The "And" Movement, Abortion & Social Justice, then Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, & WL Craig

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Greetings welcome to the dividing line on the program today. I want to briefly touch on a video that just Dropped I think yesterday.

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I attempted to download it couldn't log in for some reason I don't know why so I'll have to play it off off the live feed

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But this is from what's called the and campaign and It will help us

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I think to think through some things There's just so much of this in our in our experience, you know yesterday for example,

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I Attempted to have a conversation with a brother on Twitter and He had been posting a number of tweets that were filled with social justice language with a a lot of the

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What I would consider to be historical revisionism Emphasizing certain aspects of history ignoring other aspects of history

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Reading history through a lens that is meant to promote a particular Response today and so I asked a simple question

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I asked The individual who's black at least according to what was on the screen sometimes you can't tell but Does he believe there's such a thing as Black racism that there are race that there are blacks who experience the sin of racism and could he give me some examples?

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I only asked the question for one simple reason as A Christian and the man claims to be a

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Christian It is obvious and plain That if it is a sin, then it is the common malady of all of mankind

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If we look at the sin of pride We can see men and women of every ethnicity and every possible background

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Engaging in pride If it's anger same thing sexual lust same thing murderous intent in the heart same thing and So if racism is a sin then every individual

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Can partake of that sin? For example, you might say well, how could someone who is super rich?

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How could they for example Experience envy well some most envious people ever met were the super rich Well, but you need to have power no

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Not at all You can have hatred in your heart for somebody else based solely upon their race no matter what color your skin is so the whole reason

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I asked the question is That if someone responds that question by saying there is no such thing that I know

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I'm talking to someone who's functioning Completely on a worldly basis. They're not functioning on a biblical basis at all.

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So I have to make a decision Do I even want to invest the time? I'm talking with a religious person

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But a person who does not have a sound biblical foundation

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If they come back and say of course, well now we can Discuss the biblical concept of racism and differentiate it from the redefined

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Weaponized version that is thrown about With such abandon today that it has no meaning.

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It just simply means you're not progressive enough. That's all it means It has no meaningful connection to any biblical categories at all.

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It's just you're not as progressive as I am. Therefore you're racist And of course it is has lost any meaningful opprobrium

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That should be attached to the term as a result. This is one of the many many instances where our language is

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Being turned against us By those who are seeking through the use of critical theory to chip out

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From the wall that forms the very substance of our culture That which binds the bricks together

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So they can all fall into a heap and be rebuilt into something else and I can assure you when it's rebuilt into something else

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It'll be rebuilt by people who don't care about liberty or freedom or justice in any meaningful

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Categories whatsoever. And so unfortunately the brother would not answer my question

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He would only respond with lengthy tweets about the interaction of historical

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Forces and terms of oppression and stuff like that and I I wanted to I so wanted to respond going so You really think if you asked an apostle of something if someone could commit a sin that they'd respond as you responded?

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No, they wouldn't have but I didn't I I just said, okay. Have a nice day so no matter what we say today and as I recall

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I had responded to oh I forget the tweet that I had responded to but it just seems like Everywhere we turn today, even when we're just simply trying to do what we've always done

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Trying to be a light in a dark world We now run into those who would necessitate a particular pinch of incense on the altar to Caesar And you must prove your woke bona fides for example,

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I saw yesterday a video that has been put together from Clips from the campus crusade now called crew the campus crusade leadership a meeting that took place over the summer and It was a woke fest it was

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Wokeness to the nth degree and At one point this this poor lady

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She's in a breakout session or something and she asks the question we even we even did the

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DNA genealogy stuff and Nobody in our family has ever been involved with slavery

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So, but I'm I'm still being told that that you know there I I have to repent of this and the speaker of course as well, but you know you

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You've had privilege you have privilege and I Thought about playing that section and then putting the picture of my great -great -great grandparents on the screen

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Sitting outside their mud hut in Broken Bow, Nebraska Scratching a poverty existence out of the soil had nothing

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Maybe telling the stories of my my grandmother We'd go out each summer to help fix up her house and take care of stuff and she lived out

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Kinsley, Kansas. She was a widow where my Grandfather had passed away. Thanks to a drunk doctor when he when my when he was about what my dad was about 14 15

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Something like that, maybe 16, I forget anyway and you know we could

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You want to talk privilege baloney? Sorry, it's just baloney There are

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There are so many holes and those holes have been documented By people that no one wants to read anymore

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Such as Thomas Oh But that's what they were told. This is you know, okay, so your family didn't your family may not have been involved but we now believe in critical theory and so you're a part of the people who are the oppressors and Therefore there is no redemption for this.

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So it's a constant treadmill of penances for you the rest of your life That's that's all that The woke gospel can bring it was sad it was sad to see well the video

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I want to show you is very very interesting and that is

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I Just saw it for the first time this morning and I caught a few things and I've watched it a couple times since then

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I I can't Do a full response to it since I only saw it this morning only had time to get it queued up There's going to be more and I did talk to the powers that be and There will be a full

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Response for example by the folks that end abortion now To stuff like this and I'm sure they're not the only ones this is going

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The one thing about this video is it's going to start a lot of conversation And that's good thing if the conversation can be can include

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Criticism Unfortunately in our day I can pretty much guarantee you that if you do not

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Immediately embrace The perspective of the and campaign that you will be

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Identified as the the radicals and the troublemakers and the non woke people that you are etc, etc so it's called the heart of the matter and It is an attempt to say yes

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There are basically what it's saying is both sides in the abortion debate have valid concerns and so we need to address abortion in Such a fashion as to Utilize social justice categories

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In our solution and of course this this raises the whole issue of what?

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again social justice is and The fact that there is a widening chasm in the reality of categories of biblical justice

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Versus the category of social justice, which is simply becoming another way of saying not equality, but equity

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There is there is all the difference in the world Between saying that because men and women are creating the image of God that there needs to be equality of opportunity when you go to promoting equity

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Which is where? Everyone pretty much functions at the same level And everybody pretty much has the same opportunities in life

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Not not not opportunities for advancement But you penalize those who are gifted

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You penalize those whose parents for example may be thrifty and Save money so that they can do things their children over against those who just simply run up the credit card bills

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You penalize those who have a higher IQ than the rest of us you penalize those who have a greater

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Physical ability you've heard about ableism now Where you know if you've got two arms two legs and they work real well.

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Well, that's privilege Etc etc That kind of equity

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Never leads to equity obviously but it is the driving force amongst amongst many today and it leads to Degradate the degradation of society

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It's not biblical. God makes men to differ God gives gifts to men and I wasn't gonna get into this but you know when

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I when I look at those pictures of My ancestors and I think upon my own upbringing

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I was the farthest thing from my mind Would ever be to be jealous of or to harbor hatred toward Someone who had more than I did

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I Remember this one I think his name was

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Mark Before we moved here to Arizona. We lived in Pennsylvania. Mark was a friend of mine and As we were packing up to move out here his family was kind enough to have me over and We had corn the cob and stuff like that Though corn the cob anywhere outside of Kinsley, Kansas was never as good as in Kinsley, Kansas, which is in the middle of cornfield

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When it's fresh off the cob man, I'm gonna tell you something. There's just there is nothing like it Oh Drenched in butter and salt and pepper.

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Anyways, okay, we're gonna finish so now so I can go to Sunday. Um, no but They were much better off than we were

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I mean they had a big house and and it was up on you know I had all this this land, you know around it and and Multistories and we rented a single story little box

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He didn't have much but it never crossed my mind to Complain about the privilege that somebody else had and there were

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Asians and blacks and Hispanics there weren't many Hispanics in that area but Asians and blacks who had more than we did and again, it just wasn't

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We were not soaked in Victimhood mentality that it's all oppression and all the rest of that stuff and I'll be honest with you it

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Let leads to a significantly happier life When you are not running around constantly thinking about Your problems are due to everybody else's privilege.

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I Cannot see how comes someone can possibly live a happy fulfilled life of contentment

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When that is what you're constantly thinking I don't see how it's possible. I think it will diminish a person's

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Lifespan, I really do. I Think contentment is one of the greatest things that can expand a person's lifespan

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Now if you're unhappy, you may not want to have a long lifespan. Anyways, I suppose but if if you know,

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I think Contentment is a wonderful thing and critical theory has no place for contentment

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There can be no contentment in that worldview just there's just no place for it at all.

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So anyway this video seeks to Strike a middle via media and Say it needs to be both and that's the and campaign now

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I Okay, I'm not going to prejudice your mind at this point but I at one point

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One of the ladies says both sides are leaving out crucial aspects and I want you to think as You listen to this video.

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I think it's six minutes long. But as you listen to this video What asked I agree with her?

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But this video leaves out some key aspects of this topic and That's why it's valuable for us to think about it, so let's take a look at this video and Hopefully it will work for us here abortion is not some crazy weird

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Last resort for me in particular Because I did have two abortions as a young woman

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I feel that my ability to access that kind of medical care Made it possible for me to live out my dreams and do what

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I really wanted to do with my life Clinton recently joined forces with the show your abortion campaign all human life is precious

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Where's the money coming from to support? People who aren't ready to be mothers or aren't financially stable to take care of a child.

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You simply cannot Deferred protecting lives of unborn children because of cost it's a law that's designed to end rovers

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What if we're being provided with two wrong answers as Christians? We have to frame this issue for ourselves

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And we have to make sure that we're being faithful to God and loving to our communities There are polarizing voices shouting on both sides of this issue on one side

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There are progressives who argue for a woman's choice on the other conservatives who argue for the life of the unborn child

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But both sides are leaving out crucial aspects of the reality of abortion one speaks to the heart of women's struggles

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Women who often feel oppressed controlled and victimized by men Desire sexual autonomy in a society that has a history of shaming women

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They want the freedom to choose the outcome of their own lives The other side speaks on behalf of a child who's voiceless who's not yet born yet still very much alive

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Valuable and deserves the right to develop and grow in their mother's womb Amongst all the shouts neither side is listening to the other and neither side answers with the holistic approach to the problem while Progressives advocate for the rights and protection of women.

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They do this at the expense of her child and family helping a woman to abort her child does not solve her problems, but it can often cause more a significant amount of women who undergo abortions

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Report mental distress and anguish after having the procedure While some conservative voters and policymakers fight for women to go through with unplanned pregnancies

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They often fight against social policies that make it possible for these women to care for their children and themselves

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Neither the progressive nor the conservative answer lives up to the gospel call The Bible demands a framework that includes both compassion and conviction

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The gospel calls us to a sincere compassion for human life and advocates for human flourishing from the womb to the tomb

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The gospel calls us to recognize the vulnerability of unborn babies and their mothers

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Mothers who often find themselves making hard decisions that impact the rest of their lives

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This is what the and campaign is here to do to help the church Approach and think through this issue with a biblical framework and to be able to do so confidently by answering questions concerning abortion

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We the and campaign we do this by providing a new narrative a gospel -centered perspective that is both pro -woman and pro -child

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Women If you have ever considered or had an abortion God still loves you.

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The church should be here to support you and not shame you God will take your hurts your mistakes and even something that seems

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Unwanted and make it beautiful He redeems We also refuse to disregard the struggles of women with crisis pregnancies without thoughtful social policies

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Women are often left without resources and opportunities to care for their children and themselves Which causes them to falsely believe that abortion is their best option

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Overlooked by medical professionals The health disparities amongst black women leave us three to four times more likely to die from childbirth related causes

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This is a fact that continues to be ignored by the traditional pro -life community When black women who have chosen to carry their child to full term are still at risk of death

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We must lead with the more compassionate posture and provide a community of support to these mothers who are faced with such bleak realities

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Despite some extreme policies of the prominent voices in the pro -life movement as Christians We cannot pretend the child doesn't exist

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Even before his or her birth the heartbeat is real The movements are real and the baby is a human being made in God's image the child is alive

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Being pro -life based on the gospel requires us to be more than anti -abortion It requires us to be true to our convictions of being a voice for the voiceless babies while also being a community of support for the women the mothers engaging with sincere love and Understanding and compassion of Christ because at the heart of the matter is life

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Okay, so obviously very well very well produced very well done along those lines

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But hopefully you were listening carefully to everything that was being said and how it was being said and What was being joined to what?

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And My biggest concern There was there's obviously in Those who are seeking to end the plague and scourge of abortion there has been exhibited a great willingness to support women and to adopt babies

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Etc, etc But notice All of these conversations, where do they start?

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They don't start at the beginning They start given a certain reality and then all of our options are limited by Where the conversation begins?

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There was Not only nothing positively stated

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Concerning God's law and his revelation concerning human sexuality but there was positive statement that in essence dismisses abortion as a mistake

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Not as the murder of a child, but as simply a mistake now what obviously there are many

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Motivations represented as you look at The women going into an abortion clinic on any one given day but over the past number of Well years, but especially

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I can think of just over the past couple months There have been numerous examples provided of the fact that Not only are the large majority of abortions not

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Due to any type of physical danger or anything along those lines.

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They are abortions of convenience but the picture of the woman who designed a tattoo

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That she then put on a woman's body where her uterus would be of a baby being stabbed in the head and Then saying that this was the most beautiful tattoo she had ever done

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They know They know what they're doing They know that they are extinguishing a life when you have pro -abortion advocates on a bus singing songs

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About throw the fetus in the trash can and things like this They know what they're doing

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The majority of the people promoting this movement love death and The positive words that they use so for example

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Martha Plumpton at the beginning Access that kind of medical care.

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I just wonder if The Nazi doctors at Nuremberg When asked about Zyklon B which was the gas used to kill people en masse in the

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Destruction of Jews and others in the concentration camps at toward the end of World War two in Nazi, Germany, I I just wonder what the response would have been if they had referred to that As we were simply accessing that kind of medical care

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So that we could live out our dreams That's what she said Those are quotes from what she said if I hadn't been able to access that kind of medical care

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I could not have lived out my dreams This kind of pandering to absolute human autonomy

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Combined with a complete ignoring of God's law Could anyone even?

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Seriously make an appeal in our society today That would utilize the biblical term

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Fornication I'm not even sure how many people left in our society know what it is or Could define it but the idea of sexual sin is now a heresy in our society the

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Great new dogma of The United States of America and Great Britain and France and Germany all the

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European Union except maybe Hungary and Poland is specifically

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Sexual autonomy and the term appeared Was used in this video at one point one of the women talking about how women have been oppressed and victimized and How they want their own sexual autonomy nothing was said about the father

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Nothing was said about marriage Nothing was said about fornication

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Nothing was said about God's law You did have social justice categories oppression victimization

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You had that type of stuff, but that old -fashioned stuff which is

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Absolutely necessary if we're gonna have any grounding whatsoever in biblical revelation

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Was completely gone. It was just wasn't there. It's not a part of what was being said. And so I Would suggest that it is impossible

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To have a to on the one hand talk about the compassion of Christ and on the other hand utilize categories of social justice thinking that are based upon a worldview that Transfigures The compassion of Christ into mere sentimentality because again when you talk about Christian compassion the compassion of Jesus it is toward repentant sinners

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It is focused upon his own redemptive act Which brings about a peculiar people?

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Who are formed unto holiness? Not unto sexual autonomy

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His compassion forms of people who Reject the whole concept of sexual autonomy

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God gets to say how that's supposed to work and how that's supposed to be exercised

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That's why there there can be no such thing as Christian transgenderism and Likewise, there is no such thing as Christian homosexuality either

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Because Those issues have to be defined within the concept of scripture and scriptures revelation on these things clear and in the same way in this context

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Once you begin at the point of Dealing with the results of sin

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Then you are Limited in where you can go from there there has to be

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If our message is going to be full and clear there has to be

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The reality of the wrath of God against Sexual sin which includes against sex outside of marriage and Many of us upon hearing that Automatically go that will never work today.

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It's too late. Maybe it is for this society Maybe this society has been given over to its own destruction

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But that doesn't change the reality that the only way to give a real Christian perspective and Solution is to start at the beginning

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The image of God was mentioned Primarily within the context of the child But what was missing is the adults are made in the image of God, which means that they can control their sexual desires

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That they're not just animals That they don't have sexual autonomy God's law defines the proper

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Utilization in that field and If you don't start there

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There is even a Statement that Our society shames women for what?

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I mean a meaningful society doesn't shame women it exalts women and protects women, but it also protects them through the institution of marriage and Holding men accountable to the marriage

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Contract the marriage covenant we have completely abandoned that so It's one thing to say the but the child is made in the image of God child is

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That's why it's murder to kill that that baby but You can't wed that to a worldview that basically then denies that the adults are made in the image of God and therefore have

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Responsibilities and capacities and abilities and That that means that they are subject to God's law.

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It seems to me that there is such an inherent antinomianism in evangelicalism in the

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West That we just have a we get a fever when we try to bring any element of the moral law to bear and hence

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Major portions just won't do it. And so you you had

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Unplanned pregnancies You had God can redeem mistakes

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Rather than Categories of repentance Brokenness Any kind of sound

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Christian worldview there and here's the problem These folks may have the the greatest motivations in the world

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Here's what church history tells you every time Christians try

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To wed a Christian worldview that they may be committed to With the perspectives of the world that are popular at that point in time.

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What is the inevitable result? Sometimes sooner sometimes later, but always inevitable

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Which predominates over the other? Union theological seminary.

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That's all I've got to say That didn't happen overnight But now look at it it's it's

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It's the the the zombie seminary the Walker seminary Still got the decaying body still got the buildings

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But there's there's there's nobody home anymore as far as the Christians concerned that is what takes place when you try when you make the effort and When there is a fundamental

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Embarrassment about what The word demands of us because what the word demands of us here is that we have to talk about sexual purity and we have to Talk about man made in the image of God, which means that there are responsibilities that come with that created status

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And there are sexual responsibilities and the nature of marriage and all the other things that go with it so Like I said, there's all sorts of other stuff that that needs to be gotten into there all sorts of other issues there is one line by the way that I I Think anyone else who's planning on doing a full review?

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Someone needs to write to the movement sponsors Writers something

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I've listened to it three times and I don't get it. It was something along the lines of Despite the extreme policies of prominent voices in the pro -life movement

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We have to view the child as a living child or something along those lines

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I Expected something different as the you know protests hypothesis of a conditional statement and I Didn't get it.

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I'd like to know when when when the the larger lady looking to her left

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That's I don't know who the individuals are Sorry, the names were not names at the end, but it wasn't put on the when the person speaking

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She's looking to her left and she says something about the extreme policies of the prominent voices in the pro -life movement

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I would like to know who that is What is what is being referenced there because I don't get it. It went right past me

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I think I understood everything else that part. I did not I did not get so I have a feeling you're gonna see a lot more discussion of that particular

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Video I think it deserves to be discussed. I Think that's an appropriate thing.

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Okay Put the clutch in put it way in while you're shifting gears just a reminder

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Some of the group is already headed up to Salt Lake City. In fact, some are been there for a couple days now already

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Um, which means there are people already going out the temple and Talking with people on the streets and things like that doing doing evangelism before everything gets really crazy

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Next weekend is conference weekend first full weekend in October first full weekend in April.

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That's why it's been for a long long time and Starting Thursday evening

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We've got an incredible schedule lined out and for me literally Literally right to about a week and a half before Christmas Christmas is gonna be here real fast really really fast

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Thursday night Jeff Durbin and I will be debating two atheists including dr.

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Clark Who if you look up Utah atheists look up dr.

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Clark you can Understand the challenge we're going to have there my both of us are praying that dr.

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Clark will be considerably less Volatile than he has been in certain contexts in the past But we'll be debating the triune

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God of Christian scripture lives Two -on -two debate up there at the

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University of Utah then on Friday evening dialogue with Alma Allred On basically on what is truth

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The fact that reminds me well, I hope I remember that I need to need to take

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I want to Take that LDS translation with me the New Testament get some more time to look at That will also be at the

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University of Utah and then Saturday morning outreach at the general conference

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Saturday evening a debate between myself and Lee Baker Whose 15

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Examples of Alleged changes or errors in the

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Bible we dealt with a few weeks ago on the program You know where it was someone deceptively did this and deceptively did that and and so on so forth we've limited that to six specific texts that we need to be looking at and That's on Saturday evening

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Sunday morning preaching there at the OPC in Magna, Utah coming back on Monday and then leaving on Tuesday for Australia and The debates down there

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Teaching so on so forth. So we have a Major period of time coming up and I I don't know if any of these are going to be live streamed

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Facebook live anything like that You know, especially high capacity

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Streaming sessions are extremely expensive. Most people don't realize that and most people go.

41:58

Oh, I'm just simply turn my phone on go to Facebook Yeah, and we've all seen what happens that you can't hear things

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It's like if you've got a really good streaming with with in other words they're connected into the sound system and it's high -quality video and Having a hundred people isn't crashing it.

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That's costing some big bucks To be able to do that. And so that's not always an option in in things like this, but There you go.

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So anyway Please pray for the upcoming outreach. I I don't think

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I Could be wrong, but I just don't think the one day I'm home. We're gonna be able to sneak a program in we'll see

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And of course It's hard to do programs from Australia the

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Time difference is just so extreme It's 17 hours

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So it's like 17 hours behind but one day ahead So it's it's a seven.

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It's a seven hour. We're seven hours behind So, you know like right now it would be what for Think about 443 in the morning tomorrow in Australia So yeah, something like that.

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It's it's weird. It makes it sort of difficult. All right with that I Was directed to a recent posting of a

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Reasonable faith episode with William Lane Craig And I thought it would be worthwhile to just listen to the beginning of this and and make some comments in regards to What is apologetics what why do we do apologetics?

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And This is subject. We've obviously discussed from every different angle at some point in the past I mean how many thousands of hours have we spent on this program doing apologetics?

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What is the context that allows us to even define what it is and How many times have

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I said that our theology Has to determine our apologetics not the other way around Our apologetic

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Cannot exist separately from our theology. It is an extension of our theology has to be consistent with our theology it has our theology has to provide us with the

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Why do we do this? What we need to have a positive explanation

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Other than I just love arguing with people on Facebook Or When I was younger on a

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BBS system I just can't wait for the new messages to come in in the Mormon echo so I can blast the

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Mormons They're unfortunately our people and have that motivation Why do we do apologetics?

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How does it relate to evangelism? These are issues that we all need to think through and our theology impacts these things

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So let's let's listen in to some of the program and and make some comments

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What I have noticed in what she talks about here. Is that Okay, there is they're reviewing an article

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That asks the question Has apologetics failed basically, a lot of people say well look at this a

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Christian apologetic seems to be failing because two Non -christians these days are being used to bring people back into the fold or bringing people to Christ a young Jewish man

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Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson, you know, so so so this is what people are asking is in light of the popularity of Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson Does that mean that Christian apologetics has failed?

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and I think you can immediately Realize there's some major category issues here and you really do have to ask the question well

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Failed at what? What's it supposed to be doing? If what

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Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro do Is Christian apologetics and neither one are

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Christians? Then to even contemplate this shows a complete separation between apologetics and theology and apologetics in the gospel

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Who's responsible for that kind of thinking? What gives why is it that they're having all the success and actually pointing people to Christianity?

47:07

That's what's so strange about it Bill and I have kind of noticed that Phenomenon, it's almost like it's an incidental thing that it it's gotten young men in particular

47:18

Yes, the two of these guys interested in spiritual things interested in God actually coming to Christ some of them and Both Jordan Peters what coming to Christ in what way?

47:31

How can they hear without a preacher Well reading

47:36

Jordan Peterson's book and cleaning up your room is not going to lead you to repentance and faith in Jesus and Ben Shapiro's not gonna do that either because it doesn't believe

47:47

Jesus is the Messiah They died and rose again and is coming to judge living the dead. So How how does?

47:55

Is what being said? They help prepare someone who then upon hearing the gospel gets saved

48:03

It's hard to say, yes, I have an inconvenient question Wasn't it wasn't it wasn't

48:09

Ben Shapiro who oh, yeah interviewed Bill Craig, right? I'll talk about it.

48:18

It's an and Ben Shapiro use reason and logic which is part and parcel of apologetics

48:24

So, I don't know what the beef is here, right? It is interesting to see how effective

48:31

These folks are in reaching out to non -believers, it seems like perhaps

48:38

Effective reaching out to non -believers to what end Are we talking about political change

48:51

Modification maybe of a of some elements of a world what is

48:58

What is success here? Really really important for us to be thinking about and certainly central for any of us that deal with apologetics you have to have a meaningful biblical basis for saying this is successful apologetics

49:17

Non -believers are put off by People like myself who are

49:23

Christian apologists and perhaps therefore

49:29

Biased and they like the kind of open exploratory approach of a

49:34

Jordan Peterson better perhaps But I would distinguish I think

49:39

Kevin in this regard between apologetics and evangelism as I've explained in my

49:46

Book reasonable faith. I think that apologetics is primarily a theoretical discipline it's like physics or Chemistry or history.

49:59

It's a theoretical discipline that seeks to answer the question. What is the rational justification?

50:06

for Christian truth claims by contrast evangelism is the attempt to persuasively

50:14

Present the gospel so as to draw people into a relationship with Christ Okay, so here again really is

50:25

Where theology matters There is a distinction being made here that I think ends up being extremely important to understanding how

50:38

Bill Craig understands even what success in apologetics is Now he would agree with me

50:45

That part of the function of apologetics is to strengthen the faith of Christians As Well as to clear

50:58

Landmines barriers objections For the presentation of the gospel.

51:04

I don't think we would have a debate over that but Obviously I see a significantly more organic relationship between evangelism and apologetics and he does for him if the apologist produces philosophically sound arguments for the existence of God The apologist has been successful whether anybody believes it or not doesn't matter if you've

51:43

Produced the arguments that are sound then you've done what apologetics is

51:49

Now obviously for me you are successful as an apologist When you proclaim

51:57

Christ Lordship over all of humanity in Such a way as to bring that claim into direct conflict with all those systems beliefs doctrines religions that would deny

52:14

Christ Lordship and so that Necessitates the gospel aspect

52:25

It's not saying that You don't have to consider the clarity of your presentation or The issues of induction and issues like that that that you have to deal with in analyzing certain of the philosophical systems predominant amongst

52:48

Americans today and that kind of stuff. No you you do do all of that, but you are a successful apologist when

52:56

God is glorified in the proclamation of his truth and That truth is derivative from the essence of biblical revelation

53:06

It's not I don't think you're successful when you just simply Publish a paper that no one's ever going to read and it makes no meaningful

53:15

Argument whatsoever that would cause someone to consider the claims of Christ and so Theology matters what you believe matters if you believe that we are called to give a defense of faith to be instruments in God's hand for the establishment of his kingdom is self -glorification the drawing of a particular people unto himself his elect people and to their edification and That we are used by God to make the gospel

53:51

So clear That the unbeliever Can be judged for their rejection thereof

53:59

That's not normally a part of what most people think apologetics does but sort of hard to read Romans chapter 1 without coming to that conclusion the

54:07

Clarity of God's revelation in nature renders man unapologetic without an apology

54:13

When we then have special revelation in scripture and bring that to bear with clarity that only increases

54:24

The culpability of the person who rejects that message Well, we do that To be used of God to bring people in But we have to recognize

54:37

You know, it's the old It's the old story We will see tracks on the ground

54:44

We'll have tracks torn up spit on they'll have footprints all over him once we're walking away

54:49

We pick him up and put him in the trash can Some people rip him up in our faces

54:57

That's all of that has happened to us and We developed early on The positive attitude was saying well, there's a fallen warrior

55:07

Not oh what a waste wasn't a waste There's there's never a situation where you seek to honor

55:15

God and it ends up being a waste That's just that's just not that's just not the case.

55:21

So just a little bit more here and evangelism will use and draw upon apologetics in Presenting and Defending the gospel, but it's not the same thing as Apologetics apologetics is a theoretical discipline

55:40

Evangelism is a practical form of outreach or ministry. So the fact that people like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson are more effective in drawing people

55:54

Toward Christ or the kingdom Howard but but Toward Christ the kingdom

56:01

How how are either one of them drawing someone toward dying to self and taking up their cross?

56:10

See, this is where theology matters Does Jesus get to define what it means to be drawn to him

56:19

Does he get to define what it means to follow him or? Is it well, you know, hey

56:26

Maybe they're just more willing to listen to general arguments for theism. That's not the same thing as following Christ That's what just left me going but what what is this all about isn't a failure of the theoretical discipline

56:43

Apologetics if anything, it would be a failure of the practical discipline evangelism

56:48

Namely, we're not doing our evangelism as Effectively, we need to adopt perhaps a more invitational and exploratory approach like Jordan Peterson Than a preaching and dogmatic approach than a preaching or dogmatic approach now there

57:14

I Don't think that bill purposely was utilizing that language, but it came out anyways

57:24

The message preached is Is foolishness to the world

57:30

But to those who are chosen by God It's the power of God in the salvation so It sounds like he and I don't think he intended to do this, but it sounds like what he just said was hey, maybe the questioning open

57:50

Approach of a Jordan Peterson where there's no dogma, you know when he says you should be disciplined in your life

57:59

Well, it's not because you're made in the image of God and God's gonna hold you accountable for that But hey, it might might improve your life

58:08

You know this thankfulness thing, you know Might lower your brother your blood pressure

58:16

Well Again, we're left to go. Well what makes You know, there are elements of truth sown by common grace in What Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro is saying because why because they're borrowing from the

58:32

Christian worldview Everyone, you know looks at Ben and they go. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh missed it.

58:38

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah Oh missed it Why because there is that? Christocentric element missing because he doesn't believe

58:45

Jesus the Messiah and rose again the third day the same thing with Jordan Peterson You know, we pray for Jordan Peters.

58:51

There are many people praying for Jordan Peterson He knows that he has had to check himself into rehab. He got hooked on on pain meds

58:59

His his wife has had physical issues Self -reformation isn't enough

59:09

There has to be regeneration and So we we look at this and and to me

59:17

I'm just sitting here going How is the term success being defined here on what basis

59:27

And I'll close with this We as believers. I mean, it's it's simple enough for me to sit here and say

59:36

We as believers need to define our success in light of Scripture, but how do you do that?

59:44

What what does it mean to be successful? scripturally Because when you look at the

59:53

Apostle Paul, yeah The church grew greatly during that time period but it also began to experience persecution there were divisions in the church and All but one of the

01:00:06

Apostles by tradition got themselves killed so There obviously has to be a different definition of success than anything the world would offer to us and Certainly YouTube views likes on Facebook are not meaningful indicators of success and Moral deistic therapy

01:00:33

Where you make people Just be better on their way to hell

01:00:40

Isn't success either There is a radical nature

01:00:47

To the call of Christ take up your cross deny yourself take up your cross and follow me and That's not the message of Ben Shapiro.

01:00:55

That's not the message or Jordan Peterson Now Jordan Peterson may say something along the lines of if you find

01:01:02

Fulfillment in that if that gives you soundness of mind if that gives you discipline

01:01:09

If that even makes you thankful Then great wonderful do that But that's not enough and that's not

01:01:18

Christianity and to confuse it with Christianity and to say well Yeah, they're they're being used of God to draw people to Jesus.

01:01:26

Hey, God can use all sorts of things and if God uses

01:01:32

Jordan Peterson to get you to stop thinking like a complete reprobate long enough to consider the claims of the gospel

01:01:39

Great that doesn't make what he's doing evangelism or apologetics either one and So the first thing is

01:01:50

How are we successful? When we are obedient When the message is clear

01:01:57

When the gospel is central when Christ Lordship marks everything that we're doing

01:02:05

You're successful the church in China is successful even as it is thrown into prison

01:02:15

Because they're doing what God has called them to do North Korea as well anyplace else

01:02:24

That church is successful Because of the clarity of the message and the fidelity that they're demonstrating to that message and So the apologists is successful only insofar as what the apologist is doing

01:02:41

Brings glory to God and clarifies what God is doing in this world

01:02:46

Remove barriers great tear down anything raised against the knowledge of Christ great

01:02:53

But if that does not result in the promulgation of the gospel

01:02:59

And I don't mean in some shallow I need to finish every

01:03:06

Discussion of apologetics where I'm talking about textual criticism with reading the four spiritual laws type silliness but successful practice of apologetics

01:03:17

That is in any way disengaged from the proclamation

01:03:23

Jesus Christ is Lord repent and believe is a waste of your time and Everybody else's as well my thoughts on that Obviously, there's much more to listen to if you want to look at that.

01:03:40

It's it was I think it was dated yesterday or today Was yeah, I was dated yesterday I think when it was posted has

01:03:45

Christian apologetics failed you can listen to the rest of it if you feel like there's somehow Something I missed but I would say

01:03:56

There are a lot of Christians praying for Jordan Peterson a lot of Christians praying for Ben Shapiro they are being

01:04:04

Both of them have been exposed to a great deal of light and in my experience when you're exposed to a great deal of light, but you don't respond to that light eventually that results in heartening and So we keep praying it's not up to us to determine what

01:04:24

God's gonna do, but we keep praying I would certainly hope that what's going on and dr.

01:04:29

Pearson's life right now would be used to show him that they're that all the truth that he has seen by common grace in the world around us is

01:04:39

Not enough until he sees the one who made it all possible and bows that he's at his feet

01:04:47

He you know pray for him obviously the same thing with With Ben Shapiro as well

01:04:54

But don't confuse Moral deistic therapeutic

01:05:02

Make you a better person ism with the gospel It's not if there is no call to deny yourself repent of sin and Believe on the name of the

01:05:17

Lord Jesus Christ. It ain't the gospel. It may you might call it preparatory

01:05:23

Whatever you want to call it. That's not the gospel And so to even ask the question, why are they so successful and we're not as successful there is to Demonstrate that you've missed the centrality of theology in defining apologetics and in defining the very term success

01:05:40

I Think that's pretty important. So Once again prayers, please for the the ministry coming up this this this week starting, you know,

01:05:51

I head up there tomorrow a lot of work being done interviews being done on Mormonism, I understand

01:05:58

Jessica interviewing Sandra Tanner and Bill McKeever That's really cool

01:06:04

So a lot going on obviously Obviously, I cannot do

01:06:11

What I've lined out to do between now and December if I'm flat on my back sick

01:06:17

So the biggest thing for me is Oh Lord, please You who are sovereign over every germ every microbe every virus

01:06:27

You know each by name Protect me and and remind me please

01:06:34

Lord Use my hand sanitizer run from every sneezing child

01:06:42

Yeah, when that when that cute little three -year -old pops up over the back of the back of the seat in front of me and then goes

01:06:48

Run stop breathing for 50 minutes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah everything.

01:06:54

That's a doorknobs, all right Oh the worst Escalators, can you imagine the

01:07:00

Petri dish those hand things are on an escalator? Oh my goodness Oh Credit cards.

01:07:08

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah that that's why right over there. I have my my hammer Sonipur hand sanitizer the other the other pastors at Apologia will tell you

01:07:18

I regularly hand them out to them. I That's how I show my love for them as I give them hands hand sanitizer there

01:07:25

I can't tell you how many people Mike my kids I They what do they get in their sock at Christmas?

01:07:32

They get another Sonipur hand sanitizer. And when I first started doing that, they're like, oh dad.

01:07:37

You're such a such a geek you're so just And what do they do today?

01:07:44

They live on the stuff They're doing it to their kids

01:07:50

I just love oh, oh and by the way, oh man Do I have it do

01:07:58

I have it I think I do Let me see if I can

01:08:08

Of here, yep, can you can you zoom in on that?

01:08:23

so Yes, speaking of of passing traditions down Yesterday a gift arrived for my youngest grandchild

01:08:38

January Jenny and so I I Go You're putting it up son, or we're gonna have we're gonna have a split in the ministry.

01:08:52

There's Jenny and She's wearing her Coogee It's a it's a jacket with a with a hood.

01:08:59

It's a hoodie and they're doing catechism right now Last night that is but there's her her

01:09:05

Coogee and she loves it And it's very very colorful. She loves yellow and so there's yellow in it, but it says

01:09:13

Coogee, right? Across the front there and guess who gave that to her? Yes Punkle did that's that's my name for for for the little ones.

01:09:23

And so there you go I almost wore Coogee today, but it was just too hot.

01:09:29

I was I was just like so But you would have actually might have liked this one.

01:09:35

It's all black and gray. It's very classy That'd be a first Nasty just just the anti Coogee ism is just if I not

01:09:49

I offend thee Okay, anyways So that's what's coming up.

01:09:55

Thanks listening to the program today. We will I don't know when we're gonna see a day again

01:10:01

We'll try to find some way of doing something for Australia. Oh Rich has things planned.

01:10:08

I That's dangerous, so there you go. We'll see what happens. We'll see you next time on the dividing line.