Josh Buice on the Dividing Line

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:08

Well, greetings and welcome to the

00:38

Dividing Line. I feel like I'm, like, uh, way out of, out of, well,

00:43

I just don't like having a camera on me at any time at all, to be honest with you. And I think the majority of the people watching don't like that very much either.

00:51

The only reason we do a videocast is when I show stuff and things like that because otherwise

00:56

I would, I would just sort of say, yeah, let's not bother with that. And we didn't for many, many, many years and that was probably good.

01:03

But anyway, welcome to the Dividing Line. You're going, wait a minute, you did one yesterday. Pastor Tom Buck was in and you all talked about all sorts of stuff, but nothing overly controversial.

01:14

And this is true. But today you'll notice that I'm, I'm wearing one of my

01:21

G3 shirts, you know, and I try to avoid, wow, you managed to move that.

01:27

Well, that's pretty cool how you can do that without actually being in here. That's impressive. That's, that's, that's, that's cool.

01:35

Anyway, I'm wearing one of my G3 shirts because G3 is coming up again. See, there's a little thing there and they've got one.

01:43

It's not the best picture of me, but anyways, there is a, there's a picture of many people on the thingy

01:49

Bobby there and there it says G3. So that's big enough to read. Um, but, uh,

01:54

January sounds like it's a million years away from now, but, uh, given that I will be traveling another 65 ,000 miles or so between now and then.

02:06

Uh, but, uh, no, it'll be coming up much faster than, than, and I really like the fact that my picture is, is right next to Michael Kruger.

02:14

Um, because that just makes me much smarter. Uh, but then it's right above Todd Friel. So it's sort of, that'll end up on YouTube somewhere.

02:25

But anyway, uh, um, this, this, uh,

02:31

I would, I always, when I'm thinking about what I'm going to wear, uh, cause I used to,

02:36

I didn't have to worry about what I wore, uh, before Rich put these cameras in here and stuff.

02:42

I didn't even have to give it a second thought, but now I do. And so like,

02:47

I don't generally wear like my EBTC shirts or my G3 shirts when

02:53

I'm going to be talking about really controversial stuff. Cause I, there are so few people who will even be seen in the same room with me anymore that I, I have to hold onto the few that will be.

03:05

So I've just got to be sort of careful, you know, Rich has to, cause he's stuck, you know, it's just, it's, it, he's sort of doomed, but he's, he's stuck with it, but other people don't.

03:16

So why would I be wearing it? Because the boss man's here and, uh, and, and he is sort of the boss man and he's got,

03:24

I knew he would have a G3 shirt too, because you have, how many G3 shirts do you have? I have a number of them.

03:30

You have a number of them. I have a number of them, but I always get the year afterwards. So, so this year you went with colored, um, uh, uh, stuff.

03:41

Yes, we did. So I get the hand -me -downs in January of this year, right? You might end up with this shirt.

03:49

So, so, so Josh, Josh Bice. Now what's, what's, what's the, what's the background of that?

03:57

Because it shouldn't, that's, that's not French. No, uh, we came from the Netherlands. The Netherlands.

04:03

Yeah. So that's, uh, cause that's not, I bet you, you hear every possible permutation.

04:09

Yeah. It's not to be confused with James P Boyce or James Montgomery Boyce. That's right.

04:14

Or Buisse or Buisse or Buick or anything else. Buick -y. There are a lot of different ways there.

04:22

Uh, yeah, you bet. I bet you have to spell it almost every time, uh, when checking into a hotel or something like that. But, um, when did you start the, uh, the

04:30

G3 conferences? We started the G3 conference, uh, shortly after I came back home to serve the church where I serve presently, uh, in Atlanta, Georgia, just West of Atlanta, Georgia.

04:40

Um, we just wanted to start a theology conference. Um, so it was just before 2013, this was, uh, 2011.

04:48

Uh, we started praying through the process of starting a good theology conference in the

04:54

Atlanta area. And so just praying through what that looked like, uh, we came up with the name

04:59

G3, uh, just gospel, grace, glory. We wanted everyone to know from the beginning, this was a theology conference.

05:07

Uh, this is not a pep rally. This is not something you go to, to just hang out with religious people.

05:13

This is, we're going to get down to business. We're going to have 10 to 15 main session sermons, breakout sessions included.

05:21

Um, you got to be able to sit around for a while. Yeah. I mean, we have a reputation of being very fast paced.

05:27

Um, so we like to try to fix that a little bit, but at the same time, we want to maximize as much as we can through, you know, through those three days, especially because you're trying to get people to come from long distance.

05:38

Absolutely. So that was 2011, 2013 was the first year we expected to have a few people come from just outside of the

05:45

Atlanta area. Uh, maybe a couple of States just in the Southeast. Uh, our sanctuary will seat, uh, at our church roughly.

05:55

I mean, if you just squeeze people in maybe 800 and we had a waiting list of people to get in.

06:02

So we looked at the registration list and it was people not just from the Southeast, but it was from literally all over the country and outside of the country.

06:11

And so that was the first four years until 2017, the reformation conference, we moved away from the campus, as you know, to go to the convention center ever by the airport where we had roughly 2 ,500.

06:24

Right. Right. Yeah. And, uh, so, uh, I was at the church twice, twice, and then this year at the conference center, we did our first pre -conference debate this year.

06:41

Well attended. Very well attended, very well attended, uh, with Trent Horn of Catholic Answers.

06:48

And, um, we're, we're, we're trying to arrange, uh, a, a pre -conference debate this time too.

06:55

Yeah. And there aren't too many people you can get that do debates very often.

07:01

That's, uh, we're a, we're a very odd lot, very strange group. Yeah. So I'm glad you put up with, with the odd, odd folks, but, uh, so there's differences going to a convention center.

07:12

I mean, aside from the fact that you get a whole lot more walking in, uh, much, much, uh, much healthier when you get, when you finish off because, uh, but you also, uh, get to, uh, have a whole lot more display area.

07:29

So you had a huge, huge number. How many, how many, uh, people?

07:35

The exhibitors? Yeah. The exhibitors. Uh, I think we had maybe 65 or so. And, um, again, that's just word of mouth and that type of thing.

07:44

So if we really pushed it, we could have quite a number more. But again, I mean, we, the, the goal of the exhibit hall is not to just see if we can get 200 of them.

07:53

I mean, because we obviously could, it's to put before people trustworthy resources and good ministries.

08:00

That's the key. Yeah. Yeah. I spent a lot of time over there. We were set up next to Michael Fallon and the sovereign, sovereign folks and, uh, uh, with whom we do a tremendous amount of work.

08:11

And, uh, um, you know, as soon as we'd get in there, then the line would start forming and, uh, you start talking with folks and, uh, and, uh, so that, that's, that's great.

08:22

And, uh, but, but we took up a lot of, a lot of space, a lot of room. And, uh, uh,

08:28

I, I just know, obviously it's different, um, to go to the convention.

08:34

It was. How, how did that change things, uh, on your end? Because I mean, your, your people had to do everything.

08:40

Yeah, they do. And that's a huge amount of work to have it on your campus, but to even move it away, it's still a huge amount of work.

08:50

Yeah. So the, you know, the church that, that was the most difficult part of moving to the convention center.

08:57

Um, in many ways it was easier for the church because we're not having to do as much work.

09:03

Uh, we wanted to do more than we, we were, you know, we were able to because of the rules and all of the, the contracts with food and beverage and all of this.

09:11

They, they just limit us. We can't bring in stuff. I mean, you get a, you get a shepherd's conference and you walk out the doors and you have a thousand people standing there ready to, uh, you know, shine your shoes and hand you an ice cream cone, you know,

09:23

I mean, it's just, and so, so we're limited as to what we can do, um, at a convention center.

09:29

So that was the most challenging aspect because the church really sees it as a ministry and then, you know, an opportunity to invest in other believers, other churches, pastors.

09:40

And so for us, that was a really, um, it was a difficult thing for us. We had a lot of conversations amongst the family, you know, so to speak within the church to just say, look, you know, we can still accomplish ministry just at a different venue.

09:55

That's what we're seeking to accomplish. I see 18 pictures here. Not all of those are main session speakers.

10:02

Some of them will be just speaking in breakout sessions, but trying to, uh, just maximize the, the time, you know, over those three days.

10:11

That's just, that's just a lot of people. Yeah, it is. I don't, I, I just, I don't go to another conference that has that many people.

10:19

Yeah. Well, once again, we're just trying to do the best that we can as far as being good stewards of the ministry that the

10:25

Lord's entrusted to us. We want to have as many people come, many opportunities. Well, again, another thing that you didn't mention is the reason you have,

10:33

I think three or four of those will be speaking in the first annual Spanish conference this year.

10:38

Yeah. I just saw the Spanish January 17th. Yeah. So all day Wednesday before the potential debate that you would do on Wednesday evening would be all day on Wednesday would be in Spanish.

10:50

So Q and A. We're not doing, we're not doing the debate in Spanish. Yeah, no, no, no. We're not going to do the debate. I may live in Phoenix, but I'm not doing the debate in Spanish because I don't actually speak

11:01

Spanish. German really doesn't do much good here in Phoenix, but that was what

11:07

I chose to study. It's great in Wittenberg though. Yes, it is. I will be able to, there's this, there's this great pasta place in Wittenberg and, you know,

11:19

I was just in Wittenberg a few weeks ago. And let's just say the food that was generally available wasn't my favorite.

11:31

So I hit this pasta place and they actually got to know me over the course of the week.

11:37

And so if we go there, I can get you through the menu because they don't do

11:45

English real well. Yeah, I need a translator. You need a translator. So the spaghetti bolognese, really, really good.

11:53

Very good. Really, really good. And not overly expensive either, which is sort of nice.

11:58

But anyway, so we've done a couple conferences, but we don't do them anymore because they're too much work.

12:11

Yeah, lots of work. I mean, I see you at the end of this and it's, it's sort of like when somebody, when somebody, well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, not, not that Rich, not yet.

12:25

Hold on. I'll let you know. It's almost like when somebody finishes a marathon, you know?

12:31

Yes, I've done both. And I know you're a very good runner, unlike me, who

12:36

I just sort of plod along, but I'll get you on a bike and maybe we'll be even.

12:42

But the amount of work is just astounding.

12:49

So why? Well, again, the conference is not to, it's not for us.

12:58

It's not for me. It's not for, you know, namesake or anything of that nature.

13:04

It's a ministry. It's to invest in and to further sound biblical theology and methodology in a local church.

13:13

So we obviously want to have the benefits in our local church, but we want to further that agenda within the, you know, the evangelical church or Southern Baptist churches and various other churches who come because you see the

13:27

G3 conference is not just a Southern Baptist. I mean, we have Presbyterians who come, we have

13:34

Reformed Baptists, we have non -denominational, we have SBC. So we want to see the local church to, you know, become healthy.

13:42

And so that's the ultimate goal. But again, I just need to be very clear. I did not,

13:47

I don't do all of the G3 conference work. I have a really, I have a wonderful church and a wonderful staff, wonderful elders that help me.

14:02

Yeah, but we all know where help behind the scenes. I couldn't do it on my own. So unlike a marathon where it's like, you're the only guy that can finish this.

14:11

I do have a lot of help. Now Vody and I can rock the bow ties. Yeah. But I've tried with Steve.

14:20

Yeah. No, there is, I am now 100 % convinced that Steve sleeps in his suit.

14:28

I think so. He does. I've watched him pack before. He has a certain routine that he goes through.

14:34

I got some new Steve Lawson stories from Wittenberg. Yeah. I really did. I can't tell you on the air though.

14:40

I'll tell you later. They're great. I thought though, since I turned 40 today,

14:45

I can start wearing bow ties now. Yeah. Well, no, wait a minute. Yeah. Now that was an old joke,

14:52

I think, but there was a shot in there because I don't, do you think that has something to do with age?

15:01

Have you told Vody this? Do you realize what Vody could do to you without you even seeing it coming?

15:07

I would say that with the door open. Because you figure you might be able to outmove him?

15:13

I can. Have you seen how fast that man can move? I can run longer. So I'll just get up the street and he can't catch me.

15:20

That's true. That's true. Wow. Okay. That's very, well, I should mention that today is a special,

15:27

I mean, we are just so deeply honored that on today, this special day, your birthday.

15:36

Yeah. And Rich gave me a cup of coffee for my birthday. Well, we have something more for you.

15:41

Oh, okay. We have something more for you. Rich is bringing it in now. I worked really hard on this, but I want you to know how much this means.

15:52

This is wonderful. Because we can see it. Okay. There we go.

16:00

Anyway. Yeah. Here. Okay. Here. This, let me tell you what this is. Muscle milk makes some of the yummiest protein bars on the planet.

16:15

This is one of my very own muscle milk, chocolate, peanut butter, 20 grams of protein bars.

16:25

They are sinfully delicious. Wonderful. And so we felt you had to have something.

16:31

So there you go. There's no one else could do what we've done.

16:37

After all you've done for me, all these, we give you a protein bar with a candle in it.

16:44

Great. What would my one wish be? Yes. Yes. What would my one wish be?

16:51

Yeah. He's thinking about it. I was going to wait for you to sing and then well, you know, that would, that would probably lose our entire audience if we did that.

17:01

So yeah, that would break YouTube. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. There you go. Thank you guys. You're most welcome.

17:07

Have you ever had a muscle milk chocolate? Yeah. It's good. Really good. Yeah. They protein, you know, it used to be, you sort of felt like you were really doing it because I'm eating my protein and it's horrible, but it's good for me.

17:23

And now it's just sort of like I'm eating my protein and it's like a candy bar. It's just so good.

17:29

It's just disgusting. It really is. And that was not a paid advertisement, by the way. I want everyone to understand I am not a paid spokesperson for either muscle milk or quest bars.

17:39

Both of them are just ridiculously good. However, in fact, you take a quest chocolate chip cookie dough bar 15 seconds in the microwave and it is, it's not right.

17:49

Yeah. It's not right. 20 grams of protein. It's just awesome. Only 190 calories. That's a little bit more than 190 calories.

17:54

I know that you probably are counting them. Well, we have about 26 hour drive home with 13 of us, seven children.

18:02

So, uh, yeah, it'll, it'll, it'll go, it'll, it'll be used. So there you go. So 40,

18:08

I hate, I hate to point this out. Yeah. Um, but in a couple of weeks

18:13

I have my 35th wedding anniversary. Nice. So, um, that, that gives you an idea.

18:23

Yes, it does. I ain't old enough to be your pop -up, but I ain't that far away.

18:28

Yeah, there you go. So 40 is nothing.

18:34

Enjoy, enjoy your youth. Um, I am currently, um, engaging in that horrific activity of trying to get ready for, uh, my, my

18:47

July, um, rides. And so, uh, what is the date today?

18:54

14th. I have less than a month until, uh, the triple bypass, which is 120 miles, 10 ,500 feet of climbing between 7 ,500 and 12 ,000 feet above sea level.

19:05

And the next weekend is the assault of Mount Evans, uh, on the rivets for three hours to 14 ,130 feet above sea level.

19:15

And so you ride at like three o 'clock in the morning. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, I'm going to ride outside.

19:21

Yeah. So, I mean, you told me that I thought, man, that's, that's crazy. And you know, I know Phoenix is hot, but then when

19:28

I arrived here, um, wasn't that bad? Well, I mean, I'm, well, no, I mean the heat wasn't, uh, but I got up early.

19:35

I said, I'll get up at five 30 and go run. And it's like, it's been up for an hour or the sun's rising at five 30 right now.

19:43

Yeah. Well, I mean, it was really, really light. I mean, the sun was already up at five o 'clock.

19:50

I could see the sun at five o 'clock. A little early. Cause I timed that very, very accurately.

19:56

But the point is once the sun hits you, you you've only got, there's this, there's this guy named a purifier walks out into the sun on this one planet and it just blows them away.

20:11

He just lights up. That's Phoenix about a year, about one hour after sunrise. So if you're going to be riding, you need to be getting home about then, or it's going to start getting ugly.

20:21

Yeah. I mean, I think it's just because you guys must be close to the, the, the time zone change, the, we don't do, we don't.

20:28

Yeah. I mean, I know you don't hear, but what I'm saying is when you, when you cross over that, that time zone, that the, the, the sun comes up extremely early here for us in Atlanta.

20:40

If I go run at five 30, it's still dark. I have to use a flashlight.

20:46

Not here. Oh, I have, I have, I do, I do that too. Actually I do run in the dark at times as well.

20:52

So yeah, we're both committed to that kind of thing. I think, look, I think it's important. The problem is 15 years from now.

21:00

Much more difficult. Translate, translate yourself 15 years in the future and getting back in the ability to, to function at 14 ,000 feet above sea level is not easy.

21:11

But why do we do it? Well, some people would say bodily exercise, profit is little. That's what the King James says.

21:17

But that's in comparison to godliness. And I don't know about you, but um, when

21:22

I'm working hard with goals physically, I will work hard with goals mentally and spiritually too.

21:30

And if my body is sluggish, um, if I don't do something physical, at least my goal this year,

21:41

I know everybody looks at me as this doesn't look like that. My goal this year is 750 crunches per day for the entire year, 275 ,000 for the year.

21:49

I'm actually above that right now, but that's because when you and I go to Europe, I normally carry a little machine

21:57

I put together that helps support my, my neck when I do crunches. I'm not going to have time to be putting that together and taking it apart with all the different places we're going.

22:05

So I'm going to lose solid two weeks right there. So I've got to try to buffer that ahead so I can catch up with it afterwards.

22:12

But, um, you know, that kind of stuff, if I don't do something like that, like on a

22:17

Lord's day morning, I will be a slug when it comes to preaching or teaching. I will be because this body, this body and this mind, they're connected.

22:26

And we, I think some Christians have a Gnostic idea that, you know, your spirit's out there someplace and, and, and no, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't work that way.

22:36

It doesn't. And just the nature of the beast as a pastor do a lot of sitting, a lot of reading.

22:42

And so if, you know, it just, you just feel better. I think you preach better. I think that you think better if you can stay healthy.

22:49

And I'm certainly not in as good of shape as I have been in years past, but, um,

22:55

I'm trying to get in better shape and I just think it makes me, it makes me better all the way around. I mean, in all areas.

23:01

And especially now that you've hit the big four. I know, I know it's all downhill from this point. Well, it was actually,

23:06

I had a high school teacher that said it was downhill from 18. So it was really depressing, but, uh, no, it, it, trust me, it takes more and more work.

23:18

It's easier to stay in shape than to get back in shape. So I encourage you to, uh, to continue to do that.

23:24

We've never run together because I'd slow you down too much. Yeah. You always have an excuse about it being too cold in January.

23:31

Uh, no, that, my friends in Ukraine are laughing at that because I ran in Ukraine at 19 degrees.

23:37

And I saw that, but I do distinctly remember you saying you had to have a treadmill in Atlanta because it was so cold.

23:47

The one G, the first G3 you came to when it, and it, and it was. Well, I don't run on ice.

23:52

I don't run on ice. I, I have goals. And so, uh, torn up knees,

23:59

ACLs and stuff. No, I don't do not run on ice. If it's that cold, I'm not doing that. So anyway, speaking of which, so we've got, so January 17th with the

24:09

Spanish 18th to the 20th, Atlanta, Georgia, uh, g3conference .com, uh, people can, uh, sign up there and they need to sign up.

24:16

They don't, they don't, they don't need to be putting themselves on wait lists and things like that. Uh, vote is coming back over Steve Lawson.

24:23

Um, do you have, you have all of the things that Steve needs ready to go?

24:28

The, the, the burgers without cheese and only mustard.

24:34

Yeah. So it's, it's typically a turkey sandwich with sun chips, vitamin water.

24:39

There you go. There you go. And I thought I was picky and, uh, and Paul still, still plan on being there.

24:45

Paul Washer's doing much better. Uh, spoke with him, actually just texted, uh, just a couple of weeks back and he's, he's improving.

24:55

Uh, and so things are going well with him. Yeah. Well, I know my dad had a quadruple bypass couple of years ago and was like changing the, the, it's like, it's like refurbishing the engine.

25:05

You know, he's, I think coming up on 80, 85 now and made a huge difference, made a huge difference.

25:12

But you know, the thing that bugs me is I saw him shortly before the heart attack. He was at the TMAI symposium that I was speaking at, uh, before the shepherd's conference.

25:21

And it was because he told me what the doctors had said that I didn't see it.

25:27

If I, if he had walked into that room and he didn't tell me what doctors had said it was, I'd have got, dude, you've got a blockage someplace.

25:34

There's what I can, I had seen this before, but when someone tells you, oh, I've seen the doctors, doctors say it's this thing over here.

25:40

And then it's like, oh, okay, fine. You know? And it's like, ah, I, but I had been telling him, he will tell you at G3, you were there when he walked up to me and I had to,

25:54

I had to steady him because he wanted to tell me what was going on in Africa in regards to Islam. And I, you've heard, you've heard me tell him, brother, you've got a young daughter.

26:07

Don't give me the, the Charles Spurgeon. I'm going to burn out at a young, young age type thing.

26:13

Um, I don't buy it. So I, I would, I can honestly say, I was trying to tell the guy, dude.

26:20

At that point, I will say we met again, the shepherd's conference, um, shortly after the

26:26

G3 and, um, he was already canceling things at that point.

26:31

Yeah. He told me that he was supposed to be, I think, um, he was supposed to be in Geneva. I mean, uh, in Vindenberg.

26:37

Yeah. So, so there you go. So he was pulling back already at that point, but, but not fast.

26:43

Praise God. He's doing much better. Good. Good. So we'll look forward to, to seeing him. And I would,

26:48

I just can't wait to see him at full strength. Yeah. Cause we, we haven't seen Paul Washer at full strength for a long time.

26:55

We really haven't. And Michael Kruger, um, I, I know it bugs him when

27:02

I say this and it's a little bit easier for me to say this cause he's younger than I am. Uh, but, uh, just one of the most brilliant minds in the church today really, really is.

27:13

And I don't know how it fits in, how we can make it fit in to the topic, but if there's some way to get him to talk about canon issues there, there, so few people can address that topic and he is just brilliant in that area.

27:29

Yeah, he definitely is. He's a gift to the church and we would love to get the two of you to sit up and do maybe a, a

27:37

Q and a session or a, just a discussion on these matters. Well, especially what he and I could do is, is, is early manuscripts because I'm working on P45.

27:46

He's done so much work in that whole general area, uh, that those early manuscripts we could put together, we could put, we got pictures, uh, you know, there's so much great high end, uh, digital photography now of the early papyri.

28:00

And, um, I've just found it's amazing. Maybe it's just because we have geeks that, uh, that watch this program all the time, but I've found a lot of Christians that are just fascinated when they get to actually see the manuscripts.

28:14

Instead of little note, the bottom of the page says some manuscripts say this, there, there's P45, there's P66, there's

28:19

P75. Wow. P75 and Codex Sinaiticus both come from the same line. They go back into the first century, uh, in, in their texts and wow, this is amazing stuff.

28:28

And a lot of people, you know, when, when I debated Bart, Bart Ehrman, he just so condescendingly, uh, says to the whole audience,

28:36

I doubt anyone could really understand what we were saying. And it's just like, oh, uh, people really do love it.

28:44

And I was just teaching in the Czech Republic. Um, and one of the things they wanted me to speak on was the textual critical stuff.

28:53

And, uh, so there's just so little of that. So it's, it's important stuff and we'll get a chance to do that.

28:58

So there's, there's, but you're, you're, you've got a little something to do before G3.

29:04

Yeah. Yeah, we do. And it's only a matter of weeks away. Um, and that is, we're going to, uh, to Europe and, um, we haven't,

29:14

I don't have a clue how we're going to handle this stuff.

29:20

I have a feeling it's going to be sort of stream of consciousness type thing. Uh, but we're going to be going all over the place and people are going to be looking at you and me to somehow provide some kind of, um, background.

29:32

What scares me is you'll frequently have people on these tours that know more about these places than we do.

29:39

So, but we have to look, we have to make it look good. Yeah. How are we going to do that? Well, we're going to study and we're going to read.

29:46

Well, I've been doing that for a long time, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be well prepared.

29:52

Looking forward to that. It's just going to be a wonderful thing to walk in the footsteps of the reformers.

29:58

People say, why do you go to Europe and walk in the footsteps of the reformers?

30:03

What's the big deal? I mean, you know, it's the 500th anniversary. Yeah, that's a big deal. But why go to all the trouble and go over and make this journey?

30:12

Um, I think that it's like, um, you know, for instance, going to Israel or going someplace like that. I mean, it puts things into perspective.

30:19

When you think about going to Worms in 1521 and you go to, uh, where Luther literally came into Worms and this,

30:28

I mean, the streets are filled with people that just want to see this guy and they have to sneak him in and just think about standing at that very place where he gave his stand and he...

30:40

Which is now... It's just a placard on the ground. It's a placard on the ground. You have to get the leaves off of it. Yeah. But I mean...

30:45

Which says something about Europe as a whole. Yeah. Well, it does. I mean, parking place number 23 and things like that.

30:52

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Well, I was just in Wittenberg and, and you'll be proud of me since there weren't any bikes around.

31:01

Mike Abendroth was there and he actually found a bike, but it was one of those, you know, but I got up every morning and I ran.

31:09

I was the only person that got up every morning and ran. And I, by the way,

31:15

I'll be able to show you the smoother areas to run in rather than running. Those cobblestones is dangerous and not easy on the body, but, you know, running past the castle church and seeing, well, seeing all the, you know, they're preparing, obviously, for the, all the

31:33

Lutherans are going to show up. Right. Things like that. But just thinking, running past where the, where Exerge Domine was burned.

31:44

Yeah. Okay. There's a path that goes right down and over toward Lutherstadt right there.

31:50

And it's just, it's like, yeah, that's where it happened. That's, that's fascinating.

31:56

And running, running past the Luther house and realizing that right inside there, it's gone now, but was the little room that Luther had.

32:03

And you can sort of point to people to where it was, though it's not there any longer. And it's sort of like, it all happened, you know, it really happened.

32:12

And then, of course, one of the things we're gonna have to keep explaining to people is the fact that you and I probably would have been in deep trouble in Wittenberg by as early as 1525.

32:27

Absolutely. And that really causes people angst and cognitive, cognitive, cognitive dissonance, dissonance, whatever it is.

32:41

It's just like, no, wait a minute. How can I, how can I enjoy visiting the castle church or the

32:51

Luther house and stuff like that? When at the same time, what you're basically saying is, yeah, well, when you go, if we go to the, we go to the

33:02

Vartburg. Yes. Yeah. And so we'll get to see. Where he was hiding.

33:07

Not only where he was hiding, but where a man who refused to have his children baptized was imprisoned in a tiny cell for eight years till he died.

33:21

And people go, well, I can't learn from somebody or honor somebody that would have done that.

33:31

See? Yeah. And that's gonna be, for me anyways, that has to be a constant theme is that we have to learn how to read church history.

33:43

Be balanced. And allow the people of history to be the people then and not judge them by the standards that we have today.

33:51

Or you're not going to find almost anybody in church history that you're going to have a particular love for. Right. Right. And that's one of the beautiful things about the scriptures.

34:00

If you read how the Holy spirit inspired the word of God, you see that there's, it's not just wonderful things that we see about people like King David, we see some really bad things that he did.

34:12

And so I think that that's a misconception about people sometimes is they say, well, you guys are making

34:18

Calvin and Luther out to be just these unblemished heroes. You're following them.

34:23

And that is not what we're attempting to do. Not even close. Not even close. Not even close. No, we will.

34:29

I certainly, I bring to any discussion of church history issues, things like that, obviously my apologetic concerns.

34:40

And so folks will probably end up with much more of a education on what

34:46

Rome believed then and now than they may be looking for. But the reality is if we look at any of our confessions of faith, if we look at, recently

34:59

I taught through the section on the Lord's Supper in the London Baptist Confession.

35:05

And almost any of the major sections of the London Baptist Confession or the Westminster Confession will have a specific statement, not like the papists say, and the very language is being used, forged in a context of controversy.

35:22

And if you don't know what was believed at that time, then you're not going to really have much of an understanding of why there was such an upon this.

35:30

And the scary part is a lot of people today think that what they believe, they just simply got from the

35:37

Bible. When the reality is they've been deeply influenced by what happened in church history, but they don't know it.

35:44

And if you don't know it, then you're controlled by it. If you don't know history, then what happened in history controls you and you have no way of filtering it out.

35:54

If you know history, then you can see where those influences came from. But unfortunately for most people, well, for most non, well, including

36:04

Roman Catholics, Roman Catholics like to say, we're the champions of church history. You talk to most Roman Catholics, they have no clue about church history, but they will say, you

36:14

Protestants, church history began with Martin Luther for you. In some senses, unfortunately for a lot of Baptists, it actually starts with Billy Graham.

36:21

I mean, let's just be honest with ourselves. That's the reality.

36:28

And so coming to realize that God's actually been building his church amongst people that dress differently than me and that spoke different languages than me.

36:44

That's one of the things I've loved about getting, I've become a world traveler. I mean, I hate to tell you this,

36:50

I'm not sure where we're flying to, but if we go through Heathrow, I'm going to be waiting for you guys because I'm a registered traveler now.

36:59

My passport, EU line, straight on through. I'm going to be speaking at another conference in France just before our tour.

37:07

So I'm getting the shame wag finger from the other room for what

37:12

I just did. I'm speaking at another conference in France just before the tour starts.

37:18

So I'll meet you guys in Berlin. Okay. All right. Well, I don't know.

37:24

I'm sure that Mike is probably going to be watching this, maybe even watching this now. But if Mike really likes me, in fact, if he loves me, and Mike and I have been through a lot together.

37:39

We really have. I've known him longer than you have. Yes, you have. But it's possible that, see, there's this thing on my bucket list, and he knows about it.

37:57

We're going to be close enough. Has he mentioned it to you?

38:04

He has. And I have a game plan of my own as well. Oh, okay. I'm going to be one of those crazy guys that runs alongside, you know?

38:14

Carrying the side? Yeah, yeah. What superhero costume are you going to wear?

38:19

I don't know. I'll just have to... I'll let my son pick it out. Now I've got to tell everybody, because everybody's going, you can't leave something like that blank, because knowing the people who detest me, they'll fill it in with something.

38:31

But I really, really, really want to ride L 'Alpe d 'Huez. L 'Alpe d 'Huez is, of all...

38:41

And the Tour de France is coming up here in a few weeks. And for those of us who are cyclists, Tour de France is a three -week -long

38:47

Super Bowl, which is really cool when you think about it. It's a three -week -long Super Bowl. We just had Giro d 'Italia.

38:53

That was really good. And I actually love the Vuelta a España, which is in August. But the tour is...

39:00

The tour is the tour. And of all the climbs, you've got Mount Ventoux.

39:06

I would love to do Ventoux someday. That would be awesome. And there's just some incredible, incredible climbs.

39:13

But the granddaddy, the one of them all, is the climb of L 'Alpe d 'Huez.

39:21

And we're going to be close enough that maybe, just maybe, I'd have to rent a bike.

39:28

And I'm sure there's lots of places that rent bikes there. But climbing...

39:34

I mean, I even have a program on my iPad where I can climb

39:39

L 'Alpe d 'Huez on video. And since I'm on a smart trainer, so it's

39:46

Bluetooth connected and all the rest of that stuff, it records all that stuff. And it actually puts it on GPS map.

39:51

So when it records up to Strava, it looks like I actually climbed L 'Alpe d 'Huez. It's fake, but it is the actual thing, a

39:59

GPS satellite behind it. But that's not quite the same. iPad is just not quite the same as actually getting to climb

40:07

L 'Alpe d 'Huez. So I would love to have that opportunity. If it doesn't work out, I recognize, you know, that's life.

40:14

But you and I also are going to be doing some preaching on this trip.

40:21

Yes. Some really unique opportunities. I mean, Mike has done a great job. And for those listening that think that, well, you know,

40:28

I could just go and do my own tour through these places. They have no idea of the work that goes into something like this and planning it out.

40:38

And they will not get the opportunities. No, no, no, no. Mike has... Mike, I don't know how he does it, but he has connections that a lot of other people would have no idea.

40:49

And so there are a couple of those places where you're speaking at, you realize that we're going to have to wear the, you know, the appropriate clothing.

41:00

Going back in the ages. So we're going to look a little bit like Calvin. Yeah. Put the gown on.

41:05

Yep, yep, yep, yep. So it's going to be incredible. And people can still sign up and come along with us.

41:13

You would think I would have... Well, obviously, almen .org, there's a big old banner ad and you can click on that, get all the information.

41:21

And I'm sure if you called Sovereign, I'm not sure who you end up talking to. You'd probably rather talk to Kathy than, you know, that other guy that we keep getting stuck with.

41:34

Ryan, Ryan, that's that guy. Poor Ryan. We love Ryan. Ryan is so much fun.

41:43

The last cruise we did, he was on with Mike. But every time

41:50

I try to get Ryan to run with me, it doesn't work. Now, I have pictures of me and Kathy running in London. I've seen that.

41:59

But Ryan just comes up with the most enjoyable reasons as to why he's not going to get out and run.

42:06

Well, in fact, last time we have a picture of me and Kathy running on the bridge where the attack took place.

42:13

Not the last one, but the one before that. Very spot, very spot where it happened. And then

42:19

I took a picture of me selfie at that spot frowning with Big Ben in the background because I was there and they weren't there and I didn't get to run.

42:29

That was one week to the day from that attack, one week in the day. Of course, that was I was running at sunrise.

42:35

Yeah. And I was the only person out there. So any jihadi dumb enough to attack at that point, zero results.

42:44

They don't get up quite that early in the morning. So, yeah. But yeah, so I'm looking forward to it and the opportunities to learn.

42:55

And of course, fellowships can be great and all that kind of stuff, too. But we're really looking forward to it.

43:00

So you've got you've got I'm not sure you want you want to have a competition as to who has the busiest time between now and the next year.

43:08

You will win. There's no doubt. There's no doubt because I've got our stuff. Yeah. But that will be only a matter of weeks after I get back from London and Johannesburg and Durban, which is in August.

43:20

And then we've got Europe in September. In October, I'm doing

43:26

Dallas twice. And then Mike has this conference in Washington in at the beginning of November.

43:33

So other than one trip in December, I might actually be. But this year, I will be out of the country one out of every six days.

43:41

Oh, wow. And that's just that's just we've got to cut that back next year.

43:47

We've just got to cut that back. It doesn't mean I'm not going to go out. But I think we're going to do is we're going to do one mainly teaching trip to Europe.

43:56

And then we're actually going to do we're going to we're actually putting together a global one global trip.

44:03

So Phoenix, London, London, Joburg, Joburg, Sydney.

44:09

Yeah. Possibly New Zealand and then back across. So it would literally be around the globe.

44:15

Yeah. I mean, if you keep it up, you'll be like Steve Lawson. You'll be in a new city with a new group of people getting a picture every day.

44:23

Just about. Yeah, just about. But like I said, his his trip to Wittenberg was a little interesting.

44:30

Yeah. Flame is late.

44:36

And the guy even managed to lose his wedding ring on the flight.

44:41

Oh, wow. I don't know how you do that. Yeah. You take you take the ring off to wash your hands, stick it on something.

44:48

And then I don't. Well, we went to we went to Europe together last year and he showed up without his luggage.

44:58

So that's not good. Did you know? Let me show you when we done here.

45:04

I have I have purchased a luggage tracking device. Mm hmm.

45:10

And I love seeing those. I love landing in Johannesburg. And we are taxiing and my phone goes off.

45:19

It says your luggage is in Johannesburg, South Africa. So now what's really bad is if you land and your luggage is in Paris, France.

45:27

OK, now that's when, you know, 800 miles away, you automatically know, OK, I'm not

45:32

I'm not even going to have to sit there and wait, because the neat thing is not only does it do that, but you can switch over to Bluetooth and it'll say your luggage is 50 feet away, just 40 feet away.

45:40

And then you're just watching. Oh, there it is. That is that is brilliant. I got to admit that is geeky, but it works when you travel.

45:49

You want to know your luggage is actually get there because I've lost I've gone to London and I have to.

45:55

Yeah, I've lost it. Yeah. It's just not a good thing. Well, my wife works for one of the major airlines in the central baggage area.

46:02

And so the first time that my luggage got lost, I call her and she was she had just started doing she got all excited because now she got to get to use the programs, all that stuff.

46:12

I'm like, I'm not nearly as excited as you are. Really, I'm not. But I am. You know, and then a few months later, once you sort of got used to it, her luggage got lost.

46:19

I said, so, dear, you as excited as you were last time. And you know, she wasn't wasn't at all.

46:24

Which device is it's called Luglock, L -U -G -L -O -C. Someone on channel is asking

46:29

Luglock. And it works. I mean, and I forgot to turn it off when I got back this last time. So day before yesterday,

46:37

I get my phone, my phone ping. I'm like, what? It says your Luglock device is in Phoenix and it's only got 10 percent battery left because it's out in the storage room.

46:46

I left it in the in the in the luggage and forgot to turn it off. I was like, oh, OK, I better I better go rescue it from the because you don't want to leave that in the

46:54

Phoenix heat, that's for sure. But they really do work. They're really nice. I would highly recommend it's a it's a minor investment for that that level of peace of mind.

47:03

Oh, absolutely. It really, really, really is. So anyways, so in the few minutes we've got left, what happened with the penal substitutionary atonement thing?

47:17

Did that pass? It did. The thing is these resolutions.

47:24

So I just I just left everybody in the dust there. We just we just left everybody with a with a neck ache. We're sitting here talking about Europe back to the

47:31

Southern Baptist Convention, which is ongoing right now. There was a difference between a resolution and a motion.

47:38

This was something that didn't go through a committee or something. So I guess it's less binding or something. I'm not really sure how it all works on the importance of penal substitutionary atonement.

47:48

Correct. Again, I mean, these the Southern Baptist Convention is extremely it's like a it's like a cruise ship or an aircraft carrier.

48:00

It's just it's it's massive. It's large. It's like it turns very slowly, turns very slowly.

48:08

Takes a lot of gas. It really does. And so there's we could carry this along a lot farther than you want to carry it.

48:15

Probably so. But but, you know, people say, well, you know, if you believe what you believe or the the things within the

48:23

SBC that you don't like, for instance, or that you would criticize, how can you remain in the

48:30

SBC with those particular things happening? I would just say that, number one,

48:37

I've been a Southern Baptist my entire life. I'm not ashamed to be a

48:42

Southern Baptist. But what I would say is that, again, it's like a massive family reunion.

48:49

And so you have the crazy uncles that show up and you just don't you know, you get your plate and you don't want to sit down next to them or, you know, it's kind of like a game.

48:59

It's like you're going to watch where he sits so that you don't have to end up sitting next to that individual. And that's the way that the

49:05

SBC works. But they always end up at a microphone. Very interesting definition of unity.

49:12

Yes. Well, I mean, we are family, but we don't always get along with everyone.

49:20

And that's just the way it works. But, you know, resolutions. So the Southern Baptist Convention has a long history of having resolutions and recommitments and things of that nature on various different things.

49:31

There was actually another one on the Reformation, actually, this year. And just going back to, yeah,

49:39

I mean, but again, it's encouraging to at least see that the convention, a lot of people throw rocks at the

49:46

SBC because, again, it's really easy. It's a big target. The crazy uncles stand out above everyone else usually.

49:54

And again, you have a lot of politics involved in the SBC. But that being said, a focus on a recommitment to stand on the principles of the

50:06

Reformation and to stand on the doctrine of substitutionary atonement is a very good thing.

50:13

The problem is, I don't really think that that's possible. For instance, how do you have a resolution that upholds substitutionary atonement?

50:23

And then you have this weird vein of, quote unquote, traditionalists that would not necessarily stand lockstep on the doctrine of substitution.

50:35

But even one of the authors of that is a traditionalist. Correct. So we would look at that and we would go, okay, but the only way to consistently hold that is if you recognize the personal nature of the union of the elect with Christ.

50:52

But that kind of connectivity, it just isn't there.

50:57

Yeah, I mean, you know as well as I do, anytime you're debating or talking about anything as far as theology goes, it's all about definitions and it's all about what dictionary that you're using.

51:09

So the problem is one of these people might be using one set of terms and definitions, whereas someone else is using a different dictionary altogether.

51:18

Yeah, most definitely. Well, so did you go to the Connect 316 breakfast this morning?

51:24

I was actually busy and wasn't able to make that one. Oh, okay, yeah.

51:30

Because someone had suggested to me that I should gate crash that one, because that would have made it the most memorable

51:36

Connect 316 breakfast ever. Yeah, I mean,

51:41

I did suggest that we do this interview, live interview at the convention.

51:49

It would have gotten quite the interesting audience, but we don't really have the facilities to do that.

51:55

And I think we would have had to have requested that a long time ago. And I don't know how positively the reaction,

52:03

I'm not sure what kind of positive reaction we would have gotten. You know, I think that the Southern Baptist Convention is very diverse, and so I thought it was a wonderful opportunity for you guys to join the

52:14

SBC this year. I didn't know that parachurch ministries can...

52:22

No, you and your church can join. You know, I think my fellow elders might have really some questions about that.

52:32

We're not big in joining stuff. But again, I mean, people do ask and they say, you know, why is it that you would stick around in an

52:41

SBC? And they ask me, and then they ask a lot of the younger pastors that might be more sympathetic with the things that I'm passionate about.

52:50

And I would just say, you work with who you can work with. And I see a lot of people, I see a lot of things that I could sit here and complain about within the

52:58

SBC. But then on the other side of the fence, just to be balanced,

53:04

I see some really healthy things as well. So I really appreciate what

53:10

I see happening at Southern Seminary with Al Mohler. I really appreciate what I see happening with, you know,

53:15

Tom Askell and Founders Ministries. I appreciate what I see happening with Nine Marks Ministries and the emphasis on discipleship and Mark Dever.

53:24

So there's lots of people that I can work with and that I can help support and just, you know, try to cooperate with who

53:33

I can work with and try to further an agenda that would bring about health. Did you hear anything about,

53:39

I saw some pictures of some billboards downtown.

53:47

Yeah. Was there any talk about the homosexual issue?

53:53

Yeah. I mean, there were driving mobile billboards that were just circling the blocks.

53:59

One of them was like 40 percent or 48 percent. I can't remember the stat, but of all teens in homeless shelters are

54:12

LGBTQ. And again, I mean, you just throw these stats out and it's like someone said, well, what's that trying to say?

54:19

I guess it's saying that we should be more sympathetic. It's our fault. We're pushing these people that direction. But at the end of the day,

54:26

I mean, you can twist a stat to say almost anything you want it to say. So, but again, these people show up.

54:33

There's always going to be someone showing up to stand out and protest. Well, especially this particular, you know, this particular time period in our nation's history, in our cultural decline, there had been a fair amount of discussion of these folks showing up and trying to, in essence, shame anybody who would not be a part of the

54:57

LGBTQ revolution. And in light of what's been going on in Ottawa, in Illinois recently, where, you know, in Ottawa, your children can be taken from you if you're not on board with the revolution.

55:16

It's just unbelievable what's going on. It just seems like that's going to become a regular part.

55:24

And I just wonder, have there been resolutions or, you know, may not want to play around with the

55:39

Baptist faith and message, but does the Baptist faith and message have a strong, clear enunciation of what marriage is, what human sexuality is, that God creates man, male and female.

55:54

These are good things. Transgenderism is now the cause celeb, and you have to accept gender fluidity and all the rest of this stuff.

56:04

If it's not there, you'll be getting hit right, left and center. I'm sure that we'll see, you know, a discussion that will eventually happen, you know, related to that issue in the future that would be to beef it up some.

56:18

But even with us, you know, in our local church, we've had to amend our bylaws to add statements about, you know, family and human sexuality just to protect us, because we want to be very clear.

56:33

We are not an affirming church on any level. And that goes with any of the things that we do as a church.

56:40

So we have, you know, various different ministries, and we don't want people coming in thinking that they can just sign up to help.

56:46

This is not a humanitarian type of organization here. This is a local church, and we have certain doctrinal convictions and beliefs.

56:54

And we have these governing documents that we can put our finger on and say, this is who we are.

57:02

And, you know, yes, we love people and we want to tell people of the hope that we have in Jesus Christ, obviously.

57:08

But at the same time, just for legalities, we have to be very clear as to where we stand on these things.

57:14

It's just painfully obvious that these groups want to force the issue by trying to become involved in something like this.

57:29

We had a few at G3. Just outside.

57:34

Didn't know if any had shown up for the convention. Any big gathering is going to attract all sorts of folks. That's just the way it's going to be.

57:41

Well, Josh, thank you very much. Happy birthday. Enjoy your wonderful gift.

57:49

Did you keep the, because he may not want to eat it now, but I mean, you're probably going to have to eat that.

57:56

But appreciate your stopping by. And it's, I guess we'll be seeing you in just a matter of weeks.

58:03

And if everybody wants to come along, make sure to hit the websites, get the information, join us on the

58:11

Reformation tour. And what? That camera or that camera or that?

58:19

It doesn't matter. Thanks for joining us on the Divine Line today. We'll see you next time.