August 16, 2017 Show with Michael J. Kruger on “The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture’s Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity” AND Joseph Jacowicz on “‘Send the Light’ Conference”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth or listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arntzen at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the 16th day of August 2017 and we have two guests on the program today, one a returning guest and one for the second hour a new guest.

The Heresy of Orthodoxy and the Challenge of Early Christian Diversity

We're going to start off the program with Dr. Michael J. Kruger and we're going to talk about his book, The Heresy of Orthodoxy, How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity.

During the second hour we're going to have Joseph Jakowitz on the program. He's the founder of First Love Publications and one of two pastors at Christ Bible Church of Dublin, California. We're going to be discussing the Send the Light conference in Versailles, Kentucky that's coming up in just a couple of weeks.

But first of all let me introduce our first guest. Dr. Michael J. Kruger is president and Samuel C. Patterson professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at Reform Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina.

He's an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America also known as the PCA, a pastor of teaching at Uptown Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, and a blogger at michaeljkruger .com. And as I said we are going to be addressing his book, The Heresy of Orthodoxy, How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Michael J. Kruger. Thanks Chris, great to be back with you again. Yeah, it's great to have you back and I'll repeat a little bit of trivia information that Dr. Kruger actually was once a pastoral intern in the church where I am currently a member, Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

We have that, a long time ago. Yeah, and Reid Rusniak sends his greetings. He is always delighted to hear when you are on the program. Fantastic, Willem. I will. And before we even go into the subject at hand of The Heresy of Orthodoxy, we have new listeners, it appears, discovering Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day.

And I'm getting contacted either during the show or after the show or before the show by listeners I've never heard from before who have discovered Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and have fallen in love with it.

So for the sake of those folks, especially, who have never heard you on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio before, please give us a brief description of Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina and also Uptown Church.

In Charlotte. Yeah, an institution that was started in 1966 at our three main campuses and beyond. So is Uptown serving in the local church? Well, I would appreciate it if you would send my greetings.

To the OPC in Charlotte. I was very warmly greeted there a number of years ago when I was traveling through Charlotte and they put me up for the night. And it was just a wonderful time fellowshipping with them and worshipping with them at the OPC there in Matthews, North Carolina,.

Which I believe is right next to Charlotte, correct? I appreciate it. Well, we are going.

Why Walter Bauer’s Thesis Still Matters

To be talking about a very controversial book that you have written, The Heresy of Orthodoxy, and that has nothing to do, I just want to let our listeners know, it has nothing to do with Hank Hanegraaff's recent conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy.

It's not about Eastern Orthodoxy at all, but that would be a good title for a book about that subject. But this is in regard to orthodoxy meaning biblically sound and so on, straight as the word means.

And please explain this seemingly contradicting title or oxymoronic title, The Heresy of Orthodoxy.

Yeah, absolutely. So to understand the title, you have to understand you can't even really start talking about it. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of D. A. Carson's book, The Intolerance of Tolerance. It's a very similar idea.

And by the way, I want to let our listeners.

Know our email address if you'd like to join us with a question. It is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, that's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And you may remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter, such as if you disagree with your own pastor on something or a matter like that that would compel you to remain anonymous. We understand and we will grant your wishes.

But if it's not about a personal and private matter, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence. What's interesting about Bauer's theories is that, isn't it true that there has never been a day since the dawn of Christianity where there were not false religions masquerading as Christianity competing with it?

Even in the days that the New Testament canon was being compiled, the very authors of the New Testament were warning about the uprise of heretics, and they were even naming heretics that had existed, especially the Apostle Paul did that.

Why does this seem to indicate, in his mind, that there was no real Christianity? Just because there were differences of opinion, as there are all the way up to millennium later today, you have all different kinds of either orthodox churches and denominations that disagree with each other, but are still nonetheless adhering to the same gospel, or you have apostate churches, and you have cults, and you have all kinds of things, for the entirety of the existence of the New Testament.

Church. Now, Bauer would have been near the tail end of what is known as the fundamentalist.

Modernist controversy, although its ripple effects still continue today in some fashion, but what role did he play, if any, in that controversy as far as a notable figure?

Uh, very little, because no one knew. Yeah, Bart Ehrman is quite a tragic figure,.

In that he was once an evangelical Christian who was spoken of and thought of very highly by some fairly renowned Christian scholars, who believed he had a bright and shining future ahead of him as a Christian scholar and apologist, and he abandoned ship, and for a man as intelligent for him, it seemed that there were very shallow reasons that he abandoned ship, but he seems to insist that unless, in all the controversies that are surrounding the New Testament and the fact that there are some areas of differences in manuscript evidence and so on, that that just totally destroys the credibility of Christianity altogether, and it's amazing that he actually became an apostate over some of these issues.

Yeah, I mean, uh, Ehrman has, uh, what we, I mean, he, he, he would attribute his...

Yeah, so, uh, you're saying that it's really Bart Ehrman who has revived Bauer's thinking, and that, uh, Bauer is somehow making an impact in the 21st century now?

Oh, he's making a...

We have a listener in Runnels, Iowa, Chris in Runnels, Iowa. He says, thanks for having Dr. Kruger on to discuss this topic. I'm wondering if Dr. Kruger could discuss a little the connection between modern pluralism and the move away from precise confessions and statements of faith inside the church.

Some even claim allegiance to a solid confession, yet seem to deny its truths at every turn. Is one driving the other, or are these movements independent of one another? Thank you, Dr. Kruger, for standing for truth in a relative age.

Thank you, Chris, for, as always, having a lively interview.

Yeah, I mean, uh...

Now, would you say one of the most prominent, uh, understandings of pluralism in modern-day evangelicalism, uh, is when you have people like Billy Graham and other notable figures who will say, you need Jesus to be saved, but you don't need to know that to be saved.

In other words, uh, Billy Graham, in a famous, uh, interview with Robert Shuler, basically said he believes that many are going to heaven from the Muslim faith and from the Jewish faith and from all these different religions, uh, because they are worshiping Christ without.

Knowing that they're worshiping Christ. Yeah, I mean, almost a universalism.

Yeah, yeah, I was going to say full-blown, it seems like full-blown universalism. Right. And, uh, well, let's see, we have another, we have another listener here that has a question. Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention, Chris in Reynolds, Iowa, you have won a free copy of the book that we are discussing, The Heresy of Orthodoxy, by my guest, Dr. Michael J. Kruger, and also, uh, co-authored, uh, by Andreas Kostenberger, who is no stranger to the Iron, Sharp, and Zion audience.

Uh, Dr. Kostenberger has been a guest on this program several times, and in fact, I just recently received a glowing commendation from Dr. Kostenberger, and I thank him for that. But, uh, we need your full mailing address in Reynolds, Iowa, Chris, so, uh, we, as soon as we get that, we'll hand that off to Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for biblebookservice .com, who will ship that book out to you, and we also thank, of course, Crossway for providing these books for us.

And, um, we have, uh, another listener, we have Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, and I have to enlarge, uh, Gordy's email, because it's microscopic, and while I'm doing that, if anybody would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Uh, Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania says, Sola Scriptura is the heart of this issue, but what about Tota Scriptura? It seems another problem is that people want to cherry-pick verses and consequently develop a heretical.

Theology. Um, I think that that observation is true on a general level, is that Christians...

You better be careful about those comments about Thomas Jefferson. He might have a bunch of Christians now running out there tearing down monuments. Yeah, well, let's hope that doesn't happen. Um, we have Daniel in San Jose, California, who says, I have not read this book yet, but I've heard it is a great work.

So, would you please ask Dr. Kruger, what exactly was the leading so-called evidence that Walter Bauer presented that has engulfed so much of today's secular thinking? What were some of the key points that you and Dr. Kostenberger felt compelled to address.

Within Bauer's thesis and Bart Ehrman's defense of it? He argued that what we now regard as heresy was sometimes the earliest. And so, Bauer's book was very geographic and showed early Christianity as they followed this core, sort of almost what you could say, creedal affirmations of early Christians.

This intake of these heretical books, all the evidence suggests the contrary, which is they were actually not read that off. And we have another part of Daniel's question. He says,.

What, he used improper grammar here, or a typo, what is history, logic, falsities, or all of the above? I'm not really sure what he means by that. What were some of your motivations that persuaded.

You to address this matter? Now I understand what this other sentence was. Daniel in San Jose,.

California, was asking if Bart Ehrman's defenses were history, logic, falsities, or all of the above. That's what he was basically saying in his question. And you basically already went over that. So thank you, Daniel.

And we need your full mailing address as well, Daniel, because you have also won a free copy of The Heresy of Orthodoxy, How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity.

And that's compliments of Crossway, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who will be shipping that book out to you. We have Jeff in Haddon Heights, New Jersey. Now this question is kind of off, I think, the topic, but I'll ask it anyway.

When did the concept of apostolic succession arise in the Church, as understood by Catholics and Eastern Orthodox today, and was it in response to Gnostic claims, or did it come earlier?

Yeah, this is a chain of bishops, and I would say there's some powerful men through generations, and leaders, and past over time, and that we can share some partial truth to apostolic succession.

Well, thank you, Jeff, in Haddon Heights, New Jersey. You've also won a free copy of the book that we are discussing, The Heresy of Orthodoxy, so please make sure we get your full mailing address so Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service can ship that out to you.

I'm going to read you a question, Dr. Kruger, and in fact I already emailed it to you, or I forwarded it to you, from Joe in Clifton, New Jersey, and then I'll have you answer it when we return from the break.

This way you have a little bit of time to mull it over while we are going to a commercial break. And the question from Joe in New Jersey is, let's see, I just had it in front of me, Can you please relate how the process of forming the biblical canon would address Bower's arguments?

Wouldn't the process and existence of a formalized canon be an argument against a predominant diversity in early Christianity? If you could share your deeper thoughts on this, it would be helpful, thank you.

And that was Joe in Clifton, New Jersey, and I sent that to your email address so you could look that over during our break, which will, God willing, be brief. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, God willing, we'll be right back with Dr. Michael J. Kruger. One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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Study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest for the first hour of Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Michael J. Kruger, and we are discussing his book, The Heresy of Orthodoxy.

And our second guest, starting up at the top of the hour, is going to be Joseph Jakowitz of First Love Publications and Christ Bible Church of Dublin, California, who will be addressing the Send the Light conference in Versailles, Kentucky.

But if you'd like to ask a question of Dr. Kruger now, before we run out of time, send an email as soon as you can at chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com, with your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And we have, as I said earlier, Joe in Clifton, New Jersey, who asked you a question, and I had sent it to you as well. And Joe in Clifton, New Jersey asked you, and I'm enlarging the font again, because somehow that disappeared before.

Joe in Clifton, New Jersey says, Could you please relate how the process of forming the biblical canon would address Bower's arguments? Wouldn't the process and existence of a formalized canon be an argument against a predominant diversity in early Christianity?

If you could share your deeper thoughts on this, it would be helpful. Thank you.

Great question. Great. And Joey in Clifton, New Jersey, please give us your full mailing.

Address because you've also won a free copy of The Heresy of Orthodoxy, Compliments of Crossway, and Compliments of CV, bbs .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. And we have a listener in Simsbury, Connecticut.

We have John in Simsbury, Connecticut says, I'm a big fan of Dr. Krueger and thank him for his work. I would like to know if Dr. Krueger has any online material written or video classes that would be helpful along with his book.

That's John. Great. And so thanks a lot, John. And you have also won a free copy of Dr. Krueger's book, The Heresy of Orthodoxy. And thanks for already providing your mailing address. So we'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that out as soon as possible.

And once again, your website, Dr. Krueger, is michaeljkrueger .com. Michael J. And that's K-R-U-G-E-R .com. And that's for the cannon fodder website. And we have some somebody who's just sent a greeting, not particularly a question.

She just says, I'm so happy to see you interview Dr. Michael Krueger. I enjoyed his Romans study years. I wrote his. I enjoyed his Romans year long study at RTS, and I'm looking forward to hearing him on the program.

Keep up the great guests you have on Sharpens Iron Radio. That's Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania. There's an interesting thing that is involved, I think, in this whole matter of diversity in the early church.

There is some there is a very important way, I believe, that Protestants will point to the necessity and the truth of sola scriptura because of the fact that even learned men of God in the patristic age, for instance, even though many of the church fathers are referred to by Protestants, in fact, even during the Reformation, Martin Luther and the reformers, when having their debates with Roman Catholics, they would bring up the fathers to prove that the reformers were not casting aside the roots of the true church, they were reviving them.

But the fact of the matter is that the reformers knew that scripture alone is the only God-breathed document, scripture is the only God-breathed document that we have, and our sole inerrant and infallible authority, even though we have other authorities, it's the only inerrant and infallible authority, and they will point to the fact, and they have, the reformers and others, even Protestants today, point to the fact that the church fathers are riddled with disagreement.

Even as long ago as the patristic age, you did not have a consensus, which is where the Roman Catholic Church is being very dishonest, especially when you're talking about very learned and educated scholars who keep perpetuating a myth that there was some kind of monolithic thing going on here with the patristics, where there is clearly a great disagreement.

So isn't there a lot of truth in the fact that there is diversity, and that's why.

We believe in the scripture alone as our sole infallible authority? Yeah, so I'll sort of guide you through that. Actually, kind of swoop in, and now that might be a complete, that seems to be the core.

Yeah, right, and whereas the Catholics, though, are contradicting their rhetoric,.

Because they will say that the church fathers were in complete harmony, at least all, I should say, a great number of them, perhaps the majority of them, there are some honest Catholic scholars and historians who don't make that claim.

But we have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who asks, what conservative figures or denominations or groups today.

Have been seduced by Bauer, if any? I'm assuming he meant formally conservative, as I'm assuming. Ah, well, certainly no core doctrine. Well, Ronald, you have also won a free copy of The.

Heresy of Orthodoxy, so please make sure we get your mailing address, your full mailing address, as soon as possible, and we'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship that out to you. Well, I want to make sure that in the time that we have left, you have at least four minutes to uninterrupted summarize what you mainly want our listeners to have etched in their hearts and.

Minds when they leave this program about this topic today. Well, you are going to be one of.

Many speakers, as I was saying earlier, at the upcoming G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia. The G3 conference that has been created a number of years ago by Pastor Josh Bice and the brethren at the Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia.

And the theme in January of 2018 is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. And you are going to be joined by Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Phil Johnson, Keith Getty, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Chalies, James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, and Martha Peace.

Nearly every one of them have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I know that this is very early in the game, but have they assigned to you a topic yet for the conference? I know that the umbrella topic is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship, but do you have a subset or a unique topic under that umbrella?

Yeah, well, I think...

Oh, great, yeah. Dr. White is a dear friend. I've been a close friend of his since 1995 and.

Arranged many debates and speaking engagements with him, and he is certainly a brilliant man, and I will be waiting for that with bated breath, that panel discussion that you have with him. And I already see a connection right away, because according to the definition of discipleship, we are to be trained in having an answer for the hope that lies within us, ready at hand when we are responding to the critics of the Bible, and therefore what you have to say is going to be largely helpful to defending the integrity and authenticity of the Scriptures.

Great, well, I also want to make sure that we have all of the contact information for you, for our listeners. I know that your personal website is michaeljkruger .com, michaeljkruger .com, and then we have the Reformed Theological Seminary of Charlotte, rts .edu forward slash charlotte.

That's rts, for Reformed Theological Seminary, dot edu forward slash charlotte. And, of course, we want to thank our friends at Crossway, who provided the books today that we were giving away. Their website is crossway .org, crossway .org.

And always remember, whenever you hear a book being addressed on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, no matter who the publisher or author is, you can always get those books from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, our sponsor, CV for Cumberland Valley, bbs for biblebookservice .com.

I want to thank you so much, Dr. Kruger, for being our guest again. I look forward to having you back, hopefully sometime in the future. You could even do a two-hour interview with us. And I want to thank you for.

Taking the time in your busy schedule to be on with us. Thanks, Chris. Had a good time and look.

Forward to doing it again. Great. And I'll be sending you an mp3 of the program sometime tonight, God willing. Fantastic. Take care. God bless you. And don't forget, you can also go to the g3conference .com website, g3conference .com for more information on the conference and to register for the conference featuring Dr. Michael J. Kruger and a number of other speakers that I had already listed for you just a little while ago.

Send the Light Conference and Joseph Jackowitz’s Testimony

Now we are heading into the second half of our program today, Joseph Jakowitz, and I hope I'm not mispronouncing that. It might be Jackowitz. I'll find out. But he is the founder of First Love Publications, and he's one of two pastors at Christ Bible Church of Dublin, California.

He's going to be discussing the Send the Light conference in Versailles, Kentucky. And if anybody would like to join us with a question on the air for Pastor Jakowitz or Jakowitz, the subject could even be a general subject on the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, unless it's about a personal and private matter.

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It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co-host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I would like to introduce you to my good friends, Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone. Since 1987, the family-owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time. That means you can get to the good stuff faster.

It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith-insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors. Their website is cvbbs .com.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. In any moment,.

We're going to be joined by our second guest today, Pastor Joseph Jakowitz, or Jackowitz, we'll find out which, who is the founder of First Love Publications and one of two pastors at Christ Bible Church of Dublin, California.

We're going to be addressing the theme, the Send the Light Conference in Versailles, Kentucky, and we're also going to be talking about general matters involving the doctrines of sovereign grace. If you would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Joe, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com.