Cultish: Walter White and the Followers of Christ, Pt. 2

Welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is

Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here and I am co -hosting alongside my partner

Entrusted super sleuth Andrew the super sleuth of the show up in Harriman, Utah and I appreciate the cameo of your son

Phineas He is alive and well and eaten and sleeping and pooping and doing all those things newborn babies

Do he's doing good though, right? Yep, he's doing great. You you summed it you summed it up perfectly, man

He's eating sleeping pooping peeing that's and that's what we want babies to do. So I'm praising the Lord. That's that's a good thing

That's a good thing. So I am always as well. I'm always super excited because we are Doing a part two two of our conversations surrounding this very unique cult led by Walter White who is

As we mentioned before it's the irony it's the character breaking bad and there is in a sense where he was he kind of broke bad over this cult leader and I mean he broke back as a co -leader and then he went and created this group a lot of Interesting aspects of how that all formulated if you have this is part two of this episode.

So definitely check out part one This time we're now we're gonna be talking with Jason again.

How are you doing, man? Pretty good. Very good Yeah, so Jason just so just to clarify we just to kind of get into it we spent the first episode kind of really

Describing like laying the groundwork kind of really describing like laying out the land. This was the real estate tour

Like the walkthrough and but now we want to get into the personal aspect.

Let's just jump right into it Where did you? Give us your earliest memories of being part of this group and and kind of walk us through What this was like from just your personal experience in this group.

Sure. So it's actually You know from a child's perspective. It's a pretty awesome place to be

I was born there Always it's all I've ever known is to be part of that group Born with a friends group, you know,

I don't have to learn to make friends. I had friends You know your school year that's the group you hang out with you know

And you know as you get a little older that maybe changes a little bit but but pretty much you're with the same people all the time And You know we had

It really was a safe and nice place to grow up. We had we had friends and family nearby there was always always something to do there was always a tight -knit community the

If somebody was sick, you know, we were bringing food over To the family to help them out, you know or or staying up with them or whatever was needed

And we you know, everybody attended when somebody got married everybody went to the wedding, you know wedding would be 2 ,000 people strong if possible and as long as it wasn't hunting season, then not very many people came but but yeah, there was lots of Lots of just good community good

You know But an exclusive group, you know, I didn't grow up hanging out with my neighbors. I didn't go you know,

I went to public school But I was very limited, you know, but you can play sports as a little kid

But you know the kind of rule was if there was cheerleaders who were too old to be playing I played a little longer Then most kids my age were done by grade school

I I thought my parents didn't let me play basketball through junior high and then I begged to play varsity basketball and was told

Absolutely. No but we had to separate from the world like that so but but yeah, that was a

So, I mean, you know, I did have some what they would call worldly friends But but they had to be kept it pretty much at a distance, you know, like they really couldn't come to your house

They couldn't spend time like that. I could never go in their house but once in a while to maybe ride bikes with the neighbor kids or something would have been acceptable, but but mostly

We stayed stayed to ourselves and in high school, you know, we were like the largest group But obviously high school is one of the largest in Oregon.

Actually, it's a huge high school and We're probably the largest social group there. We had our own section in the cafeteria.

It was bigger than like the football players section And really as teenagers, we were kind of crummy, you know, because we acted like we knew that we were better than everybody else that's we grew up believing that we were elite we were

So so we had kind of a bratty attitude in school And and so, you know,

I can't speak for every generation, but I can say my generation were pretty crummy to the other You know so -called worldly kids and teachers you know, we've talked down to the especially the women teachers the men, you know, the young men would but But yeah, we were raised just believing we were better than everyone else

Mm -hmm Location wise did everyone live really close to the church? Yes, really close and they spread out more over time

But still everybody is within 30 minutes for the most part, but most people lived within 10 minutes of the church you know, like if you had to if I was you know, like on a

Date with a girl and I had to drive more than 10 minutes to get her home I felt like you know, like where do you live in the boonies, you know, they go clear out

There and you know, so we yeah, so it was really Overall, I think you know At least for my generation, you know growing up in the 80s and 90s.

It was a it was a safe safe environment for kids to be in you know, it was lacking the most important thing because we had no idea who

Jesus really was but But yeah, there was there's definitely it's not all

It's not all just bad and darkness it is everything is tinged by the darkness that's there but but there's some positive things that like said that definitely

Not everything that I gained from there I've had to throw out, you know to actually follow Jesus. Yeah.

Yeah so then any aspects just to groom what at what point was it that you

You kind of had your moment because I mean everyone's usually when they're in a cult or and it's it's always

Somewhat similar but also distinct from each other that you know people they just kind of go along with the group

They just take everything that's set at face value at this time. Walter White hasn't passed away quite a while They're still kind of in this unique stage with with you know

How they kind of formulate the succession or lack thereof? But like how old were you when you kind of had that first sort of like Morpheus battery, you know

I always describe this and it's distinct for every person, but if you think of like the matrix again Paraphrasing this as a very loose point of reference, but it's almost when

Morpheus holds up the battery light, you know And it's like and all of a sudden Keanu Reeves character

Neo has that cognitive dissonance He's like wait a second. Like I don't believe that, you know, like what was what was it for you that kind of maybe?

Had like that cognitive dissonance or did that begin at some point or tell us about that? So it did and it kind of built to a point where I had that clarity

But it started by the bad things that were happening Really started to be very troublesome.

So when the first time I remember a woman dying in childbirth It was devastating for the church.

I was a fairly young man But then it seemed to accelerate it started to you know, I wasn't married yet I was married when I was

I wasn't quite 19 when we got married But so, you know as I became a man and was married and you know starting my own family

These spiritual things became way more important to me and As I started to see first women dying and now then little children dying needlessly

And eventually, you know the law starting to get involved in these things. I really started to challenge like wow

What are we doing and why and it was it was heartbreaking? Yeah, you would keep me up at night I mean some of these, you know, like women that were my age suddenly were dying in childbirth needlessly and I couldn't

Just couldn't wrap my head around why we were doing this. Yeah If you don't mind me asking I mean may this might be difficult, but I'm just part music is curious is different for everyone

I mean you had I was thinking of like blood transfusion the being the specific example for many times with With the

Watchtower Bible and track society So when there were child deaths was there a certain like was it kind of categorized in a particular area?

Or was it just sort of in general or what what was usually like the cause of death? No, I mean, I remember one was definitely diabetes.

Most of them were unknown though Like I remember one young man, maybe 10 or 12 years old just died in his sleep.

I'm not sure why but it was It probably wasn't not every one of these was was preventable

So, I mean just like any part of society there's gonna be tragedies like that, you know, yeah Then they're just horribly sad.

There's nothing we can do but But the type of loss here when you're not saved and you don't have the comfort of Jesus These type the pain that these deaths caused.

Yeah, it was like just unimaginable Like the sadness that everybody would be overcome with I just couldn't it became really difficult to deal with this type of sadness and Wow, so that was that became started to really form kind of where I was was headed was because I did go through a time of bitter and angry

You know, I was I was bitter that you know, why are my friends dying? Why are their kids dying? I didn't

I didn't understand and when I would ask questions as to why do we do these things? I never really got an answer You know some veiled scripture that didn't apply

And you know the one that stands out I'll tell you that this scripture that was used in my family and so I some of this stuff as we go forward is gonna be more unique to me than in I Don't want to try to say that everybody has the same exact experience, right?

But it's of course I'm similar but but this part is definitely more about what I overheard and what

I was taught and my my family very much believed in If you seek to save your life, you shall lose it and that was

To them that was if you seek to save your life by seeing a doctor Then you'll go to hell

And so those verses haunted me for most of my life And so every time I would ask well, why this why that I'd eventually would come back around Well, you know,

I guess if you want to do that Jason, but if you seek to save your own life So really distressing and those that verse in particular, you know starting all four

Gospels Was devastating for me and it was really hard for me to wrap my head around eventually,

I came to understand the actual meaning of that verse and I actually it's so night and day between its original intent and What they're trying to somehow take that to say no don't get medical care

Like that is such that is such Gymnastics such a hermeneutical pretzel.

It's so cool though that God used that verse that actually helped convert me though because he actually showed me that you know, like through study and reading like I it was like the light bulb came on one day and I read that verse and suddenly is what it said to me was those of you who seek to save your life by good works you will die that you will go to hell because those of you the only way to heaven is to put all your faith and and Hope in Jesus Christ and the atoning work of the cross.

So when I recognized oh Yeah, this verse is actually kind of about works, but it's about that works can't save you that only the grace of God can save you man, that really opened my eyes so much and it took it that scary verse suddenly became like a

Foundational verse for me as opposed to terrifying but but I'll go back a little bit and I'll tell you so there was

This stuff was going on these kids are dying women are dying and then You know, I'm I'm confused.

I'm sad. I want to leave but I can't leave, you know It disappoint my whole family. Everyone I've ever known is here and then

The strangest thing I think this is probably of all the things that happens. This is the strangest event in their history an old woman

Old old woman probably in her 70s at the time One Sunday has a bunch of people over at her house.

She's still married her old husband still alive and She tells them she has like a big party and I wasn't invited to the party

I was over at another friend's house, but we instantly started getting word that the 77 year old woman is pregnant and And she is claiming like a divine pregnancy

Now she's saying it is her husband's child. So she's not claiming miraculous birth like Mary But she is claiming that God has opened up her womb again and that she has conceived a son and they are

Not coming outright and saying it but they're implying that he will be the new Walter White He will be the great leader the new apostle of this church

Well, I'm just real quickly would she I miss I'm assuming from the hip here But would there be any because a lot of times we we did a episode not too long ago

I believe by the time we released this episode will have released it We did a follow -up on the Hebrew Israelites where many a times what they'll do is they'll take a passage

That was meant for a particular place for a particular time, but they'll read that into the present

So they'll do that with you know verses of God's judgment at a particular geographical location

But then they'll sort of relocate that to being the United States right now First thing comes to mind when you mentioned that is a story of Sarah Abraham and Sarah.

Her name was Sarah No, so let me guess. So were they making a direct comparison or is that a police implied?

Yep the promised Was she actually pregnant though? Was she pregnant? Jumping ahead a couple steps here.

Okay, her husband has said, you know the way he would tell the story is well you know, I'm no Abraham, but you know, my wife

Sarah had this vision and It divided the church. I instantly when I heard it The first thing

I did was I called my grandparents, you know who were kind of like my spiritual advisors and I said what the heck's going on at Bob and Sarah's and They were like we heard and they're like she's crazy and I'm like, okay

Surely nobody believes this right because I'm like she's describing like a Messiah like thing going on like this is nonsense

So, so my grandparents they're totally they're with me and about I think it's Less than half the church opposes her most of the church, but it's it's a pretty heavy divide.

People are excited It's a very exciting time for the ones that are with her and it's kind of the in crowd they were in the older generation of kind of more of the inner circle of that group and so the very powerful influential people are supporting her and and One day

I'm standing in my with my circle of friends at church and an old man walks up to you know I'm in like my either probably early 30s

And this old man walks up and asks what we think of Sarah and I just spoke right out and I saw I think she's a liar and And I didn't realize that this man was totally supporting her

I hoped that he was with me on that and I took instantly a lot of back Yeah, yeah, I stepped in it when I said that that was a big no -no to call her a liar of all things

But so I mean I started to be marked, you know Then as you know I'm one of these troublemakers because I didn't support that but it really got troublesome though when

I started to hear that some of her Big supporters said that men like me and not just me in particular, but anybody that opposed her

Our lack of faith would cause this baby to not be born And so it makes me think like did they always know she wasn't really pregnant and they were just setting this up as like some

Sort of like political gain. I don't know but Very weird statement, then I'm like if the if God has chosen this woman to have a baby then she's gonna have a baby

Right, so just just maybe this this is part and parcel to this story of her claim of being pregnant now given they

Your group believe they didn't have medical care. Well, that was not allowed that would not include

The technology to see whether or not there's a baby inside or being old being or being able to take

You know the tests where it's like blue or pink, right? So is that off is that off -limits when just for off -limits some women refuse to use them, right?

And because there was then some hysterical pregnancies out there that were obviously not real Okay you know people wanting to be pregnant and they would go through these and they wouldn't take the test but my wife took the test

When we were full -blown followers and most of my friends listed to it wasn't a okay She of course refused to take the test though But you would have leeway to not take it because she could maybe use that as a catalyst to say

I'm just guessing would You can clarify but could she maybe say like given their belief about medical care that well

This actually falls into that categories. This is my conviction that I don't want to take this test Yep, absolutely.

She could go that route And so as what she did do though to try to convince people she started to fatten herself up Her belly started to look swollen

Well, I don't know if it was like a full -blown you like clinical hysterical pregnancy or not But she was starting to appear pregnant which was confusing more people

And so then are you know, we have what we talked about before some lay midwives that went and checked her, right?

Let's see if she was pregnant. And so after their examination, they these women came back and said absolutely

Sarah is pregnant and I was still like well, so you're just liars, you know, like so now we've got

I just felt like man I'm surrounded by the dumbest people on the planet. So I honestly felt

I mean that sounds harsh But I just thought if it's this easy them and I really felt like man like God was exposing them that he was using this heresy to show who the truth was with and it was certainly not with them and And so the church becomes very this was the most divisive thing

In my lifetime, I mean it completely almost caused two separate churches to be born out of this It was that hard of a hard of a line

Because if you weren't with it, but you know nine months goes by ten months goes by eleven months goes by She's still not laying it down then they're changing the date and they're

It goes on quite a while I don't know how long but well over a year of her claiming there's a baby coming before finally, you know

Her closest family her son and some other men, you know Rebuke them for deceiving the church

And so so there was a lot of hard feelings about that there was never an apology I felt like we were all owed an apology that it divided the brethren and that They'd done great damage and I really felt like they owed us all one not just me in particular

I'm you know, I'm not saying I deserve anything, but I did feel like the body deserved They they brought it to us.

They deserved we deserved more than what we got of just silence when it went away and Some of the men tried to confront

Bob about it and he would run and he wouldn't he wasn't he would literally run from My grandpa to his car to avoid the confrontation at church.

So And so that became a kind of a pivotal point. I mean, I think Walter White's dream of the end of time

Sarah's vision of conceiving a child in old age I mean, you know just like just like Abraham Sarah past their rearing age.

Here's a promised child I mean that how can that not be if you believe that not be like a it's a turning point But yeah, not the turning point they were hoping for that's for sure

But it definitely helped put me even my feet were already on the path, but that helped it helped strengthen me it got me reading more it made me a

You know want to know what is the truth? What is and what is going on with this group of people because it started to feel like I'm living in an insane place

Yeah, so so so we're having like you're getting older now. You're you're married. You might be starting a family

Yeah, and oh you got a few kids Okay, so like there's almost like this this reality to where you're like, well my kid be that sacrifice

Would my kid have to be that sacrifice? Would that be the child? That's taken from me. And then on top of that which starts getting you questioning on top of that you see this

Insanity going on with a 77 year old woman claiming that she's pregnant that yeah, that's gotta like be

Tearing your world apart in weird ways And so to be clear when it comes to so while I was definitely a follower when it come to medical

Medical care for my children. It was always available to my kids. Okay, so I was not so I just had to keep that secret

You know, we were I'm not an anti -vaxxer. They are you know, I'm pro. I'm I'm Very much a follower of Christ But I'm also a believer that science is real and that God is behind that and I don't post medicine like they do

Right, but but so yeah, I was never gonna I was not gonna Allow my kids to die for their beliefs because I just wasn't all in By this by this point in life, you know,

I'm not all in on that that side of it. Anyways I'm still hoping for the church to be restored. But But not, you know,

I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not going to be their sacrificial lamb at that point. Hmm so so from there we get

You know a lot of confusion a lot of questions for years This is a debate a topic right but and so my whole life though I mean

I prayed from the time I was little I was taught to pray for an apostle and not just a preacher not

You know not Not a pastor that wouldn't be pastors. Don't baptize. We need We need an apostle and so I'd offered up these horrible prayers that really were unanswerable my whole life that because of what

I was really praying for was for God to send a man to save me because that's What I believed that we needed and so when

I would pray for an apostle It really meant send the Messiah because I needed saving So, of course i'm praying a prayer that cannot and will not be answered

Uh, and so, you know It really is hard on your prayer life when you feel like you're sincerely asking for something and there is zero response

But there wasn't it felt like zero response in hindsight. Uh, there was a response. It just wasn't what

I wanted. So, uh, but one day This is where things for me start to change really change

So like these things were building and pushing me in a direction But all they'd really done is make me tired And sad and bitter

I didn't have I didn't have what I needed. I didn't have jesus and one day My prayer shifted and I don't know why

Uh why this was put on my mind, but my mind went from praying for an apostle to that stopped I never prayed that prayer again

But I started to pray every day for me to know what god's truth is. Just show me what your truth is

Is what I would pray and Uh at a thursday night meeting so they would meet sundays and thursdays just both worship meetings

Uh, we kneel in prayer and i'm praying for god, please show me your truth Whatever it is, you know like just show me i'll accept it.

You know, if you would just show me Out of desperation i'm praying this prayer and as I sit up from prayer

Everyone starts singing and I start looking around and I have this thought that I can't see one christian in this building which was

Really really hard. I realized like my prayers are being answered and i'm not really liking what i'm seeing.

I'm terrified at what i'm seeing and uh And so yeah,

I real I started to real quickly realize that what i'm seeing And the answer this prayer is going to lead me out of this group

It is going to lead me away from here and it's going to cost me my wife I'm going to lose my kids my kid You know, my son is uh, like 15 years old or so Like he's gonna my family will take him from me, you know, we've seen this before we know what happens you you leave

Your kids aren't going with you uh, and so Uh, you know, i'm in like panic mode, you know, my parents are never gonna speak to me my grandparents

I'm going to greatly disappoint i'll crush them like i'm like it will literally kill my grandpa to hear That I don't believe like him, you know, he's groomed me to be like him and here i'm

Seeing and realizing things and suddenly the scriptures are being opened up to me in this new way uh

And then I decide instead of answering the call of god that was put on my heart and I decided to put it away Uh, which this becomes the darkest hardest part of my life uh to my own shame uh,

I knew better but uh I couldn't because I was afraid of man. I could not Uh answer the call that was put on my heart.

And so I just quit praying and I quit reading And I just continued to live my life in darkness and it put me in a spot where Uh, it was hard on my marriage.

I mean, I was lucky I didn't you know, I was worried about losing my wife I almost lost her just because of the man. I became it my marriage was falling apart.

My My house was a wreck And uh, I was ignoring

Uh, you know, the call of god was on me all the time and I just refused could not hear it Would not respond and uh years go by like that quite a few years and then suddenly

I couldn't do it anymore and uh I had to under come to understand that it was by grace not works that we were saved and the doctrines you know, it was new to me, but I you know,

I'd read the scriptures my whole life and suddenly They were like new living words. They weren't uh

They weren't just dead words anymore and it was this one word grace that opened up and unlocked the scriptures for me because before Before my eyes were open.

You could have whited out the word grace out of my bible and I wouldn't have known it was missing But once I understood what unmerited favor was once I understood

I already knew my own depravity But once I understood like the substitutionary atonement of jesus christ

The bible is a is the living word of god. It is not dead. But to me it was dead until that point

And so I couldn't understand the context, you know, I would have said like well, who is this philippians? You know, who is this?

Who is this that wrote this book? I that's how like I would read the writings of paul and not even understand it was paul.

I was completely blinded like I was i've described it as I was sitting in a lazy boy rocker

And I was warm and comfy and I didn't realize I was descending into the depths of hell And that's how

I had spent most of my life uh, but uh Oh, are you guys there?

Yeah, i'm here. Okay. Sorry the my screen looked weird there for a second, but uh so yeah, so these so these things start, uh, uh this grace and uh

And this i'm excited, you know, like i'm wanting to share this And so I tell my wife

Uh, i'm afraid i'm going to lose her but i'm ready to i'm ready to tell her and so I tell her. Hey Walter white was not an apostle never was

And I tried to explain a few things to her and I just said you know what i'm not going to be able to explain This in a way that you can understand but it's what you should do

Is you should pray this prayer that god will show you his truth And hopefully you'll uh, you'll understand the same things that i've come to understand and within two days she's coming back to me saying

Uh that she does understand and that it's by grace that we're saved And then the journey really picks up now

I have you know Like I was so weak that I didn't I couldn't do it without her like I needed my wife by my side to do

What I was about to do and uh Things really start to accelerate at that point but uh

Do you guys want me to just continue with that part of the story? Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead So, okay.

So at this point, uh, the group that I stand with I spend most of my time with um, they're uh

They're still they're just they're nice men, but they're in complete darkness and uh, I can't really talk about these things with them

But i'm at a wedding And i'm sitting in a little different group man. They were distant friends, but not the not my core group of friends

And I said something about listening to an alistair begg sermon and not only did that not bother them But they were amazed that I knew who alistair begg was uh

And they were happy about it and then they start talking to me about some of the sermons they listened to And as what I had heard them saying is they spoke in a way where I knew they were saved men and I was like Huh?

I'm not totally alone here uh, which surprised me and uh So I started to become closer with them and it's not long before I have totally switched my friend

So this is who I stand with now totally different part of the church, you know, I mean huge building And just and just real quickly for anyone, uh, who's not aware alistair begg is a great

Preacher, but as great as his preaching is his he has almost an equal as great an accent an amazing

Wonderful scottish accent. So, uh shout out to any one who's listening in from scotland. Uh, shout out right there

But yeah, he's a great, uh preacher. There's a lot of great preachers historically that have come out of scotland.

So Definitely that so for sure if alistair hears this man Thank you for being a faithful servant of god because uh, his ministry had a great impact on my life, especially his sermon series on uh

Uh, oh, what was it called? I can't remember now but uh, but he had just i've listened to hundreds of his sermons and they just uh,

They really had a profound effect on my life along with many other You know the john mccarthur's and rc sprawls and stuff and yeah and and but through this so I so I find this group of men

And and they have this text group going Where when they put me in it was but I think it was the 14th guy in it and they're sharing sermons

Which is a big no. No, you can't be listening to worldly preachers And so i'm getting you know, uh, william hughes, which is like this amazing pastor in england, right?

who spent some time in florida too, but amazing, you know small church guy, but just uh a seasoned wonderful pastor and Uh and beg and mccarthur and sprawl and you know all these you know

These the guys that are like kind of you know, a lot of these are like giants in the modern church, right? but we didn't know them these were all new to us and they're and they're sharing things, you know, like, uh,

Sermons from spurgeon or you know sinners in the hands of an angry god we're learning about jonathan edwards and we're learning all these new words and how to study and read our bibles and uh, uh, and it's just changing everything like I mean, it's just this whole new world has opened up to us and We're so excited.

I mean, it's amazing in uh, And every day this text group gets bigger and bigger and bigger and it's within like two or three weeks of me being put in it

There's 60 men in this text group Encouraging each other praying for each other uh talking about you know, uh

The grace of god, you know that like we're saved by grace and grace alone and then one of them shared somebody, uh

Had has taken old uh spurgeon sermons and like, you know Read them and then record them and you can get them on used to be able to get them on sermon audio

But they're not available anymore But some of my friends called the guy up that did them and uh and asked hey Could we buy copies of them?

And so so we have a lot of those in digital form so we could listen to them and not just read them and uh, the one that most affected me though was uh, and really for all of us, uh is called uh, works a criminal doctrine and he goes on to you know,

Spurgeon goes on to explain How you know this doctrine of works that you can save yourself was created in the depths of hell

And it's the most evil and destructive doctrine ever And uh, it absolutely was earth -shattering and if there's one thing

I could get every follower to listen to it would be either read or listen to to works or criminal doctrine because uh

It's life -changing and uh, and there's others, you know, like steve lawson. Uh, It will cost you everything sermon.

Uh is probably my favorite sermon i've ever heard. It's uh, I was in a spot when I first heard it where I was preparing to leave and give up, you know

Most of everyone I'd known Um but uh Listen, listen to steve lawson

Talk about what it means to count the cost. Uh help. Give me the strength to do. Yeah to do these things that were you know, uh

It was hard to do honestly to go to lose what I lost But in the middle of all this, you know

We see god's promise that he'll replace these things a hundredfold has played out in my life over and over again No, it doesn't mean

I don't miss my brother though, you know, yeah, dude. Um Yeah, I mean

You may I appreciate you man being vulnerable and transparent because even like what you're sharing There's a lot of weight that comes behind that And it also is interesting too that you know

The the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original And that's that come that's on many different levels when it comes to the uh kingdom of the cults

Uh, so one area is that you know, there is a lot of scripture twisting. Uh, that Is that comes about via the cults, but if you're approaching uh

The cults from a totally secularist point of view Um, like someone like rick alan ross or steve hassan

Well, you how do you get you can't give an ultimate accounting for why it's wrong to twist scripture And so when we're actually dealing with that, there's no there's an authenticity

To what jesus was telling his disciples about counting the costs. Well when you become converted and you see jesus as just the most precious of anything

He's just he's everything like in him or hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge and it's now you have this relationship

With god through christ and it's just it's everything to you and biblically, you know, it talks about us You know as much as it depends on you be at peace with all people and given

Some people when they get newly converted they get very excited They kind of go in that k -stage mode and sometimes it's a little bit of ignorance on fire of sorts

And that can happen but I think for the most part when it comes especially when The it's a social the sociological infrastructure and just where it is that most of the time the severance is really done

By the people within the cult where they're just told to cut off contact from anyone who's not do does not agree with the group

And it's hard because I mean I've you you're there and you're trying to do bargaining you're trying to reason with them like okay

Can we disagree to disagree like anything that still have that relationship? I tried that one. Yeah. Yeah and man, like all of a sudden it's like you see that the fact that it's like you're you're

Flesh and blood ken your brother, you know, someone you've known your entire life and it's still them

But it's almost like steve hasan does make an excellent point I think it is accurate where you do have that unique cult identity

That's been given to the cult member that's suppressing their true self so and sometimes you'll even see

The real person the real self the real person And and the cult identity they'll almost shift and fluctuate back and forth like when you know, you know when the person is talking as your brother and then

You know When they're just regurgitating or parroting sort of the talking points that they all have like every every cult has sort of their own unique vernacular whether it's bearing a testimony or whether just parroting a phrase of their leader or just sort of regurgitating their literature or what have you so um

What i'm saying is that is that relatable to kind of like your experience for sure? Absolutely. Walter said is the key thing out there.

Walter said this they don't refer to Uh, the apostle paul wrote this. Uh, it says this in timothy or the gospel of matthew says this no

It's walter white said Uh, and so they he's been dead so long. He can say anything you want him to say

Uh, so they can build a whole case for their belief system based on things that they're just making up Uh, I don't think walter said half of the maybe 10 percent of the things that they claim that he said

Uh, he would have had to live 200 more years to be able to even get off half the words that they that they account to him but uh but yeah, it was uh they definitely

Uh found as they found out about our little group though. Yeah, we were seen as a threat to walter white You know, that's what they hated about it

And wow, so this this group. Oh, go ahead. Andrew I was just thinking like so so you're hearing the gospel the actual power of god for salvation and that's the um

That's what's uh in conflict with walter white, right? Yes. I find that very very interesting

They're like, isn't that amazing because the truth is nothing he taught lines up with the gospels

With the doctrine of grace, right? So I can tell you where i'm at today. I am firmly rooted in uh

In the doctrine of grace that grace and grace alone is what saves, you know And this thought of uh, do

I believe in good works more than they do? But I believe that they were created for me from before the foundations of this earth and that I choose to participate in them but I do not expect or deserve anything for anything that If it's of me, it wasn't that good.

Anyway, so anything that i've done for the kingdom Jesus deserves all that because i've already proven in my life that That i'm a wicked man and that I don't deserve any credit for anything

And so even as this story goes on I want to be very clear About this. I don't think I deserve any credit.

I don't think that I have done anything special. I think that Uh This is jesus's story.

This is he's in the act still to this day of saving his people and His sheep heard his voice and we answered uh, but I am not special.

I don't want to come off in any way thinking that i'm better than the people out there Uh, i'm not

I don't I I I see myself, uh In the category of saved now, but I spent most of my life in the category of lost sinner.

So Wow You are you're christian leaving the city of destruction from pilgrim's progress

And you're on a journey to the celestial city and the whole story is about how much you need christ. Yes That says yes very much.

Uh, see the parallel yes, obviously every christian walks that same life of the pilgrim's progress in their own way, but But man, yeah, is this this group though man was so encouraging.

It was this is one of the most exciting times of my life Uh, we're just on fire for the gospel And the spirit of evangelism, uh,

I just that's Like my personal calling, uh, not a calling like a walter white calling, but my calling is evangelism

That's what I do is tell people about jesus and now i'm no billy graham by any stretch I'm, never going to preach to millions

But anybody that wants to hear about what jesus can do for them or what he's done for me. I'm an open book and uh,

And uh, you know, I go to the the youth jail mclaren here and I talk to the boys about jesus, you know

I go to the homeless Anywhere that is available if people will listen, uh, You know that that's what's been written on my heart.

Uh, but uh, Very different than a place where I wasn't allowed to even say the name jesus to outsiders

You know, I mean we were told literally to not tell anyone. Yeah Well, usually what

I love about this man This is so good and you can give me your thoughts and andrew and i'm sure you got your thoughts too.

Andrew Is that most of the time when people? Uh Are in a in sort of cultish infrastructure when they leave

They sort of emulate the exact opposite Of something so for example, and there's there's pros and cons to it a con would be

Um, and this is but it's a con but I think it's also something to get a level of understanding where a lot of people who are

Ex -cultists like we it's important as a church We have to understand them and where they're coming from And a lot of them have a lot of and this is maybe a good conversation

Maybe the last segment of this is that a lot of times there's a lot of baggage that ex -cultists

Will have with getting plugged into a solid biblical church

Or and just because of the fact of just one. Well, I was deceived already How do

I know I won't be deceived again, but also there's a lot of times physical sometimes physical sexual mental emotional abuse that takes place well

Why would I be in a hurry to put myself in another religious setting where i'm going to experience that all again?

I mean if you're just personally if you are think about if you Are if you go through this really horrific divorce and there's abuse there's mental physical emotional abuse

All the whatever what have you and finally things end and there's finally severance closure

Whether it's a restraining or maybe it's a divorce a restraining order. What have you? You're not going to be that most people

Um, there might be some people out there who can do it But most people aren't going to set up an e -harmony account the next day

Right, you know there is a level in which they transition. So an example would be real quickly would be Um a lot of times there's very for the women.

There's very rigid restrictions in regards to Uh who you can like how you can dress how you can have your having just to cover a just always having to cover every part of your body or even aspects of how you're

You're supposed to act You know sexually towards your husband or even towards the cult leader and all that and a byproduct of that is many

Uh women who leave a cultist structure. They're just a there's a tendency just to be very open and promiscuous um because of that not to say that that's justified but there is

Something that explains that in the same way whether it's a misunderstanding Jehovah's Witnesses, for example

I think we've mentioned that with uh, disfellowshipping Uh, we had a situation

I think I told you over the phone Jason where you know, we had a guy clay who was on and he was going through He was brand new to the church and we had to enact a form of biblical church discipline on someone

And he was I could tell he was distraught and I knew i'm like, hey You're probably you're probably you're viewing this through the lens of your old self of how how people would disfellowship how the elders had already kind of made up their mind and Disfellowshipping policy of Jehovah's Witnesses.

We had to sit him down like no there's a difference between the two so all that being said, um

Yeah, and I think what's where I was going with this. I was like, where's this? Oh, yeah, so With you it's like well you're in this cult and you're told like not to evangelize this is a positive aspect

I gave two negatives. Here's a positive is that you here you are like don't tell anyone about jesus because The succession has already happened and now walter white is dead but now

You're saved and now and you're out and that's one thing you're told never to do Now you have a new heart and maybe there's part of like that old self who's like I just gotta go and just do it

Now I go all after it Anything worth doing is worth overdoing for sure. That's the way and and you know, uh, when

I look back at the conversations I had You know, I don't I wouldn't say that I regret them because I was doing the best

I had They would sound different today than they did then, you know, I was still very green And so I wish I was a little more gentle at times with some of my friends and family that didn't leave but uh

But man, uh that fire that was burning in me man, it couldn't be Nothing was going to put it out, you know

Like I had to tell people and and ultimately, you know this group of men we wound up starting a bible study

Which was really a big deal. Uh people The study of the bible where people would say, oh you'll leave the church if you study the bible like that Uh, and it was it sounds like no big deal to start a bible study

But where we were it was a huge big deal and the first one was a saturday morning

Uh, and it was a men's study Only at first eventually it's not long. It's within a month we're doing a saturday evening study and the women are coming and we did that study for over three years and uh, and you know, it would average anywhere from 20 to 70 people so it was quite the quite the large study but uh

But you know i've entered this stage of my life where we're doing these things and uh, i'm having it i'm needing refreshing though You know, like to just go and evangelize the followers of christ church is becoming draining

So we start attending a good shepherd church out in gresham in the morning and then going to followers of christ afterwards

Uh, which I found to be extremely valuable to be able to go and just sit in a good preaching Uh have my mind renewed before I went out to this dark place

Uh to deal with you know friends and family and I mean they literally were my mission field This is where this is

I was, uh, just felt very sent. Uh To be there at that at that time, uh, and I felt that that that's where my heart was was

I couldn't just abandon them Uh, I had to go and tell them I couldn't just go. Well, I know about jesus

And do like what they would do and tell no one i'm gonna tell everyone And uh, luckily I had this just great.

There's just this faithful brothers. We suddenly had all these These brothers that were together and everybody of the same mind, uh completely unified preaching christ everywhere we go and uh, and so There was a time not that long ago where nobody out there knew what grace was none of them have that excuse anymore they have all heard grace preached now because uh,

Uh this group of men preached grace everywhere they went and and it couldn't be avoided and we became known of all things as the grace people which

Uh, I thought man of all the chromie names. They could have gave us that one's actually pretty awesome I like grace people.

That's a good one. Yeah, but uh, But so this is happening right and it's this this is movement.

It's like revival is happening and uh I but i'm worried about my daughters though, you know, my son is already married

But I got two young daughters one is uh, 16 16 or 17 is when things really start to pick up and the other is like 9 or 10 but my 16 year old is

Uh, i'm knowing man. She is gonna suffer because of me if I don't get her out of here And it got so bad that teenage boys spit on my daughter

Uh because of who I am uh So it gets pretty rough right there and I had a kind of a bit of a meltdown my friends had to pretty much

Stop me from killing those young men That did that because I pretty much had declared them They were amalekites and deserved to be wiped off the face of the planet at that point

I was I just couldn't believe it that they would spit on my daughter which even for them was a A new low.

I didn't know that they would do such a thing. Uh and uh And a lot of the church did support me

I mean I made that known I threw that out there that this happened and a lot of people that don't support my beliefs Definitely supported that my daughter did not deserve to be treated that way

So I want to give those people credit that that will say hey, we didn't we didn't treat you like that and so it's true most of the church did not treat me like that or my daughters like that, but uh

But the hardcore ones most certainly, uh, they were right there and I never did get an apology from that young man, uh, or his dad uh, so But anyways,

I don't want to talk too much about that because it's still upsetting for me to talk about my daughter being spit on but uh, but so we're at this this time where These great things are happening and then uh

Out of nowhere on one thursday night I sit up from prayer And three men walk out of the back room and take the pulpit

And which never happens. It's never happened since 1986 Here these three men walk up bible's in hand.

One of them takes the mic which was live and says his name and that god has sent him and that he has a king james bible and he

Has a message that god has sent him with and he would like to preach it and he opens his bible to first john

And starts preaching that you can know that you're saved And he starts off by complimenting them saying he's heard a good rapport that these are faithful people that they love god

But that you don't understand that you can know And he gets he's able to preach for about three minutes before they start shouting him off the pulpit

And somebody starts screaming take it to the back take it to the back And so the way the church is laid out the back would mean this dance floor that we talked about before, right?

So so we can push him back. There's a big kitchen and seating area and large dance floor back there And i'm sitting all the way in the back of the church

And so here's like 600 men jump up and are ushering him out there with his two elders And uh, and I don't know who these guys are.

I just know that I can't believe that like grace is being preached You know here i'm saved and i'm hearing it in my own church not at good shepherd.

I'm at Fathers of christ and this is happening and i'm hurrying to get to the back and when I get back there He's at like say there's a circle of men on the dance floor

John and his two elders are at 12 o 'clock I work my way around to probably nine or ten o 'clock area, right?

And it's probably a large circle, maybe 10 15 guys deep in this huge dance hall And people are shouting and yelling already by the time

I get back there and they're asking him things like what's your calling? Uh, did you go to school because you know being educated, uh is terrible in their mind you should be lay preacher only inspired only by the spirit of god, you know seminary is like Apparently like one of the worst things ever the way they responded to him being seminary trained

But he did a really great job answering their questions and explaining that you know, the apostle paul was educated uh and that But that he was called to do the work that he does

And he kept trying to tell them I have a message from god and god sent me And i'm not going to let you chase me off until I give that message

But but if I can give my message, I will peacefully leave And they just won't allow it. They're just screaming and yelling and they're saying things like we'll never you know we'll never accept you and and so Uh, it just keeps getting more vile and vile and and you know

They didn't like lay hands on him or anything, but it was coming to where it felt like violence was a possibility I mean, it was scary and then uh uh, the guys start they he started asking them if they know they're

He says anybody that knows they're saved raises their hand and like ten of us raise our hands And then people start screaming.

How can you know you won't know till nobody knows nobody's saved until their judgment seat And that's when you'll know and he goes.

Well, that's not biblical And he's like, let me tell you what it says about the judgment seat and uh, and and he's trying to explain to them what you know atonement is and he's

Uh, and that they can know he's really his really his message was you can know that you're saved because that's what john teaches us in his epistle that he didn't die for a maybe or I think so or Uh, if we're lucky and you do enough good things, you can know you're saved

And that's what this man. John robinson came to preach But as it got more and more hostile and and uh ugly

I started to pray that uh, god would send someone To quiet the crowd and to allow this man to deliver his message because I could see it wasn't he wasn't going to be allowed to finish and I was getting worried that it might be violent and uh, it just I was really upsetting because i'm like You know so hopeful and i'm so excited

And now they're ruining it and uh And as soon as I offer up that prayer instantly,

I realize oh no i'm that guy I'm that guy i'm praying for god to send someone And it's me and i'm not really happy that it's me

I want i'm wanting somebody else to please step up Please somebody I have friends here that are wiser and stronger than me.

They can do it. You know anybody somebody quiet him down And my daughters is all

I can think of is what is my daughters are having a hard time already What is this going to do to them? And I just realized like it has to be me and so uh,

I speak up And I loudly say hey guys, you don't speak, you know, these these handful of men they're talking you don't speak for everyone

You only speak for yourself He said he'd leave after he gives his message. Could you be quiet? And allow him to speak his message.

He said god sent him You know and then he'll go and uh, As soon as those words came out of my mouth this man standing behind me put us

His face right like in my ear and he starts whispering so nobody can hear him but me But uh, he says something like, you know, why don't you just go back to hillsborough which is where this preacher was from And uh, which is essentially saying, you know, you can just leave and go to hell because leaving the followers means you go to hell and uh

And I feel my old man come back So this excitement that i'm feeling suddenly turns to rage and anger and I mean i'm ready to hit him.

I'm so mad uh that that was just said and uh, and i'm just like overtaken with rage and uh,

I turn around and i'm not gonna hit him, but i'm gonna like berate him. I'm gonna like, you know I'm ready to teach him a lesson

And then I hear a voice say jason. Don't let them do this to you and then peace just comes over me like I just like Uh, the spirit rested on me and I became peaceful and I did not have the rage

I literally just felt it leave my body and I was content that I knew I'd know then that god asked me to To stand up, uh, and i'd done that and I didn't have to make this about me and this other guy

God sent this man to deliver a message and we were going to hear it. And so I just turned back around I didn't address Uh the man that was taunting me

And john was able to preach his message and then he left But from that moment on I had the bullseye now, you know, like here

I was with all these men that were faithful brothers uh, and i'm not saying that they didn't go through a lot also, but I will say that That put a bullseye on my back that the rest of them didn't have and they definitely took some flack by standing close to me but uh

But the bullseye was squarely on my back uh, and so Things get much much more difficult people had already heard, you know, that we're the grace people, but now they really know

You know, they know at least who I am and so the next weekend

Uh, one of my kids my youngest is sick and I stay home from church with her and My wife and daughter go to go back out to the followers and i'm sitting here and i'm playing

Uh, i'm just listening. I got the music up loud and i'm just listening to hymns and not just hymns but I was listening i'd already started listening to new christian music at that point and And so i'm just doing church by myself.

I'm singing and worshiping and i'm in just this joyous mood like I Nothing is going to slow me down.

You know, i'm just like i'm on fire And this thought hits my mind the next weekend is a holiday weekend. There'll be no church

And I thought man, we you know, what what a great opportunity to get together and celebrate this thing that we found

Grace that our lord. Jesus christ is alive Uh, and i'm like i'm gonna host a party and just like i'm gonna have everybody over to my house

We have about one acre And it's good weather and i'm like i'm gonna call up my friends that are musicians and i'm gonna ask them to sing songs

And we're just gonna have like a potluck and the day of worship, right and everyone It's an exclusive event at this point.

It's not open to the whole world But everyone that's followers of christ is welcome to come And i'm not excluding anybody.

I put the word out everyone can come And a lot do and all week

I so I call up one of my friends it's a That's a great guitar player and I said, hey, would you do this? And he was like that's an awesome idea

Yeah, of course i'll come play And so we wind up getting like I don't know. It's probably a dozen musicians You know guitar and percussion and just it's amazing and uh hundreds come

A couple hundred people two or three hundred people show up at my house Which is about maximum for what we could actually handle here. I couldn't really do two thousand on one acre but uh

As the week was going on Just every day was more exciting and people are calling wanting to come and and then all of a sudden out of nowhere uh the enemy attacks

And I start getting Phone calls saying that hey, I heard you're gonna have this john guy come preach at your thing

And then we heard uh that i'm gonna preach and that i'm suddenly now i'm claiming to be i'm called man You know like in follower called and none of these things are true, of course

And you know, I don't even know this guy that had came out to church that I had defended uh, and in fact, I don't even like his doctrine that much but as I got to know him, but uh, but uh,

But yeah, so he's uh so suddenly like this joy starts to turn to pain like i'm like it's really because I thought

I was doing something that everybody could appreciate Uh, it really hurt it honestly cut me deep when

I started to get phone calls uh about what was going on from family members and friends and people that that I barely knew even would call and say

I heard you're doing this thing and Telling me not to do it and i'm like, okay i'm going to go ahead and do it Uh, but you don't have to come and so we do it and it's an amazing day of fellowship.

I mean it is Uh, not like anything i've i'd ever seen or experienced and really it was quite a unique thing and people were singing loud

You know, we're used to hymns played only on piano here We got the guitars out sounds more like a modern worship set and it's amazing.

We're handing out the song lyrics and uh great time Uh, and then people lied and said all kinds of stuff, you know

That people that weren't there made it to be out to something that wasn't it was just a great day of fellowship. Yeah and worship

And uh, and we continued to do i've continued to host parties like that But they got actually really they were they got different but better because suddenly the next time

I said hey Anybody can come not just members of the followers of christ church, but you can bring anyone Yeah, and uh, but at these parties we would start to meet people

That I had known but didn't know where they were, you know, uh, and people would come out and ask, you know, me and my friends

You know, how do I get saved? How do I do what you're doing? Uh and people more and more people like the numbers are increasing one of my best friends that came to that party that day and heard the way that Me and my friend spoke openly about the gospel really changed his life and he he would tell you today that You know becoming our friends and standing with that circle of men and hearing us preach the gospel.

Uh, Was a big part of his conversion. Uh, and so these parties and these get -togethers, uh,

You know, we've continued I continue to still do them and host them Actually, they're just a different group of people than it was on those early ones but uh, but yeah, it's been it was just Just such a sweet sweet time such an amazing thing to get to see and of that first party

I bet 90 at least of those people that came left So which is pretty amazing to see you know that how many have actually

Uh found their way out of that but uh as we continue on Uh our studies, you know, we went from this we were so we're

We're excited and we're preaching the gospel But none of us are baptized and there's still some hang -ups about we've kind of went too far

We went from being baptismal regenerationists to denying the need for baptism So we kind of as a collective group it starts to sound like well, what do you need?

What do you need any sacraments for you don't need to take the supper? You don't need to be baptized you're saved and that's good enough some swinging pendulums going on for sure

Yes, so we're swinging way too far the wrong way uh, but I had this realization of man, uh,

I am saved and that's why I am going to get baptized not because I have to And when I tell some of my closest friends that they're kind of offended, uh, you know, they're like Oh, you're baptismal regenerationist still and i'm like no i'm not uh and so we had this debate for a little while and I was ready to be baptized but I decided because I didn't want to be called a regenerationist, but I knew it wasn't it wasn't a salvational issue

I decided I will wait until they're ready because I knew they would eventually be ready and it wasn't long. Uh, Of course, and then we all started getting baptized

Well, that's the interesting thing too because baptism is a whole regardless, you know of where you end up If you're a baptist or presby or what have you?

Is that you know? Even aside from baptismal regeneration We would say as a false gospel and ultimately it would put you into the category of a work salvation

Baptism is fundamentally spiritual in nature Even though it's something physical that happens because on the very just a very ground level

It's an act of obedience that comes by way of having a new heart and the holy spirit giving you that A new heart with new desires.

I mean anyone like I remember when I got saved I mean I remember just going up to my pastor I'm like, yeah I think I actually genuinely know the lord now and i'm kind of weird because I kind of grew up in the christian church

But I believe I need to be baptized You know and I didn't I just knew I just instinctively knew it's like, you know, like I You know a dog who gives birth to a new set of pups

They know intrinsically that like they need to go and and nurse, you know No one has to teach them a class on how to do it

They just know they know they're hungry and they know where they can nurse It's just part of like this is part of being born in the same sense.

It's a byproduct being born again It was so uh, and so man the baptisms

Were something else so when I so when so I decided to wait on my friends, right? Because I mean and some of these men are uh, they're very well read man

These are not you know, these aren't ignorant men by any stretch, you know, they're not no they're not necessarily, you know, uh

Seminary students or anything like that, but but these are well read men They have a good grasp on the scripture and I said like it's fine.

I can wait, uh until they're ready I didn't have to be out front leading everything and so one day

I get a phone call Hey, a few of us are going to be baptized sunday and I was like cool. I'm like I will be there Uh, but I was

I wasn't trying to jump in the water with them I was content to go The day they were baptized and celebrate with my friends, right?

And there winds up being quite a few people, uh that first day. I don't remember. I bet it was over 20 though or baptized

Uh now fathers of christ have been baptized since the 1960s and here there's going to be baptism a river baptism

Uh in the willamette in the willamette river and a whole bunch of people are going to be baptized Hundreds of people came to witness this from all the local churches, you know, they had been praying for us

Come to witness this amazing day. And so it was so special. It was so neat to see my friends Baptized that day and I waited

I had already had made plans for me to also be baptized. I'd already talked to my pastor And uh, but I just said hey, we're gonna kind of keep it quiet I don't want to like I want to allow these guys to have their

You know, this is a big deal, uh for them where they're at and what we've came out of. Uh, so So I waited till a little while after they're baptized a couple days

And I put the word out in this large text group that we have You know that like, you know, it's probably 100 people in this text group at that point

Hey, if there's going to be in two weeks, there's going to be another baptism And I just put the word out that hey anybody that would like to be baptized.

Hey, let me know uh, you know, like we're gonna sing some songs we're gonna uh, you know, there'll be some food and we're gonna go down to uh,

Milk Creek and Milano and there's going to be baptisms and uh, And a bunch more people were baptized, you know other 15 or 20 that day.

Yeah, there are baptisms We give uh, everybody gave one of the churches, uh that we're close to Today is what we like at baptisms is to hear testimonies.

And so When you came to our baptisms you hear Amazing testimonies of the grace of god and the mercy that he's had on these people that lived

Horrible dark lives and didn't yeah and so Do you know what? Yeah. Yeah.

No, this is awesome, man And we've gone a bit here and we'll definitely have you get some and more additional thoughts as we wrap up here

Um, you know when you're talking about this is like revival service. It kind of takes me into what was that cohen brothers movie?

Like oh brother, where art thou? Yeah, it's like and they're saying I went down the river to pray and they're just like going to like baptizing people and stuff

I just visualize that just because of the way you described oregon city of being out in the suburbs like finding

Some river somewhere like even like where I got baptized it was up in sedona And it was it was like ridiculously cold

And so when I went in there to my pastor like do you want to tell your test? I'm like, no, no, don't just dunk me you know, um

But dude, this is what I love and and this is really the driving force and catalyst.

Um, Really even behind cultists and like why are we why are we making this episode really central in the gospel?

Like how you got out? Well, that's that's really the hope and in the same way how there is this desert of you know, this this long time of just people wandering through the desert because of this cult leader and walter white and Then people not really having a clear direction.

I mean, they're desperate enough for I mean again it's easy to kind of look at Almost to mock and make fun of in many ways

Hearing a story of an of a 70 year old woman tricking people into the fact that she was possibly pregnant with the new

Messenger of of this of this church of their remnant But when you realize like what's the catalyst behind that and that's hope

Like people are desperately like looking to find a real sense of hope meaning they weren't finding that but what's awesome about what you're sharing here is that um

Yeah, I mean that you're finding that there's now like that this Everything that's happened what people have meant for evil god has worked out for good

Now it's a catalyst for like a real authentic revival where there's you know There's genuine repentance people believing in jesus and being baptized having the desire to be baptized as a part of that Which is really awesome

And we've lived what you just said romans 8 28, man We've lived that over and over and over again, uh, the venom that these people have spewed about us god has used for good yeah, and it is uh

I mean The amazing thing is you know that first weekend that people started leaving There's about 60 of us that number is somewhere now between three to four hundred.

I don't have an exact count anymore I used to have an exact but Uh today somebody asked one of my friends how many it was and he said 300 a couple weeks ago

Somebody told me he turned 400. So I don't know the exact number But it's a significant amount out of a two thousand member church but uh

You know when I left, uh Uh Oh my brother and my sister my mom and dad all left at the same time and my one brother has stayed behind But uh, and you know, he don't speak to any of us anymore but uh

It's been an amazing. I mean you see is there heartache in that there is but this journey, uh that we've been on has been amazing, uh

In all glory to god because like I said, this is his story. It's his redemption story It's not anything that we did we don't claim anything special And I really

I would encourage all the listeners If you're a christian you're listening Pray for those people and they are lost people.

They don't know What they don't know they don't know that what they do is actually evil. Uh in their hearts

They truly believe that they're doing the right thing They do believe they're righteous. Uh, and there is a type of holiness there but uh, but pray for them, you know,

I pray for my brother all the time, uh, but uh, you know, I hope that we just continue to see this migration out of there and not just Not just to leave just to leave but to leave to follow jesus and I told people as I was evangelizing people there when

I had more ears is what I would tell them as I deliver this message Of grace, I would say hey Don't follow me because if you do what

I do, uh, there will be a path of there will be hurtred hatred and pain Will follow you, uh, i'll cause you much grief and despair if you just follow me blindly

Yeah, and I have no reward for you to do that. Yeah, but if you follow jesus, uh,

All that suffering will be the same except it's going to be worth it And so that's what

I would encourage them. Don't follow me. Don't do it because I did it you know do it because jesus is worth it and uh,

And that's my message, uh to not just them but everybody, you know, like jesus is worth it.

He's enough for you uh, follow him, uh, because Uh men will disappoint you because the truth is uh in my life and in my story uh

On this plane and on this level on this side of glory, uh, I don't feel like i'm anything other than a failure and a disappointment except that Jesus himself calls me one of his so therefore

I have victory in that and that's what I rest my case on is The victory is was one at the cross

That for I can claim that i'm more than a conqueror that I can claim i'm chosen And that i'm one of his and that that is my encouragement and it's not the you know

I want my brother back in my life. But uh, but not at the cost of his soul I want I want my brother to be saved and then god will work out these other things.

So uh That's that's where my heart is. My heart is for the people I have a heart for the lost and uh

You know, I desire them to be saved and uh And so, you know,

I know that if that day comes reconciliation will be natural so i'm not seeking reconciliation i'm seeking The lost souls, uh to be saved.

Yeah That's good man, I really I really appreciate that's a good way to and I appreciate that's a good way to kind of Uh summarize everything.

Uh, so we've gone a little overboard. We've gone a little after hours. Uh, It definitely gone a little over with them what we typically do when breaking out two episodes

But I think you know you being able to express that is really the perfect catalyst So andrew as we wrap up here and maybe just have this brief and precise we have gone a little bit overboard

But you know, we've we've been together since cultish's inception Uh, you know and we kind of saw the driving force about you know, really having cultish be

Really a true gospel alternative because we're not just alternative This is really the only way you can really account for make making sense of people

Uh getting out of the kingdom of the cults and people who have left to really find true hope Um to just give you a thought give you just give a quick summary if you could as we wrap up here andrew

Uh, what just your thoughts and like why why is the gospel of jesus christ the only real amicable solution to The whole the whole culture obsession and conversation regarding cults and things that are cultish

Yeah, okay. Let's let's summarize such an amazing thing. First of all, uh What we have heard today is the power of the holy spirit, right?

Like the gospel uh It's the power of god for salvation Number one, right nothing else is

Right, and it comes in the most unlikely of places. We heard a story of jason just now and what was going on there and What it reminds me of is john chapter

Or yeah, john chapter three where? No one knows where the holy spirit's coming and going.

It's like the wind right? So as christians How we must act in this world is to understand

That that's what god does when we look at somebody we should never want to cast our eyes down on them or not share the gospel with people for this reason or for that reason or think that they're

Without christ or they're too far from christ. Now. The gospel is the power for god of salvation and Literally, jesus was the son of a carpenter.

He was from the nazareth Does anything good come from nazareth one of the most unlikely of places for the messiah the lowly king, right?

And that's the gospel and the need for the gospel in this world to make sense of anything is number one

You cannot reason or make sense of anything apart from christ He's the glue that holds the fabric of reality together

It literally says that the world is upheld by the word of his power the universe in itself

He holds all creation in his hands that even includes your reasoning or to be able to make sense of things in general the gospel compared to the secular culture who

Wants to try to give a reason for what's going on with these cults They just take them from the pan and throw them into the fire.

There's no real answer. There's no care There's no love for the soul because when we die

We're either going to go to be with jesus forever and worship him in spirit and truth or we're going to be under his wrath forever

Right. So the secular answer doesn't have an the secular world doesn't give an answer Right that really puts you in a better position for eternity only jesus

Puts us in a better position for eternity and his blood that was shed for us On the cross all of history was bound up in christ when you deny the history maker

It's hard to make sense of anything really Amen to that. That's good.

Well, I appreciate y 'all hanging hanging out and uh, Staying extra hours with us and as always we're appreciative of All the support you guys have given us over the past year and really some of you who've been with us since the beginning

So go ahead and if you like this episode go ahead and share it on our social media Let us know what you thought and as always a program like this cannot continue without your support

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Uh, and if you choose to do that, thank you. I would definitely appreciate that So all that being said, thank you all for listening and hanging out and we will talk to you guys next time on cultish