Laboeres' Podcast- False Conversion

Biblical Conversion and the Call to Repent and Believe

Welcome to The Laborer's Podcast. We are back again on another Thursday night. Thank you for watching. Tonight we are going to be talking about Biblical conversion, true and false conversion, and how we share the gospel with a possible false convert.

We hope you will stick with us. Welcome to The Laborer's.

Podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things into Christ. Subscribe and follow the Truth in Love Network on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, Spotify, and iTunes.

Now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to The.

Laborer's Podcast. Tyler of Bread of the Word Podcast is going to lead us tonight. He put together our podcast guide. He's going to be our leader tonight. I'm looking forward to his leadership. I did want to introduce you guys.

If you've been watching or listening for any amount of time, you know Pastor Jonathan from Vertical Life. Thankful for him. Thankful for his church and the conference. Tyler of Bread of the Word. But we have a new laborer with us.

He's been with us in our chat group, on the website. He's been with us as a network, but this is his first time on the podcast. So welcome, Jay.

Introduce yourself just just briefly. Sure, well I'm Jay. I'm the Reform Recon as most people would know me as. So clearly I am Puerto Rican, yes. And nothing, I mean, the Lord has been gracious to me because I'm, you know, if you guys don't know my every day-to-day, you know, and I'm, my wife will tell you I am a sinner.

I am a sinner saved by grace. My children will tell you too. They'll be too glad to tell you how much of Daddy sometimes will say things and do things that he's not supposed to do. So, but you know, I'm thankful to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to have rescued me.

And maybe at some point I can tell you guys the whole story about that, but I'll keep it at that for now. That way I won't take up too much time. Just happy to be here, guys. Thank you very much for having me.

Absolutely. Tyler, I want to turn it over to you, brother. All right, I am honored to.

Take the helm on this one. When I worked, I used to work at a large sporting goods store as a, I was part of the security team, but one of my co-workers was a cashier and his day job was as a bank teller.

And one thing that I admired about him is that he could tell a counterfeit bill by having it in his hand. And there was one night where he got a counterfeit $100 bill and the customer handed it to him and he said, there is no way this is real.

And I say that because when it comes to the things of God, oftentimes that is the stance we ought to take is, can I hold it in my hand and know that this is real or not real? What is genuine and what is inauthentic?

And so when we talk about conversion, which is what we're talking about today, is evangelism, what it means to truly come to Christ, genuinely, authentically, actually. We also have to recognize what it doesn't mean to come to Christ, to have a false sense of what the gospel is, who Christ is, and why that matters.

So I guess to start off with the call of the gospel, as we often see in the New Testament, is repent and believe. So the first question, logically I would think, is what do we mean by repent and believe?

Pastor Jonathan, what does the Bible tell us about faith? So faith is obviously the very foundation. It is by grace, through faith, that we are saved, which both are, number one, a gift from God. So I would say that's very important to recognize is that faith is, first of all, not something that is just mustered up from within, but it is a work of God within us.

John tells us in the Gospel of John that, you know, that the Father draws. No one comes except the Father draws him. And so that drawing does something in us that creates the reality in our own hearts and minds that we are sinners.

There's conviction there. There's an awakening to that. And I think initially it would create a hopelessness within us, a recognition of a condemnation that is on our life because of sin, because we have sinned against God, and a hopeless estate.

And I think Paul recognizes that in Romans. I mean, he describes in, I think it's in Romans 7, the things I want to do, I can't seem to do, the things I don't want to do, I seem to continue to do. What a wretched man that I am.

And then he says, who will save me from this? And so I think that's what, first of all, I think that's the root of faith is the recognition, the fear of God, the recognition of the condemnation and of sin.

So that seed of faith then is planted, and there's a hopelessness comes there, and who will save me from this wretched man that I am? And then God does this work where Paul answers his question there in Romans 7.

He says, thanks be to God, Jesus Christ. So Paul doesn't say I'm going to do better. Paul doesn't say I'm going to act better. His faith then is rooted in Christ, the finished work of Christ. And so we're talking about a biblical faith.

That's what we're talking about, is the inability to save myself and then finding rest in the one, in the finished work of Christ, that is going to save me. Now, faith is not a blind faith. Faith is, in Hebrews chapter 11, that's a great chapter to go look if you're watching tonight.

I'd encourage you to go read Hebrews chapter 11. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. Like it's, so we don't see this work. So then faith, as James would say, I'm going to, it's something that actually becomes demonstrated.

And I think that's where we take the leap to repentance, and we'll get there in just a second, obviously. But there's an evidence in our life of faith. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. And so we need to remember that, that there's a working out of our faith.

That does not mean that works creates faith. But I don't think that we can separate biblically a genuine faith will have a genuine evidence. And so evidence and works is a product, not a means. I want to make sure to restate that and reinforce that.

But if there is genuine faith, there will be a works, there will be an evidence, there will be a change. And in the root of faith, having that faith, and it really is something that that stretches all of us, because there is a manner of the will of the person that by the work of God in us, we joyfully express our faith.

And that's why it's not robotic, it's not fatalism, this faith that God gives us. But there is this in working that is caused by God that does create a faith that in a joyful will, we receive Christ. We put our hope and faith in Christ, we find rest in the know.

And so that's why in the same chapter of Hebrews chapter 11, it says it's without faith, it is impossible to please God. So there is a tension in faith. Even in Reformed theology, there's still a tension that it's not fatalism.

I think there's a lot of people that want to argue about faith caused by God, and there is a causality there that God gets the glory for our faith. Then if God gets the glory for our faith, then it must be something that I did of my will.

And that's not necessarily wrong, but what's the origination of it? And so I would argue that faith is always a gift of God, caused by God, and then the result of that is a change of heart, and me placing faith there willfully, joyfully in Christ.

And in that, because of that faith, it does please God. It pleases Him. And so there is this tension there. Last of all, I would say biblically then to expand on faith quickly, the book of Corinthians, 1st Corinthians chapter 12, even talks about people in the body that have a unique gift of faith.

So faith is not just something that is only in the initiation of salvation by grace through faith, but it is a continuation of a gift that God gives believers, and there is a special gift of faith that some believers have that is just very unique, that God gives them this ability by the power of the Holy Spirit to have a tremendous amount of faith to trust God in very difficult circumstances.

So those are all ways that I would quickly talk about faith, and it's obviously a deep well. We could spend the entire night talking about that one word, faith, but I hope that's pretty summarized generally where faith is.

So just to condense that, there was a lot packed in there. That was great, but I guess, just being concise, when we say believe and repent and believe, what you're saying is that faith is a verb, that it's not wishful thinking, but it's.

It's acknowledgement of a reality. That's right. And how we summarize faith at our church is very simple. It's the statement, do you believe that what Jesus did on the cross is enough? And that's how we describe the most simplest form of faith, that it was absolutely enough, that the cross and the resurrection was enough to say, do you believe that?

So it's not faith, plus I'm going to do this, this, and this, and this, and then I will be saved. It's not faith, plus I'll get my life right, and then I'll be saved. No. Saving faith in our definition, and I believe, have a conviction of, is what Jesus did on the cross, enough to pay for all of your sins, all of them.

So and if the answer is yes, and it is with a sincere belief of convinced by the Spirit of God, that it's yes, it's enough, then I would believe that is belief. You have belief, so.

Well, Jay, Rob, do you have anything to add on what the Bible does or doesn't say about faith?

I don't have too much to add myself. I would just say, I think a lot of times people overthink it. You know what I mean? Like a lot of people, like for example, you were just saying that faith is, do you believe that what Jesus did is enough?

Right? So a lot of people will say, well, it's enough, but it's not applied to me because of whatever I've done. Right? And so they kind of start, it's just overthinking it. You know, it's like, it's very simple.

You know, do you no longer love your sin? And I guess I'm getting into some doubts here, so I don't want to jump into that too much. But do you no longer love your sin? And do you recognize Jesus as your only hope?

And do you understand that not only is He your only hope, but He can, He is able to. That's it. You know, like, I just say this because I feel like maybe there are people watching who kind of say, well, yeah, okay, I can see how that's faith, but, or listening, I'm sorry, people are watching or listening, who might say, I can see how that's faith, but I don't know if I have faith.

And so rest assured, you know, like, if you believe in Jesus Christ, if you're trusting in Him, that's it. That's faith. Now we can talk about how that all plays out. And I'll defer to the rest of you guys that are probably much wiser than I am, but I just wanted to add that in there.

Don't overthink it. Amen.

Well, and just to add to that, not only not overthinking it, but possibly rethink this idea of faith, because when we discuss the definition of faith, and we begin to talk about what it is, what it looks like, I think naturally as humans, when we hear that, we are still in that train of thought of, okay, this is something that I'm doing, I've got to do, I've got to transfer something in me onto that, and that's where naturally our mindset is.

But as Pastor John, he was sharing with from Hebrews chapter 11, you know, the way it describes faith there, it's a fruit. It's the substance, and it's the evidence. Faith is a fruit. So I really like what you were saying, Jay, that you asking ourselves the question, do I have faith?

Am I believing? And I think instead of trying to understand the definition and how do I do that, is am I doing that? Is it evidence in my life? If it is, then Jesus has done something, so we're giving the credit back to Him.

Getting us out of that mindset of, okay, here's the definition, am I doing it? Am I doing it right? That's kind of where I was thinking on it.

Biblical Repentance as a Gift and a Command

All right, so we have established faith, so now we've got the other half, which is repent. So what is biblical repentance, Pastor Jonathan?

So biblical repentance, I think biblical repentance, if you... and a lot of people... and I'm going to answer from my conviction on this one, because I think a lot of people have variations on this. So you guys feel free to jump in on that.

I try to reduce repentance down to its most basic meaning first, because the basic meaning of repentance really is not dealing with sin yet. It's literally the change of mind. To change your mind is the most basic, fundamental... when it says repent, it's change your mind.

Now, I would never ever discredit and say that repentance concerning sin, like Jay was mentioning a second ago, it's an important question. Do you still love your sin? If you still love your sin, then I would question, have you really changed your mind?

So for example, if a person has genuinely repented, then they're no longer going to believe that their good outweighs their bad, and by their good outweighing their bad, then they get to go to heaven.

You know, they're no longer going to have a works-based mentality. Their mind's going to be changed to the point that they have repented from putting any confidence in themselves, and any belief that they have any ability to save themselves, and the only hope they have is Jesus Christ.

That's the reason I started with the definition that I had earlier, that when God begins to do that work in your heart and mind, the first thing that happens is there has to be, I believe in my opinion, a realization of lostness and a realization of hopelessness that a person recognizes.

And in faith, I think that's why, just like you opened up very well, repent and believe, or believe and repent, however you use those. We want to get those things ordered, and see how order, because of how humanity works, but it's almost like those things in the work of God are practically synonymous, simultaneous.

When faith genuinely enters, it's like the change of mind immediately happens. I mean, it's like there's this like rub that, you know, a cord that's bound together that you really can't dissect the two as independent actions, that there is this work of God that happens that changes a person's mind.

And then, as a person's mind is changed, then of course we would say, then we're going to bear fruit with that repentance, which is the repentance of sin. There is going to be repentance of sin. There's going to be not only a change of mind, and we'll get into that later, but there's going to be a change of action.

There's going to be a change of thought. There's going to be a change of joy. There's going to be a change in what we love. There's going to be a change of what we pursue. There's, you know, all those kind of changes, repentances, continue to happen from that original repentance of change of mind, and where I put my faith and where I find my joy.

And so one thing that I found unique too in studying just briefly about repentance, there's a duality as well when it comes to repentance. Number one, God grants repentance. We need to recognize that.

Paul even describes it that way. I was looking at this scripture and it was really like, oh wow. Acts 11, 18, it recognized that God granted the Gentiles repentance, that this was a gift of God. Paul describes it in Timothy chapter two, verse 25, that those that oppose the gospel, we need to continue to pray for them and preach the gospel to them.

And then Paul said it this way, that God may perhaps, not guaranteed, but God may perhaps grant them repentance. And of course, Hebrews describes Esau sought repentance with tears and bitterness and there was none to be found, which is a very scary scripture when you really dig into it.

So number one, repentance just like faith is a gift and a work of God. And so that's the first part. The second part though is, which is kind of wild and it shows the mind of God that is greater than the way we think.

Not only is it a gift of God, but it's also a commandment of God. We read in Acts chapter 17, verse 30, that God has commanded everyone to repent. And so that's where you do get into the realities of election, you get into the realities of the sovereignty of God, the chosen of God, that the grace of God, the ones that God has had an effectual grace upon, do repent as a gift and they obey his command to repent.

But for a basic, simple definition, I believe it is literally a changing of mind when you get into the Greek, to change your mind, which then if you change your mind, it overall changes your direction in all things.

So.

I think it's interesting when you look at the response of the call to repentance in like the prophets in the Old Testament. I love that you pointed out Acts 11, 18 because we're actually working on the first ever Truth and Love Newsletter.

And Big John and myself are on deck to write the first issues in that. And I'm actually working on an article on biblical repentance right now. So I'm pretty sure that's in there. But when you look at Jonah, when Jonah proclaimed to the people of Nineveh, yep, 40 days and Nineveh shall be overtaken.

It says that the king of Nineveh when he heard this, he tore his clothes, put on sackcloth. I believe he shaved his head and he sat in ashes. You see likewise in other spots, you see practices of mourning.

Associated with repentance. With that change of heart that Jonathan was just talking about. This is serious. This has weight. So when we read about fasting and stuff, oftentimes it is a practice of mourning.

That we are in a sense mourning how sinful we are and how much we are desperately in need of a savior. And we could just ponder that the rest of our lives. We don't mourn enough sometimes. Oh, wretched man that I am who will deliver me from this body of death.

Someone else. It's interesting that you bring up the emotions, especially from the Proverbs there. Because a lot of times I think we get a bad rep, but I think it's sometimes as reformed guys, it's true of us sometimes that the fact that we're accused of being emotionless.

We're all academic and we're all about knowledge and we're emotionless. And then there's the other ditch of being emotional. But what we're talking about tonight, what Jonathan shared with us and then what you immediately shared with us and put those two together, it shows what the true biblical pattern looks like in our lives.

Knowledge of God is going to bring forth an erupt emotion within us. And so that's exactly what you're talking about, Tyler. Repentance or that change of mind that Jonathan was talking about is gonna bring forth that mourning.

And then that faith is gonna bring forth joy that we have in Christ, that we've been forgiven and then we can live. We now have the ability through him and by him to turn away from it and obey him and do what's right.

So that's a great balance that you guys brought. I love it.

I think for me, and this is something I reflect on often, especially when I catch myself, because we're still, Romans 7, we're still battling against this body of death, right? Against the law of sin.

And for me, something I reflect on often is Psalm 51. Psalm 51 for me is one of my favorite songs because it lays out, it's almost like whoever, when this Psalm was written, it's like they were reading my mind, because from the beginning it says, have mercy on me, oh God, according to your steadfast love, according to your abundant mercy, blot out my transgressions, wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin.

This person, right? And I believe Psalm 51 was by David. So David, he was broken. He was broken. I mean, it's not just, a lot of people think that repentance is just, well, I don't wanna go to hell, so I'm gonna follow Jesus.

It's good to fear hell. You know, I would say that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And part of that is fearing hell because God's wrath is unleashed in hell. But it doesn't just stop there, right?

The Bible says that it's the beginning of wisdom. But ultimately you are led somewhere where you realize the death and severity of your sin, not just in how it affects you, but in how it has affected other people and how it offends a holy and perfect God.

And you're broken over that. You know, you're absolutely broken over it. And I've realized that as you grow in Christ, maybe it's not for you guys, maybe it's not this way, but for me, things that maybe weren't a big deal to me before now, you know, it's like the most minute thing.

I'm like, Lord, how could I have sinned against you in such a way? And yeah, I mean, absolutely. Yeah, Manny Jones, you're absolutely right. The Lord breaks his elect and it's a place of brokenness that leads you to like the prodigal son.

Father, I'm no longer worthy to be called your son. And you find mercy there.

And I just wanna just help us know that every person, what happens a lot of times, we will make our experience the standard. So for example, is it possible for a 10 year old child to genuinely repent and believe?

Of course it is. And the emotion and the repentance of a 10 year old child who we at least hope, praise the Lord, has been spared from grievous sin may look very different from a guy that God breaks him down when he's 25 or 30.

That's true. And so the only caution that I have for us is you're exactly right. And that there is emotion, there's a reality, but a lot of times that emotion and reality and the fruit bearing keeping with repentance, the emotion that is attached with that becomes deeper involved deeper as we understand that our own depravity and the grace of God, that's where that emotion is produced.

So I just caution people sometimes that there can be a genuine repentance and there can be a turning to Christ with a childlike faith that may not be weeping and wailing, but it can be very genuine. It could actually be very joyful.

It could be, as Paul wrote this, some come by fear. So coming by fear, there could be a sermon on hell and the eternal judgment of God and a child hear that sermon, not manipulatively, but genuinely, because I'm preaching even this Sunday on the narrow way.

There's only one way. And those who try to come through any other door, the door is closed and there's no other way to come in. So there's gonna be people there Sunday that's gonna hear the gospel and they may not come weeping.

They may come joyfully because at least there's a way, you know, at least there's a way. So again, the fruit that comes out of every person's repentance may look very different. There are those that as David was confronted of his sin with Bathsheba, you know, he laid on his face and repented.

So, but that's the product. The repentance happened before the product. And so I think a lot of times in Christianity, we make the product, the standard. That's why I went back. That's why I tried to make a very basic definition.

Repentance is not the product. It's not the emotion. It's not what happens after the change of mind, but there will be an evidence. There was gonna be something that comes out. And I think that's where the other extreme swings, but in its basic form, the gift of God to repent is to change our mind about all of these things and turn to the ways of God, change from the way I think and turn to the way God thinks.

And then as a result, there's gonna be all kinds of stuff come out. And then I think Christians should be tremendously more emotional. And I think I am more emotional now than I was the day I was born again.

And the reason is I have a deeper understanding of the gospel today than I did, you know, when I was a 19 year old kid, you know. So does that make sense? And so I just, that feeds us into the next question, you know, though.

It does, it does.

To these extremes, but. Jonathan's good at doing that, leading us right into the next question. But I think what you said, Jonathan, was beautiful though, because sometimes we are tempted to say, hey, your repentance doesn't look like mine.

But then we fail to remember the spirit blows where he wants to and how he wants to. And so it's him doing the work. But what you're saying is also applicable to our growth and knowledge, our sanctification, all those things.

His work and somebody else's are gonna look different than mine. So in light of that,.

The Middle Ground Between Legalism and Easy-Believism

Last week we had talked a little bit about gospel extremes with legalism and easy-believism. And I think it might be safe to say that each of those represents a skewed view of either repent or believe.

You've got legalism that leans really hard into repent as almost like a moralistic approach, but then you've got easy-believism that really centers on faith and more so sometimes kind of devolves into more of that wishful thinking as opposed to acknowledgement of a reality.

So in light of these two extremes that seem to be missing an ingredient each, how might we find the middle ground between those two extremes?

You wanna call on somebody or? I mean, well, easy-believism, you have a lot of people from that camp and who believe this, who don't really expect, or I guess you could say require any change. It's almost like Jesus died for my sins.

Cool, great, I'll keep on going and I will keep on doing what I'm doing. That's not repentance. That's just what people seek. The Bible says that none seek after God, right? And I've had people ask me, well, how do you reconcile that with people who are searching?

And I say, a lot of people are searching for assurance that they're gonna be okay, that God's perfectly happy with them. But as soon as they hear, hey, you need to repent of your sin, you need to turn away.

It's like the rich young man who came to Jesus and basically they went through the 10 commandments and the rich young ruler said, yeah, I've kept all of them. He was looking for Jesus to basically say, hey, you've got eternal life.

Jesus didn't give him that. What Jesus said is, one more thing that you have to do is sell everything you have and follow me. And he went away sad because he had great wealth. And that just shows that what he was really looking for wasn't a change.

He wasn't really looking for eternal life per se. He was just trying to have this false sense of security. And we'll talk about that later. And I think that's what happens with a lot of what ease of believism is about.

On the other side of things, the other side of the coin, you have legalism where there's an overemphasis in obeying everything that God has to say and more. It's not just love your neighbor as yourself.

It's not just, if you love me, you will keep my commandments. It's essentially what the Pharisees had done. They were adding rules. They were adding requirements that God had not given. And there's really a lack of grace sometimes on the legalism side of things.

And so how we reconcile those two, we're human beings and we're never gonna get it perfect. I think sometimes we're gonna lean a little bit more legalistic than we should. And sometimes we're gonna lean a little bit more, I guess you could say easy believism than we should, but we should remember that, yes, we are called to repent and believe and to obey God.

But at the same time, we also are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. And so, I don't know if maybe you guys can say something additional to this, but I would say for me, it's a lifelong learning process, right?

That's what happens through sanctification. So I don't know, what do you guys think about that?

Well, Jacob had a question that building off of what you were saying, Jay. And he said, do you think Arminianism, pragmatism and a wrong view of man's quote free will are some of the big contributing factors to easy believism?

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think so. You'll rarely find somebody from the Calvinistic side of things saying that they're on board for easy believism. And so, yeah, I'm not trying to put anybody under the bus, but I remember like Billy Graham, right?

And Billy Graham, I remember him saying something along the lines of, there's not an exact quote, so don't quote me, but he said, I hope that maybe just 3 of the people that raised their hands and repented actually did.

And I think what he was alluding to was the fact that sometimes the message can be misconstrued and we often forget James two, right? Where faith without works is dead. And we just kind of look into that all grace, free grace theology kind of thing.

And that definitely comes from the Arminian, sort of pragmatist side of things where it's just like, hey, it's just believe, it's that simple. Well, even the demons believe, so.

I would just say this in both those circumstances, you are not looking to Jesus, but you're looking to yourself. So on the legalism side, you're looking to see what you need to do to earn or gain salvation, even though mentally you may not be thinking that, that's what you're doing.

So you're looking to yourself. On the easy believism side, you're looking to yourself for what you can get out of it and then you've got it, and then therefore you can live however you wanna live. But in both cases, you're not looking to Jesus.

I think if you want to find the middle ground or the biblical ground, you're gonna look to Jesus in both circumstances and you're gonna see he did it all. He did all the work. He gets all the glory. And then on the easy believism side, it's not easy.

It cost him his life. We're dead in our trespasses and sin. Somebody's gotta make us alive. And then we're called to die to our sins, die to ourself and take up our cross and follow him daily. And so in both circumstances, I would say look to Jesus and not ourselves.

So what I'm hearing, I'm sorry.

All right, no, you're good. I just like to make two statements on it though too. So number one, the motive to the methodology is very important. I grew up in easy believism methodology. As a Southern Baptist, okay.

And there was youth camps and all this kind of stuff. Bow your head, close your eyes, repeat after me. If you'd said this prayer, raise your hand. We wanna talk to you right after. Then come fill out this card and then purposely you're saved, you're born again.

So that's what I was raised in. And then I had very good friends that were on the legalism side that was like, but the methodology is driven by motive. And on both sides of the extremes, I don't think the motive was necessarily wrong because the motive was we wanna get people saved and we wanna keep them saved.

So one side appeals exactly like you said, Robert, the easy believism side appeals to narcissism, to self-centeredness. The legalism side appeals to, we're gonna scare people into, we're gonna keep them so jostled up that they could might lose their salvation.

We're gonna keep them so, that it's gonna keep them saved and keep them holy. That's in the holiness movement. So, but I think genuinely the motive was we want people to follow Jesus. So this one, so the easy believism did what they were saying let's make it as easy as possible for them to get a little toe in the water.

And the legalism side is we're gonna scare them to death so that they'll follow Jesus. And so again, I try to give some credit to some of these guys. At least I think they're, not all by the way, that there's a lot, that their motives really were right.

But here's the sin on both of those sides. And you're wanting to know what the middle ground is. The middle ground, the healthy biblical ground is that we believe in the sufficiency of the gospel and the power of God to save.

So on both extremes, it's by man's effort on easy believism, it's I have to perform and manipulate. And so, and then on the legalism side, I'm performing and manipulating. So on both sides, it takes manipulation to cause that.

But the healthy middle ground is it doesn't require any manipulation. The healthy biblical perspective, and it's really not a middle ground, it's the ground of biblical principle is we preach the gospel and we believe in the sufficiency of the clarity of the gospel.

And we believe in the power of God to save, that he is still mighty to save. So sufficiency and supremacy are the biblical principles in the proclamation of the gospel, that the gospel is enough. I don't have to like scare people to death with legalism.