Steven Anderson Gets Famous, Some Calls, and More William Lane Craig

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Remarks and Local Radio Banter

Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning still sound a little bass don't I a little Barry whitish, but That's that's okay feel. All right, just That that stuff is just won't go away it's kicked in the old asthma and so we're fighting that off.

But still still gotten about 46 miles in so far this week. So we're still We're still doing. All right. No, no, I that was completely fortuitous. Mr. Wadden. Anyways, the studio audience is again misbehaving as always but that's okay.

We can we can live with that speaking of misbehavior. I was listening to the local drive time talk show host on our local Talk station there used to be two of them. The other one went off to FM land and nobody found it again.

It just died. I just I think there's about four old people in Sun City. Listen that station now and that's about it. But the other one the big one the one that that I was on used to be on all time I mean for a while there.

I was just I mean I almost lived down there but Then they took my card out of the Rolodex, I think and that was that was it but anyway the fellow who's the afternoon guy is former congressman J .D. Hayworth and I remember seeing J .D. Hayworth of North Phoenix Baptist Church.

I'm not sure if that's where he still goes that we're still goes I think it is. Yeah, okay. So and isn't that where McCain had his town hall last weekend a weekend before last whenever it was I noticed from the pictures.

I said that that looks somewhat familiar been there long long time ago back from 1978 to 1989 actually is the the time frame that I was there anyway. And J .D. Hayworth was talking about a local pastor who's become a well, let's just say that this fellow likes attention and I've known about this fellow for a long time.

The first time I heard about Steven Anderson was because he is a King James only advocate and I'm looking at the doctrinal statement of the faithful word Baptist Church over in Tempe and You always know when the The thing starts the statement of faith starts with these words, you know, what's coming later We believe that the in bold, please notice it's in bold.

We believe that the King James Bible is the Word of God without error. That's the first statement. On the doctrinal statement of the faithful word Baptist Church. They're King James only folks and I Don't know what it is about King James only isn't it makes people just a little bit on the weird side.

Well, actually sometimes way over on the weird side when you look at people like Gail Ripplinger and Peter Ruckman. You know, we can start going down a long road here of some really interesting folks but They like to use bold and underline and italics and then bold italics and Underline italics and when you're they're really really upset about something bold italics underline that's I don't know.

How is it that that adopting the the King James only position makes you do that? I've not really figured it out. But anyway It's a pretty short doctrinal statement, but I I did notice a little bit farther down the eye sort of catches these things.

There there really isn't Interestingly enough. There's no affirmation of the Trinity here. It does say we believe Jesus is God and there's Jesus Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost the Virgin Mary, but there's nothing.

There's nothing defining The doctrine of the Trinity here. I'm just gonna read this is really interesting some of these things here. We believe in the eternal security believer one saved all was saved.

That's a ticket punch going to heaven. We believe then say we'll spend eternity in torment in a literal hell. We believe the Jesus is God the Jesus Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost, but the Virgin Mary.

We believe only in the local church and not in a universal Church. What does that mean? There's no universal Church. Or is there only one local church? I don't know. I haven't figured that one out. Then the next one.

We reject the teaching of Calvinism and then check this out and believe that God wants everyone to be saved. Now remember this is the same fellow. Yes, I am talking about the fellow who has made national news by having preached the sermon week ago Sunday night.

Specifically stating that he hates Barack Obama and that he wants Barack Obama to die and That he wants Barack Obama. He didn't say this in his sermon but he was interviewed by our the local one of the local TV stations and I have that clip and I'm gonna play that clip for you here.

We'll let you we'll let you hear. What what what kind of local news our local King James only and that this guy by the way. He's the one who did the sermon on The text from Isaiah in the King James Version.

About relieving oneself against the wall, but he used the King James language. And I mean that that sermon went all over the internet. I mean, I was I don't know how many copies that one I was sent and then.

Sometime I don't know about six months or so ago. He refused to get out of his car at a stop along the California, Arizona border. And so the cops broke into his car and tased him. And so there's this video of him getting tased and all the rest of stuff and all the lawsuits and all the rest of stuff.

That he's doing. So he just loves attention, obviously I mean He's he's he's looking for it and probably eating it up because a lot of these guys a lot of these King James only guys. Figure oh, that's persecution means I must be doing God's will you know, that's what the street preachers are into too.

But anyways, here's um, here's the the local channel 10.

Interview with with pastor president and praise for his death. Listen to what he said when we talked to him today.

Yeah, I hope that God Strikes Barack Obama with brain cancer so he can die like Ted Kennedy, you know.

And I hope it happens today. More strong words from Pastor Steve Anderson about President Barack Obama. He continues to encourage his parishioners to pray for the president's death.

But he says he doesn't condone killing. I will not take the law into my own hands. I will not take up any arms. It's a spiritual battle. It's a spiritual warfare this morning about 30 parishioners at the faithful word Baptist Church.

Were met by a few protesters. A pastor a man of the cloth doesn't condone Assassinating people and that's the reason. He's not a pastor. He's a pastor. Some of them tried to go into the church. They were denied.

I find it incomprehensible that someone can say they believe in the message of Jesus and And preach hate. Tempe police patrolled the area to make sure things didn't get out of hand. Many parishioners walked into the church carrying guns on their hips.

One of them Christopher Broughton got national attention for bringing an AR -15 to a rally outside the Phoenix Convention Center. Where the president was speaking, would you be interested in clarifying that at all.

I? Mean do you think the sermon is what prompted you to bring the gun in. Hi there? He didn't want to talk about whether the pastor's sermon.

Motivated him to bring a rifle to the rally if anything. I was talking him down not riling him up.

Pastor Anderson says his hatred of Obama and former President Bush.

Stems from his views on abortion and the Iraq War. Look up the word hate. Look up the word abhor. Look up the word loathe. And you'll see that there are a lot of people who God hates and who we should hate.

But see I didn't write that that's in the Bible the pastor says since he posted his sermon about the president on YouTube.

He and his family have received death threats. If people want to wish death on me. I don't have a problem with that but when people say I'm coming and Killing you and your family within the next 36 hours.

That's different than them hoping or wishing something in their mind.

And we did talk to the White House today. They have no comment.

Yeah, and I have to admit mr. Hayworth did point something out that's that I I Haven't had time recently to be a big news Person it only happened that I was running an errand yesterday, so I had the radio on the cars.

That's why I heard this stuff. I I had heard some of the stuff that have been going on. The guy showed up at the rally with the r -15 slung on his back is from this guy's church. That was first thing, but then it was pointed out that the media zoomed in on stuff.

So you couldn't tell he's african-american. So a bunch of the Eastern Press outlets were doing racism stuff and everything else. But he's an african-american and they didn't even mention that nothing was even talked about that.

So anyway there's there's some of Excuse me Steven Anderson's stuff and and People should not be surprised by this King James only us are this way. Haven't you ever listened to Peter Ruckman. Haven't you ever listened to Gail Ripplinger?

Haven't you listened to I mean when when I put videos up of Sam Gipp calling me a liar and all this stuff. You know I sort of chuckle about because I'm used to this. This is this is the mindset of the independent fundamentalist Baptist King James only it's not the independent fundamentalist Baptist.

I feel sorry for independent fundamentalist Baptists. Who are not King James only us who do not have this worldview that allows you to? Just you know it's it's us against everybody else. There's you know.

There there's nobody outside of our tiny tiny little group that that's even saved. You know that kind of a mindset allows you to to say this kind of stuff now. The problem is that when when we try to say serious things for example if I were to say I believe very firmly that people who promote godlessness in a position of authority in a society will answer to God for that.

There will be a day when they stand before God and not to be able to say I Was just politics man. You know I mean I you know that's the the issues of our society our moral issues and God is concerned about all those things and I know in I listened to the first I started listening to seem before the big the big news broke on.

I'd started listening to the beginning of this sermon. I didn't get to the part about Barack Obama near that or it wasn't the beginning of the sermon. I don't know which one it was but you know he went to passages in the Psalter Psalm 5 5 things like that where God talks about hating the wicked and There's everything right to be said about people who think that the Bible preaches this idea that Jesus that God is this.

You know this grandfather in the sky. There's no wrath of God. You know but when you when you are imbalanced as any King James only is is by definition in that sense. When you're imbalanced like this and you use this kind of rhetoric and You have all these other problems in your theology as well the result is well what we're seeing and anybody who would say that that the the policies that are promoting abortion and things like that and then the Degradation of our society and all the rest that stuff you're all we're all being whitewashed in the same way.

By this kind of silliness because they're these people just don't think through what they're saying. And in fact continue with their various perspectives no matter what the facts are that certainly has been our experience with King James only advocates all along so.

That part did not get mentioned as I was listening to all the calls calling in. No one even picked up on that. They didn't even make the connection. There was a independent fundamentalist Baptist who called in hey You know we're different than that you know.

The.

Fact is we are commanded to pray for our leaders that does not mean that we pray for their success. That does not mean that we pray that their godless anti biblical anti godly programs and policies succeed, but we are to pray for them first and foremost that they would be converted and Yes, we do pray that God would protect innocent children from From death as a result of these policies and and would protect them the nation from the kind of debauchery.

That is a part of the worldview of so many people who are in power today. But to do what these people are doing and to lose their their balance completely and to Not recognize That God's wrath is over every sinner Who is not in Jesus Christ every single one including the politicians that you like the best but who refuse to bow the knee to Christ God's wrath is just as much abiding over them and Unfortunately, it's that lack of balance that ends up causing a lot of people a lot of problems, so he is a local and I have a feeling we're gonna be hearing more in the future because I know his trial stuffs could be coming up pretty soon and Huh, it's gonna be.

It's gonna be interesting, but it's a small group. I mean, it's a very small little King James only Church. What's that? Well, you know it must be Fred Phelps. I saw the connection there. There is a connection there.

No question about it, but there are some differences as well. And but he definitely wants the he wants all the attention he can get and he's definitely definitely getting it. So anyway got other things queued up here.

Questions of Prayer, Judgment, and Balance

We want to talk a little bit, so William Lane Craig today. But we'll take our one phone caller. We have right now and talk with the George. Hi George. How are you?

Hey, how you doing? Dr. White doing all right? Had a quick question for you. Maybe you can help me. Is there any resources you could point me to. That show that Sunday is the new day of worship under the new covenant.

Well, yeah, there's a couple of things. The screen here says you're dealing with some seventh-day Adventist.

I have a friend who's a seventh-day Adventist that I went to the Westminster Confession of Faith. And I I was really kind of disappointed with how they treated the thing. I didn't feel like it was doing a good enough job as far as convincing him well some of the wealth.

Whether something is convincing to someone or not is not a good judge as to whether it is a good resource. Because there are people who cannot be convinced by The best argumentation on the planet, so that's that wasn't meant to be an argumentation and there are There are multiple ways in which The argument can can proceed and from a historical and biblical perspective.

I think that the best argumentation for the identification of the Christian day of worship as the Lord's Day as Sunday as the first day of the week. Notice I there's a difference between arguing for a change of Sabbath day and an argument for Sunday being the Lord's Day.

Korea. K. Hey, Mara the Lord's Day. Those are two different things. And I think if you're dealing with a seventh-day Adventist you're jumping the gun to try to go for the second argument before you go for the first argument, which is establishment of the fact that the Christians worship together as a group on the Lord's Day and I don't know if the book's still in print.

Maybe somebody can Google it real fast or do something else, but The only book that I'm familiar with on that particular subject is called from Sabbath to Lord's Day. Which if I recall correctly was edited by DA Carson somewhere back in the late 70s or early 80s one of the two maybe someone can pull up a link for me real quick on that, but.

That.

Had in my opinion the best articles on the subject of the establishment, especially from Revelation chapter 1 as I recall The establishment of the first day of the week as the Kodiak a him era the day of the Lord upon which the the the worship was taking place, so that would be a Resource that would be excellent for you from a number of different directions.

Especially because they were scholarly articles, which means they have bibliographies as well. So you're gonna get a wide variety of material from that. You've taken my call. I appreciate your call. Thanks a lot.

Yes.

Interesting subject often the rather divisive subject but Very important subject as well. I suppose I should have just clicked on a link here and said from Sabbath To Lord's Day, there it is right there and let's see if it's still available.

And it is it has a new cover and I was right edited by DA Carson and whoa 3423. I'm glad I got that back in the Late 90s. I think I got it in the early 1980s now come to think of it. And it didn't cost $34 .23.

Wow. That's a why is that so much even if it's especially so well. 440. Oh whip-and-sock publishers, that's why yeah, they're not as big. That's that's why so anyways 444 pages there and that would be that'd be very useful.

And so as I said, I want to get into some discussion of William Lane Craig today. I was gonna do this last week, but didn't get around to it. I was listening to some more of William Lane Craig's Sunday school lessons.

I didn't cover this. Did I mr. Pierce? You're supposed to since I'm since I'm. You know just back from Australia and you know, I didn't I didn't play any William Lane Craig on Thursday today. We got we got a lot of phone calls.

All right, cuz I had it queued up. Sometimes when I think through something and I get it all queued up then I you know days later I go. Well, did I play it or did I not?

This was this is what you get for being upside down for that long when you mean the blood rushing to the head.

Yeah, you stand back up that explains a lot of my Australian friends. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks. They're gonna they're gonna get me for that but Actually gravity doesn't work that way in case you're wondering but it's okay.

It and by the way, the the water does not go down the drain the opposite direction in Australia.

No.

Storms do rotate the other direction do the Coriolis effect. But the drains too small for the Coriolis effect to have any impact now storms do twist the other direction but there's a reason for it, but it was it was a common myth common myth, but it doesn't work that way and Food portions still are very small there, but that has nothing to do with Coriolis effect.

Anyway, all right, so William Lane Craig I Was listening to his Sunday school lessons and there was this big gap between the two I was listening to even though they were numbered Consecutively, so I don't know if something didn't get recorded.

I don't know if somebody else filled in I don't know if he was traveling. I don't know but the fact the matter is that There's something missing here. Because in the first one I listened to it's on justification okay, the second one is on eternal security says as we mentioned last week the reformed view of this subject and I didn't get that.

It's not there. I can't find it if someone can direct me to it. That'd be great. But we're missing some stuff now. I listen to the stuff on justification. It's interesting because I Think I know which church this is in the Atlanta area in Georgia somewhere.

And they have quite an interesting group attending. Because he regularly has a Calvinist in the room and he regularly has a Catholic in the room because you you get both both perspectives in the questions, which is interesting and So I know that he knows they're there.

So I I give dr. Craig kudos for trying to be accurate. You know, he does he doesn't do a lot of things that you would hear a George Bryson do or you know everybody in the opening of the Radio Free Geneva stuff.

He doesn't do any of that thankfully. But he's still a dyed-in-the-wool Arminian and how does. How does he teach at Biola and yet his Churches in Georgia, maybe I'm wrong about that. Maybe the church is in California.

How does that work? I don't know. I thought it was in Georgia. I could be wrong. Anyway, I was listening to his discussion on the subject. Oh, look at the UBS man. Oh, look at that. Isn't that beautiful?

Yes UPS man arriveth and I feel like praying playing Christmas music. Imagine what are two of those things are for me? Anyhow, I was listening to talk about justification. What what? Is there something I'm missing here he's in Atlanta he flies man, he flies a lot.

Could I borrow some frequent flyer miles my goodness? That would be a lot of Those both for me there Barry. They're both for me. All right, that's great. That's super only ones for me. You got the big one, oh great fine No, no, no, you're not gonna open it.

No, you need to put that on my desk now. Leave it alone son. But scares me anyway. Little distracted here. He's talking about justification. Okay. I liked most of what he had to say. But It's the same thing.

It's the same problem. I have. When I listen to him debating on the existence of God the greater probability. You know the majority of the information points the greater probability of the existence of a God not God exists the Christian God exists, but you know, it's really probable here and.

Well, let me just play this section for you here. He's he's gone through. Some stuff on justification and justification by faith and any just listen listen listen for yourself.

Justification by Faith and the Limits of “More Biblical”

So, I hope I've represented it fairly. And Myself for my part. I Think that the Protestant view is more biblical, I it seems to me that that the The notion of justification particularly as a process Is and and that we increase in justification doesn't seem to me to be In line with Paul's teaching on this now.

Certainly I do think that we do grow in our righteousness as we walk with Christ. But I wouldn't see that as an increase in Justification before him which I think is achieved by Christ.

So in my view, you know, it's more biblical you know, it's but you know, but it's a spectrum, you know, and This really flows out of what we heard before when when you start with a modified view of the Council of Trent on what Consistent grounds.

Can you then? Vary and go another direction when it comes to this subject. Because we heard if you weren't listening then we we listened to William Lane Craig presenting the contrast between Especially the subject of election and man's will and things like that.

He presents the reform view presents the view of the Council of Trent and sort of and. And you know if you're a Catholic this must really grate on you. But but sort of takes his own view of the Council of Trent.

I like what Trent says up to this point. But I'd like to modify this and modify that now a good faithful consistent Roman Catholic goes. Who do you think you are to do that? Especially since the Council of Trent is coming up with his formulations not from sola scriptura.

Not from the position that I would think. That William Lane Craig would would affirm. So once you've got the wrong foundation, then you get to justification by faith. He says, oh, yes, you know. It's it's by faith alone.

And it's it's not of works and it's it's a Forensic declaration by God that that seems to be more in line With the biblical view not this is the biblical view. It's just more in line with that. It's it's more biblical.

You know, the Catholic position is just a little bit less biblical. So it's a spectrum, you know, and That doesn't exactly provide you much of a real strong foundation for for providing you know people with a with a basis for Evangelizing Roman Catholics and calling them to to leave the Roman Catholic perspective now.

Then like I said the very next one I downloaded it looked like the only two I hadn't listened to before. The very next one jumps one month and there was a bunch of stuff missing. I don't know what happened maybe somebody can tell me but here's.

Here's how the discussion of The Arminian view of perseverance. He mentions the rope reform view and then we jump to this the Arminian perspective is quite different.

Corporate Election and the Security of the Elect

And that is what we turn to today on the Arminian perspective. Though the elect as a corporate body are secure and certainly will go to heaven the sick the Individual salvation is contingent and Can be lost.

So there is a corporate body remember which on the Arminian view is is predestined to justification and glorification. All the rest that Corporate group will make it. But whether or not you're part of that corporate group as an individual is contingent upon your faith.

It is it is the The person who believes in Christ who will be saved. So for example.

I have now I want people to hear this because I I mentioned this Wednesday evening if you've been following the YouTube videos Wednesday evening when I spoke at PR BC. I mentioned it again Sunday evening in in the sermon and.

A number of folks have commented on how much this helped them. Think about what William Lane Craig is saying here from the Arminian perspective, and he later on admits. This is his perspective. He's got quote from Robert Shank and all the rest that stuff, so this is his perspective.

He's he's doing the well. This is this view. This is this view. I'll sort of let you figure out mine well. We know what his view is from the Arminian perspective. The elect as a group are Secure. Think about that for just a moment.

The elect are secure but Your Participation in the elect is based upon your continued faithfulness. So what does it mean to say? That the elect are Secure if the individuals that make up the elect are not secure because it is up to their continued faithfulness.

And remember We're you have to go back to the foundations. And Arminian is a synergist. God does his part. Man does his part. Saving faith is not a divine gift. It's not the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will help you.

But the Holy Spirit tries to help everybody with prevenient grace.

The.

Final decider is up to you. No monergism. No saving faith that it's the work of the gift of the work of the Spirit of God. You don't have that. So if your participation in the elect is based upon your continued faithfulness, and that's not something It's guaranteed then how can you talk about the perseverance of the elect?

Since the elect Isn't a specific group. It's a nameless faceless group and your participation is based upon your faithfulness. So isn't this double double speak isn't this? What what kind of meaning can that have.

We'll explore that a little bit more after we take our break. We'll be right back.

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Thank you.

And welcome back to the dividing line. We are listening to William Lane Craig with those thoughts in mind. Listen again to this introduction. Keep in mind if you have the elect as an Unidentified group we fill in the identities not God.

Then listen to this again and ask how the elect can be secure if the individuals in the elect are not.

Perspective is quite different. And that is what we turn to today on the Armenian perspective. Though the elect as a corporate body are secure and certainly will go to heaven.

The.

Sick. The Individual salvation is contingent and can be lost. So there is a corporate body remember which on the Armenian view is is predestined to Justification and glorification. All the rest that corporate group will make it.

But whether or not you're part of that corporate group as an individual is contingent upon your faith. It is it is the.

The person who believes in Christ who will be saved so for example, so there's the idea the the elect. The elect is secure. God will save you as long as you are a part of this group now again I just have to ask the question How does this differ in its final?

Outcome in how it looks from Roman Catholicism because Rome promises Eternal life to those who do what? Who utilize the sacraments to be able to obtain the grace to obtain eternal life? So it's your faithfulness the sacraments are there you just have to Do what you need to do?

It's up to you. God's made available and you just have to do what you need to do. That's Rome this is why when Arminianism began to spread in the beginning of the 17th century. That many of the Reformed said this is simply a popeless return to Roman Catholicism.

Because at its heart its synergism is The same thing and this is what over the years. I remember a situation. I don't know how long ago it was now at least 10 years. Where I went out got invited to a church locally to go speak to a men's group.

They had a great time. I forget what I was talking about I believe I was talking about I Think I think may have been Mormonism. It may have been reliability to scripture. I I don't remember the subject now.

But I wasn't asked, you know, I wasn't given some doctrinal test to take before I came and spoke at this place. It was just a men's group. They asked me to talk about something that you know, fine. Great.

I did. Well, they decided they wanted to go to Salt Lake with us and That's when the issue of what we'd be distributing came up and they wanted to bring their own tracks. Because they don't believe in Sovereign grace and election so they wanted to pass out Arminian tracks but be with us as we were passing out Reformed tracks and Had to say no say no that I mean if you want to go to Salt Lake And you know, there's there's other people to show up up there, you know fine, but if we're going up as a group we we can't be in disagreement over something as fundamental as this and That has closed a lot of doors Over the years, but it's absolutely necessary the Mormons see the difference.

They recognize it. I remember the first times I was challenged on this was in a Mormon missionary. Put his finger right on the inconsistency of my not yet fully reformed views. They see it. And it comes out rather rather clearly in these situations.

Let's go ahead and take a phone call. That's on the same topic as we continue on. Let's talk with Patrick. Hi Patrick.