Laboeres' Podcast- False Conversion

Truth in Love Network

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May 12, 2023

True and False Conversion. How to share the gospel with a false convert.

00:02: Welcome to The Laborer's Podcast. We are back again on another Thursday night. Thank you for watching.
00:08: Tonight we are going to be talking about Biblical conversion, true and false conversion, and how we share the gospel with a possible false convert.
00:20: We hope you will stick with us. Welcome to The Laborer's Podcast, which is a part of the
00:26: Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ.
00:34: Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.
00:42: Now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to The Laborer's Podcast.
00:55: Tyler of Bread of the Word Podcast is going to lead us tonight. He put together our podcast guide.
01:02: He's gonna be our leader tonight. I'm looking forward to his leadership. I did want to introduce you guys.
01:09: If you've been watching or listening for any amount of time, you know Pastor Jonathan from Vertical Life.
01:15: Thankful for him. Thankful for his church and the conference. Tyler of Bread of the Word. But we have a new laborer with us.
01:21: He's been with us in our chat group, on the website. He's been with us as a network, but this is his first time on the podcast.
01:32: So, welcome Jay. Thank you guys, happy to be here.
01:41: Introduce yourself just briefly. Sure. Well, I'm Jay.
01:47: I'm the Reform Recon, as most people would know me as. So, clearly
01:53: I am Puerto Rican, yes. And nothing, I mean, the Lord has been gracious to me, because I'm, you know, if you guys don't know my every day -to -day, you know, and I'm, my wife will tell you
02:08: I am a sinner. I am a sinner saved by grace. My children will tell you too.
02:14: They'll be too glad to tell you how much of, Daddy sometimes will say things and do things that he's not supposed to do.
02:21: So, but, you know, I'm thankful to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who have rescued me.
02:29: And maybe at some point I can tell you guys the whole story about that. But I'll keep it at that for now.
02:35: That way, I won't take up too much time. Just happy to be here, guys. Thank you very much for having me. Absolutely.
02:41: Tyler, I'm going to turn it over to you, brother. All right. I am honored to take the helm on this one.
02:49: When I worked, I used to work at a large sporting goods store as a,
02:54: I was part of the security team, but one of my coworkers was a cashier, and his day job was as a bank teller.
03:03: And one thing that I admired about him is that he could tell a counterfeit bill by having it in his hand.
03:10: And there was one night where he got a counterfeit $100 bill, and the customer handed it to him, and he said, there is no way this is real.
03:21: And I say that because when it comes to the things of God, oftentimes that is the stance we ought to take is, can
03:28: I hold it in my hand and know that this is real or not real? What is genuine and what is inauthentic?
03:36: And so when we talk about conversion, which is what we're talking about today, is evangelism, what it means to truly come to Christ, genuinely, authentically, actually.
03:47: We also have to recognize what it doesn't mean to come to Christ, to have a false sense of what the gospel is, who
03:55: Christ is, and why that matters. So I guess to start off with the call of the gospel, as we often see in the
04:03: New Testament, is repent and believe. So the first question, logically
04:10: I would think, is what do we mean by repent and believe? Pastor Jonathan, what does the
04:16: Bible tell us about faith? So faith is obviously the very foundation.
04:27: It is by grace through faith that we are saved, which both are, number one, a gift from God.
04:39: So I would say that's very important to recognize, is that faith is, first of all, not something that is just mustered up from within, but it is a work of God within us.
04:54: John tells us in the gospel of John that the
04:59: Father draws. No one comes except the Father draws him. And so that drawing does something in us that creates the reality in our own hearts and minds that we are sinners.
05:12: There's conviction there. There's an awakening to that. And I think initially it would create a hopelessness within us, a recognition of a lack of faith and a condemnation that is on our life because of sin, because we have sinned against God and a hopeless estate.
05:35: And I think Paul recognizes that in Romans when he describes,
05:41: I think it's in Romans 7, the things I want to do, I can't seem to do, the things
05:46: I don't want to do, I seem to continue to do. What a wretched man that I am.
05:52: And then he says, who will save me from this? And so I think that's what, first of all,
05:59: I think that's the root of faith is the recognition, the fear of God, the recognition of the condemnation and of sin.
06:06: So that seed of faith then is planted and there's a hopelessness comes there and who will save me from this wretched man that I am?
06:15: And then God does this work where Paul answers his question there in Romans 7, he says, thanks be to God, Jesus Christ.
06:23: So, so Paul doesn't say I'm going to do better. Paul doesn't say I'm going to act better. His faith then is rooted in Christ, the finished work of Christ.
06:32: And so we're talking about a biblical faith. That's, that's what we're talking about is, is the, the inability to save myself and then finding rest in the one, in the finished work of Christ, that, that, that is going to save me.
06:52: Now, faith is not a blind faith. Faith is in Hebrews chapter 11.
06:58: That's a great chapter to go look if you're watching tonight. I'd encourage you to go read Hebrews chapter 11.
07:04: Faith is the evidence of things unseen, like it's, so we don't see this work.
07:10: So, so then faith is James would say, I'm going to, it's something that actually becomes demonstrated.
07:17: And I think that's where we take the leap to repentance and we'll get there in just a second, obviously. But there's an evidence in our life of faith.
07:25: Faith is the evidence of things unseen. And so we need to remember that, that, that there's a working out of our faith.
07:34: That does not mean that works creates faith, but, but I don't think that we can separate biblically.
07:44: A genuine faith will have a genuine evidence. And so, so evidence and works is a product, not a means.
07:53: I want to make sure to restate that and reinforce that. But if there is genuine faith, there will be a works, there will be an evidence, there will be a change.
08:03: And in the root of faith, having that faith. And it really is something that, that stretches all of us.
08:12: Because there is a manner of the wheel of the person that, that, that by the work of God in us, we joyfully express our faith.
08:25: And that's why it's not robotic. It's not fatalism, this faith that God gives us.
08:31: But there is this in working that is caused by God that does create a faith that in, in a, in a joyful wheel, we receive
08:40: Christ. We put our hope and faith in Christ. We find rest in the know. And so that's why in the same chapter of Hebrews chapter 11, it says it's without faith, it is impossible to please
08:52: God. So it's, it's, there's, there is a tension in faith, even in reformed theology, there's still a tension that it's not fatalism.
09:01: I think there's a lot of people that want to argue about faith caused by God. And there is a causality there that God gets the glory for our faith.
09:09: Then if God gets the glory for our faith, then it must be something that I did of my will.
09:14: And that's not necessarily wrong, but where, what's the origination of it?
09:20: And so I would argue that faith is always a gift of God caused by God.
09:27: And then the result of that is a change of heart and me placing faith there willfully, joyfully, um, in Christ.
09:36: And in that, because of that faith, it does please God, it pleases him. And so there is, there is this tension there.
09:44: Um, last of all, I would say biblically then to expand on faith quickly.
09:51: Um, the book of Corinthians first Corinthians chapter 12 even talks about people in the body that have a unique gift of faith.
09:59: So faith is not just something that is only in the initiation of salvation by grace through faith, but it is a continuation of a gift that God gives believers.
10:11: And there is a special gift of faith that some believers have that, that is just very unique, that God gives them this ability by the power of the
10:21: Holy Spirit to, um, to have a tremendous amount of faith, um, to trust
10:26: God in very difficult circumstances. So, um, so those are all ways that I would quickly, faith.
10:33: And it's obviously a deep well, we could, we could spend the entire night talking about that one word, faith.
10:40: Uh, but I, I hope that's pretty some summarized generally where faith is.
10:47: So just to, um, condense that, uh, there was a lot packed in there.
10:52: That was great. But, uh, I guess, uh, just, just being concise, um, when we say, um, believe and repent and believe, what you're saying is that faith is a verb that it's not wishful thinking, but it's, it's acknowledgement of a reality.
11:10: That's right. That's right. And how we, how we, how we summarize, uh, faith at our church is very simple.
11:20: Uh, it's the statement, do you believe that what
11:25: Jesus did on the cross is enough? And that, and that's how we describe the most simplest form of faith, that it was absolutely enough that the cross and the resurrection was enough to save you.
11:39: Do you believe that? So it's not faith plus I'm going to do this, this, and this, and this, and then
11:46: I will be saved. It's not faith plus I'll get my life right. And then I'll say no saving faith and our definition.
11:55: And I believe I have a conviction of is, is what Jesus did on the cross enough to pay for all of your sin, all of them.
12:07: So, and if, and if the answer is yes, and it is with a sincere belief of convinced by the spirit of God that it's yes, it's enough, then
12:17: I would believe that is belief, you know, have belief.
12:23: So, well, Jay, Rob, do you have anything to add on what the
12:29: Bible does or doesn't say about faith? Um, I don't have too much to add myself.
12:35: I would just say, I think a lot of times people overthink it. You know what I mean? Like a lot of people, like, like, uh, for example, you were just saying that, um, that faith is, do you believe that what
12:47: Jesus did is enough? Right? So a lot of people will say, well, it's enough, but it's not applied to me because of whatever
12:56: I've done. Right. And so they kind of start, it's, it's just overthinking it.
13:02: You know, it's like, it's very simple. You know, do you no longer love your sin? And I guess
13:09: I'm getting into some doubts here, so I don't want to jump into that too much, but do you no longer love your sin? And do you recognize
13:15: Jesus as your only hope? And do you understand that not only is he your only hope, but he can, he is able to.
13:24: That, that, that's it. You know, like I, I just say this because I feel like maybe there are people watching who, who kind of say, well, yeah, okay.
13:34: I can see how that's faith, but, or listening, I'm sorry, people are watching or listening who might say, um,
13:41: I can see how that's faith, but, but I don't know if I have faith. And so rest assured, you know, like if you believe in Jesus Christ, if you're trusting in him, that's it.
13:54: That's faith. Now we can talk about how that all plays out and I'll defer to the rest of you guys that are much, probably much wiser than I am, but, but I just wanted to add that in there.
14:05: Don't overthink it. Amen. Oh, well, and just to add to that, um, not only not overthinking it, but, but possibly rethink this, this idea of faith, because when we, when we discuss the definition of faith and we begin to talk about what it is, what it looks like, we naturally,
14:24: I think naturally as humans, when we, when we hear that, we are still in that, in that train of thought of, okay, this is something that I'm, I'm doing,
14:36: I've got to do, I've got, I've got to transfer something in me onto that.
14:43: And that's where I'm naturally our mindset is. But as Pastor John, he was sharing with, from Hebrews chapter 11, you know, the way it describes faith there, it's a fruit.
14:56: It's the substance and it's the evidence. Faith is a fruit. So I really liked what you were saying,
15:02: Jay, that, um, you asking ourselves the question, am
15:09: I have, do I have faith? Am, am I believing? And I think instead of trying to understand the definition and, um, how do
15:19: I do that is, am I doing that? Is it evidence in my, in my life?
15:26: If it is, then Jesus has done something. Um, so we're, we're giving the credit back to him, um, getting, getting us out of that mindset of, okay, here's the definition.
15:39: Am I doing it? Am I doing it right? That's kind of where I was thinking on it. All right.
15:50: So we've established faith. So now we've got the other half, which is repent. So what does, what is biblical repentance, uh,
16:00: Pastor Jonathan? So biblical repentance, um,
16:05: I think biblical repentance, if you, and a lot of people, and, and, and I'm going to answer from, from my conviction on this one, because I think a lot of people have variations on this.
16:19: So, so you guys feel free to, to jump in on that. Um, I try to reduce repentance down to its most basic meaning first.
16:29: Um, because the basic meaning of repentance really is not dealing with sin yet.
16:37: Um, it's literally the change of mind to change your mind is the most basic fundamental.
16:44: When it says repent, it's change your mind. Now I would never ever discredit and say that repentance concerning sin like, like Jay was mentioning a second ago, it's an important question.
16:55: Do you still love your sin? Um, if you still love your sin, then I would question, have you really changed your mind?
17:01: Um, so, so for example, if a person has genuinely repented, then they're not going to no longer going to believe that their good outweighs their bad.
17:15: And by their good outweighing their bad, then they, they get to go to heaven. You know, they're no longer going to have a works based mentality.
17:24: Their mind's going to be changed to the point that they've repented from putting any confidence in themselves and any, any belief that they have any ability to save themselves.
17:35: And the only hope they have is Jesus Christ. That's the reason I started with the definition that I had earlier that when
17:43: God begins to do that work in your heart, find the first thing that happens is there's, there has to be,
17:50: I believe in my opinion, a realization of loss and a realization of hopelessness that, that a person recognizes.
18:01: And, and, and faith, I think that's why, just like you opened up very well, repent and believe or believe and repent, however you use those.
18:13: We, we, we want to get those things ordered and see how order because of how humanity works.
18:20: But it's almost like those things in the work of God are practically like synonymous simultaneous cause when faith genuinely enters, it's like the change of mind immediately happens.
18:33: I mean, it's like there, there's this like rub that, you know, a core that's bound together that you really can't dissect the two as independent actions, that there's this work of God that happens, that changes a person's mind.
18:51: And then as, as a person's mind is changed, then of course we would say, then we're going to bear fruit with that repentance, which is the repentance of sin.
19:02: There is going to be repentance of sin. There's going to be not only a change of mind, but there, and we'll get into that later, but, but there's going to be a change of action.
19:11: There's going to be a change of thought. There's going to be a change of joy. There's going to be a change in what we love. There's going to be a change in what we pursue.
19:18: There's, you know, all those kind of changes. Repentances continue to happen from that original repentance of change of mind and where I put my faith and where I find my joy.
19:30: And so one thing that I found unique to in studying just just briefly about repentance, there's a duality as well when it comes to repentance.
19:39: Number one, God grants repentance. We need to recognize that.
19:45: Paul even describes it that way. I was looking at this scripture and it was really like, oh, wow.
19:54: Acts 11, 18, it recognized that God granted the
19:59: Gentiles repentance, that this was a gift of God. Paul describes it in Timothy chapter two, verse twenty five, that that those that oppose the gospel, we need to continue to pray for them and preach the gospel to them.
20:16: And then Paul says it this way, that God may perhaps not guaranteed, but God may perhaps grant them repentance.
20:25: And of course, Hebrews describes Esau saw repentance with tears and bitterness, and there was none to be found, which is a very scary scripture when you really dig into it.
20:35: So so number one, repentance, just like faith, is a gift and a work of God.
20:41: And and so that's the first part. The second part, though, is which is kind of kind of wild.
20:49: And it shows the mind of God that is greater than the way we think. Not only is it a gift of God, but it's also a commandment of God.
20:57: We read in Acts chapter 17, verse 30, that God has commanded everyone to repent.
21:05: And so that's where you do get into the realities of election. You get into the realities of the sovereignty of God, the chosen of God, that the grace of God, the ones that God has had an effectual grace upon, do repent as a gift and they obey his command to repent.
21:25: And so but for a basic, simple definition,
21:31: I believe it is literally a changing of mind when you get into the Greek to change your mind.
21:37: Which then if you change your mind, it overall changes your direction in all things.
21:42: So I think it's interesting when you look at the response of the call to repentance in like the prophets in the
21:51: Old Testament. I love that you pointed out Acts 11, 18, because we're actually working on the first ever
21:58: Truth and Love Network, I mean, newsletter. And Big John and myself are on deck to write the first issues in that.
22:06: And I'm actually working on an article on biblical repentance right now. So I'm pretty sure that's in there.
22:14: But but when you look at like Jonah, when
22:19: Jonah proclaimed to the people of Nineveh, yet 40 days and Nineveh shall be overtaken.
22:26: It says that the king of Nineveh, when he heard this, he tore his clothes, put on sackcloth.
22:32: I believe he shaved his head and he sat in ashes. You see, likewise, in other spots, you see practices of mourning.
22:43: Associated with repentance, with that, that change of heart that Jonathan was just talking about, that this is serious.
22:50: This has weight. And when we read about fasting and stuff, oftentimes it is a practice of mourning that we are, in a sense, mourning how sinful we are and how much we are desperately in need of a savior.
23:06: And we could, we could just ponder that the rest of our lives, we don't.
23:13: We don't mourn enough sometimes. Oh, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death.
23:21: Yeah. Someone else. It's interesting that you bring up the emotions, especially from the
23:29: Proverbs there, because a lot of times I think we get a bad rap, but I think it's sometimes as reformed guys, it's it's true of us sometimes that the fact that we're we're accused of being emotionless, we're all academic and we're all about knowledge and we're emotionless.
23:53: And then there's the other ditch of being emotional. But what we're talking about tonight, what
23:58: Jonathan shared with us and then what you immediately shared with us and put those two together, it shows the true biblical what the true biblical pattern looks like in our lives.
24:09: Knowledge of God is going to bring forth and erupt emotion within us.
24:16: And so that's exactly what you're talking about, Tyler. Repentance or that change of mind that Jonathan was talking about is is going to bring forth that mourning.
24:27: And then that faith is going to bring forth joy that we have in Christ, that we've been forgiven and then we can live.
24:36: We now have the ability through him and by him to. Turn away from it and do and obey him and do what's right.
24:44: So that's a great balance that you guys brought. I love it. I think for me, you know, and this is something
24:53: I reflect on often, you know, especially when I catch myself because, you know, we we're still
25:00: Roman seven, you know, we're still battling against this body of death, right? Against the law of sin.
25:08: And for me, something I reflect on often is Psalm 51. Psalm 51 for me is is one of my favorite songs because it lays out.
25:20: It's almost like whoever, you know, who when when this psalm was written, it's like they were reading my mind, you know, because, you know, from the beginning, it says, have mercy on me,
25:32: O God, according to your steadfast love, according to your abundant mercy, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin.
25:41: This person, right? And I believe Psalm 51 was by David. So David, you know, he was broken.
25:51: He was broken. I mean, it's not just a lot of people think that repentance is just, well,
25:59: I don't want to go to hell. So I'm going to follow Jesus. It's good to fear hell.
26:05: You know that I would say that the fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom. And part of that is fearing hell because God's wrath is unleashed in hell.
26:15: But it doesn't just stop there, right? The Bible says that it's the beginning of wisdom.
26:21: But ultimately, you are led somewhere where you realize that the death and severity of your sin, not just in how it affects you, but in how it has affected other people and how it offends a holy and perfect God.
26:39: And you're broken over that, you know, you're absolutely broken over it. And I've realized that as you grow in Christ, maybe it's not for you guys, maybe it's not this way.
26:51: But for me, things that maybe weren't a big deal to me before, now, you know, it's like the most minute thing.
26:59: I'm like, Lord, how could I have sinned against you in such a way? And yeah,
27:06: I mean, absolutely. Yeah, Manny Jones, you're absolutely right. The Lord breaks his elect and it's a place of brokenness.
27:16: That leads you to, like the prodigal son, Father, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son and you find mercy there.
27:29: And I just want to just help us know that every person, what happens a lot of times, we will make our experience the standard.
27:51: So, for example, is it possible for a 10 -year -old child to genuinely repent and believe?
28:04: Of course it is. And the emotion and the repentance of a 10 -year -old child who we at least hope, praise the
28:16: Lord, has been spared from grievous sin may look very different from a guy that God breaks him down when he's 25 or 30.
28:29: That's true. And so the only caution that I have for us is you're exactly right.
28:36: And that there is emotion, there's a reality, but a lot of times that emotion and reality and the fruit bearing, keeping with repentance, the emotion that is attached with that becomes deeper involved, deeper as we understand our own depravity and the grace of God.
28:59: That's where that emotion is produced. So I just caution people sometimes that there can be a genuine repentance and there can be a turning to Christ with a childlike faith that may not be weeping and wailing, but it can be very genuine.
29:22: It could actually be very joyful. It could be, as Paul wrote, that some come by fear.
29:31: So coming by fear, there could be a sermon on hell and the eternal judgment of God and a child hear that sermon, not manipulatively, but genuinely because I'm preaching even this
29:45: Sunday on the narrow way. There's only one way and those who try to come through any other door, the door is closed and there's no other way to come in.
29:57: So there's going to be people there Sunday that's going to hear the gospel and they may not come weeping.
30:03: They may come joyfully because at least there's a way, you know, at least there's a way.
30:11: So again, the fruit that comes out of every person's repentance may look very different.
30:18: There are those that David was confronted of his sin with Bathsheba, you know, he laid on his face and repented.
30:28: So but that's the product that the repentance happened before the product. And so I think a lot of times in Christianity, we make the product the standard.
30:39: That's why I went back. That's why I tried to make a very basic definition. Repentance is not the product.
30:46: It's not the emotion. It's not what happens after the change of mind, but there will be an evidence.
30:53: There was going to be something that comes out and I think that's where the other extreme swings. But in its basic form, the gift of God to repent is to change our mind about all of these things and turn to the ways of God, change from the way
31:09: I think and turn to the way God thinks. And then as a result, there's going to be a lot of stuff coming out.
31:19: I think Christians should be tremendously more emotional and I think I am more emotional now than I was the day
31:31: I was born again. And the reason is I have a deeper understanding of the gospel today than I did, you know, when
31:39: I was a 19 year old kid, you know. So does that make sense? And so I just that feeds us into the next question, you know, though.
31:48: It does. It does. To these extremes. But Jonathan's good at doing that, leading us right into the next question.
31:54: But I think what you said, Jonathan, was beautiful, though, because sometimes we are tempted to say, hey, your repentance doesn't look like mine.
32:03: But then we fail to remember the spirit blows where he wants to and how he wants to. And so it's him doing the work.
32:10: But what you're saying is also applicable to our growth and knowledge, our sanctification, all those things.
32:18: His work and somebody else's are going to look different than mine. So in light of that, last week we had talked a little bit about gospel extremes with legalism and easy believism.
32:34: And I think it might be safe to say that each of those represents a skewed view of either repent or believe that you've got legalism that leans really hard into repent as almost like a moralistic approach.
32:47: But then you've got easy believism that really centers on faith and more so sometimes kind of devolves into more of that wishful thinking as opposed to acknowledgement of a reality.
33:03: So in light of these two extremes that seem to be missing an ingredient each, how might we find the middle ground between those two extremes?
33:20: You want to call on somebody or? I mean, well, easy believism, you have a lot of people from that camp and who believe this, who don't really don't really expect or I guess you could say require any change.
33:44: It's almost like Jesus died for my sins. Cool. Great. You know, I'll keep on going and I will keep on doing what
33:51: I'm doing. That's not repentance. That's just what people seek.
34:01: You know, the Bible says that none seek after God, right? And when
34:07: I've had people ask me, well, how do you reconcile that with people who are searching?
34:13: And I say, a lot of people are searching for assurance that they're going to be okay, that God's perfectly happy with them.
34:21: But as soon as they hear, hey, you need to repent of your sin, you need to turn away. It's like the rich young young man, you know, who came to Jesus and basically they went through the
34:31: Ten Commandments and the rich young ruler said, yeah, I've kept all of them. He was looking for Jesus to basically say, hey, you've got eternal life.
34:41: Jesus didn't give him that. What Jesus said is, one more thing that you have to do is sell everything you have and follow me.
34:49: And he went away sad because he had great wealth. And that just shows that what he was really looking for wasn't a change.
35:01: He wasn't really looking for eternal life per se. He was just trying to have this false sense of security.
35:07: And we'll talk about that later. And I think that's what happens with a lot of what easy -believism is about.
35:15: On the other side of things, right, the other side of the coin, you have legalism, where there's an overemphasis in obeying everything that God has to say and more, right?
35:31: It's not just love your neighbor as yourself. It's not just, you know, if you love me, you will keep my commandments.
35:39: It's essentially what the Pharisees had done. They were adding rules. They were adding requirements that God had not given.
35:48: And there's really a lack of grace sometimes on the legalism side of things.
35:57: And so how we reconcile those two, we're human beings and we're never going to get it perfect.
36:05: I think sometimes we're going to lean a little bit more legalistic than we should, and sometimes we're going to lean a little bit more, you know,
36:12: I guess you could say easy -believism than we should. But we should remember that, yes, we are called to repent and believe and to obey
36:21: God. But at the same time, we also are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone.
36:28: And so, you know, I don't know if maybe you guys can say something additional to this, but I would say for me, it's a lifelong learning process, right?
36:43: That's what happens through sanctification. So, I don't know. What do you guys think about that? Well, Jacob had a question building off of what you were saying,
36:52: Jay. And he said, do you think Arminianism, pragmatism, and a wrong view of man's quote, free will are some of the big contributing factors to easy -believism?
37:05: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think so. You'll rarely find somebody from the
37:11: Calvinistic side of things saying that they're on board for easy -believism.
37:18: And so, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm not trying to put anybody under the bus, but, like,
37:25: I remember, like, Billy Graham, right? And Billy Graham, I remember him saying something along the lines of, there's not an exact quote, so don't quote me.
37:36: But he said, I hope that maybe just 3 % of the people that, you know, raised their hands and repented actually did.
37:47: And I think what he was alluding to was the fact that sometimes the message can be misconstrued, and we often forget
37:57: James 2, right, where faith without works is dead, and we just kind of look into that all grace, you know, free grace theology kind of thing.
38:08: And that definitely comes from the Arminian, you know, sort of pragmatist side of things where it's just like, hey, just believe.
38:16: It's that simple. Well, even the demons believe. So... I would just say this.
38:24: In both those circumstances, you are not looking to Jesus, but you're looking to yourself.
38:31: So on the legalism side, you're looking to see what you need to do to earn or gain salvation, even though mentally you may not be thinking that that's what you're doing.
38:42: So you're looking to yourself. On the easy -believerism side, you're looking to yourself for what you can get out of it, and then you've got it, and then therefore you can live however you want to live.
38:53: But in both cases, you're not looking to Jesus. I think if you want to find the middle ground or the biblical ground, you're going to look to Jesus in both circumstances, and you're going to see
39:04: He did it all. He did all the work. He gets all the glory.
39:09: And then on the easy -believerism side, it's not easy. It cost
39:14: Him His life. We're dead in our trespasses and sin. Somebody's got to make us alive, and then we're called to die to our sins, die to ourselves, and take up our cross and follow
39:25: Him daily. And so, in both circumstances, I would say, look to Jesus and not ourselves.
39:34: Mm -hmm. So what I'm hearing... I'm sorry. Sorry. No, you're good. I'd just like to make two statements on it, though, too.
39:41: So number one, the motive to the methodology is very important.
39:52: I grew up in easy -believerism methodology as a
39:57: Southern Baptist, okay? And there was youth camps and all this kind of stuff.
40:04: Bow your head. Close your eyes. You know, repeat after me. If you've said this prayer, raise your hand.
40:12: We want to talk to you right after. You know, then come fill out this card, and then, hopelessly, you're saved.
40:19: You're born again. So that's what I was raised in, and I had very good friends that were on the legalism side that was like...
40:27: So, but the methodology is driven by motive. And on both sides of the extremes,
40:36: I don't think the motive was necessarily wrong, because the motive was, we want to get people saved, and we want to keep them saved.
40:46: Right. So one side appeals exactly like you said, Robert. The easy -believerism side appeals to narcissism, to self -centeredness.
40:58: The legalism side appeals to, we're going to scare people into, we're going to keep them so jostled up that they might lose their salvation.
41:10: We're going to keep them, that it's going to keep them saved and keep them holy, you know, that's in the holiness movement.
41:16: So, but I think genuinely the motive was, we want people to follow
41:23: Jesus. So this one, so the easy -believerism did what they were saying. Let's make it as easy as possible for them to get a little toe in the water.
41:32: And the legalism side is, we're going to scare them to death so that they'll follow Jesus. And so, again,
41:39: I try to give some credit to some of these guys. At least, I think they're, not all, by the way, but that there's a lot that their motives really were right.
41:50: But here's the sin on both of those sides. And you're wanting to know what the middle ground is.
41:57: The middle ground, the healthy biblical ground, is that we believe in the sufficiency of the gospel and the power of God to save.
42:09: So on both extremes, it's by man's effort. On easy -believism, it's,
42:17: I have to perform and manipulate. And so, and then on the legalism side,
42:25: I'm performing and manipulating. So on both sides, it takes manipulation to cause that.
42:33: But the healthy middle ground is, it doesn't require any manipulation. The healthy biblical perspective, and it's really not a middle ground.
42:42: It's the ground of biblical principle is, we preach the gospel and we believe in the sufficiency of the clarity of the gospel.
42:51: And we believe in the power of God to save, that He is still mighty to save.
42:57: So sufficiency and supremacy are the biblical principles in the proclamation of the gospel.
43:06: That the gospel is enough. I don't have to, I don't have to like scare people to death with legalism.
43:13: And I don't have to make it like silly and easy. I just proclaim the whole counsel of the gospel.
43:19: It's enough. It's sufficient. And then the supremacy of God is, He knows how to convict.
43:25: He knows how to regenerate. He knows how to convert. He knows how to draw. He knows how to cause faith. He knows how to cause repentancy.
43:31: God knows how to do that in the hearts and minds of people by the preaching of the gospel. And so they don't have to repeat after me.
43:38: They don't have to, that I don't have to drive them. That God does what God does as a good father.
43:44: And so that's what I'm trying to say, I think, is the biblical methodology. And I think we find that those principles all throughout, especially, you know, in the descriptive things in the book of Acts.
43:57: You don't see any of those guys. You don't see Philip going to Samaria and saying, repeat after me.
44:04: Or you don't see Philip going to Samaria and saying, hey, you know, you better do these things or you're going to lose it, you know, or you'll never get it.
44:15: Basically, Philip went and preached Christ. And then the Holy Spirit does what the
44:20: Holy Spirit does. And people get saved left and right, you know, and that's it.
44:27: You know, they were believing and they were repenting. So anyways, I just wanted to undergird what you guys were already saying.
44:37: And it's beautiful to watch, by the way. It frees you in your evangelism. It frees you even in the scary things of like, people's like, you guys still go door -to -door?
44:48: Absolutely, we do. We cold turkey knock on people's doors. They open the door.
44:54: We say, how can we pray for you, you know, and all of a sudden all kinds of spiritual matters begin to come out.
45:01: And what solutions do you have? And say, well, let us tell you about the good news of Jesus. And then just watch
45:08: God do what God does. And I have no problem if someone says, well, what
45:15: I got to do to be saved? I'll say, well, then call on the Lord and be saved. Well, how do I do that? Well, why don't you just pray?
45:21: Me and you, we'll sit down right here. Why don't you just pray what God right now is dealing with your heart about?
45:27: And I've yet to have anyone say, well, will you lead me? Can I repeat after you?
45:32: If God's really at work, then it's beautiful to watch people pray things like,
45:38: I know that I have sinned against you and I need to stay here. So would you please save me?
45:46: Best sinner's prayer ever, right? And I've yet to have anybody say, I need to repeat after you.
45:53: You know what I mean? So do sinners pray? Absolutely. And will people that are born again bear fruit with repentance?
46:02: Absolutely. And where does all that come from? The sufficiency of the gospel and the supremacy of God. So what
46:08: I'm hearing from all three of you is we have law and we have gospel and they're not in opposition.
46:14: They're not extremes, but they're two halves of one whole. But essentially, this is the whole heart of Christ for his people.
46:26: Hey, Tyler, let me give a shout out to your live chat room on Rumble. Chugs145purple, they're saying, come repentant with humility without self -righteousness, knowing that there are no works sufficient for salvation.
46:43: Only through grace, faith in Christ, and the mercy of the loving God are we saved. A transformed heart, no longer a slave to sin, but a servant of God's righteousness, desiring to glorify
46:54: God. Not perfected, but salvation assured through Christ. Hey, Chugs, thanks for tuning in.
47:03: And all you guys that are commenting, thank you guys very much. Love it. So we've grappled with what conversion is.
47:13: So now to take a page out of Pastor Jonathan's book, how do we put legs on this?
47:19: How do we put this in application now? What deceptions are there that would produce a false conversion?
47:27: We've talked a little bit about that, but more, I guess, definitively now. Ray, you want to kick us off?
47:38: Jay? Oh, I'm sorry. Did you call me? I thought you said Ray. I keep calling you Ray. I'm sorry. I was like...
47:43: I keep going for Ray, but with foreign reeking. You know, I was like, is there a guy in here named
47:50: Ray that I don't know about? I'm sorry. No, you're good.
47:55: You're good. You're good. That was funny. Well, you know, I would say one of the biggest things, probably not the only thing, but one of the biggest things is an emotionalism that is grounded on nothing.
48:08: Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I'm not saying emotionalism is bad. We were talking about this already. But I remember, and I don't remember if this was on Facebook or where somebody posted a picture of this girl writing a story about how she used to be in the church.
48:30: And, you know, they would have this amazing performance, right, by the worship band.
48:37: And there was smoke and lights everywhere. And it was great. And she could really feel the Holy Spirit. And then she went to a
48:43: One Direction concert, and she felt the same thing. And that's when she realized she wasn't a Christian. And I think that's what happens a lot, a lot nowadays, with a lot of people who profess
48:57: Christ. I think that it's just emotionalism, not grounded in truth, not grounded in anything other than simply their own emotions.
49:06: And so, you know, that's dangerous, not only because you're not really in Christ, but the problem is, what if you feel depressed tomorrow?
49:18: What if you feel angry? Or what if you feel, you know, fill in the blank?
49:24: Why art thou cast down, O my soul? Correct, exactly. And so, we have to understand, you know,
49:33: I'll let you much wiser and respectfully older men. I am younger than you.
49:40: Well, that's true. That's true. But I'm not deferring to you. I'm just, you're hosting. So I'm having these other two gentlemen go ahead and lead the charge here.
49:50: But what I would say is, you can be depressed and be in Christ.
49:58: You can be angry and be in Christ. Don't sin. But your emotions are not what define your standing with Jesus Christ.
50:12: It's a simple, and I'm not ease of believism, but it's as simple as, do you trust in the sufficiency of Christ's atoning work at the cross?
50:26: That's what defines it. So even on your worst day or on your best day, it is well with your soul.
50:35: Amen. So, yeah, yeah. Emotionalism is definitely probably one of the biggest ones.
50:42: I think you were going down the same path that I was going to go down answering this question because you're talking about trusting in your emotions.
50:52: In this circumstance, people will trust, will have faith in their faith. They will try to find comfort in how much faith they have or that they, you know, they have faith or they have faith in Christ.
51:07: It's just putting faith in faith or if you're in the Bible Belt where some of us are, you know,
51:13: I did that. I wrote my name in the Bible and my pastor told me not to, you know, doubt it.
51:22: I got baptized, you know, such and such day so many years ago.
51:28: They'll put their faith in their baptism. They'll put their faith in a prayer that they prayed or signing a card.
51:34: They'll just they'll find those different things to put their faith in apart from Christ and resting in that.
51:42: I think this has to also I would say these these false conversion things.
51:49: I think it's a journey just to be honest. If you were to if you were to look at my life personally,
51:58: I've been saved at least three times that I know of. Okay, and I say that facetiously and also genuinely because there was a time when
52:12: I was like seven years old that I was in the middle of church service and walk down the aisle and said a prayer because I didn't want to go to hell.
52:24: And then then I watched a movie at church on the rapture and was scared to death that I was going to be left behind Robert, you know, and so so anyway, so then
52:36: I'd lay in bed at night and plead with God, you know, if I didn't mean it if I when
52:41: I said the prayer the first time if I didn't mean it, then I mean it now Lord. I really really mean it, you know, and and and no one was malicious in it or on or I don't think intentional in it.
52:55: They were preaching what they knew. I really believe that but there's a lot of bad theology. And and the preaching of again going back to the easy believism or the legalism side that preaching is not teaching people on either side to enter into the rest of Christ the finished work of Christ.
53:17: And so in other words, it is preaching a self -sufficiency that I have to see what
53:23: I actually did. Did I did I really repent or not? And so it goes back to what you're saying
53:28: Jay that I think false conversion and Robert was saying the same thing.
53:35: It's a really important thing to ask the question. Why did I put my faith in but here's the unique thing a person that and I say this carefully.
53:49: I would say that a person that is a non -elect would never even ask these questions. So so take heart for those of you that are listening.
54:03: I think somehow in the mind of a person we want to somehow make sure we did the right steps in order to be secure in our
54:13: Salvation. So take heart because it has nothing to do with the steps that you took has absolutely nothing to do with it.
54:24: Is everything to do with the steps that God took his son, right? So so if you're asking the question tonight, if you hear your hear this podcast and you're asking about a false convert in the mind of God, I would ask this in the upper story in the mind of God.
54:45: Is there even such a thing as a false convert or is it only those that are still in process of conversion that that's a that's the question that I don't know that we can answer in this moment, but for those that I mean we were saved before the foundations of the world and Ephesians 2 were already seated in heavenly places with him.
55:05: So so I think this is a very difficult question that we have to be very handle very gently because we don't want to diminish the sovereignty of God the work of God because there are those that really genuinely
55:17: God began to work with them in easy believism or he began to work with him in legalism or he began this work in them through some random way and and they're still in process.
55:29: So I'm not necessarily going to immediately call him a false convert because in my two or three experiences through my childhood that I was scared to death that I didn't do the right thing.
55:40: I didn't enter into rest till I was 19 years old when I realized that really my faith was in my good works and my rule following and my legalism that gave me confidence of my salvation more than the finished work of Christ.
55:56: And so people ask me when did you get saved and sometimes it's like, you know what? It's really hard for me to answer because I can see the process and the journey because I don't know ever a time that I didn't believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sin and rose from the dead.
56:12: That's the home that I was raised in and I always believed that but I was being taught that there's something added to that.
56:21: So I would say I was converted like when we were talking about the other day about the conversation of when
56:27: Jesus told Peter, when you're converted, you know, feed my sheep. So does
56:35: Peter say before that because he'd already confessed Christ. You're the Christ. It's not living God will know this wasn't revealed to you by flesh and blood.
56:43: This is revealed to you by a gift of God. So Peter's already confessed. He's the Christ. Is that enough for Peter to be saved?
56:50: And so in the end after that journey, Peter's still denying him. There's still all these kind of things.
56:56: But eventually though Peter gets to the point that's like, you know what? I'm resting in this and I'm preaching this and I'm laid my hand to the plow and I'm not looking back.
57:06: Yeah. So at what point was Peter genuinely saved if he had died in the midst of that journey? What would have happened to him?
57:13: Well, the sovereignty of God is very clear where he began a good work. He will finish it. Amen.
57:19: Stop. So that's all I'm trying to say is I think it's very important in false conversion. I think we have to be very careful not to look at somebody and say that's a false convert.
57:30: Yeah, sometimes you don't know guys. I mean, honestly, so what you do is you go right back and you preach the whole council of the gospel to them and let
57:40: God work it out. So Philippians 2 12 work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
57:46: I think it's working out not working for and sometimes that versus very confuses people. But it's like if God's doing this work in you then work it out, you know, begin just keep working it out.
57:58: And I think Martin Luther said it best. If I look to myself, I don't know how
58:03: I could be saved. But if I look to Christ, I don't know how I could be lost. There you go. That's right.
58:09: There's there's you know, we can look at versus like I think it's first John 2 19 that went out from us that they that it might be shown that there are never of us and that can be tempting to for us for those of us that maybe are not so much worried about whether I'm saved or not right now, right?
58:26: But maybe we're looking at you know, there's a brother at church that I don't know, you know, is he saved?
58:35: And to some extent. Yeah. I mean, we have to be concerned about that, but but it's not our final call to make right and I think that's important to to make a note of as well because on the one hand, it will be shown right who was actually truly converted or not.
58:55: But what are we supposed to do in light of that? Well preach the gospel to them, right, you know, and and if the person so if it's shown that they're not converted, you know what to do.
59:07: And if you're not sure if they're converted, you also know what to do. Right, which is restore the brother, right?
59:13: If they're sinning, if they're living in an unrepentant sin, restore that brother. So regardless of whether they are saved or not, it's not really my concern.
59:22: My concern is for the spiritual well -being of that person. What God will do,
59:28: God will do through my words, through my actions. Sure, but it's God's work.
59:34: And so it's not up to me and it really takes the pressure off of all of us, you know, to not worry so much about whether a person is truly converted or not.
59:45: It's just tell them, look, thus says the Lord. That's right. Repent and believe. That's it. That's it.
59:50: That's our job, not to condemn, not to make any final conclusions about somebody.
59:57: So I think it's important to, sorry, Robert. I think it's important to say that in a pastoral role,
01:00:06: I try to be very careful not to define someone's process.
01:00:14: So just in an additional question, if a person comes to you and says, hey, I made a profession of faith when
01:00:21: I was young. I have been baptized. You know what? I really did not know the gospel then, but now
01:00:28: I do and I believe I want to be baptized again to demonstrate a genuine faith.
01:00:34: How do you guys handle that? Well, they didn't.
01:00:40: I mean, they just got wet the first time. If, I mean, if that's genuinely the process and this time is, you know, a genuine conversion, you know, but then,
01:00:54: I mean, baptism for us, Baptist is just a symbol, a sign, a pointing to anyway.
01:01:02: So to some degree that ceremony pointed to Christ, but it,
01:01:10: I'm going to have to, I'll have to think through that some more because, I mean, that first, first answer that I gave you just kind of the initial answer, you know, they get, they just got wet the first time.
01:01:22: Well, for us Baptists, it doesn't, baptism really doesn't do anything to them anyway, other than it's an act of obedience.
01:01:31: They're there. It's a fruit of their salvation. So it's a good question.
01:01:38: So personally, I'm baptized them every time. Okay. That's just my, honestly, my, my, my response.
01:01:47: But if this is the third or fourth or fifth time in a year, then I'm like, hold on, let's, let's get a timeout.
01:01:54: What I'm saying? No, really? And no, we wouldn't. I guess my point is, a lot of folks have come to pastors and said, hey, this is my experience.
01:02:04: Then that pastor tells them, no, you don't need to be baptized again. You were just a little bit confused and now you've just rededicated your life.
01:02:12: So, so my point of bringing that up is never belittle someone's testimony when they're in journey, because there is a point that God, as he works, there's a light bulb that clicks, that a person really does have a security in their salvation, that there will be a place of maturity.
01:02:29: And, and I don't tell people they weren't saved before that place of maturity, you know, but there, there's a place where we should give room for people to that, that's in journey, you know, and, and, and in process there.
01:02:45: So I have no problem in baptizing someone who has a conviction that, hey, I thought this is what
01:02:51: I was doing back in the day. I realized that God has revealed to me, you know, that I had really not put faith in the finished work of Christ and the gospel.
01:03:04: Um, but now I have, and I desire to get the believer's baptism to demonstrate a genuine faith.
01:03:11: I don't withhold that from them. I don't try to say, oh, this is just a rededication or that kind of stuff.
01:03:18: You know, I think it's a semantics issue. Um, but my whole point is, um,
01:03:24: I think pastorally again, it is trusting in the sufficiency of God's work in his children, um, in the supremacy of Christ and God over his family of bringing people to a genuine faith,
01:03:40: I think is extremely important to have that we as leaders have to have that faith that God does it.
01:03:47: So just to expand on the question a little bit, I'd like to ask you guys two quick questions if I could, um, and it would help me personally, hopefully it helps somebody else.
01:03:57: But the first one is I think we've been biblically spot on as far as like you were saying,
01:04:03: Jonathan, not, um, not looking down or taking lightly somebody else's process or where they are or how the
01:04:12: Holy spirit is working in their life. I think we've been spot on in that. However, is there something that is consistent with all believers?
01:04:21: We can say, okay, look for this. And we can say that to every
01:04:28: Christian. Look, look for this. It's going to be different in this area in this area.
01:04:34: This is for every single person, but look for this. Is there that one thing
01:04:39: I'll give? I can give you one example immediately. So, uh, Jay was referencing first John earlier.
01:04:49: Uh, so now we're, now we're looking, and this is a strong word in the day and time we live, but now we're looking how to judge someone and we don't judge outside the body, but we do make judgments inside the body.
01:05:03: Uh, we root inspect, we do those kinds of things. And so first John, um,
01:05:10: I, I nickname it the to know book. If you really want to know if you're saved first,
01:05:15: John like gives tons of metrics, tons of measuring sticks that says, if you are in God, then this will be there.
01:05:26: It's like, for example, first John chapter three, verse nine. I looked it up before we even started. Uh, let me read it to you.
01:05:32: It says this, no one born of God makes a practice of sinning for God's seed abides in him and he cannot keep on sinning because he's been born of God.
01:05:48: So there it is. Like, like if you are born again, born of God, the seed of God is in you.
01:05:54: It doesn't mean it's impossible to sin, but those sins are not going to continue to be a practice.
01:06:00: So that's, that's like one example of, of today. The, a foolish statement is that a person can continue in a homosexual lifestyle, but yet, because they say they had something before, but now
01:06:14: I'm going to continue in this thing that is against God. Then we would have to say any man that says that first John says he's a liar and the truth is not in him.
01:06:26: So, because first John chapter three, verse nine says any man that is born of God doesn't keep practicing those things.
01:06:35: It doesn't mean there's not struggle. It doesn't mean there's not failure. It doesn't mean there's not even sin that I can sin, but, but the evidence and not, not the means of salvation again, but, but we can make a judgment call.
01:06:50: If a person is born again, at the moment that he's born again, he's an alcoholic. Okay. And is it possible for someone who loves alcohol to be born again?
01:07:01: And the answer is yes. Is it possible that at that moment of being born again, that alcoholism immediately completely leaves his life and God redeems him and sanctifies him immediately where he even hates alcohol?
01:07:15: Yes, it's possible. But my question is, is that normal? And I would say in my experience, the reality is it's not normal.
01:07:25: The reality is this person gets saved and gets born again. But now there's this law of sin that is attached in his flesh and he's going to be going through detox and he's going to be going through breaking of habits and all that kind of stuff.
01:07:38: And so does that mean he never will get drunk again? Probably not. But does that mean he's going to hate that sin?
01:07:45: And now the practice of his life is to fight against that sin. And, and there's going to be a sanctification that over the next years of his life, he's not going to be a constant drunk over the next years of his life.
01:07:59: That sin is going to be eradicated from his life. And how long that takes? God knows.
01:08:05: But the evidence of his genuine conversion will be that he's not going to make a practice of being alcoholic.
01:08:11: Does that make sense? So he's not going to be a practicing homosexual. He's not going to be a practicing lover of pornography or whatever, whatever those fleshly sins are.
01:08:22: So, yeah, there's a bunch, Robert. And that's just one example. Does that make sense? Anyone that says he hates his brother.
01:08:29: First John says anyone that says he hates his brother, but yet says he's a Christian or that he's in God, a liar.
01:08:37: And the truth is not in it. You're not going to harbor hate for the brotherhood. You're going to repent of that.
01:08:43: And that's going to be sanctified in your life. So, so the immediate answer is there's not just one.
01:08:49: There's many things that First John says that if you are genuinely converted, then, yep, here it is.
01:08:57: Here's an evidence of it. The danger in that is though, people will say, well, then
01:09:03: I got to do better in this area in your life. And so, so, so should they? Yes, they should.
01:09:10: But in their mind, sometimes it's misconstrued because they're going to say, okay, I'm going to do better in this life. And so since I'm doing better in this area now, now
01:09:17: I'm saved. Now I know I'm saved because I'm doing better. How do you get better?
01:09:22: You just keep preaching the gospel to them. You confront them in their sin and you keep preaching the gospel where they become more dependent on the gospel.
01:09:29: And then the Holy Spirit will be sanctified on them. But yes, there is judgment in this that we make as leaders and shepherds.
01:09:38: And yes, there is very real evidence of salvation. So would you consider conviction and repentance one of those signs?
01:09:46: Because I was just reflecting on my own life. And of course, and I have been apt to sin, you know, since my salvation.
01:09:56: Of course. But looking back, I could always, I've always seen that, that the spirit has led me to be convicted and having a desire to repent.
01:10:09: And I thank God that I see that evidence in my life.
01:10:18: Well, the other question was, as we, as we're running out of time, so I think you're spot on,
01:10:27: Jay, what you were saying earlier, and I would say the same thing about we, we know what to do if, if we suspect a false conversion, you know, preach the gospel, preach the gospel to ourselves, preach the gospel to a false convert, but really, really, really practically where the rubber meets the road when we have a, when we have a child in our home.
01:10:56: Pastorally, what do we say to a parent with a child that professed
01:11:02: Christ, but now lives in such a way that we would believe to be contrary to Scripture?
01:11:16: How do we, how do we handle one of our children? Are you asking what you say to somebody in a situation like that, or how do we personally deal with it with, with our own children?
01:11:32: Well, we'll both and, you know, how would we pastorally counsel a parent to, to speak to their child, deal with their child that once professed
01:11:42: Christ, but we believe acting, acting consistently against Scripture, a lifestyle.
01:11:50: Okay. Well, I think one thing that you can say to somebody, and I had a friend who's kind of in a similar situation as to what you're describing.
01:12:03: I said, your, your kid's story is not over. God's not done with him yet.
01:12:09: So you can't, you can't just throw up your hands and just say, well, that's it. I failed. First of all, it's not up to you.
01:12:17: I mean, you know, the Lord does expect you to be faithful and train up a child in the way that he should go.
01:12:24: You should be teaching that child the way that, that the
01:12:30: Bible says we ought to live the way you ought to repent and believe all of that is true. And, and God works through means.
01:12:38: And so I do believe ordinarily God will save children of, of Christians.
01:12:46: Not always, but ordinarily, I mean, it is one of the ordinary means of grace. And, you know, we might disagree on that a little bit, depending on how, you know, what perspective in Reformed theology or even outside of that you may have.
01:12:59: But, but regardless, it is our job to, to be faithful, but it is not up to us.
01:13:07: Now, why did God put that child in your life? Well, that remains to be seen, but I don't think that God elects arbitrarily, right?
01:13:19: Like, like, well, I'm just going to put somebody in, in the Middle East and I'll save them over there.
01:13:25: And then I'm just going to put somebody in America and then we'll save them over there. And no, like there's a reason why you have the children that you do.
01:13:31: And so that, that kid's story is not over. Even at 28, 29, 30 years old, you don't know what's going to happen.
01:13:43: So I would say, trust in God, right? Trust in God and be patient because you don't know what the
01:13:53: Lord's going to do. But even if he doesn't save your child, you know, ultimately you're going to have to still trust in God, right?
01:14:01: Like that, it really, that's what it comes down to and know that regardless of what the outcome may be, that you as, as somebody that's faithful to Christ, somebody who has trust in Christ, God is going to work all things together for the good of those who love him.
01:14:20: And so even when we can't make sense of it, just hold on to him. You know, I love how Paul Washer says that he wrestles with God.
01:14:28: You know, he just holds on to him and says, I will not let you go until you bless me. I will not let you go until you bless me.
01:14:38: We don't get to tell God what to do, but we do get to call him father by his grace.
01:14:45: And so hold on to your father. He's good. So me personally, that's how
01:14:53: I would encourage a brother who is struggling with a seemingly unrepentant child that maybe profess
01:14:59: Christ in some way or at some point. The other thing is because their story is not over, keep looking for opportunities to share with them the gospel and keep loving them.
01:15:10: Don't just X them out. Don't just, you know, push them away. You know, you got the story of the man in 1
01:15:19: Corinthians who was sleeping with his father's wife and they were able to restore him by the time you get around to 2
01:15:27: Corinthians. There needs to be a degree of separation, right? Like we're not going to condone everything you're doing.
01:15:34: But at the same time, we're here to still love you, to still try to restore you, to still preach the gospel to you because we always have to hold on to that hope, right?
01:15:45: And so it's hard for us as humans to hold on to hope when we see so many people leaving the faith, when we see so many people just rejecting
01:15:51: Christ. But I'm post -millennial. I'm not trying to bring eschatology into this.
01:15:57: But I have patience, right? Because just because things aren't the way that I would like them to be now doesn't mean that God can't do a mighty work at any moment that he wants.
01:16:07: And so I rest in that. And so people should be resting in that when they're dealing with anybody, whether it's their children or whoever.
01:16:16: Just be faithful, preach the gospel, and trust in God. That's good.
01:16:24: I think the most dangerous thing, too, is a lot of times parents are afraid to be confrontational with their children in this day and time.
01:16:36: And then the Bible gives us very clear instruction on the discipline of our children.
01:16:44: So as parents, we do have a responsibility to confront and to discipline when sin is there.
01:16:52: And I think today parents want to be friends rather than parents.
01:16:58: And so I would just give the advice to have confidence in what the
01:17:05: Bible has commanded for parents to do in raising of children. Fathers should not provoke their children to wrath, but definitely should not spare the rod or you ruin the child's life.
01:17:18: And so if a child is found in practicing of sin, there is a biblical methodology to do that.
01:17:26: And we literally have a lot of stories. One friend of ours that Robert and I have together, his son was in grievous sin.
01:17:41: And he literally to the point after confronting and confronting and pleading and disciplining, literally got to the point that he told him to pack his bag, put him in his car, drove him up the city away and said, now get out and good luck and drove off and left him.
01:17:57: He said, because if you're going to continue in this lifestyle of sin, you're going to have no part in our family. And it was very hard for that young man.
01:18:05: But a couple of years later, now born again, you know, you see the evidence of God's life.
01:18:14: He's born again, now back in church. He's in our church family now, you know, a very godly young man who's still battling.
01:18:24: But praise God, you know, he has a deep desire to follow Christ. So it's important that confrontation, discipline, and then eventually you kick them out if necessary.
01:18:40: You turn their body over to be destroyed, that their soul might be saved. And you have to trust God. So I think it's really hard for parents to do.
01:18:48: And it's a great question. Any advice for single mothers with children? This is where the church family is extremely important, extremely important.
01:18:59: I can't stress that. And it's where churches need to be raising up men of God who can come around those families and be an example to those mothers and be an example to come alongside of those mothers with fatherly figures in those children's lives.
01:19:20: And so that's where mentorship is important. It's where finding church should create avenues of discipleship for those children to especially a mom with young boys.
01:19:34: Men have to take responsibility to get those young boys and do manly things with them and train them on what it means to be a man.
01:19:43: So that's the church's responsibility for sure. And the mothers, single moms, they don't have to be fiercely independent in that.
01:19:55: They should make those needs known to the pastors and elders and leaders in the church. And then the pastors, elders, and leaders have a grave responsibility to respond to that need in the discipleship of those children.
01:20:08: So that's very important, very important. I think this was in an old, the book's not old, it's a compilation of old
01:20:17: Baptist polity that I was reading years ago. And there were sections on family worship.
01:20:23: And this is going to sound patriarchal and chauvinist, you know, those type of things. Reading old stuff.
01:20:30: But I think there's wisdom in a lot of places they went with this, where if there was not a man in the home the father had died, you would seek the next of kin as far as a male leader, the uncle or cousin or whoever, whoever was the next of kin that was a male.
01:20:54: And so practically in our circumstance, just like you were saying, John, our families and our churches that do have biblical male headship in the home should be willing to reach out and pull them in.
01:21:12: And then the advice for the single mom is be open to God's grace in that area, that these people are
01:21:19: His grace and His kindness to you, that they would bring you into their home and provide leadership and provide support and encouragement and all the things that you need as a single mom.
01:21:34: And so that would kind of be my advice in that area, which is harder to do, is easier to say than do, but be willing and open to God's mercy and grace.
01:21:53: Well, Jay, as we conclude this episode, would you please give us the gospel that is worth getting right?
01:22:02: Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, you can't start good news without bad news first.
01:22:09: And, you know, I don't want this to be something that just kind of becomes repetitive to the point where it just doesn't affect you anymore, right?
01:22:24: Like your conscience is seared, right? Like a lot of us, including many who live in the
01:22:30: Bible Belt, have heard the gospel many times. But for anybody that's listening, I really would strongly recommend that you just look inside yourself for just a second and ask yourself, you know, do
01:22:45: I lie? Have I stolen anything? Whether it's minor, whether it's big, you know, we like to compare ourselves to other people.
01:22:56: But when you start understanding who God is, perfection, absolutely, holy, holy, holy, there's no stain of sin.
01:23:08: There's not even the thought of sin in the mind of God. And you start looking at yourself and by comparison, you say, yeah,
01:23:18: I've hurt people. Yeah, I've wanted things from people that I thought
01:23:25: I deserved and they didn't. I've lusted after somebody or after something.
01:23:34: I've committed murder in my heart because I've hated somebody. I have offended a holy
01:23:42: God. I've hurt other human beings. I don't think anybody can honestly say, yeah,
01:23:49: I've never done any of that to some extent or another. If you're honest with yourself, you know that you have sinned.
01:23:59: You have committed these grave, grave atrocities before the sight of God.
01:24:06: And you are guilty. And I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but I kind of am because it's the truth.
01:24:16: But I'm trying to get you to realize something, which is you need a savior.
01:24:23: You need something that is outside of yourself. We cannot save ourselves because guess what?
01:24:29: If you say, okay, fine, I've sinned, but from now on, I'm going to get my life together. Well, you know what?
01:24:36: Let's say you could do that. You can't, but let's say you could stop sinning.
01:24:43: That doesn't clear you of anything you've already done. You cannot outwork however much you've done.
01:24:51: Even if you are 90 % good, that 10 % is always on your record. There's no hope in your own works.
01:24:59: There's no hope in trying to do better. You are guilty and you will always be guilty unless God intervenes.
01:25:08: And guess what? He did. The good news of Jesus Christ is exactly that.
01:25:15: People think about Jesus dying for us and he did. He died for sinners, Romans 5 .8.
01:25:21: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. But people don't realize something else. People don't realize that Christ also lived for us.
01:25:29: See, what he did is that he started from birth all the way until his death and resurrection and beyond.
01:25:39: He lived perfectly. And so that life that is stained by your sin, no matter how much good you do, guess what?
01:25:46: If you put your trust in Jesus Christ, if you repent of your sin, if you turn away from that sin and put your faith in him, his perfect life is counted as if you lived that life.
01:26:00: And his death on that cross pays for any and all sin you've ever committed. So what
01:26:05: I would beg you to do, to please do this, is think about this. How can you be saved?
01:26:14: Repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Trust in him. Hold on to him as if he's your only hope because he is your only hope.
01:26:23: Walk with him and know that God will never, ever, if you repent of your sin, if you ask for mercy, he will never turn you away.
01:26:33: He will never turn you away. Amen. Amen. Pastor Jonathan, would you please close us in prayer?
01:26:48: Father, we thank you so much that we can call you Father, knowing you're a good father.
01:26:54: You have loved us. You've redeemed us. You have saved us. And for any tonight that hear these words, we pray that you would call them out to repent and believe what
01:27:10: Jay just told us. We thank you so much that everything that was needed for salvation, you have given to us in Christ.
01:27:22: If you would give us that, how would you not also take care of us in all other matters of things?
01:27:30: And so Lord, we just pray that you would help us to find rest in that, peace in that, that you're good.
01:27:38: The gospel is enough. Christ, you're enough. And I pray that you encourage us to preach that boldly and plainly.
01:27:47: And then the results are left up to you. We trust you in that, Lord. Thank you for my brothers.
01:27:52: I pray you bless their families and bless their ministries. And all who are listening with us tonight, bless them,
01:27:58: Lord, and their families and their ministries. Thank you for the comments tonight, Lord. Thank you for the opportunity to engage and respond with one another.
01:28:07: And so we're trusting you, Lord, and give you glory, give you praise, Jesus. Amen. Amen.
01:28:13: Amen. Thank you all for watching The Laborer's Podcast and we hope to see you real soon.
01:28:21: Thank you for joining The Laborer's Podcast.
01:28:27: Remember, Jesus is King. Live in the victory of Christ. Speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.