October 5, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now, it's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And good morning afternoon, wherever you are. The stack of stuff is large today. Of course in my case It's not a stack of stuff sitting here. It's a stack of stuff on the hard drive of my computer Specifically sound files and all sorts of neat fun wonderful stuff that I want to get to but you may recall on Third well, actually less than Thursday It was if we've sort of missed that one on Friday morning.

We had our last dividing line and I mentioned on the dividing line some of the posts that had been put on the Catholic answers forums and Of course there are millions of websites out there there's the Catholic answers forums and there's blogs and and If anyone ever for even more than a few moments tried to keep up with the Steve Ray board I think that thing would you'd post something on that and you'd come back five minutes later.

It's on the second page. Yeah, it's just I've never I never did figure out how in the world you could even try to follow that one even if you even if your life was such you just sit around and do nothing more than write blog entries or Web board entries things like that.

And so anyways, I had mentioned that someone had come in the channel. I had given me a Link coach should come to channel. Give me a link and There was a I don't know. There was a two hundred and fourteen messages or something on this one thread went back to August I didn't even know it had been there and I had made some comments about well just the very personal stuff that people who've never met me Don't know anything about me other than maybe they've listened to a single tape or a single debate or Read a single article someplace.

I even pointed out some of the folks who who made these big long Discussions about my character and all the rest of stuff and then a few messages later. Well, actually, I've only read one thing He ever wrote just just like okay.

All right. Well, that's that's fascinating and so I had mentioned all this stuff and Then I also mentioned on the blog that that had been generated some some interesting responses and one One of those who had responded Had said some interesting things Had said Since I had talked about on the program rather than posting on the thing that he didn't know this at the time.

But I couldn't get into the forums I had I had signed up and it had access initially when they first came online and then it stopped working. I couldn't get in I I requested Over the because I wanted to get hold of the Greg Assisi fellow.

I had requested My password to be sent to me. Nothing was sent to me. I Tried signing up at least one time. I think to valid email addresses. Nothing was ever sent to me. So, you know when you try a number of different ways numerous different requests and nothing ever shows up.

You sort of wonder well, you know, maybe You know, maybe I'm persona non grata there. So he wouldn't have any way of knowing that I couldn't get in by the way in passing The the lady Teresa who runs the forums who for some reason didn't get to go on the cruise.

You get to do all the hard work on the forum site. I think she'd be the first one on the boat. Okay, but she didn't get to go. Anyway, she wrote to me because someone posted what I had said on I posted this thing from 10 -1 on the Catholic answers forums and She got to me and said, you know, what's your user ID?

What's the email address you used? I'll reset it. I don't know why that it wouldn't be sending you stuff and all the rest that stuff and. So we got all worked out and and I was able to get back in on my original one not the ones I signed up on and All the rest that stuff so I I have access now, but I didn't them and so a fellow down, Texas Who I guess his name Jonathan?

Had said some things like then why can't he say it to a person's face? Why would he hide behind a microphone when he could actually address people directly? Well, and I pointed out like I do debates and I I have a call-in radio program.

And I travel all over the United States and and we do question and answer things and you know I mean, I really honestly believe that especially in this area. I'm significantly more accessible than Well name almost anybody else.

Now does that mean that I feel under some obligation? To invest huge amounts of time and especially this month, I mean not in if I include last week, I'm speaking 35 times in 40 days and major debate I have to get stuff in for the next semester teaching at Golden Gate.

I've got articles to write with the CRI Journal and for the Reform Baptist Theological Review and all the rest of stuff and Sitting on web boards is not you know. That takes a lot of time even as fast as I type it's a whole lot faster to respond to this stuff this way.

I mean, that's why I like live debates. You can do that a whole lot faster and it's a lot more interesting than just sitting there and reading along and so on so forth so anyway. This person continued on saying that he whines on his own blog again with no comments allowed rather than making use the comment function On theirs.

Well again, there is no end to written sniping. But quite honestly a lot of stuff I was responding to wasn't wasn't. It was stuff that was personal. What am I supposed to how in the world you respond to people saying?

You're an arrogant nasty Self-absorbed, how do you respond to that kind of stuff? Anyways, I mean if these people are saying actually well James White was wrong because he said that the verb in Romans 5 1 is an heiress and that in the context of the relationship between the verb and The the state of peace he's wrong about that and here's grammatically why.

Then I could respond to that that that's something that would be worth Taking the time to write something out about but when people who've never met you don't know anything about you. They've they they've never taken the time to find out what my kids are like.

What my wife is like what my daughter is like. We've got some news on that front for those of you who know what I'm talking about. She may be on a Radio station in San Francisco this week to discuss her letter to the president against stem cell research.

I mean, I've got great kids, you know that reflects something on me. I hope I mean I I think God's the one who made them great and just sort of said and you're gonna be you're gonna be in that. Anyways, I'll give you good kids, but they know nothing about me.

How are you supposed to respond that kind of stuff? It's it's not even worth doing so other than noting the fact that here within the context of Catholic apologetics Folks the vast majority of responses to what I have written in books like the God who justifies and the Roman Catholic controversy Has taken that form.

It's just been oh don't listen to him. He's mean nasty, man. Instead of well, you're you're wrong here or you know grammatically. This is the case and remember what just happened recently James Aiken, you know for years I've been pointing out his errors in in Greek regarding John 6 and people just kept throwing it out there throwing it out there because it was on the web and Finally a few months ago.

He takes time to go look at it and goes. What was I thinking? That's silly. Now he hasn't told us actually how to respond to that yet. But that's the kind of kind of thing. I'm talking about is if it was worthwhile talking about then we would you know do so but Comment functions.

Yeah, you know, there's no end of those things too. It says Anyway, you know and then of course you're saying that we don't have comments of mine. Yeah, it's just a plain old HTML file. I think we're gonna have RSS stuff and all the rest of that stuff on on my blog in the future.

But to be honest with you, I'm not turning on the comment functions. Anyways, it's not there as a debate forum. It's there for me to post materials that I come across and that I'm working on as I'm writing books as I'm doing debates as I'm teaching seminary and you know, that's just the way it is and He'll boast all day I'll just finish this up because Jonathan's online and I appreciate the fact John's online.

We'll bring him on just a moment. Just wanted to give the background. So, you know, we're Why why we're starting off the direction we're starting off. He'll boast all day about how much conviction he has in his position.

Boast all day is is that is that when you if you say you have convictions that's boastful. Okay, but when somebody actually throws down the gauntlet, he never has enough time to take the challenge. Although somehow he all seems to have enough time to cry on his blog about I'm sorry but That then he said to me that's just yellow-bellied.

That's just not true. I mean What? Meaningful Roman Catholic apologist has thrown down the gauntlet to me that I'm not willing to pick it up. Now if you're talking about people who just want to snipe at me and and and insult me personally on web boards.

Yeah to be perfectly honest with you. I don't feel any need whatsoever. If that's a gauntlet fine I ignore those because there's no end of those folks. I mean There's Mormons like that and Jehovah's Witnesses like that and Muslims like that and one is Pentecostals like that and man the King James only folks.

Oh, man, if if I applied this this standard to them, I I would never sleep. I would never eat again. Simply because I would be spending all day long responding to the most inane stuff that you could ever you could ever deal with so Where is the gauntlet that's been thrown down where is where are the in-depth grammatical exegetical responses to the God who justifies Where is that stuff?

Why why is it that? People look at certain debates and they won't look at the entirety of debates and When a debate goes just horribly wrong for the Catholic side it's because I'm a good debater or I tricked somebody or I I Ambushed somebody or they're just not a good debater.

But if a Roman Catholic even even Stays in the debate. Ah, see there's the true church and and all the rest of stuff the standards just simply aren't consistent and That's what I tried to point out. So I appreciate the fact, you know It said that the the Jonathan was from Texas and I said, you know, I was just in Texas I was just in Dallas.

I loved I had so much fun down there the elders of the church I was speaking that we for our for our field trip. We went the cheaper than dirt. Okay, you know and at the beginning of when I had presentations I was showing pictures of my Smith Wesson m5 hundred fifty caliber Magnum and folks in Texas like that and I mentioned the Bumper sticker on the the trucks.

I think it was one of the deacons actually It said Yanks one rebels nothing halftime, you know It's just we've got a bunch of Texas folks sitting in channel right now that are hooting and Making noise and doing things like well not making noise.

I wouldn't let that happen. But anyway So I sort of figured you know, what if anyone's actually going to take the time to call in our friend from Texas Might actually do so so with that background for those of you who did not read the blog and if you want to read the whole Thing it was October 1st ought for it's there's only one.

There's only two entries that have have been posted since then so it's still on the main page October 1st of 2004 today's DL results in odd CA forum comments was the was the title and so with that, let's let's go down to to the land that Spawned the Alamo and All sorts of other neat and fun wonderful stuff like that and the talk giant Jonathan.

Hi Jonathan. Thanks for calling in.

I passed Dwight. Good to meet you. Good to talk to you, sir. Okay. Basically, I can just start if you want to and reference to the things that you were talking about. I actually agree with a great deal of it.

I think that the personal attacks are Completely unwarranted especially now that I've found out about your firepower both in the apologetics and the real world. I think you know and I've I've I've always I think been Been pretty careful to say that I think that you know, it strikes me that you're an excellent father excellent pastor.

And you know, I don't want to cast aspersions on your character. My concern is that the environment. That that essentially You're not helping that environment at all taking the approach that you have and the reason I say this is yeah.

You know, I can watch it on the web and I can see what happens on both sides and it seems to me like just simply the lack of Putting something out there that says I'm going to talk about this, especially when you're responding directly to someone's argument.

You know essentially if they're willing to put an argument out in public. That's that's sort of an invitation to discuss it and and I agree with that. But I think I think the impression sort of the pattern that people have seen is that you'll answer it.

But they're finding out on their own because they hit the blog or whatever but they sort of haven't had any notification and I think that people just sort of get the impression that that you're you're Coming from behind somewhere, you know, you're you're essentially trying to hide the fact that you're responding.

Although obviously your blogs public. Well, Jonathan, could I ask you some do you know if anyone who has posted this stuff? And I remind you the the thread that I started talking about started in August.

The first time I ever found out about it was from coach last week. So in other words no one From the Roman Catholic side who posted anything about me ever said anything to me. They never said I'm reviewing you.

They never said I'm posting this stuff. So if they aren't under any obligation to inform me That they're saying that I'm an arrogant stuck-up Person who only wants to make money and all the rest of stuff that they say.

Why would I be under any obligation to then? Take my very limited time and And edit and you can look at my calendar. I've been all over the place Frequently have difficulty even getting good internet access while I'm traveling.

Why should I go and and Post something that will of course result in you know. How many can you imagine if I if I started actually posting stuff on the Catholic answers forums? I mean we'd shut the server down almost in in responses.

Why should I have to go there and say you know what? I'm going to mention on my blog or I'm going to mention on the dividing line I'm gonna read some of these personal attacks and I'm gonna make application that you know What this is what I see all the time and isn't it odd that what I don't see Posted in these places is what I mentioned before an in-depth review for example of of the 24 page chapter in the God who justifies on James chapter 2 verses 14 and following that is very closely argued very fully referenced filled with the original languages and I never get anybody Responding to that kind of stuff instead.

I get James White is a stuck-up arrogant mean-spirited guy and therefore Well even in your own in your thread that you posted you I think you started it guy named Scott. What else said everyone would be much better off they put white in the same category as the Raelians Fringe elements who don't have anything to say that is worth expending mental energy contemplating.

Do you see where I I don't see the that there's a parallel here that they would substantiate your position. I absolutely.

Agree with that and and I I mean I think that that are beneath discussion. And you don't get the kind of response you deserve and and you know frankly on the internet. I think that there is Relatively little opportunity.

I mean I know that that strong not one of your favorite people because.

Dave and I go back so far that you know it's the sad thing there is. Is I've tried to introduce some humor there because be honest with you I I gave up on that one. I just and you know you're entitled to do it.

And you know that that happens in real life, but I'm Jonathan. Monty Python's pretty good, right? Yeah, well have you ever heard my introduction to when I when I'd respond to Dave.

No, no on the on the show. I don't have a real player at work. Oh that that's that's I.

Just for everybody's just you'll like this hold on a second da on ca. Everybody in the listening on it, and we stopped doing this because I'm done responding to him, but this is how I began each Section of the of the response to a Dave Armstrong rich make sure that you've got good feed to the to the Phone line there, so that's so Jonathan can hear this.

Spanish Inquisition. I am usually referred to as the master. There are some who call me.

Him. So that's so that's that's how we got started all right, so I.

Can appreciate that? Well, I mean the point being you know he writes rather extensively.

Although you know his grocery list is 12 pages long. What are you talking?

And and you know and I you know I'm willing to take him at his word that I think you know if he if he's Under a word limit he can stick to it, but you know regardless the thing is I think that he proceeds That that's required to go into these things in depth.

And you know if that's if that's true, and that is in fact the case It's gonna be hard to hang you know in an internet forum or or anything like that. And and so you know I I understand that there's you know you can't sit in a forum.

And and I completely agree with you than typing. Oh, yeah but the concern like I said is essentially Essentially If you sort of take the position that It's it's not you know essentially by giving a response to some particular class of activity.

You're saying well. There's some kind of response. Maybe not an in-depth response Maybe a brief response or something like that and the point is if there's going to be a directed response to someone particular Particular then I think that they're entitled to if you're going to respond to it I think that they're entitled to know that you're responding to okay.

Well more courtesy than you get I agree. Well and let me point something out. I I only all I did was I read Certain portions of that thread and I gave the Nick. I mean, I'm not even I don't even know these people's names.

I mean your your your ID is wasn't Jonathan on the on the thread either. I mean, I just used whatever was there and so some of these things were written two months ago. I I mean, I just the reason that I and and let me clarify one thing.

It's not so much giving a response. I mean a response in my mind would be if someone actually made a substantive argument. And I want to respond to it with substance what I was doing and what I frequently do in on the dividing line is I I try to grab sound files.

Bring stuff into the program and say look here's an apologetic lesson. We can learn from this and what's the apologetic lesson we can learn from the Catholic answers forums. Well, the fact the matter is this isn't the only place where a form of ad hominem argumentation is used to try in essence to Get people to not listen to what a particular side is saying and it's one thing if there has been a tremendous amount of in-depth Response to a particular individual and they just don't listen and they just keep saying the same things over and over again.

That's one thing but you know anyone who would try to argue that in my case just isn't dealing with the documentation. It's out there. That's first thing. So I'm just simply trying to show here is the situation where you have individuals who are using Bad forms of argumentation and I don't see anybody stepping in other than Protestants.

I mean coaches is one of the few people and I think there was one other in the in the thread who was basically saying Hey folks, you what are you doing here? You don't know this guy and Jonathan you gotta admit.

I don't know how much You have. I don't know if you've ever read any of my books. I don't know if you've listened any debates I've done. If you haven't I would really really like to offer to you for example.

And in fact, I wouldn't even offer you one of my books. I'll tell you this if you'd like to listen to or watch. I wish you could watch all of them. You could if certain people would let the videotapes they have out for distribution.

But if you would like to listen to the ones you can listen to and watch the ones you watch of Myself and Mitch Packwood, you know who Mitch Packwood is, right? Okay, he's he honestly I and I people will tell you you can go back in the archives this program.

I have repeatedly said over and over and over again that I have tremendous respect for Mitch Packwood. Of all the people I've debated I have the most respect for him because he doesn't engage in ad hominem argumentation.

He doesn't back off of what he believes. He doesn't Engage in cheap debating tricks and we've done five debates since 1990. I mean I joked in the one in 1999 that we did that both of us had considerably more hair the last time that we had debated and it's true.

I mean, we were both a lot thinner. Yards that gravity has been taking effect, but we've debated Justification the mass sola scriptura the papacy and the priesthood. The last one was a year ago this past May when we debated the priesthood on Long Island and I would be happy to send you the CDs and DVDs.

The ones that we've taped the last three we have those the first two were videotaped. But the Roman Catholic folks that have it will not allow those videotapes to be distributed. We'll send to the CDs of those listen to those debates see if they are not fair respectful.

Stay on the subject. I mean, I honestly think they are they are Illustrative of the fact that you can discuss these things. Without the use of acid without, you know getting people's faces and so on and so forth.

I don't use the kind of argumentation that I was documenting on the Catholic answers forums. You won't find me. Someone might say oh, yes, you do it. Dave Armstrong. Well, you know what we respond to Dave Armstrong in a very serious way for a long time.

Dave arms. We even set up a debate in our chat channel with Dave Armstrong for a long time and until He started getting a little bit odd for my perspective then I started using humor, but you're not going to find me.

For example trying to dig up information on Patrick Madrid's family. You're not going to find me trying to Attack Carl Keating. For you know Pulling the wings off butterflies or something. I mean, that's just not that's not what we do.

Anybody who looks at our website can see that when you look at the sections on on Roman Catholicism. They're primarily dealing with patristics and and what did Augustine actually say? He never said Rome has spoken the case is closed.

Here's what he actually said. Here's the Latin. Here's the context. You know looking at things like that. You're just not going to find from our perspective from our side that kind of behavior. And I do think that's relevant to an examination because many of the people who come into our channel or contact our ministry.

They're saying how do I get past this? Emotionalism this. Well, I'm not gonna listen to you because you people are you know, this person's me and how do I get past that? It is a relevant apologetic issue on that level and that's why I addressed it on the program.

And I mean, I think that that's entirely fair I guess the problem that I've seen particularly in the blog Wars phenomenon, which I know is not going to be a Great topic for anybody, but it seems like that sort of the situation where You have the mutual monologue situation on the blogs.

It becomes so easy to dehumanize each other that essentially Sort of sort of the fact that you're not there or and you know, this isn't very nice and you know I'm not that kind of person even if it's just to say that I think that it I think that it helps the climate for discourse.

Because I mean you're a human being, you know, I don't I don't think that you're a bad person. I don't think that that that anyone who sincerely takes a position as a bad person I don't think I think father Pacwa gets along with you fine.

We do and so, you know, I think that sort of the It's it's it's the lack of interaction and and that's what I meant by. Essentially the face-to-face thing was I completely agree with you. There's no call for saying most of the things that you do.

But I don't think that it would hurt anything to go in there and say look, you know I think you're completely wrong on this and you know, I'm a person, you know, don't talk about me. You like I'm some kind of ogre and let's you know Johnson.

Don't they know that?

I mean, don't they know that I'm a person and I don't think so.

I honestly don't because otherwise there wouldn't be so much traction for these kind of arguments. I mean, it wouldn't be believable it it is believed. I I guess the example that I give is Tony Snow was talking about being on the Bush campaign and one of the concerns he had with the elder Bush was that he wouldn't Get out there and defend his honor.

It's like even if the charges are bogus if you don't get out there and make a statement People are going to assume they're true. Anyway, and I agree that it's beneath the level of discourse, but I'm afraid that Set in the situation where there isn't a direct notification to someone.

Hey, I think your argument is bogus and I'm responding to it that. But that's what creates this climate where you can have separate people. Essentially doing mutual monologues that just get nastier and nastier on both sides.

Well, I mean, maybe that's putting a great deal of responsibility on it. You don't feel well.

Yeah, well, let's put this way. There is no possible way. I mean, I would no longer be able to do The dividing line and respond to and do what you just said like Bush needed to do and defend his honor if I had to contact every person.

Because remember unlike what is said by many people in the forums Roman Catholicism is not what I wake up thinking about in the morning and go to bed thinking about at night in fact. It's one of many many issues that I deal with and if I had to Before I went on the air make sure that I had somehow personally contacted Every you know today, for example, I'm gonna play a clip from Harold camping.

I don't know if you know who Harold camping is. But there they've got this teaching that everyone should flee the churches and all the rest of stuff. I'm gonna play a section from from not Harold can be himself.

But one of his followers from family radio now, do I have to contact him and tell him I'm gonna do that. Even though this is something that was recorded and broadcast on the air if I had to do that and then had to contact Chuck Smith cuz I'm gonna play a section from Calvary Chapel's discussion of Calvinism and then and if I had to contact everybody on the CA forums and all the King James only folks and all the rest as.

If I'd never be able to give the very responses that you rightly point out I should give. I think the best place to provide the response is right here because as you've just proven There's a phone number and you can call and say I'm right or wrong.

You can defend what you said or say, you know. What what I said was wrong and I I shouldn't have phrased the way I did. I there's a there's a give-and-take here. That's actually much more open because there's other people watching and listening Than there is on the Catholic answers forums.

And so, you know, that's that's why I think it's more Useful to do it in this way, especially since I don't know those people they don't know me and I wasn't using their names. I was simply using these are people who've just said things about me on on a forum if I was saying hey.

Here's the person's name. Here's their email address call them up and write them up and tell them that they're nasty for saying. You know, that's different. I wasn't doing that. I was using it as an apologetic illustration that this is bad argumentation and this is something we don't do and Won't put up with if we were in a situation like that.

And I mean, I understand that there are that there are time constraints and and as you said, you know there there gonna be some people who are essentially out in the in the public not going to be convenient for you to in in the in the case of Dr. Seyfried, I'm not sure, you know, maybe if you had gotten a hold of his email address.

There's some of it that could be resolved. Maybe not.

Well that that's a whole different issue there because we're talking I'm not no longer talking about an anonymous Person on a on a web forum where you sort of have a feeding frenzy to get started in that situation.

You're talking about a published book. That is it has been in the published realm for four years now, right?

And I mean, I think I think that there. You know, you can get to the point where it's like well, you know, even even if their defense is. You're misconstruing what they said, though. Give some consideration the fact that they be may be misconstruing what yours.

Oh, yeah, no toys about it. And and and and you know, I those kind of situations I'm not sure if they're gonna be avoidable, but you know, I suppose that's the point is if they had given you The the same the same the same deference that they expect from you.

You know. And the same sort of that you would that you would like to have from them. Then then maybe maybe it just doesn't it doesn't get particularly nasty and and I. Guess in these situations, you know when it's something like a forum or something like that to me and and maybe I just have a skewed perspective on this but to me if there's time to You know draft it some significant length about it, you know.

It wouldn't be that hard to drop something on the thread except one thing Jonathan if I drop anything on this thread What's gonna happen? Oh, yeah I mean, it's gonna blow up and who's and then what are people gonna say if I don't then respond to every single response to What I said, then I'm believe me and I've seen this happen.

That's why I I've never posted there other than to send a one private message to one person once. Is that yeah if if I say something man, I now allegedly, I'm under the Responsibility to respond to every single thing that said said to me even if I've responded to the issues that are raised a Thousand times before and the people who are responding feel absolutely no Obligation whatsoever to read anything that I've ever read and I'm not just talking about on the Internet.

I'm talking about in nationally published books from recognized publishers Scholarly journals, whatever it might be. They don't have to read anything. But I have to read everything they say and then respond to it fully and if I dare even refer them to something I've written that's also a cop-out too.

I've been there done that got the t-shirt and believe you know, and I completely agree.

I mean, I guess, you know from my perspective and maybe maybe I'm just being too optimistic about this. But sort of sort of my position and something like that is, you know, you're really writing for the reasonable people.

That's the only people I can write for. And so and exactly.

So, you know, obviously a reasonable person isn't going to cushion that you're. You know that your indications that I don't have time to go through this I you know I think anyone who's been involved in an online dialogue knows how much time those things can take and If they can't understand that I think that that that is.

They can take forever. Hey Jonathan, we were actually blew right past where we normally take a break and everything else. I just want to thank you for stepping up and for calling in. It does help to clear the air somewhat and and I was very serious about Stating.

If you'd like to listen to the to all the Pacwa debates Just just stay on the line and I'll have rich take down the information. We'll send them to you. And the reason I say that is because there you get both sides there even Steven, you know.

I mean, it's not just one side lecturing away. You got both sides represented there and you know, I I Would really invite you if you haven't had a chance to listen to him to get a chance to do so.

Sure. No, and and thanks for you know, giving me the opportunity to explain where I'm coming from. Okay, I mean, you know, I don't want you know, I don't want it to be taken as one of these nasty attacks.

That's not what I'm that's not the point that I'm trying to make. Well, let me tell you something. I ain't yellow-bellied. So All right friend, thanks for calling in thank you. All right, by the way.

Well, that's that hey we give folks an opportunity that's what we do and I don't know if he stayed on there if a rich got a chance to talk to him or not, but Be glad to send him the the Pacwa debates so he can he can listen in for himself.

Hey, I just got an email just in passing. I just wanted Just very quickly before we go on with the other things. Some of you know about most of you know about Summer's letter and the fact that her not only was she given no credit for it, but but it was not sent to the president.