Caller Driven Dividing Line

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic here is

James white and Good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. My goodness.

It is already the 12th of August and I think we're gonna be able to do something from Detroit next week because my

Recording I got the recording schedule. We're gonna be doing and it's all gonna be afternoon evening stuff

So might be able to work out something now Detroit. I believe is in the eastern time zone for some odd reason

So we might be able to work something out say 10 30 11 ish something like that Eastern Time a couple times next week

Maybe we'll see as long as we've got good internet from the hotel and stuff like that But just a reminder for those of you in the

Detroit area Starting the 17th through the 20th. Well, you don't have to be in Detroit area for everybody

Aramaic broadcasting network ABN. I believe it's a BN sat .com.

I think is the URL each evening live Jesus or Muhammad live

I will be on all four nights and we're trying to schedule another marathon

Sometime around early December actually you could try to I think what I might try to do is work that out

With my trip to st. Louis my annual trip. Can you believe it? I'm gonna be in st.

Louis first weekend of December for the 11th consecutive year 11 years same church same weekend 11 years

That's that's a pretty amazing record and I feel sorry for those folks But they love me and I love them so all as well

Try to work something out maybe to be a part of the Jesus or Muhammad marathon at that particular time

But next week 17th to the 20th Aramaic broadcasting network, then the 21st and the 22nd

God and culture conference Information should be on my blog. I need to repost that blog entry.

I will try to get that done Obviously doing a lot of stuff I'm gonna have to be doing a bunch of preparation next week

I don't like preparing on the road, but sometimes you have to For the debates on the 28th and 30th those of you in the

New York area Saturday the 28th and Monday the 30th 28th on the sinlessness of Mary and the concept of the

Immaculate Conception and on the 30th Is the New Testament evil those debates banners?

Beautiful debate banners done by Haseem son of Ramallah King of graphics on our website

Click on those for information on the time and location and all the rest of that neat fun stuff and then

Rocketing right into September straight from that point the two debates with Robertson Janice in Santa Fe and then in October could be up in Minneapolis my hometown

Conference up there in the doctrines of grace and the very next week up in Newburgh For the debate with Robertson Janice on purgatory get home home for a few days off with Paul washers ministry heart cry ministries to Peru to train pastors there and So we have a busy busy busy busy time.

Please remember the ministry in your prayers and Yes, yes every once in a while.

I need to remind folks since we get new listeners We are not a bunch of rich folks sitting around on somebody's

Big donation the vast majority of our support comes from from small

Donations added on at the end of you know buying some debates or something like that And in fact if I could mention something, you know

We're trying to put especially the Muslim debates on YouTube If you like that if you find that to be useful, could

I suggest something to you buy it on DVD? But but I'm watching it on YouTube I know but we've got to be able to keep doing that kind of stuff

So we need your help. We need your support It has been costly doing some of the things we've done recently not just the traveling still need some help in that area though We got one donation.

It really helped a lot for this Falls travel. I'm really gonna need to talk with everybody about Making it possible for me to get to London in in February.

It looks like a possibility We're gonna try to work something out if you saw the debate with Tony Costa and Bassam Zawadi It just so happens in God's providence that Bassam Zawadi said he's going to be trying to get to the

UK in February as well Obviously therefore we will attempt to make our schedules fit

So that I'd be very honored get a chance to debate Bassam there in the

UK but most importantly Doug McMaster's and I Planned last time when

I was in the UK, I I want to see some of the Papyri that are in Dublin and in Manchester Oxford places like that I have a project in mind that I think would be very apologetically useful and so please pray toward the end that that's that that will be able to happen and If you want to be involved in helping that to happen, please consider supporting the ministry

So lots of stuff going on how many debates? Oh, and I totally forgot. I apologize

One month from this Saturday Well, actually, it's gonna be a Tuesday. So would it be one month from next

Tuesday? I don't know how you figured that out, but it's September 14th I am going to be doing another debate

Craziness who is the guy schedules my events anyways, oh, that's me. Never mind fire him

Just Well The biggest concern I have as I get older is

I'm gonna get into a debate with a with a Muslim and say well That's why you shouldn't follow Joseph Smith The Pope has led you astray or something like that, you know, and I did today.

I was on with Todd Friel on wretched radio it's gonna air tomorrow on wretched radio and Well, actually

Todd did this first He started that we talked about two things. We talked about Glenn Beck and Mormonism and then we talked about Ergon Kanner and When he we did it in two segments and so when he started the second segment he had the done done the the dragnet music going and He started off saying is he a

Mormon is he? Oh, man. I got my cults mixed up start. Stop that Let's let's let's try it again.

Let's both start with him and I did the same thing a few minutes later I said some of the Mormons I said, I'm sorry

Muslims. They both start with M and you know, I Have never claimed

Infallibility and I've I've even put I've even put videos up as it just recently of Of me making mistakes like the 1550 5

Stefanos X no, it's 1550 Stefanos X, but anyhow be that as it may I do not claim

Infallibility, so I I make mistakes too so I could make that kind of that kind of error on the 14th of September This is especially for those of you who are you know

Do things like pray for this ministry and pray for this crazy Apologist who would be running around with his hair on fire if he had any hair to have on fire, but I do not

Gillette Mach 2 Mach 3 Mach 3 Mach 2 is very old Mach. There was even a Mach 2 was there

I don't think there was Mach 3 and their new Proglide isn't bad. Very expensive.

Just ridiculously expensive. I don't know Anyhow on the 14th of September we are going to be doing the two -man debate

I don't know who we're debating yet But Michael Brown and I are going to be defending the

Orthodox doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ against sir Anthony buzzard and another

Unitarian and So I have put some of sir Anthony buzzard stuff back on my nano for the rides to Catch up with that stuff.

So Be praying for that as well. That's gonna be live here in Phoenix. I don't have to go anyplace

I'm gonna have to get in a car drive to a studio, but obviously Michael Brown will be coming here and That'll be on the

Jewish voice broadcast so we won't have control over that But hopefully we'll be able to maybe purchase it from them and make it available

I don't know, but we will find out that'll be September 14th. It's gonna be very very busy week

I think that's two days. Is that two days after or two or just before? I don't know I'd have to look at my schedule.

It's very close to the base of Robert's Jenna. So I'm I Normally don't schedule myself this way

But when someone contacts to say hey, would you would you team up with with Michael Brown to do it? What am

I supposed to say? That's too close to another debate. I'm not gonna do it No, I you know as long as I'm still fairly young Relatively young.

Okay, I'm middle -aged, but I'm I feel young We keep doing it while we can do it we've still got the freedoms to do it and so, you know, obviously once again, my hope is

When this ticker stops ticking I will have produced a a large body of work that will benefit people for a long period of time

That's my goal That's that's what we're doing around here So anyhow eight seven seven seven five three, three, three, four one and by Skype at dividing that line.

We actually have Skype line Skype call lined up and so Let me just get this out of the way because there's one phone call on it and then we'll dive into our calls just Obviously there they're starting to get lots of inquiries at Liberty this morning on the

Liberty newspaper there the news in advance in Lynchburg, Virginia Article showed up canner remains on faculty at LU the former

Dean of Liberties University Seminary still a member of the faculty LU officials said Wednesday as Reports circulated that he had cleared out his office this week.

Eric and canner is now a faculty member at LU Chancellor Jerry Falwell jr.

Said Tuesday night in an email to the news in advance. Isn't it weird now hasn't he always been?

It's almost like saying he is now And I'll follow his comment read from the university statement in June that canner whose contract as Dean Was not being renewed would continue as a faculty member

Johnny Moore spokesman for the university said Wednesday that canner would teach online courses now about you

But teaching an online course is the perfect job for someone who is looking for a job

You don't have to be interacting with a whole lot of students. It's all I could you can do it from wherever you are

Mmm Obviously the story continues to develop and I have a feeling there's gonna be further developments in the not -too -distant future

And and we will see but dr. Canner will likely be teaching online courses this fall, but his course load hasn't yet been determined really this fall

That's coming up awful quick That I don't know this all this sounds just a little bit strange to me

But we will see. All right, we continue on. Let's go to our Skype caller and talk with Landon Hi Landon, how are you?

Hi, dr. White. Thanks for taking my call I'm very thankful for your ministry and all the work that you do and My wife and I pray for you consistently, please.

Keep up the good work brother. Well, thank you. That's what we need to hear Thank you It also sounds like you're sitting right?

It also sounds like you're sitting right next to me, which is really still very creepy, but that's good Okay Yes my question was what is the technical difference between apostasy and heresy and how can

I know that I am definitively a Christian and based on the

Doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints will not fall into either of those like what assurance can

I have? Well, the the two are related, but they're very very different apostasy

From from the Greek term apostanide to to literally means to fall away and the act of apostasy the the primary act of apostasy found in the

New Testament is the denunciation or denial of Jesus Christ by going back to The old

Jewish sacrifices that certainly in Hebrews that certainly seems to be related to what

John's talking about in a denial of The incarnation of Christ or or something like that So it has to do with a denial

That Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be and did what he accomplished He claimed to accomplish and what the

Apostles taught that he had accomplished and so apostasy would would be a profession of Of the faith and then a denial thereof heresy comes from the root word to choose but it is utilized in the sense of choosing to believe something other than the apostolic

Message and generally there there is two kinds of heresy there. There is damnable heresy

Where you adopt which is which would be where the semantic domains cross with apostasy?

Where you adopt a belief or a teaching that in that would? necessitate the denial of the central aspects of the

Christian faith, but then there are heresies that Involve a

Acceptance of or an adoption of a belief that is certainly unbiblical or even anti -biblical but not in the area of That's actually definitional of of the of the gospel itself

And so that you can you can have a heresy you could you can hold to a heresy that does not necessarily

Send you to the the pits of hell because you're not denying who Jesus Christ was or did or something like that now the problem is a lot of folks want to Cross their t's and dot their eyes so carefully that that they make connections between even the most minute differences of opinion

Turn them into heresy and hence say if you don't agree with me on This whole plethora of things that means you're fundamentally denying who

Jesus was and what Jesus did And therefore you know they draw a very very very tight circle around themselves some people so tight that they have to stand on one

Foot to stay in the circle because they're the only person that's saved Then on the other side you have the the post -modernist or the liberal

Today that draws the circle so wide you can't even define what Christianity is now the second question

Is a little more interesting in the sense. I'm sort of wondering exactly what you're what you're going for I Mean the the believer who professes that the

Jesus Christ has come in the flesh that he was the Son of God They died on the cross for our sins raised for our justification.

That's a physical resurrection that he's returning again And that these things are presented to us in the

Word of God You know are you are you are you asking about?

being concerned in falling into error Not knowing that or are you more going toward the does the

Spirit of God Promise to protect me from doing that kind of thing. I'm not sure which direction you were going there

I like how you worded it the second way that is my concern as I sift through I've had to grow a lot dr.

White honestly. I was raised a devout pagan, and I got saved in a very charismatic

Church so I grew out of some really bad you know, thanks, you know, thank the

Lord for Hank Hanegraaff and Counterfeit revival and you know Christianity in crisis because that brought me out of some bad doctrine.

I've grown into You know the reformed faith. I very much a reformed Baptist and I'm actually a member at dr.

Sproul's Church, st. Andrews here in Sanford and I just I've had to grow so much.

I just want to know is there security does the Spirit promise security to keep me in Genuine doctrine or saving faith you gave perfect definitions of apostasy and and heresy

I know people throw around heresy all the time, right, you know, if you believe in limited atonement, that's a heresy

You know, I mean people throw that stuff around So my concern is do I have assurance that I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and not be seduced by apostasy

Yeah, well That's really more of a question of what is what is the nature of?

The assurance that one receives from the Spirit of God because You know what might cause a person to deny

Jesus Christ and Apostasy is a reality that we see around us anyone who has been in the church for any period of time

Has a list of people And I don't mean a list of people that we've seen on the

Internet. I mean a list of people That in our own experience in the church

We know and are no longer a part of the fellowship and and our hearts are broken about that And and so it's not just a hypothetical thing.

I'm sitting here right now thinking of one individual from our own fellowship from years ago and Only only young Christians who are who are inexperienced don't have that that list and so we all

We all think about it and we think and we think about it seriously And so I don't

I don't approach this from an ivory tower and from you know, some type of disconnected position I'm an elder in a church and and we've seen people who have who have gone away and It's it's a serious subject and the

Bible treats it seriously Hebrews treats it seriously but at the same time

We have the the Bible's teaching that salvation is first and foremost the act of God wherein he is just he is glorifying himself and God is not glorified in apostasy in the sense that A true believer united Jesus Christ could be lost

I mean that would directly violate what the Father's will for the Son is as revealed in John 6 39 so there has to be something about the nature of apostasy that is revealed therein and What is revealed therein is the fact that true saving faith is the work of the

Spirit of God and that means that both the area that you're concerned in that is remaining true to the truth remaining faithful to the truth confessing the truth about who

Jesus Christ is what the gospel is so on so forth is directly related to Your continuation in faith in Jesus Christ The subjective experience of your salvation the nature of the

Spirit's work in your life. It's all of one thing It's it's not different things I think it's one of the real dangers that a lot of people have in their theology is they

They posit a difference between what they profess to believe and what they experience in their life

And and the reform perspective is there there can't be any difference The one same self same spirit Who has caused me to be born again the self same spirit who has caused me to confess faith in Jesus Christ is the very same?

Spirit who continues that work within me and who continues to conform me to the image of Jesus Christ, and so it's all part and parcel the same thing and so the assurance that I have as a believer is

First of all that which is based upon the finished work of Jesus Christ. There is no question That Jesus Christ will save every single one of those that are given to him by the

Father that is without question The only question that that that is real For us is not

Christ's ability to save his people But the question is what about deception?

That we we know people we we've seen people the the the the antichrists in first John were in the fellowship

And there is a period of time when they made a profession of faith But they did not continue in that profession of faith the he who endures the end shall be saved

That's a description of saving faith, and so there is a sense in which we grow in our assurance

That's what first John 5 is all about when it when when John says these things I've written that you might know that you have eternal life

It's not a you look at the ticket, and it's punched and therefore all is well It is a the fact that we look through first John and we see that we love the brethren not

Necessarily perfectly because of any man's sins we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous but we do love the brethren and we love

Jesus Christ, and we love his truth we desire to walk in the truth and When we see ourselves being described as believers in that text that is what gives us assurance now

I I don't know how long you have walked the Lord now from what you were saying. It doesn't sound like you know 30 years

Could I ask just a ballpark figure how long you've known the Lord? Yeah, the

Lord saved me in summer of 98 okay, so you're looking at a little over a decade I think it would be unusual if I as a believer for four decades

Did not have a more mature Assurance than you just over one decade because the question would be what have

I been doing for? 2 .8 Decades if if I haven't been growing in the grace and knowledge of the

Lord Jesus Christ, so there is a maturity in assurance that comes over time when you walk through deep dark valleys of great difficulty and you you come out on the other side and you have

You you continue to have that saving faith that is evidence that that saving faith has come from the

Holy Spirit of God and that And that he is working in your life and so on and so forth So you have the the objective reality the perfection of the work of Christ you have that growing assurance that a believer has

That as you experience obedience in your life as you experience a hungering and thirst for godliness That is going to increase

Your assurance of your relationship to Christ and as you as you experience his faithfulness

That that obviously grows and and I will never ever forget again

I'm talking subjectively here, but I will I will never forget as a a new elder at the

Phoenix Reform Baptist Church Going with my fellow elder Don Frye to to visit a former elder who was on his deathbed and to to be there only a matter of hours before he passed into eternity and to see

The the evidence of the work of the Spirit of God even the weakness of his physical body in his his trust as He faced eternity that Jesus Christ was his all -in -all and that the righteousness of Jesus Christ would avail before a holy

God That's that's I What what a possession

What a what a glorious thing to see that and did that obviously encourage me, of course it did that's why we are put into a body and are meant to have fellowship with one another and are meant to go through those difficult times

Together because it changes us it changes our lives I think of a couple of years ago a member of our church and he listens to this broadcast.

He just moved away so I hope his move has gone smoothly and he's settling in where he is he and his family, but a member of our church had a child born that Just no matter that we prayed for for months that this child would live and it was not the

Lord's the Lord's will for that little baby to live and to to see he and his wife's faith to be at the hospital when

When things look like and there are a number of times when it looked like it was all over with To to hear his profession that that God is good even in the midst of these tremendous difficulties

Did that have an effect on me? Did I grow in grace? Did I grow in an understanding of God's goodness?

You better believe it Does all of that add up over time to where when

I sit back I go Wow, look at look at all the things God has done in my life and look at his faithless

Look at the consistency of his character over time What a what a tremendous bulwark that is

In the midst of trial and difficulty So yeah I hope we grow in the grace and knowledge

Lord Jesus Christ and I believe that we means we likewise grow in the assurance that we At the same time so there's it's multifaceted we cannot limit it and and boil it down to just one aspect

Very good. Thank you very much. Dr Why I was a perfect answer Um, I was also wondering if I could just get your comments on your opinion of the

Southern Baptist Convention Put the put the clutch in here pull it out of fourth gear down the first gear here

And In what way briefly Okay.

Yeah, I speak recently spoken with dr. Steven Lawson He was at a convention down here and he seemed encouraged that there is a group of Reformed Brethren within the

SPC Al Mohler himself saying that the old Armenians are dying off They don't have a lot of younger guys within them

But yet I speak with other young SBC pastors and they seem to think that the contentions are so strong And the disunity is so big that the

SPC is just going to shut down in five years I just wanted your personal opinion on that. Do you think it can be reformed?

It's being reformed or is it just going to shut down and well, I I certainly don't believe the

Southern Baptist Convention is gonna shut down There there You know,

I think the best person in the world to to ask about that's Tom Askell Tom has his

His finger on on the pulse. I I really don't But I I know a tremendous number of good godly men

And it is very encouraging to see young men I met a young man this this week named

Tyler I was very encouraged to hear sigh Ten brook and cot on Unbelievable radio broadcast and I'm gonna be meeting him next week when

I'm speaking at a Reformed Baptist Church in the Detroit area It's great to see these young men vibrant Zealous, I I see myself there 25 years ago and You know

God continues to build his church and he's I don't think he's done with the Southern Baptist Convention in any way shape or form

And I do see an openness in the part of a number of people there. Are they gonna run into the old crusty's?

Yeah, but The fact the matter is the vast majority the old crusty's Do not accurately represent the position that they're denying and people know it and they see it people are seeing what what the

Norm Geisler's and Dave hunts of the world are doing and they're seeing these things and You know, we're going into a it's good there's difficult times ahead in the

United States of America and Western culture and that makes people very serious about their faith and That's one of the things that I have to keep holding on to, you know

It's easy for me to lack faith in regards to how we're gonna keep this ministry going if there's Economic failure in the future and things like that and yet I also need to remember, you know

What God's people not only are generous people, but they they resonate with people that are serious about what they're saying

And they're serious about the gospel and they're serious about the defense of the faith And that's what I've got a

I've got a you know Glom on to there and that's the same thing in the Southern Baptist Convention So but the best person

I would direct you to for a much more in -depth answer and with much more hands -on experience we

Tom Askell a great brother in the Lord and He really knows what's going on there, but we got full lines here

Landon. So we're gonna move on. Is that alright? All right. Yeah. Thank you, brother. Thanks for calling. God bless. Bye.

Bye Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's go to plain old landlines here, but that's okay

Let's talk with John. Hi John. Hey, thanks for taking my call. Dr. White. Yes, sir I'm a big fan and I hope to be an apologist one day perhaps maybe after I retire or so Well, we

I'm a mathematician right now. Oh my goodness. Well, we are all apologists one way or another and so You're a mathematician.

Well, we could have Could have used you in channel a little while ago. We Anyway, what's going on?

Reform but he listened to somebody I can't remember if it's Chuck Swindoll or somebody but it's second

Peter chapter 2 verse 1 Okay, real quick question. Have you read the extensively long article on second

Peter 2 1 at ailment org? No, I haven't okay, I'll direct you to that because we have full lines and I'll give you an answer, but It's it's there.

There's a lot of material to go into and Simon Escobedo Wrote a an excellent article.

It's in the reformed theology section. If you click on articles, it takes you back to the 1990s vintage Website version of our articles which have never been updated

But there's a whole thing there in second Peter 2 1 But but just just briefly depending on what the assertion is generally the assertion is that the

The phraseology Utilized in second Peter is that denying the master who bought them the assumption being a this is

Jesus B bought means to Die for them on the cross and therefore since these are false teachers that Therefore this demonstrates universal atonement.

Is that the general gist? Yeah. Yeah, right Okay. All right, just just a couple of things to to look at there

To understand the fact I let me see if I can Put this in our chat channel for folks there.

They might find it to be. Oh, it didn't pop up. Oh, well I tried to post this in our chat channel for the folks who are following along there

Just a couple of things to focus on first of all, this is not a soteriological passage it is odd that people would attempt to determine the breadth of the atoning work of Christ by going to a passage that is is condemning false teachers rather than going to the specific text in Hebrews and other places

That specifically identify not only the perfection of the work of Christ But specifically refer to the many and and the fact they're perfected by the work

Christ all the rest that type of stuff So the first thing is to to point out that this is this is an a at best

Well, if this means this and this means this then it would mean this rather than going to the positive text

And establishing a universal atonement secondly the term that is used for and in the

New American Standard It says master some of the translations say the Lord who bought them The Greek term there is despot a's it is not the normal term courios

That is used in salvific texts despot a's you see you hear the normal term despot there

Which we take into English in a rather negative sense, but it means a sovereign Lord one that can act without reference whatsoever to His subjects or to anything else an absolutely

Powerful Lord and that is the terminology that's being used here. Secondly The term that is used for bought is agar adzo and in every place where agar adzo is used in Regards to the atoning work of Christ.

There is always a price mentioned purchased by his blood etc

Etc if this is referring to a salvific agar adzo a redemption rather than a

The despot assigning to someone a role as you have back in Deuteronomy 32 Excuse me, then this would be the one exception to the rule

You would have to say this is the one place where the salvific work of Christ is in is in light

But for some reason it's the one place where the the price that is to be used Is is never is never mentioned

As that article will go into when you go into the Old Testament text you'll find Old Testament texts that use agar adzo and this language

Desperate that does taste language of a sovereign Lord assigning certain people even to positions of Judgments and that'll go into that So that's the background of the second

Peter 2 1 text. It's it's a it's a long article Yeah, I got it up here. Okay, you got there

What advice would you have to a young? Apology somebody who wants to be an apologist to somebody who works full -time.

I study systematic theology. When do I start learning Greek? Because I want to study these things before I start studying philosophy in depth.

Oh Yeah, I think that that choice right there is the most important one that is

Yeah, but left my own devices I would take that to the degree and get the equivalent of PhD in systematic theology before how much do

I? Right get my theology down before I go on to the philosophy, right?

Well, that is where you'll get an exactly opposite answer from me than you would get from William Lane Craig suggested people

Study the philosophy and not theology obviously from my perspective The theology is first and I would say that in studying systematic theology

I am very much a biblical theologian and I think the original languages are absolutely vital

I don't care what you're studying if you're studying systematic theology You'll you will read great theologians and yet even great theologians will say some pretty silly things about certain texts and you have to be able to Go into the exegesis those texts and even then you can look at the greatest exegetes and sometimes exegetes have

Blind spots or carelessness or more often than not a political agenda denominational agenda, whatever else it might be and so I You can you can get started on Greek and as a mathematician you've already got

Yeah, you've already you've got you've got that you've got the alphabet down already. I would imagine so that's not a that's not a big deal

I would I would put it very high on the priority list and very early on in the studies because I consider it

I consider an absolute tool a foundational element to be able to go there

And if you at least you do Greek even then The vast majority of your citations the

Old Testament from the Greek Septuagint anyways, so that that gives you a real head start I'm not saying don't study

Hebrew But what I am saying is the vast majority of your your citations can be in Greek anyway so I gotta do

Hebrew too because I have a unique insight where I believe it's insight on Old Earth Young Earth Well, I found that there's a common presupposition that I'm not convinced.

It's necessarily true. Okay. Well If it's true, then old earthers necessarily deny creation ex

Nilo Interesting. Well, obviously having the having the languages down is is extremely helpful.

It's not a Gnostic Initiation into something, you know, I've said many times What is the original

Greek saying? Well, it's pretty much same thing the English says but it does it is absolutely vital to evaluate

Claims people make in regards to things so highly recommended. All right. Okay. Thank you very much.

Okay. Thanks, John By the way, I don't know if anyone put that in channel

Skype lines. Oh, oh, it says has lots of Skype Skype lines open.

He can have more than one Never mind, that's okay. Just just nod. Yes or no. He can have more than one sort of yes and no, okay

It's a bit of a nuanced answer He can put them all on hold but he'd have to have to transfer them over here which takes a few seconds before We connect up.

Okay. All right, but anyway dividing that line will still work. All right I'm just looking at the amount of time here and trying to get the calls in the right order

They came in let's talk with Adam down in in muggy st.

Petersburg It is very buggy here. This is not a Skype call. You know, I'm sure you can hear that. Yes, unfortunately, that's okay

I look at even dr. White. Um one question one comment related to air gun canner

This is actually the second time I called the show concerning air gun canner And as you can imagine because the situation is just really highly offensive to me and it's a lie

It's the politics. It's a celebrity pastor syndrome the animal intellectualism

So insulting and disgusting I just I just feel thankful for you.

Dr. White. Well, I don't want it Why don't you do not want Adam on she got the fence and tell us how you really feel about this

Okay, I mean this post this post modern feel -good stuff that you're doing here just isn't gonna cut it with me.

Okay, I know Are you wearing pink right now perhaps

My Question is only semi related to Airgun canner in some clips you played that recently from canner at a speaking engagement.

I think in May It sounded like canner referred to dr. Broderson. I'm referring to Brian Broderson I'm not sure.

I'm not sure about that. I don't remember that. I don't think that I don't think that he did I think I would have caught that because I know that's not the case

Okay, that's my point I'd heard that I'd come out of the Calvary Chapel non -denomination

Denomination and I never heard that before so I just want to check. Yeah. No, I don't think I think he simply said

Brian Broderson Has a heat that he and Brian Broderson have the same hater

Which is his way of his kind and loving and brotherly way of referring to yours. Truly. Yes Good.

Yeah, I may have just misheard that then Second point I'm a military officer here And thank you for your service.

Well, thank you. Thank you. It's just an arm in the National Guard But recently came to light in the media that another officer

Had claimed for a long time to be a Navy SEAL and turned out he actually wasn't He had lied

Pretty overtly and explicitly he lied impressed people and they get them to say who and ah yeah,

I wouldn't do that about the seals the seals take that very personally and Those guys are scary.

Okay, there is this no other way to put they are scary people No, it's tough training to get in.

So but he basically lied and and he's likely to be facing charges for that and And as you can imagine, that's pretty highly offensive to everyone including other military officers

But what I'm wondering is if dr. Norman Geisler was this man's pastor or this man's commanding officer

What do you stand up for this man good question because you know, he only said really misstatements

And what this man says church discipline if you want to you know, dr. Geisler's church Well, let's remember something

Dr. Geisler is very closely associated with the non -denominational denomination And if you know the non -denominational denomination, which is a lot longer to say than Calvary Chapel But if if you know that denomination, you know the one thing that you can do to make sure to get your church kicked out instantly from the

Non -denominational denomination is to begin to engage in church discipline by having a membership role

They just they're you are not allowed to have membership and be part of the Calvary Chapel movement

Which is the only way you can do church discipline You can't put somebody out if the if they weren't in in the first place So I don't there it's it's a it's a theoretical question

It doesn't have any answer because there's no way of answering the question because they can't do church discipline in that way However, as I mentioned on wretched radio today, which will air tomorrow

I I have to recognize I am I am very strongly convinced that Norman Geisler's role in this situation is

Primarily due to his deep dislike of me If I was not the one

That has been on point now other people have done much more work than I've done I mean, I've spent hours listening to Ergon Cantor lectures and stuff like that.

Sure, but Turretin fan and Jason Smathers and others have been doing the yeoman's work on the

Christian side of things and of course Muhammad Khan Did a lot of the research on the Islamic side if I hadn't been the one through whom so much of this has become known to other people

I Don't know that Norman Geisler would have done what he did But I think there is such a deep animosity going back to the

Potter's freedom and not just the Potter's freedom But the endorsements on the Potter's freedom that what we're seeing right now is

Due to who I am and Norman Geisler's dislike of who I am because of what happened almost a decade ago

So I don't know that there's any I could do about that. It just so happens. I am reformed and I responded to dr

Geisler's book and I did so in a way that I think it's been helpful to a lot of people but at the same time

I Was the one that initially discovered? Through Muhammad Khan and brought into the

Christian community that this man was claiming to have debated people I actually have debated and I knew he had not debated and So it's a confluence of things

I honestly think that he would not be doing this if if I was not The one that was really pushing the the issue on the

Christian side of things So that's I do not understand that mindset. I just I do not understand it

It is such you want to it's just all I want to say to dr Geisler when I hear the things he said and posting and and to hear you say what you think might be the issue

It's like what a big baby Well, I don't think about baby. Well Adam think about something.

I told the story a little while ago I'm not sure if you heard it. I'll be very brief. But remember when dr

Geisler did not go on a local radio program because He knew that I lived in this area and he talked with the host that program afterwards one of the things that the host that he told that host was

He said that I had stuck my nose in something. It was none of his business This was back. This was back in 2000 2001 that area

When I wrote the Potter's Freedom and one of the things that he said was That a this was between him and RC Sproul Now anybody that can think that a discussion of the gospel itself

Was between himself and some other big name There's a problem right there.

I mean in in every book I've ever written It has never crossed my mind that this was between me and somebody else

I I'm with you. I can't even begin to understand that mindset And I have prayed

God no matter what the future holds for me. Never let me have that mindset

Yeah, and I also know that dr. Geisler does not believe he can learn from anyone younger than himself.

He told me that He just again if he is so smart and if he is dr.

Geisler, who is just we should just bow in adoration And you're this lonely Dr. James White, then he should be glad me to beat you because he's so much smarter than you

Well now you're you're looking for consistency there and you ain't gonna get anything out of that.

But no, you know, I I I'd I do believe that dr. Geisler needs to very seriously consider his motivations and what he's doing here.

There's no question about it It is it is an amazing thing to me that That he would just post in essence the excuses that Eric and Cantor has provided to him

And in doing so do great damage to his own credibility, I it's it's a shame

I've never seen anything like this before but at the same time I've tried to avoid

Letting it. I mean I could let this thing eat me up. I really could I mean that What it's cost us per you know as a ministry the the personal nastiness that has been sent.

My direction is Beyond anything else I've ever done, but I just have to you know, put it in the

Lord's hands say Lord Your church needs some help and I want to do everything

I can and be as respectful as I can and Not get in the way personally because people obviously are trying to put me there and So, you know,

I try to walk a walk a line, but hey Adam, I've got a bunch of other callers got to get in here

Thanks, God bless 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. Oh my goodness. We've got a bunch of going on here

But looking at the times I need to go with I've got Dwayne Ben and James Hopefully I can try to get y 'all in as quick as I can and Dwayne's on a landline.

Hi Dwayne Hi, dr. White. How are you doing? Good good. I recognize and respect a true scholarship when

I hear it I have never heard of you before until I Listen to your debate with dr.

Michael Brown. Mm -hmm I I have followed dr. Brown for a long time and I have a tremendous respect for his intellectual scholarship and and his commitment to To the kingdom of God.

I've been puzzled ever since I heard that debate And I'm and I'm hopefully you can help me resolve this since you and he are debating as I just heard together

Next month you obviously have a lot of respect for him as well I hope that came out during our

Conversation. No, it's a very civil debate and I and I you know, it was good I've just been puzzled ever since and the part

I'm puzzled is is who won the debate. Yeah, I Mean, it's like you went toe -to -toe with Mike and you did a good job on that and I and I've been in a process of giving your

Position very serious consideration. In fact, I bought your book the Potter's freedom and I've worked my way through Most of it at this point and I'm still puzzled at coming from a very strong Armenian background and So I'm asking you how do you resolve this in your mind?

With I think a scholar who's just as bright as you are and just as knowledgeable about Greek and Hebrew But comes to a different conclusion about this predestination issue.

Mm -hmm Well, I obviously as as a reformed theologian I I don't believe that I can force someone to embrace an understanding of of God's sovereignty that is not born by the

Spirit of God and The Lord allowed me to go through Portions of my life as a

Christian without a full understanding of these things and that was in his purpose and I can't question that I am

NOT one of those people that says that all of my Arminian brothers are on a bobsled to hell or anything else

I believe it's a matter of consistency and I Obviously as I said during the debate

I see an inconsistency in in dr.

Brown's interpretation in this area and I think when you listen to His initial programs that he did sometime

I think was last December if I recall correctly where he talked about why he's not a

Calvinist I think you can discern the outlines there of why There is an inconsistency and why he takes the position that he does.

I don't believe that in this lifetime There is going to be an absolute unanimity of opinion

God has his purposes for why he Allows people to hold the positions that he does

And Clearly if you go back, you'll find people like Whitfield and Wesley that went at it with fork and tongs and yet saw in each other

The clear signs of the Spirit of Christ and a desire for the growth of God's kingdom from my perspective

I am more than happy to simply present my position and say I honestly believe that if you'll use the exact same

Methodology of interpretation and your defense of the deity of Christ and the resurrection if you'll just stay

Consistent and apply it to those texts and those passages that you'll come to the same conclusion

Am I going to you know beat somebody over the head with a with a two by four if if they don't?

That's not going to accomplish anything You know, I don't think either one I don't think Mike or I back down at all

Despite our attempting to do this in as brotherly a possible way just like when I debated pastor

Bill Shishko Who is with me a fellow reformed theologian, but we disagree very strongly on the issue of pedo -baptism

Well, we had a brotherly debate on that subject and neither one of us backed down.

Neither one of us had to compromise We the thing that I loved about that debate with Bill Shishko and with Michael Brown is what did we both do?

we went to the Word of God and we presented our case to the people of God and We can we can leave it in that in that way.

We don't have to go to something outside of Scripture We don't have to try to you know, bring in some external authority We can allow the the

Word of God to speak in those areas and trust that God will accomplish his purposes through that. So I I trust the

Spirit of God to work with his people and I think Michael would say the exact same thing You know, he has a much more charismatic perspective than I do

But I think that's on the level of trusting the Spirit of God I really do trust the Spirit of God to do with his people as as he says he's going to do and so Would I like to have a magic a magic formula?

To to you know make Mike want to move down here to Phoenix and join the Phoenix for him Baptist Church.

Sure But it doesn't it doesn't work that way. So You know That's that's the best

I can do fair enough. Good good response And I guess I'm still sort of Standing in the middle between you guys.

I like both of you. I like both of your I respect both of your positions, so I'll just have to struggle this my own way through this my

Environment that I'm in I live in a rural community and they're all Armenians. There's no reformed

Right Just in the immediate area, so so I'm surrounded by Armenians and It's like either

I worship with them or I or I or I don't go and so I understand well hopefully

You know keep keep studying keep looking there's there's a lot better writers than I R .C.

Sproul has got some great stuff on that subject. Listen to his series on chosen by God and the holiness

I actually I'd actually listen to his series on the holiness of God then chosen by God personally, but there's there's some great writers out there and If you're looking for a fellowship to visit to talk with him like that,

I bet you we could track one down someplace There's some there's some good folks there in in Missouri, but I live

I'm on a rural area They have they have more general Baptist churches down here than they have saloons. So Alrighty, thank you.

I am two hours from Dallas. I hope to see you in December Where are you going to be again and a covenant Covenant of Grace Church?

Grace Church on Sunday the 5th of December, right? I'll actually be there Friday night

Saturday and Sunday for a symposium of some sort. Yeah, I'll be actually speaking on New Testament reliability

I look forward to that. I'll come up and see you. All right. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you Very good call there.

Let's talk to ah, let's talk to Ben. Hi Ben Hello, can you hear me?

Okay, I can hear you just fine cuz you're on Skype Okay, I have two quick questions and then

I'll hang up and let you answer. Yes, sir Do you use presuppositional apologetics when debating Muslims?

If so, could you give an example of how that affects your arguments as opposed to being strictly evidential? Okay, let's let's define our terms if you're referring to presuppositional apologetics in the sense of the use of transcendental argumentation to prove the existence of the triune

God No, I I know that that Greg Bonson Did believe that presuppositionalism was a was a pan pre pan apologetic methodology

But you're dealing with fellow monotheists who believe in a God that created all things and so in the sense of providing an internal critique of The inconsistencies of Islam.

I think that is vitally important, but I don't see how the transcendental argument is necessarily applicable to a

Thoroughly monotheistic theistic system as you would have in Islam. So on One level yes and on one level no on the level of of only going to a presupposition regarding The transcendental argument no on the level of providing an internal critique of The necessary inconsistencies of Islam because they don't have a triune

God. Yes ding So what did you have a second question is he gone

Ben I guess Ben's gone. So can we go to James?

One second. Okay. I lost Ben there, but hopefully hopefully that was I thought

Ben said he had a second a second thing there, but Can we bring James up? James is in England James.

Are you there? James is not there We're transferring him over we are transferring him over and I don't know how this process

On the other end has to receive my text message. Oh Operator on the other end. Hello operator on the other end

You must transfer James over to us very quickly here. We have to go a little long We don't want to cut

James off completely because he has what looks like a good question there and Still no answer from from a

Oman a Hello James, are you there

James? I hear you Hey James, I wasn't expecting that that might the feed is way behind here.

Okay, I'm sorry You'll have to turn the turn with the feed down and just go with what you can hear over Skype Yeah, okay.

Sorry about that. I was on hold as well. Yes, sir. Anyway, um, I Was I'm just wondering um,

I was wondering how you would harmonize the accounts of them who was where On the morning of the resurrection

That's a huge question, I mean goodness that that's a that's a study unto itself

So in in just a few moments, I would I would direct you to a number of the possible harmonizations that have been provided For example by by Gleason Archer drawing from older gospel commentaries but I I Think that would be a worthwhile entire program topic

For certain aspects of it, but I'll be very honest with you. It would it would require at least an hour just simply to read the texts to provide the

What what the what the issues are in regards to where was Mary when did Mary meet with the

Apostles when did Mary meet Jesus? When does Mary leave from the other women? All the rest that stuff it's a huge huge topic that I I don't think is is

Even possible to address in a in a in a brief period of time But that's that is on my subject list someday to go through all of that because it would probably take

Three or four programs to actually do it justice Okay, good also, are you still planning on doing that show about the um,

I forgot the name now Book of Enoch and the assumption of Moses in those books well

Hmm. Yeah, but you know, unfortunately right now with with six debates coming up and four of them are

Roman Catholic one's atheist and one's Unitarian That's obviously where my mind's got to be right now.

So I don't expect that there's gonna be too much discussion of those issues In even though it might come up in the bodily assumption debate with Robertson Janice, though,

I doubt it. So maybe you know if that's on the platter,

I I know that in talking about the possible debates in London One of the topics came up Was really more

Trinitarian, but it might come up there. So it for me it's when you in London next Lord willing in February Lord willing

Friends say hi then. Yeah, that would be good. That'd be excellent. So But sorry, we can't get into all that right here at the end of the program, but it is a good subject

It's something we need to do and but we need to do it fully and it's it's it's it's a a big challenge

I actually I've got to do it Sometime in the not -too -distant future because I'm teaching through the synoptic

Gospels and we're getting toward Passion Week. So Whether you know one way or the other I'm gonna be teaching through it at PR BC Therefore it would make perfect sense to combine that with some dividing line programs on it as well

Okay. Thanks. I Love how all the American reform folks when always talking about where America is going always say look at England Well, you gotta admit you've got some real issues there

But of course you have a complicating factor you have a state you have an apostate state church. Oh It's horrible.

It's just awful Oh, it is but it complicates the issues and and really

Makes you unique you know and It's tough to see but remember there still are some good

Anglicans out there like good old David down in Australia But they're all down near Sydney. So We need to ship all the

Sydney Anglicans up your direction and revitalize that church. But anyway, hey James got a run Thank you for your call.

Yeah All right, God bless bye -bye Alrighty, that'll do it for the dividing line today. Got some great calls in there great caller driven show

I will try to blog once I get to once I get to Detroit next week I'll just try to see what we can do as far as the program is concerned

But remember I'll be on the Aramaic broadcasting network. So be watching praying for those programs even call in why not?

That's that's good thing to do too. We'll see you next week then up there in Detroit. God bless You The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at six. Oh two nine Seven three four six zero two or write us at P o box three seven one zero six,

Phoenix, Arizona Eight five zero six nine. You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks