Steven Anderson Gets Famous, Some Calls, and More William Lane Craig

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed
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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white Hey, good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning still sound a little bass don't
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I a little Barry whitish, but That's that's okay feel. All right, just That that stuff is just won't go away it's kicked in the old asthma and so we're fighting that off But still still gotten about 46 miles in so far this week.
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So we're still We're still doing. All right No, no, I that was completely fortuitous.
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Mr. Latin Anyways, the studio audience is again misbehaving as always but that's okay.
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We can we can live with that speaking of misbehavior. I was listening to the local drive time talk show host on our local
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Talk station there used to be two of them. The other one went off to FM land and nobody found it again
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It just died. It was just I think there's about four old people in Sun City. Listen that station down But the other one the big one the one that I was on used to be on all the time
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I mean for a while there I was just I mean I almost lived down there but Then they took my card out of the
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Rolodex I think and that was that was it but anyway the fellow who's the afternoon guy is former congressman
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J .D. Hayworth and I remember seeing J .D. Hayworth of North Phoenix Baptist Church. I'm not sure if that's where he still goes.
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That was her still goes I think it is. Yeah, okay So and isn't that where McCain had his town hall last weekend a weekend before last whenever it was
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I noticed from the pictures. I said that that looks somewhat familiar been there long a long time ago back from 1978 to 1989 actually is the the time frame that I was there anyway
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And J .D. Hayworth was talking about a local pastor who's become a well, let's just say that this fellow likes attention and I've known about this fellow for a long time.
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The first time I heard about Steven Anderson was because he is a
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King James only advocate and I'm looking at the doctrinal statement of the faithful word
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Baptist Church over in Tempe and You always know when the
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The thing starts the statement of faith starts with these words, you know, what's coming later
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We believe that the in bold, please notice it's in bold We believe that the
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King James Bible is the Word of God without error, that's the first statement On the doctrinal statement of the faithful word
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Baptist Church. They're King James only folks and I Don't know what it is about King James only isn't it makes people just a little bit on the weird side well, actually sometimes way over on the weird side when you look at people like Gil Ripplinger and Peter Ruckman, you know, we can start going down a long road here of some really interesting folks, but They like to use bold and underline in italics and then bold italics and Underline italics and when you're they're really really upset about something bold italics underline that's
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How is it that adopting the the King James only position makes you
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Do that I I've not really figured it out. But anyway It's a pretty short doctrinal statement, but I I did notice a little bit farther down the eye sort of catches these things
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There there really isn't Interestingly enough. There's no affirmation of the Trinity here
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It does say we believe Jesus is God and there's Jesus Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost the Virgin Mary, but there's nothing
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There's nothing defining The doctrine of the Trinity here I'm just gonna read.
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This is really interesting some of these things here We believe in the eternal security believer one saved all was saved.
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That's a ticket punch going to heaven We believe then say we'll spend eternity and torment in a literal hell We believe the
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Jesus is God the Jesus Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost, but the Virgin Mary We believe only in the local church and not in a universal church
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What does that mean? There's no universal church Or is there only one local church,
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I don't know I haven't figured that one out then the next one we reject the teaching of Calvinism and Then check this out and believe that God wants everyone to be saved now.
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Remember this is the same fellow Yes, I am talking about the fellow who has made national news by having preached the sermon week ago
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Sunday night Specifically stating that he hates
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Barack Obama and That he wants Barack Obama to die and That he wants
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Barack Obama now. He didn't say this in his sermon But he was interviewed by our the local one of the local
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TV stations And I have that clip and I'm gonna play that clip for you here.
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We'll let you we'll let you hear What what what kind of local news our local
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King James only and that this guy by the way? He's the one who did the sermon on The text from Isaiah in the
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King James Version About relieving oneself against the wall, but he used the
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King James language And I mean that that sermon went all over the internet
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I mean I was I don't know how many copies that one I was sent and then
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Sometime I don't know about six months or so ago He refused to get out of his car at a stop along the
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California Arizona border And so the cops broke into his car and tased him and So there's this video of him getting tased and all the rest of stuff and all the lawsuits and all the rest of stuff that He's doing
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So he just loves attention obviously I mean He's he's he's looking for it and probably eating it up because a lot of these guys a lot of these
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King James only guys Figure oh that's persecution means I must be doing God's will you know that's what the street preachers are into too
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But anyways here's some here's the the local channel 10 Interview with with pastor president and praise for his death listen to what he said when we talked to him today
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Yeah, I hope that God Strikes Barack Obama with brain cancer so he can die like Ted Kennedy You know and I hope it happens today more strong words from pastor
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Steve Anderson about President Barack Obama He continues to encourage his parishioners to pray for the president's death
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But he says he doesn't condone killing I will not take the law into my own hands.
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I will not take up any arms. It's a spiritual battle It's a spiritual warfare this morning about 30 parishioners at the faithful word
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Baptist Church Were met by a few protesters a pastor a man of the cloth doesn't condone
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Assassinating people and that's the reason he's not a pastor. He's a pastor some of them tried to go into the church
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They were denied. I find it incomprehensible that someone can say they believe in the message of Jesus and And preach hate
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Tempe police patrolled the area to make sure things didn't get out of hand Many parishioners walked into the church carrying guns on their hips
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One of them Christopher Broughton got national attention for bringing an ar -15 to a rally outside the
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Phoenix Convention Center Where the president was speaking would you be interested in clarifying that at all
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I? Mean do you think this sermon is what prompted you to bring the gun in hi there?
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He didn't want to talk about whether the pastor's sermon Motivated him to bring a rifle to the rally if anything
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I was talking him down not riling him up pastor Anderson says his hatred of Obama and former
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President Bush Stems from his views on abortion and the Iraq war look up the word hate look up the word abhor look up the word loathe
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And you'll see that there are a lot of people who God hates and who we should hate But see I didn't write that that's in the
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Bible the pastor says since he posted his sermon about the president on YouTube He and his family have received death threats if people want to wish death on me.
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I don't have a problem with that but when people say I'm coming and Killing you and your family within the next 36 hours.
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That's different than them hoping or wishing something in their mind And we did talk to the
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White House today. They have no comment Yeah, I'm sure Yeah, and I have to admit mr.
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Hayworth did point something out. That's that I I Haven't had time recently to be a big news
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Person it only happened that I was running an errand yesterday, so I had the radio on the car So that's why I heard this stuff.
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I had I had heard some of the stuff that have been going on The guy showed up at the rally with the r -15 song on his back is from this guy's church
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That was first thing, but then it was pointed out that the media zoomed in on stuff
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So you couldn't tell he's african -american So a bunch of the Eastern Press outlets were doing racism stuff and everything else
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But he's an african -american, and they didn't even mention that nothing was even talked about that so anyway there's there's some of Excuse me
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Steven Anderson's stuff and and People should not be surprised by this
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King James only us are this way haven't you ever listened to Peter Ruckman haven't you ever listened to Gail Ripplinger?
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Haven't you listened to I mean when when I put videos up of Sam Gipp calling me a liar and all this stuff
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You know I sort of chuckle about cuz I'm used to this This is this is the mindset of the independent fundamentalist
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Baptist King James only It's not the independent fundamentalist Baptist. I feel sorry for independent fundamentalist
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Baptists Who are not King James only us who do not have this worldview that allows you to Just you know it's it's us against everybody else.
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There's you know There there's nobody outside of our tiny tiny little group that that's even saved
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You know that kind of a mindset Allows you to to say this kind of stuff now the problem is that When when we try to say serious things for example if I were to say
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I believe very firmly that people who promote Godlessness in a position of authority in a society will answer to God for that There will be a day when they stand before God and not to be able to say
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I was just politics man You know I mean You know that's the the issues of our society are moral issues and God is concerned about all those things and I know in I listened to the first I started listening to see before the big the big news broke on I'd started listening to The beginning of this sermon
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I didn't get to the part about Barack Obama near that or it wasn't the beginning of the sermon I don't know which one it was but you know he went to passages in the
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Psalter Psalm 5 5 things like that where God talks about hating the wicked and There's everything right to be said about people who think that the
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Bible preaches this idea that Jesus the God is this You know this grandfather in the sky there's no wrath of God You know but when you when you are imbalanced as any
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King James only is is by definition in that sense When you're imbalanced like this and you use this kind of rhetoric and You have all these other problems in your theology as well the result is well what we're seeing and anybody who would say that That the the policies that are promoting abortion and things like that and the
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Degradation of our society and all the rest that stuff you're all we're all being whitewashed in the same way
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By this kind of silliness because they're these people just don't think through what they're saying And in fact continue with their various perspectives no matter what the facts are that certainly has been our experience with King James only advocates all along so That part did not get mentioned as I was listening to all the calls calling in No one even picked up on that.
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They didn't even make the connection There was a independent fundamentalist Baptist that called in hey, you know we're different than that you know
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The fact is we are commanded to pray for our leaders that does not mean that we pray for their success
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That does not mean that we pray that they're godless anti biblical anti Godly programs and policies succeed, but we are to pray for them first and foremost that they would be converted and Yes, we do pray that God would protect innocent children from from death as a result of these policies and and would protect the nation from the kind of debauchery that is a part of the worldview of So many people who are in power today
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But to do what these people are doing and to lose their their balance completely and to Not recognize
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That God's wrath is over every sinner who is not in Jesus Christ every single one including the politicians that you like the best, but who refuse to bow the knee to Christ God's wrath is just as much abiding over them and Unfortunately, it's that lack of balance that ends up causing a lot of people a lot of problems, so he is a local and I have a feeling we're gonna be hearing more in the future because I know his trial stuffs could be coming up pretty soon and It's gonna be
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It's gonna be interesting, but it's a small group. I mean it's a very small little King James only Church What's that?
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Yeah, well, you know it must be Fred Phelps, I saw the connection there There is a connection there.
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No question about it, but there are some differences as well And but he definitely wants the he wants all the attention you can get and he's definitely definitely getting it
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So anyway got other things queued up here want to talk a little bit, so William Lane Craig today But we'll take our one phone caller.
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We have right now and talk with the George. Hi George. How are you? Doing all right For you, maybe you can help me.
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Is there any resources you could point me to? That show that Sunday is the new day of worship under the new covenant
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Well, yeah, there's a couple of things The screen here says you're dealing with some seventh -day
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Adventists I have a friend who's a seventh -day Adventist that I went to the Westminster Confession of Faith And I I was really kind of disappointed with how they treated the thing
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I didn't feel like it was doing a good enough job as far as convincing him well some of the well Whether something is convincing to someone or not is not a good judge as to whether it is a good resource
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Because there are people who cannot be convinced by the best argumentation on the planet, so That's that wasn't meant to be an argumentation and there are
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There are multiple ways in which The argument can can proceed and from a historical and biblical perspective.
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I think that the best argumentation For the identification of the
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Christian Day of Worship as the Lord's Day as Sunday as the first day of the week notice
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I there's a difference between arguing for a change of Sabbath day and an argument for Sunday being the
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Lord's Day Korea K. Hey Mara the Lord's Day Those are two different things and I think if you're dealing with a seventh -day
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Adventist You're jumping the gun to try to go for the second argument before you go for the first argument which is establishment of the fact that the
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Christians worship together as a group on the Lord's Day and I don't know if the book's still in print.
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Maybe somebody can google it real fast or do something else, but The only book that I'm familiar with on that particular subject is called from Sabbath to Lord's Day Which if I recall correctly
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Was edited by DA Carson somewhere back in the late 70s or early 80s one of the two maybe someone can pull up a link for me real quick on that, but That had in my opinion the best articles on the subject of the establishment especially from Revelation chapter 1 as I recall
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The establishment of the first day of the week as the Korea K. Him era the day of the Lord upon which the the the worship was taking place, so that would be a
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Resource that would be excellent for you from a number of different directions Especially because they were scholarly articles, which means they have bibliographies as well
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So you're gonna get a wide variety of material from that Doctor what I appreciate you taking my call.
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I appreciate your call. Thanks a lot a blessing Yes Interesting subjects often a rather divisive subject but Very important subject as well,
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I suppose I should have just clicked on a link here and said from To learn say there it is right there and let's see if it's still available
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And it is it has a new cover, and I was right edited by DA Carson and whoa 3423
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I'm glad I got that back in the late 90s. I think I got it in the early 1980s now come to think of it
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And it didn't cost thirty four dollars and twenty three cents Wow, that's a why is that so much even if it's especially well
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It's 440 Oh whip -and -sock publishers. That's why yeah, they're they're not as big. That's that's why so anyways 444 pages there and that would be that'd be very useful
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And so as I said, I want to get into some discussion of William Lane Craig today I was gonna do this last week, but didn't get around to it.
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I was listening to some more of William Lane Craig's Sunday school lessons.
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I didn't cover this did I mr. Pierce you're supposed to since I'm since I'm You know just back from Australia, and you know
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I didn't I didn't play any William Lane Craig on Thursday today We got we got a lot of phone calls all right because I had it queued up Sometimes when
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I think through something and I get it all queued up, then I you know days later I go well did I play it or did
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I not this was this is what you get for being upside down for that long Yeah, you stand back up explains a lot of my
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Australian friends, yeah, okay, all right, thanks They're gonna. They're gonna get me for that, but Actually gravity doesn't work that way in case you're wondering, but it's okay
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It and by the way the the water does not go down the drain the opposite direction in Australia No storms do rotate the other direction do the
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Coriolis effect But the drains too small for the Coriolis effect to have any impact now storms do twist the other direction
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But there's a reason for it, but it was it was a common myth common myth, but it doesn't work that way and Food portions still are very small there, but that has nothing to do with the
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Coriolis effect Anyway all right so William Lane Craig I Was listening to his
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Sunday school lessons, and there was this big gap between the two I was listening to even though they were numbered consecutively, so I don't know if something didn't get recorded
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I don't know if somebody else filled in I don't know if he was traveling. I don't know but the fact the matter is that There's something missing here
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Because in the first one I listened to it's on justification Okay, the second one is on eternal security
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He says as we mentioned last week the reformed view of this subject, and I didn't get that it's not there
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I can't find it if someone can direct me to it. That'd be great But we're missing some stuff now listen to the stuff on justification, it's interesting because I Think I know which church.
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This is in the Atlanta area in Georgia somewhere And they have quite an interesting group attending
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Because he regularly has a Calvinist in the room and he regularly has a Catholic in the room because you you get both both perspectives in the questions, which is interesting and So I know that he knows they're there
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So I I give Dr.. Craig kudos for trying to be accurate you know he does he doesn't do a lot of things that you would hear a
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George Bryson do or you know everybody in the opening of the
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Radio Free Geneva stuff He doesn't do any of that thankfully
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But he's still a died -in -the -wool Arminian and how does
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I just thought how does he teach at Biola and yet his Churches in Georgia, maybe
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I'm wrong about that. Maybe the church is in California How does that work? I don't know. I thought it was in Georgia.
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I could be wrong Anyway, I was listening to his discussion on the subject.
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Oh look at the UBS man. Oh look at that isn't that beautiful Yes UPS man arriveth, and I feel like playing
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Christmas music I Imagine one or two of those things are for me anyhow.
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I was listening to talk about justification what what? Is there something
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I'm missing here, he's in Atlanta he flies man. He flies a lot could I borrow some frequent flyer miles my goodness that would be a lot of Those both for me there very they're both for me.
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All right, that's great. That's super only ones for me You got the big one.
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Oh great fine No, no, no, you're not gonna open it. No you need to put that on my desk now leave it alone son
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Boy, that scares me anyway Little distracted here. He's talking about justification and okay.
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I liked most what he had to say But It's the same thing it's the same problem
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I have When I listen to him debating on the existence of God the greater Probability, you know the majority of the information points the greater probability of the existence of a
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God not God exists the Christian God exists, but you know it's really probable here and Well, let me just play this section for you here.
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He's he's gone through Some stuff on justification and justification by faith and any just listen listen listen for yourself, so I hope
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I've represented it fairly and Myself for my part.
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I Think that the Protestant view is more Biblical I it seems to me that that the the notion of justification particularly as a process
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Is and and that we increase in justification doesn't seem to me to be In line with Paul's teaching on this now certainly
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I do think that we do grow in our righteousness as we walk with Christ, but I wouldn't see that as an increase in Justification before him which
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I think is achieved by Christ so in my view You know it's more biblical
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You know it's but you know, but it's a spectrum you know and This really flows out of what we heard before when when you start with a modified view of the
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Council of Trent on what Consistent grounds can you then? Vary and go another direction when it comes to this subject
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Because we heard if you weren't listening then we we listened to William Lane Craig presenting a contrast between Especially the subject of election and man's will and things like that He presents the reform view presents the view of the
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Council of Trent and sort of and And you know if you're a Catholic this must really grate on you
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But but it sort of takes his own view of the Council of Trent I like what Trent says up to this point
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But I'd like to modify this and modify that now a good faithful consistent Roman Catholic goes
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Who do you think you are to do that? Especially since the Council of Trent is coming up with his formulations not from sola scriptura
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Not from the position that I would think That William Lane Craig would would affirm
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So once you've got the wrong foundation, then you get to justification by faith. He says oh, yes, you know it's it's by faith alone, and it's it's not of works, and it's it's a
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Forensic declaration by God that that seems to be more in line With the biblical view not this is the biblical view.
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It's just more in line with that. It's it's more biblical You know the Catholic position is just a little bit less biblical, so it's a spectrum.
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You know and That doesn't exactly provide you much of a real strong foundation for for providing
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You know people with a with a basis for Evangelizing Roman Catholics and calling them to to leave the
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Roman Catholic perspective now Then like I said the very next one.
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I downloaded it looked like the only two I hadn't listened to before the very next one jumps one month and There was a bunch of stuff missing.
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I don't know what happened. Maybe somebody can tell me but here's Here's how the discussion of the
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Arminian view of Perseverance he mentions the rope reform view and then we jump to this the
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Arminian perspective is quite different and That is what we turn to today on the
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Arminian perspective Though the elect as a corporate body are secure and certainly will go to heaven the
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Sick the Individual salvation is contingent and can be lost so there is a a corporate body remember which on the
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Arminian view is is predestined to Justification and glorification all the rest that corporate group will make it
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But whether or not you're part of that corporate group as an individual is contingent upon your faith it is it is the
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The person who believes in Christ who will be saved so for example I have now
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I want people to hear this because I I mentioned this Wednesday evening if you've been following the
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YouTube videos Wednesday evening when I spoke at PR BC I Mentioned it again
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Sunday evening in in the sermon and a number of folks have commented on how much this helped them
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Think about what William Lane Craig is saying here from the Arminian perspective, and he later on admits. This is his perspective
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He's got quote from Robert Shank and all the rest that stuff so this is his perspective He's he's doing the well. This is this view.
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This is this view. I'll sort of let you figure out mine well We know what his view is from the
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Arminian perspective the elect as a group are
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Secure think about that for just a moment The elect are secure but Your Participation in the elect is based upon your continued faithfulness
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So what does it mean to say? that the elect are
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Secure if the individuals that make up the elect are not secure because it is up to their continued faithfulness and remember
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We're you have to go back to the foundations And Arminian is a synergist
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God does his part man does his part Saving faith is not a divine gift.
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It's not the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will help you But the
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Holy Spirit tries to help everybody with prevenient grace The Final decider is up to you.
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No monergism No saving faith that it's the work of the gift of the work of the Spirit of God.
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You don't have that So if your participation in the elect is based upon your continued faithfulness, and that's not something
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It's guaranteed then how can you talk about the perseverance of the elect?
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Since the elect Isn't a specific group. It's an nameless faceless group and your participation is based on your faithfulness
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So isn't this double double speak isn't this? What what kind of meaning can that have we'll explore that a little bit more after we take our break.
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The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the
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Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine In his book the
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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme
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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute
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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith
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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words
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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org
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Hello everyone, this is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you And Welcome back to the dividing line.
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We are listening to William Lane Craig with those thoughts in mind Listen again to this introduction.
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Keep in mind if you have the elect as an Unidentified group we fill in the identities not
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God Then listen to this again and ask how the elect can be secure if the individuals in the elect are not
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The Arminian perspective is quite different and that is what we turn to today on the
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Arminian perspective though the elect as a corporate body are secure and Certainly will go to heaven the sick the
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Individual salvation is contingent and can be lost So there is a corporate body remember which on the
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Arminian view is is predestined to Justification and glorification all the rest that corporate group will make it but whether or not you're part of that corporate group as an individual is contingent upon your faith it is it is the
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The person who believes in Christ who will be saved. So for example, so there's the idea the the elect
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The elect is secure. God will save you as long as you are a part of this group now again
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I just have to ask the question How does this differ in its final?
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Outcome in how it looks from Roman Catholicism because Rome promises
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Eternal life to those who do what? Who utilize the sacraments to be able to obtain the grace to obtain eternal life?
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So it's your faithfulness the sacraments are there you just have to Do what you need to do?
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It's up to you. God's made available and you just have to do what you need to do
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That's Rome. This is why when Arminianism began to spread in the beginning of the 17th century
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That many of the Reformed said this is simply a popeless return to Roman Catholicism because at its heart its synergism is
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The same thing and this is what over the years. I remember a situation. I don't know how long ago it was now at least 10 years
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Where I went out got invited to a church locally to go speak to a men's group
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They had a great time I forget what I was talking about I believe I was talking about I Think I think may have been
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Mormonism. It may have been reliability to scripture. I I don't remember the subject now But I wasn't asked, you know
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I wasn't given some doctrinal test to take before I came and spoke at this place It was just a men's group.
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They asked me to talk about something that you know, fine great. I did. Well, they decided they wanted to go to Salt Lake with us and That's when the issue of what we'd be distributing came up and they wanted to bring their own tracks
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Because they don't believe in Sovereign grace and election so they wanted to pass out Arminian tracks but be with us as we were passing out
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Reformed tracks and Had to say no say no that I mean if you want to go to Salt Lake And you know, there's there's other people to show up up there, you know fine, but if we're going up as a group we we can't be in Disagreement over something as fundamental as this and That has closed a lot of doors
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Over the years, but it's absolutely necessary the Mormons see the difference
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They recognize it. I remember the first times I was challenged on this was in a Mormon missionary Put his finger right on the inconsistency of my not yet fully reformed views.
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They see it And it comes out rather rather clearly in these situations
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Let's go ahead and take a phone call. That's on the same topic as we continue on. Let's talk with Patrick. Hi Patrick Hi, how you doing?
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Dr. White good Yeah, I have a question about this whole corporate election idea that dr.
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William Lane Craig has My question would be how does the
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Arminian walk through Ephesians chapter 1? Where we see everything's after the
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Council of God's will after his purposes how how do they walk through a text like that and Turn that into an idea of corporate election.
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Well, that's exactly where they go to get corporate election They they just verse 4 just as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world and they stop right there and say see this election takes place in Christ, so if you are in Christ Then you are the elect if you are not in Christ you are not the elect and so they they take the sphere of election and subtly turn it into the object of Election see the problem is verse 4 says just as he chose us
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The direct object of choose is us it is not Christ Now what they frequently do is a run over to the section
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Peter that talks about Christ as the as the elect Cornerstone and say well since he is the elect and we are elect in him
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Then there is no personal aspect to Election itself, but that's that's mixing context.
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First of all that they're not talking about the same thing and It's missing the fact that not only is the choosing of us
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Only in Christ doesn't make Christ the one who's the elect one but it then says that we would be holy and blameless before him holy and blamelessness are not things that can be that Can Be a part of a group without it being true of the individuals you can talk about the church being holy and blameless
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But that's because of the sanctifying work the spirit of each of the individual members in the church In pre in love he predestined us to what to adoption his son's adoption is clearly a personal thing
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The the forgiveness of our redemption through his blood forgiveness of our trespasses all these things are clearly
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Individual things that are true of all of the elect because of the fact that they are true of every single
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Individual who is part of the elect, but what they do is they change the object into Christ and That's the realm in which
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God does all these things all the everything that the elect experience is only in Christ So they switch those two things and then that way they can open the door to saying well the elect in Christ receive all these things but It's up to you as to whether you are in Christ or not
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That's that's the argument if you listen to all the major names when you hear them present this you'll hear them
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Quote that text from Ephesians 1 but they will not walk through the entirety of the text and go to the level of the grammar and identify what is a direct object and what isn't a direct object and what's what's in the the lock of instrumental dative cases and so on they don't do that they just Arminianism exists as a philosophical system that flits along on the top of the surface of Scripture It doesn't go deep you want you want illustrations of that I can give you video illustrations of that over and over again.
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Dr. Sanders, but what about John 6 and what Jesus said? Well, it's been a while since I've looked at that text as he's flipping through the pages of his
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Bible But you know, that's that's Arminianism. It is a philosophical system that that exists above The surface of the of the text of Scripture It does not derive from the depths of the text of Scripture.
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That's that's the issue to keep in mind, right? Yeah, and and if we if we go through the text in Ephesians chapter 1 another flip side of trying to make that a corporate idea at least from from from what
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I'm saying here is It seems like what they're saying is whenever it talks about God's purposes and the counsel of his will
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They're just sort of general philosophical ideals, right? They're not specific purposes.
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He doesn't have a specific Will he just has that he has a good hope for mankind. It seems like that's what they're saying
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Well, you are reduced to that in many forms of Arminianism And that's why I've always said that that Arminianism is most consistent expression is open theism where you don't have any will of God at all in essence outside of just a
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Very great. Hope that all things will turn out right in the end But but God doesn't know and and I think that is a consistent result now
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Most Arminians are inconsistent at this point. They want to affirm that God has a purpose They want to affirm that there's there's a purpose for evil and things like that, but because they will not accept
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God's self glorification in the one most important realm and that is in his work of Salvation They really are cut out.
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It's it's cut out from underneath them. They can't really affirm those things and So as a result, you know
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God wants the elect to be glorified and the elect will be glorified as long as they remain faithful and so glorification becomes this this general outcome
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Not the specific outcome of any individual's life because that is eventually up to the individual himself and God's Knowledge of where that person is going to be glorified or not is dependent upon his foreknowledge looking into the future
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It's not something he himself controls now. Remember William Lane Craig's a Molinist and So he has a way around that too
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But it doesn't work as we've mentioned so many times before he could say well Yes, God knows who the elect are because he actuated the particular world where in in in examining all of the counterfactuals
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That existed out there He found that that by by bringing this particular world into existence
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The maximum number of people would be saved So he knows who's gonna be saved not because he elected them
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But because he worked out out of all these myriads of possible worlds that this would be the world
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Where the maximum number of people would be saved That's a world of difference from God's sovereignly electing
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Unregenerate sinners and bringing them to faith in himself. That's that's that's that's a supercomputer
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Looking through all the various possibilities and coming up with the one that gives you the best result, but there's a scary scary
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Result to that too, and that is God could not have saved everyone It's beyond his power.
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It's beyond his capacity when God created God had to send people to hell He could not have saved everyone if he had decided if he even if he desired to do so Hmm right, so the the
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Mullen ism is a Cheap way around some really really major issues, and it just really doesn't work
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Well, can I can I ask you one more question about concerning what you said about? Verse 4 in Ephesians 1 sure so when they when they take that and they make this some sort of general corporate idea
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With with Christ well, okay Then let's look to Christ is what they're saying then
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That God had the same sort of wishful thinking idea when it came to what Christ accomplished
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That maybe maybe Christ succeeds on the cross and maybe he doesn't is that well in the same way there have that's where the open
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Theism goes yes, but the the historical Arminian Remember the historical
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Arminian does not have a substitutionary view of the Atonement anyways. He has the governmental Viewpoint of the
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Atonement where the Atonement is not a legal penal transaction anyways, so a lot of the people you see writing today against substitutionary
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Atonement they're coming from the Arminian perspective because that's just To hold to substitutionary Atonement is to be reformed in the first place and anybody who says
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Jesus died for me But is an Arminian is just ignorant of the history that he's drawing from even though He'll probably tell you well.
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I'm just going with the Bible brother is is probably where he's gonna be going from there So the the whole concept then from the
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Arminian perspective at least historically Would not be that that Christ's death was uncertain but what it accomplishes is different than the salvation of a specific people a and B they would historically make a distinction between the
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God man and sinful men as To their activities in time as well, I would imagine so you can find
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Historical Arminians that are going to hold to a at least semi Orthodox doctrine of God the question is can they be consistent in doing that and It was you know 150 years ago
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We need to have as much rampant skepticism and secularism the very fact of believing the Bible's Word of God kept a lot of these things from sort of exploding into the spectacular panorama of heresy
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That we see all across the Western world today I Got you and how do things like prophecy play into that view does it is
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God? Is God getting lucky there well well for the further for the the
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Arminian that holds to the simple foreknowledge view God can give prophecy because God can see future events because of his eternal nature
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They're all simultaneous to him and they would say and of course the problem then there is from their
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Arminian perspective how can you say God should be glorified for what takes place in time if God is merely passively taking in knowledge of The events in time itself if God is not sovereign over these events why glorify him for for the outcome?
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That doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't think it makes any sense to anybody else But that's the simple foreknowledge view is that that when
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God created? Time was Remains to him since he exists eternally a an ever -present now
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And so he has knowledge of what is future to us because it is a present reality to him Even though he's not the one that determined those events so he can prophesy on the basis of that But the open theist recognizes that that messes everything up as far as free will goes because now if God knows
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What I'm gonna have for lunch today I can't have anything else and so if I'm gonna be really free then
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God can't know what I'm going to do as a free Will creature and that's where open theism comes in or then you throw the
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Molinist spin on all that in there Which again is just a fruitless way of trying to? Protect the free will of man and and as we already discussed that so there you go all right well.
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Thank you very much doc I I certainly appreciate all right. Thanks for calling Patrick. Thank you all right God bless all right, so here's
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If you if you want to see the centrality of your faith here's here's synergism and And how it works a quote from Robert Shank so here what
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Paul says is that? If you are grafted into Christ it is through your faith that you stand firm
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But if you fall away if you Go into unbelief if you commit apostasy you will be broken off And will fall then under the severe judgment of God Robert Shank whom
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I quoted before on the subject of election from an Arminian point of view
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Has a good passage in his book elect in the Sun on page 49 that I thought
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I would read to you that bear out this contrast between corporate security, but an individual contingent sort of security
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He says the possibility of apostasy posits the corporate nature of the election the scriptures bear witness to actual instances of apostasy and Abound with solemn warnings against the peril which contrary to the assumptions of some is real rather than hypothetical
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Consider the following and then here he quotes a couple of verses God's eternal purpose in grace
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Ephesians 1 4 He chose us in Christ that we should be
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Holy and blameless before him Ephesians 1 4 he chose us in Christ that we should be holy and blameless before him
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Colossians 1 22 Now I just stopped right there See in the
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Arminian way of thinking it Then becomes our holiness and our blamelessness and our faithfulness and persevering and holiness and blamelessness which determines whether his
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Purpose will be accomplished. That's man -centered salvation. That's that's Romanism. That's Arminianism That's that's that's that kind of perspective.
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They are all united together in that and I've said many many times before this is this is the difference between reading the
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Bible in a God -centered fashion or in a man -centered fashion When I look at Ephesians 1 4
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It's already talked about blessing God for what he's done Just as he chose us in him before the foundation world that we would be holy and blameless before him.
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That's his purpose That's what he is accomplishing. That's why he is to be glorified.
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That's why he is to be praised Not oh, this is what he'd like to do if We will cooperate and In so many people's lives, there's no cooperation
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Therefore God's purpose for them is not fulfilled Did I miss something in that you probably did cuz you've been talking
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Well, and when he quoted that verse, did I did I miss when he said before the foundation of the world?
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I? Because it he never said it he quoted it just as he chose us in him that we should be holy and blameless
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Eternal purpose in grace say visions 1 4 He chose us in Christ that we should be
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Holy and blameless before him Ephesians 1 4 he chose us in Christ that we should be holy and blameless
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Before him. Well, he's quoting from Shank and I don't have I Don't think I have shank in here
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As soon as I said that I had to go look because I do have a number And hey look at that page 49
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Look at that not even a dot dot dot I News to me page 49
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God's for a purpose and grace visions 1 4 he chose us in Christ that we should be how you sky anomalous before him
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Nothing about it. There's there's no dot dot dot nothing along that all now all he's doing here is
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Saying that God's purpose is that we should be holy and blameless and he's going through the places We're holy and blameless is but he left out the before the foundation of the world.
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Yes, it is. There it is I'm holding it in my little hand there elect in the Sun. They study the doctrine of Election, so very interesting.
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Okay. All right. Let me get one more in here because we're almost out of time They finish up and so people are asking questions and a
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Catholic ask the questions of like that Here's here's where the Calvinist comes in and you can't hear the questions, but you can hear his response which is right here
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Sure. I mean that is the Calvinistic view and I think that and you're certainly right to Bob and saying that there were undoubtedly mixed groups in these churches that there were some who were just seekers and not real believers or maybe even there were hypocrites who knows
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I Think the question is going to be and I'm not going to try to settle this for you
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But the question is going to be these Descriptions that they give of someone who has been enlightened
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Tasted the heavenly gift come to the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Can those be?
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Descriptions of these pseudo Christians that you mentioned that that's going to be the issue I think so he had gone through the text in Hebrews, which
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I'm going through. I've already gone through a number of them In preaching at the Phoenix Reform Baptist Church, and we're trying to get those recorded and posted
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I didn't do that this last weekend because there was just no way that I was be able to handle Hebrews 4 with the short period of preparation that I had so we did
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John 10 and some folks really liked especially the evening service, but he goes through those and his assertion is the descriptions, especially in Hebrews 6 cannot be of unbelievers they have to be of true believers who have truly been a part of Christ and My assertion is just the opposite these are mixed audiences
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Bob the Calvinist Lord bless you Bob press on don't know how you survive it, but Bob the
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Calvinist is right that these descriptions do not Indicate individuals it does not say, but you were joined to Christ you were one of his sheep
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You died with Christ None of that language is used it is language that would refer to people who in the congregation
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Would experience the blessings that one gets when you are in the congregation When you are enlightened about God's purposes
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And you you see the gifts of the Holy Spirit and operation around you and you've tasted of the good
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Gifts of the age to come that's that's what happens when someone is exposed
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To the gospel message in the fellowship of the church But the text in Hebrews 6 itself says, but we are convinced of better things
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How can they be better things if those are the things that actually come to salvation no one's ever been Lance that for me And there you see and I think that was let's see maybe 45 seconds out of the entire
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Class discussion where the truth of the matter was actually raised for a moment and Then very quickly forgotten and moved on from there but Pray for Bob the
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Calvinist wherever Bob the Calvinist is I guess in Georgia someplace Who everyone's well you know gets gets to say something right there and help help folks out, but?
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He's he's fighting a losing battle, so what is all this about how many times?
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I said it theology matters when the foundation when you start with the wrong foundation
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You know I I'm thankful that William Lane Craig says we're justified by faith alone But then when you start unpacking when you start taking that apart he cannot affirm that as a clear
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Affirmation that says that view therefore is wrong and that view therefore is wrong. Here's what the gospel is
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It's well, you know I think this is you know a little more biblical type thing and That's just not how the
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Apostles did it well We will continue on with our never -ending quest to draw the dividing line between truth and error
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