Steven Anderson Gets Famous, Some Calls, and More William Lane Craig

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning still sound a little bass don't

I a little Barry whitish, but That's that's okay feel. All right, just That that stuff is just won't go away it's kicked in the old asthma and so we're fighting that off But still still gotten about 46 miles in so far this week.

So we're still We're still doing. All right No, no, I that was completely fortuitous.

Mr. Latin Anyways, the studio audience is again misbehaving as always but that's okay.

We can we can live with that speaking of misbehavior. I was listening to the local drive time talk show host on our local

Talk station there used to be two of them. The other one went off to FM land and nobody found it again

It just died. It was just I think there's about four old people in Sun City. Listen that station down But the other one the big one the one that I was on used to be on all the time

I mean for a while there I was just I mean I almost lived down there but Then they took my card out of the

Rolodex I think and that was that was it but anyway the fellow who's the afternoon guy is former congressman

J .D. Hayworth and I remember seeing J .D. Hayworth of North Phoenix Baptist Church. I'm not sure if that's where he still goes.

That was her still goes I think it is. Yeah, okay So and isn't that where McCain had his town hall last weekend a weekend before last whenever it was

I noticed from the pictures. I said that that looks somewhat familiar been there long a long time ago back from 1978 to 1989 actually is the the time frame that I was there anyway

And J .D. Hayworth was talking about a local pastor who's become a well, let's just say that this fellow likes attention and I've known about this fellow for a long time.

The first time I heard about Steven Anderson was because he is a

King James only advocate and I'm looking at the doctrinal statement of the faithful word

Baptist Church over in Tempe and You always know when the

The thing starts the statement of faith starts with these words, you know, what's coming later

We believe that the in bold, please notice it's in bold We believe that the

King James Bible is the Word of God without error, that's the first statement On the doctrinal statement of the faithful word

Baptist Church. They're King James only folks and I Don't know what it is about King James only isn't it makes people just a little bit on the weird side well, actually sometimes way over on the weird side when you look at people like Gil Ripplinger and Peter Ruckman, you know, we can start going down a long road here of some really interesting folks, but They like to use bold and underline in italics and then bold italics and Underline italics and when you're they're really really upset about something bold italics underline that's

How is it that adopting the the King James only position makes you

Do that I I've not really figured it out. But anyway It's a pretty short doctrinal statement, but I I did notice a little bit farther down the eye sort of catches these things

There there really isn't Interestingly enough. There's no affirmation of the Trinity here

It does say we believe Jesus is God and there's Jesus Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost the Virgin Mary, but there's nothing

There's nothing defining The doctrine of the Trinity here I'm just gonna read.

This is really interesting some of these things here We believe in the eternal security believer one saved all was saved.

That's a ticket punch going to heaven We believe then say we'll spend eternity and torment in a literal hell We believe the

Jesus is God the Jesus Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost, but the Virgin Mary We believe only in the local church and not in a universal church

What does that mean? There's no universal church Or is there only one local church,

I don't know I haven't figured that one out then the next one we reject the teaching of Calvinism and Then check this out and believe that God wants everyone to be saved now.

Remember this is the same fellow Yes, I am talking about the fellow who has made national news by having preached the sermon week ago

Sunday night Specifically stating that he hates

Barack Obama and That he wants Barack Obama to die and That he wants

Barack Obama now. He didn't say this in his sermon But he was interviewed by our the local one of the local

TV stations And I have that clip and I'm gonna play that clip for you here.

We'll let you we'll let you hear What what what kind of local news our local

King James only and that this guy by the way? He's the one who did the sermon on The text from Isaiah in the

King James Version About relieving oneself against the wall, but he used the

King James language And I mean that that sermon went all over the internet

I mean I was I don't know how many copies that one I was sent and then

Sometime I don't know about six months or so ago He refused to get out of his car at a stop along the

California Arizona border And so the cops broke into his car and tased him and So there's this video of him getting tased and all the rest of stuff and all the lawsuits and all the rest of stuff that He's doing

So he just loves attention obviously I mean He's he's he's looking for it and probably eating it up because a lot of these guys a lot of these

King James only guys Figure oh that's persecution means I must be doing God's will you know that's what the street preachers are into too

But anyways here's some here's the the local channel 10 Interview with with pastor president and praise for his death listen to what he said when we talked to him today

Yeah, I hope that God Strikes Barack Obama with brain cancer so he can die like Ted Kennedy You know and I hope it happens today more strong words from pastor

Steve Anderson about President Barack Obama He continues to encourage his parishioners to pray for the president's death

But he says he doesn't condone killing I will not take the law into my own hands.

I will not take up any arms. It's a spiritual battle It's a spiritual warfare this morning about 30 parishioners at the faithful word

Baptist Church Were met by a few protesters a pastor a man of the cloth doesn't condone

Assassinating people and that's the reason he's not a pastor. He's a pastor some of them tried to go into the church

They were denied. I find it incomprehensible that someone can say they believe in the message of Jesus and And preach hate

Tempe police patrolled the area to make sure things didn't get out of hand Many parishioners walked into the church carrying guns on their hips

One of them Christopher Broughton got national attention for bringing an ar -15 to a rally outside the

Phoenix Convention Center Where the president was speaking would you be interested in clarifying that at all

I? Mean do you think this sermon is what prompted you to bring the gun in hi there?

He didn't want to talk about whether the pastor's sermon Motivated him to bring a rifle to the rally if anything

I was talking him down not riling him up pastor Anderson says his hatred of Obama and former

President Bush Stems from his views on abortion and the Iraq war look up the word hate look up the word abhor look up the word loathe

And you'll see that there are a lot of people who God hates and who we should hate But see I didn't write that that's in the

Bible the pastor says since he posted his sermon about the president on YouTube He and his family have received death threats if people want to wish death on me.

I don't have a problem with that but when people say I'm coming and Killing you and your family within the next 36 hours.

That's different than them hoping or wishing something in their mind And we did talk to the

White House today. They have no comment Yeah, I'm sure Yeah, and I have to admit mr.

Hayworth did point something out. That's that I I Haven't had time recently to be a big news

Person it only happened that I was running an errand yesterday, so I had the radio on the car So that's why I heard this stuff.

I had I had heard some of the stuff that have been going on The guy showed up at the rally with the r -15 song on his back is from this guy's church

That was first thing, but then it was pointed out that the media zoomed in on stuff

So you couldn't tell he's african -american So a bunch of the Eastern Press outlets were doing racism stuff and everything else

But he's an african -american, and they didn't even mention that nothing was even talked about that so anyway there's there's some of Excuse me

Steven Anderson's stuff and and People should not be surprised by this

King James only us are this way haven't you ever listened to Peter Ruckman haven't you ever listened to Gail Ripplinger?

Haven't you listened to I mean when when I put videos up of Sam Gipp calling me a liar and all this stuff

You know I sort of chuckle about cuz I'm used to this This is this is the mindset of the independent fundamentalist

Baptist King James only It's not the independent fundamentalist Baptist. I feel sorry for independent fundamentalist

Baptists Who are not King James only us who do not have this worldview that allows you to Just you know it's it's us against everybody else.

There's you know There there's nobody outside of our tiny tiny little group that that's even saved

You know that kind of a mindset Allows you to to say this kind of stuff now the problem is that When when we try to say serious things for example if I were to say

I believe very firmly that people who promote Godlessness in a position of authority in a society will answer to God for that There will be a day when they stand before God and not to be able to say

I was just politics man You know I mean You know that's the the issues of our society are moral issues and God is concerned about all those things and I know in I listened to the first I started listening to see before the big the big news broke on I'd started listening to The beginning of this sermon

I didn't get to the part about Barack Obama near that or it wasn't the beginning of the sermon I don't know which one it was but you know he went to passages in the

Psalter Psalm 5 5 things like that where God talks about hating the wicked and There's everything right to be said about people who think that the

Bible preaches this idea that Jesus the God is this You know this grandfather in the sky there's no wrath of God You know but when you when you are imbalanced as any

King James only is is by definition in that sense When you're imbalanced like this and you use this kind of rhetoric and You have all these other problems in your theology as well the result is well what we're seeing and anybody who would say that That the the policies that are promoting abortion and things like that and the

Degradation of our society and all the rest that stuff you're all we're all being whitewashed in the same way

By this kind of silliness because they're these people just don't think through what they're saying And in fact continue with their various perspectives no matter what the facts are that certainly has been our experience with King James only advocates all along so That part did not get mentioned as I was listening to all the calls calling in No one even picked up on that.

They didn't even make the connection There was a independent fundamentalist Baptist that called in hey, you know we're different than that you know

The fact is we are commanded to pray for our leaders that does not mean that we pray for their success

That does not mean that we pray that they're godless anti biblical anti Godly programs and policies succeed, but we are to pray for them first and foremost that they would be converted and Yes, we do pray that God would protect innocent children from from death as a result of these policies and and would protect the nation from the kind of debauchery that is a part of the worldview of So many people who are in power today

But to do what these people are doing and to lose their their balance completely and to Not recognize

That God's wrath is over every sinner who is not in Jesus Christ every single one including the politicians that you like the best, but who refuse to bow the knee to Christ God's wrath is just as much abiding over them and Unfortunately, it's that lack of balance that ends up causing a lot of people a lot of problems, so he is a local and I have a feeling we're gonna be hearing more in the future because I know his trial stuffs could be coming up pretty soon and It's gonna be

It's gonna be interesting, but it's a small group. I mean it's a very small little King James only Church What's that?

Yeah, well, you know it must be Fred Phelps, I saw the connection there There is a connection there.

No question about it, but there are some differences as well And but he definitely wants the he wants all the attention you can get and he's definitely definitely getting it

So anyway got other things queued up here want to talk a little bit, so William Lane Craig today But we'll take our one phone caller.

We have right now and talk with the George. Hi George. How are you? Doing all right For you, maybe you can help me.

Is there any resources you could point me to? That show that Sunday is the new day of worship under the new covenant

Well, yeah, there's a couple of things The screen here says you're dealing with some seventh -day

Adventists I have a friend who's a seventh -day Adventist that I went to the Westminster Confession of Faith And I I was really kind of disappointed with how they treated the thing

I didn't feel like it was doing a good enough job as far as convincing him well some of the well Whether something is convincing to someone or not is not a good judge as to whether it is a good resource

Because there are people who cannot be convinced by the best argumentation on the planet, so That's that wasn't meant to be an argumentation and there are

There are multiple ways in which The argument can can proceed and from a historical and biblical perspective.

I think that the best argumentation For the identification of the

Christian Day of Worship as the Lord's Day as Sunday as the first day of the week notice

I there's a difference between arguing for a change of Sabbath day and an argument for Sunday being the

Lord's Day Korea K. Hey Mara the Lord's Day Those are two different things and I think if you're dealing with a seventh -day

Adventist You're jumping the gun to try to go for the second argument before you go for the first argument which is establishment of the fact that the

Christians worship together as a group on the Lord's Day and I don't know if the book's still in print.

Maybe somebody can google it real fast or do something else, but The only book that I'm familiar with on that particular subject is called from Sabbath to Lord's Day Which if I recall correctly

Was edited by DA Carson somewhere back in the late 70s or early 80s one of the two maybe someone can pull up a link for me real quick on that, but That had in my opinion the best articles on the subject of the establishment especially from Revelation chapter 1 as I recall

The establishment of the first day of the week as the Korea K. Him era the day of the Lord upon which the the the worship was taking place, so that would be a

Resource that would be excellent for you from a number of different directions Especially because they were scholarly articles, which means they have bibliographies as well

So you're gonna get a wide variety of material from that Doctor what I appreciate you taking my call.

I appreciate your call. Thanks a lot a blessing Yes Interesting subjects often a rather divisive subject but Very important subject as well,

I suppose I should have just clicked on a link here and said from To learn say there it is right there and let's see if it's still available

And it is it has a new cover, and I was right edited by DA Carson and whoa 3423

I'm glad I got that back in the late 90s. I think I got it in the early 1980s now come to think of it

And it didn't cost thirty four dollars and twenty three cents Wow, that's a why is that so much even if it's especially well

It's 440 Oh whip -and -sock publishers. That's why yeah, they're they're not as big. That's that's why so anyways 444 pages there and that would be that'd be very useful

And so as I said, I want to get into some discussion of William Lane Craig today I was gonna do this last week, but didn't get around to it.

I was listening to some more of William Lane Craig's Sunday school lessons.

I didn't cover this did I mr. Pierce you're supposed to since I'm since I'm You know just back from Australia, and you know

I didn't I didn't play any William Lane Craig on Thursday today We got we got a lot of phone calls all right because I had it queued up Sometimes when

I think through something and I get it all queued up, then I you know days later I go well did I play it or did

I not this was this is what you get for being upside down for that long Yeah, you stand back up explains a lot of my

Australian friends, yeah, okay, all right, thanks They're gonna. They're gonna get me for that, but Actually gravity doesn't work that way in case you're wondering, but it's okay

It and by the way the the water does not go down the drain the opposite direction in Australia No storms do rotate the other direction do the

Coriolis effect But the drains too small for the Coriolis effect to have any impact now storms do twist the other direction

But there's a reason for it, but it was it was a common myth common myth, but it doesn't work that way and Food portions still are very small there, but that has nothing to do with the

Coriolis effect Anyway all right so William Lane Craig I Was listening to his

Sunday school lessons, and there was this big gap between the two I was listening to even though they were numbered consecutively, so I don't know if something didn't get recorded

I don't know if somebody else filled in I don't know if he was traveling. I don't know but the fact the matter is that There's something missing here

Because in the first one I listened to it's on justification Okay, the second one is on eternal security

He says as we mentioned last week the reformed view of this subject, and I didn't get that it's not there

I can't find it if someone can direct me to it. That'd be great But we're missing some stuff now listen to the stuff on justification, it's interesting because I Think I know which church.

This is in the Atlanta area in Georgia somewhere And they have quite an interesting group attending

Because he regularly has a Calvinist in the room and he regularly has a Catholic in the room because you you get both both perspectives in the questions, which is interesting and So I know that he knows they're there

So I I give Dr.. Craig kudos for trying to be accurate you know he does he doesn't do a lot of things that you would hear a

George Bryson do or you know everybody in the opening of the

Radio Free Geneva stuff He doesn't do any of that thankfully

But he's still a died -in -the -wool Arminian and how does

I just thought how does he teach at Biola and yet his Churches in Georgia, maybe

I'm wrong about that. Maybe the church is in California How does that work? I don't know. I thought it was in Georgia.

I could be wrong Anyway, I was listening to his discussion on the subject.

Oh look at the UBS man. Oh look at that isn't that beautiful Yes UPS man arriveth, and I feel like playing

Christmas music I Imagine one or two of those things are for me anyhow.

I was listening to talk about justification what what? Is there something

I'm missing here, he's in Atlanta he flies man. He flies a lot could I borrow some frequent flyer miles my goodness that would be a lot of Those both for me there very they're both for me.

All right, that's great. That's super only ones for me You got the big one.

Oh great fine No, no, no, you're not gonna open it. No you need to put that on my desk now leave it alone son

Boy, that scares me anyway Little distracted here. He's talking about justification and okay.

I liked most what he had to say But It's the same thing it's the same problem

I have When I listen to him debating on the existence of God the greater Probability, you know the majority of the information points the greater probability of the existence of a

God not God exists the Christian God exists, but you know it's really probable here and Well, let me just play this section for you here.

He's he's gone through Some stuff on justification and justification by faith and any just listen listen listen for yourself, so I hope

I've represented it fairly and Myself for my part.

I Think that the Protestant view is more Biblical I it seems to me that that the the notion of justification particularly as a process

Is and and that we increase in justification doesn't seem to me to be In line with Paul's teaching on this now certainly

I do think that we do grow in our righteousness as we walk with Christ, but I wouldn't see that as an increase in Justification before him which

I think is achieved by Christ so in my view You know it's more biblical

You know it's but you know, but it's a spectrum you know and This really flows out of what we heard before when when you start with a modified view of the

Council of Trent on what Consistent grounds can you then? Vary and go another direction when it comes to this subject

Because we heard if you weren't listening then we we listened to William Lane Craig presenting a contrast between Especially the subject of election and man's will and things like that He presents the reform view presents the view of the

Council of Trent and sort of and And you know if you're a Catholic this must really grate on you

But but it sort of takes his own view of the Council of Trent I like what Trent says up to this point

But I'd like to modify this and modify that now a good faithful consistent Roman Catholic goes

Who do you think you are to do that? Especially since the Council of Trent is coming up with his formulations not from sola scriptura

Not from the position that I would think That William Lane Craig would would affirm

So once you've got the wrong foundation, then you get to justification by faith. He says oh, yes, you know it's it's by faith alone, and it's it's not of works, and it's it's a

Forensic declaration by God that that seems to be more in line With the biblical view not this is the biblical view.

It's just more in line with that. It's it's more biblical You know the Catholic position is just a little bit less biblical, so it's a spectrum.

You know and That doesn't exactly provide you much of a real strong foundation for for providing

You know people with a with a basis for Evangelizing Roman Catholics and calling them to to leave the

Roman Catholic perspective now Then like I said the very next one.

I downloaded it looked like the only two I hadn't listened to before the very next one jumps one month and There was a bunch of stuff missing.

I don't know what happened. Maybe somebody can tell me but here's Here's how the discussion of the

Arminian view of Perseverance he mentions the rope reform view and then we jump to this the

Arminian perspective is quite different and That is what we turn to today on the

Arminian perspective Though the elect as a corporate body are secure and certainly will go to heaven the

Sick the Individual salvation is contingent and can be lost so there is a a corporate body remember which on the

Arminian view is is predestined to Justification and glorification all the rest that corporate group will make it

But whether or not you're part of that corporate group as an individual is contingent upon your faith it is it is the

The person who believes in Christ who will be saved so for example I have now

I want people to hear this because I I mentioned this Wednesday evening if you've been following the

YouTube videos Wednesday evening when I spoke at PR BC I Mentioned it again

Sunday evening in in the sermon and a number of folks have commented on how much this helped them

Think about what William Lane Craig is saying here from the Arminian perspective, and he later on admits. This is his perspective

He's got quote from Robert Shank and all the rest that stuff so this is his perspective He's he's doing the well. This is this view.

This is this view. I'll sort of let you figure out mine well We know what his view is from the

Arminian perspective the elect as a group are

Secure think about that for just a moment The elect are secure but Your Participation in the elect is based upon your continued faithfulness

So what does it mean to say? that the elect are

Secure if the individuals that make up the elect are not secure because it is up to their continued faithfulness and remember

We're you have to go back to the foundations And Arminian is a synergist

God does his part man does his part Saving faith is not a divine gift.

It's not the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will help you But the

Holy Spirit tries to help everybody with prevenient grace The Final decider is up to you.

No monergism No saving faith that it's the work of the gift of the work of the Spirit of God.

You don't have that So if your participation in the elect is based upon your continued faithfulness, and that's not something

It's guaranteed then how can you talk about the perseverance of the elect?

Since the elect Isn't a specific group. It's an nameless faceless group and your participation is based on your faithfulness

So isn't this double double speak isn't this? What what kind of meaning can that have we'll explore that a little bit more after we take our break.

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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you And Welcome back to the dividing line.

We are listening to William Lane Craig with those thoughts in mind Listen again to this introduction.

Keep in mind if you have the elect as an Unidentified group we fill in the identities not

God Then listen to this again and ask how the elect can be secure if the individuals in the elect are not

The Arminian perspective is quite different and that is what we turn to today on the

Arminian perspective though the elect as a corporate body are secure and Certainly will go to heaven the sick the

Individual salvation is contingent and can be lost So there is a corporate body remember which on the

Arminian view is is predestined to Justification and glorification all the rest that corporate group will make it but whether or not you're part of that corporate group as an individual is contingent upon your faith it is it is the

The person who believes in Christ who will be saved. So for example, so there's the idea the the elect

The elect is secure. God will save you as long as you are a part of this group now again

I just have to ask the question How does this differ in its final?

Outcome in how it looks from Roman Catholicism because Rome promises

Eternal life to those who do what? Who utilize the sacraments to be able to obtain the grace to obtain eternal life?

So it's your faithfulness the sacraments are there you just have to Do what you need to do?

It's up to you. God's made available and you just have to do what you need to do

That's Rome. This is why when Arminianism began to spread in the beginning of the 17th century

That many of the Reformed said this is simply a popeless return to Roman Catholicism because at its heart its synergism is

The same thing and this is what over the years. I remember a situation. I don't know how long ago it was now at least 10 years

Where I went out got invited to a church locally to go speak to a men's group

They had a great time I forget what I was talking about I believe I was talking about I Think I think may have been

Mormonism. It may have been reliability to scripture. I I don't remember the subject now But I wasn't asked, you know

I wasn't given some doctrinal test to take before I came and spoke at this place It was just a men's group.

They asked me to talk about something that you know, fine great. I did. Well, they decided they wanted to go to Salt Lake with us and That's when the issue of what we'd be distributing came up and they wanted to bring their own tracks

Because they don't believe in Sovereign grace and election so they wanted to pass out Arminian tracks but be with us as we were passing out

Reformed tracks and Had to say no say no that I mean if you want to go to Salt Lake And you know, there's there's other people to show up up there, you know fine, but if we're going up as a group we we can't be in Disagreement over something as fundamental as this and That has closed a lot of doors

Over the years, but it's absolutely necessary the Mormons see the difference

They recognize it. I remember the first times I was challenged on this was in a Mormon missionary Put his finger right on the inconsistency of my not yet fully reformed views.

They see it And it comes out rather rather clearly in these situations

Let's go ahead and take a phone call. That's on the same topic as we continue on. Let's talk with Patrick. Hi Patrick Hi, how you doing?

Dr. White good Yeah, I have a question about this whole corporate election idea that dr.

William Lane Craig has My question would be how does the

Arminian walk through Ephesians chapter 1? Where we see everything's after the

Council of God's will after his purposes how how do they walk through a text like that and Turn that into an idea of corporate election.

Well, that's exactly where they go to get corporate election They they just verse 4 just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world and they stop right there and say see this election takes place in Christ, so if you are in Christ Then you are the elect if you are not in Christ you are not the elect and so they they take the sphere of election and subtly turn it into the object of Election see the problem is verse 4 says just as he chose us

The direct object of choose is us it is not Christ Now what they frequently do is a run over to the section

Peter that talks about Christ as the as the elect Cornerstone and say well since he is the elect and we are elect in him

Then there is no personal aspect to Election itself, but that's that's mixing context.

First of all that they're not talking about the same thing and It's missing the fact that not only is the choosing of us

Only in Christ doesn't make Christ the one who's the elect one but it then says that we would be holy and blameless before him holy and blamelessness are not things that can be that Can Be a part of a group without it being true of the individuals you can talk about the church being holy and blameless

But that's because of the sanctifying work the spirit of each of the individual members in the church In pre in love he predestined us to what to adoption his son's adoption is clearly a personal thing

The the forgiveness of our redemption through his blood forgiveness of our trespasses all these things are clearly

Individual things that are true of all of the elect because of the fact that they are true of every single

Individual who is part of the elect, but what they do is they change the object into Christ and That's the realm in which

God does all these things all the everything that the elect experience is only in Christ So they switch those two things and then that way they can open the door to saying well the elect in Christ receive all these things but It's up to you as to whether you are in Christ or not

That's that's the argument if you listen to all the major names when you hear them present this you'll hear them

Quote that text from Ephesians 1 but they will not walk through the entirety of the text and go to the level of the grammar and identify what is a direct object and what isn't a direct object and what's what's in the the lock of instrumental dative cases and so on they don't do that they just Arminianism exists as a philosophical system that flits along on the top of the surface of Scripture It doesn't go deep you want you want illustrations of that I can give you video illustrations of that over and over again.

Dr. Sanders, but what about John 6 and what Jesus said? Well, it's been a while since I've looked at that text as he's flipping through the pages of his

Bible But you know, that's that's Arminianism. It is a philosophical system that that exists above The surface of the of the text of Scripture It does not derive from the depths of the text of Scripture.

That's that's the issue to keep in mind, right? Yeah, and and if we if we go through the text in Ephesians chapter 1 another flip side of trying to make that a corporate idea at least from from from what

I'm saying here is It seems like what they're saying is whenever it talks about God's purposes and the counsel of his will

They're just sort of general philosophical ideals, right? They're not specific purposes.

He doesn't have a specific Will he just has that he has a good hope for mankind. It seems like that's what they're saying

Well, you are reduced to that in many forms of Arminianism And that's why I've always said that that Arminianism is most consistent expression is open theism where you don't have any will of God at all in essence outside of just a

Very great. Hope that all things will turn out right in the end But but God doesn't know and and I think that is a consistent result now

Most Arminians are inconsistent at this point. They want to affirm that God has a purpose They want to affirm that there's there's a purpose for evil and things like that, but because they will not accept

God's self glorification in the one most important realm and that is in his work of Salvation They really are cut out.

It's it's cut out from underneath them. They can't really affirm those things and So as a result, you know

God wants the elect to be glorified and the elect will be glorified as long as they remain faithful and so glorification becomes this this general outcome

Not the specific outcome of any individual's life because that is eventually up to the individual himself and God's Knowledge of where that person is going to be glorified or not is dependent upon his foreknowledge looking into the future

It's not something he himself controls now. Remember William Lane Craig's a Molinist and So he has a way around that too

But it doesn't work as we've mentioned so many times before he could say well Yes, God knows who the elect are because he actuated the particular world where in in in examining all of the counterfactuals

That existed out there He found that that by by bringing this particular world into existence

The maximum number of people would be saved So he knows who's gonna be saved not because he elected them

But because he worked out out of all these myriads of possible worlds that this would be the world

Where the maximum number of people would be saved That's a world of difference from God's sovereignly electing

Unregenerate sinners and bringing them to faith in himself. That's that's that's that's a supercomputer

Looking through all the various possibilities and coming up with the one that gives you the best result, but there's a scary scary

Result to that too, and that is God could not have saved everyone It's beyond his power.

It's beyond his capacity when God created God had to send people to hell He could not have saved everyone if he had decided if he even if he desired to do so Hmm right, so the the

Mullen ism is a Cheap way around some really really major issues, and it just really doesn't work

Well, can I can I ask you one more question about concerning what you said about? Verse 4 in Ephesians 1 sure so when they when they take that and they make this some sort of general corporate idea

With with Christ well, okay Then let's look to Christ is what they're saying then

That God had the same sort of wishful thinking idea when it came to what Christ accomplished

That maybe maybe Christ succeeds on the cross and maybe he doesn't is that well in the same way there have that's where the open

Theism goes yes, but the the historical Arminian Remember the historical

Arminian does not have a substitutionary view of the Atonement anyways. He has the governmental Viewpoint of the

Atonement where the Atonement is not a legal penal transaction anyways, so a lot of the people you see writing today against substitutionary

Atonement they're coming from the Arminian perspective because that's just To hold to substitutionary Atonement is to be reformed in the first place and anybody who says

Jesus died for me But is an Arminian is just ignorant of the history that he's drawing from even though He'll probably tell you well.

I'm just going with the Bible brother is is probably where he's gonna be going from there So the the whole concept then from the

Arminian perspective at least historically Would not be that that Christ's death was uncertain but what it accomplishes is different than the salvation of a specific people a and B they would historically make a distinction between the

God man and sinful men as To their activities in time as well, I would imagine so you can find

Historical Arminians that are going to hold to a at least semi Orthodox doctrine of God the question is can they be consistent in doing that and It was you know 150 years ago

We need to have as much rampant skepticism and secularism the very fact of believing the Bible's Word of God kept a lot of these things from sort of exploding into the spectacular panorama of heresy

That we see all across the Western world today I Got you and how do things like prophecy play into that view does it is

God? Is God getting lucky there well well for the further for the the

Arminian that holds to the simple foreknowledge view God can give prophecy because God can see future events because of his eternal nature

They're all simultaneous to him and they would say and of course the problem then there is from their

Arminian perspective how can you say God should be glorified for what takes place in time if God is merely passively taking in knowledge of The events in time itself if God is not sovereign over these events why glorify him for for the outcome?

That doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't think it makes any sense to anybody else But that's the simple foreknowledge view is that that when

God created? Time was Remains to him since he exists eternally a an ever -present now

And so he has knowledge of what is future to us because it is a present reality to him Even though he's not the one that determined those events so he can prophesy on the basis of that But the open theist recognizes that that messes everything up as far as free will goes because now if God knows

What I'm gonna have for lunch today I can't have anything else and so if I'm gonna be really free then

God can't know what I'm going to do as a free Will creature and that's where open theism comes in or then you throw the

Molinist spin on all that in there Which again is just a fruitless way of trying to? Protect the free will of man and and as we already discussed that so there you go all right well.

Thank you very much doc I I certainly appreciate all right. Thanks for calling Patrick. Thank you all right God bless all right, so here's

If you if you want to see the centrality of your faith here's here's synergism and And how it works a quote from Robert Shank so here what

Paul says is that? If you are grafted into Christ it is through your faith that you stand firm

But if you fall away if you Go into unbelief if you commit apostasy you will be broken off And will fall then under the severe judgment of God Robert Shank whom

I quoted before on the subject of election from an Arminian point of view

Has a good passage in his book elect in the Sun on page 49 that I thought

I would read to you that bear out this contrast between corporate security, but an individual contingent sort of security

He says the possibility of apostasy posits the corporate nature of the election the scriptures bear witness to actual instances of apostasy and Abound with solemn warnings against the peril which contrary to the assumptions of some is real rather than hypothetical

Consider the following and then here he quotes a couple of verses God's eternal purpose in grace

Ephesians 1 4 He chose us in Christ that we should be

Holy and blameless before him Ephesians 1 4 he chose us in Christ that we should be holy and blameless before him

Colossians 1 22 Now I just stopped right there See in the

Arminian way of thinking it Then becomes our holiness and our blamelessness and our faithfulness and persevering and holiness and blamelessness which determines whether his

Purpose will be accomplished. That's man -centered salvation. That's that's Romanism. That's Arminianism That's that's that's that kind of perspective.

They are all united together in that and I've said many many times before this is this is the difference between reading the

Bible in a God -centered fashion or in a man -centered fashion When I look at Ephesians 1 4

It's already talked about blessing God for what he's done Just as he chose us in him before the foundation world that we would be holy and blameless before him.

That's his purpose That's what he is accomplishing. That's why he is to be glorified.

That's why he is to be praised Not oh, this is what he'd like to do if We will cooperate and In so many people's lives, there's no cooperation

Therefore God's purpose for them is not fulfilled Did I miss something in that you probably did cuz you've been talking

Well, and when he quoted that verse, did I did I miss when he said before the foundation of the world?

I? Because it he never said it he quoted it just as he chose us in him that we should be holy and blameless

Eternal purpose in grace say visions 1 4 He chose us in Christ that we should be

Holy and blameless before him Ephesians 1 4 he chose us in Christ that we should be holy and blameless

Before him. Well, he's quoting from Shank and I don't have I Don't think I have shank in here

As soon as I said that I had to go look because I do have a number And hey look at that page 49

Look at that not even a dot dot dot I News to me page 49

God's for a purpose and grace visions 1 4 he chose us in Christ that we should be how you sky anomalous before him

Nothing about it. There's there's no dot dot dot nothing along that all now all he's doing here is

Saying that God's purpose is that we should be holy and blameless and he's going through the places We're holy and blameless is but he left out the before the foundation of the world.

Yes, it is. There it is I'm holding it in my little hand there elect in the Sun. They study the doctrine of Election, so very interesting.

Okay. All right. Let me get one more in here because we're almost out of time They finish up and so people are asking questions and a

Catholic ask the questions of like that Here's here's where the Calvinist comes in and you can't hear the questions, but you can hear his response which is right here

Sure. I mean that is the Calvinistic view and I think that and you're certainly right to Bob and saying that there were undoubtedly mixed groups in these churches that there were some who were just seekers and not real believers or maybe even there were hypocrites who knows

I Think the question is going to be and I'm not going to try to settle this for you

But the question is going to be these Descriptions that they give of someone who has been enlightened

Tasted the heavenly gift come to the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Can those be?

Descriptions of these pseudo Christians that you mentioned that that's going to be the issue I think so he had gone through the text in Hebrews, which

I'm going through. I've already gone through a number of them In preaching at the Phoenix Reform Baptist Church, and we're trying to get those recorded and posted

I didn't do that this last weekend because there was just no way that I was be able to handle Hebrews 4 with the short period of preparation that I had so we did

John 10 and some folks really liked especially the evening service, but he goes through those and his assertion is the descriptions, especially in Hebrews 6 cannot be of unbelievers they have to be of true believers who have truly been a part of Christ and My assertion is just the opposite these are mixed audiences

Bob the Calvinist Lord bless you Bob press on don't know how you survive it, but Bob the

Calvinist is right that these descriptions do not Indicate individuals it does not say, but you were joined to Christ you were one of his sheep

You died with Christ None of that language is used it is language that would refer to people who in the congregation

Would experience the blessings that one gets when you are in the congregation When you are enlightened about God's purposes

And you you see the gifts of the Holy Spirit and operation around you and you've tasted of the good

Gifts of the age to come that's that's what happens when someone is exposed

To the gospel message in the fellowship of the church But the text in Hebrews 6 itself says, but we are convinced of better things

How can they be better things if those are the things that actually come to salvation no one's ever been Lance that for me And there you see and I think that was let's see maybe 45 seconds out of the entire

Class discussion where the truth of the matter was actually raised for a moment and Then very quickly forgotten and moved on from there but Pray for Bob the

Calvinist wherever Bob the Calvinist is I guess in Georgia someplace Who everyone's well you know gets gets to say something right there and help help folks out, but?

He's he's fighting a losing battle, so what is all this about how many times?

I said it theology matters when the foundation when you start with the wrong foundation

You know I I'm thankful that William Lane Craig says we're justified by faith alone But then when you start unpacking when you start taking that apart he cannot affirm that as a clear

Affirmation that says that view therefore is wrong and that view therefore is wrong. Here's what the gospel is

It's well, you know I think this is you know a little more biblical type thing and That's just not how the

Apostles did it well We will continue on with our never -ending quest to draw the dividing line between truth and error

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