes a mistress, you know, and so that's very tempting.

And it's very difficult. Even when you know it's a problem, it's difficult.

Like, you have to set very strict parameters at times, you know, to make sure that your family's not neglected.

Yeah. Absolutely. I think on a more, maybe just something to help young men that are getting ready to travel abroad and minister in a missionary capacity or as a pastor, just make sure your identity in Christ is solidified.

Make sure you know that and you feel it in your bones. Sometimes you gotta tell yourself that daily. Your conviction about your union with Jesus, that he's yours, that you're his, because all of those things will just be tested.

Your foundations, when you go off on your own and there's no one there around you, and you're all alone, and it's just you and your family, you will be tested.

Your beliefs will be tested about what you believe about God, what's possible about his gospel, about what he's gonna do in the world.

All of those things are gonna be tested. And if your identity is in anything else besides Christ, you're gonna crumble really quickly, because it will be tested, but if it's found to be built on the rock, it will weather the storm, you know?

And that's to me. Like, that's not just speaking to aspiring pastors, but that's to me.

That's currently, that's always what you have to lean on, ultimately, is who you are in Christ, because if it's in the work that you do, if it's in manufacturing a sense of work from the ministry, like, this is what

I've produced, therefore that's who I am, you're just gonna struggle, and you're gonna have, it's just changing that manner of belief, making sure that your identity in Jesus is solid in your spiritual disciplines, big too.

Are you praying now? Are you spending adequate, meaningful time with the

Lord in prayer now? Is your Bible reading? Like, are you in the Word now? Do you love it? Are you doing family worship now with your family?

Are you leading your family in family worship? Because all of those foundations have to be in place, and they will be tested.

They'll be tested in temptations from the enemy. They'll be tested in the circumstances that are uncertain and just come upon you out of nowhere.

God will ordain the trials that expose the reality of your walk with Christ and how strong it really is.

And so, be prepared. Gold, gold nuggets flying out everywhere.

That's why I knew it happened, bringing you guys on the show. Gold nuggets flying out everywhere. We're almost done.

I think sexual temptation, of course, those things are to be expected. God will expose so much in you.

He's doing just as much in you as in the place He's called you to minister. Maybe even more so at first.

Like, I can think of two or three things off the top of my head. Like, my view of God's sovereignty is so much stronger when it has been experienced and put through the fire.

Like, do you really believe that He's in control? Your attitude towards sin and sin killing. Like, all of the gunk that will get exposed in your life when you're separated from your church community that you didn't even know was there, but it's been brought out through refining fire.

Like I said, your prayer life. Are you crying out to God? Are you seeking

Him? Is it your desire to know Him more? Because God will shape you in that crying out.

He'll shape you in the struggle. He'll shape you in the striving. For His glory, that's where He does

His work, is in the closet. So, how's your closet? Is your closet life better than your street corner prayers?

Right. That's good. Yeah, I think that's absolutely awesome. I think one of the greatest temptations is to take this position and to use it as a platform for yourself.

To exalt your own name. To use popularity as a means of just self -exaltation.

Yeah, what will happen? The Bible says, if you exalt yourself, you'll be humbled. And I've done it. I think I really feel like God humbled me after we dissolved the church that I started.

And there was so much crushing that happened because it needed to happen, because it was all just about me.

And if I preached good enough, if I had people looking to me, it was just all about me and my pride.

It was for my own being glory. So don't do it. Don't be tempted into making it about you.

Don't be too big to do the small stuff. Don't be too small to do the big stuff. Everything is significant for the kingdom.

One tiny little seed at a time is moving the vehicle forward, no matter what you're doing.

Well, thanks, guys. I think we can go on ad infinitum. Is that right?

Ad infinitum. Ad infinitum. Made that word up. No, I appreciate you guys so much. Hey, thanks so much.

I know you're on your sabbatical here trying to get rest, so I appreciate you. And this has been so uplifting for me.

And if you're watching along with us, we hope that it was encouraging to you. Stay tuned for more good stuff.

We got a lot of cool stuff. Dr. Wade over here. I thought you said Morgan stuff. Dr. Wade and I are gonna be talking to some

Mormons, hopefully. And actually, we're gonna do a show on Joseph Smith coming up here. A lot of provoking stuff on the horizon.

But what do we want you to do with this? We hope that you would go preach the gospel, go rescue babies, destroy cultural idols, and use your life to glorify

God. That's what we want. So we love you. Thanks, guys. And we will see you next time. Peace out.